Interview with Althea Swinford Hutton, March 28, 1975

HUTTON: --places to begin is, um, I had the pleasure of knowing his family, and they were just lovely, homespun, good people, you know. And his mother had come from across the Big Sandy River in West Virginia. And her people in West Virginia were Republicans. And she was a Ferguson, and they were right strong people over there. There was a lot of her life that I didn't know anything about, you know, before Louisa. Where I met the Vinsons was in Louisa. His mother had the drive and that's where he got it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right?

HUTTON: Yes, she did. And his daddy was just a lovely, comfortable old 00:01:00man to be with. And Fred was just like an eagle, you know his eyes. He was looking to every direction. [Laughter] And he had a brother Bob that was easygoing and good-natured. And that's the way the family was. They were just easygoing. And his daddy liked my husband pretty much. So when we'd go to Louisa, they had a couple hotels there, and we stayed with them sometimes. Several times Mrs. Vinson would come get us and have us come to her house and live in the room that used to be Fred's. And they had these little bookcases 00:02:00which he had made when he was in school. Virginia, our daughter, was small. We just took a dresser drawer and put it on the table, and she slept in that [laughter] while staying there many times.

BIRDWHISTELL: So you would say that Mr. Vinson's mother was a pretty large influence on him?

HUTTON: She was a very forceful woman, a very forceful woman. And I know that Mr. Vinson's wife, Roberta, was a lovely person. See we were in that era, the flapper era you know, when they'd just begun to cut their hair. And I had hair clear down to the bottom of my dresses. And so Hubert, my husband, was up there at Louisa and he wrote, "Roberta had her hair cut." Said, "What about you?" So I had my hair cut. Well it like to have killed him when he saw me. 00:03:00And Mrs. Vinson didn't believe in people cutting their hair. And so I was really afraid to go to Louisa with my hair cut. And I put on a hat and put it all down over my head [laughter] so she wouldn't see me. Because she really let you know how she felt about things. I think Fred was very much like his mother. So how my husband got connected with Vinson -- I was young. You might not believe it, but at that time I was right young. [Laughter] It was in the early '20s.

[Interruption in taping]

BIRDWHISTELL: Let's see, you were talking about the early '20s. And when your 00:04:00husband first --

HUTTON: Oh, yes. Well how that came about, we hadn't been married very long, and my husband was a very unusual person. I realize so much more every day about what a wonderful person he was, unusual person. Well, I did kind of recognize the ways, but -- that was when W. J. Fields had been congressman, so he knew his seat was going to be given --

BIRDWHISTELL: He became governor in '23.

HUTTON: That's right. And Vinson was one of the contenders and so he had it pretty well lined up. But Harrison County could throw it either way. So he came down here and he made an offer to take someone as an aide with him and, of 00:05:00course, with the idea that he would be trained and go on which would have been that way. Well anyhow the political bosses down here thought of Hubert. And so they had it all lined up and asked him to come down there and asked him if he'd go to Washington. And so we said yes and we went. It's right amusing to think about Vinson when we went to Washington. We were like four little lost ducks or something up there on the hill. We went up to tour around, to see where the Capitol was and which was the front side. [Laughter] And that was the four of 00:06:00us. We wandered around up there. I suppose Mr. Vinson thought it looked like an oyster and he would take it, but we didn't know that. [Laughter]

BIRDWHISTELL: What type of job did your husband do for Mr. Vinson? HUTTON: Well he was chief aide. But I want to tell you the gift he had was in organization and in writing. He could portray anything and make you believe black was white on the paper. He was a quiet-mannered person. You wouldn't realize it but that pen of his could really do it. And I think he was a wonderful aide to Mr. Vinson in getting him established through the office. He really was.

BIRDWHISTELL: Do you recall some of the political bosses that you mentioned here in Cynthiana?

HUTTON: Yes I do. There was Mr. Jim Rees.

BIRDWHISTELL: Jim Rees?

HUTTON: Yes, and Mr. John Landrum. And then Mac Swinford was kind of -- things were going just a little differently, but he took lumbago and was in bed when they were making the final settlements.

BIRDWHISTELL: How was Mr. Vinson able to win support here in Harrison County? Did he make --

HUTTON: Just by taking Hubert with him.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right?

HUTTON: Yes. That's what threw the switch. See, they decided if they could send a representative from here, that it would be good. That's the way it went. But Mr. Vinson's strategy -- he was always full of strategy. Before we 00:08:00got to Washington he went over in Nicholas County and picked up another boy who was a nice fellow, but it didn't do us too much good to have two up there, you know. In fact, I think -- this young man was from Nicholas County. And that put Vinson in good in Nicholas County, too. But of course Hubert was his chief aide and this boy wanted to go up to law school in Washington, and so he just kind of had a little part-time job. And that was that. And then Mr. Vinson, when he got to Washington of course he took hold right away. I mean he got on good committees. I know he went on the Ways and Means Committee, pretty good 00:09:00committees all the time.

BIRDWHISTELL: Do you think he enjoyed his job up there?

HUTTON: Oh yes. He loved it. Of course, I realize that he was looking forward all the time. And it was bad times in Washington. It was completely Republican you know for so many years and the Depression and everything else.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did your husband help Mr. Vinson in his campaigns when he came back for reelection?

HUTTON: Yes. He always helped him. He even went to -- you see, when Al Smith ran Hubert went to St. Louis and they were going to manage his campaign.

BIRDWHISTELL: So he went with Mr. Vinson out to St. Louis?

HUTTON: Oh yes. He went everywhere, because I mean he was very helpful. And then when Mr. [Alben] Barkley ran, you know, he was always with them, and I think Mr. Vinson was state chairman for Mr. Barkley. And my husband was 00:10:00executive secretary or something with Vinson. [?] Dailey was state senator.

BIRDWHISTELL: What type of campaigner was Mr. Vinson? What type of campaign style did he use?

HUTTON: Well he wasn't as -- Now Barkley was a little more of the old-fashioned, and Vinson bordered on that side. But I think Vinson's main thing was seeing opportunities. He was very keen. I know one of the best things that ever happened to Mr. Vinson was meeting and becoming a close friend of Harry Truman. They were congressmen, and they became very close friends. And, of course, that paid off politically.

BIRDWHISTELL: When you first went to Washington with the Vinsons in the '20s, did Vinson socialize a lot in Washington?

HUTTON: Well, not yet but they began to. And we were very close. But, of course, their children were young. They had a son about the age of my daughter. Well, they lived at the hotel there and all, and Mrs. Vinson would come and go from home there often, and she brought her girl (helper for children) from Louisa with her who stayed with them always through Washington.

BIRDWHISTELL: Do you think Mrs. Vinson enjoyed the social life in Washington?

HUTTON: She did, she did.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did you know her parents?

HUTTON: Yes I knew them. They were lovely people.

BIRDWHISTELL: What type of relationship did Fred Vinson have with her family? Was it very close?

HUTTON: Well, Louisa's a small town. Mr. Dixon I think had a -- I believe he was a wholesale grocer. They had a nice home there. And Roberta was a very lovely girl. They had more social life than in Louisa, but you know in a little town everybody's warm.

BIRDWHISTELL: Going back to the 1928 election with Al Smith. Of course Mr. Vinson was defeated that year. Do you think he was surprised that he was defeated in that election?

HUTTON: Well, things got out of hand you see. They went to St. Louis and 00:13:00managed the campaign. And so they saw that -- they just folded their tents and came home. They saw it was all over long before the campaign ever got too good a start, because you could see the tide coming in.

BIRDWHISTELL: Why do you think Vinson stuck with Al Smith so long when, obviously the people in Kentucky weren't supporting him and it was going to hurt his chances?

HUTTON: Well he was a Democrat and that's the choice of the people, of the Democratic people. And they put him up and he was that kind of man. He was a party man, you know.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well did your husband continue to work for Mr. Vinson after he came back in '28?

HUTTON: No, that's where we made the mistake of our life, I guess. But when he was defeated, of course, we just all came home. And so my husband, well 00:14:00I can't say whatever happened except we were going through great turmoil in our family at that time with illnesses and deaths and things. And he was a very sensitive kind of man, and we had, you know, just things were bad. And right out of the clear sky it was time to go back to Washington, and we just didn't go.

BIRDWHISTELL: You didn't go back in 1930?

HUTTON: We didn't go back. So that's what I say. When he began to go up, I wasn't with him too much. But I could see a great change in Mr. Vinson. I didn't see too much of him but --

BIRDWHISTELL: What kinds of changes?

HUTTON: Well he had gotten to the place where he was becoming a big man you know and many demands on him. And if he had a fault it was that anything that was accessible or available, it was used. He made use of it in whatever way would promote his cause. That sometimes takes the kindness out of people in a way. But he, as I say, was a party man. He was doing what he thought he had to do, and he was a professional politician by now so he really went fast to the top.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well several people have mentioned that he was a very ambitious person. Do you think that's so?

HUTTON: Yes he was. I've mentioned it. And I think it was his doctrine 00:16:00that the, if the end was -- any means you know would justify that end. And I mean by any, I think any. Although, he was an honest man. Now he was not a dishonest man ever. And he wasn't a man that would take bribes and things like that either. He was straight like that. But the game he was playing, he was playing to win you know.

BIRDWHISTELL: I suppose when he came back to Harrison County during the '30s to campaign you and your husband saw him then?

HUTTON: Oh yes. He never had that much reason to come back too much.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did you notice a change in his campaign style over the years when he was coming back through here?

HUTTON: Well after he -- let's see now if I have those dates right. I lose myself in those '30s, they were so horrible. But I can't think of any big campaigns that he had to take part in.

BIRDWHISTELL: Just his campaigns for reelection say in '32 and '34.

HUTTON: Oh no, he didn't have any trouble with that.

BIRDWHISTELL: After your husband left his staff, how was he able to again carry the western part of his district?

HUTTON: Well, he was established. And after -- you know it just gets to be a habit, and the people had nothing against him. And so he had it made. And then of course there were changes. This thing when he went to Washington, he 00:18:00went with the old Eighth District. And then during a time it became the Sixth District, you know. When did Truman go in as president?

BIRDWHISTELL: In '45.

HUTTON: Well then of course he began to get these big appointments.

BIRDWHISTELL: He left the Congress in '38. Did he ever talk with your husband about his decision to leave Congress?

HUTTON: I don't know, he got a little restless. It was drug out a good long time there you see. And I think there were times in his life when he kind 00:19:00of thought he might be governor or something like that and give up, but he couldn't do that. When it would come to it, I mean you know he didn't want to do that. And then he began to get these appointments. As you notice he never went to Senate or anything like that. I forget the first ones. During the war he had some.

BIRDWHISTELL: He became economic stabilizer and then director of War Mobilization.

HUTTON: That's right, that what it was. And he was busy in Washington the rest of his life. And even one time he was treasurer [Secretary of Treasury] for a while.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did you and your husband ever visit with him when he held these positions?

HUTTON: Oh yes. My husband did. I didn't visit with him much because I forgot the way back. [laughter] I got too busy with my home life.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did Mr. Vinson ever discuss with you and your husband Kentucky politics and his relationship with people like Governor [Albert B.] Chandler and John Y. Brown[, Sr.]?

HUTTON: I don't remember, though Hubert knew every move he made, and he and Hubert would keep in close touch. He used to write to Hubert and things like that. I don't know that I read any of it much, but Hubert knew politics pretty well. But as I say, by the time he got the ball, he carried it. With the exception of the election when Al Smith ran. If it hadn't been for Al Smith, there wouldn't have been any break in there at all.

BIRDWHISTELL: I think later Governor Fields came back and opposed Vinson for his congressional seat. Was there any strain on their relationship after that?

HUTTON: Oh yes. And I think Fields -- It was his place and Mr. Fields favored Vinson. And he was a friend of Mrs. Vinson's father and all. And he really favored Mr. Vinson and it always hurt me when -- you know why then you would not give them the same consideration they gave you, but it can't be in politics. But that's why it's hard to be in --

BIRDWHISTELL: So you think there was a strain on their relationship after that?

HUTTON: Oh yes.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did Vinson ever mention anything to you or your husband about --

HUTTON: Oh I'm sure that my husband knew every thought he had, but I didn't. My interests weren't there at that age and time. I was too involved in 00:22:00my own family life.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, I think you've given some good insights into his personality.

HUTTON: Well, I don't know too much that I can give. I don't want to ever say anything that would be the wrong thing, but I found him very interesting and I think he had a wonderful, just an unusual kind of life. And if he had an opportunity, he knew it and took it you know. And it was very different from the way we handled Washington. Had we handled Washington as he did, my husband would have been in the Senate pretty soon. [Laughter] He could have been in Congress in his party. And it really hurt the people that sponsored him I think that he fell by the wayside, because he didn't have to. 00:23:00It was just a mistake.

BIRDWHISTELL: So your husband just decided not to continue on --

HUTTON: Yes, it was an awful strain in many ways.

BIRDWHISTELL: There wasn't ever any break between your husband and Mr. Vinson over issues was there?

HUTTON: Oh, no, no, no. I think it was an awful shock to Mr. Vinson when Hubert didn't come back. Now when I look at it I don't know why in the world he let him not come back. Because he was a person that knew more what it meant, and I believe had he been a different type of person, if he had been so 00:24:00interested in Hubert as he seemed, they had a love for each other. But he didn't have that in him to reach out and help people much you see. He was going on. If they went fine. If they didn't fine. But he didn't have that kind of nature.

BIRDWHISTELL: Why do you think he had this drive in politics? Do you think he had some things he wanted to do to help people or was he interested in just running office?

HUTTON: Well, this speaks of how he always was, and I can see that's true how he always was interested in what was going on. Now you take a little town, the courthouse and the county seat and all those things are the colorful part of life. And early he became interested in that and then he went to Centre 00:25:00[College] and became a lawyer, and he was making a good lawyer. I think he was a right good criminal lawyer, would have been. And then he, I guess he ran for, oh --

BIRDWHISTELL: Commonwealth attorney?

HUTTON: Commonwealth attorney and he had great success. And that was one of the greatest things in his life. He showed you figures and showed you how this was and that. I didn't know one precinct from another up there. But he did carry it big. And that was, you know, just a title to him. And then of course when this came along early in his life and by political maneuvering and all he got this start and he never faltered. He went right on. He went right on, full steam ahead.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, is there anything we haven't talked about that you'd like to add to this interview now?

HUTTON: I regret that we didn't follow through. It would have been a very wonderful thing. But you know there's an awful lot in politics that's not too good. And I guess maybe it's better not to. And of course Mr. Vinson broke and became disabled way ahead of what he should have. He was a strong, stalwart man. I hadn't seen him too much before, too many years before. But I understood that for so long he had looked so bad and the strain was on him. It was too much of a strain.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well do you think he just worked too hard?

HUTTON: I don't know. That life was hard. And then when you get to be chief justice of the United States, I imagine there certainly is some pressure on you, you know. It was just hard. And I imagine decisions and trying to do what you think is the right thing and opposition to a lot of things that your friends and other people in your state don't want and all, it's hard. And I think it's a killing job.

BIRDWHISTELL: When you and your husband were with him in Washington in the '20s, what other congressmen did he seem to be closest to? Was it the Texas congressman?

HUTTON: Yes, now wait just a minute. Oh, who was Chapman?

BIRDWHISTELL: Virgil Chapman?

HUTTON: Yes, Virgil and oh, there were quite a bunch of them. We were 00:28:00friends. We were all friends you know in Washington.

BIRDWHISTELL: He seemed to be very close to the rest of the Kentucky delegation?

HUTTON: Well, they were all interested in what each other was doing, of course. And when you get a bunch of Kentuckians isolated they will get together you know. [Laughter] I never heard of any wrongdoings in Mr. Vinson's career. I mean he was straight forward. And I think that you could know when he died and left no estate that he hadn't taken any bribes or anything.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is there anything else you would like to add?

HUTTON: Well, I can just say that I think he was an unusual man, and I think that as far as people in politics go, I think he was a good man. And I do think he had a delightful, wonderful family. They're all gone as far as I know. But I don't think there are many of them left.

BIRDWHISTELL: There are his children of course.

HUTTON: He has two sons. I never knew Jim Bob much. I knew Fred. He and my daughter used to play together. I hope I've helped you some.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yes you have.

HUTTON: The only thing is that I'm a kind of vague person anyway. But it was a wonderful experience as I think of the first days in Washington with the Vinsons. It seemed like the almost supreme concern how his life went on and how it just was like a fairy tale or something. And there were so many slow years in there, too, you know that nothing seemed to happen much.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, thank you.

HUTTON: Well, it's been a pleasure. I'm glad to talk to you, if you can get anything out of that ramble.

[End of Interview]

Althea Swinford Hutton by Terry L. Birdwhistell - Jean Schmeisser