Interview with William A. Young, June 6, 1976

BIRDWHISTELL: Mr. Young, I thought we'd begin by finding out when you first met Senator Clements and possibly what some of your first impressions were of him and his personality, and that sort of thing.

YOUNG: Well, I first became acquainted with Senator Clements early in the gubernatorial campaign of 1947. I had not known him personally prior to that time, although I had heard a great deal about him from a friend of mine who had been associated with him in the Senate during the term immediately preceding his being elected to Congress; particularly, Martin Smith, who was very much involved in local politics, was a very close friend and staunch supporter of Senator Clements, and I think it was through him that I first met Senator Clements during his primary campaign for governor in 1947.

BIRDWHISTELL: What were your first impressions of him as a man, his personality? How did it strike you?

YOUNG: Well, Senator Clements has a very warm personality, and he comes through very well initially. He's--well, you might describe him as being a rather effusive personality, and he sort of overwhelms you on first acquaintance with him. His personality, your impression of it perhaps becomes more refined on longer acquaintance, but I don't think that it changes in any way or that undergoes any change from the first impression had of him, at least.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, you mentioned the '47 gubernatorial primary, and of course he was running against Harry Lee Waterfield at the time.

YOUNG: That's right.

BIRDWHISTELL: Were you a Clements supporter in that primary?

YOUNG: Oh, yes. Yes, I had known Harry Lee a short time before that campaign, but Franklin County went very decidedly for Senator Clements in that race, and practically all my friends in the political area were strong Clements supporters--Louis Cox, Bill May, Senator Martin Smith--and he was very well-received; he was well known and well liked and well received in Franklin County, and I was a very vigorous supporter of his, because that followed by only two years my own first political venture in the contest for county attorney of Franklin County.

BIRDWHISTELL: Do you recall some of the issues or the differences between the candidates, Clements and Waterfield, in that campaign?

YOUNG: Oh, specifically I don't recall many of the precise issues, I mean they're a little hazy [in] definition right now. I would say there was a very significant contrast in personalities between the two men. Senator Clements was a much more extroverted, well, just sort of overpowering individual in his first meeting with anyone, and Mr. Waterfield was a fine fellow but he was a little more restrained his approach, even almost to the extent maybe of giving the impression that he was a little aloof and little cold, and there was a very definite and decided contrast of personality between the two men. One of the principal issues in the campaign, as I recall, was what was known as the Good Roads Amendment or Senator Clements' dedication to the 00:04:00Constitutional amendment which permitted a larger allocation and a more precise allocation of gasoline tax revenues to the rural secondary road system in Kentucky. That's about the only real issue that I recall in the campaign, and it was not so much an issue as just a focal point of Senator Clements' candidacy.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, as you know, Democratic primaries in Kentucky tend to get bitter at times. Was there much hard feeling between the two sides after the campaign, after the primary election?

YOUNG: I don't think so. This was not--this was just a normally vigorous Democratic primary, and I don't think there was any residue of venom left following the actual primary election. Oh, there were some of the supporters of each of the candidates that felt rather harshly 00:05:00toward the other side for a brief period, but I think it was comparatively free from the animus which sometimes has characterized Democratic primary campaigns.

BIRDWHISTELL: One of the things I found interesting, and I think you're originally from Morehead--

YOUNG: That's right.

BIRDWHISTELL: --was that in Morehead and the surrounding county it was heavily Waterfield, I think, in the election, and yet Clements opened his campaign in Morehead. Do you have any insight into--possibly this was a way to bring the party back together, is that the--

YOUNG: No, I really don't, because at that time I was not really closely associated with Senator Clements. I don't know what prompted his choice of Morehead, although I think perhaps I've heard him refer to it later. I don't really recall what prompted his choice of Morehead as a site for the opening of his campaign. I think 00:06:00it was a very fortuitous choice. One of the reasons I think that Governor Waterfield had such strength in that particular area was because of the support which he received from Blaine Lane, who was president of one of the banks in Morehead at that time and a very influential citizen in that part of the county. But I recall his opening there very well. I rode up to it with Charlie O'Connell, who was, I believe, then a candidate, I believe, for--I don't know what he was running back for the Clerk of the Court of Appeals--no, I believe he was running for Secretary of State at that time; I can't recall exactly, he went back and forth between those two offices so many times. And the opening was very enthusiastic, very well attended, and was a very fine opening of his campaign.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did you find after Clements became Governor that most of 00:07:00his policies were generally well received in this area, here in Frankfort and Franklin County?

YOUNG: Yes, Franklin County is a little unusual, almost to the point of being unique among all Kentucky counties in its continuing relationship with state government, because I think every governor of the Commonwealth within my knowledge has been very well disposed toward Franklin County, and they've always had programs which included the development of Franklin County and doing things for Franklin County, and that holds true, that's still true I think even of Republican administrations as well as Democratic. I think that Franklin County has always made a practice well of getting along well with the incumbent governor.

BIRDWHISTELL: Now, as county attorney in Franklin County during his administration, 00:08:00did you work very closely with the Governor's office in terms of projects for Franklin County or any--

YOUNG: No, there really was very little opportunity or occasion to do that. I was then, as I still am, engaged in private practice, and I had a few opportunities to come in contact with the Governor's office as a consequence of practicing before administrative agencies of state government. As a matter of fact, the first occasion I recall having had any sort of a business, what you might term a business relationship, with then-Governor Clements resulted from a matter which I had pending before the Alcoholic Beverage Control Board. I believe I had made an application in behalf of some client for a retail package liquor license, and there was some indication that it wasn't being too favorably 00:09:00received by the Alcoholic Beverage Control Board or the Commissioner, who at that time I believe was Guy Shearer. And I'd heard that possibly there existed the possibility that some word had been passed down from the Governor's office which was unfavorable to my client's position. So I made an appointment to see Governor Clements, and at the time he was in bed in the mansion recuperating from a broken leg. I recall he had his leg in a cast and we were not intimately acquainted at that time it was more or less a casual acquaintanceship. A he received me in his bedroom that morning, and I very bluntly told him the purpose of my visit, and he said, "You mean you think I called Guy Shearer and I told him that?" I said, "Governor, I don't know whether you called him or not. I've just heard some rumblings that there's some opposition in the Governor's office to this application. He said, "Well, I'll put that at 00:10:00rest right away." And he reached over and picked up the telephone, and he said, "Get me Guy Shearer," and he got Guy Shearer on the telephone, he said, "Guy, Bill Young's sitting here in my bedroom discussing an application which he has pending with your agency." He said, "I want to straighten this out right now." He said, "I just want to tell you, I say I want to tell you that if his application has merit I want you to grant it. If it doesn't, why I don't want you to grant it." And he hung up the telephone, he said, "Now, does that satisfy you?" I said, "Well, not exactly, sir." But that was characteristic of the way he dealt with a situation such as that. (laughs)

BIRDWHISTELL: That's an interesting story. I think that does give a little insight into the way he handled situations and his personality.

YOUNG: Oh, he was a master at handling situations and coming out unscathed himself and still having his bidding done.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right. One of the issues that came up during Governor 00:11:00Clements' administration was an amendment to the Day Law, and I was wondering in terms of--since here in Frankfort or Franklin County you have a black college, and it was here at the time, was there any special effect on this area because of that legislation?

YOUNG: No, I think not. Franklin County, I think, when the first consequences of the Equal Rights Movement made themselves felt was again probably better situated than most counties in Kentucky as a consequence of the presence here of what is now Kentucky State University. At that time the president of that institution was Dr. Rufus Atwood. Dr. Atwood enjoyed a very fine relationship both with the administration and with the community and the people of this county, and I would say that 00:12:00the impact of the--any legislation pertaining to the Day Law and of the Equal Rights Movement at that time was almost imperceptible in Franklin County.

BIRDWHISTELL: Because of your position in the county, did Dr. Atwood ever work with you or work with the Governor in terms of this type of legislation?

YOUNG: Well, not--I worked with Dr. Atwood very closely from 19--oh, I would say from the late forties or early fifties until the time of his retirement in the early sixties, but not on a legislative basis. He always handled that directly through the Governor's office, but I represented both the college and Dr. Atwood during that period of time, and I represented Kentucky State College when the incident occurred following the burning of the gymnasium, and they expelled a large group of 00:13:00students and a couple of professors, and most of the students and the two professors filed suit against the Board of Regents and the college and the state and everyone in sight in federal court. And that action took about a year and a half to dispose of and finally came to a head in the jury trial, which lasted about a week and which was finally resolved in favor of the college and its administration.

BIRDWHISTELL: Now, that was the incident in the late sixties, is that right?

YOUNG: No, it was in the early sixties, late fifties or early sixties. I think Bell Gymnasium was burned, if memory serves me accurately, around 1961, and that was the incident which finally culminated in the expulsion of these students and the dismissal of these two professors.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, in representing Kentucky State, then, did you ever have to work with Clements or the Governor's office in any matters pertaining 00:14:00to Kentucky State or any type of--

YOUNG: No, no, my representation at Kentucky State and of Dr. Atwood and of a number of the personnel at Kentucky State was strictly on a lawyer-client relationship, and I represented many of them personally and individually as well as the colleges and institutions. So it never did involve any interrelationship between college and government.

BIRDWHISTELL: In watching Governor Clements as governor during the sessions of the General Assembly, did you consider him to be a strong governor in relation to the other governors we've had before and since?

YOUNG: I would say he was an extremely strong governor; as a matter of fact, I don't know of any governor since, and I had little personal knowledge of more than one or two governors prior to him. I would say that Governor Clements is probably the 00:15:00strongest governor that we've had within the sphere of my experience in Frankfort.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right? Well, where did his strengths lie? How did he bring about this power that he demonstrated?

YOUNG: Well, I believe that I analyze the source of Senator Clements' strength correctly in attributing it in very large measure to the man's almost infinite and inexhaustible capacity for hard work and attention to detail. Governor Clements was a very careful planner, and his energy, which was expended in the implementation of his plans, was just almost unbelievable, 00:16:00even throughout his career in the United States Senate. He was not what you would call a young man--I think he turned his sixtieth birthday during the 1956 Senatorial campaign. He had more energy than any man of half his age I've ever known. And he had just an infinite capacity for hard work. And of course he knew--he was pretty well oriented in the use of the tools which were at his command to bring about the result which he desired. And he was very skillful in the use of those tools. Some of his critics even would use the word "ruthless" in characterizing him. I don't believe that's an accurate characterization. But he worked hard and he worked tirelessly and he planned well, and I'd say the combination of those 00:17:00two things resulted in the success of most of his efforts in the political area.

BIRDWHISTELL: In terms of his control over individual legislators, did you think he had a very personal type of control over them?

YOUNG: Oh, undoubtedly. He was probably more familiar with the background of every member of the legislature than any other member of the legislature might be familiar with a few of his colleagues. He knew 'em all, and he knew 'em all intimately, and he knew their strengths and their weaknesses and their likes and their dislikes, and he played on them like a virtuoso.

BIRDWHISTELL: I think it's interesting when you're trying to deal with the personality of a man like Senator Clements [to look at] the staff that he surrounds himself with. What was the staff in the Governor's office like? Who were the most important advisors to him?

YOUNG: Well, coincidentally enough, they had are union of the staff--no, I'll have to take that back, that was Governor Wetherby's office. However, Governor Wetherby, when he succeeded Governor Clements, he inherited all of Governor Clements' original staff except the ones that he took to Washington with him. So it was practically the same staff. He had a large number of extremely capable people. But I would say if you had to choose one adjective to best describe the staff of Governor Clements, overall, it would be dedication. They were extremely dedicated people, and they were extremely loyal to Earle Clements, and Lawrence Wetherby was fortunate enough to inherit that loyalty and dedication when he succeeded Clements. I think 00:19:00that probably the most important member of Governor Clements' staff was his administrative assistant, Ed Farris, who is in business here in Frankfort at the present time. And then he had some very capable women on his staff. He had Cattie Lou Miller, who held a number of important governmental positions down to her present post as Commissioner of Personnel, or her most recent post as Commissioner of Personnel. He had Rosalyn Niemeyer, who died rather tragically less than a year ago, and he had Addie Dean, who is now Mrs. William Stokely, who lives here in Frankfort. He had--Mack Sisk was on his staff. He had any number of unusually bright, intelligent, hard-working and dedicated young people on his 00:20:00staff, and they were young people, back in that time.

BIRDWHISTELL: If you look back and pick out the best or the major achievements, I guess is what I'm trying to say, the major achievements of his administration before he went on to the Senate, what would you point to?

YOUNG: Well, I think that retrospect probably affords a little bit better basis of appraisal than would have been made back at the time. Now, you were speaking a moment ago of issues in the 1947 gubernatorial campaign. As I say, there were not so many issues in the sense that they were points of differing opinions or contrast of opinions, but there were several matters of which Governor Clements made political capital, or with which he made political capital. I mentioned one 00:21:00a minute ago, his so-called Good Roads Amendment, and that was a very fortuitous label that he put on it, because it became very easy to pass that thing. It became very palatable to people under that label. And one of the things that Governor Clements was most persistent in his advocacy of during that campaign was a matter which impressed me very little at the time, and that was his insistence upon the promotion of public recreational facilities with a view toward establishing tourism as one of Kentucky's major industries, and if I had to pick out any one thing which eventually culminated in great benefit to Kentucky, I would think, in my opinion it would be the contribution that Governor Clements made to the development of the state park and recreational facilities and the attendant level of tourism which it did promote 00:22:00in this state, and that contribution to the economy of this state.

BIRDWHISTELL: That's very interesting because you would have to say that was long-range planning.

YOUNG: Very long range, and at that time, having recently come from the halls of the Congress, Governor Clements was probably more keenly aware of the problems which we were going to face and which we're now facing in the area of water resources conservation. That was a topic that was always foremost in his mind. Of course, that was adjunctive to his public parks and recreational programs in the areas of the big TVA impoundments, and I think he possessed a better understanding at that time of what our long-range future problems were in connection with availability of clean water and good management of water resources 00:23:00than anybody else in the state, and perhaps there were very few people at the national level, who were better informed than he was or who had given more thought to it.

BIRDWHISTELL: That's very interesting that you should point that out, because I think when most people look at his Congressional career, they see it as just a means to get his name known on a statewide basis before making the race for governor, and what you're thinking of is that he really--he had broadened his experiences in a way that--

YOUNG: Let me hasten to say I would not disclaim that as one of the underlying motivations of his early career at the national level, but he was a working Congressman along with it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right. Yeah, I think that just adds a little in terms of how it broadened his own knowledge in that position. It's interesting. Of course, in 1950 when Clements decided to make the race for the Senate, what role did you play in that campaign?

YOUNG: More or less peripheral, nothing significant. I was active in the local Franklin County Democratic organization which supported Governor Clements very vigorously in his Senatorial effort, I mean, I've always been a Clements man, Clements-Combs man. Ever since there's been an organization with that appellation, I've been identified with it. And on this statewide level, I did nothing of any significance at all, but we worked rather hard for him here in Franklin County.

BIRDWHISTELL: I thought it was interesting in the primary campaign in 1950 that George Glenn Hatcher, who was then serving as Secretary of State in the Clements administration, opposed him in the primary under seemingly insurmountable odds. I was wondering if you could give me any insight 00:25:00into why Mr. Hatcher would choose to make a race like this.

YOUNG: Oh, I really can't. I've known George Glenn for many years, and this was just one of an infinite number of races that he's made, most of them successful, and other than possibly promotion of his own acquaintanceship with the electorate of the state, maybe an opportunity to keep his face fresh in the memory of the public, I can't perceive any real reasons which would have led him into making that effort, because it was obviously a futile effort from its outset.

BIRDWHISTELL: I guess I was wondering, was he representing in a different faction within the Democratic Party, or was he more or less 00:26:00just an individual?

YOUNG: I'd say he was independent. I don't think he had any affiliation with any recognized faction of the Democratic Party.

BIRDWHISTELL: Of course, some newspaper men and journalists called the 1950 campaign one of the dullest campaigns in the country's history.

YOUNG: I would have to concur in that characterization of it. It was not a very exciting campaign.

BIRDWHISTELL: Was this because of Clements' control over the state and a minimum opposition from, say, Judge Charles I. Daws, who was aging at the time?

YOUNG: Oh yes, it just wasn't--it didn't give the promise of being sufficiently a real contest to provoke a great level of interest in it. Here's an incumbent governor with all of the resources and tools at his command making a race for another statewide office, and obviously the possibility of successful opposition to him is extremely remote either 00:27:00from the primary level or from the Republican Party, so it just wasn't calculated to generate a great deal of interest.

BIRDWHISTELL: I see. Of course, after going through the Senate and leaving the state administration to Governor Wetherby, some have said that Clements still had a very considerable control over not only the Kentucky Democratic Party but also the administration here in Frankfort as well. Was that your impression of events at that time?

YOUNG: Well, it would depend upon how you define "control." I would say from the standpoint of earlier and past affiliations with the personnel who composed the administration which succeeded him in Frankfort and his affinity for some of the dominant figures in that administration, and that 00:28:00coupled with his naturally persuasive abilities, would result in some measure in what you might call control. In other words, he could get things accomplished with the administration that lesser people or other people might not. And of course he never lost interest in the Frankfort scene when he went to Washington, as many who preceded him and have followed him have done. He was always, I think, as deeply interested in government at the state level as he was at the national level. And of course he and Lawrence Wetherby had a good working relationship during their days together in state government which survived his election to the Senate and continued throughout Wetherby's administration. It was a good personal relationship and it was a good working professional relationship.

BIRDWHISTELL: I think one thing that came up soon after Clements 00:29:00went to the Senate was a special session that was called, and I understand from some people that perhaps Senator Clements' wasn't pleased with that. Do you have any recollections?

YOUNG: No, I don't, really, I don't recall--that would have been around 1951, I imagine, and I really don't have any recollection of the subject matter of any--special legislation.

BIRDWHISTELL: I think it was with regard to education at the time.

YOUNG: Was that when--no, that wasn't when the--was that when the Minimum Foundation Program was first implemented? I believe I've heard Lawrence Wetherby mention from time to time that it was during his administration that the Minimum Foundation Program first achieved any largely vitality and that he was largely responsible. I've got a vague recollection of what you're talking about, but I just can't put the pieces together right now. I remember that Earle was very much put out by a march that 00:30:00occurred on Frankfort shortly prior to his departure from the governor's office, and he was provoked by it, and it left him possibly slightly vexed with the efforts of educators throughout Kentucky to promote this program.

BIRDWHISTELL: This was a march by teachers on Frankfort?

YOUNG: Yeah. Yeah, teachers and educators generally. And I really don't recall enough--I'd heard about it earlier--but I don't recall enough of it or don't have sufficient personal knowledge of it, but I had heard earlier reports of some of his encounters with some of the people who participated in it or led that march, and it was a very irritating and vexatious situation, and I think both sides went away pretty unhappy from the confrontation. And quite probably the wounds and irritations 00:31:00that that had produced hadn't completely healed by the time Lawrence Wetherby was persuaded to call a special session to--and I think what you're speaking of was the beginning of the Minimum Foundation Program in Kentucky. And I think it was later fully funded during the Combs administration.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did you have the opportunity to see Senator Clements very often while he was in the Senate?

YOUNG: In the Senate?

BIRDWHISTELL: After he had gone to the Senate.

YOUNG: No, not frequently, not until the campaign of1956. Oh, I saw him occasionally. When he would come back to Frankfort and visit, he would usually drop by my office. He'd drop by all the county offices, and I was still county attorney at that time. But I had practically no occasion that I can recall to seek him out in Washington in promotion or in behalf myself or anybody else.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, then from your standpoint here in Kentucky, viewing him 00:32:00as a senator, did you feel that he was being an effective senator for Kentucky in this role?

YOUNG: Yes, I felt that the circumstances of his--well, I'm not phrasing it very well--I think the position which he achieved in the Senate leadership within the remarkably short time which it took him to arrive there--

[Break in tape.]

--more eloquently attests the fact of his capabilities and of the extent to which he was able to serve his constituency because by 1954 he had already achieved the assistant majority leadership of the Senate, second only to Lyndon Johnson at that time. And I know of no other junior Senator who has ever made progress like that in projecting 00:33:00himself into a position of real effectiveness in the Senate in such a short time.

BIRDWHISTELL: Of course, during the early fifties I was reading the other week, going back and reading the newspapers--you see a confrontation building as Governor Chandler returns to Kentucky and makes his intentions that he's going to run for governor again, which culminates in the primary campaign in '55 between Governor Combs and Governor Chandler. Was Clements extremely active in the 1955 campaign?

YOUNG: Well, I think you have to go back to the1951 campaign, and I think Governor Chandler was then eyeing the possibility of another campaign to return to Frankfort, and there was a great deal of maneuvering and consultation and give and take which preceded the 1951campaign, 00:34:00and I think that in the primary the only opposition that Wetherby finally wound up with was Hal Vincent from Kenton county, which was not very formidable opposition. I believe that Happy felt that he had a commitment at that time of support in '55 if he would refrain from giving Wetherby a contest in '51. I'm sure that--I don't know what his basis for that feeling was, but I'm sure that Governor Wetherby felt with equal force that no such commitment or understanding ever existed, and that sort of provided a backdrop of opening bitterness to the 1955 campaign, when Governor Wetherby threw his support--actually, he selected Bert Combs as a candidate. I mean, Bert Combs was then a 00:35:00judge on the Court of Appeals and Doc Beauchamp and Lawrence Wetherby picked him out and dressed him for the role, and they were his chief sponsors.

BIRDWHISTELL: And so Clements really didn't have a role in selecting him?

YOUNG: Oh, yes, Clements--(laughs) although Clements was physically situated in Washington, his hand in Frankfort was never still, and Clements was consulted on a more or less regular basis by both Governor Wetherby to a somewhat lesser extent, but certainly by Doc Beauchamp, because, well, they were about as close as two persona can possibly be, both from the personal standpoint and as political allies of very, very long standing, going all the way back to the time when they were both members of the old Tom Rhea organization, back in the early 1930's. That probably, incidentally, was the beginning of the real seed of the feeling 00:36:00which obviously continued to exist between Clements and Chandler all down through the forties and fifties.

BIRDWHISTELL: So in 1955, then, what Chandler feels [is that] he's been slighted, because he stayed out in '51 and was expecting support in '55, and then Clements, Wetherby and Beauchamp had selected Combs to oppose him.

YOUNG: That's right.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did you play a major role in the '55 campaign?

YOUNG: Well, I worked very hard in it. Yes, I was in headquarters briefly as chairman of Bert Combs' Speaker's Bureau at that time. I say briefly--I'd make it intermittently. I was there during the entire campaign. I worked in conjunction with the rest of our Franklin County organization very hard for Combs in Franklin County. And we were 00:37:00just out-maneuvered, out-worked, and, well, outsmarted in Franklin County, because we lost Franklin County during that campaign, and that should never have--you would not think that that was much of a likelihood with an incumbent governor.

BIRDWHISTELL: I guess Clements was disappointed by the outcome of that '55 campaign.

YOUNG: Bitterly disappointed, I think. Because not only was he disappointed on an historical basis and by reason of the traditional rivalry which had existed over the years between the earlier Chandler organization and the old Rhea organization of which Clements was a very integral part, but also I think that he foresaw in that the prospect of the generation of some real opposition to his campaign for re-election the following year in 1956, which indeed did come to pass.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that the reason, then, why--you know, we get back 00:38:00to the thing after the primary with Democrats trying to get back together, and in '55 I think it was a little more so than usual because of the large unity rally held in Louisville--

YOUNG: Well, it was a (laughs)--those gestures were indeed indulged in, but there was always an overtone of restraint and aloofness on the part of the Chandler forces. They invited us back into the fold, but you always got the feeling that you were being held at arm's length, and that there existed no prospect that you could ever become a real part of their organization. In other words, you felt like you were being used, is what it amounted to.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, you know, I think that's interesting to point out, because I think the historian or any interested citizen can get a wrong viewpoint from reading the newspaper. You see the unity rally taking place--we have a film of it at UK where everybody's slapping everybody on the back, and it looks--it really looks like the Democratic Party 00:39:00was coming together, but you would say that everybody on the platform speaking was not really that close.

YOUNG: As sincere as they--as their feelings might have led them to feel. No, I attended a local unity rally in the courthouse. I was invited to attend by the members of the local Chandler organization. I was invited briefly to express my sentiments, which I very dutifully did, but nevertheless you couldn't escape the feeling that you were being invited there more or less as window-dressing for unity and without any real desire on the part of the Chandler people to really bring you into and include you as a part of their that organization for any future purposes, that you were being more or less kept at arm's length. And it continued that way, I would say, throughout the Chandler administration.

BIRDWHISTELL: I see. Well, then, in the general election in '55, 00:40:00would you say that Clements gave no real support to the Chandler candidacy in November?

YOUNG: Really, I can't answer that question accurately, because I just don't know. I'm not aware of any outstanding effort to be made in behalf of Chandler's candidacy during that campaign. By the same token, I'm unaware of and don't believe there existed any effort on his part to undermine Chandler's campaign, or to impede it in any way. Regrettably, I can't say the same thing about the campaign the following year. (laughs)

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, getting into the '56 campaign, what were the circumstances regarding your appointment as state campaign chairman, and along with that, at the time of your appointment, did Clements share with you his impressions of what the campaign would be like? Did he tell you what 00:41:00he was expecting?

YOUNG: Yes, he did. The first intimation that I had that my name had even been thought of in the context of managing Earle's campaign, and then it was his campaign and his alone, came in--oh, let's see, it would have been in early February, I guess, of 1956, and two of my closest friends, both personal and political at that time, were Bill May and Lewis Cox, and we were out at Bill May's house one Sunday afternoon, and he asked me if I would be interested in managing Earle Clements' campaign. I told him I had no idea, I hadn't given it any thought, that I'd had no reason to, that I had no reason to think that Senator Clements would have any desire that I manage his campaign. 00:42:00And they asked me then if I would go to Louisville with them on the following day to talk to Senator Clements. So we drove down on Monday afternoon, I believe it was, and met with Earle at the Seelback Hotel and I think the only people present were Lewis Cox and Senator Clements and Henry Ward. And we chatted for a short time, and then Earle asked me if I would consider managing his campaign, and without any hesitation I told him that I would be very pleased to contribute whatever effort I could. We sat around the rest of the evening, I think it was maybe ten or eleven o'clock, talked about the campaign. The one thing that was bothering me more than anything else at the time was the matter of financing, and he never did set my mind completely at ease by telling me what resources were available to him in that 00:43:00particular time, but he sort of dismissed my fears, told me not to worry about it. He said, "Now, we can expect a very vigorous effort on behalf of Congressman Bates by the administration. We have a lot of questions to resolve as to what type of campaign we're going to conduct. Are we going to run against Joe Bates, are we going to run against Chandler, and we have a lot of other important questions to be answered, so I would like you to get down here as quickly as you can." He said, "When can you come to Louisville?" I said, "Tomorrow morning." So I came back home, packed a bag and went to Louisville, and I stayed there about nine months.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right? So how did you go about setting up the campaign organization in '56 in terms I guess of what you were doing and how close Clements was following along the organization of the campaign headquarters?

YOUNG: Well, of course I would have been totally and completely 00:44:00out of my depth had I not had the continuously available help of Lawrence Wetherby and Doc Beauchamp, because I had no experience with Kentucky politics at a statewide level in sufficient depth or detail to have permitted me to have even begun to set up a statewide organization on a county-by-county basis. At that time, next to Earle Clements and possibly equally with Lawrence Wetherby, nobody knew any more about the political situation in every county in Kentucky than Doc Beauchamp did. And Doc Beauchamp was with me continuously from the very beginning of our organizational efforts, and Lawrence was at that time living in Louisville, and he was present in headquarters practically every day. And after I once began to sort of get the hang of it, so to speak, why, it was a matter of--it went together pretty easily, I mean, 00:45:00as far as setting up--Beauchamp would give me two or three names in each county and say, "You call these men--

[End of Side One.]

-- Beauchamp would give me two or three names in each county and say, "You call these men," and he would suggest what approach I should take, and maybe give me a little bit, tell me a little something about the background of each one. Then all I had to do was pick up the telephone, get in touch with that person, and talk to them about it, solicit their help to set up the local organization, and it went very smoothly. We had, oh, from about the first of March, by mid-April we had a complete campaign organization in I would say a hundred and seventeen or eighteen counties in Kentucky that were functioning and effective at that time.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did you feel like your biggest handicap in the primary 00:46:00campaign against Joe Bates was the fact that you were operating against the state administration?

YOUNG: Oh, yes, yes.

BIRDWHISTELL: I guess in every county you were running into that problem.

YOUNG: Yes, because the ----------(??) of Frankfort are coextensive with the boundaries of Kentucky, and so there was an already well established, smoothly functioning state administration organization, Democratic organization, in every county in Kentucky, and it was a very simple matter for Happy to make those available to Joe Bates. ----------(??) Mr. Bates was not able to maximize his advantage in that situation. He was not a real warm, out-going personality, 00:47:00and he just didn't possess the ability to take maximum advantage of the situation that was bestowed upon him at that time by the administration.

BIRDWHISTELL: Going back and looking at the newspapers in the primary campaign, it seems that Joe Bates was opposing Clements supposedly for two reasons, and one was that he had lost this district due to a redistricting bill, and two, he held Clements responsible for that. Is that the way that you saw it and the way Clements and the campaign staff saw that?

YOUNG: Yeah, I think that those were the reasons to which Bates gave public subscription for his entering the contest against Clements, but I had the feeling at the time, and I think it was shared by Clements and Wetherby and Beauchamp and all the others that were close to the campaign that Chandler was directly responsible for urging 00:48:00Bates to get into the race, and-- ----------(??)

BIRDWHISTELL: So while he had some good reasons, still the main motivation did come from the--

YOUNG: Well, I don't know that those reasons were so good (laughs), I mean they were--let's say from the standpoint of personal motivation they may have been good reasons, but I don't think they were really sound reasons for his presence in the contest.

BIRDWHISTELL: I see. You mentioned--made an interesting point earlier that Clements told you that you and the other campaign staff would decide whether they were going to run against Joe Bates or Chandler. It seems that the decision was made to run against Chandler. Is that the way the campaign staff saw it?

YOUNG: That decision was never made from the standpoint of actually 00:49:00taking a consensus of the people that were close to the Clements campaign and inscribing it on parchment. But I think tacitly that was what everybody agreed would be the best course for him to follow, because Chandler had lost some of the level of popularity that swept him into the Governor's office for a second term in the short space that intervened between his inauguration and that time. That's natural, I mean, I don't mean to say that Chandler actually did anything, any particular thing to occasion a loss of popularity. But anytime a new administration makes its appearance--and after two or three months after they'd made their appearance in Frankfort, there was a backlash of dissidents that originates with people who are disappointed, legitimately or not, in their expectations of what they should get out of the new administration that they claim to have worked so hard to put in office, and so coming 00:50:00along two or three months after the inauguration of a new governor, anybody who is opposed to that governor is going to be the beneficiary of some of that backlash of disappointment on the part of the administrations former organization.

BIRDWHISTELL: By the latter part of April, 1956, the campaign headquarters, you and the rest of the campaign headquarters must have felt that things were looking pretty good in terms of the Clements candidacy, and then all of a sudden you had a new factor involved with Barkley's death in I think the last day of April, 1956.

YOUNG: Right.

BIRDWHISTELL: What immediate effects did this have on the campaign?

YOUNG: Well, the--of course, the long-range effect--in my own judgment I have always felt that that was a factor that was primarily responsible for Clements' defeat in the general election, was the effect of Barkley's 00:51:00death on the situation shortly or immediately following his death. Of course his death, the first reaction it produced was one of consternation, and then when that began to wear off, you could see the wheels beginning to turn and maneuverings began to take place to obtain the nomination through the State Central Committee. At that time, the State Central Committee was still effectively controlled by Clements and Wetherby. Chandler had not had sufficient time to replace a number of the members of the State Central Committee with persons of his own choosing. And I think it was pretty much a foregone conclusion that whoever Wetherby and Clements 00:52:00wanted to receive the nomination, at the hands of the committee, would inevitably get it. And so, and incidentally, that the in-fighting and the maneuvering which took place during that aspect or that phase of the campaign, I think probably attests more highly, another facet of Earle Clements' character that I have always been impressed with and some aspects of his character that I haven't been so favorably impressed with, like when he'd get mad and shake you a little bit, but I think Earle was always intensely loyal to his own people and to his friends. Sometimes doubts would arise in the minds of some of his friends as a consequence of Earle's efforts to reach out and bring into his organization people who had earlier opposed and maybe had opposed 00:53:00him bitterly. And some of the longstanding members of his organization would be resentful of the fact that he would actually bring into his organization and treat with a measure of reasonable kindliness people who had so bitterly opposed him. You could contrast the atmosphere that prevailed at some of these harmony meetings back in '55 with the same type of thing that Clements did on a man-to-man basis, the contrast would be very sharp, because in the earlier Chandler-Combs-Clements harmony meetings as I remarked earlier, you always got the impression that you were being kept at arm's length. But when Clements reached out to take in a person who had previously opposed him, however bitterly, he always made that person feel that they were genuinely welcome. And, however, he had a loyalty his political associates of earlier days that transcended even his own 00:54:00political well-being and his own good sense as to what was to his political best interests. And I think that the events that transpired after Barkley's death probably are better illustrative of that than anything else. Of course, there were some members of the State Central Committee that would have resigned before they would have accepted a candidate for Barkley's vacancy from the Chandler side of the political scene. They were in a minority, because I think that personally Earle and Lawrence Wetherby could have persuaded those members of the committee who were intensely loyal to him to do whatever they really wanted done, and whatever they told them was to the best interest of Clements and Wetherby. Beauchamp had some ambition to go to Washington at that time. However, the principal 00:55:00potential candidate on the Chandler side was of course Joe Leary, and I'm confident that Wetherby and Clements and Beauchamp, however unpalatable it might have been to them, could have persuaded the State Central Committee to give the nomination to Leary, and I think, had they given that nomination to Leary, Clements could have been assured of the whole-hearted support of the Chandler administration for the remainder of his efforts in that contest. But at a meeting--and I think the only persons that participated in the actual choice of a successor nominee for Barkley's vacancy were Earle Clements himself, Miss Lenny McLoughlin, who was then still the effective 00:56:00and forceful head of the Louisville Democratic Organization, Doc Beauchamp, and Lawrence Wetherby, and Henry Ward, and myself. And we spent one whole night determining what ultimately was going to be our posture in the thing, and, well, he of course had some desire to run for it. Wetherby didn't realize then that he was still stigmatized as a defeated, almost as a defeated candidate by reason of the closeness of his sponsorship with Combs, and the difficulties were going to be dependent upon that image in another political effort. Wetherby agreed to accept it, and Clements felt that--I think felt that he would like to have had Joe Leary as a candidate, because Earle always had a very good personal relationship with Joe Leary.[There was] quite a bit of affinity between 00:57:00the two men, and that continued to exist down to the present time. And I think that Leary would have been quite an acceptable candidate to Clements. But Clements wasn't one to turn his back on his friends of a long time, politically, regardless of what he felt might be the consequences of his own immediate future.

BIRDWHISTELL: Now, would Joe Leary have accepted the nomination?

YOUNG: Oh, yes, yes, we had--that was certain. I mean--

BIRDWHISTELL: You had already found out before that, I suppose.

YOUNG: Well, we--Chandler had sent inquiries to our camp from which it was apparent that Joe Leary wanted the position and would have very readily and gratefully have accepted the nomination at the hands of the committee.

BIRDWHISTELL: Was this your advice to Clements, to take Joe Leary at the time.

YOUNG: No. No, because, well, I was factionalized to the same 00:58:00extent that everyone else at that time, although Clements was--has the ability to stand above factionalism and look down and try to determine where interest really lay. But I felt like the rest of them did; I felt it would be--I felt it would be injurious to our own effort. I felt it would disillusion some of our more dedicated people if we acceded to Chandler's to desires and Leary's desires, and forced the State Central Committee into his selection as a candidate. I do believe, had it been done, that Earle would have been elected, because of the narrowness of his margin of defeat and the fact that quite obviously the Chandler Administration played a very significant part in it, particularly in Eastern Kentucky. (interruption)

BIRDWHISTELL: I think we've discussed pretty thoroughly the decision to take 00:59:00Wetherby and present him before the Central Committee and make him the nominee. There is one other point, though, that I wanted to ask, and there's a lot of discussion in the newspapers at the time, just immediately following Barkley's death, that perhaps Bates could be promised Barkley's seat if he would drop out of the race against Clements. I was wondering what Clements' reaction was to this or what your advice would be--was on it.

YOUNG: We never participated in any discussion on that basis, to my knowledge, or to my recollection. I don't think that was ever considered by any of the people, by Clements himself, or by any of the people close to Clements as a viable possibility.

BIRDWHISTELL: Was the Chandler faction bringing this up, or was it mostly just a media thing, that they--

YOUNG: I think it was a media thing, just speculation on their part. They were trying to put together feasible solutions to the 01:00:00situation, and I don't believe--I can't believe that it was actively considered by the Chandler people.

BIRDWHISTELL: Uh-huh, because it really wouldn't have solved the problems that they wanted--or met their goals, I guess I should say. Of course, following Wetherby's nomination and the end of the primary, then you have the beginning of the general election campaign. And as it turned out, of course you had Clements and Wetherby as a team on the Democratic side, John Sherman Cooper came back from India to run, and Morton came back from the State Department to run, so you have four candidates in the Senate election.

YOUNG: By way of a footnote to that campaign, you made some observation earlier about the selection of Morehead for the opening of Clements' campaign. And previous to the 1956 campaign, all openings, all campaign 01:01:00openings had been live openings, and I can recall none that--well, I can recall maybe one or two lesser campaigns that had what you call a radio. One of the earliest decisions that we were confronted with in that campaign and one which we had to make early was whether or not we were going to have a live opening. If so, where we were going to have it, or whether we were going to have a television opening, and we kicked that one around for some length of time, and the fear existed in our headquarters that Chandler had such widespread control of county party organizations that we might not be able to generate a large enthusiastic crowd at a live opening in some Kentucky cities, which would have had disastrous consequences, and so it was decided that Clements' opening would be a television opening, and it went off very well; it was very effective, 01:02:00probably a little less expensive than a live opening, and--

BIRDWHISTELL: Less expensive?

YOUNG: Yes.

BIRDWHISTELL: That's interesting. I would have guessed it would be more expensive.

YOUNG: Well, less expensive--well, let me put it this way: I think it was--overall it was less expensive. It was more expensive from the standpoint of the state headquarters. It cost us more money, but by and large the expense of promotional effort and so forth was I think somewhat less than it would have been had we undertaken to generate a substantial crowd for a live opening.

BIRDWHISTELL: Was the show done live from Louisville, then, over television?

YOUNG: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: From WHAS, right?

YOUNG: WHAS and WAVE both.

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh, is that right?

YOUNG: As I recall, yeah; we pre-empted all the media that we could, radio and television.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, I wanted to get into that a little bit later. I think I'll go on and ask it now, in terms of television seemed to come into its own in Kentucky politics in the '56 campaign.

YOUNG: Just about that time, right.

BIRDWHISTELL: Was Clements enthusiastic about the television approach?

YOUNG: Yes, he was, and I think he was from--as a consequence of several thoughts that he had about it: number one was the breadth of coverage, live coverage that he could get. He had the advantage of whatever impact a candidate's personality could make, which he lost to some extent in radio and totally in the press, and then he had been in a position to observe the benefits of television advertising at the national level, because at that time I believe that Earle was chairman of the Senate Campaign Committee, so he was in close touch with the efforts of other candidates in other parts of the country, and they had given him good reports on the 01:04:00effectiveness of television. And then, too, he had available to him in Washington pretty capable facilities for making television commercials and television spots, in other words the preparatory work for an effective television campaign.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right. Some people have said that Clements really couldn't relax in front of a television camera, though, they way he could in person.

YOUNG: No, no he didn't. Clements' personality came through much better on a person-to-person basis, on a live basis, than it did on television, because--well, I don't know whether it was the camera fright or whatever you want to call it, but you're quite right; he never was able to totally relax and really come across the way he could with a live audience.

BIRDWHISTELL: And--I'm assuming then that a factor in deciding on the 01:05:00use of television too was that Clements was--his responsibilities in Washington didn't allow him to come to Kentucky as much as probably you and others in the campaign organization would have preferred. Was this a--

YOUNG: Well, he managed to--he managed to devote a very substantial amount of time during that period of time. I think his position in the Senate leadership at that time enabled him to schedule his Washington activities around the requirements of the Kentucky campaign. We spent a great deal of time in Kentucky personally. I think perhaps that the most significant reason rested in our own--in our doubts about our own ability to generate large and responsive live crowds for the opening.

BIRDWHISTELL: That's interesting. I'm glad we got that pointed out. Going 01:06:00back to Chandler's role again, which at least at several times was a very key factor in the campaign for the general election, in the Courier-Journal in October 26--22, 1956, Chandler is quoted as saying that his acceptance of the honorary chairmanship of the Democratic Campaign Advisory Committee was just a surface show of harmony, and he goes on to say that he had agreed to accept the post at the request of his close personal friends, Bill Young, not Clements, and not Wetherby. Do you recall that incident?

YOUNG: Yes, I do; now, I don't recall whether that followed or preceded the first real and almost traumatic indication we had from Chandler that he was not going to lend any measure of cooperation to Clements' and Wetherby's campaign effort, but it was--I think that was 01:07:00later; I think it was probably in mid-summer of 1956.You know, Chandler was responsible for moving the primary date from the first Saturday in August up to late May, and that was done in the '56 legislature, and I think it was prompted by a feeling that it would be very advantageous to the Bates candidacy that--to foreshorten the campaign period or the period of time which we'd have to campaign in the primary. Chandler at the request of some of his friends and associates--and I think Joe Leary may have been one of the primary ones--agreed to lend some effort to Clements' and Wetherby's campaign and I 01:08:00don't remember who arranged it but they had a large luncheon meeting at the Frankfort Country Club, and it was well attended. There were equal number of Chandler and Clements people there, and Chandler was the principal speaker at that luncheon. And no one knew what he was going to say, but he got up and he proceeded just to cut Clements to pieces, and Wetherby too, in his speech following that luncheon, And everybody--all the Clements people left with the impression that they had been betrayed, and all the Chandler people left with the very clear indication that their real cooperation and effort was not being called for by the administration. And that was really the last time that I think that Chandler and Clements ever met on a face-to-face basis. 01:09:00Now, they had had one meeting prior to that time, in Frankfort, privately. But that was the end of the Democratic Party harmony in the 1956 campaign, was that country club luncheon.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did Clements stay for the speech? Was he present?

YOUNG: Oh, yes, he was present there.

BIRDWHISTELL: What types of things was Chandler saying, to give some impression--

YOUNG: I really would like to--wish I could recall some of the things he did say. Some of them were chiding, some of them were very scathing; none of it was favorable to the campaign of Clements and Wetherby. I can't recall; I couldn't quote him on a single phrase, but the general tenor of it was that he didn't want to be there, and that he had no real purpose or intent to become any significant part of the Democratic campaign effort in the fall of 1956.

BIRDWHISTELL: I guess Clements conveyed to you his reaction to that 01:10:00after--

YOUNG: Well, I--it was pretty obvious. I don't think he had to--it was obvious to everyone. It was so obvious that I recall many years later we always took a bus down to the Derby; we had since about 1954. We had a small group in Frankfort, Cox, May, Wetherby, me, and one or two others would always charter a bus and go to the Derby. And we ran into Earle and Sarah at the track, and he wanted to come back to Frankfort that night, and he had no transportation and asked us if he might ride back on the bus, and of course we welcomed his presence. He had no idea where he was going except to Frankfort. So when we got to Frankfort, we always--customarily we would always come back and disembarked at the country club and made arrangements to have dinner there. So we drove up to the old Frankfort Country 01:11:00Club. Everybody I thought got out and went inside, and in about fifteen minutes Sarah came over to me, Sarah Clements, and said, "Bill," said, "I wish you'd go out to the bus and see if you can't persuade Earle to get off." (laughs) And I went out to the bus and Senator Clements was still sitting on the bus by himself, and I said, "Come on, Earle, come on in, we're all getting ready to have dinner." He said, "I would not enter that building under any circumstances." He said, "The last time I was there a fellow gutted me." We were not able to persuade him to come into the country club, and it was just the vividness of the memory of the last occasion of his attendance in the Frankfort Country Club that prompted his attitude at that time.

BIRDWHISTELL: I think that expresses very well his (laughs)--

YOUNG: You couldn't draw it any more clearly, I don't think.

BIRDWHISTELL: Okay, then as Chandler was taken out of the picture in terms of anyone ever being able to persuade him to help 01:12:00in that campaign, were there other efforts made to get key Chandler people over from Chandler?

YOUNG: Oh, yes, yes.

BIRDWHISTELL: And was that successful to any degree?

YOUNG: To a very, very limited degree.

[Break in tape.]

BIRDWHISTELL: We were talking about the Chandler people in terms of persuading--

YOUNG: Yeah. Offhand, I can't recall many of the key Chandler people, key people in the Chandler organization that we--whose support we effectively enlisted. I think we did get some realistic support from Bob ----------(??) probably more than anybody else of any importance in the Chandler organization. To a certain extent ----------(??) Joe Leary on the basis of his 01:13:00personal friendship with Clements. Some of the lesser people in the Chandler administrative structure, but I think the truth of the matter is that all of the people who were at that time working in Frankfort and as a part of the Chandler administration were afraid to do anything in behalf of Clements for fear of reprisals. So we weren't very effective in obtaining much assistance from the Chandler organization itself. Now, as far as Chandler himself is concerned, I've always been persuaded that he lent significant assistance to our defeat in Eastern Kentucky, particularly.

BIRDWHISTELL: In terms of getting out votes, or--

YOUNG: Yeah. Because at that time probably the most effective base 01:14:00of local campaign organization was the Highway Department. That was the one administrative department which, in common with every county, had a significant force of employees in every county. And we had indications that in many, many instances in Eastern Kentucky particularly that the highway personnel worked very effectively against us.

BIRDWHISTELL: What about in the illegal activities in Eastern Kentucky in terms of ballot box stuffing--did you have any indication of that?

YOUNG: Oh, we had some indication of it, but never enough hard evidence to justify a contest of the election. That was discussed following the election.

BIRDWHISTELL: And it was decided that there was not enough evidence, or you just didn't want to go through with it?

YOUNG: Well, we--of course, we had a meeting that night, the 01:15:00night following the election day in Louisville, and about the same people were present that I mentioned in connection with the decision to give the nomination for Barkley's vacancy to Wetherby. And very vivid in my mind, Wetherby and I had accepted an invitation to leave the following morning on a fishing trip down in the Bahamas, and we had accepted that invitation several weeks earlier. And I had planned to come back to Frankfort that night. We met rather late that night in the Seelback Hotel, and Senator Clements, of course, was more or less actively in charge of the meeting, and he opened the meeting with the statement that he never intended again to seek public office. That 01:16:00was his prefatory statement. And then he said, "Now, the decision we have to make is whether or not we want a contest this election in the Senate." And he looked at me and pointed his finger at me first, and I said, "Well, I think the decision has to be governed by whether or not we have any grounds of contest that offer any reasonable prospect of success." He rather pre-emptorily brushed that aside and said, "No, now we've got to decide ----------(??); I'm not going to run for office again." Well, I think that he was anticipating the fact that somebody would comment that a contest could have very adverse effects, almost fatal effects, on any future political endeavors, and he was more or less discarding that argument in opposition to a contest at the outset. We didn't resolve anything that night, although it was tentatively agreed that we would not contest it. Earle 01:17:00was going to get in touch with Abe Fortas in Washington, who was I think at that time counsel to the Senate Campaign Committee and a personal friend of his and discuss the matter with him, but the decision tentatively was made that it would be unwise to contest it and would probably be a fruitless undertaking anyway. Well, the next morning I got up and was ready to leave to go to the Lexington Airport when Senator Clements called my home, and I, as a matter of fact I had just walked out the door, and when my wife answered the telephone, she told me later that she was under the impression that I was beyond recall, and she told him that I had already gone to the airport, and I met Governor Wetherby at the Airport a short time later in Lexington, and we were out of pocket for the next week fishing down 01:18:00in the Bahamas. And I don't think Wetherby ever took his defeat quite as personally--well, he may have taken it more personally than Senator Clements did, but I don't think it ever had the impact on him that it did on Senator Clements.

BIRDWHISTELL: Of course, Senator Clements had so much more to lose at the time.

YOUNG: Well, that's true, that's true, and then I think that it was--well, there's a little nuance of difference there between the reaction that each candidate underwent as a consequence of defeat. I think Lawrence took it more personally from the standpoint of people that--individual people that he had felt that he had some claim upon personal loyalty that 01:19:00disappointed him perhaps, and I think it was personal to Senator Clements in the sense that he felt that the public reaction had betrayed the efforts which he had made in behalf of all the people in Kentucky.

BIRDWHISTELL: I think if we quit for a minute and talk about the Republican opposition--we've talked about opposition within the Democratic Party. How strong an opponent did Clements think Morton was going to be at the outset? Did he talk about that with you?

YOUNG: Yes, and I think he probably had a better appreciation of the caliber of the opposition and of the effectiveness of the opposition than any of us did. Frankly, I don't think anybody connected with headquarters realized the full extent of opposition that we were going 01:20:00to encounter at the polls in November, but I think Clements was always aware of that and I think that he probably had a more realistic appreciation of our situation than anybody else connected with the campaign, including Wetherby.

BIRDWHISTELL: In terms of the campaign organization and what kind of strategy you were going to set up, how did you attack Morton as a candidate? What kinds of weaknesses did you try and play upon?

YOUNG: They--really, there weren't many. We tried to take a positive approach to the November campaign and more or less conducted it on the basis of Earle's strength and his opponents' weaknesses, and upon his record in the short time that he had been a member of the Senate, and upon his effective ability or his position of effectiveness as the Senate Majority Leader to serve the people of Kentucky, which would be lost or dissipated by his defeat, because it was inconceivable 01:21:00that anybody could well, anybody in the Republican Party could achieve a position in the Senate where they could be as effective in behalf of the state of Kentucky as Clements occupied at that time, and that was basically the theme of the general election campaign.

BIRDWHISTELL: As the campaign got into full swing, did you notice that perhaps Clements had a better chance of beating Morton than Wetherby had of beating John Sherman Cooper, who many thought was the stronger Republican candidate?

YOUNG: I think that we all probably sensed that from the outset.

BIRDWHISTELL: And I was wondering, alone those lines, was there any--was any consideration ever given to trying to separate the team approach and letting Clements run on his own against Horton?

YOUNG: None whatsoever, no. No, and I think that Clements deserves a great deal of credit, because for that--in that particular, because as 01:22:00I remarked a minute ago I think he had a more realistic understanding appreciation of his situation and Wetherby's situation relative to their Republican opposition than anybody else connected with the headquarters effort. And of course hindsight's a wonderful thing, and you can look back now and say that Clements might have been able to have prevailed by divorcing himself from Wetherby, and if that's true, I think no one would have appreciated it at that time any better than Clements himself, but never did he make any move or give utterance to any word that would indicate the slightest desire on his part to engage in anything other than a team effort.

BIRDWHISTELL: You mentioned Wetherby's reaction to the defeat a few minutes ago. I was--I wanted to ask then, and I'll ask it now: do you think Wetherby held himself responsible for Clements' loss? Did he 01:23:00view it that way, at the time, at least?

YOUNG: I don't know what Lawrence's reaction was; actually, I never discussed it with him. I doubt that he did. I think that Wetherby simply explained the difference in the margin of his defeat and Clements' defeat in personal terms, that it was more or less a residue of his recent incumbency as governor, and his public efforts in behalf of Combs. I think Wetherby probably had an explanation in his own mind for the much wider margin of defeat that he suffered than Clements, but I don't--I doubt that he ever regarded himself as a contributing factor to Clements' defeat, although Lawrence was equally aware with all of us of the prospects of getting better cooperation from the 01:24:00Chandler people by giving the nomination to Joe Leary, but he felt at that time, as did I, and as did I and as did Doc Beauchamp, Lenny McLoughlin, and everybody else in any sort of decision-making position that the primary and most significant effect of that maneuver would be the alienation of a large segment of our own people from us.

BIRDWHISTELL: From a campaign organization point of view, how important was the black vote in '56 and what efforts, if any, were made to set up a black organization within the organization?

YOUNG: Well, I don't think that we ever undertook to separate that particular aspect of the campaign and deal with it directly. Now, we made the same effort in behalf or in the direction of 01:25:00getting the black vote that previous campaigns had done, and that effort was primarily concentrated in two or three areas of significant black populations, such as Louisville; we had several black people in responsible governmental positions in Louisville. Mark Anthony, and of course we dealt directly with Frank Stanley to obtain whatever influence we could through his paper, the Louisville Defender, and we made some effort in the direction of the black vote, but I wouldn't think--it was not a consciously separate effort. And then in other places such as Henderson and Owensburg and a few other places we had prominent black people in the organization. We didn't 01:26:00mount any black effort as such.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did the school integration and the incidents at Sturgis have any effect on campaign organization?

YOUNG: I don't think any at all. Not that I recall.

BIRDWHISTELL: How would you compare Morton and Clements as campaigners? Some have said that perhaps Morton was a little more issue-oriented, more specific, maybe was more in touch with what the voters wanted to hear at the time. Would you along with that, or--

YOUNG: Well, I don't really, and I don't think that on a person to-person basis Morton was nearly as effective a campaigner as Clements was, because Morton just didn't have the natural exuberance or ebullience or warmth that Clements had. He was more aloof, a little more reserved, and I never thought that Morton compared well with Clements in effectiveness as a personal campaigner. That campaign was when I first made 01:27:00the acquaintance of Larry Munn. Larry was, of course, my opposite number, and we had two or three encounters during the course of that campaign, all of which were on a completely friendly basis. And he and I became casual friends at that time, and that friendship continued through his term as governor, although I was never--I never sought any favors from him, was never close to his administration. We remain personal friends.

BIRDWHISTELL: Would you say that the defeat in '56 was what kept Clements out of effectively coming back into politics in Kentucky, or do you think in '59 when he came back as highway commissioner he was intending to seek office again in Kentucky?

YOUNG: That's difficult to say. Earle has never been one to share his political plans with anybody else. I rather doubt it. I think that he was just trying to write a finish to his 01:28:00career in an office where he felt that he could effectively do something for the benefit of the public generally. I think probably both his age and the general situation militated against any real consideration on his part of seeking--I think he meant it when he said down at the Seelback Hotel the night after the election that he never intended to seek public office again actively, and I took it to mean elected public office. And I believe he really meant that, and I don't--I doubt that he could have been persuaded to offer himself as a candidate for an office again.

BIRDWHISTELL: One question that I failed to ask, in terms of the campaign organization, you mentioned that Clements had told you early in the campaign that financing wouldn't be a problem. Did you have any problems in gaining funds to run the campaign in '56?

YOUNG: Hell, we didn't run a campaign on a grand scale. 01:29:00We ran about as economical a campaign, I guess, as has ever been run.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did you feel you were being outspent by the opposition?

YOUNG: Oh, yes, yes, and I think we were. I think we were able to live within our means but certainly not within our desires as far as campaign effort was concerned. He could have effectively spent a great deal more money than was available to us.

BIRDWHISTELL: Some have said that because of the nature of the 1950 campaign, the funds that weren't used in that campaign were stored for the Clements faction. Were funds available from that source?

YOUNG: I'm not aware that there were any funds that weren't used in the' 55 campaign; I--

BIRDWHISTELL: I mean in the '50 campaign--

YOUNG: Oh, in the '50 campaign?

BIRDWHISTELL: --where there wasn't much opposition.

YOUNG: Not that I am aware of.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is there anything about Senator Clements that we haven't discussed, 01:30:00any anecdotes or any other stories that you feel would give insight into his personality that we haven't brought up?

YOUNG: I can think of only one, and don't know whether he would appreciate this, but I'm sure Lawrence Wetherby would: I recall one incident that has afforded--during the campaign that' s afforded Wetherby and me some laughter in retrospect, but we had--we had had a joint rally of Clements and Wetherby in Mayfield about mid-September, and Lawrence and I had fished together and hunted together many times prior to this campaign, and so it was entirely natural that he, in light of our proximity to Kentucky Lake, that we give some thought to going fishing. This rally was on Saturday. We were having dinner at Akery 01:31:00Austin's house after the rally that night, after a big reception, and Lawrence and I were standing in Akery Austin's kitchen when Earle walked in, and he said, "Well," he said, "what are you fellas going to do?" And I said, "Well, Wetherby and I thought that we might go over to Blood River and do a little fishing tomorrow"--I said, "He's pretty worn out, and I haven't had much opportunity to do any this year, and Lawrence has done none." And Earle got a very hurt look on his face. He said, "Now, you'd better come back to Morganfield with me and go to church in the morning." He said, "Those fish don't vote, you know," and he said, "You need to go where the votes are," and I became a little irritated, and I said, "Now, Earle, it's all right for you to say that." I said, "You've worked hard, but we have too, and this is the only opportunity we've had" He said, "Well, I like to fish, too." And of course I doubt that he ever dropped a hook in the water in his life. He said, "I 01:32:00love to fish, too, but," he said, "I'm more mindful of the fact that we're after votes here." And he said, "The fish don't vote." (laughs)

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, I appreciate you taking the time to reminisce about your role in the campaign, and I think it's been very informative.

YOUNG: Well, it's been a very pleasant experience for me because I don't really have much occasion to let my mind wander into the recesses of retrospect very often, and I really enjoy sitting down and thinking about it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Thank you very much.

[End of interview.]