Interview with Kit Carson Elswick, November 12, 1974

The following is an unrehearsed interview with Kit Carson Elswick for the University of Kentucky Library Fred M. Vinson Oral History Project. The interview was conducted by Terry L. Birdwhistell on November 12, 1974 in Louisa, Kentucky.

[An Interview with Kit Carson Elswick]

BIRDWHISTELL: It's ready to go.

ELSWICK: Well, I was bo--- I'm a native of this county. I was born the 21st of September, ninet--- eighteen and ninety-two, down in the northern part of the county, on Kentucky 3. And I -- my family and Fred Vinson's family have been friends for a long time. And that's the way I -- the way we got together. 'Course I went to -- I gr--- I graduated from high school here and went on to the university, went to university 19--- I bet 1914. And I graduated in '17 just -- the -- And I w--- I'd already registered with the draft and went on to the army. And I didn't get back 'til a couple of -- couple of years. When I came 00:01:00back, I started practicing law in Ashland. Opened an office down there, didn't do much practice [chuckle]. And there came a vacancy up here in the county attorney office and the Democrats selected me, and I was elected without electioneering any. Then I served two more terms that I was elected on my own.

BIRDWHISTELL: I see.

ELSWICK: And during that -- at that time there was no -- there was no available office in the courthouse, the old courthouse for the county attorney. And at that time Fred Vinson was Commonwealth attorney of this district, which was composed of, well, Carter and Elliott and Lawrence County. And he invited me to share offices with him. It's where Judge [?] Adams' offices are now, called Cane 00:02:00Building. At that time it was over at the Second National Bank. And from that we just -- we just practiced some cases together. I -- He was instrumental in my getting the appointment to the Department of Justice in 1934.

BIRDWHISTELL: I see.

ELSWICK: And from that I went into the United States Attorney's office and I was in Lexington -- well, I was in the United States Attorney's office almost twenty years, little over twenty years. I retired in nineteen and fifty-five, the last day of March. I served -- Of course the last two or three years I served I served under a Republican administration and was a Democrat. Of course Fred was always pretty active in the Democratic party and I was along with him. He -- he 00:03:00was about three years older than me and I -- I presume that the thing that threw us together more than anything else was the long friendship of our families.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, how young were you a--- you two when you first got together and first became friends? Were you friends before you went off to college, this kind of thing?

ELSWICK: I knew him. But I -- we weren't close friends [then ?]. We didn't get to be close friends until -- See, he ran for -- he ran for Commonwealth attorney and only served a few months 'til they -- the Democratic executive committee of this congressional district, which was the old ninth, they gave him the nomination for Congress, and he went on to Congress.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

ELSWICK: But he stayed here ab--- he had the office here about five years, I think, before he finally went to Ashland. And I was -- Well, I was a little old 00:04:00when I get through the university, I got a little late start. But I was -- I was about twenty-seven or twenty-eight and I think he's about two or -- he was t--- almost three years older than me.

BIRDWHISTELL: And he went to school outside of --

ELSWICK: He went to --

BIRDWHISTELL: -- Louisa here at the Kentucky Normal --

ELSWICK: Yeah, it's --

BIRDWHISTELL: -- School, is that --

ELSWICK: -- where they -- where they -- where the Louisa High School is now, --

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right?

ELSWICK: -- [that was the Normal College ?].

BIRDWHISTELL: Now, did you know him when he was going to school out --

ELSWICK: Yes.

BIRDWHISTELL: -- there? Oh.

ELSWICK: Yes.

BIRDWHISTELL: Were there any anecdotes about him during that period of his life, or what he was like then, or your impressions of him at that early age?

ELSWICK: He liked to [argue ?].

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right?

ELSWICK: Yeah. And he liked -- he -- he was a great baseball player, you know. He was -- he was a pretty hard shortstop.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right. Was he pretty well known around here at -- at that time, as a good baseball player?

ELSWICK: Yes, he was. And he -- he was also known as a -- a troublemaker at a 00:05:00baseball game, because he never agreed with the umpire.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right? [Chuckles]

ELSWICK: I played against him a few times. We had a country team down there in the East Fork County Park, and we play against him a few time. He was a pretty good player. You know, he was a -- he was invited to -- I -- I don't know, did they give him a try-out or whether they actually gave him a job with the St. Louis Browns.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right?

ELSWICK: And he finally refused it and came back and he ran for Commonwealth attorney. At that time the district was pretty strongly Republican, with Carter County in it, and Lawrence County at that time was a little Republican. Elliott County was Democratic, [that saved him ?]. And he was just -- he was elected and, of course, as I said, he j--- he didn't serve short time until he got this 00:06:00nomination, and was elected to Congress.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right. Well, if I could just ask you a couple more questions about when he was growing up. You said he liked to argue. Did he like to argue about politics, was it obvious that he was interested in politics at that time?

ELSWICK: He was. He was born in the jail here, and his daddy was jailer at the time, which was a political office.

BIRDWHISTELL: So he was -- Did he seem like a very ambitious person at the time or did -- did that ever occur to you?

ELSWICK: No, he --

BIRDWHISTELL: [inaudible]

ELSWICK: -- was always ambitious.

BIRDWHISTELL: Always ambitious.

ELSWICK: Always ambitious. He was always tr--- he was always striving to be -- he was always striving for perfection.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right?

ELSWICK: Yeah, he [was] pretty much a perfectionist.

BIRDWHISTELL: You think that's why he got into the arguments on --

ELSWICK: Yeah, that's it.

BIRDWHISTELL: -- the baseball diamond [chuckle] --

ELSWICK: That was it.

BIRDWHISTELL: -- all the time?

ELSWICK: Yeah. Oh, hell, they weren't serious arguments, but he just -- I think you'd call them raspberries now [chuckle--Birdwhistell] for the umpire.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

ELSWICK: But he had a reputation for disagreeing with the re--- umpire.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, you mentioned your families were very close. Seems like in later years Mr. Vinson always mentioned his mother quite a bit. Do you know what type of influence his parents played in his life?

ELSWICK: I expect that his mother had more influence than anyone else. Jim, his father, was a come -- come-easy, go-easy sort of a fellow.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right?

ELSWICK: Good substantial citizen, but he never took things too seriously. Now, Mrs. Vinson was -- she was a Ferguson, and she was pretty strict. And he -- he depended on his mother quite a bit.

BIRDWHISTELL: [I see ?]. Well, of course, Louisa is a -- a small town, in qui--- in a sort of a rural environment, do you think this had a deep impression -- 00:08:00made a deep impression on him as a young -- young man?

ELSWICK: Well, it --

BIRDWHISTELL: [Sort of ?] --

ELSWICK: It -- it --

BIRDWHISTELL: Maybe in later years?

ELSWICK: It might -- it might have -- it -- I expect it did. Because he -- he -- he -- he was a -- he had a -- an ability or a knack or -- to remembering people's names.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right?

ELSWICK: Why, he'd know -- he'd -- he'd know people names from -- I'd never think about knowing [chuckle--Birdwhistell]. Well, I'd drive over the state quite a little with -- with him and it -- it would be surprised how many people in the state he called by their first name. He had -- he had a great ability to just -- to associate a man -- a person's features with his name, --

BIRDWHISTELL: I see.

ELSWICK: -- which I haven't had -- I never did have that ability.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, after attending school here in Louisa, then he went to 00:09:00Centre College --

ELSWICK: Centre College.

BIRDWHISTELL: -- and finished his college years, and then got his law degree. Did you know him during those years at all? Did you have any contact with him?

ELSWICK: I -- I knew him, but I wasn't too intimately acquainted with him then. Actually I didn't -- we didn't became intimately acquainted, and actually our strong friendship didn't begin until he was -- well, his last months of being -- as Commonwealth's attorney, and I was county attorney. I'd been elected county attorney.

BIRDWHISTELL: So then he came back to Louisa here and set up a law practice. Was he well received, do you think, by the people and was -- was he a fairly successful lawyer?

ELSWICK: He was a good lawyer.

BIRDWHISTELL: [And ?] -- when he first began?

ELSWICK: Yeah, and he came -- I think his first public office was city attorney. It was -- in Louisa. And I know he -- he was a good mathematician and he -- he 00:10:00kept a -- kept a lot of books for professional people around here. My father-in-law, Dr. T. D. Burgess, he had a -- audited his books all the time for him.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right?

ELSWICK: Of course that was before -- that was ever was father-in-law, but [chuckle--Birdwhistell] I know he did.

BIRDWHISTELL: So he -- he early showed this tendency toward mathematics and what would later show up in his congressional period, I think, in terms in taxes and --

ELSWICK: Yes, I think that had a lot to do with the fact that he was -- he was -- he was very deep student of taxation. I think at that time he was just about the tex--- the tax expert in Congress. I think he was given -- I think he -- they -- they acknowledged him to be.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right. Well, when he first came back here to -- and set up his law 00:11:00practice, I think he ventured into some business -- made some business ventures, didn't he, outside of law? Do you know about any of these?

ELSWICK: I -- I never associated with him. I think he had a few, but I -- they weren't -- they don't amount to much. I -- I actually don't know -- I don't recall just exactly what they were, but he had -- he did have a few, but I don't know what they were. I just don't remember.

BIRDWHISTELL: And then you mentioned earlier that you began sharing an office, over in the courthouse.

ELSWICK: No, we didn't have any office in the courthouse, --

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh, I --

ELSWICK: -- [across the ?] street.

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh. Across the street from the courthouse, right?

ELSWICK: Yeah. It's on -- on the corner of Main Cross and Main [Street]. As I was saying, the Second National Bank building, but the Second National Bank consolidated with this bank, the First National, in later years. Of course, that's after he'd gone to Ashland. And we had those offices. And I just shared 00:12:00them with him. They -- We had no partnership arrangement or anything, but we did practice cases [together]. Not an awful lot, but several cases together. And he'd call me -- that's after he was in Congress, why he'd call me any time at night or day, say, "Let's go someplace." He'd want to go someplace and I'd -- of course I'd drive him. He didn't drive.

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh, is that right?

ELSWICK: No.

BIRDWHISTELL: So is there any reason --

ELSWICK: I can't -- I never did understand why.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did you ever ask him -- you ne--- did you ever ask him about it?

ELSWICK: I think I've joshed him around about not driving, but I -- I think he just didn't want to. I -- I actually don't know.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right?

ELSWICK: That was -- that was one of -- kind of a puzzle to me, why he didn't. Oh, I presume that he could drive, but he just didn't do it. I know one -- one evening he had to go to something, so got a call go to west Kentucky. Why I -- I 00:13:00don't know, he didn't tell me. And he called me about seven o'clock Sunday afternoon, Sunday evening and wanted to know if I can take him to west Kentucky. And I said, "How far are we gonna get tonight?" Said, "Don't know." But we got in a storm down here about Mount Sterling and we finally wound up in the Phoenix Hotel at [chuckle] -- at Lexington, [that very ?] night. And went on to -- to Louisville, and he met the people that was he was going to west Kentucky to see and had a conference with them there and we didn't go any farther. We spent a night or two in Louisville. And then I know one time we -- he was -- he -- he was a life member of the American Legion in our post here. He and I represented the post and went to state convention over in Danville. I'm trying to think who was -- was elected commander that year. I know he was for him. Somebody from 00:14:00Lexington. And I -- I was driving back from Louisville and my car broke down. And we delayed about half a day, I think it blew a gasket or something. We finally got in there pretty late, but he -- he took a very active part in -- in Legion affairs. And he was a -- In -- in Congress, he was always ready to reply to any of his constituents who wanted to write him a letter or ask him for help or anything. He -- he was a stickler for honesty, but I -- actually his reli--- I don't know what religious -- I don't know his -- I don't know his actually 00:15:00religious belief.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right?

ELSWICK: I think it was Christian Scientist.

BIRDWHISTELL: You know, I don't know -- I'm not familiar with that, either. I was thinking about that driving down here today. I was gonna you about that. But I can't --

ELSWICK: Of course his folks were Methodist. I know we -- occasionally we went -- we -- to the Louisa Methodist Church here, over on the corner of the public square. But I -- I -- I never did know his conviction. He was a -- he -- he -- he was a believer, all right. He believed in God and -- and he pretty well worshipped the Bible, but actually I don't know what his -- whether he had any or not, whether he r--- really had any denominational beliefs, except that he was a Christian.

BIRDWHISTELL: I see. All right. I was gonna ask you, the cir--- of the 00:16:00circumstances surrounding when Mr. Vinson first went to Congress, when Governor [William J.] Fields -- when Mr. Fields became governor and gave up his seat and --

ELSWICK: That's right.

BIRDWHISTELL: -- and -- and Mr. Vinson was chosen, I suppose, by -- h--- What were the circumstances where he -- he took over the seat?

ELSWICK: Well, there come a vacancy and under the law, and it's still a law now, where they -- where a vacancy is created after a primary, the executive committee of that county or that district can have a -- a meeting and they fill the vacancy with -- by nominating whoever they choose. And each county has one vote. At that time, I think we had -- You know, I wasn't down at the Mount Ster--- they had -- they -- He got the nomination in Mount Sterling and -- but I 00:17:00wasn't down there. I don't know why I didn't go. I got -- We got it -- I got -- been elected county attorney back, and of course he and -- I think he was elected Commonwealth attorney about the same time. As usual, I know all -- all -- all Democratic conventions, back -- they -- of a state and district, yeah, I -- I always -- always went as a delegate from this county. And he and I always shared quarters together at the hot--- at the convention and worked together for whoever we was for. And we always took sides, too. We -- [Chuckle--Birdwhistell] And he liked -- he liked a good scrap like that. He -- he was energetic, the 00:18:00most energetic fellow I ever saw, pretty near, as he was always ready to go. And I know he always admired people for their loyalty and for -- he was actually a believer in the right sort of a life. And he admired people for standing up for what they held was right. He did -- If they dis--- if disagreed with him and his belief, he didn't -- he give them that right, the same right he had -- having his own idea about things.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right. Well, did he -- did he -- was he really interested in becoming a congressman at the time that -- that he was -- he first went to Congress and replaced Governor Fields?

ELSWICK: Well, he didn't have time to -- it -- this broke all at once.

BIRDWHISTELL: So he just was kind of thrown into it, --

ELSWICK: Just --

BIRDWHISTELL: -- is that --

ELSWICK: -- [tries to ?] -- just -- Actually, kindly thrown into it. Oh, he had opposition down there, but -- I wasn't there, but I know that he -- Of course, he had to get a majority of the counties or he wouldn't -- I mean, the representatives from the majorities of the counties or he wouldn't have got the nomination. He -- I -- I recall the Al Smith presidential campaign. He talked to me, said, "I'm gonna get beat in this thing," and he said, "I can't afford to let the Democratic party down." He said, "They tell me if I'll turn loose from -- tear loose from Al Smith, why, I'll save a lot of votes. But," said, "I'm not gonna do it." Said, "I'm a Democrat and I believe in the principle of the Democratic party, and I'm just gonna sink or swim with the ship." And he went down with it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

ELSWICK: That was the only time he got beat.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right, that was one of the questions I was gonna ask you later is why -- why did he stick with Al Smith an -- an unpopular candidate, especially 00:20:00among his own constituents here in eastern Kentucky? Was it -- was it because of party loyalty you think or was --?

ELSWICK: He was a great believer in the principles of Democratic party.

BIRDWHISTELL: And so he wanted to support the --

ELSWICK: He --

BIRDWHISTELL: -- nominee.

ELSWICK: Well, he d---

BIRDWHISTELL: [Inaudible]

ELSWICK: -- as I said, he had a great -- I don't know, he -- he thought a lot about par--- about loyalty and, of course, party loyalty was one of the things that he believed in.

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm. Well, do you -- do you think he was surprised by his own defeat then, or -- or not?

ELSWICK: No, he told me, looked like he was gonna --

BIRDWHISTELL: But he -- he -- he saw it coming, then.

ELSWICK: Yeah. Yeah. I know he'd had a -- he had a opponent for years and years from down at Morehead, I've forgotten who he was now. He p--- published a paper down there. And by George, that year the Republicans didn't nominate him, they nominated this other boy down here. And the only time that they had a chance of 00:21:00beating Fred [chuckle], why this man from Morehead wasn't gonna get it. I've forgotten what his name was. Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, do you think the -- just the unpopularity of Al Smith then was the cause of it?

ELSWICK: That was the cause of it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Were there any local issues that -- that --

ELSWICK: None.

BIRDWHISTELL: -- contributed to his defeat?

ELSWICK: No.

BIRDWHISTELL: Because I know that year he didn't even carry Lawrence County, I don't believe, in the election. That he lost it by about sixty votes or so?

ELSWICK: Well, [you know it was ?] religion that entered into that.

BIRDWHISTELL: The prohibition issue, I suppose.

ELSWICK: No, no. Catholicism.

BIRDWHISTELL: Catholicism.

ELSWICK: Al Smith was a Catholic.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right. Right.

ELSWICK: That -- and it -- this -- this -- this Bible-quoting section of the state, you know, is pretty strong Protestants and they -- they w--- they thought that to get a Catholic in the presidency would just ruin everything. And that's -- that was the issue. That's what he went down -- he -- [went down in defeat 00:22:00over ?].

BIRDWHISTELL: Some people have mentioned the fact, too, that Al Smith, if he had been elected, was going to repeal --

ELSWICK: Prohibition law?

BIRDWHISTELL: -- prohibition and that in eastern Kentucky people like to drink the moonshine but don't want to legalize the liquor.

ELSWICK: I doubt if that had anything to do with it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, what was -- what was Congressman Vinson's stand on prohibition at this time, do you think?

ELSWICK: He was -- he was -- at that time, he was a teetotaler. I know [chuckle] -- I know when we were -- we was driving to Lexington that Sunday night, and we got in this storm, and he said, I -- "We could put up here at Mount Sterling, but," said, "I believe I can get you a better pint of liquor over at -- at Lexington." That's why we was going, because at that time I drank some. And he got it, too. He -- After we got over there, why --

BIRDWHISTELL: But he didn't drink any at --

ELSWICK: No, --

BIRDWHISTELL: -- that time?

ELSWICK: -- he didn't drink. That -- At one state convention, he had a -- a very 00:23:00strong fight over something or another at -- and he was up practically all night. I know he knocked the -- he had a fight with some fellow by the name of [?] Steel, or -- I don't think they came to blows, but he came down through the lobby of the Phoenix Hotel there with his -- his shirt sleeves, his sleeves rolled up, and I saw there was something wrong, and I luckily -- but I -- I [went to] overtake him as he went to the door. I said, "Where you going to?" He said, "[Did you -- ?] did you see that fellow, Steel?" I said, "No, I didn't see him. I didn't -- I didn't notice him, Fred." "Well, that's the fellow I'm a-looking [for ?]." And I saw that he was badly agitated, so I argued with him -- didn't have to argue, I just reasoned with him. I said, "I wouldn't pay no attention to those fellows." And -- but now that -- that night -- I mean that -- later that evening he called my room and I was sharing a room with James Quinn 00:24:00Lacky here, we call "Bugg" Lacky, he was one of the -- well, later a commander of the American Legion, state commander. And he called up there and wanted to know if we had any liquor. And I didn't answer the phone, Lacky answered the phone. And he said, "[I wonder why ?] in the world did he want liquor?" "He wants a drink," I said. "He don't drink any." "Well, he -- he wants a drink now." Well, there -- we got some over there. And [we took a drink up to his room], and that's the first time I ever saw him take a drink. And I never did see him take but very few after that.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right?

ELSWICK: I think -- I think he got to socially drinking around Washington some, but very -- I think a very limited degree. Because he didn't -- he -- he -- he didn't -- I don't think he was much of an advocate of -- of liquor especially.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, if we could go back for just a minute, there's a few 00:25:00questions I want to ask you about Governor Fields and his relationship with Mr. Vinson. It seems like when Mr. Vinson first took his seat in Congress that they were very close politically and personally. In their correspondence they seemed like they were very close friends. Were they --

ELSWICK: They were --

BIRDWHISTELL: -- [inaudible]?

ELSWICK: -- very close friends and their families were.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right?

ELSWICK: Yeah. And especially his -- Roberta, his wi--- his wife's family, Mr. Robert Dixon. Mr. Robert Dixon at one time was pretty strong in politics here and Bill Fields was in Congress, was -- relied on him considerably.

BIRDWHISTELL: I see.

ELSWICK: And, [I know in one ?] campaign here who had something going that was when he was in Con--- Congress. And I -- and oh, I went from here out -- he and Mr. Dixon and I went from here to Blaine where he made a speech. And I forgot who he made it for now. Democratic party. That was Bill Fields. But they were 00:26:00pretty close. But I think in after years, they kindly went opposite ways or something. I don't -- I'm not so sure about that.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, later Governor Fields came back and ran against --

ELSWICK: Ran against him.

BIRDWHISTELL: -- Vinson. Now, it -- apparently the -- things got fairly bitter in these campaigns, is that right? When -- when Fields came back and challenged Vinson to -- to his seat? In the [early ?] --

ELSWICK: Yeah, we -- we had two factions of the Democratic party of that time. It was call--- Well, I think it was a [John] Beckham, somebody, and [Augustus] Stanley['s crowd]. Pretty strong against each other. And Fred and Mr. Dixon, and I think Bill Fields at that time, was in the Stanley group. And [inaudible] then 00:27:00I think he thought that when -- when Bill Fields went over to the other side in this faction, that that's what caused it.

BIRDWHISTELL: So, I -- I suppose then since they were in two different factions, it wasn't so odd that they would be running against each other again down here for con--- congressional seat.

ELSWICK: I don't think it was -- had much to do with any personal animosity they had for each other.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, did they remain friends outside of politics then, even when Fields challenged him for his seat? Were they still compatible personally, you know, or -- or did this make --

ELSWICK: This -- this -- this --

BIRDWHISTELL: -- Mr. Vinson angry?

ELSWICK: -- this -- I think that race against Fred that kindly got -- concluded their friendship, I mean close friendship. They were friends, but -- Because in 00:28:00politics, you know, there's a man down in Lexington, you know, said politics was damnedest in Kentucky and it was pretty -- pretty -- pretty much so here in eastern Kentucky. And Miss Mill--- Mis--- old Judge [?] Milligan. And by the way, his -- his daughter worked with me in the United States Attorney's Office, Katie -- BIRDWHISTELL: Oh, is that right?

ELSWICK: -- Katherine.

BIRDWHISTELL: I don't want to jump around too much in this, --

ELSWICK: Go 'head, I don't --

BIRDWHISTELL: -- but [inaudible] you --

ELSWICK: I -- I don't -- I'm not --

BIRDWHISTELL: No, I -- my questions are kind of jumping around, but you're bringing up some interesting points. The fact that Robert Vinson's -- Mr. Vinson's wife, --

ELSWICK: Roberta.

BIRDWHISTELL: -- her father was active in politics around here. Now --

ELSWICK: Yeah, Mr. Robert Dixon.

BIRDWHISTELL: -- was he -- was he -- did he and Mr. Vinson become very close?

ELSWICK: Yeah. Yes, --

BIRDWHISTELL: [Inaudible] --

ELSWICK: -- they were.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, how long was -- was he associated in -- in Mr. Vinson's political career? Were they -- did he help him campaign, or would they campaign 00:29:00together and --?

ELSWICK: Well, I don't think that Mr. Dixon campaigned much except here in Lawrence County.

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm. But he was actively --

ELSWICK: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: -- supporting his son-in-law.

ELSWICK: But he was -- he was -- he was into -- he was up in years, and he finally just, you know, got too old.

BIRDWHISTELL: I see.

ELSWICK: They was always interested in the same -- they were always interested in the Democratic party [actually ?].

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, did you know Roberta then when you --

ELSWICK: Oh yes, I knew her.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did you -- let's see, you knew her when she was growing up here in --

ELSWICK: Yes, I knew --

BIRDWHISTELL: -- [inaudible] --

ELSWICK: -- her but I wasn't -- I wasn't well acquainted with her. And I was just kind of a country rube down here in the northern -- in the county and I didn't -- I didn't have many suits of clothes then, you know. So I [chuckle--Birdwhistell] --

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, what type of -- Do you think she pushed -- helped push Fred Vinson into politics, or was she active in politics, or did she want him to go 00:30:00into politics, this type of thing. You know, what influence was she really?

ELSWICK: Well, they were pretty close. Of course, a man and wife ought to be, but yeah, she was -- she was very agreeable with his participation in politics. And she was always much in--- very much interested in it, and she was always interested in the Democratic party, actually. I suppose she is today. I haven't seen Roberta in a long time. I don't believe I've seen her since Fred's funeral.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right?

ELSWICK: See the boys once in a while.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. Well, then if we can get back to the -- I guess to the -- when Mr. Vinson first went to Congress, what were his expectations, do you think? Did he talk with -- discuss with you after he knew he was getting ready to go and did he ever tell you like, "I'm -- I want to do this," or "I expect it to be like this," or anything like -- of that nature?

ELSWICK: I -- I got the idea from associating with him that his sole desire was 00:31:00to be a good congressman. And he worked at it, too. He was -- he was actually a good congressman. But I think he had some higher political aspirations. I know of one time when he was chief justice, he thought maybe that he might get the Democratic nomination for president.

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm. In '52 I [think it was ?].

ELSWICK: I know when I -- when I went home on Vinson Day here, I made the speech. He questioned me beforehand, he said "Don't bring up the fact that I might be a candidate for president." He said, "That -- I don't think that door is gonna open."

BIRDWHISTELL: You think he'd -- you think he wanted it [that year ?].

ELSWICK: I know he did. I know he did. He -- I'd -- We'd discussed this a time or two before that. I know when he came when he was just appointed and came over 00:32:00to Lexington, he -- I went down and -- But I was -- I was [in the] United States attorney's office there and he called over and told the -- [at the time ?] I believe -- I believe Jack Metcalf maybe was United States Attorney and I was Assistant and told him better send me over there. Of course at that time he was our boss, he was the head of the Department of Justice. So I went over and kindly he was appointment -- or [kind of ?] handled appointments for him. I know he -- people came to see him [and traveled a ?] long way in the early hours of the morning and I was the one that would let them in and take their name and so forth, 'cause I knew most of them. And he -- he actually -- he actually thought that he might get the Democratic nomination, to succeed [Harry S] Truman.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did he ever discuss with you why he didn't do that?

ELSWICK: No, he didn't. He just told me the door didn't open.

BIRDWHISTELL: Just the door didn't open. Okay. Good point. I don't think I've -- anyone's ever --

ELSWICK: And do you know that he -- you never found out that he was --

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, we knew -- we -- you know, it was in the press, of course, that he was being considered, you know, but I don't think anyone had ever said that he actually had, you know, really wanted to be president.

ELSWICK: What?

BIRDWHISTELL: You think he -- it's just in his nature to be -- want to move up in politics?

ELSWICK: That's it. He was a -- Well, he was a ambitious fellow. And he -- he actually -- he actually knew his ability and he was would have made a good president, in my opinion. I -- I've -- You know, I lived in Florida a year and traveling back from Florida and down there, I'd stop places and it -- they'd see the Kentucky license, said, "Well, did you know Fred Vinson?" I said, "Yes, by the way I'm from his home town." And a lot of old people down [there discussed 00:34:00him with me ?] and they thought that if he'd have been -- if he hadn't have died, that they wouldn't have had these -- all this trouble over segregated schools, over whether they would -- this bussing business. I don't -- They felt that they had a great loss when they lost Fred Vinson.

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm. I see. If we could -- if we can talk now a little bit about his campaigning here in -- for Congress, how would you describe his campaign style? You know, what techniques did he employ and kind of speaker?

ELSWICK: His ability to call fellows -- people by their first names.

BIRDWHISTELL: You think that was the basis of his --

ELSWICK: That was the basis of it. And he just went out in the grassroot and saw the voters. And he was very energetic about it, too. And he -- he -- he was a great organizer. He -- he wanted to organize right down to the precinct.

BIRDWHISTELL: Now, you worked very close with him in his campaigns, didn't you? 00:35:00Were you ever his campaign chairman in this --

ELSWICK: Well [chuckle], --

BIRDWHISTELL: Or did he have a -- a --

ELSWICK: I doubt if we had any here in Lawrence County, but I -- I've been -- many times I've been the campaign chairman here. Fact of the matter, I was chairman of the Democratic executive committee for -- except 'til they -- about -- 'til the Hatch Act came along. Even after I was with the Department of Justice. And the Hatch Act came, I had to quit. I -- I was chairman of the Democratic party here I guess for twent--- fifteen, twelve, let's see, ten or twelve years.

BIRDWHISTELL: You know, some people have mentioned, I think, that -- that whereas congressmen come back and then go through their entire district and speak quite a bit, that -- that Congressman Vinson would not put on a very energetic campaign, that he would make a few speeches and then put ads in the newspaper, but really wouldn't go out through the district. Is that -- was that 00:36:00your impression?

ELSWICK: No. Actually I -- my impression was that he kept in pretty close contact with the -- with the -- with the -- the campaign -- I mean the party organizations in each county. I think that's where his strength was.

BIRDWHISTELL: So, it'd j--- it'd be just the opposite in your opinion, that he w---

ELSWICK: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: -- he -- he mended his fences very well each year.

ELSWICK: Yes he did, I thought. But not -- I suppose you wouldn't say that it was in a broad sense. It was more on a -- on a sense of keeping a good, strong committee in each county, or organization each county. He had his -- of course, he had his enemies [as well as ?] anybody else [who is in ?] public life. And --

BIRDWHISTELL: You mentioned earlier about the large number of Republicans in the 00:37:00district. One source I -- I looked into mentioned the fact that Vinson tried to build up his relations with the Republicans in the district and tried to appeal to them for their vote. Is this one of his strategies of the campaigns, do you think, to appeal to the Republican vote?

ELSWICK: Of course he got -- he wanted a vote where we could get them. And, yes, I would think that he -- that he did appeal in his personal way to the Republican voters. He got a lot of them, I know. Because during some of that time that he was in Congress, the Democratic party was split pretty -- pretty -- pretty much. And they were pretty well divided in each one of the counties here in his district. He didn't have many here to contend with, he had a few. But it 00:38:00was the -- it was the factionalism in the -- in the party that caused him to have to kindly go up to the Republicans for help. Because either he was a -- he was a fellow that they -- you either liked or you didn't like, now that's the size of it.

BIRDWHISTELL: That's it.

ELSWICK: Yeah. 'Cause his friends would swear by him and do most anything for him, and his enemies would almost bushwhack him [in it ?]. He would -- I think what caused that was the fact that he had always -- he -- see, he always made up his mind on any issue. He didn't straddle the fence, he -- Like this Al cam--- Al Smith campaign. "Why," he said, "I -- I'm a Democrat and Al Smith's the Democratic nominee, and I'm going with -- I'm -- I'm just gonna sink with the ship. I'm gonna stay with it. And they ended -- ta--- tried to get me to say 00:39:00that I'm not for the Democratic party and me -- and me the Democratic nominee for Congress."

BIRDWHISTELL: That -- after he lost that election in 1928, he moved his law practice to Ashland, is -- is that correct?

ELSWICK: Yeah, he was a -- Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: Why did he move to Ashland, do you think? What was --

ELSWICK: Well, at that time, this -- Lawrence County was the last county on the southern end of his district and he was -- he got -- he -- he was trying to get down where the -- more the center of population, and Ashland was the -- the most populated town in his district.

BIRDWHISTELL: Were you with him the ni--- the night of the election returns on -- in -- in 1928 when --

ELSWICK: I was --

BIRDWHISTELL: -- [he was defeated ?]?

ELSWICK: -- here in '28, right up here in the office.

BIRDWHISTELL: With him?

ELSWICK: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: What was his reaction as the returns came in?

ELSWICK: Well, he -- I actually think he knew that he was beat before they started to come in.

BIRDWHISTELL: That right? Well, what -- did he make any remarks to you that stand out about -- about the night or the election?

ELSWICK: Well, I know we had a great -- a great crowd up here in the office. And his friends were around there pretty -- pretty low down in the dumps about it and he told them to -- one -- losing one election wasn't too much.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, you know, some people say that -- that he began his next campaign that night.

ELSWICK: He did.

BIRDWHISTELL: What was his strategy to -- to get re-elected in two more years?

ELSWICK: I -- I think it was organizing the di--- the counties.

BIRDWHISTELL: Just [doing everything ?] [inaudible].

ELSWICK: 'Cause I helped him do it a lot.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right?

ELSWICK: Yeah. He had -- he had four or five or six strong men in each county, 00:41:00you know, and -- and then with their organization, why, he --

BIRDWHISTELL: Do you recall any of the people that are still around that -- that -- that were very instrumental in -- in y'all's organization in other districts?

ELSWICK: Well, like the man in church that said he didn't have any enemies and they asked him why, and he said that he outlived them all. So I think we just about outlived them all.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right? One of the -- one of the interesting things in the -- in the V--- Vinson correspondence when he went to Congress was the fact that so many people write to him and say, "Cousin Fred," and --

ELSWICK: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: -- and, you know, "I'm your nephew," and this type of thing. Did he ever make any remarks to you about his family or -- or distant relatives writing and asking for favors while he was in Congress?

ELSWICK: Well, he was a great family man and he would call you "Cousin" clear down to the fourth or fifth generation.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right?

ELSWICK: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: And then the Vinson -- and the Vinson family always got together 00:42:00here for a reunion, I think, didn't they --

ELSWICK: Oh, they was --

BIRDWHISTELL: -- have a big --

ELSWICK: -- yeah, a strong -- strong -- strongly knit family.

BIRDWHISTELL: Are any just close relatives still living here in town that -- that would have known him very well?

ELSWICK: No, there're not. Charlie Vinson, Ed's boy, and Ed was just a cousin of Fred. He's here, he's county surveyor. But they just -- that -- that family just about gone.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, Mr. Vinson's brother became postmaster, he'd been --

ELSWICK: Bob was the postmaster.

BIRDWHISTELL: -- became post---

ELSWICK: Bob was postmaster.

BIRDWHISTELL: -- after Mr. Vinson went to Congress. Did anyone ever ask or raise any questions about the propriety of him becoming postmaster after he went to Congress? Was there any political talk raised about that?

ELSWICK: There might have been a little, but his brother Bob was a likeable sort of a person and he -- he -- his appointment was pretty much approved of by the local people. By the way, while I was in the u--- in the university, while I was at the -- at Lexington and my kids -- my two daughters were in university, I rented my house to Bob. Bob lived in my house while I --

BIRDWHISTELL: Was that right?

ELSWICK: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: In 1933, while Vinson was in Congress, he had a -- there was a economy bill came up in Congress and he had a sort of a falling-out with Robert Worth Bingham and -- and the [Louisville] Courier-Journal. Did he ever discuss this with you, about his attitude toward the Binghams or -- or the -- the paper itself?

ELSWICK: Well, you know, there was four congressmen that voted against that bill, and the Courier-Journal called them "assassins", you know. "Assassins". 00:44:00And that was Jack May and Virgil Chapman, and Fred, and a fellow by the name of [Finley] Hamilton. They'd -- they'd had to be elected at -- at the state-at-large, districts, and this Hamilton got in behind the old -- what was the old Eleventh then, what's the Fifth district now. And I know we had -- the state -- of -- the state American Legion convention at -- I believe it was at Paducah. And whoever was commander of the legion then invited these three [four] "assassins" to make speeches at the convention. I know they all came down there. I know --

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ELSWICK: -- they all came down there. Virgil and I were classmates at the university. And --

[Begin Tape #1, Side #2]

ELSWICK: -- Earle Clements. Well, Earle Clements was -- They were -- they were 00:45:00juniors when I was senior. But it w--- I -- we had formed quite a friendship at the university. But they came down there and make the speeches and they -- of course they made good ones, we thought. But they -- they -- he never did get -- quite get over that, he was -- about them called him "assassin", stabbing the president in the back by voting against something that -- that the president had put up.

BIRDWHISTELL: I know in one of his letters he referred to the Courier-Journal as the "Curious Journal".

ELSWICK: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: And then Bob -- Bill Fields wrote him back and -- and referred to Robert Worth Bingham as Robert "Worthless" Bingham. And I was wondering if this was kind of his attitude toward -- toward the Binghams and the Courier-Journal, and if he -- if this persisted in his career.

ELSWICK: Yes, it did persist. He had a -- he had strong likes and dislikes, and I know through his -- after that -- after that occurred, why there was never 00:46:00much love for the Courier-Journal and it -- and that outfit.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, what was his relationship with the press in general, like the -- the local newspapers here in eastern Kentucky? Did he get along with them fairly well?

ELSWICK: Oh, yes, even -- even the -- even the Republican papers were pretty strong for him, usually. I know the Ashland Independent is supposed to be independent, but Bill -- geez, [B. F.] Forgy was strong Republican and he was running the Independent then, and he always supported Fred. I know John Dedrick down there, just died here last -- this year, was a Republican committeeman for this district for years and he was -- he -- he and Fred were awful close. I don't know whether -- I don't know whether it was because they were both graduates of Centre or not, but anyway they were awful close. I -- I wouldn't 00:47:00doubt but that John Dedrick wasn't at least under -- was for him most of the time. Maybe not out in the open because he was active Republican party, but I think he -- I think he had pretty good relations with the Repub--- with the local papers.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, in 1932 the Democratic primary, you know, where you mentioned earlier the at-large --

ELSWICK: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: -- seats that they had that year. John Young Brown[, Sr.], who was not on the approved slate, won an at-large seat in Congress. Later he and Vinson seemed to have some sharp differences on the -- on the House floor, I think.

ELSWICK: I --

BIRDWHISTELL: [Inaudible] --

ELSWICK: -- don't know what -- I never did know what that was.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, you did -- did you know what type of relationship they had 00:48:00in general or did Mr. Vinson ever mention to you anything about Congressman Brown?

ELSWICK: I don't think he ever -- I don't think he ever mentioned a relation with John Y., but I knew that the feeling was kindly strained between them. And I don't -- [I know when John was ?] making [his race for ?] state offices, we weren't for John [very long ?]. I remember I supported him one primary, I forgot which it was now, but they weren't just exactly in the same bed, you know.

BIRDWHISTELL: I just --

ELSWICK: I -- I don't know of -- I don't know why, except because -- except the two factions in the party. I -- But I never did think John Y. was too strong 00:49:00with the other -- opposite party. But I -- I -- I -- I've very little claim to John Y. Brown and I -- as -- as personal friends, I like John. And I -- In my opinion, he's one of the best trial lawyers in the country.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right? Well, how did Mr. Vinson get along with the rest of the Kentucky congressional delegation during the years he was in Congress? Was there any outstanding thing you remember, any differences, or any -- any of the ones he really got along with very well, or --?

ELSWICK: I think he got along with all of them. And I -- I don't think his -- I don't think his and John Y.'s differences was -- prevented them from being friendly. They just differed on opinion and on what they stood for. I mean, I don't -- I don't think they were always separated on those issues, [inaudible]. 00:50:00Of course, John was there just two years, you know.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

ELSWICK: No, he wasn't on the slate. I recall -- I forgot they wanted -- who -- who he beat out now.

BIRDWHISTELL: I don't recall.

ELSWICK: I know Jack May up here led the ticket, from Floyd County. And I think Fred was second. Let's see the -- I guess we had -- I believe we had eleven congressmen. No, nine. No, we had eleven. I believe we had eleven congressmen.

BIRDWHISTELL: At one time I think you're right.

ELSWICK: Yeah, I know we did, because we had the -- our district then was the ninth. And the old fifth down there was the eleventh. That was the -- that was the stronghold for the Republican party. Of course it still is today.

BIRDWHISTELL: When Mr. Vinson first went to Congress he -- his seniority wasn't 00:51:00too high and so he didn't get very many good committees, but later he seemed to really get along with the -- with the Democratic congressmen up there.

ELSWICK: Well, he -- he got to be a power. He got on the Ways and Means Committee.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right. Right.

ELSWICK: And he was the tax man on that Ways and Means Committee, because I -- I visited Washington and I'd visit with him, and I'd go to Congress with him. And I knew quite a few of the congressmen in Kentucky, and the senators.

BIRDWHISTELL: What congressmen up there was he closest to? [Of course ?], the Texas connection with Sam Rayburn and -- and Marvin Jones, very close friends of his.

ELSWICK: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did he ever mention any others or were you ever with him with other congressmen up there?

ELSWICK: No, I -- I -- I don't recall. I know he did, but I just don't -- At eighty-two you don't remember too well. [Chuckle--Birdwhistell] If you'd have been -- we'd had this interview four or five years ago, maybe I could told you a 00:52:00little something another.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right. Well, we've -- a lot of good information here anyway. Vinson broke with F.D.R. [Franklin D. Roosevelt] I think only twice during his entire career, once on the Economy Bill of 1933 --

ELSWICK: That's the one -- that's the one --

BIRDWHISTELL: -- and once on the --

ELSWICK: -- where the Courier-Journal called him an "assassin".

BIRDWHISTELL: Right. And then once on Veteran Bonus Payment --

ELSWICK: That's right.

BIRDWHISTELL: -- of 1935. Would you consider him an ardent New Dealer while he was in Congress?

ELSWICK: I wouldn't -- He was just a ardent Democrat.

BIRDWHISTELL: Just a Democrat. Well, did he ever discuss with you his personal opinions toward F.D.R., whether he -- what type of leader --

ELSWICK: He --

BIRDWHISTELL: -- or president --

ELSWICK: -- he -- he ad--- he ad--- he admired him and he thought he was -- he thought he was just -- he actually thought he was practically a savior of the country at that time.

BIRDWHISTELL: And of course he -- he supported the -- the famous Court-packing plan by Roosevelt. Did he ever discuss that with you, or reasons why --

ELSWICK: No, he never did. I -- I -- I -- I kindly questioned that. I didn't know. But I never did find out.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, in a general way then, how -- how well do you think Vinson represented this district in terms of projects, or -- or help to the district? Were there any specific things that you can recall that he did or --?

ELSWICK: I don't know of anything specific. I know they used to quarrel around here in Lawrence County and say that he'd been up there in Congress for so long and never done anything for Lawrence County. But of course he was always -- That wasn't true. There wasn't anything much you could do for Lawrence County back in those days.

BIRDWHISTELL: I think some people have mentioned the number of bridges that went up over the rivers around here. Wasn't there an extraordinary amount go up during the time he was in Congress, extraordinary amount?

ELSWICK: I -- I don't recall. I don't recall. I -- He was -- During the near -- 00:54:00New Deal years, he was on the New Deal team all right, but I think it was more because he was just a rock-ribbed Democrat than it was from advocating all the principles of -- of the New Deal.

BIRDWHISTELL: Of course, one of his big accomplishments was the social security legislation that he helped draw up. Was wondering if he ever discussed this with you, any motivation for really getting involved in this type of -- of legislation? Do you think any -- his background had anything to do with that?

ELSWICK: Well, I was always pretty strong for the underdog, you know. Yeah. He didn't like to see people suffer.

BIRDWHISTELL: One of the interesting things, in 1934 Jim Farley wrote a letter 00:55:00to the leading Democrats in this district asking them to support Vinson in that election. Do you recall that letter?

ELSWICK: Yeah, that didn't -- that didn't help any.

BIRDWHISTELL: That -- that didn't help?

ELSWICK: I don't think.

BIRDWHISTELL: It -- but it -- did it -- it didn't hurt any, I guess, did it?

ELSWICK: Was that -- That wasn't the -- that wasn't the Al Smith race, was it?

BIRDWHISTELL: No, this was a -- I think in 1934, when Farley wrote the letter just encouraging Democrats to support --

ELSWICK: Fred.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, right.

ELSWICK: But I know that -- I know he and Jim Farley were good friends.

BIRDWHISTELL: I was just wondering if this had a very big influence on -- on the election, or whether it was just --

ELSWICK: I don't think it had any influence on it. I don't think that Jim Farley would have had much influence on the voters on the district at that time, way it 00:56:00was composed. See, it's -- we're -- we're in the district now that's not -- don't have too many of the same counties that Fred had in his district. Well, the congressperson got -- he's got most of them back now, because Farley's got twenty or twenty-one counties, hasn't he?

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, quite a few. In -- in 1938, when Mr. Vinson was appointed to the Court of Appeals in Washington, people have tried to figure out why he took that appointment. Some people said because of the money, some people say because of the security of the job, and at least one person has said that it was because -- or at least one historian has concluded that it was because of politics at the time, about the whole thing about Senator [Marvel] Logan wanting to be appointed judge, but if he was appointed that -- that Governor [A. B. "Happy"] 00:57:00Chandler would become a senator and F.D.R. didn't want this to happen. Was this -- was this a -- a factor in his appointment, do you think?

ELSWICK: I -- I don't know. I was a little bit surprised when he accepted the appointment.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right? Why were you surprised?

ELSWICK: Well, I thought that he was a -- I thought r--- actually thought, it might have been just personal of me, I thought perhaps he had the eye -- his eye on -- on the governor's place down there, of the state. I never thought about him aspiring to the presidency, but he finally did, you know.

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm. Right. So you thought he would want to stay at least active in politics at some sense and not --

ELSWICK: That's -- that's --

BIRDWHISTELL: -- take himself out.

ELSWICK: I couldn't -- I couldn't understand why he wanted to take -- I called it "taking the veil" [chuckles]. Because he'd always enjoyed politics. He was -- there was no one that ever enjoyed a good fight better than Fred Vinson. And of 00:58:00course these political fights I'm speaking of.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

ELSWICK: And he -- he enjoyed them. He always liked to get into them.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did you ever ask him after he went on the bench, why -- why he'd made that decision, straight out?

ELSWICK: I don't believe I did. I know I -- I -- I know we -- he was coming to Lexington to make the speech there for the graduating class, and we met him out at the airport. And that's when I went back to the office and he called and told me to send me b--- better send me down there, that some of them were gonna get fired or something like [chuckles]. Of course he was just mostly joking.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

ELSWICK: And I -- I stayed with him there two or three days, day and night. And I was just -- the fact of the matter, I was kindly shocked that he accepted it. Oh, I glad he did, but couldn't quite understand why he would quit things that 00:59:00he had always enjoyed, and that was a good -- good political scrap, and put himself out of -- plumb out of the picture from a political standpoint.

BIRDWHISTELL: And so -- but you never -- never did find out really --

ELSWICK: But I never did find out.

BIRDWHISTELL: And he never volunteered the information I suppose. I -- I mean, he never did just say he -- you know, allude to it in any way, I guess.

ELSWICK: No, I -- I don't know. He might have.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, you know, your -- your talking about how you -- you -- he liked politics so much and you were surprised that he could get out of it. Did he actually drop politics when he went on the Court of Appeals, do you think? Was he actively involved in Kentucky politics after that?

ELSWICK: He [just ?] about took himself out of them.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right?

ELSWICK: Yes, sir. And that surprised me, too. Knowing the man like I knew, I knew he -- he was so -- He -- he so enjoyed these political campaigns and -- that I -- I was a little -- I was surprised at it.

BIRDWHISTELL: You mentioned that you thought he might be wanting to run for the governorship sometime. Did he ever discuss that with you, wanting to be governor of Kentucky?

ELSWICK: I don't think he did it in that -- in those terms, but I -- I just assumed that from his actions and -- and the contacts he was making over the state.

BIRDWHISTELL: Now, he was very active in the early '30s in the political battles in the Democratic party at the state --

ELSWICK: Oh, oh, st---

BIRDWHISTELL: -- convention [inaudible].

ELSWICK: -- state convention, yeah. I know we went down there and we had -- we tried to beat Ha--- we tried to beat Happy Chandler for lieutenant governor with Jack Howard up here, and we rolled up our sleeves and got out on the f--- on the floor and we got a lot of votes changed.

BIRDWHISTELL: Why was -- why were you two opposing Happy Chandler at that time?

ELSWICK: I actually don't know. I'd known Happy a long time. I -- I just -- I 01:01:00don't know. I know l--- later years, why, he and Happy became pretty good friends.

BIRDWHISTELL: Mr. Vinson and --

ELSWICK: Yes.

BIRDWHISTELL: -- Mr. Chandler?

ELSWICK: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: And of course they -- all during the '30s, though, they were --

ELSWICK: Oh, oh yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: -- still on the outs, weren't they?

ELSWICK: Well, there were just two different factions of the party, that -- The Tom -- It got to be Tom Rhea faction and Happy Chandler faction, you know.

BIRDWHISTELL: Of course, then after Chandler became governor then in '35 and -- and then opposed Senator [Alben] Barkley in '38, I think Vinson --

ELSWICK: I managed Barkley's campaign here.

BIRDWHISTELL: In -- in '38? Is that right?

ELSWICK: When he run against Happy.

BIRDWHISTELL: What type of role did -- did Vinson play in that?

ELSWICK: I -- I -- I don't remember.

BIRDWHISTELL: Of course, I know he was active -- he vigorously supported Senator 01:02:00Barkley, of course.

ELSWICK: Oh, yes. I know he -- I was in Lexington and Barkley came down and make a speech. And they had some -- had the rooms there on the mezzanine floor at the Phoenix. And I was sitting up there in the lobby of the -- on the mezzanine, and as he came by says, "Just as soon as I get rid of these photographers, Kit," said, "I want to see you." So I went in and, well, Squire Williams, that's -- is the chief j--- I mean the one's on the Court of Appeals' daddy, Squire -- old Squire, Senior. He was sitting there, said, "Can I go in with you?" "Yeah." I -- "Come on." And I told him, "Senator, I said, "I'm bringing -- you know, Squire Williams here, I can bring him in here with me." I -- Well, he said, "I -- I haven't got much to say to you." Said, "You just manage my campaign up in Lawrence County." I said, "Why, I'm not a going to do any such thing." And he says, "Well, you sure are." [Chuckle--Birdwhistell] And I says, "Well now, Senator, you've go--- I -- I can pick some fellows up there that'll do you a 01:03:00better job than I can do." He says, "That -- that's exactly what Fred Vinson and Ben Williamson told me you'd say." [Chuckle--Birdwhistell] "But," says, "you know," said, "you're managing it." And I said, "Well, you're the one that's doing the running." "No," said, "we're both running." I said, "Well, I'll just manage it then under those conditions." And Barkley and I have been very good friends. Barkley'd come here and he have -- had to have lunch down in my home, you know.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right?

ELSWICK: Yeah. Barkley was very good friend of mine.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, I think when Governor Chandler was considering running against Barkley and he went -- he went to Washington and talked to F.D.R. and I think he had a meeting in Congressman Vinson's office. And that's what I was wondering about this -- the court appointment for -- for Mr. Vinson, the fact that this whole court appointment thing was in the air at the time and apparently F.D.R. was going to appoint some Kentuc--- one Kentuckian and he 01:04:00ended -- and --

ELSWICK: That's when he appointed him to the -- the Court of Appeals of --

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

ELSWICK: -- in the District.

BIRDWHISTELL: And instead of -- and instead of courting -- appointing Senator Logan and letting Chandler go to the Senate, he appointed Vinson. Do you think that's a valid -- that -- that case could be argued? Or --

ELSWICK: I -- I think you've got evidence on -- on your side, if you're on the -- on the affirmative side of that.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right?

ELSWICK: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: And, like you say, Vinson never even mentioned --

ELSWICK: No.

BIRDWHISTELL: -- anything like this to you.

ELSWICK: No.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, what type of contact did you have with Mr. Vinson from, say after he left to Congress to -- until his death in 1953? Were you still seeing him fairly regularly in Washington and when he visited?

ELSWICK: When he came home, why we would -- You know, he -- he was a -- he liked to play cards. And he come home, we'd always get up a card game someplace.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right?

ELSWICK: If it -- nothing else but just a friendly game sometimes, we'd get in a poker game. He -- he liked -- he liked -- he liked to play cards. But -- He -- he -- Of course, he never come to town what -- what he didn't contact me, and I'd -- sometimes I'd take him around and maybe visit with him, even go back to Ashland with him. I -- We -- we -- we still pretty -- we was still just close as ever, you know, all the time he was --

BIRDWHISTELL: Do you --

ELSWICK: -- chief justice.

BIRDWHISTELL: -- do you recall any anecdotes about him when he was moving through those federal offices so very quickly and during the war period? Did --

ELSWICK: No.

BIRDWHISTELL: -- you have much contact with him then in terms of --

ELSWICK: I had contact with him, but I don't know --

BIRDWHISTELL: Just --

ELSWICK: -- any anecdotes.

BIRDWHISTELL: More or less just personal contacts --

ELSWICK: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: -- with him, not --

ELSWICK: Yeah. He -- he wasn't -- he wasn't too much of a -- I don't know, he -- They didn't have too much to say about him. And I don't know, they didn't have many anecdotes.

BIRDWHISTELL: Do you have a few more minutes? I'll turn this over and we can talk for just a few more minutes.

ELSWICK: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: I'm afraid --

ELSWICK: I've got an appointment with a doctor at one o'clock.

BIRDWHISTELL: Okay.

[Interruption in taping]

BIRDWHISTELL: That is the key to it.

ELSWICK: That's the key to it. His -- the personal contact he kept with the voters through correspondence. And more from their inquiries of him than him just writing them.

BIRDWHISTELL: When -- when Mr. Vinson left the Court of Appeals -- or -- or went to the Court of Appeals in Washington, and then went to the different agencies in Washington, the secretary of the treasury, and then the chief justice, of 01:07:00course you remained personal friends with him and on a close social contact with him. Did you notice his personality changing or the type of man that he was? Did -- did he stay basically the same during all these years?

ELSWICK: I don't think he changed any. His loyalties and his beliefs were pretty -- pretty well fixed. I don't think they'd change.

BIRDWHISTELL: So he came back to Louisa then for a visit, it was still the same Fred Vinson that left Louisa, is that -- would that be your --

ELSWICK: Same -- same -- Yeah, he always --

BIRDWHISTELL: We -- we talked a little bit about when he became chief justice. Were you surprised when he was a--- appointed, --

ELSWICK: Yeah, --

BIRDWHISTELL: -- [chief -- chief ?] --

ELSWICK: -- I was in Lexington at the time he was appointed. I was at the United States Attorney's Office at Lexington. And we got -- [Let's see. He called me 01:08:00and said he'd ?] be on a certain flight. I know he went up -- As I recall -- I -- I don't recall exactly who the United States Attorney was at that time. But anyway it was -- I know Earl McGuffey was in the office then. He just got back from World War II. And he and I and Ben Kessinger, that's old Ben. You know, young Ben's a lawyer there in Lexington now. I think his father -- I think Ben -- old Ben's dead. And Claude Stephens, I believe, and we all four went out there in the car. And -- But they had someone out there from -- someone there in town had a l--- a car out -- bring him back to the hotel. I finally had reservations at the Phoenix. No, it wasn't, at the Lafayette. It was the 01:09:00Lafayette then, that -- that night, or that -- those two, three nights. And I -- I -- I was real surprised about it. That's the fact of it. I know they ordered me to active duty. I had a reserve commission when -- when the -- World War II broke out, and I had to report over to Fort Hayes, in Columbus. And, oh, I know Jack Metcalf was the United States Attorney then. He called me and says, "You've got to get home." And I said, "Well, why?" "Well, see you're handling all these ac--- land acquisitions here and got nobody else knows how to do it or able to do it, and it's -- we're in a hurry about getting this land." And he said, "When are you coming home?" I said, "Was you ever in the army, Jack?" He says, "No, I wasn't in the army." I say, "Well, you'd know if you had." [Laughter] But -- and Fred called me, wanted to know if -- if there's anything he wanted me to do, said, "You don't want -- you don't want to go into this thing." I said, "Yeah, 01:10:00just let it -- let nature take its course." And Joe Bates was congressman then and he called me, wanted to know if there was anything he could do about it. And I think -- Fred, seemed to me like told me that Jack Metcalf called him and asked him if he couldn't do something to get me down there.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right?

ELSWICK: I was handling the land acquisitions over there in Madison County, the Bluegrass Ordinance Depot, and also the -- well, the -- I think it was about completed, the Avon signal corps place. And I -- I prepared all those condemnation cases where we couldn't acquire the land by direct purchase. And [chuckle] I've forgot what was -- what Fred said to me. Wanted to know if there were any strings he could pull, or he'd like -- doing for me, or something, and I know I done told him, I said, "Well now, you just let thing -- let nature take its course. I'm in this thing. I had a reserve commission. I didn't keep it up 01:11:00like I should have, but they want me here, and I -- if they would dr--- if they think that I could do better here than I can over there in the United States Attorney's Office, I'll just stay." But they -- I stayed eleven days and they claimed that I had arthrit--- arthritic bone change in my right shoulder, they called -- claimed it was physically disqualifying and wanted me to waive it, and of course I wasn't gonna waive anything. They sent me home. And I went back to [chuckles] -- to the office. But I know Fred called me. But I --

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, you -- you were with him while he was a practicing lawyer here in -- here in Louisa, and you followed his career as he was a Court of Appeals judge. Do you think he was prepared to be chief justice, just in a -- in his legal background and his --

ELSWICK: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: -- and his --

ELSWICK: Yes, he was pretty deep. And he was a -- he was a pretty -- he was a 01:12:00deep student of the law. And likes -- like he's re--- he built that reputation for tax knowledge up there. Now, he didn't do that by -- just by accident. He actually worked at it. And I -- He was a good lawyer. Good one. He was a good lawyer and I think that he would have made a excellent chief justice.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, you mentioned earlier that you didn't believe some of the problems that we have had in recent years would have occurred quite the same way if -- if Chief Justice Vinson had have lived longer and had been able to be chief justice for more years than he was. Of course, he was a -- his court was challenged, I suppose, on their stand on segregation in later years, saying that they were very slow. Of course, the Sweatt v. Painter case that came down from his court was a direct precedent, I guess, for the --

ELSWICK: Yes.

BIRDWHISTELL: -- Brown v. Board of Education. Do you think Chief Justice Vinson would have moved in the same direction as the [Earl] Warren Court on desegregation?

ELSWICK: No, I don't. I don't believe that Vinson -- I -- I called it being radical. But I think he -- I think he was -- he did -- followed a more middle-of-the-road between the two factions of segregation and desegregation and way of bri--- way of bringing it about. I -- Well, I just know from what my -- well, knowing the man that he wouldn't have -- he -- he wouldn't have been extreme one way or the other. He was a great leveller.

BIRDWHISTELL: Of course, I think some students of history are going to look back 01:14:00on his congressional career where he took the strong stand against immigration back in the '20s and see this as a -- a precedent for his stand on civil liberties in -- in the Supreme Court. Do you think -- What brought about his stand in the '20s, if we can jump back for a minute to his wanting to prohibit immigration. Do you recall that issue and it's being a -- an important issue then?

ELSWICK: I don't recall it. I know that he was always -- he was always strong for his country, and I think that he thought that perhaps that these naturalized citizens maybe wasn't doing too much good.

BIRDWHISTELL: I know he got into quite a few arguments with Congressman [Fiorello] La Guardia up in --

ELSWICK: Oh, yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: -- New York about this --

ELSWICK: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: -- issue and --

ELSWICK: Well, he and --

BIRDWHISTELL: -- [immigration laws ?].

ELSWICK: La Guardia jumped onto I think on the floor of the House.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. I think they had some [chuckle] heated -- heated --

ELSWICK: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: -- debates up there a few times.

ELSWICK: Yeah. And Fred -- I know Fred told him, he said, "One thing about it, Mr. La Guardia, up in my part of the country we don't hide and shoot you from bushes [or slip up behind them and stab them in the back], we -- we meet you face to face."

BIRDWHISTELL: [Chuckle] Yeah.

ELSWICK: I -- Yeah, he -- he had a -- he had those words with La Guardia.

BIRDWHISTELL: But then to jump back then, you would say that -- that Mr. Vinson had a very fair outlook on -- on people and their rights and he wanted to -- he wanted justice, --

ELSWICK: He wanted --

BIRDWHISTELL: -- [inaudible] --

ELSWICK: -- he wan--- he wanted -- he wanted justice and -- but he -- he wanted -- he wanted all -- all the phases of the society to -- He di--- he didn't want -- he didn't want one to be predominant over another. He -- he was kind of a 01:16:00leveller. He -- he -- he liked -- he liked to see people all having their ideas kindly brought together and [compromised ?].

BIRDWHISTELL: Of course, that's the reputation he gained in Washington, too, as a great conciliator and one of the reasons, I suppose, he was picked for the Supreme Court.

ELSWICK: Yeah, that's the reason --

BIRDWHISTELL: [One of the ?] --

ELSWICK: -- I think -- that's the reason I think that they wouldn't have had some of these -- I think the trouble -- of course, I may be a little partial, you know. I've always been pretty much for America for Americans. Of course I always realize that we couldn't be an island within ourselves, but I think we've had a lot of influences from outside that perhaps didn't do us any good. I think we've got foreign -- what I call foreign influences got into bothering us.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, is there anything about Mr. Vinson that we haven't touched upon that you think would be important to the historical record?

ELSWICK: I couldn't -- I -- I don't recall any, Mr-- . Birdwhistell, isn't it?

BIRDWHISTELL: Yes, sir.

ELSWICK: No, I don't recall any, and I -- I'm satisfied I would have known. Like I said a while ago, I've just do--- I just don't recall things like I used to.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right. Well, I think it's been a very productive interview and I think some of the things we have down are -- can be very helpful to people that want to --

ELSWICK: Well, --

BIRDWHISTELL: -- look at political --

ELSWICK: -- he was --

BIRDWHISTELL: -- [situation ?].

ELSWICK: -- he was a great -- he was a great pacifier, but yet he was very ardent in his pursuit of his views. He was a great adversary [chuckle].

BIRDWHISTELL: Right. Well, thank you very much then.

ELSWICK: Well, [it was nice ?] seeing you. What --

[End of Interview]

Kit Carson Elswick by Terry Birdwhistell - Jean Schmeisser