00:00:00DEATON: This is an interview with Mrs. Mary Brewer for the Oral History
Project, Frontier Nursing Service, by Dale Deaton at approximately 2:30
p.m. on August 10th, 1978 at Wooten, Kentucky.
[Interruption in taping]
DEATON: To begin with, could you tell me first how you became
interested--excuse me--in--in writing the book, and it was first
published under the [title] Bold what, Of Bold Men?
M. BREWER: Of Bolder Men.
DEATON:--Bolder Men.
M. BREWER: Of Bolder Men.
DEATON: And then the second publication was Rugged Trails of Appalachia?
M. BREWER: Rugged Trails of Appalachia, um-hm.
DEATON: Could you tell me how you got involved with the research for the
book, and the eventual publication of the book?
M. BREWER: Well, in 1958, the--Berea College had asked me to do some
00:01:00research for the Ford Foundation. And I started out in the field,
traveling with Rufus Fugate and Ruth Baker, who was a home agent at
that time, and I began to find all these old people that had these
interesting stories to tell me and I began writing them down. And
it just grew and grew from that until I got a good collection and I
thought well, it ought to be shared with others and I decided then to
have it published. And Vernon Baker came to see me then. He knew that
I had this material and said he was interested in publishing it. And
he published it under the title Of Bolder Men, but it fell apart. It
was just a disaster. (laughs) So I quit selling the book because it
did fall apart. It wouldn't stay together. And then I decided there
were so many requests for it that I would write it over again. And
they decided to use it as a part of the centennial celebrations for
Leslie County then. So I did it over for that purpose mostly, that it
might be used for that.
00:02:00
DEATON: A large part of it is sort of a genealogy--
M. BREWER: Yes. Um-hm.
DEATON:--of people who live in Leslie County.
M. BREWER: Yeah.
DEATON: Did you do the--the genealogical research for the book?
M. BREWER: Did it all, uh-huh. I did it. I got the history from Leslie
County by going to the courthouse and talking to old people who were
here, you know, and knew the history of it. The first part of it is
involved with the history and development of Leslie County itself, and-
-and the second part of it contains the genealogical history of about
forty families. And I did research on those mostly by mail. There
was a Barbara Baker Hendrikson connected with the Utah Mormon Salt Lake
City Library, and she did a lot of copy work for me on families from
that. And then there was Homer Ledford. He had a lot of information
on Lewises and Morgans and other families, and from Mary Biggerstaff in
00:03:00Berea. She had a lot on the Lewises and Morgans. Got a lot from them.
And then I started corresponding with Malcolm Huff in California, and
he put me in touch with his brother, Nelson, who lived in Indiana, or
maybe it was Ohio. I've forgotten just where he lives. But he had
written a little pamphlet giving the genealogy mostly of the Huffs,
so I got quite a bit from him about the Huffs. And then I had been
corresponding with the--Emory Hamilton in the Wise County Historical
Library in Virginia. And he sent me a lot of information on the Huffs
and Wells and--and Josephs and other families, and just gradually got
it through like that, by contacting various families.
DEATON: Well, did you have any particular goal in mind when you
wrote the book? Did you approach it in any particular way about your
portrayal of Leslie County?
M. BREWER: Well, so many outside writers had come in and--and given
00:04:00such a terrible account of the people. They had put 'em down a lot in
their articles that I didn't think this was true, because the people
that I met were very intelligent and they were very civilized. They
were not like they were pictured in these articles at all. And I
thought that somebody ought to come through here and give the true
picture of them. And, you know, the Mary Breckinridge--the hospital.
Mary Breckinridge, of course, was the first one, I guess, that put
the people in this area on the map by going out and soliciting aid, and
naturally most of their material was slanted toward the poorer class of
people. They didn't tell anything about the fine homes that were here.
It was always the little shacks on the hillsides and people going
without clothing and half-starved and barefoot. So that most people
in--outside of Kentucky, they got the wrong idea, and I--I thought that
ought to be corrected.
DEATON: Um-hm.
M. BREWER: So I wanted to make a better approach to it and show that the
00:05:00people are intelligent, that they are capable of doing great things,
too, and I just wanted to make a better image of the people.
DEATON: Um-hm. I've had several people comment, too, and that they feel
as though the Frontier Nursing Service has portrayed the people--
M. BREWER: Um-hm.
DEATON:--to others in a manner that--that will continue donations to
the FNS.
M. BREWER: That's right. That's the main purpose of their presentation,
you know, is to secure money for the operation of their projects that
they have and their--their hospital, so--
DEATON: Well, obviously when that--when Mary Breckinridge and the
FNS were first becoming involved in Leslie and--and Clay and Perry
counties, they provided a great service, and the people obviously
appreciated it a great deal.
M. BREWER: Oh, yes. Yes, it was one of the greatest things that's
ever happened to Leslie County. And, of course, when she did come
in there, the conditions were not too far from the way she presented
'em because I know when the first nurse came in here, she found there
00:06:00was a terrible trachoma epidemic and there were no--there were no--no
toilets in---inside or very few outside. No screens on the doors. And
she found terrible health conditions, and the nearest hospital at that
time was Jackson. And so it--it was a great need to--when the hospital
came, when the Frontier Nursing came. It was one of the greatest needs
that we had in this area.
DEATON: Well, there's presently among many people around the county sort
of the feeling that the FNS is getting away from the way it used to be,
and that--and that it--it doesn't work with the people as it used to
be. How do you feel about that?
M. BREWER: Well, I think that's true. They're getting more
commercialized like other hospitals, you know, and their fees are
getting to be enormous and (laughs) it--it's--it's just--'course they
have to do that, I guess, to keep up with the trend or the--the other
00:07:00hospitals that are doing this. But it seems to me that it takes a
person with a really good income or else they're on welfare, one, to
afford any of the hospital services, even the Frontier Nursing Service.
For instance, I went over there with a--with an infection on my legs
on the inside where it was itching, and I--I made four trips over
there and they didn't help me in the least and it cost me a hundred and
sixteen dollars, and I thought that was just outrageous so I decided
I wouldn't go back again. But I did after I got these shingles, and
I went over to see a doctor about that and he gave me a wet soak which
was certainly the wrong thing to do because it caused all the tops of
my blisters just to fall out--off and I was a solid sore. I'm just now
getting--the scabs are just beginning to fall off a little bit. But a
wet soak certainly wasn't the thing to do, but I just think they didn't
know how to treat shingles was the problem. 'Cause they see such--it's
such a rare thing evidently, there's not very many cases of it, and he
00:08:00was a young doctor, too, so I doubt that he's had very much experience
with it.
DEATON: Well, did--did the people at FNS finally take care of the
shingles, or did you go to the public--
M. BREWER: No, I called the county health nurse, Miss [Esther] Carberry.
She's been coming over and--and treating me ever since that, when the
tops came off the blisters. And she started putting Vitamin E oil on
'em which is very healing. And I've continued to use that, keeping the
scabs soft so that most the time when I rub that on they'll just slip
them off if they're ready to come off. So they're healing up quite
well now, but I still have an awful lot of pain. But they don't know
how to treat it evidently. They--they just say it's a virus, that same
thing that causes chicken pox, and they don't know what to do for it
except just let it run it's course.
DEATON: Are you acquainted with other people who have had similar
experiences with the--
M. BREWER: Oh, the old people did. I should have told you--I guess
I told you about what they recommended that I use for treatment of
shingles.
DEATON: Um-hm!
00:09:00
M. BREWER: You take a black chicken. It has to be completely black, not
even a white feather or colored feather on it. And you wring its head
and pull the--get the blood out of it and put the warm blood on, and
they say that cures it in two or three (laughing) days.
DEATON: In two or three days?
M. BREWER: Yeah. I even had two people offer to send me a chicken, but
I--I refused, of course. I wasn't interested. (laughter)
PITTS: You never can tell ----------(??).
DEATON: Normally, how long would it take to cure the shingles?
M. BREWER: Well, now, this doctor in Harlan, when I first went to him,
he said he'd--said that I would have pain for six months. But most
of the people who have had an experience with it, they say about three
months. That the pain gradually diminishes after that. But it's
pretty bad though for about three months.
DEATON: Are there other ailments that people around here have prescribed
remedies for that you're familiar with?
M. BREWER: Well, yeah, I guess they have remedies for all of 'em--for
most of their diseases.
DEATON: Hmm. Well, to go back for--to your book for a minute, with the
00:10:00genealogies on some of the families in--in Leslie County, is there any
particular way that you wanted those genealogies portrayed in the book?
M. BREWER: Well, I tried not to use anything that was detrimental to
the family, that could be--hurt the family in any way. I know I did
run across some things like illegitimacy and things of that type,
and I didn't feel necessary to--it was necessary to include that so
I--I just, more or less, skipped over that because there were better
things to show than that. So I just left those out. And some families
actually had so much illegitimacy in their families that they wouldn't
give me their history. I found two families like that. And they were
reluctant to talk about it and they just wouldn't--wouldn't give me
any information, so I just forgot that line of information and didn't
pursue it any further.
DEATON: And how do you feel the--the county citizens have accepted the
book?
M. BREWER: Oh, I think it's fine. It's selling real well. Nancy's
00:11:00Nook at Hyden is selling it and she's just sold an awful lot, and she
says she thinks it will continue to sell for at least another year
real well. I was thinking about reducing the price, but she said,
"No, don't do that, because it's selling too well and there's a great
demand for it yet." And I was just going through, making a list of some
of the orders that I've gotten. I've gotten orders from California
and Washington, D.C.. I don't have all of 'em copied down yet, but
almost every state in the Union, I'm still getting orders from them.
I had an advertisement put in the Jackson County Rural Kentuckian,
which goes evidently to every state in the Union because from that
I've been getting a lot of orders from that. And then the Knox County
Genealogical Society carried a good advertisement in their book, but
there's only a hundred and sixty-eight families that receive that so
it didn't get a very wide distribution there. But it's still selling
00:12:00well. The people in Leslie County are buying it as they can afford it,
when the can come in and get it.
DEATON: Well, from my understanding, your book is the only one that
deals directly with Leslie County?
M. BREWER: Yes. Now, there is another one that is out. Sadie Wells,
I guess you've heard of this one that just recently came out, and it's
called Trail to Cutshin. I haven't read it, but I think it contains
about the same information as--as mine does, only maybe hers has a few
different families in it that mine doesn't have. For instance, hers
will probably have the Stidhams because I didn't have them because--
actually I left them out because I knew she was working on that and was
going to include the Stidhams in her history, and I didn't want to--
PITTS: Overlap?
M. BREWER:--overlap her information, and I thought maybe that it might
hurt her book, too, and I didn't want to do that because I want to help
people rather than hurt people. (laughs)
DEATON: Is--is Sadie Stidham her married name, or is Sadie Stidham her
mar---her maiden name?
00:13:00
M. BREWER: I think it's her married name. She was a Wells. I'm--I'm
not sure whether she was a Wells or not. Clyde?
C. BREWER: Yeah!
M. BREWER: Come here a minute. You--
[Interruption in taping]
M. BREWER: --Sadie is a Stidham, then. I guess she's never been married
as far as I know. If she has, I just don't know it. But she's always
been Sadie Stidham as far as I know. And I'm interested in reading
her book. I never have read her manusprit---manuscript, but it must be
quite interesting. She's a schoolteacher and must be quite capable of
writing, too. She's a--
DEATON: Oh, you're not originally from--from Leslie County?
M. BREWER: No, I came to Leslie County with the W.P.A. [Workd Progress
Administration] program as a social worker around 1939. I had taught
school one year in Paintsville, in the high school there at--just a
few miles out of--of Paintsville at Meade Memorial High School. And
then I'd worked before that for a little bit with the government, and
they asked me to come back, so I left the school after that one year in
00:14:001938, and came back to the project--W.P.A. project in 1939, and they
sent me to this area as a social worker. And I started from Richmond,
Kentucky and was transferred to Owsley County. From Owsley County
I went to Rowan County, and from Rowan to Perry, and from Perry to
Leslie, and this is where I ended up. (laughs)
DEATON: Well, what type of duties or responsibilities did you have as a
social worker?
M. BREWER: I had to certify people for the work program. Visit the
homes and see if they were needy and get a good family case history,
and certify them for the work projects that they had.
DEATON: Um-hm. Well, by 1939, the time that you were in here, the
Depression was over to some extent.
M. BREWER: Yeah, it was--yeah, it was some o---getting over. When I
first came in here I drove a Model T Ford. And I parked it right in
front of the courthouse in Hyden and there was no streets there. It
00:15:00was--it was just dirt there and the hogs were rooting around in front,
and I had to scare the hogs away to get a place to park. (laughs) And
then shortly after that I went back to Beattyville and I traded the
car in for a new Ford Coupe, and then I came back to Leslie County and
right after that, then, I met Clyde. (laughs)
DEATON: Well, in your opinion, did the people, in 1939, did they
actually have less than they did, say, in 1930 or was it--was it to the
point that they had more? Did--do you think the people here suffered a
great deal because of the--of the Depression?
M. BREWER: I believe they must have because there were people that--that
actually didn't have enough food to eat. And the--the--they just
seemed to be right on the point of starvation and--and we visited a lot
of those families there that were able to do better after they became
00:16:00members of the work crews or were certified for W.P.A. But they wanted
to penalize them for buying a radio or a car or something like that,
and I sort of wanted to let 'em have that because I figure they need
something other than just food. And finally we did manage to certify
'em in spite of the fact that they may have had a car to get to work in
or a radio at that time.
DEATON: Um-hm. Um-hm. How much did a--did a person make working for
W.P.A.?
M. BREWER: Now, I've forgotten.
DEATON: What--what would the county workers--
M. BREWER: Clyde worked on the C.C.C. [Civilian Conservation Corps]
program. How much did you make a day, Clyde?
C. BREWER: Oh, I worked--I was a--I was a--
M. BREWER: As a--
C. BREWER:--section foreman, I guess they called 'em.
M. BREWER: Yeah?
C. BREWER: Would make about forty-five dollars a month. They paid you
forty-five dollars a month and your board and your clothes and whatnot
00:17:00and so on. Thirty dollars--thirty dollars was what they--what they
actually paid then on the 3-C's. Twenty-five of that went home and
you kept five on payday. And then--then you'd ride home and get the
twenty-five back. That's--that's ----------(??). (laughs)
DEATON: Well,--
C. BREWER: I imagine, I don't know. But--
DEATON: Well, at--at about the time that you came here, what types of
education was available? You think it--that adequate education was
available to the people?
M. BREWER: Well, now, they had--I've forgotten how many one- grade--
one--one-room schools in the county then. There were--they had only one
high school and that was at the old building there in Hyden, and they
had--most of the schools were one-room schools and far out into the
county. They didn't have the buses for transportation at that time.
00:18:00And the education was hampered a great deal. I remember the first
year I taught in the high school in Hyden, there was a girl entered
school there who had never been to Hyden, and I thought that was an
amazing thing that a girl could live far back in the county that far
and get ready for high school and never be at Hyden. She'd never been.
But there was lots of cases like that. The people just didn't travel
very far.
DEATON: Um-hm. Yeah.
C. BREWER: And they didn't have nowhere else to go.
M. BREWER: And they'd never been on a train. I imagine three- fourths
of the people in Leslie County right now have never been on a train.
So it's the travel. They were hampered a great deal by travel, and
conveniences were not open to them as early as it was to other places.
Electricity didn't come until nineteen and forty- eight to places
like Wooten and out--out of Hyden. So we--when we first married, we
00:19:00lived in a little house on the other side of the creek over there, and
we had coal oil lamps and--and kept our own cow. Clyde milked and had
the horse and did his own plowing and (laughs) raised a garden. And we
lived quite--but those were good days. They--they were--we didn't--we
never thought about locking our doors at night because of crime or
anything. There just wasn't anything like that known. Now, I wouldn't
dare lay down and go to sleep without locking my door. (laughs) So
it's--there's been a great deal of change in the lives of the people.
DEATON: Without mentioning any student particularly, how do you--what
do you feel about the capabilities of the students that you taught in
Leslie County?
M. BREWER: Some of them I found were rating right up in the genius
range. Around nineteen and sixty-some, I guess we started giving
the Intelligence Quotient Test, Binet-Simon Test, and we found there
were a few that rated--their I.Q. was a hundred and forty-five, and
00:20:00that's very unusual that--it's very high. The standard--the norm I.Q.,
I think, is a hundred nationwide, and--but we found 'em way above a
hundred lots of times. And there are--we have quite a few people in
Leslie County who are very intelligent, and they're--the children are
intelligent. We found that especially so. And one of the doctors that
was working for Frontier Nursing Service, she made tests on some of the
earlier children. She found their I.Q. quotients were very high.
DEATON: I think that was Ella Woodyard--
M. BREWER: Yes. Uh-huh.
DEATON:--from Columbia.
M. BREWER: Yeah, that's right. But they--the people had been put
down and I didn't like it because I planned to live here. This is--I
consider this my home now and I love all the people and they're my
people and I wanted to see 'em get a lucky break. (laughs) So I think
my book's helping to do that.
00:21:00
DEATON: Well, the students that scored higher on the I.Q. tests, or
relatively high, were they from any identifiable economic group or
social group within the county?
M. BREWER: I think they were just normal like everybody else. They were
neither rich nor poor. Maybe some of them poor, some medium. Just
average families.
DEATON: Um-hm. You said electricity came to Wooten about 1948. What
did people do for--for social activities before electricity and radio
and television?
M. BREWER: Well, they had programs--church programs. They went to
socials and they had parties and--
PITTS: Picnics.
M. BREWER:--picnics and things like that.
DEATON: Um-hm. Could you describe one of the parties for me? What
usually took place at--
M. BREWER: And I'll tell you another thing that I enjoyed was we had
molasses stir-offs.
DEATON: Um-hm.
M. BREWER: You know, they don't do that anymore. Clyde's father had a
molasses--what do you call it, Clyde, a machine or something?
C. BREWER: No, that's what--they call 'em a cane mill.
00:22:00
M. BREWER: Cane mill, and he had a cane mill. It's out in Laurel
County somewhere now. And we went to--I don't remember whether
it's--I believe it was just before we married, we went to a stir-off--a
molasses stir-off and we had a lot of fun. It was just unusual, you
know, to have molasses stir-offs after that much 'cause people quit
raising cane and the mills all went out of the county. But that was
one thing they did to--molasses stir-off. Everybody had fun and--
C. BREWER: Off the record, they--they--they quit raising cane of that
kind and started raising cane of another kind. (laughter) That's--
that's ----------(??).
M. BREWER: Yeah. Yeah, that's right, too.
DEATON: Well, could you describe one of the parties for me? What usually
took place?
M. BREWER: Now, I didn't--didn't really go to many of the parties here
because I was in school most of the time, and most of the time after
I came here I was working and I didn't have an opportunity to attend
the parties. Clyde may--Clyde might be able to tell you what they did
00:23:00then. They had--
C. BREWER: We had old square dances around ----------(??)--
M. BREWER: Square dances mostly, I think, and--
M. BREWER:------------(??) country. You see 'em have 'em on television
now, little skits of square dancing, you know. But that's--that's when
they'd get out and go to a private home somewhere to have their--maybe
just dance all night if they wanted to, or dance till they all got
tired and quit.
M. BREWER: And we had the old-time fiddling, you know, music--
PITTS: Did you have lots of people fiddling to those dances?
C. BREWER: Yeah. Yeah, there's--
M. BREWER: Clyde used to--
C. BREWER:--they'd come from miles away--
M. BREWER:--used to play till he got--
C. BREWER:--to come to that.
M. BREWER:--his finger cut off. He's got one of his nosing fingers cut
off. He used to play.
PITTS: I think it's a shame not many people are good at fiddling.
anymore, but--
M. BREWER: Yes.
PITTS:--used to there were ----------(??).
M. BREWER: That's right.
C. BREWER: That was--that was quite a get-together, you know. They
just--they don't--they wouldn't get together like they do now. They
didn't fight when you'd get together back then. They just all had
a good time. So it's changed quite a bit now and over the--over the
00:24:00years. ----------(??) that's the community center here, when that
old lady first set up there, why, they'd have parties there for the
young people, you know. They'd go in, just play little simple games,
whatever anybody wanted to play. And--
M. BREWER: That's Miss McCord when she came in here.
C. BREWER:--and you'd have--have about--
DEATON: Um-hm. And when was that? When did they build a community
center over here?
M. BREWER: The church was built in 1938.
C. BREWER: Oh, that's back to the early--early--I guess--I guess she
come in here about the early '20s, or maybe earlier than that, didn't
she, Miss McCord?
M. BREWER: Yeah, I guess she did. I've got a--
C. BREWER: And I don't remember now ----------(??).
M. BREWER:--history on her.
C. BREWER: I guess ----------(??) I'm getting old if I can't remember
back that far. I better not.
DEATON: When--with books and so forth, when was the first store that you
00:25:00remember that began to carry books in Leslie County, that the people
could buy books or magazines, newspapers?
M. BREWER: Well, Mr. Deaton, I guess, is the--who was the first pastor
of the church--wasn't he the first pastor--real ol---full-time pastor?
C. BREWER: I don't know.
M. BREWER: I thought he was. Well, anyway, he was the pastor here and
he had the first bookmobile--
DEATON: Is this the--
M. BREWER:--at this--in the state, I think.
DEATON:--Reverend Denton Deaton?
M. BREWER: Yes. Um-hm. And he--they had--Maggie Thomas, I guess, was
the rider who went out on horseback and carried books into the families
for the families to read. So I guess that was the first books that were
distributed and then didn't they have a high school here, Clyde, once--
C. BREWER: Oh, they had--
M. BREWER:--first?
C. BREWER:--they tried to have a little, but then they'd just have, you
know, maybe seven or eight kids, something like that.
M. BREWER: Taught high school subjects for awhile before they had one
in Hyden.
C. BREWER: That--they had--they had a pretty good--they had a pretty
00:26:00good library up there at one time in the early days there at the
Center, you know. You could go and get you--like you could in Hyden
at the library, you could go check out a book, take--take it back.
It was just like you do at Hyden at the--'course I don't--I don't
know whatever happened with all the books and the stuff just--over the
years. They've just been carried out and wasted, you know.
M. BREWER: We had a weaving center there, too, so the women had a
weaving project. They went in to weave--learn to weave.
DEATON: Um-hm. Well, is Nancy's Nook the first bookstore that you know
of?
M. BREWER: Yes. Yes, it's the first bookstore that's ever been in Hyden
that I know of.
DEATON: So other--other than maybe a few magazines or a couple of
newspapers, that's the first bookstore that's operated?
M. BREWER: As far as I know. There may have been others, but I don't
know of it if there were.
DEATON: And she's been there, what, about four years now?
M. BREWER: I think so. Um-hm. Something like that.
DEATON: Well, how do you feel about the religious convictions of the
people? Do you think most of them are religious or do they attend
churches or what?
00:27:00
M. BREWER: I think so, yes. Um-hm. We don't always approve of their
religion, but (laughing) they did go. Most of 'em I think 'cause--I
would say the majority of the people that live outside of Hyden and
Wooten are either Church of Christ or Church of God members. But
you--you get out here in--in Wooten, you find a lot of Presbyterians
and Baptists. And in Hyden, of course, that's true, too, Presbyterians
and Baptists.
DEATON: We'll talk about the Frontier Nursing Service for a few minutes.
Did you meet and know Mary Breckinridge?
M. BREWER: Oh, yes. Uh-huh. I had tea with her and we talked French
very comfortably together--
[End Tape #1, Side #1]
[Begin Tape #1, Side #2]
M. BREWER:--and enjoyed ourselves very much.
DEATON: Um-hm. What did you usually talk about, do you remember?
M. BREWER: Oh, just ordinary things like anybody else. We'd--everyday
things. And she--she called all the people in and said, "Listen, Mrs.
Brewer speaks French beautifully!" (laughs) And I was invited to stay
for tea, and then I went up with Dr. and Mrs. Beasley. They--they
00:28:00would take me along when they would go up for tea or something. They
became good friends early. Mr. and--Dr. and Mrs. Beasley did.
DEATON: Um-hm. How did she impress you? I mean is there any--
M. BREWER: You mean Mrs. Breckinridge?
DEATON: Um-hm.
M. BREWER: A very beautiful person. She was a very intelligent and--and
very capable person.
DEATON: Um-hm. Did you rec---did you at any time that you talked with
her, discuss religion?
M. BREWER: No. Uh-uh. Never did.
DEATON: Did she--
M. BREWER: I don't even know what she was, do you?
DEATON: Well,--
M. BREWER: What was her faith?
DEATON:--Episcopalian.
M. BREWER: Old Eng---Old English, I guess. Episcopalian, that's what
most of them were, uh-huh.
DEATON: Did she mention her children at any time that you talked?
M. BREWER: No. No, we never did talk about personal things like that,
just, you know, about our lives today or something. It wasn't anything
like that. 'Course I read her book. I enjoyed her book very much.
00:29:00
DEATON: Do you think that the book was a fairly accurate portrayal of--
of the FNS?
M. BREWER: I believe it was at the time, um-hm.
DEATON: Well, the impression that's given in the book and in the
quarterly bulletin is that the people, more or less, flocked to
the Frontier Nursing Service to come and establish clinics. Do you
remember if it was that way or not, or did Mary Breckinridge, more or
less, establish the clinic without really consulting the people?
M. BREWER: Oh, I believe she must have reached out and established
the clinics by realizing the need because she did a lot of visiting,
you know, in the areas and she was quite aware of the needs in the
different areas. And at first they were clinics that are not operating
now, I understand. They had clinics that were quite successful then
and it was a good service to the people who couldn't get in to have it
otherwise--to have the services.
00:30:00
DEATON: Well, is there anything that I haven't asked you about
particularly that you'd like to talk about? A specific event or
anything?
M. BREWER: Well, I can't think of any right off.
DEATON: How do you view the future of--of the Frontier Nursing Service
in Leslie County?
M. BREWER: Well, I guess they're the only ones that's gonna be here.
They'll have to serve the people or they'll lose out because people
are going to go other places if they don't give 'em the service that
they need. You know, we--we mostly go to Harlan because Clyde has
the U.M.W. [United Mine Workers] miners' insurance and they wasn't
honoring that here in Hyden for awhile. I think they do now, but we
started going over there because of that. And we just got started
having our physical check-ups there. And a lot of people from Leslie
County go there to Harlan for their check-ups. And a lot go to Hazard,
too, to the clinic over there. So people do--since they can drive
00:31:00now, they have good roads and transportation, they have their own cars.
They--they have a tendency to reach out and go--they're--they have a
better choice of what they want.
[Interruption in taping]
DEATON: They, to a large extent, produced their own food and everything
else that they needed during their lives. Did you ever make any
homemade soap?
M. BREWER: Yes.
DEATON: How do you make it?
M. BREWER: Well, you put your lye in the water in a pot. It has to
be enamel or iron. And then you add fat meat to that until it stops
eating that up and becomes right thick-like--jelly-like. And I guess
you keep boiling that. My sister-in-law makes it all the time out
here. She hasn't made any lately, but she's--it's been a year, I
00:32:00guess, or more since she made any. But it comes out, then you cut
it into bars and it's--makes good soap to wash clothes with, and some
people like it for their hair and bathing, too. (laughs)
DEATON: Hmm. How much lye do you put in?
M. BREWER: It's--I think it has the directions on the--on the box of
lye that you get. It has the directions to follow on that. But, now,
we--back in olden times, they tell me that when the lye first became
available it was in balls. You remember that, Clyde?
C. BREWER: About the size of a baseball.
M. BREWER: About the size of a baseball. And--
C. BREWER: Lye balls.
M. BREWER:--yeah, they called it lye balls.
C. BREWER: ----------(??) what they called it, lye balls.
M. BREWER: And the first wi---soap they made was--it wouldn't get thick-
-hard. It was a--
C. BREWER: Well, this--
M. BREWER:--soft, jelly-like.
C. BREWER:--is the reason that, if you don't have the right ingr---I
mean your--if you got too much grease for your lye, why it won't make
soap. If you've not got enough lye, why, you know, it's vice versa.
You may have to boil it a second time. The old soap-makers, why, they
00:33:00knew just what of each one to add--to put into it and they come out
with perfect soap every time.
PITTS: ----------(??) people that are--
C. BREWER: Yeah. Uh-huh, of course.
DEATON: Well, were--were the women usually the ones--was the woman
usually the one to make the soap?
C. BREWER: Yeah, they made--they made the soap, they'd have to make it
on a certain moon, now. That was the big moon.
M. BREWER: Oh, yeah, had to be of the moon.
C. BREWER: Yeah. That's right.
DEATON: Well, there's sort of a tradition or belief that you plant by
the moon and you kill hogs by the moon and everything else. Are you
familiar with those?
M. BREWER: We certainly are. (laughter)
DEATON: Run through those for me.
M. BREWER: That--
DEATON: On--on planting the--
M. BREWER:--the last time we killed--oh, it was a huge, big old thing.
I've got pictures somewhere that they--Clyde would hang it up and then
cut the entrails out, you know.
PITTS: A hog.
M. BREWER: So we decided we'd--he decided--well, we all decided, I
guess, together that we wouldn't pay any attention to that moon legend,
we'd just go on and kill the hog. Well, I declare, we--we were sorry
00:34:00for that because that meat just puffed up. You couldn't fry it. That
bacon wasn't fit to eat. And it just puffed up when you put it in the
skillet. Just puffed up like that. And we didn't believe it. But
that made a believer out of us, though. (laughs)
DEATON: What's--what's the tradition on the right time to kill a hog?
M. BREWER: When is it, Clyde? When you kill a hog--
C. BREWER: I don't know now. It's been too long.
DEATON: Is it on the full of a moon or--
C. BREWER: Well, there's--I--I just don't remember now. Your planting
and things like that, planting your potatoes. Say, take potatoes.
You can plant them on what's called a "new moon", first--about the
first--up to the first quarter, and they'll grow very close to the top,
and some of 'em will be on--sunburned. They're all sticking out of the
ground. And you plant them on the dark nights, and they'll apt to be
so deep you can't dig 'em out. Right on down in the ground.
DEATON: Now when are the dark nights of the moon? What--or what are the
00:35:00dark nights?
C. BREWER: Well, that's--that's--there's a little place in there from
the time it's full--I mean, up just before it news, you know, before
the new moon, is what they called the "dark nights".
PITTS: When there's no moon?
C. BREWER: I've got a--I've got a calendar here some company puts out
that's got all this--
M. BREWER: And he goes by that, too,--
C. BREWER:--time element.
M. BREWER:--when he plants. That's why he has such a good garden. I
think.
DEATON: Well, that's with potatoes. What--what about, say, beans? Is
there a good time to plant beans?
C. BREWER: Well, your beans--there's times. I don't know just--I don't
have--know the sign right out. But there's a time that if you plant
'em and the vines will go everywhere, and on another moon, why, they
won't--people that actually follow it, you know, right now, they--they
just--they swear by it and plant by it and harvest by it.
PITTS: Sounds like they have a good reason to, too.
C. BREWER: On the--the--say, the apples there now. You pick them--you
00:36:00go out there and pick 'em. You pick 'em on a--on a new moon and in
handling you bruise 'em. Well, that bruised place will rot maybe
the whole apple. Pick it on the old of the moon, that bruised place
will dry up, just that bit. Just--it won't rot. So there's--there's
(laughs) something ----------(??) that helps keep--
PITTS: There's something to it.
DEATON: Well, you were talking about frying the bacon in the hog that
you killed at the wrong time. What does it do? If you kill it at the
right time, does the bacon lay frat---
M. BREWER: Yes.
DEATON:--lay flat--
M. BREWER: Yes.
DEATON:--in the skillet?
M. BREWER: Uh-huh.
DEATON: Is that--and it doesn't wrinkle, is--
M. BREWER: Uh-uh.
DEATON:--that what you're talking about?
M. BREWER: No, it'll just fry like ordinary bacon you buy at the store.
But that one sure didn't. It just puffed. Didn't matter how thin you
cut it, it would puff up.
C. BREWER: The old--the old--the old--the old people now, they wouldn't
have killed it. They just had to be certain, you know. They'd say,
"Well, if you kill it on this moon, you can put it in the skillet
and it would turn up on both ends. It'd roll up." I don't know which
00:37:00is which. I don't remember the moons. But they--they were very
particular about their--their meat and their--of course the planting
of the their corn. There were certain days they wouldn't plant corn
because they'd say it wouldn't have an ear on it.
M. BREWER: They call 'em "baring days", which was bearing, of course.
But they--
C. BREWER: ----------(??).
M. BREWER:--called it "baring days".
PITTS: Yeah. That was when you shouldn't plant?
C. BREWER: And I've--I've seen it where there's--they wouldn't be just a
shoot run right up beside the stalk and no ear at all. And lots of 'em.
I mean they're just all through the field. So there must be something
to it. There must be something there you can plot it out good.
DEATON: Do you have any idea where those beliefs--how those beliefs
originated from?
C. BREWER: I--well, I just--I guess more or less--
M. BREWER: Experience, would you say?
C. BREWER: Experi---the people would experiment with it. They just--
00:38:00
M. BREWER: Experiment.
C. BREWER:--found out that--on this calendar here it says if you don't-
-if you don't have any faith in that, take your same batch of seeds
here and plant some of it on one moon and plant the rest of it on a
different moon, and then look at your harvest to--
DEATON: Um-hm.
C. BREWER:--just--just go and do it yourself instead of taking their
word for it, by trying. I haven't done it but I think there's a whole
lot there.
M. BREWER: Well, you know the Bible says that the moon and the stars
and--well, the moon and sun were put in the sky for signs and for
seasons. So if God put 'em for that, I guess they work.
PITTS: For even making soap, then.
M. BREWER: Um-hm. Making soap, yeah. Make--it has to be made in the
right moon, too, you know, when the--I--I guess the pull of the moon
00:39:00that makes the tides has something to do with it. I don't know.
PITTS: Seems like it ----------(??).
M. BREWER: Must be. Uh-huh.
DEATON: Well, make the soap, killing animals, and raising the garden,
what other things do you do by the sign of the moon?
C. BREWER: Well, old people, they just done it all. They'd set a hen on
a certain--if they was gonna set a hen to raise eggs, you know, they'd
set 'em on a certain moon. At certain time, the eggs--they'd say the
eggs hatch better. But all such things I have--I never did.
M. BREWER: Well, there's a certain time when you can kill trees. Now
what's that called, Clyde?
C. BREWER: Kill what?
M. BREWER: Trees. If you want to kill trees.
C. BREWER: That's what they call--
M. BREWER: Ember.
C. BREWER:--"ember days".
M. BREWER: "Ember days".
C. BREWER: They come about--they come about three or four times a
year, be marked on the calendar, saying--say it'd be a--let's use this
for a day now. Say it'd be the tenth, twelfth and thirteenth. It'd
00:40:00skip a day in there on how they would come. There won't be three
days--there'd be three days of it, but there'll be one day, then you'd
skip one, then it'd be the next two. You can find 'em in the almanac
and usually the calendars that's marked, it's got 'em marked on that.
They--they claim now that you can just go out there and take an axe
to a tree on that day and it'll die. I don't know, I never did try.
I know I don't believe it's that--and the other feller said if they
have ground where they want to clean it up, got bushes and things on
it, just go and hack 'em off about this high, you know. Just hack 'em
off and go back the next--by next year, why, they're all just rotted
off the ground, the stumps are. I never tried it. I've--I've--I've
planned to, but I always let 'em get by before I check and see what
(laughing) day it is. Then it's too late. But--
00:41:00
DEATON: Well, during your work, have you run across any traditions or
anything that are evident in certain parts of Europe or maybe England
or Scotland that are also evident here?
M. BREWER: Well, they--they brought the--for instance, the vinegar
making. They brought that mother vinegar with 'em when they came here.
They didn't find it here. It was something that--that grew like a
plant, and they evidently brought that right along from their foreign
countries with 'em. And they had--I don't know how they found that
beer corn, do you, Clyde?
C. BREWER: I never did know where they ever found it and when they lost
it.
M. BREWER: But they--they found that sometime. It's--they go around
where they ginning corn or--I mean ginning molasses cane for molasses.
And these little kernels or something would be found in the juice pans
before they cooked the molasses and they called that "beer corn". They
00:42:00would take it and put it in a--they'd just use plain water, do they,
Clyde, or did they use the juice?
C. BREWER: I think it's just water and it'll grow. Just keeping it--
looked like--
M. BREWER: Just like the mother vinegar, it's grows.
C. BREWER:--it looked more like grain, is the best I remember 'em. And
it looked about sort of like hominy, you know, or hash--been cooked
corn. And it just keeps growing and your jar gets full after awhile,
you got to take it out.
M. BREWER: And they would share that with families, you know, when
they'd--
C. BREWER: But I don't know--
DEATON: And what did they use that for?
C. BREWER: It was just--
M. BREWER: Drink. It made a drink.
C. BREWER:--they'd drink it.
M. BREWER: Like instead of drinking pop and Coke and stuff that you have
now--
C. BREWER: Pop and Coca-Cola,--
M. BREWER:--they used it as a drink.
C. BREWER:--stuff like that.
M. BREWER: It really wasn't beer, they said.
C. BREWER: Everybody--
M. BREWER: It tasted--
C. BREWER:--I guess when I was a kid, I rem---remember it now, it had--
M. BREWER: See, it wasn't a beer at all.
C. BREWER: Called it "beer corn".
M. BREWER: But they called it "beer corn".
DEATON: Hmm. And the kernel came out of--
C. BREWER: It just--I don't know how it formed. They'd just keep--you'd
just put a little handful in a jar, and the first thing you know your
jar would get full. It gets--
PITTS: It would swell up with the moisture.
C. BREWER:--it'd just grow out of gas, it would.
M. BREWER: Grow other kernels, I guess, on it sort of.
00:43:00
DEATON: And--and--
M. BREWER: Multiply.
DEATON:--that--that would form with the sugar cane in the sugar?
C. BREWER: I don't know how they got it to start or whatever happened.
M. BREWER: Well, that's where they said they got it. That's where they
told me they got out--
C. BREWER: ----------(??) haven't seen any--
M. BREWER:--where they were ginning.
C. BREWER:--of it since I was a kid.
M. BREWER: Cane.
PITTS: And how did it taste?
C. BREWER: I--well, I--I can't tell you 'cause it's been so long.
M. BREWER: I tried to find some. They told me a woman in Hyden had some,
but I called her and she didn't have any, and I couldn't find any.
DEATON: But as far as you know,--
C. BREWER: I'll be glad to make--
DEATON:--where do you think most of the people--
C. BREWER:------------(??)--
DEATON:--in this area, where are their origins, their countries of
origin?
C. BREWER:------------(??) something like that I'd keep 'em here.
M. BREWER: Most of 'em came from England. Some came from Ireland. A
few came from Germany, not too many.
PITTS: Any from Scotland?
M. BREWER: Yes, Scotland. The Mackintoshes came from Scotland. And the
Napiers, especially, were Scotch.
00:44:00
PITTS: Folks around here call a paper bag a "poke"?
M. BREWER: Poke, yeah. A poke, yeah.
PITTS: You ever heard the word haycock for a haystack?
[End of Interview]
