Interview with William E. Crutcher, January 8, 1975



The following is an unrehearsed interview with W. E. Crutcher for the University of Kentucky Library Fred M. Vinson Oral History Project. The interview was conducted by Terry L. Birdwhistell on January 8, 1975 in Morehead, Kentucky.

[An Interview with W. E. Crutcher]

BIRDWHISTELL: If you want to give a little biographical information about yourself, we'd be glad to have that.

CRUTCHER: Well, I'm in the newspaper business as you know. I'm the president of the Kentucky Press Association and the owner of four community newspapers: The Morehead News, the Greenup News, the Grayson Journal-Inquirer, and the Olive Hill Times. And then we have some allied business such as the Counter Company with a division in Lexington and so forth. I was voted the Outstanding Newspaperman in Kentucky in 1972 and have been voted twice as Morehead's 00:01:00Outstanding Citizen. I don't say these boastingly, but you asked for a short biography and I'm trying to get this down. I was the second recipient of the Distinguished Service Award which is the highest honor that is conferred by the Board of Regents of Morehead State University. I've been very much interested in health care and Morehead has become a health care center. I'm the chairman of the Executive Committee of the Northeast Kentucky Hospital Foundation which actually spearheaded this as a health care area for this part of Kentucky. I have been active in politics all my life. I'm a Democrat. And I would guess that you could say that I'm a very strong Democrat. I have been closely associated and identified with many people who are prominent in Kentucky politics, such as 00:02:00Alben Barkley, and Governors Keen Johnson, Earle Clements, Lawrence Wetherby, A. B. "Happy" Chandler, Bert Combs, Ned Breathitt, Wendell Ford who has just gone to the Senate, and Julian Carroll, who has just been sworn in as governor. So I would say that I've had sort of a varied life and I just mention those things as my participation over a period of many years. But primarily I'm a newspaperman and a newspaperman in heart and soul and body. But I do like politics.

BIRDWHISTELL: Then Mr. Crutcher, I believe you've been jotting down some of your recollections of Mr. Vinson and it looks pretty thorough. If you want to go on 00:03:00and begin some of the things you recall about his life.

CRUTCHER: Well, I guess you would call me really Fred Vinson's office boy back in the days when he was a very young man and I was a growing young boy. I tried to think of how much salary I got and I don't remember. I do recall that I was always paid on Saturday and the Mr. Vinson always managed to tip me twenty-five or fifty cents which was then a pretty good tip back in those days. It's somewhat difficult to think back fifty years and some of the statements I make may disagree with the historical dates that perhaps you have. What I say is purely from memory and without any research. And I suppose I could perhaps talk too long. As a matter of fact, I could talk about Fred Vinson perhaps for hours 00:04:00because I think I knew him very well and was associated with him all of his lifetime, or at least his adult lifetime. Thinking back, I believe that I first knew Fred M. Vinson, the man whom I consider as the greatest person I've ever known in my lifetime, when he was a shortstop on the Louisa baseball team. I know that I was a young tow-headed boy at Louisa and had been given the nickname of "Snooks" and that nickname has persisted to a degree all of my lifetime. I do know that Fred Vinson and his lovely wife, whom I knew as a youth, when she was a young girl and as a young woman as Roberta Dixon, that was her maiden name, they always called me "Snooks". I don't think that Mr. Vinson ever called me any 00:05:00other name. Mr. Vinson played shortstop on the Louisa baseball team as I recall and that was one of the best semi-pro teams in Kentucky. And everybody in town and in the area turned out for the baseball games and Fred Vinson was one of the crowds' favorites. He was a great fielder or he was called a "done man", he was as shortstop. He was slim and didn't weigh very much, so he was not a long ball hitter. But he often beat out bunts and hit line drives over the head of the infielders. I also remember that if he caught the second baseman playing too close to the bag, then he was very adept at hitting the ball in the hole between first and second base. In other words, he played baseball with his brain as much as with his physical body. He was what I would call today a fletter-foot, good 00:06:00glove and exceptionally smart ball player. I know that he would study the opposing pitcher and relate to his teammates on the bench or the dugout, as we call it now, whether the other pitcher had a curve ball, fast ball, or so forth and whether he was wild and should be waited out. I was the bat boy and the water boy for the Louisa team and that sort of made me the envy of every boy in Louisa who also wanted that job. The team always took me, which of course I was proud of that, with them when they played away from home, such as games at Paintsville and Prestonsburg and Pikeville on the Big Sandy, to Huntington, Kenova, and so forth in West Virginia, and Portsmouth and Ironton in Ohio. As bat boy and water boy I remember Fred Vinson used three bats. One was lightweight, the other was medium weight, and the other a long and thick heavy 00:07:00bat. I believe that he got most of his hits with the light bats and most of his bunts, sacrifices, and hits that he beat out with the larger and heavier bat. Anyway, it was my job to hand him the bat. Of course, he would call for the one and it was a great honor for me to be that bat boy. As a young boy I can remember my mother and my Uncle John, who ran a grocery store in Louisa for over fifty years, and others saying, and I quote from what I have written down here, "That young man Fred Vinson is a comer." He had established a law practice in Louisa and it seems to me as I think back that one of his biggest assets was that everybody said that he was an honest and hard-working lawyer. His honesty and integrity was, I think, all the way through his life. That will show up in 00:08:00everything that he ever did. I believe I sort of became Fred Vinson's protege when he was elected by a big majority as Commonwealth Attorney of our district. One day he saw my mother and told her to have me stop by his office. In those days the Commonwealth Attorney prosecuted criminal cases in his district, but could also privately practice civil cases and I believe be the lawyer for the defendant in criminal cases outside his judicial district. I'm not sure about this, but believe this was correct and do recall that Mr. Vinson went into West Virginia to prosecute a murder case, being hired by the father of the murdered man. History books probably don't record much about that sensational trial at Wayne, West Virginia, but it resulted in a complete shake-up of the West 00:09:00Virginia political system and the end of the period of West Virginia state police system which would be referred to today perhaps as the Gestapo. Getting back to Mr. Vinson asking my mother to come see him at his office, I was excited because to me Fred Vinson was sort of an idol and he was that way perhaps to most of the people in the community. When I went to his office, he offered me the job of, I would say, his office boy. That is, cleaning his office each day after school. I have since held several positions, but I think that being Fred Vinson's office boy was the most exciting of all in my lifetime. And as I recall, his office was not located in the courthouse, as offices of Commonwealth Attorneys are in these days, but in a building of what I believe was on Water Street, which is near and overlooks the Big Sandy River. Every lawyer's office 00:10:00in those days had several spittoons or cuspidors and Mr. Vinson had five or six of those big copper spittoons. You know, that kind that weigh a lot and they hold a lot, too. But people chewed tobacco in those days and it was my job each day after I got out of school to first take the spittoons to the Big Sandy River, which was close to the office, where I scrubbed and cleaned them with sand until they would shine. I guess no young boy was ever happier than when somebody came to Mr. Vinson's office, particularly somebody like the governor of the state or some other big name politician who bragged on, [who Mr. Vinson's valuable sport ?] and visited him, but they would brag about how bright his spittoons in his office were. I guess I scrubbed those cuspidors thousands of times and I believe in all the lawyers' offices any place that we had the most 00:11:00sparkling cuspidors.

BIRDWHISTELL: Mr. Crutcher, how old were you when you worked in his office?

CRUTCHER: Well, I believe then that I was between ten and twelve years of age. I know that I was young. I was about that age when I was bat boy for the baseball team and I would judge that was about the time I was about that age when I was Mr. Vinson's office boy. Of course, I was his office boy for off and on for a number of years while he was at Louisa. I also knew the fine lady that he 00:12:00married. I might mention I had a job on Saturdays delivering groceries for my uncle John Crutcher's store in Louisa and when there was an order to be delivered to the Dixon home, which I recall was diagonally across the street from the Louisa passenger depot, I made it a point that I got to deliver that order. I remember very well, in fact vividly so, Roberta Dixon as of course your records will show, Mr. Vinson married Roberta. When I delivered the groceries she almost always gave me a piece of pie or cake and sometimes a nickel or dime tip. And I was just a young boy, but as I think back I realize that I thought she was the most beautiful person I had ever seen. And I think she was the belle of the town and I think any of the people that lived there at that time would 00:13:00recall that. In the meantime, two things were developing at Fred Vinson's law office which even I as the young office boy could detect. One was that delegations, politicians and county political leaders, were calling from all over county and neighboring counties urging Mr. Vinson to run for Congress. I can just see in my mind's eye now those groups coming in. And the spittoons, of course, got fuller during that period. I recall also at the same time that Mr. Vinson, who was then a very young and very active and, as I say, sort of then young man, was courting Roberta Dixon. Both items were sort of the talk of the 00:14:00town, the small town of Louisa, because everybody said that Fred Vinson would win for Congress if he would run and Lawrence County never had a Congressman or anybody who held high public office. At least as I can recall not before then. And then Roberta Dixon was sort of the belle of Louisa because of her beauty, mannerisms, and because of her personality. I think any research that's done would show much about Roberta. I mean very favorably so. Of course, she could have dated any of the young men in town and I think for a while she dated both Mr. Vinson and a cashier of one of the banks. Surprisingly when there was nobody 00:15:00in the office but Mr. Vinson and me, he often talked about the race for Congress and in his rapid, really a mathematical genius mind, and I might underscore that, he was a mathematical genius, he would add up the probable votes by counties and even by the precincts in the various counties of the district. I believe that was the old Kentucky Ninth District and I think there was something like eighteen counties in it. But he knew every precinct in it. And he also talked to me about Roberta Dixon because he knew that I delivered groceries to her and I think that Roberta probably liked me more than any young boy in town, at least I knew that he was running for Congress and his courtship with Miss Dixon were paramount in his office at that time. And of course, I was real 00:16:00strong for Mr. Vinson to run for Congress. As a young fellow I didn't know much about Congress, but I wanted him to run because to me nobody could ever beat him. And I was also wanting him and Roberta to get married. As I think back, when I was a boy I really believe I said my boyhood prayers, "Dear Lord, let Mr. Vinson run and win for Congress and dear Lord, let Mr. Vinson and Miss Dixon get married." Well, Mr. Vinson entered the race for Congress and campaigned in a Model T Ford. Since the primary was in August, Mr. Vinson took me with him on many of his campaign trips which was probably the greatest thing that ever happened to me in my boyhood. I sat on back porches and listened to him discuss the race with the leading politicians of each county. Of course, all this was fascinating and I guess my only regret then was that I wasn't old enough to vote 00:17:00for Fred Vinson. I do remember that one of his rules was that we always got invitations to stay at people's homes back in those days. That was in the early '20s, of course. Over fifty years ago. But he would never do that. He always stayed at mostly a boarding house or in some places like Paintsville and the Cole Hotel in West Liberty. We'd stay at the hotel. His philosophy was that if he stayed at somebody's home -- that of course -- where he didn't stay that might cause them to be jealous or feel bad. Anyway I know that that was one of his campaign rules. And we carried in that Model T his campaign posters and his candidate cards and I can today see that face, the picture of that campaign 00:18:00card. I can just visualize that now. He was a handsome man, as you know from the photographs. He had heavy eyebrows, but Mr. Vinson would be driving along and he would stop on one of the rural roads and he would say, "There's a good place to put up a poster." There would be a tree or a pole up on a high bank and I would jump out of the car and scramble up the bank and tack up a poster. I generally tacked up one on each side of the tree or the post so that you could see them both ways. And then Mr. Vinson never missed stopping at every rural store and of course in those days there was a crossroads store, well throughout the district there were hundreds of them and these stores were sort of the meeting place of 00:19:00the community. And of course the best place to campaign. I think we sort of understood between us that sometime during the visit I always asked the owner if I could put up some of Mr. Vinson's posters. And I never received anything but a "yes" answer. In fact, most of them said, yes they were happy to have me do so. I would then carefully put up a poster in each window and one on the front door and a candidate card in front of the cash drawer. In fact, my job was to get up the posters while Mr. Vinson did the talking. They didn't have cash registers in those days, but almost every merchant used a cash drawer and when they opened it a bell sounded. I suppose that was to keep somebody from robbing the till. But I carried a hammer and tacks and some manila tape and it was gummed on one side. 00:20:00Didn't have any scotch tape in those days. But I always put the posters in the best places and I secured them real good as Mr. Vinson had instructed me to do. I would also hand four or five of his cards to everybody in the store and leave a stack, perhaps thirty or forty, beside the cash drawer. So, I can see Mr. Vinson today as that was his favorite way of campaigning. Although he managed during the campaign to always make at least one speech in every courthouse in the district and sometimes we'd return to one county four or five times, particularly if he thought he was having trouble or if he could strengthen his position. That was my boyhood campaigning with, of course, Fred Vinson. That was 00:21:00in his, well actually, in his first race for Congress which I believe was in 1922. I believe that's correct.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did he do the driving when you two were out?

CRUTCHER: Oh, yes. I was too young. Mr. Vinson did all of his driving. One thing he would do. He would try to get back to Louisa. We hardly ever stayed out more than one night before coming back. I think, perhaps the reason for that was because of his courtship and he didn't want to leave Roberta because I think every boy in town would -- You see, she was probably the prettiest girl, at least she was in my mind, the prettiest girl in town and I'd say that Mr. Vinson, he was pretty smart, he was going back to protect his own interests.

BIRDWHISTELL: He was just a lawyer when he really began this campaign. What was 00:22:00his financial status?

CRUTCHER: Well, of course, I knew Fred Vinson, as I say, from the time I was a small boy until his death. Perhaps the most money that Fred Vinson made was practicing law. He was sort of the Harry Truman type that his honesty and his integrity were such that Mr. Vinson really and truly never was a very wealthy man. He was the type of person that does not become wealthy because of his honesty and his integrity and his love for the little man, his fellow man. He grew up in poverty, as you know, and that was his practice all his life. I know 00:23:00this. As a young lawyer when he had a case in court the juries often heard the rebuttals at night. They had gaslights in the courthouse and the judge would set the rebuttals for night and when Fred Vinson was going to speak either before he became prosecuting attorney as the defense lawyer or after he became prosecuting attorney as the prosecuting lawyer, why, the courthouse was always jammed. I know that my father was always on the front row and when he started practicing law almost from the start he had the confidence of the people; he had grown up there and everybody knew his mother and his people. And I'd say that word 00:24:00honesty and integrity characterized his entire life from the day he started to school until his death. I would classify those as his love for his fellow man. I'd say those were the three greatest characteristics of Fred M. Vinson. At least I think they are.

BIRDWHISTELL: Roberta Dixon's father was active in politics in Louisa, wasn't he?

CRUTCHER: Yes. He was active. I was too young then to remember. I know that Mr. Dixon was one of the political leaders. There were others like Mr. [?] Snyder and Mr. [?] Conley. I remember. Well, there were many others. Yes, Ernest Shannon who was the wealthiest man in town and a very strong Vinson supporter. I 00:25:00would say Fred Vinson's uncle, George Vinson, was president of the bank. And they were all strong supporters. I might interject at this point something unusual in politics. And this is not according to the notes that I wrote down here. But in every election, and this is true even today I think, in every election although Fred Vinson would win by a landslide and had no problems he always campaigned in what we called the Masonic home precinct at Louisa. And that was the precinct of the better homes in town and I don't know whether it was jealousy or what it was, of course when you get in politics, but he always 00:26:00had more trouble in the Masonic home precinct than any other. And I've seen him stand in the rain on election day and buttonhole every voter. Of course, he always carried it substantially. But that was the precinct in all of his political life and all the time he was in Congress, which was I think about eight terms, seven or eight anyhow, that is where he campaigned in that precinct. If you will recall when generally a president like [Franklin D.] Roosevelt lost his home precinct nearly every time and I guess it's sort of the same kind of situation. I mentioned to you that I'll always think that Fred 00:27:00Vinson achieved such high stature in the nation because of his great love for people, his honesty. He was religiously honest. And when I was his office boy during my early life, he often talked to me on the subject of honesty and integrity. And I've heard him say that if you tell somebody you will do something, then carry through with your promise no matter if conditions change so that it would be more advantageous to not live up to your promise. He had a great ability to get his point over whether he was talking to a farmer, a miner, a storekeeper, or one of the county or courthouse political leaders. But of course, in any analysis his memory for names and faces was perhaps his greatest 00:28:00asset in politics throughout his life. Of course, we didn't have television or radio then. Campaigning was done more on the roads and public speeches. In 1955 I traveled I guess it was over 30,000 miles with A. B. Chandler who was running for governor. I was his press agent. Wrote several of his speeches and everybody said that Mr. Chandler had the most remarkable memory of anybody they had known. And he has been pretty well written up by that. Happy has. And I think justly so. But I knew both men real well. I know Mr. Chandler now and I knew Mr. Vinson, and I would say that Fred Vinson had a more remarkable memory for names 00:29:00and faces, even children's names, than did Mr. Chandler. Although, I don't want to detract anything from Mr. Chandler because he is one of the greatest men in that respect. Now as we traveled between stops when Mr. Vinson was running for Congress, I would hear him mumbling to himself in his assimilation of faces and names. For example, say a fellow was named George Wilson, he would say to himself, "George Wilson, he's a farmer and usually votes Republican, wears overalls, almost bald, wife's name Mary, two daughters in grade school, one little boy." And he'd repeat that to himself 'til he got George Wilson and his wife and family implanted in his memory. And you just bet your last dollar that 00:30:00if Fred Vinson saw George Wilson or Mrs. George Wilson again that he would remember them and he would call him or her by their first name. Undoubtedly this ability, and as I say he was a mathematical genius, plus the image that he had as an honest, struggling young man, interested in the people's welfare were his greatest vote-getting traits. Now, I didn't note this down, but I remember back as his office boy he would often give me problems such as multiplying .3489 by 693 or 6.93. And I'd multiply it out and generally get it right after so long a 00:31:00time, but he could do that in his head. He was actually a genius. I've never known anybody that could, as they called it then, so good at figures. He could have multiplied that out in his mind. My mother, of course I was just a young boy, but she always let me go with Mr. Vinson on these campaign trips because she thought the world of Fred Vinson. He was her favorite. She always campaigned for Mr. Vinson herself. She made the point to go and visit all the neighbors when Fred Vinson was running and she worked at the polls, too. Anyway, I'd say my boyhood prayers, and I mentioned that was probably the two things I wanted Fred Vinson to run and win for Congress and that he and Roberta Dixon would get 00:32:00married. And I think it was in 1922 that Mr. Vinson was elected to Congress and I may be wrong about the date, it's been so long ago, but I believe it was the very next year that he and Roberta Dixon got married. I believe I'm correct. Anyway, I know that it was a wonderful marriage. And I know their two sons very well and what they have done.

BIRDWHISTELL: I noticed that on your notes that you have down that Mr. Vinson used to mumble Roberta's name while you were driving along.

CRUTCHER: Yes, I had missed that. If she ever hears this recording -- The last time I called on her, why, Mrs. Vinson was ill. But if she ever hears this, I 00:33:00don't think I've ever told her that. But I've heard him mumble her name many a time and I've heard him also mumble the name of the fellow that was also courting her. I think there was kind of a competition going on. I don't think he mumbled that name quite as affectionately as he did Roberta's name.

BIRDWHISTELL: A little different there.

CRUTCHER: I think so. [Laughter] Well, if you -- I can remember Mr. Vinson was, I believe, recognized as the best checker player. He loved to play checkers there in Louisa. Throughout his life anything that he went at, he was determined to be good at it or the best at it. And the residents of Louisa and many of them 00:34:00still living now will recall that back in those days John Justice operated the leading barber shop in town. Mr. Justice was not only a barber but he was the first person in Louisa to own an automobile. He was the first one to install a radio which had three dials. You listened over headphones. I know that in the barber shop we used to take turn about. We were allowed to listen maybe five minutes. And the stations we'd get, I remember were KDKA in Pittsburgh and I think one in Schenectady in New York. And that was the only two stations. And you had to dial with three big dials and he had two sets of headphones. And John Justice was the first one to have electricity, putting in a Delco system. Mr. Vinson and John Justice were very close friends. Mr. Justice installed a shower 00:35:00bath in his barber shop pumping hot water heated by gas into a tank. He charged twenty-five cents for anybody taking a bath. And it was the usual practice for the sporty men in Louisa, as I think back we had many of them in those days, to take a shower bath and also get a haircut, shave, massage, and a hair tonic. In other words they called it, "give me the works." Mr. Justice was also the only barber I ever knew of who would run charge accounts. I can remember somebody coming in, he'd look up their account. Anyhow, he and Mr. Vinson were great friends and Mr. Vinson often loafed in the barber shop. And I recall that the shoe shine boy was a black man and I used to marvel how he could make those shining rags pop when he finished, when he made that last swipe at the shoe. But 00:36:00the shining boy was remarkably a wonderful checker player. And I have seen him and Mr. Vinson play checkers by the hour. In fact, a crowd always gathered to watch the game. And as I recall, Mr. Vinson generally beat the boy about two out of three, but that was considered the best checker game in town. And I also remember that one of Mr. Vinson's extravagances and he was not an extravagant man during those days, was taking one of those twenty-five cent baths, a shave, massage, tonic, and shoe shine and I guess that was when he was courting Roberta Dixon. Mr. Vinson and the other young men in Louisa brought fresh clothes to the barber shop and they changed into these after they would take this shower bath. 00:37:00You understand, there wasn't any such thing then as a shower bath. This was the first one I ever saw and it was -- you'd have to know John Justice to understand how he built it and so forth. And I often wondered as a boy whether I would ever grow up and have enough money to take one of John Justice's shower baths and get a shave, massage, and a hair tonic and one of the shoe shine boy's shines, where he could always pop that rag. I guess I dreamed about that how that boy could really pop that shoe shining rag when he finished with his customers. On concern of this shoe shine boy is quite a story. When I was growing up at Louisa we had two black settlements. One of them was called Little Egypt and the other was Tin 00:38:00Can Alley. Really they were both nicer neighborhoods than you might think. They really weren't composed of run-down shacks. And the black population, we never had any racial problems. But the blacks who lived in Little Egypt and those who lived in Tin Can Alley didn't get along. They didn't like each other. Anyway, the ones in Tin Can Alley as I recollect built a new dance hall. It was a real fancy place. And I remember at one of their dances this shoe shine boy, he stands out in my mind because nearly every day he played checkers with Fred Vinson, had a disagreement. I think it was over a girl at the dance. Anyway, the combatants went outside the dance hall and I believe the shoe shine boy, the good checker player, killed the other man with a razor. In fact, I think he just 00:39:00about cut his head off with the razor. And I believe that Mr. Vinson was then in Congress and the shoe shine boy who had been his friend through the years wanted him to defend him. And Mr. Vinson talked to me about this. And he finally took the assignment course through friendship, of course, the Negro precincts always went overwhelmingly for Mr. Vinson and history shows that he was a strong believer in rights for the black people. Mr. Vinson defended him. I went to the trial every day. And the jury acquitted him on the grounds of self-defense. But Mr. Vinson talked to me about this case several times and I think he had some 00:40:00misgivings because the man that was killed didn't carry -- didn't have any weapon on him and the man that he defended who was his friend had that razor. And I think that concerned Mr. Vinson. That's the thing that I remember. And that's the type of fellow he was. If he thought an injustice had been done or justice hadn't been carried out, that concerned Mr. Vinson. As you mentioned a while ago, I think concern for people and for justice and so forth was more paramount in his mind than money and things that people today consider top achievements. He loved people. And I would say that he loved the little people more than anybody. Of course, I think that was throughout his history anybody that knows it or wrote it that would be the thing they would stress--his love of 00:41:00people, the little man.

BIRDWHISTELL: That incident, I think, also points out his loyalty towards his friends--his old friends. I know President Truman in his Memoirs said that Mr. Vinson was one of the most loyal persons to friends and party that he had ever run upon.

CRUTCHER: Well, that is exactly correct. I don't know as I have read what Truman said, but Mr. Truman had it exactly right. I made some notes a little further on about his only defeat in history was caused by such loyalty to his party. And he was loyal to his people. It's a thing that we just don't see today in most 00:42:00statesmen or politicians. The real loyalty and love and concern that they have for the people they're serving. Oh, I've heard them all say how public service and public this and that, of course, in these campaigns and that, but actually it was in Mr. Vinson's heart and I think that's the reason people took to him almost from the day he hung out his law shingle in Louisa. He was just the type of fellow that everybody trusted. If Fred Vinson said anything, that was just the way it was. There wasn't any question of it because they knew it was that way. Now, talking about his wealth. I can mention a case that happened and this 00:43:00was while I was, what you would call, his office boy and the boy who hung up his signs in his campaigns and so forth. Louisa is just across the river from Fort Gay in West Virginia. And when I was a growing boy about the most dreaded thing was the West Virginia State Police. They were always big men in full uniform carrying one or more guns. And they had the reputation on our side of the Big Sandy River for being mean and tough. In other words, you always tried to avoid one of the West Virginia State Police. And I've heard my father say many times that the governors of West Virginia used the state police to keep the people subservient, sort of a gestapo. A personal bodyguard. A personal army. Anyway, the son of the richest man in Louisa, I don't think it would be advisable to 00:44:00mention the name, it's been so long ago. While driving in West Virginia the state police checked him. And I remember it very well that he had a big powerful car and it was a Cord. You may never have heard of a Cord, but the Cord automobile was then the most expensive and high- priced car there was. As I recall he outran the state police, but parked at a roadhouse or a tavern on a hill near Williamson, West Virginia. And the West Virginia State Police found the car there. Of course, naturally they couldn't miss that Cord and this young man hid in the restroom, then you didn't call them restrooms, but of course they were toilets. He refused to unlock the door and the state police fired through the door and killed him. And as I recall, the boy's father, and I can visualize 00:45:00him right now when he visited Mr. Vinson's office. He claimed that the state police patrol in West Virginia and the trial of the policemen that killed his son wouldn't be fair and they would be acquitted. And I think Fred Vinson also knew, well, everybody did about the reputation of the West Virginia State Police. Well anyway, he accepted the job of helping prosecute the two state policemen who killed this young fellow from Louisa. And I can even remember as I sat in Mr. Vinson's office and I could hear many of the conversations, but I can remember the agreement was made, and you mentioned money, he was to get five thousand dollars guaranteed if he'd take the case. Of course, five thousand 00:46:00dollars was a lot of money at that time particularly. And one thousand dollars for each year imprisonment he could get the jury to award, twenty-five thousand dollars if they got life sentences, and fifty thousand dollars if they got the electric chair. I remember that agreement very well. And when Mr. Vinson worked on that case days and nights, I mean it was on his mind all the time. And he took me with him. The trial was during the summertime. I know that. And he took me with him from Louisa to Williamson. He drove it every day. It was about twenty-five or thirty miles. He was a great person to talk in an automobile. You can call it mumbling or talking. And he would ask questions. That's the way he would go over his strategy. But every day I would know pretty well what strategy 00:47:00he was going to use in the courtroom. Of course, just think back to your own age and that was a great thrill and to me it was the greatest thing happening. But anyway, when we arrived at the Wayne County courthouse the first day for the trial the town was so full of people you couldn't get through it. Thousands upon thousands had come from every place. And the city newspapers had sent reporters to cover the trial. It was a rather sensational and nationally publicized trial. And in West Virginia, of course, the state police in West Virginia were a formidable force. And nobody had ever challenged them. Of course, I thought I had so much confidence in Fred Vinson I thought the state police did this murder 00:48:00and I thought they'd get the electric chair or a life sentence at least because I thought Fred Vinson being the prosecutor that he could outwit any of them an that's what would happen. But the governor of West Virginia, and I'd rather not recall his name, although I remember it very well, he dispatched virtually hundreds of state policemen to Wayne for the trial under the premise that they were to keep order. And one of the first things that Mr. Vinson did was to ask the judge to issue an order that the state policemen stay mostly or only a certain number of them stay in town or near the scene of the trial on the premise that their presence intimidated the witnesses and the jury. And I think they would have. And he also got an order limiting the number of spectators in that limited courtroom. It was a very sensational trial. And I was rather proud 00:49:00day by day that Mr. Vinson took me with him and I knew behind the scenes what his questions were going to be and what he was going to say, his rebuttal arguments and so forth. Anyway, as I remember the state policemen each received twenty-one-year sentences by a West Virginia jury. And to convict a state policeman in those days in West Virginia was unheard of. I just don't think it ever happened before. And this set off a chain of political reactions in the state. And I believe the entire state police system in that state was changed as well as a lot of politicians from the governor on down were involved. And I know this, that after this trial in a year or two us boys that lived in Louisa we didn't have as much fear of the West Virginia State Police as we had before. And I believe that Mr. Vinson received twenty-one thousand dollars for prosecuting 00:50:00that case which is probably one of the largest fees that he received as a practicing lawyer. Of course, you realize that Mr. Vinson actually didn't practice too much private law. Most of his life was spent in public office. This might give you an indication of the type of man that Mr. Vinson was. Of course, it was a small town and everybody knew everybody else, but just at that very early age in his life I would say that Fred Vinson was considered Louisa's leading citizen. In fact, I would classify him as the leading citizen of eastern 00:51:00Kentucky or perhaps all of Kentucky. I want you to understand, though, that he was a shrewd politician. He could size people up. He could size an election up. I've often heard him after he would talk to a man say, "Well, he's for me," or "he's against me." And he had that ability. He knew people. I'll put it that way. And of course, after he was elected to Congress, why, I think Mr. Vinson had been elected to Congress about a year and C. & O. [Chesapeake & Ohio] Railroad ran through Louisa and they ran excursions to Washington. And I had saved enough money to make the trip and wrote Mr. Vinson a letter and told him I was coming. And he met the excursion train and I can see him this day in the 00:52:00Union Station in Washington shaking hands with everybody that got off that train. Of course, a big percentage of them were from his district. Then he took me to the House of Representatives Dining Room and introduced me to statesmen and congressmen and senators whom I had read about in the newspapers and you can think what a great experience that was for a young man like I was at that time. And I recall that he took the day from his office to personally show me over Washington and I think he purposely ended the trip at the Abraham Lincoln Memorial. I recall him saying that Abe Lincoln was the greatest president that we've ever had in history at that time. I also remember that Paul Leonard Kelley was his executive assistant all the time that he was in many Washington offices, 00:53:00from Congress on to the chief justice of the Supreme Court. And on my second day Paul Leonard Kelley escorted me over Washington. That was the first time I had ever been away from home, except once my father took me to see the Cincinnati Reds play. Of course, I remember one time, well, my idols were Jack Dempsey and Babe Ruth and Eddie Roush in those days and in Fred Vinson's office sports was a main topic. Fred Vinson loved to talk about sports. He could give you the batting average of every player in the major league. As I say, that mathematical mind, everything seemed to record itself in his mind. Of course, you talk about party loyalty, I can very well remember probably the lowest ebb in Fred Vinson's 00:54:00adult life and his political life. After he was elected to Congress he became even more popular. He was the type that if you wrote him a letter, no matter who you were, you got an answer and you got an honest effort in your behalf. He just didn't take the letter and, like is done so much today, give you back some kind of short note. But he pursued your cause or what you wanted done and got it done if he could. So for the next two or three terms, at least for two, he was elected without any problem. The opposition was never able to put up any candidate who was very formidable against him and then as I recall it was in 00:55:001928. And Mr. Vinson's office, I might mention, he had never done this before, but he set up campaign offices. And he set up his campaign offices in the old [Brunswick ?] Hotel and that was owned by Ernest Shannon, who was once state treasurer of Kentucky and of course, I guess the wealthiest man in the community. Mr. Vinson asked me to work in his campaign office. By that time I had learned to type and it was his habit to write memos. And he had a beautiful handwriting, if you look at anything he ever wrote. And he would write, "Dear John," and he would give me those and who they were to and I would look up John's address and address the envelopes in his office. But I remember that and 00:56:00this gets back to just what you said, party loyalty. Delegations started coming in from all the counties and the letters and, of course, phone calls. Of course, people didn't use the telephone then like they do now, but they were all warnings. And Mr. Vinson was making speeches, not only in his district and in Kentucky, but in other states for Al Smith. And Al Smith was running against Herbert Hoover for president. Mr. Vinson's district had very few people of the Catholic faith and religion became a tremendous issue. And I know that Mr. Vinson often talked to me about it. But he refused, although everybody advised him to forget Al Smith and run his own campaign. Instead, what he did he 00:57:00redoubled, in my opinion, his efforts for Al Smith. He thought that Al Smith would make the best president. He didn't like Herbert Hoover. I'll tell you that. And he thought that Herbert Hoover was -- well, I've heard him talk many times and he certainly was very critical of Mr. Hoover. Particularly as president, although I think he regarded him highly as a citizen or a man. But Mr. Vinson refused to vary from his course and his loyalty to the party and to Al Smith. He spoke in every county. I was with him on most of them. And I've often heard him say that this is not a religious issue and so forth. But particularly in eastern Kentucky it was an issue. It was the issue! And people 00:58:00who had strongly supported Fred Vinson started criticizing him for his position for Al Smith. Well, anyway, as I recall it, the Republican Party had nominated a fellow over in -- I believe it was in Nicholas County, around Carlisle. Nobody ever knew him and the man never did campaign. In fact, I think he was out plowing the day of the election as I recall. But the calls started coming in that election night and on account of that religious issue and his party loyalty Fred Vinson lost the race.

BIRDWHISTELL: Do you think he was surprised by his defeat in '28?

CRUTCHER: I think he was. I think he always thought that the people would stand behind him 00:59:00regardless. And he knew that the religious issue was hurting him, but I think that he always thought that he had enough support and backing and so forth that he could win despite it. I've always felt that way. But I was in the office in the old Brunwick Hotel the night of the election and as he got the reports in from some of the counties I remember him turning around and saying, "Boys, I'm defeated." And he took it very well. I've heard him say later that he never regretted what he did. And it was a campaign that, as I say, the religious issue prevailed over everything else and over people's judgement. Of course, the 01:00:00nation has changed since them. Such as the election of John Kennedy and the religious issue doesn't enter into campaigns like it did back in those days. Now, in 1930 -- that was in 1928. Well, Mr. Vinson practiced law and it may have been during this period that this trial developed that I mentioned in West Virginia. I'm not sure about the dates. But anyway, I went with him and most of the times and I think he liked to talk to me. I know that I was fascinated with Mr. Vinson. He was sort of my idol. He always was. But he made many visits to the counties between the time of his defeat and the 1930 election. Now I remember in 1930 he filed for Congress and in the Democratic primary he had 01:01:00opposition. And I remember that he carried every precinct in every county of the district. Now, here's one thing the history books will show and I don't think this ever happened before. That in Greenup County he received every vote that was cast in the primary. I think something around 4,000 to nothing. And that's amazing to me. One time I was in the Greenup courthouse and John Millus was the county clerk then. I asked him to see that record of where a man would get a vote of 4,000 to nothing. And he showed it to me and I wrote a story and we took a picture of the vote as they had tabulated in the records of Greenup County. But then in the November election, of course you know, the Great Depression hit, 01:02:00Wall Street crashed, and so forth. I'm not sure about this, but I believe that Fred Vinson carried very precinct also in November. I know that he went back to Congress by a tremendous landslide and from then on, why, until he left Congress which I believe was about 1938. Your records will show better than my memory. It was just a foregone conclusion that nobody could beat Fred Vinson; in fact, he didn't have much opposition because the other fellow knew that he couldn't beat him and what was the use in running. So they just practically gave Fred Vinson the office from that day until he resigned. Although I will say this, that when he didn't have much of a campaign and the result was a foregone conclusion and 01:03:00he would win by a tremendous majority, Mr. Vinson made it a point to go on the campaign trail. I wouldn't say he ran scared. He was knowledgeable and he knew where he stood. But I think you get back again to his love for the people. He enjoyed the campaign trail that he could visit these rural stores and many times he would pull up in front of a house and a lady would come out and he would call her "Aunt Samantha" and he would see a fellow walking along the road and he would stop and he'd say, "Jim, how are you getting along?" And he was that type of person. [End of Tape #1, Side #1]

[Begin Tape #1, Side #2]

BIRDWHISTELL: Mr. Crutcher, we were talking when the other side of the tape ran out about Mr. Vinson's congressional campaigns and I think one of the 01:04:00interesting developments was the fact that he took over Governor [William J.] Fields' congressional seat when he became governor and then Mr. Fields came back and opposed him.

CRUTCHER: Well, that's correct. I knew Governor Fields. I even remember his campaign slogan: "Honest Bill from Olive Hill." Of course during the campaign Governor Fields, as you know, was a Democrat and he served four years as governor. When he returned, well I recall that he visited Mr. Vinson's office. I believe the discussion was that he asked Mr. Vinson to withdraw from Congress and let him run and Mr. Vinson would not do that. Of course, by that time Fred 01:05:00Vinson was much more powerful force in the district or I would say through Kentucky than was the ex-governor. And I know that during that campaign, and it comes to me a little bit now, that Mr. Vinson did not speak in Carter County. That's the only county he did not speak in and he said the reason was that -- was out of respect for Mr. Fields. Although he did campaign in Carter County and I know that he met people there and talked to them and I don't recall the vote, but I'd say he received a substantial vote from Carter County. I don't think there was ever any discussion really between Governor Fields and Congressman Vinson. I just think that Governor Fields wanted his old job back and Mr. Vinson 01:06:00was an enterprising, young attorney and knew that he had the strength and knew he had the vote and he would not accede to it. I particularly remember the fact that that was the campaign and Mr. Vinson always spoke at every courthouse one or more times during the campaign. But he did not speak in Carter County, out of respect for Governor Fields. And I am sure that he during the campaign he did not say one ill word against Governor Fields. As a matter of fact, I never remember Mr. Vinson saying one derogatory word against an opponent in his lifetime that I ever heard. And I was around and I think I would know if practically anybody did. That wasn't his method of campaigning. He campaigned on his own merits and not somebody else's demerits.

BIRDWHISTELL: Talking about some things that happened while he was in Congress, 01:07:00one of the interesting developments also was, I believe, in 1932 when they had the at-large races for Congress in Kentucky and everyone was running from an at-large berth.

CRUTCHER: Yes, I can remember that very well. As you say, you go back that far. Under the ruling, of course, they threw the whole state because of the -- I guess, the population census, they threw the whole state and every congressman had to run at-large. As I recall it, and I attended a meeting, I think it was held at Lexington and the Democratic incumbent members of Congress had a meeting and I would that Mr. Vinson was perhaps the chairman or leader at that time and it was agreed that they would all stand together. In other words, in his 01:08:00district Mr. Vinson would support the other incumbents and they in turn in their districts would support all incumbents. In other words, work together as a combined ticket. And as I recall, now I may be wrong, and he's my friend to this day, but I believe that John Young Brown, Sr., whom I call "Senior" now, entered the race for Congress. And I think that all the incumbent congressmen were re-elected except one. As I recall it, John Young Brown, Sr. broke that slate by -- not by a big majority, but he broke the slate. I remember that he went to Congress. If I'm not wrong that is when he went to Congress.

BIRDWHISTELL: That's right.

CRUTCHER: Now, I know this, in Fred Vinson's district he didn't have any cards 01:09:00printed that time with Fred Vinson's name on them. His cards contained all the names and he had an X put after every one of them. I think that history or the records will also show that perhaps Mr. Vinson's district, if you'd break it down by counties, probably went to heaviest for the incumbent members than any district in Kentucky. I think that Mr. Brown who is a real close friend of mine and John Young Brown, Jr., who of course has made quite a name for himself in Kentucky Fried Chicken is quite a friend of mine. But particularly his father, I've known him and admired him and he's one of my friends. In fact, he was here in this office about two weeks ago. And he broke the slate. I remember that election. Yes.

BIRDWHISTELL: I know that Mr. Vinson and Mr. Brown once they got in Congress had a few words on the floor.

CRUTCHER: Yes.

BIRDWHISTELL: What was their relationship? What did Mr. Vinson think of Mr. Brown?

CRUTCHER: Well, I've always figured that if you knew John Young Brown as a freshman member of Congress you would understand something about that dispute. They didn't get along in Congress. There was a debate concerning washing dirty linen. That'll probably be in the record books. And I believe that Mr. Brown didn't go along -- As you know, and history records, Mr. Vinson was a party man. He was a believer in unity. If you're playing on a ball team, you play as a team and not as an individual. And I believe that Mr. Brown, although he's a fine friend of mine to this day, I believe he was not exactly a team member. And I think that's what it probably came up over. In '32, let's see. That would have 01:11:00been when Franklin D. Roosevelt was elected president. Well, of course, I'm very certain that Mr. Vinson was on F.D.R.'s team. They were great friends. They became great and close friends and I would judge in retrospect that what Mr. Brown did was this, he didn't exactly vote or work with the other members of the Congress and with Franklin D. Roosevelt as president. And of course, we had a great depression at that time, as you well know. I do know that there was some bitterness that developed between them. And in the next campaign they ran by district and I know that Mr. Vinson went into John Young Brown's district and 01:12:00campaigned against him with his friends. And John Young Brown was defeated. I recall that.

BIRDWHISTELL: You know, it's very true that Mr. Vinson was an ardent New Dealer and went along with F.D.R.'s programs.

CRUTCHER: Oh, yes. Very much so. I suspect that the Congressional Record will show that he did not oppose any of the F.D.R. programs. Of course, you get back again to this thing, which I talk so much about. Mr. Vinson's love for his fellow man, particularly the poor man or the average citizen. And when Franklin D. Roosevelt became president people were in soup lines, people were hungry and I would say that Fred Vinson would have gone along with any program, particularly by Roosevelt, whom he admired so much, to bring us out of that 01:13:00depression. At least give people food and so forth. Yes, he believed -- Well, I'll tell you this. I think that he was probably Franklin D. Roosevelt's favorite in Washington and I think also and I'll give you the opinion of a person that was close to him. I was in Washington many times. I'd say that Harry Truman thought more of Fred Vinson than he did of any man, trusted him more, thought more of him than he did of any man in Washington. Now, it's my opinion and of course it would be biased because of my great admiration for Fred Vinson, but it's my opinion that the thinking of Harry Truman and Fred Vinson are very much parallel in that they were both -- well, you take monopolies, 01:14:00conglomerates, or big business, Fred Vinson had about the same thought as did Harry Truman. Of course, Vinson worked closely in connection with that in the Truman investigating committee. I think that Mr. Vinson was director of [the Office of] War Mobilization [and Reconversion] at that time or during the war. I think he took [James F.] Byrnes' place. And I remember his office was in the Federal Reserve Bank Building in Washington. Fred Vinson thought in terms of the average man. Now, I know the other evening I was watching the television program 01:15:00about Truman and it was about the building of roads out in Missouri and the Pendergast machine. And I could just visualize that that would be Fred Vinson's position exactly. The main thing is to hell with politics, but get the best roads for the people and save the money for the people. That was Fred Vinson's philosophy. And I think that he and Harry Truman had a lot of thinking in common. I think that he and F.D.R. confided almost -- well I would say, many, many times, almost daily in fact. President Roosevelt, I know, had great respect for Fred Vinson as did his colleagues. Fred Vinson was the type of man that created respect. It's just like this. If you saw an honest, plus a capable man, you couldn't help but create respect in you. I think that's the type of man that 01:16:00Fred Vinson was. During his tenure in Washington I was in Washington quite a bit. I was there almost every week. I jotted down some notes here, random notes that might be -- I remember when I was a boy that I had a watermelon patch and right in the corner of the patch I had one watermelon and it was much bigger than any others. And I'm giving this as an example of the type of fellow that Fred Vinson was or the type of man. And I told my mother that I was saving that watermelon and I was going to give it to Fred Vinson. And of course to his wife Roberta. They hadn't been married too long. Well, the watermelon got ripe and anyway, I took that watermelon. I remember even plugging it real deep to be sure 01:17:00that I was getting a real ripe watermelon. And so, Mr. Vinson was working that night in his office and I took him the watermelon. And just as I stepped in the door, I don't know whether I slipped on something or not, I fell and the watermelon burst. Well, you can imagine a young boy -- Of course, I imagine tears came to my eyes. But Fred Vinson saw what had happened of course, he told me to sit down. "Now you wait here a minute. I want to see about something." And he went down to the store and bought a watermelon and came back and he said, "Well, you brought me a watermelon and now I've bought the both of us a watermelon." And he cut it. I remember him talking about or our discussion was about which was the best kind of watermelon, a "Georgia Rattlesnake" or a "Black-seeded Simpson." And when I left there he just had a knack of making me 01:18:00forget about dropping that watermelon. And we sat there for an hour and of course, he was just that type. In other words, me dropping the watermelon hurt him more than me. If you know what I mean.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

CRUTCHER: I recall that Mr. Vinson did not like patronage. He did not like to handle patronage. He liked to help people to get jobs. He liked to help them get ahead, but he's told me many times that the votes that he lost were mostly due to patronage. For example, the congressmen in those days always had the appointment of the postmasters. Well, those were Depression days and when a vacancy came in a postmastership there would probably be thirty or forty apply. Well, the Civil Service would qualify only three, the top three. And of course 01:19:00the other twenty or thirty, they would say there was something wrong with the examination and probably blame the congressman. And then he had to pick from the three. And he always said he made more enemies through patronage. And I know he had recommended in the Democratic Party and in Congress and to several presidents that the patronage system ought to be dispensed with for the good of the party and perhaps of the nation. And he was very much -- I remember his opposition to patronage. He did not like to handle that. Today we have of course your primary tax is your income tax. I know this. Mr. Vinson was, to a very large extent, responsible for the taxation system and the taxation program that we have in the United States today. He was pretty much of an expert. As I say, 01:20:00he was a mathematical wizard and I've heard him talk many times about the inequity of the form of taxation. The taxes fell too much on the average fellow and not enough on the rich fellow. Now you're getting right back again to the Harry Truman thinking and I think that the history books will show that he had a great impact in Congress in the presentation of what is now our present tax program. Mr. Vinson, as I said before, during his tenure in government in Congress, was so honest that I'm sure that he never accumulated very much money. He more or less lived from one pay day to the next. And he, of course, left the 01:21:00Congress to become -- He was appointed as a member of the District of Columbia Court of Appeals. That's the second highest court in the land. You can either carry a case or appeal it to that court or to the court in your own district. And of course, that court gets the big cases, primarily on taxes and so forth.

BIRDWHISTELL: Why do you think he was appointed to that position and why do you think he took that job since he liked politics so much?

CRUTCHER: Well, I think that Mr. Vinson recognized that as a congressman that he was not accumulating anything financially. I know that he had borrowed money from, I believe it was his uncle, George Vinson, who was president of the bank 01:22:00in Louisa. And I think that he started considering his family that he had better build some security. And of course, he was as you know a lawyer. The court would also present a challenge to him because of the Court of Appeals of the District of Columbia is as you know the second highest court in the land. And it handles the policy cases. I never heard him say why he left Congress. I think he didn't want to leave the people, his friends. But I would think that his stability and his family -- After all, I believe congressmen only made about ten thousand dollars a year then. And particularly living in Washington and coming back in your district and so forth it was a job where you could never accumulate any 01:23:00money. As a matter of fact, I know that probably Mr. Vinson went in debt all the time he was in Congress. I will say one thing, if anybody had approached Fred M. Vinson, and again I get back to the Truman thing, with an attempted bribe, I believe that he would have been -- know that he would have been incensed. He was untouchable. That's why I compare him -- Of course, I'm an admirer of Truman and it's that honesty which the people today feel that so many of our leaders do not have. That perhaps was the thing that would mark Fred Vinson among his other attributes. That would have to be a standout. That stood out in Harry Truman. And Fred Vinson was also like Truman in this respect. They called him, 01:24:00"Give-them-Hell Harry," but Fred Vinson when he felt like he was right, he was as firm and unmovable as perhaps anybody including Truman. When he took a position and he knew he was right, he held the position. He wouldn't budge.

BIRDWHISTELL: Mr. Crutcher, you know that at the same time that Mr. Vinson took the Court appointment it was during the time when there was speculation that Senator [Marvel M.] Logan was going to get appointed to a federal judgeship. And that would move Governor Chandler into the Senate. I know at least one historian has speculated that this was one of the reasons why Vinson got the court appointment to keep Governor Chandler from the Senate. Do you think there's any basis to that?

CRUTCHER: Well, I would not be surprised. My recollections on that are not too good except in this respect. I know that Mr. Vinson was not an admirer at that 01:25:00time of Mr. Chandler. I know that they didn't see eye to eye and as a ball-team player, I would say if such a situation developed and he was asked to do it, to prevent such a development as you mentioned, I would say that Fred Vinson would probably be a team player again and he would agree to it. That I do know. He never told me that. However, that's a strong possibility. I will say that.

BIRDWHISTELL: Mr. Vinson worked against Happy Chandler getting the lieutenant governor nomination in '31, I believe.

CRUTCHER: Oh, yes. That's when they held the convention in Lexington. And that was when the thing turned. Mr. Vinson was opposed and that's when he made that 01:26:00speech when he said that "I'm in favor of a steamroller so long as I'm the one who is operating the steamroller." That was a thing in politics in Kentucky. Of course, Chandler's whole life has been pretty well marked by unusual circumstances. And Mr. Chandler broke, what you would call, the establishment at that time in Kentucky of which Mr. Vinson was a part at that particular time. Of course, at that time the nominees were selected at the convention rather than popular vote. I remember that convention very well. I was in Lexington with Mr. Vinson.

BIRDWHISTELL: And then of course in 1938 when Governor Chandler challenged Senator Barkley, Vinson was on Barkley's side in that.

CRUTCHER: Mr. Vinson was enraged. He thought that Senator Barkley served the 01:27:00state and the country and he campaigned heavily for Barkley. It was a bitter campaign. And I heard Mr. Vinson make several speeches during that campaign and I would say that perhaps those were the most bitter speeches he made. I said a while ago that I had not heard him say anything derogatory toward one of his opponents. I would have to say that in that campaign he said derogatory things about Mr. Chandler. He was very strong. And I remember this. Yes. I remember this. That in that campaign Fred Vinson prevailed upon Franklin D. Roosevelt, of 01:28:00course, Barkley had also, to come to Kentucky. And as I recall it, the president spoke at Covington during that campaign. And I know that, of course, Mr. Barkley was close to F.D.R., too, as you know, because of his position and so forth in the Senate. But I know that Fred Vinson worked perhaps as hard or harder in that campaign to elect Barkley as he had ever in one of his own or any other campaigns. Yes, that is true. He very sharply opposed Mr. Chandler in that campaign.

BIRDWHISTELL: You mentioned the fact that he went to the Court of Appeals. And I noticed in the notes that you jotted down about war mobilization director. Did you see Mr. Vinson during this period?

CRUTCHER: Yes, it so happened I was in Washington, I would say an average of two or three times a month. And Mr. Vinson's office was in the Federal Reserve Bank Building. It was a new building at that time. In fact, I always thought it was one of the prettiest buildings in Washington. It was heavily guarded. I always was able to get in right fast. I know that a person who worked in that office was Ed Prichard. He was one of the persons working in that office and I had a reason for going. I know this, that there was a telephone in Mr. Vinson's office. You had to go through several guards to get in there. The war was being planned a great part of it right in there. And I know that Mr. Vinson had a direct phone, which was checked every day for bugs--

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right?

CRUTCHER: And it was checked everyday, directly to Franklin D. Roosevelt's desk. And they talked. And he always called Franklin D. Roosevelt "Champ". He called him "the Champ". And often times, I've been in the room and he'd ask me to leave. He'd say, "I'm talking to `the Champ'." And I will tell you this. At other times he didn't ask me to leave and I thought it was a great experience to hear the president of the United States and the war mobilization director discussing the war. Now, I remember this about the war. Fred Vinson, I've heard him say this several times. That [Adolf] Hitler was a madman and that he would make one mistake. And the mistake that he would make was attacking Russia. He believed that. I've heard Fred 01:31:00Vinson say that not once, but twenty times. And I was in his office two days after Hitler moved toward Russia. And Fred Vinson said then, "This is the beginning of the end of the war. He has made the same mistake as did Napoleon." And Fred Vinson probably knew Russia's strength better than the American people. And he never thought that Hitler could -- When he made his advances into Russia, it weakened his army and so forth. I remember, also, when you speak of Russia that when Truman was president I got an inkling, as did Ed and some of the rest of us, about a great development that was coming in Russia. Russia was mentioned several times. And I did not know it then. I have since found it out through the 01:32:00reading of some of Truman's books and history that Mr. Truman had arranged for Fred Vinson to go to Russia. And somehow that information leaked out and as a result the trip was cancelled. Fred Vinson was a person who believed that Russia was a strong nation back when most of America, the average citizen, did not consider Russia to have the strength they had. I think that Fred Vinson always predicted that Russia would be a world power as they are today. I think he had great foresight. Particularly so far as Russia was concerned. But I've heard Fred Vinson sit at that telephone and talk to "the Champ" and then sit back and say how many ships we had built, how many planes we had in the air, and so 01:33:00forth. That it was just a matter of time and the war was over. Now, one of the things that came up in that office was the war inflation and so forth. They were trying to hold it down. It was a policy office and I've always believed that President Roosevelt probably trusted Fred Vinson's judgement more than any person, including his generals. And I think I've heard some discussions as to the conduct of the war. I've always believed that. I've always believed that Fred Vinson knew and was in on the discussions about the atomic bomb. I'll always believe that when Truman gave that order that probably Fred Vinson was sitting beside or they had conferred at great length. Mr. Vinson lived at the, what was then, Wardman Park Hotel in Washington. I believe it is now the 01:34:00Sheraton Park. And I think that they had a club down there on the basement floor they called it the Denny Moore Club. I have a right fair idea that Mr. Franklin D. Roosevelt came there and the Secret Service and so forth and that's where they had, well, you call them friendly poker games or whatever you want to. I know they played poker there and I know that Franklin D. Roosevelt and Fred Vinson were two top poker players. I've heard discussions about some of those games and I would say that that was probably one of the relaxing things to President Roosevelt was the Denny Moore Club. I think it was private and 01:35:00probably no book will ever be written about it, but I know that it existed and I know some of the people that were invited and most of them were of course great names in American history. I'll always believe, and this again is as I say I admire Mr. Vinson so much, but I'll always believe that Franklin D. Roosevelt wanted Mr. Vinson to run for vice-president. I think that Mr. Vinson turned him down. I do know this. Harry Truman did everything he could to get Mr. Vinson to run for vice-president. And in the great Truman-Barkley victory I believe that Fred Vinson, and this dates back to what you said awhile ago about Barkley, that 01:36:00I believe that Vinson was asked to run for vice-president and he instead said no and I think that he was the man who persuaded Harry Truman to select Alben W. Barkley as his running mate.

BIRDWHISTELL: Why do you think Mr. Vinson declined the offer to run for vice-president in '48?

CRUTCHER: Well, of course, he was a practical politician and the polls at that time showed that Truman was running behind, I guess, it was Tom Dewey was the Republican nominee. And it was just a foregone conclusion. You remember the Chicago Tribune printer the newspaper, "Dewey Wins." And other newspapers did the same thing. Now, I'll tell you a part of Vinson's life. If you will recall, 01:37:00Harry Truman, these polls were showing what they were, took his campaign to the people. And I'll always believe that Fred Vinson had a great deal to do with that. I would say that he either proposed that to Harry Truman or that he was in complete agreement with Harry Truman to get on that train and go to the people. That's the way that Fred Vinson always won. He believed in people. I was in Washington shortly before the election and incidently Harry Truman spoke here in this town, in Morehead. He was the only president that ever did speak here. And after he had spoken here I was in Washington and I gave a firsthand report to 01:38:00Mr. Vinson. I was in charge of that here at that time. In charge of the program. Of course, it was just a train stop. He was here for about thirty minutes.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did he stop down here at the station?

CRUTCHER: Yes, biggest crowd that ever was in Morehead.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right?

CRUTCHER: And I made a report to Mr. Vinson as to what would happen. I told him what the reaction had been to that speech and I never will forget. He said, "Time." And I saw him hit his hand on the desk. "If we've just got time." He went over that. And he knew that Harry Truman was gaining by leaps and bounds. But whether he could catch the front-runner, who was Dewey I think, was perhaps the question mark. After all, you pick up the newspaper and you see a poll showing such lopsided figures. That was the campaign that the pollsters and so 01:39:00forth would rather forget about. Of course, they've changed their methods of polling now. And they've been accurate since, but they sure missed it that time. But I do know that Truman wanted Fred Vinson to run for, I said, vice-president, he wanted him to run for president as his successor. I know that. And he refused to do it. And I believe that he asked him to run for vice-president and that is when Vinson went for Barkley. I believe Vinson always was aware of Barkley's ability to get over to the people. He was an orator. Barkley was more or less what you would say the type back in the old days but still that's probably what 01:40:00they needed in that campaign. And what they were throwing at Dewey was a double-edged thing and they had Truman, who of course the publicity was coming to Truman naturally as the candidate for president and he was president. But at the same time, Barkley was hitting and hitting hard. Barkley was making two and three speeches every day. And of course he was on the west coast and so forth, which you didn't read so much about, but probably Barkley was the ideal man to be the running mate for that time. I think that Fred Vinson knew that. But still, I think, all in all getting in that period through there to me the one thing that Fred Vinson and perhaps Franklin D. Roosevelt had the same opinion, but the one thing that Fred Vinson always thought was that Germany and perhaps 01:41:00the world and perhaps the people of the United States underestimated Russia. He had great respect for Russia's ability, for Russia's army and their ability to produce. And he always thought, and I know I've heard him say many times, that when Hitler turned on Russia that was the end of Hitler. You know, Franklin D. Roosevelt made that speech in which he said how many ships and planes we were going to make and the only thing that we had to fear was fear itself. I've been in Mr. Vinson's office in Washington when he was war mobilization director many times and after he had talked to the president and he would say we have built so many thousands of ships. The Kaiser shipyards laid the keel of a ship and three days later it was on the ocean. Fred Vinson had the pulse of the people. He knew 01:42:00what the people were thinking. But he portrayed the unity among the people. That this was a nation unified. I know that Ed Prichard, who was close to him. We have often mentioned that since that time. Paul Leonard Kelley was the executive assistant all during his different offices in Washington. I have talked to Paul Leonard about that. Fred Vinson saw a country, a nation, that was united, determined and in his opinion and the opinion of Franklin D. Roosevelt I don't think there was any question of that they thought that the United States could 01:43:00win the war. And they never had any doubts about conquering Hitler. I firmly believe that because you could almost tell that Mr. Vinson was not the type of person that would make statements except with caution. But I've heard him say many times about the great progress that this country was making. Of course, he and Roosevelt, well as I said before, I think that probably the closest man to Franklin D. Roosevelt was Fred Vinson and I believe that the closest man to Harry S Truman was Fred Vinson. I'll always believe that from my association.

BIRDWHISTELL: After the war Mr. Vinson became Truman's secretary of the treasury.

CRUTCHER: Yes, I mentioned that. I've got it in my notes how Fred Vinson made 01:44:00the "F" in his name if you've seen it. He wrote a beautiful handwriting. And I remember that one of the things that I asked him to do was one of the first bills that was printed with Fred M. Vinson's signature that I wanted to get it. And it so happened he sent me a dollar bill and I've got it in my safety deposit box. And it's one of the first ones that came out when he was the secretary of the treasury. Of course, he didn't stay in the Treasury very long. There are so many things I just jotted down here. Often in Washington, Fred Vinson loved to eat at a place, a seafood place, named O'Donald's. And he always ate at what we called the "old O'Donald's". And I have eaten there with him many times. And during the war when it first stated, here at Morehead State University the 01:45:00enrollment, as it did everyplace in Kentucky and other schools, dropped to nothing. And the mayor and Dr. [?] Pennebaker, representing the university, and I went to Washington and we were trying to get a naval school. Well, if you've been to the Pentagon or any of the armed forces offices you know about the red tape and so forth. And we weren't making any progress and I recommended that we call on Mr. Vinson. And we went to see Mr. Vinson and explained our problem. Of course, he knew Morehead very well. That was in his district and almost overnight everything unfolded. The doors started opening for us and it so happened that the second school that was established in the United States was at 01:46:00Morehead. The first was at Notre Dame [University]. Of course, Fred Vinson was the one that got the school. We went up there. We were small town boys trying to help and the university sent a good representative. But of course, all Fred Vinson needed to do was after we had gone was pick up the telephone and call the White House and say, "I'd like to see a school at Morehead." Of course he had that kind of power. Now I remember very well, and I don't remember the exact date, but John L. Lewis had called a strike of the United Mine Workers and the steel mills were closing and a crisis had hit the country. I know that was the headlines in the newspaper. And Lewis said that he was not going to bend or make 01:47:00any concessions. And Mr. Vinson was chief justice of the Supreme Court then. And Mr. Vinson summoned John L. Lewis and he went for a conference. It was publicized very heavily. And John L. Lewis, who also had shaggy eyebrows like Fred Vinson if you look at their pictures, I know some of the cartoonists took advantage of that, but he walked out of the Supreme Court after some thirty- minute conference. It was not a long conference. And the newsmen were waiting outside and he said, "This is to announce that the United Mine Workers' strike ends as of now." So I asked Mr. Vinson -- I visited him often in the Supreme Court. In fact I think the United States Marshals who guard the offices of the justices got so they knew me by my nickname. But anyway, I asked Mr. Vinson what 01:48:00he said to John L. Lewis. And he studied a while and he said, "Well, that is one thing that not even my wife knows." But he added, "Well, the president of the United States knows." And I will always think that the president and Fred Vinson issued a mandate to John L. Lewis then to open those mines or else. I would say that they were going to call out perhaps the National Guard, perhaps throw John L. Lewis in jail. You see the chief justice of the Supreme Court can invoke many laws or procedures as can, of course, the president of the United States, even more so. But I'd say that that was a well-arranged meeting. I'd say it was 01:49:00short, but to the point and I don't believe that he listened much, knowing Fred Vinson, to what John L. Lewis had to say. I think that he just told him what he was going to do and what was going to happen. And I'd say that he gave a time limit. Either announce it now or I'm going to take the action. But anyway, Mr. Vinson would never talk about that and I would say that that meeting only two people, the president of the United States and Fred Vinson knew about that. Of course, I was in his office -- And I remember on time after Mr. Vinson was appointed chief justice of the Supreme Court I went to visit him and he told me about a delicatessen. If you know where the Supreme Court Building is there in Washington, about five blocks away. And he sent me there and we got cheese and 01:50:00crackers. I even remember buying an onion and we sat back in the chief justice's office and at cheese and bologna and he looked over at me and he said, "Just like it used to be at your uncle's store back in Louisa." But he really enjoyed that. That's the type of fellow he was. And then after we had eaten that, I went out and you know how sedate the Supreme Court is and so forth and I've often thought about that. Another thing, when Mr. Truman was sworn in as president of the United States, Fred Vinson, and as I say he had a very retentive mind and I suppose that this is the only time it has ever happened in history of the United States, Fred Vinson memorized the oath of office and did not read it from the 01:51:00book that day. And I think if you research it, you'll see. And as a matter of fact, I was in his office the day before the inauguration and he went over it at least ten or twelve times while I had the book. And he had it memorized and he did not read the oath of office when Harry S Truman was sworn in as president of the United States and Mr. Barkley as vice-president. But he recited it from memory. And that's quite a lengthy oath as you know. I haven't seen any history books that's got that in it, but I know that is correct. He had it memorized.

BIRDWHISTELL: That was quite a swearing-in for Kentucky. I know Justice Reed swore in vice-president Barkley and then Chief Justice Vinson swore in Truman.

CRUTCHER: Yes, that's right.

BIRDWHISTELL: Quite a representation there.

CRUTCHER: Well, the Kentucky Ball was held that night. I was there and went to 01:52:00the Kentucky Ball and Truman and Barkley and Vinson was with them and they had gone to the other balls. Of course, it's customary for the president and vice-president, but they ended up at the Kentucky Ball and stayed there 'til almost daylight. And Kentucky had the real ball. Of course, I would think they spent quite a bit of time at the Missouri Ball, but I know that's where they ended up--at the Kentucky Ball and Fred Vinson was with them.

BIRDWHISTELL: Were you surprised when Mr. Vinson was appointed chief justice of the Supreme Court? Did you talk with him after the appointment on that?

CRUTCHER: Yes. The president asked him to accept the job. I don't think he sought the job. But of course, he being a lawyer and of course the chief justice 01:53:00of the Supreme Court is generally considered the second highest office. As a matter of fact, the first time I went to see Mr. Vinson, Cal Halley, who had been one of his secretaries told me, "Now, you should address him as Mr. Chief Justice." And there's only two people that you address with the Mr. and that's Mr. President and Mr. Chief Justice. That's the only people that actually, I think, according to protocol which you affix the Mr. before their name. Of course, when I got over there I might have said Mr. Chief Justice when I talked to the marshal to get in, but when I got inside I don't think I called him Mr. Chief Justice. [Chuckle] I just called him Mr. Vinson or Fred. But I would say 01:54:00that accepting the position on these judgeships and leaving politics, I would say that finances and his family had something to do with it. Because if you try to live in Washington on a salary and particularly with the many functions you are required to go to and those expenses, I know that Mr. Vinson did not leave much of an estate. I knew that when I heard of his death. I went to the funeral at Louisa. He was a member of the Methodist Church. We had two Methodist churches in Louisa. One was the Methodist Church South and one was the Methodist Church North. Actually the Methodist Church South was in the north end of town 01:55:00and the Methodist Church North was in the south end of town. But he was a member of the Methodist Church South and there were so many people at the funeral that the church was filled long before the ceremony. And I went over and I recall where Mr. Vinson used to sit in the courthouse yard. He loved to talk to people, and I sat over on a bench with a blind man by the name of Ernest Compton. I think he's still living there. And while the funeral ceremony went on I did do this. Because of my attachment and love for the man, about two years ago I went to Louisa with my two sisters. My family is buried in the same cemetery. My father and mother and our family has lots in the same cemetery where Mr. Vinson 01:56:00is buried at Louisa. And they built the road where it goes right around his monument. And at that time it was not blacktopped, it was graveled. And I know that I went to the car and got some clean cloths and I cleaned off the monument. There was so much dust on it and so forth. I thought then about me when I was a boy cleaning his spittoons down at the Big Sandy River. And if I go back again, I expect to clean that monument. Of course, understand now that they may have the road paved. But it goes right by the Vinson monument at Louisa. He was a great man. He was strong in his convictions. And really and truly as I doubt if 01:57:00history has recorded the greatness that was in Mr. Vinson, particularly as I keep repeating his concern for the average citizen. In other words, the president of General Motors or United States Steel had no effect on Fred Vinson. But if you would go in or I would go in or the average fellow would, he would register more in his heart and his thoughts than would big business. In that respect, I would repeat again that I think that there was a lot in common, a lot of parallel things of Fred M. Vinson and Harry S Truman and I think that bond 01:58:00drew them close together to the same and certain respects as he was close to F.D.R. Of course, I know he was very close to both the presidents of the United States. I never heard him say who he thought was the greatest president. I know that he called Franklin D. Roosevelt "the Champ". Of course, I know that he thought a lot of Harry Truman, too. And in conclusion I would say to you that in my opinion what this nation needs today is a Fred M. Vinson or a Harry S Truman. Somebody who is concerned with the average person and their welfare.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, Mr. Crutcher, I appreciate your sharing these recollections with us and the insights you've given us into Mr. Vinson's life. It's a very interesting story as you relate it. Thank you very much.

[End of Interview]

W. E. Crutcher by Terry L. Birdwhistell - Jean Schmeisser