Interview with Al Rosen, May 15, 1979

 MARSHALL: Mr. Rosen, can you tell me how you got into baseball?

ROSEN: Well, like most youngsters, you have a dream about being a major league baseball player and you have to start someplace. In the days when I began --you could be scouted by someone or someone could see you play in high school or college and you just go out and play. Or else you could join a team on your own. I was in the --at one time, rather, I was working out with the Boston Red Sox farm club at Danville, Virginia. The manager told me to go on home and get a lunch pail because I'd never be a ballplayer. I was quite upset, unhappy. But there'd been a bird dog scout who had seen me work out with the club. And it just so happened that a friend of his was running a team in Thomasville, North Carolina in the North Carolina State League, and their third baseman had broken his leg sliding into home a couple nights before, and they were lookin' for someone. So I got on a bus, and went down to Thomasville, North Carolina, where I broke in by signing a contract for ninety dollars a month.

MARSHALL: What year was that?

ROSEN: That was in 1942. I just completed my first year at the University of Florida. But felt that I was gonna have to go into service and I wanted to play professional baseball, at least get a beginning.

MARSHALL: So you did go, then go into the service?

ROSEN: I was in the Navy, yes.

MARSHALL: In the Navy. Did you play with any of the teams that played--

ROSEN: No, there was a league of service--I played a little bit. When I was at Camp Shelton, Virginia. But I was only there for a short period of time. And then went out, went on about my training, which eventually took me overseas and didn't get a chance to play during my service years.

MARSHALL: And when you came out of the service, what then?

ROSEN: In 1946, I joined the--it was the Cleveland Indian farm club in Pittsfield, Massachusetts. Class C, Canadian-American League. And I played there the entire summer.

MARSHALL: What sort of conditions existed in 1946. I mean, this is immediately post-war year, and--

ROSEN: Well, the--everybody was--all the teams were flooded with, with former baseball players coming back. Aspiring new players. It was--it was a day that baseball flourished on all levels. And at that time, contrary to the way it is today, there were AAA, AA, A leagues. Then B, C, and D leagues.

MARSHALL: What were your thoughts as a minor leaguer in Class C league, as far as makin' it to the big leagues at that time, or at least maybe later on? What were your aspirations?

ROSEN: Well, of course the major leagues. I was delighted to be home. Delighted to be playin' in such a lovely town as Pittsfield, Mass [Massachusetts], and the fact that I had a good year and that the team had a good year made it a memorable summer for me.

MARSHALL: You then moved up to a higher classification?

ROSEN: Yes, my contract was purchased by Oklahoma City, which--AA team in 00:03:00the Texas league. And that too, was a working agreement with the Cleveland Indians, so I was coming up through the Cleveland chain.

MARSHALL: Okay. That was in 1947.

ROSEN: `47. At the end of the `47 season there, I joined the parent club, the Cleveland Indians. As a matter of fact, right here in New York was my first appearance at bat, against lefty Joe Page of the Yankees. I stayed with the club about three weeks, until their season was over, just to give me a taste of what major league life was really about.

MARSHALL: Did you --know Commissioner Chandler at all, or did you seek Mr. Chandler while he was commissioner?

ROSEN: Oh, yes. I knew him. Played golf with him and became friends with him. Which we are to this day.

MARSHALL: When was this, that you first --met him?

ROSEN: I probably --if my memory serves me, we played in a golf tournament together at--it was--in those days, it was a professional baseball players tournament. It was held at the Miami Springs Country Club in Miami, Florida. 00:04:00And the commissioner came down. And I was fortunate enough to be in a foursome with him.

MARSHALL: Did he ever come to any of the minor league cities, towns that you were playing at?

ROSEN: Not to my recollection, no.

MARSHALL: Okay. Again, trying to think as a minor leaguer, instead of a major leaguer when you came up just a few years later --was there any general impression of the commissioner for you as a ballplayer or possibly some of your teammates?

ROSEN: I remember him most for his warmth and congeniality. His laughter. Happy was an appropriate name for him. He was a great story teller. Very friendly. Tremendously friendly man.

MARSHALL: Did you have--the idea, or at least the feeling that he was commissioner of baseball, not just of the major leagues?

ROSEN: Well, it was very difficult, it's very difficult at this time to answer that. You knew that here was a man who was commissioner of baseball. And his purview was all of baseball. And his interest was not only in the minor 00:05:00league players, but also in the major league players because again, that was his responsibility. And the very fact that he would come to a golf tournament where not only he'd meet major league players, but minor league players was indicative of his, his warmth and his love of what he was doing.

MARSHALL: Okay--Again, from--I guess it was in the `48 season, or `49 season that you played for Kansas City.

ROSEN: In 1948, I went to spring training with Cleveland. Cleveland was in need of pitching. And they worked out a deal with the New York Yankees for a right-handed pitcher by the name of Charlie Winsloff. Part of the payment for the deal was that I was gonna spend the season at the New York Yankee Kansas City Blues farm club. That was in the American Association AAA Ball. At that time --I think that the Yankees had an interest in me and wanted to see me play for a Yankee team. But, again, I was fortunate to have a good year, and the 00:06:00Cleveland Indians recalled me. Incidentally, they recalled me early because in August, late August of that year, I sustained a knee injury and since the season was practically over in the American Association, Cleveland recalled me to come up and I spent about --my recollection again is a little hazy --maybe five or six weeks, and I was eligible to play in the World Series that year.

MARSHALL: --So in other words --have you ever aspired to play for the Yankees? Was that --

ROSEN: No. At that time, there was great pride in the uniform that one wore. And since I'd come up through the Cleveland Indian chain, I felt that that's where I wanted to be. All my friends were there. And --I was very happy because at that time, those were golden years in Cleveland baseball. Cleveland had great teams in those years. And the rivalry with the New York Yankees is 00:07:00very similar to the rivalry now that they have with the Red Sox. It was that kind of thing. So I was delighted to be where I was.

MARSHALL: While you were in the minors, did you play with or against any black ballplayers?

ROSEN: Yes, as a matter of fact, in 1946, there were some black players who played for Quebec City --no, excuse me, Three Rivers, which was also Canadian. They were there because it was a Brooklyn Dodger farm system. I wish I could recall the names of some of those players. I, I really can't.

MARSHALL: Again, I was thinking, in `47, I think --well it may have been `46, that Newcom and Campanella were at Nashua. That was in New Hampshire. But I doubt that was the same period.

ROSEN: No. I would have remembered Campanella.

MARSHALL: Right--Again, did you play with any ballplayers on your own team? Through your minor league career?

ROSEN: Black players?

MARSHALL: Umhmm.

ROSEN: No, not until--I think the 1949 season. I spent half the year with San Diego because the Cleveland ball club wanted to recall Luke Easter, who had been playin' out there, and they sent Allie Clark and me to finish out the season. That took place on July third of that year. Minnie Minoso was on that ball club. Prior to that, in spring training, there were black ballplayers. And I don't recall playing with any black ballplayers in 1947. I don't believe on our `48 team at Kansas City.

MARSHALL: Okay. I'll probably get back into that topic a little later on. What kind of a salary did you make while you were in the minors?

ROSEN: I signed for ninety dollars a month. With Thomasville. My next season, I made a hundred and seventy-five dollars a month. My year at Oklahoma City, I made four hundred dollars a month. And then I got a major league 00:09:00minimum salary at that time. From then on.

MARSHALL: Okay. As you mentioned, you had several trials with the Indians. Was the major reason--and you were having great years in the minors at this time. Was the major reason you didn't make the ball club because they had Ken Keltner?

ROSEN: That's exactly the reason. Ken was a fine ballplayer. And did everything well. And still could play. And, in those days, they --the club used their three options, and the fact that there were sixteen teams as opposed to twenty-six teams today, you found a lot of very fine talent down at the minor league, in the minor league system. Just waiting for the opportunity to come up.

MARSHALL: Did you find this rather frustrating?

ROSEN: I did, particularly in the 1949 season. I --because in 1948, Kenny had his great year. The year that that they won the World, that Cleveland won the world championship. But in `49, I was frustrated because Kenny --it was obvious that he was having difficulty with his legs and couldn't do the things 00:10:00that he had done the year prior --but there was a reluctance to take him out of the lineup.

MARSHALL: Tell me --a little bit about your recollections of spring training in 1950. If you can recall. I know it's difficult to recall a particular spring training, but you might be able--

ROSEN: Well, I--that was one of the worst spring trainings I've ever put in. I was on my third option, and quite concerned about my future in baseball. Because it didn't seem to me --there was Keltner back at third base. And it didn't seem to me that I was going to get much of a chance to play, and I had some misgivings and some doubts as to whether or not I would be shuttled off to the minor leagues for a career in oblivion, or whether some other team would pick me up via the waiver route. I was given some solace, because I ran into Frank Lane, on a plane. At that time he was with the White Sox. And we were on a plane going --as a matter of fact, my plane from Miami stopped in Tampa, and he got on and we sat together and --before he got out in Dallas. And he told me 00:11:00at that time that I --nobody --that I would never go back to the minor leagues as long as he had an opportunity to pick me up. But even that didn't stick in my mind during the frustration of that spring training, because I only went to bat two times.

MARSHALL: Two?

ROSEN: Two times, until, in Wichita. We were playing the Giants, an exhibition game, and Kenny unfortunate --it's a terrible thing to see a man's career kinda end like that, but Kenny was having a great deal of trouble and actually fell down on the field on two ground balls. The decision was made right then and there that he was gonna be released and I was told that night that I was gonna be the third baseman. We only had maybe three more exhibition games, three or four more exhibition games before the season started. The next day I played against the Giants and I, the first time up I doubled. Next time I hit a homerun. Then we, they took me out after the fifth inning and then we went to Kansas City to play an exhibition game and I hit another homerun, so at least I 00:12:00was --I was sort of gaining my confidence. And history will show that in the opening game of the 1950 season, I hit a homerun in the bottom of the eighth to tie up the ballgame.

MARSHALL: Again, you mentioned --I'm really surprised you only had 2 at-bats. You were training where? Tucson?

ROSEN: In Tucson. Well, the, it was just --That was the way it was at that time.

MARSHALL: Was that sort of the management style of Lou Boudreau? Was that what he --

ROSEN: Well, I prefer not getting into that kind of --my own personal feelings about those things are not necessary here, I don't think.

MARSHALL: Okay. Great. Let me get a little bit into the 1950 season, right around the All-Star break. On June 30th, and again you're not probably gonna remember this specifically --1950, Cleveland beat Detroit 11-3. And you homered twice in that game. I don't know if you remember that or not. Larry Doby made a really sensational catch in the game and hung himself over on a fence.

ROSEN: I remember that. I don't remember the homeruns, but I remember that --that was--where the bullpens were, and Larry went into left center, deep left center, and actually threw himself over the fence. He landed on top of the, the bullpen canopy.

MARSHALL: Right.

ROSEN: And caught a ball going over the fence. It was one of the greatest plays I've ever seen.

MARSHALL: --And then later in the game --Luke Easter I think walloped a big homer off of Dizzy Trout, and Trout brushed back Doby the next time he was up at the plate and there was an altercation. What I'm really getting at, is I'd like to know a little bit about Larry Doby, and your friendship possibly with him, and what kind of a player you, you felt he was.

ROSEN: Larry was a fine player, but I don't think he ever reached his potential. I think he should have been one of the great players of all time. Unfortunately, Larry was given to moods. The ups and downs. The highs and the lows. And I think that had a great deal to do with, with the fact that he was 00:14:00black, that he had been a --a great athlete playing in the north, and all of a sudden he had to go into the Negro American Baseball without getting a chance to play, and now he finally got into baseball in 1948. Bill Veeck brought him there. He was the first, as you know, the first Negro in the American League. And Larry found a great deal of the same things that Jackie Robinson found. From the bantering and the --the things that came from the bench and the other players. And Larry took it a great deal to heart. I believe that scarred him. I really believe that, that something lived with him. But Larry was a fine ball --he could do everything. He could run, he could throw, he could catch, and he had tremendous power. He was a good contact hitter. And --so that my, my feelings about Larry is that he's a man who never reached his potential even though, when you look back through the record, you see a very fine record.

MARSHALL: He seems to have been sort of eclipsed by Jackie Robinson also.

ROSEN: Well, Jackie was first. And Jackie was super-great, in every respect. Larry was the first in the American League. Larry may have been a little more sensitive. His nature may have been. He emotionally may have been a little more --instable [unstable]. I don't think that's the correct word, but --

MARSHALL: Unstable then.

ROSEN: [chuckle] Unstable. I was tryin' to think of that. I couldn't come up with it. A little more --but he was. He was an emotional type fella. And Jackie was a very hard, tough --man who had a great deal of inner strength. And so there's a difference. And --but that was how I, how I saw Larry Doby.

MARSHALL: Who did, did Larry associate with most? I mean, during the early years?

ROSEN: Well in those years, the blacks stayed with the blacks, and the whites stayed with the whites. 'Though I know that on occasion Larry and I would have dinner together. That, that whole barrier began to break down after 00:16:00awhile because even then when I played going through the south, the blacks had to live in black neighborhoods and couldn't live in the white hotels. Couldn't ride in the white taxi cabs. It was --horrible. I --some of the experiences that--and I don't remember them, and I really don't want to get into them--but it, it's awfully difficult to see your teammates leave to go some other place to live. And there's not really that much you can do about it, at that time. There wasn't much we could do. But I think those were the things that scarred Larry Doby. And those are the things that gave Jackie Robinson greater resolve. But as I say, if you look up Larry Doby's record, you see the record of a very fine ballplayer.

MARSHALL: Yes it is. The late Luke Easter also came up in 1950.

ROSEN: Tremendous man. Came up in `49, as a matter of fact, because that's when I went out to the West Coast. A tremendous man. If Larry Doby had had Luke Easter's disposition, I don't know what records Larry would have set. Luke 00:17:00was, again, friendly, outgoing, confident --not given to moods. A man who was always ready to play. I've seen him sit on the dressing room table and get his knees drained, wrapped up and go out and play a ballgame. Because when he came to the big leagues, he was older. And again, that was --unfair, unjust. But those were our times. But Luke took it all in stride and probably hit the ball further than anybody I've ever seen hit a baseball.

MARSHALL: By the time when he came up, he was --really had played a long time.

ROSEN: Yes.

MARSHALL: And so he was --really only had a few good years left. Is that --?

ROSEN: That's correct.

MARSHALL: Let me go back to the 1950 season again. On July 1st, which is very close to the other game I mentioned --you beat Detroit 7-4, and hit two more 00:18:00homeruns. Then the second of July, you hit an inside-the-park homerun. Do you remember that one?

ROSEN: I remember that well. It was off Art Houtteman. I hit the ball into r- --I don't remember the other homeruns, but something like this because I wasn't noted for my speed. And there weren't many inside-the-park homeruns hit in the Cleveland Ball Park because of the configuration. But I hit a ball that was a line drive, and it looked like it was going over the fence, and both outfielders converged, but the ball hit the top of a p- --they had poles out there and just about, oh, three inches on top where they --and it didn't get covered, it was just metal. And the ball hit that and caromed all the way back to the right field corner. And bounced, you know--hit hard enough. And so I made it home without too much trouble because both outfielders were goin' for the ball, and there was no way for them to catch it because by the time that the ball got to where it was going, I was on my way to second base, and with blinding speed I slid home [chuckles].

MARSHALL: I imagine you took a lot of kidding from your teammates on that one [chuckle].

ROSEN: I'll take 'em any way I can get 'em.

MARSHALL: Where, where did you get your power? I mean, you're not --you know, you do have a good build, but you're not a huge player.

ROSEN: Not by today's standards. But I think in those days, I was --I'm 5'10-1/2" and I played at around, anywhere from a 178 to a 183-84 lbs and --but --I've often thought about that. I've often felt that --at least I had tremendous arm strength and hand and wrist strength and we --when we think about hitters today, we always --or baseball players, we always, you can identify baseball player by looking from his elbow down. You'll see very strong forearms, wrists, and hands. I also had --well I don't know, I just could never answer the question specifically. But in the minor leagues, I wasn't a noted power hitter. I, I hit the ball to all fields, and while I hit homeruns in the minor leagues, I didn't, I never, I didn't lead any league in homeruns.

MARSHALL: I guess the highest was the mid-20's a couple of times --

ROSEN: I had twenty-five a couple times, I think. Once at Oklahoma City and again at Kansas City the next year. Kansas City was --when you hit twenty-five homeruns in that league, 'cause the ballpark, the home ballpark at that time was a tremendous ballpark and they had a huge score board in left center field, which was even higher than the fence. But I had somehow --I didn't hit any tape measure jobs [chuckles].

MARSHALL: Let me see if you can recall one more game. With the Tigers that season. You complained vehemently to Ed Hurley. Umpire Ed Hurley about a ground rule double that George Kell hit, and apparently you thought he was all wet literally, and it looked as if the umpire had thrown you out of the game. But he must not have. And the umpire, I don't mean the umpire, but the manager of the Tigers was Red Rolfe. And he came up to find out why you hadn't been thrown outta the game, and he ended up getting thrown outta the game. Do you remember this?

ROSEN: I really don't. I don't remember that.

MARSHALL: Okay.

ROSEN: I didn't get thrown outta very many games in my career. Even though I was --

MARSHALL: Well this was --

ROSEN: --rather tempestuous, rather tempestuous at times.

MARSHALL: [chuckle] Let me, what I'd like to do is, if you'll bear with me, is to go through some of the players that you played with in 1950 and just get you to mention a few things about them. We've already talked, of course, about Luke Easter and Larry Doby. We won't go over them, but --some of the other players --and the reason I'm doing this is to get sort of a feel of the ball club and the type of people that played during the era. Of course, Boudreau was the manager and we won't go too much further into that, but you had --

ROSEN: Well, I'll just tell you that from a rookie standpoint, Boudreau was a manager that went with veteran ballplayers.

MARSHALL: Okay.

ROSEN: And didn't particularly care to use --rookies. And that's his prerogative. After all, the manager's job is always on the line, so he has a right, he should have the right to select the players he wants to play.

MARSHALL: You played next to him.

ROSEN: Yes.

MARSHALL: Quite a bit until I guess it was Ray Boone --

ROSEN: Ray Boone took over for him in `51.

MARSHALL: `51. Okay. And again, I think --I imagine he was really slowing down as a player at that time.

ROSEN: Yes. Umhmm.

MARSHALL: Well, let's talk a little bit about Ray Boone. You, you could have fielded at that time, and did at times in an all-rookie infield, I think.

ROSEN: Well, Boonie was my, you know --we had played together in `47, at Oklahoma City. And I had, Boonie and I were roommates. A very fine player. Miscast as a shortstop. He should have been the third baseman, and they should have moved me to first base. Early in our careers. They didn't elect to do that, and it finally resolved itself when Boonie was traded over to Detroit where he became a very fine third baseman and as a matter of fact, led the league one year, I think, in RBI's or something like that. But he was --he became a good hitter over there.

MARSHALL: And Bobby Avila also came up.

ROSEN: Well, Beto was the star of the Mexican Leagues and came up to us and 00:23:00showed tremendous savvy about baseball. Good hitter. Very capable hitter.

MARSHALL: Speaking about the Mexican Leagues, did you ever have an opportunity or an offer to play?

ROSEN: I had numerous opportunities to play down south, but elected to go back to college each year instead.

MARSHALL: This was in, at Florida?

ROSEN: I went, yes I went to the University of Florida one year, then went to the University of Miami. From the University of Miami, I went into V-12 Program after I came back from service. I went back, took two semesters during the off-season, and graduated from the University of Miami.

MARSHALL: You also had Dale Mitchell.

ROSEN: Dale Mitchell was --an adequate outfielder. Couldn't throw well. Good hitter. Had more power than he wanted to realize, and became a slap, what we consider a slap hitter. His wife made the best spareribs I ever ate in my life [chuckles].

MARSHALL: Thurman Tucker.

ROSEN: Gee, I just thought of him the other day. I don't know what Thurman is doing now. He reminded me of Joe E. Brown. He could really fly. He could get the ball. He looked just like Joe E. Brown. He was best known to me as a man when cars were tough to get, he had contacts in Detroit, so he used to go over and buy cars a little bit over list and then he'd ship them down to Texas someplace and sell 'em and they'd make some money [chuckles]. I remember Thurman for that.

MARSHALL: You had a, a catcher also, named Ray Murray.

ROSEN: Oh, Ray Murray and I played together also. Again, that was in --he's a sheriff now in Ft. Worth, I think. But we played in Oklahoma City together. Murray was one of the funniest men I ever met. He was really Joe Country. Great guy. Great sense of humor. Lovely wife. And we used to go over there all the time during catfish season, and she used to make catfish and hush puppies. Can you imagine eating catfish and hush puppies before a ballgame?

MARSHALL: No. [laughter]

ROSEN: We did.

MARSHALL: Sounds like dead weight. [laughter]

ROSEN: Shows you how young we were.

MARSHALL: Then, of course, you have Jim Hegan, who's with this ball club.

ROSEN: Well, Jim Hegan's superman. He's always been a --a good friend of mine. And --I remember Jim best for his agility back of the bat. He was finest receiver I've ever seen. The fine, one of the finest throwers I've ever seen. He could do everything well. He just couldn't hit. If Jim Hegan had been able to hit .280, .285, he'd a been in the Hall of Fame.

MARSHALL: How about Joe Gordon?

ROSEN: Smokey? I remember him, Smokey, best for not only his agility on the field because there's no doubt that he was --he could made anybody's All-Star second baseman --he had more batting stances and used more different bats than any man I've ever seen in my career. He, he was always experimenting. But Dorothy and Joe were good, good friends. Very good friends.

MARSHALL: How about Bob Kennedy?

ROSEN: Well, Bob you know is over in Chicago now, running that ball club. He made one of the great throws of all time. Playing in Cleveland one night. Gil Coan was on third base and it was the winning run. And he backed up against the right field fence to catch a fly ball. Looked like the game was over. And he threw a bullet. He could throw the --he really had a great arm. I remember playing catch with him one time before the ballgame. We always warmed up together, and because he always liked to throw hard to get his arm loose, I would catch the ball in the webbing of my glove. And one time, I had the ball, the webbing, I mean the glove and the webbing broke and the ball hit me in the nose and broke my nose.

MARSHALL: Oh no. [chuckle]

ROSEN: I have fond memories of Bob. He also could hit a golf ball as far as anybody I ever saw.

MARSHALL: Let me just go briefly through some of the people on the pitching staff and I'll move on. You had the beginnings of, and actually did have a great staff in `50.

ROSEN: Oh, yeah. Sure.

MARSHALL: One that went through --you know, actually won the pennant for you in `54. With a little help elsewhere obviously. But you had Mike Garcia.

ROSEN: Well, I played with Mike in the minor leagues. Mike was one of the 00:27:00--was--peculiar pitcher. He threw the ball, he threw a very heavy ball. And he got beat by more flukes and broken bat base hits than I've ever seen anybody. He couldn't fill his position very well, but he was one of the tough, toughest competitors I've even seen on the mound. And he was, he was a great pitcher in those years.

MARSHALL: Of course, you had Bob Feller.

ROSEN: Well, Bob Feller--his record speaks for itself. There was only one Rapid Robert. The only man I know of who could lie down before he was gonna pitch and go to sleep on the trainer's table. And they had to wake him out so he could go out and warm up.

MARSHALL: And Bob Lemon.

ROSEN: Well, I don't know that I need to say much more about Lem. The record speaks for itself. We've been very, very close. There was never a better pitcher to walk out on the mound. A more competitive pitcher. He could field his position. He was a good hitter. And he was a guy that would never get beat by giving in to a hitter.

MARSHALL: And then of course you had Early Wynn in `50 come up from Washington.

ROSEN: Right. Well, Early went on to win three hundred games and nobody should ever deny that that's quite a feat. There have only been a few people do it. Early was a tough, tough guy out on the mound. Best remember the fact he'd get two strikes on a hitter as quick as anybody I ever saw, and then go to three and two on everybody. He wouldn't give his own mother a good pitch to hit.

MARSHALL: You also had Steve Gromek.

ROSEN: Steve was a one-pitch pitcher. But when he got it over, he was good. He had a rising fastball. And he was quick. We all loved to play behind Steve because you know the game was gonna be over and you weren't gonna be out there very long. When he and Freddie Hutchinson used to team up, and occasionally that's the way the rotation would be, when Freddie was pitching at Detroit, the games would be an hour and twenty minutes. Hour and thirty minutes. But neither one of 'em, the catchers didn't put down signs. You know. Steve only had one pitch, so he threw it. And Freddie, while he had guile and savvy, he --and a 00:29:00lot of different pitches, none of 'em were enough to fool the catcher.

MARSHALL: [chuckle] You also had Gene Bearden.

ROSEN: Gene was one of those phenoms that comes along every now and then just like somebody out of the hills of the Ozark Mountains. And that's where he is now. Running a motel back in Arkansas. But he had, the year that he had was an unbelievable year. Finally they, the hitters got to the point where they wouldn't chase the low knuckle ball, and he started to come up with it and tried to throw a slider and he just didn't last very long. But he did have his time.

MARSHALL: And you also had Sam Zoldak.

ROSEN: Poor Sam, I just saw a picture of Sam yesterday. And Sam unfortunately is, is gone. Sam was a sinker, slider ball pitcher who was a spot pitcher for the, the Indians, and everytime he went in, he did a great job. Sad Sam. He had the eyes of --well his eyes would remind you somewhat of a 00:30:00bloodhound's eyes. Great big, droopy lookin' eyes. But he was a terrific guy.

MARSHALL: Let me move on --Mel Harter, the Indians' pitching coach, I believe he was the coach --

ROSEN: Yeah, sure.

MARSHALL: --in 1950 --was one of the American League's earliest player representatives. And --how would you characterize him? As a --

ROSEN: Oh, Mel was a very savvy guy. Very well liked by everybody. Nobody wanted --when he used to throw batting practice, no one wanted to hit against him, because he had that good sinkin' fastball. Even at that age. And --but all the pitchers that pitched for, for the Cleveland ball club at that time swear, would swear by Mel. Matter of fact, Mel Harter taught Early Wynn how to throw a curve, 'cause when Early was with Washington, he was strictly a fastball pitcher. And when he came over to us, he --with the help of Mel, he became one 00:31:00of the greats. And he helped Lem as you know, and some of the other fellas. But a great pitching coach.

MARSHALL: Was he still involved or interested in, in players' rights and the pension plan and this type of thing? Did you ever talk to him about that?

ROSEN: No, because that didn't really come about until after the war. 1947, I think. It was Ralph Kiner and Allie Reynolds and Bob Feller. And people like that. The fellas that went before, they just never participated in anything.

MARSHALL: Again, you were up with the Indians a couple of times, and were in the organization through most of the latter part of the 40's. Tell me a little bit about your dealings with Bill Veeck.

ROSEN: Bill was great. When I joined the, the ball club from Oklahoma City, Bill Veeck called down there and asked the owner of the team --I think it Harold Polk that he asked, could have been Jimmy Humphrey, the general manager--if I 00:32:00would--instead of flying direct to New York, if I would fly through Chicago 'cause he wanted to meet me. He met me at 6:20 in the morning, and he was driving, he had a station wagon. And at that time, he didn't have his false leg. He just had the stump and he was able to drive the car, using the gas pedal with one hand and --it was an amazing thing, but he met me at the plane. Took me out to breakfast, and gave me a check for a thousand dollars, and I'd never seen a thousand dollars before in my life. I was forever indebted to Bill Veeck. And Bill was, was really a sweetheart of a guy to deal with. At those years, you see, I was still in the minor leagues, and it was very easy to sign me for the minors, for the major league minimum. And I was very happy.

MARSHALL: Veeck of course left --the team before you came up full time. And the president then became Ellis Ryan?

ROSEN: Ellis Ryan was, was an insurance man by trade. Very nice. Very 00:33:00courtly gentleman. Had very little to do with baseball. The baseball operations were turned over to Hank Greenberg at that time.

MARSHALL: Okay. So really you don't, you didn't have that much contact with, with Mr. Ryan.

ROSEN: Very little.

MARSHALL: Very little. How about Hank Greenberg? He was the general manager.

ROSEN: The toughest negotiator I ever met. He was absolutely stone cold deaf to anybody's pleas for more money. One year there were four of us holding out, and the total, the total package for the four of us was six thousand dollars. How's that sound by today's standards? He had four players holding out for a total of six thousand dollars?

MARSHALL: It's amazing.

ROSEN: Yeah. But Hank was a very difficult man to deal with. I didn't enjoy dealing with him at all.

MARSHALL: He made life rather uncomfortable.

ROSEN: Well, he did, because Hank never forgot that he was a player. And he would, when you would go in to see him, he would tell you about his records. For instance, if you'd go in and you were in your third year, he would tell you 00:34:00what he did in his third year. If it was the fourth year, he told you what he did in his fourth year. And very uncomfortable. Because you should never make comparisons. You know, you never make comparisons like that. You pay a man for what he's worth.

MARSHALL: That first year, I guess you were making the minimum, is that right. The major league minimum?

ROSEN: Yes, I made the minimum and they gave me a, a bonus that year. For leading the league in homeruns.

MARSHALL: That year, also, you did --even though you were second in the All-Star balloting, you, you didn't get on the team. Is that --

ROSEN: Well, that was another story.

MARSHALL: That was another story.

ROSEN: Yeah. At that time, the balloting was, was done by the fans and the manager had the right to fill out the team. I was second on the balloting --but Casey Stengle elected to use Bobby Brown, his third baseman as a fill-in.

MARSHALL:

ROSEN: And it was, there was quite a furor over that. I never forgave Casey 00:35:00for that. Because I felt that was a terrible slight because at that time --and I didn't realize it --okay I started getting calls from all over the country. Writers from all over the country, and they were tellin' me that I was ahead of Hack Wilson in RBI record, and I was ahead of the Babe Ruth --I didn't realize that, that at that time I think I had --eighty, eighty runs batted in or something like that and twenty-five homeruns. Hittin' over .300. So it was a terrible slight. It was not done out of malice. He wanted to honor his man. I understand that now that I've gotten older, but at that time, I was quite furious about it.

MARSHALL: You were hurt --yeah. You still had a fantastic year. Even though you slowed down a little bit.

ROSEN: I slowed down tremendously.

MARSHALL: But, still for, physically for --a rookie year. A so-called rookie year, it was a fantastic year --Let me go back to Chandler. Did you have any contact with Chandler after you became a major league ballplayer? That year, 00:36:001950, of course was his last full year as commissioner.

ROSEN: The contact I've had with Happy, and I still have it --I see him on occasion at large functions. And did through the years. He's always the same. He's always got a good story to tell ya. He's always got a big smile on his face. He's always got a great big handshake and a clap on the back. And he remembers everything about you. Which is one of those flattering things a man can do. To remember what another, another man has done.

MARSHALL: Okay. What did the other players think of him?

ROSEN: I really can't speak for other players, except that I know that he was a tremendously popular man.

MARSHALL: Okay.

ROSEN: More so, I'm sure more so with the players than with the owners.

MARSHALL: Than with the owners. Okay. Did you, were you surprised at all when he was voted out of office?

ROSEN: I really can't --you know those, those thoughts --I can't really deal with.

MARSHALL: Okay.

ROSEN: I'm not surprised at all what, what the owners will do to the commissioner. You know, 'cause the commissioner had, at that time had sixteen men of diverse interests. While they may feel that their interests are all zeroed in on the betterment of baseball, they all view getting to that goal in different ways. So the commissioner really is the --you've got to be very strong and be willing to sustain the pounding that he gets.

MARSHALL: In some respects, then, what you're saying is he sort of stands in the way of some of the things that the owners would like to do.

ROSEN: Well, he can be at odds with an owner or owners over a, over some, you know, some kind of a--altercation that's taken place or something of that nature. He, he can be at odds. He can, he can view something one way, and he can view it a different way.

MARSHALL: Or disqualify a player or a signing.

ROSEN: Sure. I mean those things --

MARSHALL: In your opinion, has the role of the commissioner changed significantly during this era, as opposed to the era --

ROSEN: I'm not sure that the, the basics have changed. But I think that the, the commissioner today is dealing on a much grander scale. As I said, you're dealing in a country that has twenty-six major league baseball teams, and it's throughout the country, with two teams in Canada. You're dealing with a vast television audience. The media, which is far greater than that, was known in the days of Happy Chandler and before Happy Chandler, Landis and even Ford Frick when he came in. You're, you're dealing with a, a sport that last year drew forty million people, which is an all-time record, and this year will go higher. So that it's, you're dealing --and there's more interest overseas. So you're dealing on a much bigger scale today. The basics may be there. The 00:39:00betterment of baseball. But, I, I think that the problems are unbelievably greater today than they were then.

MARSHALL: Much more complex.

ROSEN: Much more.

MARSHALL: How do you feel that it appears to the, the fan? I mean is there as much interest in baseball? I mean, again, we're talking in terms of --attendance records and so on and so forth, but with regard to other, other sports activities and so on. Is there as much interest in, in the game?

ROSEN: Well, first --you have to understand that we are a nation of sports and automobiles. I mean, no matter how much anybody wants to tell you there are other things, that's, that's where it is. People drive. They all have cars. And they all participate. If they're not participating, they're watching. Baseball has gotten bigger, just like other sports have gotten bigger.

[End Tape #1, Side #1]

[Start Tape #1, Side #2]

ROSEN: So sure, baseball has gotten bigger. All other sports have gotten bigger too.

MARSHALL: Okay. Were you at all, as a player, aware of such controversy as the 00:40:00reserve clause? Again player representation, I alluded to that earlier, and the pension plan --

ROSEN: No, not really. We were delighted when a pension plan was brought in. But as far as free agency and things like that, it was some thing that we just never discussed. We never thought about.

MARSHALL: You pretty well accepted the game for what it was.

ROSEN: And accepted the way things were done. That you signed. You were sent a contract, you had some thoughts about something, you tried to settle it somewhere in between --that sort of thing.

MARSHALL: You did your own negotiating as a player?

ROSEN: Oh, sure. And all of us were bad at it.

MARSHALL: At a disadvantage.

ROSEN: That's right.

MARSHALL: Do you have any, any other anecdotes or recollections regarding the period 1945-51 that you would like to share? Things that we might not have 00:41:00covered? Anything that sticks in your mind?

ROSEN: I'm not sure I remember --there --there are certain attendance records that are still held by teams in those, those years. I think the Yankees held all-time attendance records. They're all-time. I think the Indians, I think it was interesting to me was that while in Cleveland in 1948 and from `48 on, it was a place to go. We'd come out in full regalia. Dressed --women in mink stoles. And it was really the place to be.

MARSHALL: A social event.

ROSEN: Social --it was a big social event. And I, I remember that very well. And I remember the fact that, that kids emulating their heroes and playing their Little Leagues and things of that nature. And the fact that players would go out and conduct clinics and all that sort of thing. They were great years in Cleveland. When you say `45, you know, when I get back to `46, 00:42:00`7, `8 and `9, I'm talking about my minor league days. And I have great memories of that. In San Diego I lived at LaJoya. Right out on the beach. When I played there. And that isn't all bad. But --and you remember --you know, there's not much else you remember except your, your own experiences. People you met. The friendships that you made and kept, that sort of thing.

MARSHALL: Okay. Well, on behalf of the University of Kentucky, I'd really like to thank you for the time that you took, and --

ROSEN: I'm delighted.

MARSHALL: This is going to be a really great addition to the Chandler collection.

ROSEN: Thank you.

MARSHALL: Thank you.

[End of Interview]