Interview with Gloria and Ulrich Middeldorf, July 1, 1978

Partial Transcript: The following is an unrehearsed interview with Dr. Ulrich Middeldorf and Gloria Middeldorf concerning Victor Hammer for the University of Kentucky oral history program.

Segment Synopsis: This is an introduction to the interview, announcing the location where the recording was made.

Keywords: Gloria Middeldorf; Oral history projects; Ulrich Middeldorf; University of Kentucky; Victor Hammer

Subjects: Hammer, Victor, 1882-1967; Middeldorf, Ulrich, 1901-1983; Oral history recordings; University of Kentucky

Partial Transcript: Professor and Mrs. Middelton, I'd like to, uh, just collect today a few of your, uh--

Segment Synopsis: Mrs. Middeldorf remembers that Victor Hammer mentioned that he was glad to be invited to dinner by them for the second time in Chicago, because he was looking forward to the good food. Dr. Middeldorf and Hammer preferred to speak in German, while Mrs. Middeldorf was not able to engage in the conversation.

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Keywords: Florence, Italy; Victor Hammer

Subjects: Florence (Italy); Hammer, Victor, 1882-1967; Middeldorf, Ulrich, 1901-1983

Partial Transcript: You suggested--you, you said there were some things about America he didn't like. Can you talk about some of those?

Segment Synopsis: Hammer was not able to live in Europe any longer. Hammer did like his students, but he would also complain about some of the questions students would ask about details about the art, which he felt were inappropriate questions. Similarly it is not appropriate to criticize a musical performance for minute details. Hammer left a portrait he had painted with the Middeldorfs for them to study.

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Keywords: Americans; Europeans; Students; Victor Hammer

Subjects: Americans; Europeans; Hammer, Victor, 1882-1967; Middeldorf, Ulrich, 1901-1983; Students

Partial Transcript: We can, um, start, uh, with, with Hammer's and your acquaintanceship chronologically, then.

Segment Synopsis: Gloria Middeldorf decides to leave the interview at the beginning, so that the interview is now primarily by Ulrich Middeldorf. Dr. Middeldorf was born in a small village in Germany; his father was a miner. From there he came to Florence. He studied Latin and was interested in ancient documents. When the war broke out, he had to interrupt his studies. During this time, Middeldorf became interested in many different scripts, including the uncial font.

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Keywords: Florence, Italy; Germany; Latin; Literature; Miners; Ulrich Middeldorf; Victor Hammer

Subjects: Florence (Italy); Germany; Hammer, Victor, 1882-1967; Latin language; Literature; Middeldorf, Ulrich, 1901-1983; Miners

Partial Transcript: Well, you came to Florence, then, and what--you had a fellowship here, and where did you study here?

Segment Synopsis: Dr. Middeldorf enjoyed his studies at the Kunsthistorisches Institut in Florence, and also enjoyed the company of the other students from the Institute and from the American Academy. After a year at the institute, he took a position as the keeper of the photograph collection. Middeldorf discusses his friendship with an heir of the Cotta publishing family from Stutgart.

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Keywords: Cotta Publishing; Florence, Italy; Kunsthistorisches Institut; Richard Offner; Stutgart; Victor Hammer

Subjects: Florence (Italy); Hammer, Victor, 1882-1967; Kunsthistorisches Institut in Florenz; Middeldorf, Ulrich, 1901-1983; Offner, Richard, 1889-1965

Partial Transcript: Okay let's try it like this.

Segment Synopsis: Dr. Middeldorf became friends with Clarence Kennedy, a professor of art history at Smith College. Kennedy established Cantina Press. So Middeldorf and Victor Hammer were traveling in the same circle of friends. Hammer was of weak health, suffering from a heart ailment. Middeldorf read Hammer's autobiography.

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Keywords: Cantina Press; Clarence Kennedy; Northampton (Mass.); Smith College; Ulrich Middeldorf; Victor Hammer

Subjects: Cantina Press; Florence (Italy); Hammer, Victor, 1882-1967; Kennedy, Clarence; Middeldorf, Ulrich, 1901-1983; Northampton (Mass.); Smith College

Partial Transcript: Of course all this dates from after his arrival--

Segment Synopsis: Dr. Middeldorf discusses Hammer's time in Chicago. Middeldorf came to America via London. A colleague with whom he had been working on a photograph collection and sculpture helped Middeldorf get to London during the rise of the Nazi regime. Bernard Berenson arranged for Middeldorf to go to the University of Chicago as a professor of art history. There he met John Rusk and his wife Fern Rusk Shapley. Middeldorf's family was fortunate not to be on one of the Nazi blacklists, so they were able to travel somewhat freely, and visited Middeldorf in America once.

Keywords: Bernard Berenson; Blacklists; Chicago, Illinois; Fern Rusk Shapley; John Shapley; Joseph Graves; London, England; Nazis; Robert Middleton

Subjects: Berenson, Bernard, 1865-1959; Blacklist; Chicago (Ill.); College teachers--Nazi persecution; Graves, Joseph; Hammer, Victor, 1882-1967; Middleton, R. Hunter (Robert Hunter), 1898-1985; Nazis; Printing; Shapley, Fern Rusk; Society of Typographic Arts (Chicago, Ill.); Typesetting

Partial Transcript: This was the show at the Renaissance Society?

Segment Synopsis: Victor Hammer was sometimes very philosophical. He had a sly sense of humor. Through his publisher, Middeldorf made the acquaintance of Thomas Craven in New York. Justus Bier was a friend of Middeldorf and Hammer.

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Keywords: Chicago (Ill.); Humor; Justus Bier; Philosophers; Thomas Craven

Subjects: Bier, Justus, 1899-1990; Chicago (Ill.); Craven, Thomas, 1888-1969; Humor; Middeldorf, Ulrich, 1901-1983; Philosophers

Partial Transcript: So, um, Hammer was sending, a, after 1939, after he came Wells College, you developed this relationship that was almost continual.

Segment Synopsis: Dr. Middeldorf and Victor Hammer corresponded on a regular basis, and discussed their work. Hammer was very careful with his work, and wanted to see the reaction of readers to his work. Middeldorf left Chicago in 1953.

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Keywords: Proof; Victor Hammer; Wells College

Subjects: Hammer, Victor, 1882-1967; Middeldorf, Ulrich, 1901-1983; Proofreading; Wells College

Partial Transcript: And did he-----(??) did you think, any other group in the way he used your group sort of as a testing ground?

Segment Synopsis: Hammer was interested in the opinion of the academy regarding his work more than public showings. Middeldorf characterizes Hammer chiefly as a printer, and interested in literature.

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Keywords: Emil Kaufmann; Literature; Printers; Public galleries; The academy

Subjects: Art museums; Kaufmann, Emil, 1891-1953; Learned institutions and societies; Literature; Printers

Partial Transcript: Um, when you were writing to Hammer then in, in, uh, Chicago, um, were you, uh, wer--had you been aware that he would have been painting?

Segment Synopsis: Middeldorf knew that Hammer was also a painter, and interested in architecture, printing, typography. Middeldorf did not believe that Hammer would have taught printing to his students at Wells, but rather would have taught the skill to apprentices, as apprenticeship is the common way to learn this skill. Middeldorf comments that he thought that students would run from Hammer because of his personality. He was appreciated as an artist, rather than as a classroom teacher. Middeldorf believes that there would be a lot of Hammer's correspondence at the University of Chicago, in their archives.

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Keywords: Architecture; Art exhibitions; Printing; Teaching; Typography; Ulrich Middeldorf; University of Chicago Archives; Victor Hammer; Wells College

Subjects: Apprenticeship programs; Architecture; Archives; Art--Exhibitions; Hammer, Victor, 1882-1967; Middeldorf, Ulrich, 1901-1983; Printing; Teaching; Typography; University of Chicago; Wells College

Partial Transcript: Probably, probably because the reason that my memory is for all kinds of other things.

Segment Synopsis: Dr. Middeldorf does not remember meeting Hammer's first wife, nor does he remember any details of Hammer's emigration from Europe. He did meet Hammer's second wife, Carolyn Hammer. Middeldorf and Hammer conducted many conversations in German. Hammer was a man of strong ideas.

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Keywords: Carolyn Hammer; Chicago, Illinois; Lexington, Kentucky

Subjects: Chicago (Ill.); Hammer, Carolyn Reading; Lexington (Ky.)

Partial Transcript: --not precisely-----(??). He was Austrian but--

Segment Synopsis: Victor Hammer was very intelligent and totally unpretentious. Hammer had been raised in a city in humble circumstances. He was a dreamer. Dr. and Mrs. Middeldorf discuss the nature of social stratification. Mrs. Middeldorf remembers Hammer as a man who would gesture with his hands while speaking. Dr. Middeldorf does not believe that Hammer wrote poetry, but he had the soul of a poet.

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Keywords: Intelligence; Poor; Vienna, Austria; Working class

Subjects: Intelligence; Poor; Social classes; Vienna (Austria); Working class

Partial Transcript: Uh, is it your impression, you may not know anything about this, uh, but is it your impression that this is a taste he developed almost on his own?

Segment Synopsis: Dr. Middeldorf recalls Hammer as being outspoken, with strong views against modern art. Middeldorf and Hammer never discussed Chicago architecture, and he does not know whether Hammer actually discussed architecture with anyone. It is possible that Hammer separated his friendships into compartments.

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Keywords: Chicago architecture; Chicago, Illinois; Modern art; Thomas Merton

Subjects: Art, Modern; Chicago (Ill.); Chicago architecture and urbanism; Merton, Thomas, 1915-1968; Modernism (Art)

Partial Transcript: There of course were some contemporaries that he was involved with.

Segment Synopsis: Hammer seemed to favor non-modern art and architecture. He was interested in Catholicism. His friend was Thomas Merton. There was an author whose works Hammer did not publish, named Wallace Stevens, who felt that Hammer was a contrary man. He was an anachronism. Middeldorf discusses the fact that Hammer knew his own mind, so that the description of contrary is not meant to be understood in a negative sense. The last time Middeldorf saw Hammer was in Florence. Mrs. Middeldorf also remembers the last visit Hammer made. That visit seemed to be a continuation of other visits.

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Keywords: Thomas Merton; Wallace Stevens

Subjects: Merton, Thomas, 1915-1968; Stevens, Wallace, 1879-1955