Interview with Lawrence W. Wetherby, February 16, 1979

 KLEBER: The following is a spontaneous and unrehearsed interview with former governor Lawrence W. Wetherby. It was conducted by John Kleber of Morehead State University at Governor Wetherby's home in Frankfort, Kentucky on Friday, February 16, 1979. Governor Wetherby, I note that you graduated from law school in--on June 6, 1929. When you got your law degree, can you tell me what you did?

WETHERBY: Well, I, uh, immediately started practicing law with Judge Henry Tilford and Thomas Fisher in the, uh, old Kenyon Building in Louisville.

KLEBER: This was just shortly before the stock market crashed in 1929. Can you tell me what effect that stock market crash had on your, uh, on your job?

WETHERBY: Well, it, uh, really tore up things in Louisville and Jefferson County. Uh, the effects of the market were not felt immediately. The thing 00:01:00that, uh, really tore up the economy, though, was shortly after the crash. Uh, within the next year, all of the banks closed in 1930 and that just shut down practically all of the law practice.

KLEBER: Did you continue to practice law through the early 1930s and indeed right on through that, uh, decade? What different kind of jobs did you have during that time? Can you tell me about your, uh, work habits?

WETHERBY: I practiced law and then--(clears throat)--in 1933, Judge Ben F. Ewing was elected county judge and he gave me a part-time job as attorney for the juvenile court. I started working in, uh, the juvenile court as attorney for him in 1934--January of '34. After Judge Ewing was elected and sworn into 00:02:00office. That was only a part-time employment, though, and I continued in active practice until 1950 when I was elected lieutenant governor, or rather when I assumed the office of governor. I practiced law from the time I graduated until 1950. In 1943, I was appointed as the first judge of a juvenile court in Kentucky in the Jefferson County Juvenile Court. That was also a part-time employment, and I continued to practice and preside over the juvenile court until 1947, at which time I ran for lieutenant governor.

KLEBER: Let me, uh, ask you about, uh, being, uh, attorney for judge of 00:03:00Juvenile Court and then you were the first judge of the Juvenile Court. Can you tell me something about how, uh, juveniles were treated in those days, and what the conditions were for them?

WETHERBY: Well, we had a detention home, but, uh--(clears throat)--while I was attorney for the juvenile court, we created, uh--or had the city of Louisville to create a branch in the police department to deal with the juveniles. And any time a juvenile was arrested, he would take him to this group that was the juvenile division of the police department, and they would either parole the child or send him to the detention home until the next day, at which time, he would come before the juvenile court and be released to his parents, or sent back to the detention home while an investigation of his background was being 00:04:00handled. We had, uh, all kinds of problems with the juveniles at that time, and, uh, the, uh, that's the reason that the judge of Jefferson County asked the legislature to create the trial commissioner for the juvenile court, who became judge of the juvenile court and in that way, I was the first one appointed, by Judge Mark, Mark Beauchamp of Jefferson County. And, uh, we then--I was available at all times for the purpose of paroling a child or letting him stay in the detention home until an arraignment in court. We had court three days a week, and, uh, we tried to keep the children, if they weren't, uh, due to be in 00:05:00the detention home, we tried to get them out and get them in their home so that the probation officers could make an investigation of their situation.

KLEBER: This was during the Depression, when there was a lot of unemployment. Uh, was there a lot of crime and, and bad crime during the 1930s that you came in contact with among juveniles?

WETHERBY: Yes, there was quite a bit. And of course, uh, it increased as the war years came along and the mothers started working in the war factories and the children were left alone and we had more and more of it, right through those years. Had it increased and right along--and as I say, that's the reason that Judge Beauchamp, uh, appointed me as trial commissioner so as to devote more attention to the children and to the parents. At that time, we would take warrants against parents who were neglecting their children by allowing them to 00:06:00be in their homes without any supervision and, uh, we could then get into the home with a probation officer and then make some arrangements for someone to look after the children while--if the mother and father were both working.

KLEBER: What kind of facilities were there for, uh, juvenile children at the time? Uh, places where they might be kept?

WETHERBY: Well, we had the detention home we called it up on, uh, Chestnut Street. We also had the Kentucky Children's Home, which was out at Lyndon, Kentucky. And if a child was in such shape, either dependent or neglected or delinquent, we could commit him to the Kentucky, uh, Children's Home at Lyndon, and they would have supervision there if they had none at home.

WETHERBY: Uh, this was during the Depression years when you held this job. Uh, was the salary you made adequate to, to live comfortably during that time, or did they--

WETHERBY: No, of course, and as I say, that was just a part-time job. The salary was a hundred twenty-five dollars a month.

KLEBER: Gosh. What other things were you doing, in addition to that kind of job?

WETHERBY: I was practicing law, running titles and, uh, doing, uh, divorce cases and general law practice. I was associated with the law firm of Judge Tilford, and then we finally found--formed a law firm of Tilford and Wetherby.

KLEBER: Um, did the Depression affect your law practice at all?

WETHERBY: Oh, yeah. It sure did. Uh, as a matter of fact, uh, the--when the Depression, uh, hit and when the banks closed, uh, uh, you couldn't borrow money, the banks would not make loans and, uh, law practice was slim. And it 00:08:00was rough going. And of course, I, the optimist, got married in April of 1930, and things really got tough for the next three or four years.

KLEBER: Um, I'm interested in your, uh, political affiliation during these years of the Depression. Uh, you were a member of the Democratic party, is that right?

WETHERBY: That's right. And I was the, uh, chairman of the Thirty-fourth Legislative District, which was the entire eastern half of Jefferson County. And I was the chairman and served on the committee, the city-county executive committee it was called in those days. And I supported, in 1933, in the judge's race, Judge Ben F. Ewing and he then offered me almost any job that I wanted, 00:09:00but he wanted me to take a full-time job and I did not want to give up my law practice that I was starting, so I took a part-time job as attorney for the juvenile court.

KLEBER: Judge Ewing was county judge, is that right?

WETHERBY: He was county judge.

KLEBER: How did you come to support him? Was he a friend of yours?

WETHERBY: Well, he was, uh, running on the ticket that--what they called the Taylor Ticket. We had a big split in the Democratic party, and it was the Taylor and Miller scrap going on, and Judge Ewing was on the Taylor side and I was a friend of the Taylor group, and they had asked me to, uh, support their side of the ticket in the primary, which I did.

KLEBER: Uh, how did you first get interested in politics when you were living--

WETHERBY: Well, I was interested in it from time I was twelve or thirteen years old. My dad was interested in it and was very active in the Democratic party in 00:10:00Middletown, and then he was also, uh, a candidate for the Board of Education and as a result of that, why, that was a political race at that time, and I started working in his campaign and continued working in campaigns from then up until just recently. (coughs)

KLEBER: Uh, were you interested only in local campaigns? Or--what about the national campaign? Let's--

WETHERBY: No, I was, I was interested in all of them in the Democratic party, and whenever we had a fight, why--or a campaign, I was in it.

KLEBER: Let's take this 1928 presidential election. Do you recall any memories on that? The Al Smith, uh--

WETHERBY: Very, very many of them. I, uh, there were two of us in Middletown that were very much interested in supporting Al Smith. And of course the religious issue became a big issue in the campaign, and the other man, who later 00:11:00went to law school with me, and was going to law school at that time, he was the son of a Methodist preacher and he and I were the only fellows that would get out and talk for the Democratic picket--ticket in Middletown. Because Middletown was a highly Protestant community, and they were anti-Catholic, and anti-Al Smith. But we stuck with Al Smith and supported him and did fairly well, in view of the situation.

KLEBER: Well, of course, Hoover won that election and, uh, uh, I guess Al Smith should have been glad that he lost it. Uh, then we come four years later, to 1932, and--

WETHERBY: --yeah. Um-hm--

KLEBER: --Franklin Roosevelt's candidacy. I suppose--I'm sure you were a strong Roosevelt supporter, is that right?

WETHERBY: Yes. Very much.

KLEBER: um, did you work actively for the Roosevelt campaign in '32?

WETHERBY: I worked very actively in that campaign during the entire year.

KLEBER: What about, uh, politics on the state level during the 1930s? Uh, 00:12:00did this involve you at all or were you--

WETHERBY: The only one I was involved in was--the first one that I was involved in, statewide, was 1935 when the Chandler, uh, Rhea fight came off in the primary. We had a double primary. Two primaries. And I supported Chandler. My brother supported Rhea, and Chandler won, but then Chandler made a deal with the, uh--my brother's side of the faction in Jefferson County and cut us out. I was on the Taylor side, my brother George was on the Miller side, and they supported Rhea and we supported Chandler, and then soon as the legislature started, Chandler dumped us--our side, and took the Rhea side.

KLEBER: You said there were two primaries that year. How--why was that?

WETHERBY: That's right. Because, uh, they had, uh, a--double primary they 00:13:00called it. The, uh, Chandler had called a special session of the legislature when Laffoon went out of Kentucky to go to Washington to secure federal funds, uh, during the Depression. And when Laffoon crossed the state line, Chandler became acting governor, and as such, called a session of the legislature to force a primary in Kentucky. Prior to that time, we had chosen our candidates through a convention system. But Chandler called this, uh, legislature for the purpose of, uh, making a primary mandatory. Laffoon came back immediately and 00:14:00tried to do away with the call of the legislature. The court would not allow it, and said that the acting governor had a right to call the session. So then Laffoon, who was governor, proposed that they have two primaries instead of one. In other words, a run-off primary, and there were about five or six candidates in the first primary, and Laffoon won that--I mean Rhea won that primary. Chandler was the runner-up. But in the second primary, most of those other, uh, candidates joined Chandler and they beat Rhea in the second primary, and Chandler became the nominee of the Democratic party, and was elected in the fall of 1935.

KLEBER: So you say your a--you were a Chandler supporter. Your brother was a Rhea supporter, but then there was this turn-around.

WETHERBY: Yeah.

KLEBER: Um, after that, did this affect your relationship with Chandler's administration or--

WETHERBY: Yes, because he just cut us out entirely and made a deal with the other side, which was--in Jefferson County was the Brennan side and I was on the Taylor side, and Taylor's crowd supported Chandler, and the Brennan crowd supported Rhea. But after the election, and when the legislature met in 1936, Chandler made a deal with the Brennan people because they didn't have the, uh, members of the legislature on their side from Jefferson County. So he made a deal with them and dumped our side.

KLEBER: Hmm. So this is why he's doing it: he wants his strength in the legislature.

WETHERBY: That's right. He wanted the votes in the legislature.

KLEBER: Did it work for him?

WETHERBY: Hmm?

KLEBER: Did it work?

WETHERBY: Oh, yeah, it worked for him. And he and the Brennan crowd then had all of the patronage and all of the operations of the legislature.

KLEBER: Um-hm. Let's see now. Chandler was elected in 1935.

WETHERBY: Thirty-five.

KLEBER: In '35. Let me ask you this--this question that I was just thinking about, although it doesn't come chronologically here. You said that, uh, Lieutenant Governor Chandler called a special session of the legislature. Recently Lieutenant Governor Thel--Thelma Stovall called a special session, and at both times, this has irked the governor who's been in power. Now you yourself, were a lieutenant governor. What was that relationship between Governor Clements and yourself? Would you have felt right in calling a special legislature--

WETHERBY: No, I would not because I worked very closely with Governor Clements. As a matter of fact, the day we were sworn into office, in 1947, Governor Clements asked me to come over and spend the night with him at the mansion, 00:17:00which I did. My wife and I spent the night there. The next day, he said, "Come on, let's go to work." And I went over and started working with him on making a budget to submit to the legislature in January. And we worked closely during the whole three years that he was there until he ran for the Senate in 1950.

KLEBER: Did he ever give you any kind of list of things, now you're not to do this, you're not to do this when I'm gone?

WETHERBY: Never did. He trusted me fully and I trusted him fully. And we, uh,we had disagreements over different things, but we would argue them out and whenever we reached a decision, both of us supported it.

KLEBER: When he was gone from the state and you were then acting governor, did you feel that you had quite a bit of prerogative to do what you wanted to do?

WETHERBY: Oh, I had absolute freedom. I could do anything I wanted to do. But I had no feeling to tear up the state by calling a special session.

KLEBER: In other words, your loyalty was to the governor and, uh, you were--

WETHERBY: And my feeling was that we were elected together and we should continue to serve together and, uh, do everything we could to promote the state, instead of promoting ourselves.

KLEBER: So it was one of the more harmonious, uh, lieutenant governor-governor relationships, wouldn't you say?

WETHERBY: Well, ours was perfect; our, uh, relationship, yes.

KLEBER: How long did you know Governor Clements before you ran with him for lieutenant governor? Was it long?

WETHERBY: He came into my office in--when I was practicing law and a member of the city and county committee as I told you a while ago, when he got ready to run for governor in the spring of 1947. He came into my office, introduced 00:19:00himself and said, uh, he wanted me to be for him for governor. And I said, well, I'm part of an organization here. You go out and talk to the leaders of that organization. He said, "I have and they sent me to you. That's the reason I came over here." And he said, "I want you to manage my campaign." I said, well, I'll talk to them about it and, uh, he wanted me to manage his campaign in Jefferson County. I said, I'll talk to them about it and talk to you later. In the meantime, I talked to them and all those leaders and, uh, first thing you know they were talking to me about running for lieutenant governor. And, uh, I said, well, uh, Clements had asked me to manage his campaign and they said, well, he's not going to, uh, run a slate or a ticket, but with what you have in Jefferson County, and the publicity you've gotten as judge of Juvenile Court, 00:20:00you can get the nomination for lieutenant governor. Well, they talked me into running and I started out running. That's the first time I'd ever gotten out into the state to make a race.

KLEBER: Let me go back to the, uh, political system in Louisville in the 1930s and--am I correct in assuming that Taylor was the mayor of Louisville?

WETHERBY: Well, not at that time.

KLEBER: Yeah.

WETHERBY: He ran for mayor in 1933 against Neville Miller.

KLEBER: Okay.

WETHERBY: Neville Miller won in the primary. Taylor later, uh, got control of the organization and was elected mayor.

KLEBER: Now did you support Neville Miller?

WETHERBY: No, I supported, uh, Taylor.

KLEBER: Yeah. But even after Neville Miller, when he won the primary--

WETHERBY: Oh yes. After--yes, after he was, uh, elected--well, after he was 00:21:00nominated, I supported him in the fall, yes.

KLEBER: Can you tell me why this close relationship with Taylor, and, uh, where you met him and something about this man?

WETHERBY: Well, two or three of his employees--he ran a, a pretty big business operation in Jefferson County, and two or three of his employees and close associates were friends of mine, and through that relationship, I got close to Leland Taylor's organization.

KLEBER: What kind of organization was this? Did he control the political machine in Louisville?

WETHERBY: No, the political machine was controlled by Brennan, and Brennan--Taylor had tried to gain control in the reorganization of the party in 1931, but the Brennan side won that reorganization fight, and cut Taylor out, so 00:22:00then Taylor elected to run for mayor in 1933, and the Brennan side picked Neville Miller to run. And Neville Miller was the dean of the law school where I had attended school and had been one of my professors. So I had quite a hard time getting away from him.

KLEBER: So he did win the mayoral race at that time?

WETHERBY: That's right.

KLEBER: And went in for four years, and then, well you said, they come around and then Taylor wins four years later, is that correct?

WETHERBY: Yes. That's right. I believe it was four years later. Anyway--no, it was--yes, it was. It was four years later. Taylor won and was elected mayor, and died in office.

KLEBER: He died in office.

WETHERBY: Then the Board of Aldermen, in 1948, selected Charlie Farnsley to fill out the term of Leland Taylor, and then Farnsley was elected for a full 00:23:00four-year term.

KLEBER: Uh, I wonder about the great flood of 1937 in the Ohio Valley. Do you have some remembrances on this? Were you living in Jefferson County at the time of this flood?

WETHERBY: Yes, I was living--well, as a matter of fact, I was living in Crescent Hill, uh, and I was, at that time, attorney for the juvenile court and Judge, uh, judge of Jefferson County asked all of us in the juvenile court to come over to the armory and to assist in the flood, in working in it. And I spent several days at the armory trying to set up cots and set up arrangements to take care of people who were run out of their homes. Neville Miller was the 00:24:00mayor of Louisville at the time, and Judge Ewing was the county judge. And Judge Ewing had asked us from the juvenile court to go over and help set up the armory for the refugees who were being brought into the--by the welfare department.

KLEBER: But, uh, you were living out in the east end of the county, so you were in no way affected by it--

WETHERBY: That's right.

KLEBER: --is that correct?

WETHERBY: And as a matter of fact, while I was at the armory, some of the people in the east end were taking in families and helping them out. My wife had a whole family come in and stay with her--(laughs)--while I was down at the armory helping others.

KLEBER: Did you have heat and light, water at that time?

WETHERBY: Out at east end, yes. Where we were living, it was, it was all right. And as a matter of fact, then when I got home, after two or three days, I went out to my old home of Middletown, and they were in fine shape out there. 00:25:00As a matter of fact, we were using the school building out there for some of the refugees that we brought out of the city of Louisville.

KLEBER: Let me ask you something about--a personal nature and--how you met your wife and, uh, something about your courtship and some of her background.

WETHERBY: Well, uh, she--her father was a doctor, the same as my father. And he bought a small farm right south of Middletown when we were about--we were both about fourteen years of age. And, my wife and her brother came into Middletown one time from that farm when we were getting ready to go on a picnic, and we asked them to go, and that's the day I met my wife.

KLEBER: Childhood sweethearts?

WETHERBY: Yeah, from ninth--we were both about fourteen years of age, and then she would--they would come out to this farm every summer, and I'd get to see her and visit with her then. And that's when our courtship started.

KLEBER: And her maiden name?

WETHERBY: Dwyer. Helen Dwyer.

KLEBER: And--

WETHERBY: She lived in Portland, they called it. She lived on 26th Street when I first met her. That was their home. As I say, they had bought this farm out south of Middletown, when I met her.

KLEBER: Well, let's see, you were about twenty-three, I guess, when you married her.

WETHERBY: That's right.

KLEBER: Twenty-four or something like that.

WETHERBY: Yeah.

KLEBER: Um, when did you-all decide to get married, and, and where did you?

WETHERBY: We decided to get married about Christmas time of 1929. And agreed to get married in April of 1930, and we were married on April 24th, 1930.

KLEBER: The, uh, Depression that came a few months, that before. That didn't--

WETHERBY: Well, the Depression actually didn't start until 1930. The, the stock market crashed in October of '29 and things were still pretty good in the law practice so I was an optimist and we got married and the Depression didn't hit us until the banks closed in the fall of 1930. And that's when things really went sour in Louisville and Jefferson County.

KLEBER: Where did you all live after you got married?

WETHERBY: We lived on Amy Street. We had an apartment. We lived there for a year. We had a, a--I secured an--we secured an apartment on Amy Street, uh, which was in the west end and we lived there for a year. Then we bought a place 00:28:00back at my home at Middletown and moved back out there.

KLEBER: Do you recall about when that was?

WETHERBY: Yes, 1932 we moved back to Middletown after our, after our son was born. He was born at my, uh, mother's home down on 44th and Broadway. And we stayed there with her parents for several months, and I bought this place at Middletown and we moved out there the next spring.

KLEBER: Was it pretty tough, uh, those first years of marriage, uh, back in those--

WETHERBY: It, it was pretty tough economically, it certainly was. (laughs) It was a struggle.

KLEBER: Let me ask you about, uh, your children. And, uh, could you tell me when they were born and list their names for me?

WETHERBY: My oldest son, Lawrence, Jr., was born on March 24, 1931, and died on 00:29:00October 6, 1978. My next daughter--next child was a daughter, Suzanne, who is married to Warner Hines, and she is now forty-five. Her birthday is October the third. My next child was Barbara, and she married a boy from Frankfort here, George Perry, who is a principal of a high school in Mt. Vernon, Ohio at this time. She was born on January 3, 1935. And she and George have nine children. Sue and Warner have four--(laughs)--girls. Larry left two boys. So I have 00:30:00fifteen grandchildren.

[Pause in the recording.]

KLEBER: Uh, in the late 1930s, World War Two was, was coming on in Europe, and broke out there in 1939. Uh, do, uh, you recall interest in the coming of the war and, uh, opinions you might have had against Hitler and--

WETHERBY: Yes, I recall several instances. An aunt of my wife's had married a person who was in the consular service, and they had been in France and Germany, and he was here on a visit in 1939. They were here together. Uh, Leonard Dawson was his name, and he said, "Well, there's going--there's going to be a war; Hitler's going to try to conquer the world." He told us that when he was 00:31:00here on his visit. Uh, then, on September 1, 1939 was the opening of the dove season--(Kleber laughs)--and one of Helen's uncles, Dr. George Dwyer was to pick me up to go on this dove hunt, and when he picked me up early in the morning, he said, "Did you know we have--we're in the war?" I said, what war? He said, "Well, Hitler has gone into Poland this morning." So he said, "You're into World War Two right now."

KLEBER: Hmm. Interesting. When the war came for America's entry in 1941, uh, did you think of enlisting at this time or were you past the age really of--

WETHERBY: Well, I had three children and I was judge of the Juvenile Court. I went to my superior officer, the judge, and asked him about it. And I said, now, a lot of my friends here that are practicing law are getting commissions in the army. What about me? He said, "You stay where you are. We need you here." Said, "Go on and register and if they call you, why go. Otherwise you stay in the business you're in, taking care of kids here at home." And I later applied for a commission, but I did not secure one, so I stayed and then went into the judgeship of the, uh, juvenile court.

KLEBER: Where were you on December 7, 1941 when you heard the news?

WETHERBY: I was in front of the post office in Anchorage. My wife and I had moved to Anchorage with our kiddos in, uh, about March or April of 1939, and on 00:33:00the Sunday that the Japs bombed Pearl Harbor, my wife and I were on a walk in Anchorage down--and we were right in front of the post office with the three kiddos when a former associate of mine, Thomas Fisher, ran up to us and said, "Did you know that we're in a war?" And that's the first I had heard of it and we were right in front of the post office in Anchorage.

KLEBER: In the 1930s, is there any one politician that had a tremendous influence on you? That you came in contact with, more than any other?

WETHERBY: Well, I suppose Judge Ben Ewing had a greater influence on me, as a 00:34:00politician than any one of the many that I was associated with.

KLEBER: Can you tell me why that was?

WETHERBY: I guess because of his nature and his background and my background. We had both come from the eastern part of Jefferson County. We, uh, both had had contact with farm operations, and, uh, he was a Methodist, I was a Methodist. And he was a real dedicated man, and I, I suppose he had the greatest influence on me politically.

KLEBER: Now was he, uh, he was older than you, I take it, wasn't he?

WETHERBY: Yes.

KLEBER: Yeah. Do you think he was some--something like a mentor to you?

WETHERBY: Yes he was.

KLEBER: He kind of took you under his wing and--

WETHERBY: Yes. As to the political mentorship. As to the legal, uh, training 00:35:00and admiration, I had an associate, Judge Henry Tilford who had more influence on me from that standpoint than anyone else.

KLEBER: In what way did he influence you?

WETHERBY: Well, he encouraged me in my law practice and, uh, gave me cases to handle when I first started practicing law and took me into cases with him and, uh, then, uh, he was a real student of the law and hammered that to me, day in and day out, in the law offices.

KLEBER: So Tilford and Ewing, you feel, in this period of the thirties were big influences on you?

WETHERBY: Yes.

KLEBER: Anyone else that you could--would add into that group?

WETHERBY: No, not, uh, particularly. Uh, in the thirties, those two, I'd say.

KLEBER: Were you ever a great, uh, fan of Clarence Darrow in the 1930s?

WETHERBY: Not particularly. Not particularly. I, I never was interested in the criminal law aspect of the legal profession, and, uh, I felt that he was more of a criminal lawyer than he was of a legal student.

KLEBER: So you weren't, certainly weren't an admirer of him, then. Uh, Alben Barkley comes on the scene at this time, and do you recall any early impressions of Alben Barkley in the 1930s?

WETHERBY: Yes, I gained some real admiration for Barkley. I was supporting Chandler as I stated, and, uh, Chandler and Barkley were debating the senatorial race and I learned a great deal of Barkley's strength and his, uh, character in 00:37:00watching that race.

KLEBER: Okay, what race was that? Do you, uh, recall?

WETHERBY: That was in 1938 or nine--thirty-nine. And Chandler was governor and decided he was going to beat Barkley in the Senate race. Barkley was the majority leader of the Senate under Roosevelt, and Barkley beat Chandler. It was a knock-down, drag-out primary. Then, subsequent to that, I became very close to Barkley and Senator Clements and I went to the convention in Chicago and supported Barkley with our delegation for the presidency. And we thought we 00:38:00were doing real well until the labor crowd got together and pulled the rug out from under us. Uh, they said Barkley was too old to run for president and would not support him.

KLEBER: Let me ask you a question on that before I forget it. Was his name placed in nomination in the '52 convention, or not?

WETHERBY: No, this was the '48--

KLEBER: This was '48--

WETHERBY: --Forty-eight is when we were--I believe it was '48 when we were working so hard for him. No, it may have been--it was '52.

KLEBER: Fifty-two, I believe.

WETHERBY: It was '52, you're correct. And he called Clements and me and told us what had happened with his meeting with the labor crowd. And he said--so I was going to nominate him--

KLEBER: Okay.

WETHERBY: --and he said, "Do not place me in nomination." I said, well, Senator, we're going to put you in nomination. And he said, "No, Lawrence, I 00:39:00forbid you to nominate me." So we went back to our crowd and told them--to our delegation, and they still wanted to nominate him. I said, well, he's forbidden me from nominating him. So a friend of his, the senator from Missouri came to talk to me about it, and I said, well, he's forbidden me to nominate him. "He hasn't forbidden me, and I'm going to nominate him." And he got the floor and nominated Barkley. And Barkley then got up and withdrew his name and made the big speech that he made.

KLEBER: Yeah. Well, you had a speech as I recall all written out for nominating Barkley.

WETHERBY: I did.

KLEBER: Yeah. But never were able to deliver it.

WETHERBY: And I wasn't able to deliver it because he'd forbid me to deliver it.

KLEBER: Right. Did you get to know Barkley in this, uh, 1939 senatorial race against Chandler? Did you meet him at that time?

WETHERBY: Yes. Yes, that's when I got to know him.

KLEBER: He must have had a tremendous impact on many politicians, young politicians in Kentucky. What was it about Barkley that was so appealing?

WETHERBY: Well, Barkley--Barkley could take off--'course that was the only trouble he had. He didn't know when to quit talking. He could--he told--he would tell a story that--about a fellow--he was making a long speech and the fellow pulled out his watch, and he said, "Well, you don't need a watch, you need a calendar." (both laugh) Barkley always, uh, laughed about the fact that people criticized him for speaking so long. But, uh, he had a tremendous effect on every young person interested in politics, I think, in Kentucky.

KLEBER: Why?

WETHERBY: Well, his, his approach to it, as an example. I was governor in 1954, and there was a Senate race up--coming up. 'Course my term expired in 00:41:001955. And all of the committee crowd and political friends of ours wanted me to run for the Senate in 1954. I said, no, I will not do it. I said, Clements did that in 1950, and I succeeded to the governorship. It'd be a mistake for two different governors successively to do that. And furthermore, I think Barkley ought to go back to the Senate. He had been vice president. He was not elected president and he--so I talked to Barkley at the Seelbach Hotel and told him he should run for the Senate. He said, "No, you're the fellow to run, and it's your job; you ought to have it." I said, Senator, I made a statement the day I 00:42:00was sworn into office that I would serve a full four-year term and I expect to do it. He said, "I still think you ought to run for Senate." I said, no, you're the fellow has to run 'cause you can win. Well, we argued about it back and forth for days. And I was getting ready to go on a vacation after the legislature, in 196--'54. And I talked to Senator Barkley before I left and I said now, when I get back, you announce for the Senate. He said, "No, I'm not going to do it." Said, "When you get back, you have to announce." I said, no sir. I said, "I want you to tell me you'll run." He said, "Well, I can't tell you today I'll run." He said, "Where you going?" I told him. He said, "Where you going to spend the night, the first night?" And I told him. He said, "When 00:43:00you get there, you call me and I'll give you a yes or a no." And I called him from Columbus, Georgia. He said, "I still think you ought to run." I said, well, I'm not going to run. You're going to run, aren't you? He said, "Yes, I will." So he ran and, uh, I supported him. And the--

KLEBER: He beat Cooper, didn't he?

WETHERBY: Yes. And the administration supported him. And, uh one of the arguments he would give me about, uh, not running, he'd say, "Well, I'm not financially able to run. I can't raise the money. I never could raise money." I said, we can raise the money. Our administration will raise--(laughs)--the money for you to run. And, uh so--(laughs)--when we got him in it, then he said, "Well you--you better raise some money." I said, okay, we'll start raising it. And I started calling on people, to ask them to contribute and the press boys got a hold of it and they said, "We understand you're putting the 00:44:00heat on to raise money." I said, that's right. I said, you all want to join me? I'm calling all the employees to meet right over in the cafeteria at noon, and I'm going to talk to them about what we're interested in. I said, come over and join us. I took all the press boys with me, went over, got the employees all in the cafeteria, and I said, we're supporting Senator Barkley for--to go back to the Senate, and I want all of you-all to help us financially, whatever you can contribute, contribute to him.

[Tape 1, side 1 ends; tape 1, side 2 begins.]

KLEBER: Okay. Did Barkley beat Cooper pretty badly that year?

WETHERBY: Pretty badly.

KLEBER: Uh, that's interesting. I, I noticed that, I know that when Virgil Chapman died in the Senate, there was some pressure on you to resign from the governorship and go into the Senate, wasn't there?

WETHERBY: That's right.

KLEBER: But you never, uh, gave this a thought at all?

WETHERBY: Oh, I gave it a thought, and a close friend of mine, who was the president pro tem in the senate, and as such was acting lieutenant governor when I was acting governor, he was--encouraged me to go because he would have become governor. And he and I went out fishing the afternoon about it, and talked about it and we came back in and I told him, I said, well, I'll have to talk to Helen about it and see how she feels. I talked to her and I said, you want to go to Washington? I said, everybody wants us to go. She said, "You're not going to Washington." (Kleber laughs) That was the end of that discussion.

KLEBER: You don't regret that, do you?

WETHERBY: No, I never did regret it. Matter of fact, I was glad that, that she had that feeling about it because, and we went on and talked about it. 'Course that was just the first statement, but we went on and talked about it because we had three youngsters in college, and we'd have had to have two homes and we just 00:46:00couldn't afford to do it.

KLEBER: What do you think would have happened if you had done that?

WETHERBY: No telling.

KLEBER: It's hard to say.

WETHERBY: No telling. Because, uh, I was on top of things because I'd been so close to Clements in his administration. And, I was taking the position that our side could name someone to run for governor to succeed me when I was acting governor and I took that position, well, that just solidified them all behind me, and they--it was sort of a draft thing. I don't know what would have happened had I left and left someone else there.

KLEBER: What year was that, uh, Chapman died?

WETHERBY: That was 1950.

KLEBER: 'Fifty. So you were in the--

WETHERBY: No, that was in '51.

KLEBER: Fifty-one?

WETHERBY: Yeah.

KLEBER: Okay.

WETHERBY: You see, I had taken over in November of '50 and had not announced as 00:47:00a candidate in '51.

KLEBER: Yeah. So it would have been pretty hard to turn your back on the party and walk away, wouldn't it?

WETHERBY: That's right.

KLEBER: Kind of left it without anyone at the helm.

WETHERBY: That's right.

KLEBER: Yeah. Did you--

WETHERBY: Particularly since I'd been so close to Clements and had such a hand in all of his program, developing it for four years.

KLEBER: Yeah. Do you remember, uh, consulting Clements at all about that question of going to the Senate?

WETHERBY: Never did. Matter of fact, uh, he called me and asked me who I was going to appoint. And asked me if I was--had my mind made up about it and I said, yes, pretty much.

KLEBER: And you went on to appoint, uh, Underwood?

WETHERBY: I went on to appoint Tom Underwood, and Clements was very much in favor of that. Then he and I got into a little sparring match over--(laughs)--who was going to succeed Underwood. And I was for John Watts and he was for Clyde Reed--Clyde Reeves--and, uh, my side won. (laughs) 'Course 00:48:00that was in the nominating convention of only the chairmen of the seventeen counties in the district.

KLEBER: This was to take Underwood's place, then--

WETHERBY: That's right.

KLEBER: When--in the Senate.

WETHERBY: To be the nominee for us in a special election for Underwood's place.

KLEBER: Now who was Tom Underwood, and why did you choose him in this position? I really--

WETHERBY: Tom Underwood had managed Clements's and my campaign in 1947. He was the editor of the Lexington Herald and he was quite active in the Democratic politics and he had been, uh, secretary of the Democratic state central executive committee in prior years. He had been very active in the Democratic party.

KLEBER: And he stayed in the Senate how long?

WETHERBY: Just until the fall, when, uh, Cooper beat him.

KLEBER: Cooper beat him in the election, yeah.

WETHERBY: Um-hm. Special election.

KLEBER: Special election, yeah. Which would have--

WETHERBY: Or election to fill out the unexpired term of, uh, of Chapman.

KLEBER: Probably did the wise thing. It's very difficult for a governor to appoint himself to the Senate and then go on to win election, isn't it? It's almost never done.

WETHERBY: That's right. It's pretty hard. However, uh, Chandler did it.

KLEBER: Yeah. He's about the only one that's ever done it, I think.

WETHERBY: That's right.

KLEBER: Very, very difficult thing.

WETHERBY: That's right.

KLEBER: Thank you very much, Governor Wetherby.

WETHERBY: Okay.

[End of interview.]