Interview with Lyman T. Johnson, August 9, 1978

OWENS: My name is Edward Owens and I'm working with the Urban League on the Oral Black History Project. I'm speaking with Mr. Lyman Johnson, one of the leaders in the fight to desegregate the University of Kentucky. Mr. Johnson, could you start us off by giving us some of your personal background, when you were born and when you came to Lexington.

JOHNSON: Um, I was born in 1906. I was born in Columbia, Tennessee. Uh, I have gone to school in several places. Um, I have, uh--

[Pause in recording.]

JOHNSON: --I attended Knoxville College, uh, for the academy department because my high school in Columbia, Tennessee did not, uh, properly prepare me for college work. After two years in the academy at Knoxville College I 00:01:00then transferred to Virginia Union at, at Richmond, uh, Virginia. Three years there and I graduated with a bachelor's degree in ancient languages, specializing in Greek. Three years of college Greek. Uh, then I, uh, graduated in 1930, which pushed me right out into the world, business world, the world of employment at the very beginning of the Great Depression in the 1930s. So I languished, literally, for three years without a job. But during those three years I was fortunate enough to get, uh, various and sundry scholarship aids and so forth. I put in two-and-a-half years at University of Michigan in 00:02:00nineteen--uh, my first year, 1931, I received my master's degree, then I took a year-and-a-half of additional study in the field of history and poli--political science at the University of Michigan. And then, uh, for a little while, uh, still was feeling the pangs, of, uh, unemployment, no job, terrible despondent and, uh, much to my surprise I landed a job here in Louisville teaching in the, uh, Central High School and I started that job in 1933. Then '33 to '63 I was employed in Louisville, uh, Louisville Central High School and, uh, 00:03:00then, uh, I, I was made assistant principal in some of the, uh, some of the junior high schools and, uh, ended up my forty years of teaching work as assistant principal of one of the Catholic high schools, Flaget High School. That's just about--covers my activity as, as to, uh, education and employment. Uh, several times I, I went back for summer school work during my teaching career. Um, did obtain two summers at University of Wisconsin, one summer at the University of Kentucky. One summer I took a, an economic workshop summer session down in Union College at Barbourville, Kentucky. And put in two years 00:04:00in the United States Navy. I, I think that just about takes care of my occupation and, and education.

OWENS: Okay.

JOHNSON: Uh, let's see. Um, I think maybe I misstated one thing. Um, I was at, uh, Central High School for thirty-three years. So I left there in '66, not '63. I started in '33 and I left in '66, then put in five years as assistant, uh, principal, uh, from place to place. And, uh, that rounded out forty years and I retired in '73. Been retired since then.

OWENS: Would you discuss the attempts to desegregate the University 00:05:00of Kentucky?

JOHNSON: Yes, sir. In 1939 I belonged to a group of young activists and much to my displeasure my activism was misinterpreted and many people classed me as a radical and, uh, and some even--those who wanted to discredit me, uh, even went a step further and said I was a revolutionary. And then some even beyond that said I was just an out and out, uh, Communist. Now, with all of the experience I'd had in the Depression it was very difficult for me to delineate 00:06:00between plain activism--

OWENS: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --for improvement of the situation and being a, an anar--anar--what is it? A nihilist who just wrecked the whole system and not give a damn whether we reconstructed it or not. Just wrecked it. So, now, I wasn't a wrecker. I was a reconstructor and those who didn't like me, uh, didn't see anything constructive in my efforts -----------(??). But I plowed through from thirty--say 00:07:00'36 I was beginning to get my feet on the ground. I started teaching here in '33. And like all beginning teachers I had to, had to kind of feel my way around and be sure that I, I was on the payroll first. Then after, say, '36, '37, '38, I began to hack away at what I considered imperfections on what could be a good system. Now, our Constitution, United States Constitution, is a document that calls for good government and I'm committed to the, to the implementation of what's called for in the Constitution of the United States. Now, I don't temporize with those who pussyfoot with the implementation. If the 00:08:00Declaration of Independence of the Constitution, with all of its amendments stand for first-class citizenship for all citizens then I think we ought to implement that philosophy into practicality. Then about 1939 I had been elected president of the Louisville Teachers Association, teachers in Negro schools, and rigid segregation in those days. And, uh, I really was too much of an activist for the general run of the mill teacher who wanted a better society 00:09:00but they were--they didn't have the guts to stand up and not demand, just not--they didn't have the guts enough to stand up and request equal treatment--but I got along pretty well as president of this organization. I scared the hell out of the--all of the, all of the Negro teachers. After three years they had the idea that I was going to get them all fired. I just laughed at the idea. If they fire all of us, they'll have to get as many more to take our places and so in the general run of things it won't be worth it. So go ahead and get fired. Who gives a damn. And that was too reckless for my fellow teachers. But in the long run we carried a suit against the city board, Louisville City Board of Education because they were paying us 00:10:00fifteen percent less pay then they were paying white teachers for doing the same work except that--we had to have the same training, same qualifications, teach out of the same book, but we, black teachers taught black children, white teachers taught, taught white children. Same number of hours. Same accreditation. Fifteen percent less pay. We won that suit and all the teachers said, "Well, he isn't so bad after all." My stock in public esteem went sky high. That was back as early as 1941. Forty-two we were trying to see how could we bring a suit against either the University of Louisville or the University of Kentucky to get somebody, some black student admitted to one of these 00:11:00two schools. And everybody just thought in those days that was just reckless. That was just, just nonsensical. Black people didn't have faith and, and, and the white people thought we were crazy. But the Constitution said it. All people born in the United States are naturalized, subject to the jurisdiction of the United States--are citizens of the United States. And as citizens they are entitled to all the rights and privileges of citizens in several states. Now, when I come walking up saying, "I want my citizenship," I--that isn't revolutionary in, in the political sense, sense of the word. That's 00:12:00just literal. Literal. I, it's actually saying they are entitled to the same rights and privileges and, now, now here, the Univer--great big thing up there at Lexington called a university. On what basis could they tell me I couldn't go to school or any black couldn't go to school? If they let any citizen come in they got to let all citizens come in. So we tried to get some, some young youngster who was willing to go there. Well we started in '42, '43, '44, '45. We couldn't find anybody had, had the guts enough. All the smart little black people who had just finished high school said they were not going up 00:13:00to that damn prejudiced school even if the court said go there because the new white professors would flunk them out. So what they wanted to do was to, with fear and trepidation go to a northern university where at least, uh, other blacks had already been and most of them, uh, had gotten along fairly well. They didn't want to come down and go to one of these southern universities and have, have prejudice used against them which would end up in--having on their records that they flunked out freshman class, couldn't make it in a white school. Well, by thirty----by forty, '46 we were beginning to give up, my little 00:14:00group, they were beginning to say, "Let, let's get practical about this thing and, and let's just send, let's just -----------(??) Negro kids to go to Louisville Municipal College or to Kentucky State College at Frankfort." Now, Louisville Municipal was the Negro adjunct to the University of Louisville. It was the Negro school at the University of Louisville. Not on the campus. On a separate, uh, piece of ground just about one city block square. All of that housed the Negro school which was a unit--which was the college of the University of Louisville. Well, Kentucky State was the college for Negros for the whole state of Kentucky. Well, it, uh, it was depriving the black 00:15:00students of freedom of choice to go to any school they can matriculate. They have got just as much right to go to Eastern or Morehead or Western or Murray or the University of Kentucky or the University of Louisville as any other citizen. After six years, 1948, my group said, "Lyman, you are getting old. You are getting old now. Aren't you, aren't you putting too much pressure on these young people to try to get them to go? Why don't you go?" They said that I had, been to the Navy, put in two years, and I had what they called GI 00:16:00benefits. I could go to school up there at the government expense and, uh, "Why don't you go up there? You got as much courage as you are suggesting that these young people should have?" I said, "Well, hell, I, I've gotten all the education I particularly need right now to, to teach in high school and I'm not looking forward to teaching anywhere else. So I don't, I don't particularly need to go. It's these young people." They said, "Yes, but they don't have nerve enough to go. Is it, is that you don't have nerve?" I said, "Well," they said, "Why don't you go?" I said, "Well, it looks silly for me to be going around. It's going to cost a lot of money, it would be silly for me to go around raising money to send somebody to the University of Kentucky and that somebody turns out to 00:17:00be the chief in the fundraising campaign. Myself. They said they'll take the responsibility of selecting the person if I would go. I said, "Well, hell, you, you called my bluff. Now if you think I, I don't have the courage, uh, to go." So I applied in 1948 to the University of Kentucky and the dean, Dr. Maurice Seay, S-E-A-Y, Dr. Maurice Seay, he, he was the, uh, dean for admissions, I think, at that time. He wrote me a letter telling me because of my race I could not be admitted but here I am standing up there, had gone down filled in all my little cards and, and, uh, I'd gone through all that long line , took 00:18:00me about an hour-and-a-half to fill out all the cards and here I was standing there at the reg--at the, uh, cash register's counter and over the, uh, treasurer or whatever the man's name was, the registrar who was to receive the funds, over his shoulder was this Dr. Seay. And they, they understood that I was in line and, uh, when I got up there, had my hand on my money to pay my tuition and everything. And Dr. Seay said, said to the young man at the cash register, "Don't take his money." And I looked up at him and I, I said, "Why?" I asked, "What's wrong with it? It's the United States currency." And you could pay it in cash--I mean in, in check. I didn't pay--I didn't offer to pay in che--uh, uh, with a check. United States greenback. "Don't take his money." I 00:19:00said, "Why?" He said, "Aren't you Mr. Johnson?" I said, "That's correct. Lyman Johnson." He said, "Didn't I write you a letter telling you you couldn't go to school here?" I said, "Yes, you did but, uh, but, but what does that have to do with this?" He said, "Well, I, I told you you couldn't go to school here." I said, "But here I am." I said, "Now why can't I go to school? Uh, uh, I presented my credentials. My transcript from the University of Michigan showing that I had put in two-and-a-half years up there and I passed everything I took up there. And got a master's degree the first year I was there. I'd been to the University of Wisconsin for two summers. I passed everything I took over there. Now, what is this joint that you got down here that, uh, I, I can't take?" And he said, "Aren't, aren't, aren't you, uh--" And he fumbled around and 00:20:00finally drug out the word Negro. "Aren't you a Negro?" I said, "That's none of your damn business. I'm a citizen of the United States and the Constitution says that if I'm a citizen of the United States that makes me a citizen of any state I live in and I live in Kentucky and I've been here long enough to establish residence and, uh, and, uh, and that makes me entitled to anything you got here in this state." I said, "One of the, one of the privileges of, uh, of being a citizen of the United States and of Kentucky is to go to the University of Kentucky." So he told the young man, he said, "Don't--I said don't take his money." I said, "Okay. Now who else can I see? Whom else can I see?" He suggested that I go see the chancellor or the president. And I said-- 00:21:00he said, "But they'll tell, tell you the, they'll tell you the same thing." I said, "Well, I'm going to sue all of you." And standing right back of me was an attorney and the president of the Louisville NAACP and the president of the Lexington NAACP and, uh, two reporters and, and two preachers. They really were acting--they, they kind of looked like they were my bodyguards and, uh--but they were my encouraging, uh, secondaries. Well, um, we walked on out and down to the courthouse and put in a suit. They rejected me in '48. The suit was 00:22:00handled through the courts from the summer session of '48 until March of '49. In March of '49 the judge, much to the embarrassment of Mr., Mr. President, Dr. Donovan and Dr. Seay and the governor of the state of Kentucky. Judge H. Church Ford handed down an oral statement, "Let this man into the University of Kentucky and if he walks across the campus tomorrow give him any right, any privilege that you extend to any other citizen of the United States. Just his very presence must be respected as a citizen of the United States. 00:23:00And he is entitled to any right or privilege that is extended to anybody else on the campus or under the supervision, in place of the supervision of the University of Kentucky or any one of you may come down and sit in my courtroom for contempt. Now, Mr. Donovan and Mr. Seay, and I think it was Mr. Clements, well, all of you, any of tyou, objects to this man coming on the campus, well, you will be, you will be held in contempt of court." Now, that opened up--uh, when the summer session began in '49, I went up there and took one summer. I think I made two As, and a B or two Bs and an A. I don't remember. It was something like that. At lea--at least I passed three courses in 00:24:00graduate school and, uh, uh, thirty-one of us blacks went to the University of Kentucky for the summer of 1949 and some did well and, as usual, some didn't do too well. But it was hardly a matter of race. It was a matter of just the normal flow. Some pass, some don't. Uh, most of us got along so well that we could not actually raise a complaint that they were holding any, any--showing any racial, uh, uh, antagonism to us. Students or, or faculty or any, any other -----------(??).

OWENS: Going back a little, sir, who was the little group that you spoke of?

JOHNSON: Oh, just, uh, just a bunch of--mainly my, my teacher friends, radical teacher friends. Uh, uh, I could name some of them. Rufus Stout. Rufus Stout was a teacher in one of the junior high schools. -------(??) Jackson, uh, was a teacher in one of the junior high schools. -------(??) Jackson, uh, went on--gave up trying to beat his head as, as he said I was, beat, beating his head against a stone wall. He gave up and went back to the University of Michigan, got his PhD in English and then moved down to work in a college. He taught at Case and Western and at, uh, Southern University and I think he's now a professor of English down at North Carolina University.

OWENS: Okay.

JOHNSON: Now, -------(??) Jackson, uh, Yolanda Barnett, uh, Yolanda 00:26:00Barnett, uh, -------(??) Dudley, um, -------(??) , um, Robert Lowry, uh, E.T. Woolridge, Carl Forbes. One fellow, F.A. Taylor, we called him Pops Taylor; he was a bit older than the rest of us but we liked him quite a bit. And, yeah. I can name several others. There were just about seventeen of us who were considered the Young Turks and, uh, once we found that we had--once we found how strong we could be then we began to assume that we were as strong as we could be and, uh, we did get rambunctious. Uh, we we, uh, moved in on the, on 00:27:00the old guard in the NAACP, kind of took over the NAACP and we worked around with the Urban League and, uh, we, we just, we just began to see that--we just got courage out of accomplishments and we just moved from one step to the next. So we worked on parks and we worked on libraries and we worked on just any failures of life that had to be contented with and that was the little group.

OWENS: Why was UK pinpointed instead of, say, U of L?

JOHNSON: The first, uh, of those youngsters we were going to send, we were going to send him to UK. The next one we were going to--her, her preference was, uh, to go to the University of Louisville. We were going to back 00:28:00whichever one would go to whichever place. First one who would go and to whichever place they choose.

[Pause in recording.]

JOHNSON: Now, uh, in the final analysis it was no, it was no question as to whether the University of Kentucky was a private or a public school. Obviously it was a public school. Now, these civil rights cases are easier won if you want access to a public facility than to a private. To go to a park is a, 00:29:00um--a public park should be open to all citizens. Should be open to all people. But I emphasize citizens. But a private park ought to be open only on invitation of those who own the joint. The University of Louisville contended that the university was a private school in those days and they had the right to invite whomever they chose. And if they, uh, they didn't want to, uh, accept, uh, Negroes for any reason, being a private school they could, uh, reject them.

OWENS: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Now, we were prepared to go either way, UK or U of L. But we 00:30:00chose--when I decided to go we chose to go to the University of Kentucky because it was admittedly a private school. If we--

OWENS: A public school.

JOHNSON: A public school. If we had decided to go to the U of L we would have had two suits. The first suit to prove that they were a public school and second that I got a right to go to a public school. Now, the basis that we were going, we could win but we'd just have two suits and we didn't have any money. And we were on a, on a shoestring a little bit. Um, but the basis for winning on the U of L thing is that we had found out that the University of Louisville 00:31:00got fifteen percent of its resources from the univer--from the, the city of Louisville. And if, if any money comes from the, from the government, any part of the government, at least that fifteen percent is public and we were intending to prove that when they spent that fifteen percent in running the school. Wherever the fifteen percent was spent we wanted our share of that fifteen percent. If you mix it in with eighty-five percent, like when you bake a cake, only fifteen percent may be, uh, the ingredients of one particular kind but when you mix it in with eighty-five percent, that's your fault for mixing it in. And, and when you get a bite of the cake, we get a part of the 00:32:00eighty-five, that's, that's your fault. You should have kept our fifteen percent separate. Now, how are you going to have a university when you take out fifteen percent of the ingredients in -----------(??) that permeate the whole thing. So we could win and the lawyers, well, were giving us encouragement that we would win both suits if we went to U of L but it'd be more expensive to go to U of L though and the--for that reason, uh, we said, "Well, we'll, we'll knock the University of Kentucky off first and that would be it. And just as soon--in 1949 we won the fi--uh, the University of Kentucky case and then while we were in high gear it wasn't any trouble then to raise some money and we raised enough money to start another suit and we had a brief written and, uh, then I remember being on the--as president of the NAACP here, , uh, I was chairman of 00:33:00the, of the committee of five that went down to talk with the, the president of the, um, University of Louisville board of trustees and we told him, "You've got five weeks to open up this place or we'll make you eat salt out of our hand just like we did the people at the University of Kentucky." Said, "Now, if you want to be humiliated like Mr. Donovan was, Mister, uh--Dr. Seay, uh, the dean and president of the University of Kentucky, if you want to be embarrassed like they were, don't open up this place and we'll sue the hell out of you and we will win and, and, and we're not now, not now willing to, to, to compromise with anybody. We are fresh from victory. We know what we can do. And it's up to you 00:34:00now as to whether we do it to you or not. And, uh, before the five weeks was up I looked in the morning paper. They never gave me, they never gave me a formal answer to my--hm, shall I call it ultimatum--but I read in the morning paper about three weeks after that that the University of Louisville board of trustees voluntarily opened their doors to Negro students for the fall of 1950 in the graduate school and 1951 in the undergraduate school. Now, they have written recently into some archives out at the U of L that they voluntarily opened the door of the university for the fall of 1950 and I, when I heard about 00:35:00it, when I, when I was given an opportunity to make a statement to go right along with those records that go into the archives of the University of Louisville, that they were just lying. The board, anybody who says they voluntarily--uh, they just lie. I use the word lie because that it--I, I've got the proof that I was raising money all through '49 for the suit against the University of Louisville and it is explicitly stated in week after week of the Louisville Defender, I have copies of those right now showing how much money we raised. The first week we, we reported we had only 348 dollars. About 00:36:00five weeks later we were reporting we had about thirteen thousand and another week we had some more and some more. Where the money came from? Who was giving fifty dollars? Who was giving five dollars and all that kind of stuff? We would list it in the paper. And, and, and if anybody says that the University of Louisville -----------(??)----------with all the facts that I can present I boldly say-----------(??) judge, either ignorant or they were lying. If they knew better, they were lying.

OWENS: Okay, sir. How did you view President Donovan?

JOHNSON: Oh, he was a fine fellow. Fine fellow. Uh, I, I, I actually sympathized with him when the judge was reading the riot act to him because as he told me later, he said, "Mr. Johnson, did you understand all through that 00:37:00case that I knew better, I knew what the Constitution of the United States said, but the United States government was not paying my salary. The Kentucky state legislature, the Kentucky people were paying my salary and their constitution said separate the races. Separate the students because of their race and not let any blacks come into the University of Kentucky. Send them down to Frankfort." He said, "Now, the people who were paying my salary were demanding that I segregate." He said, "I knew. But it took you, it took you and your organization to clarify the governmental setup, and to quote the Constitution 00:38:00again. 'No, no, no, uh, act of a state legislature, of a state court, no act of the federal legislature, no treaty, nothing shall stand against the Constitution of the United States.'" He said, "It took you and your group to clarify that to these people here in Kentucky." He said, "Now, my salary goes right on but I couldn't draw my salary with the state legislature until you have this thing clarified. The state legislature could see that I didn't get my pay because I didn't do what they told me to do and that was to segregate." He said, "But now when you clarify the thing, then even the legislature can be held in contempt of court if they violate the federal Constitution."

OWENS: Yes, sir. Did you have any dealings with anybody on the board 00:39:00of trustees about that?

JOHNSON: No, no. No. Uh, I had no, no contact whatsoever with anybody on the board of trustees. As a matter of fact, I didn't know--we didn't have to be concerned in who they were nor what they looked like and, and didn't bother myself to do so. We just sued them as, as a batch and, uh, uh, the suit was held up several months because our lawyers did not include the governor of the state. And when we got into court, uh, the court almost threw our case out because we hadn't listed the governor of one of the people that we wanted to sue.

OWENS: Who was, uh--

JOHNSON: --I think it was Earle Clements. I think about it anyway. Maybe you can check back and make sure of that.

OWENS: Okay.

JOHNSON: But, uh, the judge said, "Well, the, the highest ranking person, the one you ought to list first is not on your list." And one of our, our 00:40:00attorneys said, uh, "Judge, Your Honor, um, uh, we would, uh, we would like to, uh, request permission to amend the suit to include the governor." He said, "Well, if you don't do it, you don't go any further in this court." And, uh, he said, "Court adjourned until, uh--" he gave about five weeks to just add the governor's name and that's the reason why he was so rough on the governor when he got in.

OWENS: When you entered at the University of Kentucky what field of study did you enter?

JOHNSON: Uh, political science. And, and history. It was a combination. I think I took, uh, I think I took two courses. Yeah, two courses in history, one in political science.

OWENS: Okay. Would you discuss any of the faculty members that you 00:41:00came in contact with?

JOHNSON: Yeah. There's a Dr. Trimble who was, uh, my political science teacher. Dr. Trimble was a fine, fine professor. Um, uh, Doctor.--uh, another mighty fine person, Dr. A.B., uh--A.B., uh--A.B. Kirwan. They were two of the professors I had and there were any number of other professors who, uh, knew that I was a seasoned old man with any--I'd been--had been teaching in high schools thirteen years -----------(??)---------- than that. Had been teaching sixteen years already before I got to --so, so I, um, I was, uh, fairly well 00:42:00respected as not just a child. Not, not just one of the youth. Uh, I had much tenure in teaching on the high school level as most of the teachers up there on their level and in their field of competence and in my field, uh, I outranked them on at least tenure. And they, they respected me, um, quite highly and had me come in and talk with them. Uh, I'd go into their offices and some invited me to their homes and they all--with the--and some had a, an apologetic, uh, air. One expressed it very succinctly when he said he used to be a 00:43:00professor at a college, I think he said in Memphis, Tennessee, and he used to just think when he'd be seated up on the campus there out there under one of the trees on a beautiful Sunday afternoon, out on the campus and he'd see black people walk back and forth down the street just outside that big stone wall that rimmed the campus. He said he just imagined what nasty things they must be saying about us white people up here on campus because we wouldn't let them come on the campus. They were not permitted inside the gate. He said, "But Mr. Johnson, I have all the training necessary for a first big university 00:44:00position, PhD and everything." He said, "But I didn't choose to work in that segregated place in Memphis, Tennessee just because I agreed with them. You see, but after all, I had a wife and two children to support and there were not enough jobs up north and I had to get a job somewhere and they offered me a job in Memphis, Tennessee. I took it." He said, "And, and when I got a chance to transfer from Memphis to the University of Kentucky I took it. And when I got here I used to sit out on the yard and wonder what these blacks think when they passed up and down Limestone Street and couldn't come on the campus." He said, "I used to think 'What do they think? What do they think of us?'" He 00:45:00said, "And, and instead of doing anything about it I just continued to draw my check and feed and clothe and house my wife and two children." He said--

[Pause in recording.]

JOHNSON: --'What do they think of us?'" He said, "And, and instead of doing anything about it I just continued to draw my check and feed and clothe and house my wife and two children."

He said, "It's just a matter of economics. All of us don't agree. We hated to see you have to go through all the -----------(??) to get into the place but, by God, we're glad you did." Well, now, there was a professor saying it, the president said it, the dean said it. As a matter of fact, Dean Seay got a promotion--[fire engines]--from the, from his job there and went on to the University of Chicago and after getting up there he saw me and he said, "Mr. Johnson, as much as it hurt me to tell you back there when you 00:46:00offered to put your money in and pay your tuition, as much as it hurt me then to tell you you couldn't go to school at this place, I must admit right now I wouldn't have a job at the University of Ken--Univers--at, at Chicago University if you hadn't come to the University of Kentucky. You made me somebody." He said, "I could have been down here at this school the rest of my life and nobody would ever have heard of me." He said, "Columbia University has invited me a number of times to come over and explain how easily I integrated thirty-one Negroes on the campus of the University of Kentucky." Said, "You made me and I thank you."

OWENS: Were there any faculty members that were harmful to you? That--

JOHNSON: I was quoted--and this is in answer to, answer to your question right directly. I was quoted by the Lexington, I think it's the Lexington Herald. I was quoted one time for the -----------(??) that not one person, faculty, student or any of the employees on the campus, not one person showed open hostility to me. Now, that doesn't mean that everybody wanted me up there. [sirens] The answer to your question is: not one showed any hostility, open hostility to me while I was there. Now, privately, according to the 00:48:00records of the FBI, FBI said they burned seventeen crosses up there on the campus trying to intimidate me. I didn't know that they burned more than about seven or eight but they said they kept up with it and that they burned seventeen -----------(??) as long as they didn't put their hands on me, as long as they didn't do bodily harm to me, they didn't, I -----------(??). I knew they were burning. I knew there was a little radio station down, uh, in Versailles, Kentucky that, uh, on almost any Saturday night you'd hear, hear them ranting and raving and, and they're saying, "Just wait until we get our hands on--"

[Pause in recording.]

JOHNSON: ----other than got my lessons. Uh, I, I knew that many of 00:49:00the--I, I pointed this out. Many of the young people that we tried to get to go to the--either of these two universities, U of L, U--U of K, many of them were afraid that they'd get punched out. Well, I assumed that it would be a point of reassurance to me, just to reflect on the fact that I had already been to two of the Big Ten universities and had cut the mustard up there. Uh, I just assumed that that much would be in my favor. But I didn't take any chances. I knew all my life that I had never been classed as a brilliant person. I had 00:50:00the assurance that I--encouragement to plug my way through and I, I--I may not win the races but I don't come up last. So I took the attitude when I went up there that I was on trial and I'd just say it right straight that I'm the only black in any one of these three classes. And I'll tell you, and I--every, every day it just ran through my mind. "Mr. Professor, you're going to have to flunk out all of these white boys, if you're fair, before you get me. Now, you, you may, may flunk me out but you're going to have to flunk out all these 00:51:00white people to get me." So on that basis, many a night I stayed up until one or two o'clock getting my lessons. Here I am, an old man. Look, look at me, this is seventy-eight, and back then in 1949 I classed myself as an old man. But relatively speaking I was an old man. I have already said I had sixteen years of experience and, uh, three years of graduate school and I wasn't just a freshman, you see. Now, it called for a lot of self-discipline to knuckle in and, and study like I used to study when I was, um, in the graduate school universities. But I, I said, you got to flunk these white boys to get me. So I 00:52:00stayed up and, and I'd go over and go over and go over and go over it. Uh, when I'd go in class eight o'clock the next morning I tried my best to be as bright-eyed as anybody else. I guess, I guess I missed a few questions but so did the white folk. And I got, I got enough right. So did the white folk. We passed.

OWENS: How did the FBI get involved in this?

JOHNSON: Well, that's their business to keep up with, uh, all, all, all sorts of things like this. Uh, they told me three years after the thing was over that they knew when a bunch of white rabble-rousers, uh, came up to the place where I was staying. I was staying up on North Upper Street in the Negro neighborhood and about three o'clock in the morning a bunch of, uh, rabble-rousers 00:53:00came up and, and, uh, shot some pistol shots up in the air right in front of the house where I was staying. Uh, I didn't know it but incidentally that night I had gone out with some of the students, some of the white students to a beer drinking party and, uh, hadn't come in. But the neighbors told me they were trying to intimidate me that night. Uh, the FBI told me they knew about that.

OWENS: Did you hear--

JOHNSON: --they said they kept up with me everywhere I, everywhere I was and I didn't know. But they said they did.

OWENS: Sounds like you didn't have any personal contact with them while you were going through?

JOHNSON: I didn't know it until three, three years after the thing was over. But right here in this house--they came down here. They were still -----------(??) they were still trying to find out if I were a Communist--either a Communist or a Communist dupe, whether the Communists had, uh, furnished the money 00:54:00for me to, uh, fight the case. Basically, was I a troublemaker.

OWENS: Hm.

JOHNSON: Was I causing, uh--was I, uh, setting up all of these things so the Communists could overthrow the government of the United States. No, hell, I don't want to overthrow the thing. I just want to, I just want to make the thing work. It was a good system. My, my biggest point is the, the thing that makes me have such clean slates is that I, I advocate. I go out here in the black community on the night when we were fixing to have a, a, a, riot down here. I'm telling them, "You can win that way. Don't do it this way. You can win but not this way. You can't win by tearing down the government. You need the government to support. You need the government to protect you. Don't tear it down." And, uh, when, when some damn fool jumps on me like they did not so long 00:55:00ago in a public meeting, said, "Hell, if you don't like this country, why don't you leave it?" And I said, "Listen, let me tell you right straight. If my house leaks I don't get mad at the house and leave it soon as it rains. No, I get up on my house and fix it." Said, "And that's my attitude about this United States government. I don't get mad at it and quit. I'll just--if I find that the house leaks I'll just go to go up there and do something about it."

OWENS: Um-hm. During this all, how did the black community in Lexington look at you and the situation--

JOHNSON: At the beginning, at the beginning they thought that I was coming up there--and this is actually the expression that I heard. "Why doesn't that Negro go on down to Kentucky State College like all the rest of us and get 00:56:00his education and go on back to Louisvile? Why does he want to come up here and upset the fine relations we have with white people?" And I just thought and thought and thought how blind can my people get to be. Actually, they thought that I was going to upset the fine relationships that existed between the Lexington people--the Lexington blacks and the good white folk of -----------(??).

OWENS: You said this was in the beginning. Did that change?

JOHNSON: Yes, and I have, I have a, I had a chance to kind of rub it in and I tried to, tried to do it in such a sort of fashion that they didn't know that I was, I was getting a kick out of it. Um, I had chosen to take a 00:57:00course in southern history just before the Civil War and in order to take that course I had to have access to the archives in the Lexington library. The best collection of newspaper articles written ten years--the ten-year period before the Civil War. The best collection in the whole state of Kentucky is in the Lexington library down in the vault. And students at the University of Kentucky, by arrangement between the university and the library may, when 00:58:00property certified, may have access to that basement vault where these--this precious collection is. Took the course, which meant that I was--I had to be properly certified. And nobody wanted to sit in Judge Gordon--Judge, uh, Ford's court for contempt. So nobody, nobody objected to me going down. And after I went down the second time one of the attendants there, incidentally a young man who came from Mississippi, he was assistant librarian--assistant director of the library. He called me over to the side and he showed me a place on 00:59:00the wall where it had not been painted. Just a little block about, uh, eighteen by eighteen inches that hadn't been painted. Obviously there was a picture or there was something up there that had been taken down. Now the rest of the wall had been painted. He said, "We are going to paint the whole wall and when we get around to it, when we get around that little spot up there we are going to paint over that and, and, and, and won't be any, uh, uh, unpainted spot." He said, "You know what used to be there?" I said, "No, I do not." He said, "That used to be a, used to be a sign up over that door that said, 'Colored Reading Room." He said, "But when you came in here, after the first day you came in 01:00:00here, the director ordered the janitor to go up there and take that sign down." He said, "Because we couldn't have a sign up saying 'Colored Reading Room' and have you pass right under it going on down to the vault."

OWENS: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: He said, "Now, you pass the word around in the Negro community here in Lexington that you'll never see that sign again. Just come on in. And don't look for the sign because in, in a day or two we'll paint over that and there will never be any indication as to where black people should go to. So you just pass the word around. That you go down there and we don't say anything and when they tell you, 'Did they, did they put you in the, in the colored reading room?' you'll say, 'No, you--I didn't see it.'" And, and frankly, I didn't 01:01:00see it because when I came down there I -----------(??) and I just walked right on in here. -----------(??) they'd already been told when Lyman Johnson comes down here, just open up the place and let him on in.

OWENS: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Don't make an issue out of it. If you do, you'll go to court.

OWENS: (laughs)

JOHNSON: So maybe there was a sign there.

OWENS: (laughs)

JOHNSON: So I'm--yeah. It was up there the first day but it was down--when I was down there the second day it was down.

OWENS: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: And I don't know. But I got a kick out of going around telling people, "Um, do you, um--have you been to the--how often do you go to the library?" "Oh, man, now, we don't go to that library. We don't want to go to that old dingy, dirty, uh, reading room for--with a big sign up there saying 'For colored,' so we just don't go." I said, "There's not a sign down there, 'For colored.'" "Oh-------(??)? You just, you, you just think just because you're educated and all this kind of stuff, going to the university, you just think--" I 01:02:00said, "Go down and show them." I said, "I'll go down with anybody who believes that there's a sign down there-------(??) go down there and show it to you." And the -----------(??), the--this assistant director told me, he said, "Now, we, the, the board of trustees of the library have passed a motion that this--all signs referring to colored shall be removed but we will not make any issue out of it." He said, "We'll let it die" He said, "So when you integrated the University of Kentucky, you integrated the public library."

OWENS: Uh, frankly -----------(??).

JOHNSON: No, but, uh, the, the side effects taking--

[Pause in recording.]

JOHNSON: --uh, it was just like that, just like that quotation in 01:03:00the, uh, in the, uh, Lexington Herald. I had no reason to complain of any uncivil act on the part of anybody on or off the campus. As a matter of fact, I was kind of a celebrity. I walked in one day to have my watch fixed and after, after talking with the man and getting it all fixed up, he started writing out a card and wrote across there, 'Lyman T. Johnson, University of Kentucky. Come back in ten days your watch will be ready.' Gave me the card. And I said--uh, I looked-------(??) to see if I had a badge or one of these university, uh, tags on me or anything.

OWENS: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Said, uh, "How'd you know my name?" He said, "Oh hell, everybody knows your name. Around this place, everybody knows you." I don't think everybody knows -----------(??).

OWENS: You never completed your doctorate at UK. Why?

JOHNSON: Oh, no, no. Uh, uh, I had a wife and two children. I was getting older. I didn't see where at that time a doctorate would enhance my position in the public schools and I wasn't really that aspiring to go beyond that. And then to take time out then, I would have, uh--I had to choose between future higher aspirations or feeding my wife and kids. And it was their day and I 01:05:00chose not to take off from school. I could have gotten a stipend, I guess, that would have taken care of me but who's going to take care of my wife and two kids and they were getting of, uh, some size. And my daughter was in high school and my son was in junior high school and, um, and my daughter was just looking around at that time and she -----------(??) (coughs) wanted to go to college and whatnot and so, uh, I had to--I chose not to starve my, my wife and kids going out for higher attainments.

OWENS: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: And, uh, the people in the Louisville area suggested that it would look sort of, uh, indifference on my part if I didn't at least go up there 01:06:00one summer. So the first summer after, after winning the case, the summer of '49 I did go up there for one summer. I had no intention of going any, any more than that because, uh, uh, I had family obligations. I just bought this house here and, uh, I hadn't had a chance to, to, uh, do a thing toward fixing it up and it was, it was just -----------(??) when I came into this house it looked like an old barn and much of the work that I've done in here, the carpentry work, I could've have been out there working on a PhD and have my wife live here in, in a barn. It was just a choice between well le--well enough do 01:07:00educational and economic or, uh, reach out for higher attainment and starve the hell out of my wife and kids and not giving them shelter.

OWENS: Um-hm. Dr. Tom Clark, the chairman of the history department at UK, said that you never came to talk to him before you tried to enroll in the history department's doctorial program. Why?

JOHNSON: That was just what I explained. I wasn't interested in a PhD. All I wanted to do is open up the joint for, for the--for you to go to school up there. I'm, I was doing this for the younger people. I, I have my--I got my education. I had two-and-a-half years of, of graduate study. That, that put me, that put me top--heads and shoulders even over the superintendent down here in my time.

OWENS: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: I had my education than the superintendent does. I, I had two-and-a-half, two-and-a-half years at the University of Michigan 01:08:00and two summers, which would really make three years of graduate study. Three years beyond college.

OWENS: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Well, uh, I was making almost as much money here as they made at Kentucky State College with a PhD.

OWENS: Yeah.

JOHNSON: Of course, now, it's a different situation but look how old I am. I wouldn't be getting it anyhow now. So a PhD wasn't going to help me. I, I could have had a job down at Tennessee State making the same money that I made in Central High School. What point was it to go get a PhD and not get any more money? And who, and deprive my wife and kids. So, um, uh, why, why should I bother about going to see Dr. Clark? Uh, he, he hadn't been 01:09:00interested in me before I won my case. So I, I just looked at him like I did all the rest of the, the fellows up there. Uh, you weren't interested in me, I'm, I'm not interested in you. I've got just as much self-respect as you have. Who--He hadn't--before I won my case he didn't invite me to come up there and break up the, break up the lily white party.

OWENS: Okay. After the court had decided in, in your favor, Dr. Clark said that the two of you had a talk in his office.

JOHNSON: That's right.

OWENS: And what, and what did you discuss?

JOHNSON: Oh, we ,uh--both of us are southerners. He came from Mississippi and he has a southern accent, a southern drawl, uh, worse than mine. I came from Tennessee and, uh, I talked about, uh, my grandparents, uh, all being slaves and he talked about his grandparents, which meant that they all were slave owners. We talked about all that kind of stuff.

OWENS: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: And, uh, we thought that, uh, we'd come a long way when 01:10:00his--descendants of his extraction and descendants from my extraction were just sitting up there, uh, with our legs crossed, uh, uh, talking with each other without any fear or, or hesitation. Oh, he was a fine fellow I found out once--and this, this is true of southerners. Nearly all southerners--all those got any sense--nearly all southerners, they are very, very pleased to be extricated from the hamstring effects of tradition. Many of them would treat me or you or anybody else just as nicely as anything if they didn't have 01:11:00to, have to, uh, account to mama and papa and sister and brother, 'Why did you entertain that black person for dinner at your house the night before last?' If they didn't have to explain they'd go ahead and invite you. But they don't want to cut the strings connecting them with their dearest acquaintances, mainly their relatives. At the University of Wisconsin, one little old lady, just as nice and sweet as anybody I have seen, came from my hometown, Columbia, Tennessee, and she invited me over for dinner. We had a beautiful afternoon. We had a, an excellent little time from about three o'clock until, I 01:12:00guess, ten o'clock that night. But several times through that she said, "Now, Lyman, when you get back to Columbia, Tennessee, if you see me out on the street, don't you look at me. Don't mention my name." She, she said, "I don't want you to get lynched and I don't want, I don't want people to, to, to disinherit me because I invited you over here to have dinner in this sorority house with me as my guest. Just don't mention it when you get back to Columbia, Tennessee." She said, "I think it's so silly but, after all, mama and papa are paying all my expenses and doing all this nice stuff." I'm, I'm telling you, that sorority house was--it--she went over big and I helped them live it up. See, I wasn't, I wasn't altogether an old-----------(??) in those 01:13:00days. I helped her live it up. Here was a nice little white girl, blond hair and blue eyes, just as pale faced as she could be except for the rouge and-----------(??)) she put on her and everybody looked--the reddest cheeks, you know. Oh, she was so -----------(??) and refined, a typical southern accent, a, a southern belle. Couldn't do that in Columbia, Tennessee. And she didn't want me to mention it when I got back. Said, "Just don't--just forget it now. Forget it. Forget it" Well, that's, that's, uh, part of life. Uh, Mr. Clark was--Dr. Clark was very fine--I give him credit for being a, a scholar. I give him credit for having high points of integrity. I think he was a, was a fine 01:14:00product of the south, trying to bring light to the south, rather trying to bring light to America with regard to the south. I say he did a good job. But, uh, but I must say he was, he was, he was hamstrung by his ties with people of southern traditions. Didn't know--he, he couldn't extricate himself.

OWENS: Dr. Clark went on to say that he thought you had let down your race because you had failed to disprove the many whites that thought blacks didn't have the mentality to achieve a doctorate.

JOHNSON: How could I, how could I let down the race? How could I let down the race? I think he's wrong. My job in the first place was to, was to open up the doors for my race. That I did. I did what I intended to do. I started in '42 trying to get some young people to go. And it was in '48 that they said they don't have nerve enough to go. They said, "But you don't have nerve either? And you're trying to hide behind all these young--are you trying to force the young people to do what you don't have nerve enough to do?" I said, "Oh, hell, you, you missed the point." So then I go to prove that I'm not--, that, 01:16:00that I got the nerve enough to go on -----------(??) let them burn crosses and let that little radio station down there at Lex--at, um, Versailles. I got after Happy Chandler about it and he said, "Well, you know, that was going on when I was in Washington. I was a senator in Washington and, and I didn't know that it was going on." I said, "Yes, but it was your station. You were responsible for your station. You ought to know what's going on." "Oh, Lyman, I wouldn't, I wouldn't condone that at all." "Well, it was done." Now, uh, I did all that not for myself. I'll tell you that I had a wife and two kids to support at that time.

OWENS: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: And now, some young fellow who is just a young man, young lady just finishing high school or even a person who just finished college and wanted to take graduate work, he wouldn't be tied down with all his family obligations. So I did what I set out to do and, uh, that's just, uh--maybe, maybe 01:17:00that's part of his conscience pricking the hell out of him.

OWENS: Was there ever a time through it all when you felt like it just wasn't worth it?

JOHNSON: Oh, no. Oh, no. No. The thing is-- (coughs) I'm the most optimistic person in the world. I'll stand up and fight, uh, anybody on a matter of principle, on a matter of, of future prospects. A good illustration of this is, uh, when one of the assistant superintendents in the city school, back about nineteen forty--I, probably--I guess it's about '48, one of the assistant superintendents right in front of the board of education, the superintendent, and all the rest of the people, the press and everybody, and a lot of visitors seated out there in the audience, superintendent said, "Why, you, 01:18:00you're the most pessimistic person I have seen yet." And, um, he said, "You're a fatalist. You have no, no, no vision of progress or whatever." And I just let him go ahead and run through his diatribe, and then when he got through, I said, uh, "Dr. --------(??), it seems to me that it--you don't have a clear understanding of two words--the meaning of two words. One is pessimism and the other is optimism." And I said, "I think I must be an optimist, one 01:19:00who believes that progress can be made. I think you are the one who is a pessimist because a pessimist is one who has given up. You're willing to accept the status quo and think that further change is impossible." I said, "You have indicated--you have already said so. You have already said you have done all you can for the little black children in the city of Louisville and beyond that you're not going to do further. Now you've done all you can." I said, 01:20:00"Now, as long as there is segregation in the school, as long as there is segregation in the park, as long as there is segregation -----------(??), uh, -----------(??) places, as long as there's segregation in the restrooms and as long as there's segregation in, uh, in the libraries, I think it takes a lot of courage to look at my employer like you and tell you that a more beautiful day is just around the corner when there will not be segregation up there at the restaurants, restrooms, parks, libraries, parks-----------(??)." I said, "I believe that's -----------(??)." Said, "You don't know, Mr. ---------(??), what a pessimist is and I want to inform you that when you said 01:21:00you've done as much as you can to improve the lots of the black kids and you're not going any farther, that is pessimistic and just the fact that you have the authority, you have the power to see that I am fired and still have the courage here to come and try to reason with you, that's, that's, that's, uh, optimism of the highest -----------(??)." And I said, "And now that's been my philosophy."

OWENS: Mr. Johnson, is there anything that I haven't asked you that you'd like to comment on?

JOHNSON: Well, I'll tell you, you've just about covered-------(??). But I, I would like to say I have never seen a better time, better prospect 01:22:00for young blacks than right now. The situation is getting very, very desperate and for those who can cut the mustard, has -----------(??) good things in store for having -----------(??). The, the opportunities are so great. On the other hand, the thing that bothers me most, so few have been , have been 01:23:00discouraged so much that I'm afraid they've given up hope and for them, there is no -----------(??). That bothers me. There are two sets of black folks. I see them very clearly. Those who, who aspire and are willing to, willing to exert themselves, to prepare themselves and then are willing to reach out and take advantage of those opportunities. That's good. On the other hand, there's a multitude who, who have given up hope and are nothing more--there is nothing more discouraging to me than to see a bunch of people who have so 01:24:00little hope that they have actually given up. -----------(??) some of them actually have told me, "Go ahead, Mr. Johnson. You have your day, you've done well. Done the best -----------(??)." Go on now, we are going to do our thing. I said, "Yes, but your things is, is not constructive." "Mr. Johnson, you had your day. Go on and get out of the way now. We don't want when the law comes and picks us up. We would hate for you to be picked up, too. You know the 01:25:00law pick up all, all around. Go on and get out of the way quick. Move, move. Move." See, you can't win that way-----------(??). "Mr. Johnson, I just spent five years in the penitentiary. I'm ready to go back in there." Another one said, "Mr. Johnson, I've been unemployed for three years." Twenty-one years of age. Hasn't got a job." He said, "At least when they send me to the penitentiary, they have to feed me." He said, "I'm not eating." Said, "Now, you, you got--you got a little retirement. Now you go on down and go to your house, you already paid for the house. You just go on down and enjoy the fruits of your labor. You've done enough. But move along because we are going to 01:26:00raise hell." This was 1968 and, uh, -----------(??)---------- another storefront being broken. And all down in that section, twenty-eight -----------(??), they just broke up and broke up -----------(??). And, uh, much as I predicted, hardly any good was accomplished. All the business places were driven out of existence and now the people who live in that area--when the old people, when they want to get groceries have to, have to scrounge around to get transportation, ten or twelve blocks out of their district to get asprin and all, to get a sack of flour, to get a dozen eggs, have to go so far because all the little 01:27:00-----------(??) places broken up and never -----------(??). One or two people were--one was killed, police shot one person, maybe somebody else was shot and killed, two or three deaths occur and what did they accomplish? Nothing. But I remember them telling me, "Go ahead, Mr. Johnson." -----------(??). For the young people who are willing and game enough to try, the sky's the limit. And for those who have given up, I think I can reasonably predict that hell is not going to be hot enough for -----------(??) and they're 01:28:00-----------(??) because they're going to catch hell-----------(??). That, that bothers me. But I'm pulling the shade down. -----------(??). I had my day. -----------(??).

OWENS: Mr. Johnson, I'd like to thank you for your time and for a very enlightening interview. I really enjoyed talking to you and, um, enjoyed-----------(??). I've just concluded my interview with Mr. Lyman Johnson on the ninth day of August 1978.

[End of interview.]