Interview with John Young Brown, March 9, 1976

BROWN: You play golf?

BIRDWHISTELL: Yes, uh huh. Occasionally, whenever I get the chance.

BROWN: I got hit in the mouth with a golf ball Sunday out here at the Lexington Country Club.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right?

BROWN: And the boy hit a long hook from off 17 down below the hill into number 1 at the country club and just at the end of its journey--I thought I'd been shot cause the blood started spurting out.

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh, I bet that hurt.

BROWN: And, uh, I didn't know it was a golf ball and I look down there and there's a golf ball and it's got some blood on it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Wow. You know, I always worry about that when you're on the par 3 and you let somebody hit though.

BROWN: Mmhmm.

BIRDWHISTELL: You know, and that--I always try to get behind the golf bag or something.

BROWN: That's right.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, Mr. Brown, to begin with in talking about Fred Vinson, I'd like for you if you could to recall when you first met Mr. Vinson and what your first impressions were of him as an individual.

BROWN: My first meeting with Fred was at the Woodland Auditorium State 00:01:00Democratic Convention and my first observation of him was when Ben Johnson and Billy Klair and some of the rest of them agreed to be for "Happy" [A. B. Chandler] for Lieutenant Governor when [Ruby] Laffoon was nominated, and I think he was nominated in 1931. And Fred Vinson undertook -- and he almost swayed that whole convention to take it away from them for Jack Howard from up in his country. Jack Howard lived in Prestonsburg. That's my first observation. He broke with the leadership and supported Jack Howard and came darn near electing him. But I didn't get to know him until the 1932 congressional race when Fred 00:02:00was a member of the nine that the state administration supported with [Alben] Barkley in the middle when he ran for state-at-large. And there were twenty-eight of us in the race. And I broke the slate. Of course, I was an outsider, and I went to Congress as an outsider. I supported [Henry T.] Rainey and Fred and the others supported [John] McDuffie of Alabama [for Speaker of the House]. And Fred and I had some run-ins at that time on the floor of the House. I recall one time that I made a statement on some remark that he had made about me the day before that from now on before he could put anything in Congressional Record would have to let me read it or I was going to object to him putting anything in. But anyway after that we got on friendly terms. That was just a 00:03:00matter of political alignments. And Fred was a tremendously able person. As a matter of fact we're graduates of the same college, you know.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right. I wanted to ask you about that. Of course he graduated, I guess, about ten years before you did.

BROWN: Considerably before I did.

BIRDWHISTELL: I was wondering if anybody around Centre when you were there still talked of Fred Vinson?

BROWN: Well he was known as the star shortstop. And he could well have played pro baseball except that he elected to become a lawyer. Yes, at that time, of course, we had an era of super athletes then. We didn't have much of a baseball team, but we had a top football team, one of the top ones in the 00:04:00nation. We also had a basketball team that in 1919 won the Southern Championship. And in 1920 when [the University of] Kentucky won, I think it was '21, when Bill King shot two fouls after the buzzer sounded to win the Southern Championship. Centre beat them one game and they beat Centre one. Of course, Centre was an independent college you know. But Fred's name was known over there as being an outstanding baseball player, also as an outstanding student, because Fred was a straight "A" student in college which was something I never could claim. I would occasionally make an "A", but then the average wasn't that good.

BIRDWHISTELL: When you were in law school at the University of Kentucky in Lexington, I think Fred Vinson first went to Congress. Do you have any 00:05:00recollections as a law student of that period of Mr. Vinson's life in Congress in the mid '20s to late '20s?

BROWN: Mid '20s, no, because other than governor's races and presidential races the law school didn't show too much interest in the district congressional races. And I have no memory until you come to the convention of 1931 in which Laffoon was nominated for governor.

BIRDWHISTELL: I just wanted to ask you about 1928. Perhaps you recall Vinson's role as state campaign chairman for Al Smith.

BROWN: Well I was Al Smith's Young Man's Chairman here in Fayette County. And I recall how bitter the religious prejudice was then because I worked the precinct. And people that I knew wouldn't even speak to me. They'd 00:06:00walk by. They didn't want to say anything to me.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right?

BROWN: That's right. It was because of Al Smith. Joe Bradley, a very devout Catholic who was my law partner, and myself worked the precinct together out where he lived. And we couldn't get people we knew well. They'd turn their heads and walk by. They just didn't want to talk about it. They knew that the Pope was going to set up headquarters in Washington as soon as Al Smith was elected.

BIRDWHISTELL: You know in that election in 1928 Vinson's role with Al Smith, some people say, caused him to lose his own seat in Congress in 1928.

BROWN: Well they all -- look, it caused everybody to lose their seat. The only Republican ever elected from this district was elected in that race. Beat Virgil Chapman here in this district. Sure it cost him. And Fred could easily have saved himself, if he'd have just stayed out of the campaign and said nothing about the presidential race. But Fred wasn't that kind of a person.

BIRDWHISTELL: Some people say he was a very loyal party man.

BROWN: He was.

BIRDWHISTELL: Was there a question here of --

BROWN: He was an extremely loyal party man. But that's the one that caused our first differences. I made the last speech on the president's Economy Act. As a matter of fact, I was presiding over the House as Speaker of the House when the first bill passed, because I supported Rainey. He knew I'd been Speaker down here, and he pushed me into the chair and I reserved two minutes and I made a little talk that was carried on the "March of Time." And I called the ones on the Democratic side assassins because this was the first act of a 00:08:00new president and that in the name of the veterans they were asking people to vote against it. I made the statement I was a veteran and that I'd as soon shoot down my leader in an hour of battle as to shoot him down now. And that if someone must fire the assassin's bullet that I hoped that it wouldn't come from the Democratic side of the House. Four of our side voted against the bill, and one of them was Fred Vinson. And one was Jack Mays. One was Glover Cary. That's three of them, and I don't know who the other one was.

BIRDWHISTELL: Was it Chapman?

BROWN: Oh, Chapman voted against it. That's right. Chapman always voted with Fred. That's the fourth. That's exactly right.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did you and Mr. Vinson talk this over among yourselves at that time?

BROWN: No, no we did not. I supported Rainey. I wasn't considered a member of the Kentucky delegation by them.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did you ever get to meet with them in --

BROWN: They never invited me. I was an outsider. As a matter of fact, I recall very well that I refused to contribute because I knew that they assessed me one thousand dollars. And I said, "Why should I contribute a thousand dollars when, if you find a way to do it, you'll use it against me?" And I rode without any contributions and without their support. But you see, the [Franklin D.] Roosevelt majority was so big, there was nothing anybody could have done about it. It was like when [Herbert] Hoover ran four years before that.

BIRDWHISTELL: Was Vinson the leader of the delegation?

BROWN: Vinson was the leader of the delegation, the leader of everybody except me. I was an outsider on it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, at the time the Economy Bill came up, you first got praise from the local newspaper for your stand and from the [Louisville] Courier-Journal also.

BROWN: That's correct.

BIRDWHISTELL: They attacked Vinson and Chapman and the others for voting against it. Did you ever discuss with Vinson his reaction to Robert Worth 00:10:00Bingham's attacks on him for voting against the Economy Bill?

BROWN: No.

BIRDWHISTELL: Or could you sense his reaction to the newspaper charges?

BROWN: Of course, the truth about the matter is, politically, Fred and his side was right on that, because I never lived that down that I voted against the veterans. I had one of them that I was in school with at Centre College, a very prominent horseman in the Bluegrass, who supported me in '32. And I heard he was against me when I ran in '34. I went to see him. And I said, "I can't believe that you're against me." He said, "Yes. You voted against me." I said, "What the hell are you talking about? Do you mean to tell me you're drawing a pension?" And sort of sheepishly he said, "Up at Saratoga I got sick and the American Legion got me on the list." I said, "Hell, you don't think 00:11:00you're entitled to one do you?" And from then on I never heard another word about it from him, and he'd wound up a very close friend of mine as he had been before that time. But if it cost them some money, they all got bitter at the fellow that made the speech. They carried my talk on "March of Time," and it caused me more headaches than any other statement I ever made. I wish that I hadn't reserved that last two minutes to make that talk. [Laughter] But I did do it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Mr. Brown, I want to go back if we can to the 1931 state Democratic convention again. I have some other things I wanted to pick up on before we --

BROWN: My memory is that Fred was the chairman of that convention.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right, and gave a keynote address.

BROWN: Gave the keynote address and made a tremendously fine talk, and that's why he had such a standing with the delegates. A lot of them left their 00:12:00leaders and voted with him.

BIRDWHISTELL: So he was a very effective speaker and political organizer?

BROWN: Yes he was, tremendously effective. That's right.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did he ever get you aside and talk to you individually about supporting Jack Howard over A. B. Chandler?

BROWN: No, because I was an insignificant somebody that had only served one session in the legislature. And I had no particular standing with them in the party. And at that time nobody had any idea that I was going to be Speaker of the House because the governor and the so-called organization opposed me. And they started out being for me. And then Sheldon Glenn, who was tax commissioner, made the mistake of saying to Billy Klair, "If you think that 00:13:00young fellow that you're supporting for Speaker is going to let you in on naming the committees, you've got a big reawakening." Billy came over home and called me up to his office and said, "We're for you for Speaker, but you how it goes, don't you?" I said, "Yes, I think I do." He said, "[Maurice] Galvin and I name the committees." I said, "Billy, you mean to tell me that if I get to be Speaker, when I'm walking the street people will say, `There goes the Speaker in name, but the real Speakers are back there in Capitol Hotel.'?" He said, "It's been that way for twenty-five years." I said, "I'm sorry but it won't be that way this year." "Well," he said, "we'll pick another Speaker." I said, "Maybe you will and maybe you won't, because I'm going to run anyway on any event." They had it all set up to take it away from me, and I went up to see my old friend Judge Allie Young. And Billy walked out, and he just grunted as he passed me. Senator Young said, "He was up here to get me against you for 00:14:00Speaker." He said, "Now tomorrow we're meeting old man Ben [Johnson] at Frankfort." And said, "If we can't make an organization, no use a running, if they've got them all tied up." So we me old man Ben and Judge Allie told him that if Klair and Galvin control the governor, that if they control the Speaker of the House, that they might find themselves set out too. So they set in and finally they had to withdraw their candidate. But in any event, I had no occasion even to talk to him during that convention. I met him and I very seriously doubt if he even knew who I was.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did you see Vinson's opposition to Chandler here as a feud beginning between Vinson and Chandler perhaps? Was this where it began?

BROWN: No, I don't think it was. I don't think that Fred had anything against Happy. But at that time Judge Young was for Jack Howard. And Fred 00:15:00always was closer to people in that district, because at that time they were in his congressional district. See they've switched these congressional districts around a lot since that time. He wanted a man from his area, and I don't think he had anything against Happy then. Now I don't think that he ever was a great admirer of Happy's.

BIRDWHISTELL: In later campaigns?

BROWN: Even later, no. He would support him when he had the nomination, because as I say Fred was a regular. And he wasn't going to be against somebody, and really, I was unfair to Fred in thinking that he was going to try to cut me out, because that's the last thing he would have done after I got the nomination. But I didn't always use good sense and didn't in that instance.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well in the 1932 race that we talked about a few minutes ago, there was a redistricting and there was a slate of Democratic candidates. And you ran against the slate, so to speak?

BROWN: It started out in districts, and I was running against Virgil.

BIRDWHISTELL: Virgil Chapman.

BROWN: And a three-judge federal court declared our redistricting unconstitutional. And Judge [?] Ford was then circuit judge down at Frankfort. We had a hearing down before him. And all of the other candidates' lawyers said we ought to have a convention because you couldn't do it this way. And I was the last one and I made my own argument, and I could see Judge Ford smiling when I was doing it. And I set out a way this could be done. Give them nine votes, 00:17:00which is the number of districts we had. If they voted them all for one, it was the same as nine votes for one. If they voted for three, all right. If they voted for more than nine, it'd spoil their ballot. They hadn't voted for anybody. And he had already written out his decision and went right straight down the line the way I suggested it could be done, and we did it. That way I made 110 counties and I had ten days to make it in. I averaged ten counties a day. All I'd do was drive through and leave some of them posters. I never will forget Russellville, Kentucky where Tom Rhea was against me. I got in there at six o'clock in the morning and nobody was up. I saw a groceryman. See, I had led the fight against the sales tax in the legislature at that time. I saw a 00:18:00groceryman sweeping his front walk. I drove up and pulled over and I said, "Is there anybody here for John Y. Brown?" He said, "Wait a minute." He went in and got his newspaper. He had an ad in there which said, "I have eggs, and I have ham, and I have," and he named a number of vegetables, "but I don't give a damn if you don't buy any of them. Vote for John Y. Brown." [Laughter] And he'd put that in the paper that week. Well, I'm the only one of the twenty-eight that even came close, and I broke the slate and got to go.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well did Vinson try and talk you out of making the race?

BROWN: No, no. I was simply one of twenty-eight. He didn't have any idea that I had a prayer to break the slate.

BIRDWHISTELL: So you really didn't have any communication with him?

BROWN: None whatever, no. I didn't have any with Barkley. And Barkley 00:19:00was in the middle of it and was making speeches for the slate. And Fred was making speeches for the slate. And Jack was, and all the rest of them. The only one that I had any conversation -- well I didn't have that. But my chairman in Floyd County -- It was apparent that I was going to beat Jack May in Prestonsburg, and he made a trade with my chairman that if we would let him have the six precincts in Prestonsburg so he wouldn't look bad with the state administration, he'd give me six precincts. And when the last twelve were out, I had a 2,500 lead. They counted two precincts in Prestonsburg and the slate got 1,200 and I didn't get any. And I called my chairman and I said, "Well Herb, what on earth is going -- " "Oh," he said, "don't get excited. They got six precincts and we got six. We got just as many ballots in ours as they've 00:20:00got in theirs." And when they got through counting it was so low that by agreement they just didn't certify the county. They left it out.

BIRDWHISTELL: There were 1,200 votes to none?

BROWN: In two precincts 1,200 to nothing. And in my precinct it was the same way. The slate didn't get any votes out of all of them. They stuffed them the night before. And the people that came to vote they thought they were voting, but actually they weren't. That's not the boxes they counted.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well what then was your first encounter with Mr. Vinson after your election? What was his reaction to your victory in '32?

BROWN: Well as a matter of fact none of the members asked me to be for McDuffie and I assume that they guessed that I wouldn't be for him anyway. Because there wasn't any use of me being in a camp where he had eight votes and my added one wouldn't mean anything. And when I walked into Rainey's office and said, "I'm a new congressman from Kentucky." He said, "Why young man, you're 00:21:00confused. The Kentucky delegation is for McDuffie." And I said, "Well Mr. Rainey, they didn't elect me. They tried to keep me from getting here. And I'm going to be for you." And I worked a month on that thing with him. There were 169 young members, and not to get off on my part of that, but the day before I said to the group including old man [Robert L.] Doughton up in North Carolina and the leaders in Congress, "What about Louisiana?" Mr. Rainey said, "No use bothering with them. Huey Long hates me. I opposed him at the convention in Chicago." Well I said, "Do you mind if I see if I can do anything about it?" He said, "You're just wasting your time." Well that night I went down to Huey's. I lived at the Broadmore and he lived there. And he's the first fellow I looked up when I got there. Because he had done a fantastic job in his argument before the Democratic Convention. He had his law partner there and 00:22:00they were drinking, and at that time I never took anything to drink. He introduced me to his law partner and they started telling me stories about how they used to fix cases when they were practicing law down there. I sat there for about an hour listening to their stories and finally Huey said, "Son," I was one of the two youngest members of Congress, said, "Did you want to see me about something?" I said, "Yes, Senator. I'm very much interested in Mr. Rainey for Speaker." He just hit the ceiling. He said, "That son of a bitch. He couldn't get a half of a vote in Louisiana." I never said another word. I just sat there and I listened to them and they told me some more stories. Finally I said, "Well Senator, my wife will have dinner ready for me and I better leave. I've got to go." He said, "Son, let me tell you something. You go back and tell that son of a bitch Rainey that he couldn't get half of a vote in Louisiana, but you can get half of them." So I went back and reported to our meeting. And Rainey said, "I'll never believe it." When they called Louisiana 00:23:00the spokesman said, "Louisiana splits, half for Rainey, half for McGuffie." So we got half of it. And that was a close race. That was very meaningful. And that as much as anything is the reason I'm the only -- though Tom O'Mally was there with me from Wisconsin. The first day that the House was in session for the purpose of passing legislation was the president's Economy Act. And I was the Speaker. I was there through the entire session. And I asked the clerk to reserve me two minutes, the last two minutes. And I'd heard everybody's speeches and what they were all saying and how they crying about how this was mistreating the veterans and that's why in that two minutes I put that in. And as I say that's caused me more headaches than any speech I ever made. But at the time it was very appropriate.

BIRDWHISTELL: That's a fascinating story. I'm glad you shared that.

BROWN: I'll tell you another thing about it, too. It was on account of 00:24:00Rainey and the fact that he tried to help me every way. I'm the only young member in the history of Congress, the only first-termer, that ever gave the Memorial Day address. And the second year that I was there he picked me to represent the Democratic side and give the Memorial address. You know the banks were all closed at that time and when the Guarantee of Bank Deposit Act came in it provided that national banks would be immediately guaranteed and state banks when they had been examined and approved. And the people from Citizens Fidelity representing state banks came up to see the Kentucky delegation. And Fred told them he was sorry but there was nothing they could do for them. Said, "It's coming in under a closed rule and you can't amend it."

BIRDWHISTELL: That's the gag rule, right?

BROWN: That's right. Well you can call it a gag rule, it's the same thing. They'd come to see me. And I don't know you can't do anything about it. So I said, "Well I'll just find out." So I went to Mr. Rainey and I said, "Mr. Rainey, my state bankers are up here and they say it's going to take two years to examine the state banks, and they'll all be closed in the mood that the public's in when they're not guaranteed and the others are. People will move their money out of them." And I said, "Isn't there some way I can amend that bill?" He said, "Yes. When the last line is read you're allowed to offer one amendment, the House is, and they're given five minutes to explain it." He said, "Of course they never passed one of them, but you stand out in front and you jump up and I'll recognize you." So I jumped up and he recognized me. They were jumping up from all over the House, but I was recognized. I offered my amendment. They read it. By that time all 435 members of the House were on the 00:26:00floor. My amendment said, "This act shall not take effect until all state banks have been examined and their applications either approved or rejected." That brought them all in together. Now I got five minutes. And it happened you had no loud speaking equipment. They reason Rainey gave for picking me for the Memorial Day address was that there were only four voices in the House that fit that hall, and I was one of the four. You could hear me all over the House. And my little five-minute talk was very simple. I said, "This act, the way it's written closes every state bank in America, because the mood the people are in now, they're not going to leave their money in a bank that's not guaranteed when they've got one they can get a guarantee on." I said, "If you vote against this amendment and you go home and meet your state banker on the street and he asks you, `Why did you close me down?' don't tell him you didn't know it, because I'm telling you now." My amendment passed by an overwhelming majority, and they all 00:27:00went in together. And I'm telling you it was the fact that I was a loner and supported Rainey who was fantastically helpful. You got a million and a half acres of forest land in Kentucky. It's my amendment on a bill that was coming in under closed rule, the Civilian Conservation Corps Bill. I went down to see Rex [Tugwell]. The way I got acquainted with him was that some Republican one afternoon made -- after all the business is over it's open season for five-minute talks -- make a speech denouncing the Brain Trust. And no Democrat undertook to answer him and I did. And I reviewed the fact that during the Spanish-American War we had a Meat Trust where you mixed sawdust with meat and fed it to the soldiers. Then later you had a Bankers Trust, and then you had a Power Trust, and then you had a Steel Trust and that I couldn't see anything 00:28:00particularly wrong with substituting for all these other trusts that were a part of our past history for a change to have a Brain Trust. Rex read that and called me from the Agriculture Department and wanted me to come down and see him. I went down and saw him. And he was more help to me. I used to meet with Rex and his group out at Georgetown. They were the young radicals out there. As a matter of fact Alger Hiss always met with them. And I'd go down and see Rex, and I said, "Look, we got land in Kentucky that the coal companies will give you to get it off the tax roll. Your population is in the east, and the only forest you got is in the Rocky Mountains and it will cost you more to buy a ticket to send them out there than it would be to buy this land." He picked up his phone and called the president. He said, "I'm going to send a young congressman down. I want you to see him right away." He told him my name. I 00:29:00went down and got in immediately and I explained it to Roosevelt. He picked up his phone and called Jimmy Byrnes, Democratic Floor Leader. He said, "Jimmy, John Young Brown's coming over to see you. I want you to accept his amendment." And that time I didn't have to offer it to the floor. I probably would have lost it on the floor. But that time we got it in before it got out of committee. And we got a million and a half acres in Kentucky. Ten years after that the Lexington Leader carried a statement that ten years ago John Young Brown, the young congressman from Kentucky, got an amendment that created Daniel Boone National Forest. I cut that out and I've lost it in the meantime, I don't have it anymore, but even a Republican newspaper knew that it was my amendment that created the Daniel Boone National Forest.

BIRDWHISTELL: What was Mr. Vinson's reaction to you having this type of success 00:30:00with the administration and with the administration leaders?

BROWN: Well he knew that I had an in with Roosevelt. He knew that. Of course, now he never showed any resentment. The truth of the matter is Fred -- of course now he never did completely forgive me, because when he was secretary of the treasury in 1946 Bob Riggs [Washington bureau chief for the Louisville Courier-Journal] came down here and wrote an article that I was going to lose Wolfe County and going to lose Jackson up at Breathitt [County]. I knew the men that controlled them. So I went to Wolfe, and I got the group together. And they were going to support [Bill ?] Ardery. And I got a group together and I went over to Irvin Turner. I said, "Irvin, I read this article. I know the 00:31:00only way I can lose it is for you to be for Phil Ardery." "Well," he said, "I'll tell you what happened." He said, "Fred M. Vinson, secretary of the treasury said he was once my congressman. He called me long distance and asked me to be for Phil Ardery and I promised him I'd do it." But he said, "He didn't call Marie." That's his wife. She was superintendent of the schools. So I said, "Thank you a lot." I walked across the hall to Marie's office, and Marie was for me. And I carried the county. She had all the school teachers in the county. [Laughter] But Irvin didn't want to be against me, but he promised Fred.

BIRDWHISTELL: So here was Fred Vinson still keeping his hand in politics.

BROWN: He was still remembering that we had these differences in Congress. Now later we got to be very friendly. In 1944 he invited me for lunch. He was the economic czar of Roosevelt's last campaign. And that morning 00:32:00I had a conference with Roosevelt. And when Fred and I sat down to dinner I said, "Fred, the president's sick." "Oh," he said, "you've been listening to these damn Republicans." I said, "No, I just left him. And I'll guarantee he didn't know who I was. He didn't know what I was saying. If you go down there, he won't know that I'd been there." We elected a dead man in 1944. And that's why you had the awful conference and we bred World War III in that Yalta Conference when we gave all of East Germany to Russia. Most of the scientists that are doing their work now came from East Germany. They've got the 00:33:00scientists. The only ones we got are the ones that escaped, Werner [Von Braun] and his group of thirteen. But it's the sad part about electing the fellow. The palace guard never likes to give up. And that's Harry Hopkins and all of the group that was the palace guard there. And they had a Hollywood fellow come in and put makeup on him. But when I was sitting there talking to him, I know he sat there with his mouth open with saliva coming out the side. He didn't know who I was. He didn't know what I was talking about. He would say "Yes" and that's all he could say.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right?

BROWN: That's right.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well going back for a minute to your days in the House with Mr. Vinson, Fred Vinson was on the Ways and Means Committee --

BROWN: He was on the Ways and Means Committee.

BIRDWHISTELL: In a very powerful position.

BROWN: Yes.

BIRDWHISTELL: How was he able to get this powerful position in this relatively early stage in his career?

BROWN: Because Fred was a man with unusual ability on leading people and tying them to him. He had a lot of the capacities that Lyndon Johnson had. He was a great arm-twister. And he could tie people to him by doing something of no particular consequence for them. Some little something that they're interested in. And I would have to say that Fred, although even at that time he wasn't a majority floor leader, was one of the most powerful men in Congress when it came to getting support for some measure that may be was of great interest to him but not too particularly of much interest to other people. And 00:35:00look, he was the same way on the Supreme Court. He kept two factions of that Supreme Court where they were voting together.

BIRDWHISTELL: It's interesting you compared him to Lyndon Johnson. He appeared to be very close to Texas congressmen such as Sam Rayburn and Marvin Jones. Is this your impression?

BROWN: That's right.

BIRDWHISTELL: That this was a tie-in with his close friends in the House?

BROWN: Well, he was also close to the Bankheads in Alabama. And Bill Bankhead -- one of them was in the United States Senate and the other was, I think it was Bill that was floor leader after Joe Byrns. He succeeded Joe Byrns. All Alabamians then were almost under control of the Alabama Power Company. And I recall very well that on a crucial vote between the TVA [Tennessee Valley Authority] and the power companies and it was one of those 00:36:00things where you march through and they counted you, not a voice vote. I was against the power companies. I supported public power, TVA. He said, "I want you to remember that I voted on your side." [Laughter] And he did.

BIRDWHISTELL: You know this TVA is interesting. When the legislation was introduced for the TVA, I understand that you worked to include the Kentucky portions of the Tennessee and Cumberland Rivers into the program.

BROWN: I wanted it, yes.

BIRDWHISTELL: What was Vinson's position on this? Was he in favor of TVA in Kentucky?

BROWN: I don't recall whether he took any stand on that or not. I think Fred did vote to support the TVA. I believe that's right, although his connections -- As every fellow that's smart in politics, you want as many of these big interests as you can get on your side. And I didn't have sense enough 00:37:00to know that you needed them. [Laughter] I just elected to be by myself. And it's given me a right gruesome course through political life.

BIRDWHISTELL: In terms of the Agricultural Adjustment Administration, you were on the Agriculture Committee and I suppose worked in --

BROWN: Now wait a minute. Was I on -- I don't think I was on any important committee.

BIRDWHISTELL: You weren't on Agriculture?

BROWN: No, I think I was on Fish and Fisheries and something about the marine. If I was on that, I might have been. I've forgotten.

BIRDWHISTELL: I thought I saw a citation saying that, but I could be mistaken on that. [Brown did not serve on the Agriculture Committee.]

BROWN: You better look that up and see. Let me tell you something about the TVA. When the Norris bill passed the House, and the Senate passed a different version, I took the trouble to look up the conference committee, and 00:38:00it was stacked with power company representatives. And I knew [John J.] McSwain, chairman of the committee, was going to ask for this bill to go to conference when everybody was off the floor. So I didn't leave the floor for a single minute. And one afternoon there were five of us left. Mr. McSwain got up and said, "Mr. Speaker, I move that the Norris-Rankin bill go to conference." I jumped up and I said, "Mr. Speaker, how can I -- what do I do to instruct that conference committee to bring in the Norris-Rankin bill?" He said, "Well, object to it going to conference. In the morning when we open make a motion that the committee be instructed." I said, "Well I object." It couldn't go. 00:39:00So the next morning he recognized me first. I made the motion that the conference committee be instructed to bring in the Norris-Rankin bill. And it passed by an overwhelming majority. John Rankin wrote me a letter that I saved the Norris-Rankin bill. [Geoege] Norris was one of the first people I went to meet when I was there.

BIRDWHISTELL: In terms of the AAA, I wanted to ask you about Vinson's support of the tobacco interest in Kentucky. Do you feel like he was supporting tobacco interests to the point that you felt he should?

BROWN: Yes, I'm sure he did. I'll tell you. Fred supported every interest that he thought was good for Kentucky. And I'll go even further than that to say that Fred was a thinker who wouldn't want to be for something for Kentucky if it was going to hurt the rest of the United States, because you don't help a state by injuring the rest of your economy. Fred was one of the 00:40:00really intelligent members of Congress. And like every legislative body, you don't have all of them that are that way.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did he campaign against you in '34 in your race against Virgil Chapman here in the district?

BROWN: No. So far as I knew he did not. No, I'm sure he didn't. He didn't need to because the state administration took care of that. They raised a hundred thousand dollars and spent it in my race, and I didn't have anything. And at that I got more votes. I got twenty-five thousand and Virgil got thirty thousand. And it would have been possible for me to have won that race if I could have been financed. But everybody was broke then. Most of my friends were broke.

BIRDWHISTELL: Of course since you weren't representing the big interests, too, you were --

BROWN: And then I had no source that I could get campaign funds from.

BIRDWHISTELL: What about in the '35 gubernatorial campaign? You supported Chandler and Vinson was for the Rhea faction in that campaign.

BROWN: That's correct.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did he play a key role? Did you see him as playing a key role in that campaign?

BROWN: Well I really didn't. He was for Rhea and I'm sure he must have made some speeches. But I made more speeches for Happy than Happy made for himself in that campaign.

BIRDWHISTELL: Of course that was later going to come back and --

BROWN: Well the next year then -- well I had a trade with Happy you know. I went down to Versailles and I said the Courier-Journal wanted me to run for governor and I didn't want to. I wanted to be in the Senate. And I said, "Now Happy, the two of us have been together up 'til now. I don't want to be governor. You be governor and I'll run for Senate." He jumped across the table and said, "I'll consider this a binding contract." Well I made more speeches for him than he made for himself. And when he didn't have any money. Dan [Talbott?] sent me with him and at Hopkinsville we stayed in the same room to 00:42:00save money. The phone ran and Happy answered it. He said, "It's Dan. He wants to talk to you." Dan said, "I want you to come on in and go to Washington and see the president about getting us some money. Bob Bingham is back from England. We can't even pay our rent." So I came in and I went to Washington and I went in to see Roosevelt. I told him, "We're broke and we've got to have some money. Judge Bingham is over at the hotel and if you call him he'll give us some money." He said, "Well, you go on over there. I'll call him." And Judge Bingham said, "I'll give you ten thousand dollars." Well hell, that was like a hundred thousand dollars now. And that's the thing that put Happy in the 00:43:00race. But I never did have any trouble getting in to see Roosevelt. And you know one of the foolish things that happened in my life. He knew I was going to get beat, because Roosevelt was a smart politician. He wrote me in longhand from the boat taking him to Hawaii. Said, "I want you to come in to see me." And you know I lost that letter.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right?

BROWN: That's right. I went in to see him and you know what he wanted? He said, "I want you to be a part of my administration. I want you to go out and talk to [Marvin Henry] McIntyre --" "Mac" was from Simpsonville, Kentucky and was one of his secretaries -- and said, "Pick out any appointments you want." He said, "I'll give it to you." I wanted to take part in Happy's race, so what I picked out was special assistant to the attorney general with my headquarters in Lexington. So they assigned me the Burmer kidnapping trial and 00:44:00that was my first -- I was there six weeks on that. And then I came back and devoted all the rest of the summer to Happy's campaign.

BIRDWHISTELL: At least one historian has speculated that when Vinson left Congress in '38 and was appointed to the Court of Appeals in Washington that this was a move by F.D.R. to somehow keep Chandler out of the political scene. What do you understand about that?

BROWN: I know this, that F.D.R. did not like Happy. He had no respect for him.

BIRDWHISTELL: Was there any connection then in Vinson's appointment to the bench and to Chandler's political ambitions?

BROWN: Well I didn't sense it at the time. I sort of doubt if there was. He recognized Fred's ability and you know at that particular time he was having trouble with the Supreme Court.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right. And his legislation was coming up through the Washington courts.

BROWN: That's right and here's a man that's a master technician in handling human beings. And Fred handled that Supreme Court just as adroitly as 00:45:00he handled his committees in Congress.

BIRDWHISTELL: Getting late into Vinson's career, there was a lot of talk in '52 that he might be the presidential nominee and supposedly [Harry S] Truman wanted him to run. Did you ever feel that Vinson would have wanted to run for president?

BROWN: I don't think he did want to.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right?

BROWN: I don't think he did. You know he told me the story one time. In later years Fred and his wife and I got to be right friendly. He knew that I was one of the acknowledged poker players up there. And he told me about when he first went there. That game's been going on ever since Henry Clay was there. And Henry Clay once lost Ashland. [Laughter] And Fred told me when he got up there they invited him to play. And Fred was intelligent, and he said, "I first 00:46:00got deep in the hole. And I couldn't afford to quit." And then he said, "My luck changed, and I won sixteen thousand dollars that night. I couldn't call my wife. I played all night and all day. And she didn't know where I was. She was worried to death." And said, "I quit and never played again" until F.D.R. used to have him down to play with him at the White House. That's when he was economic czar. But he said, "I promised my wife when I got home that I would never play again," and said, "I kept my word."

BIRDWHISTELL: Do you have an appointment?

BROWN: Yes, I'm supposed to see --

BIRDWHISTELL: Well I appreciate you taking the time to go over this today and of course your involvement in --

BROWN: That's just conversation, but you know, during that period I was on "Happy's" side. Now my stand on that side didn't last very long and I think maybe that's why Fred and I got -- because in the next year I was the one when Happy brought [?] Beckham out I got in the race anyway, and I got ninety-one thousand votes. And that's what elected [Marvel M.] Logan. And when I'd come into his office he'd tell everybody, "Here's the man that elected me to the Senate." And of course Logan and Fred Vinson and I got to be on real friendly terms -- and all of that side, the Tom Rhea side from then on.

BIRDWHISTELL: Do you think it would be possible some time in the future at your convenience to discuss with you your relationship with Governor Chandler? We're doing a project like this.

BROWN: Oh sure.

BIRDWHISTELL: And possibly I'd like to get with you a couple of times and just talk about your career in terms of what you've done, because I think you made a 00:48:00great contribution in the area of politics and government. And if you would have the time, I'd like to just record your recollections at another date --

BROWN: Bert Combs told Johnny [?] once that I had introduced more beneficial legislation for Kentucky twenty years ahead of time than any other man in this century. What I tried to get them to do in 1930 and '32 and in my campaign in '39 for governor, Bert did 1960, twenty years later. And Bert had me down there to argue the Sales Tax Bill before the legislature. And as far as I know I'm the only outsider who was ever invited by the governor to come down and make the argument for his legislation. But in any event, I'll be glad to talk to you any time.

[End of Interview]