Interview with Lawrence W. Wetherby, August 30, 1979

 KLEBER: The following is a spontaneous and unrehearsed interview with former governor Lawrence W. Wetherby of Kentucky. The interview was made in Governor Wetherby's home in Frankfort, Kentucky on Thursday, August 30, 1979 by John Kleber, Professor of History, Morehead State University. Governor Wetherby, I am curious about the, uh, campaign of 1951 in which you ran, uh, for the governor of the commonwealth against a man by the name of Eugene Siler, and I'm particularly interested in the , um, you were--I'm particularly interested in the fact that you, you felt confident of victory all along. Is this correct?

WETHERBY: That's correct, John, because, uh, I had met some of the problems of Kentucky. I had had the experience as lieutenant governor and during the year 00:01:00that I was acting governor after Clements went to the Senate, I called a special session of the legislature and did some things that were very popular and very helpful, so I did not worry too much about the campaign in the fall. As a matter of fact, we had very little campaigning in the primary. Uh, but in the fall, I knew that Siler was a dangerous candidate in certain parts of the state, but I did not feel that he could hurt us in the rest of the state. I knew that he would get a tremendous vote up in the eastern, southeastern section of the state because that's where he was from, and that was what we called the Bible Belt where the whispering campaign was put out against me.

KLEBER: Well, now you won that, uh, that, uh, election rather decisively, and, uh, can you tell me something about the election night? Where were you and, uh, 00:02:00what kind of celebration did you--

WETHERBY: I went, I went to my headquarters which was in the old Seelbach Hotel at 4th and, uh, Walnut Street in Louisville. I went there, uh, right after the polls--or about the time the polls closed. I had a room there at the Seelbach, right above the headquarters. The headquarters was on the seventh floor, and I had a room on the ninth floor and, uh, my wife and I went down to Louisville shortly after noon on election day, and watched the returns come in. We had a set-up in our headquarters where the various county chairmen would call in the vote when they finished counting, and we kept a running total of where we stood, so we knew pretty much, uh, as soon as the first returns started coming in that 00:03:00we were home free, so to speak. And, uh, the celebration, I had a terrible time keeping the, uh, supporters from celebrating too early, but I said, if you go to celebrating too early here, they'll liable to out-count you in this eastern Kentucky section, so calm it down and wait 'til we get more returns in. And the, uh, then about the middle of the evening, uh, it was practically all over and we knew we were winning. So then we turned 'em loose, and they started celebrating in a big way.

KLEBER: Did you make a formal announcement that night on radio or television that you had, uh, won that election?

WETHERBY: Yes, I did. I, uh, thanked the people of Kentucky for their support and pledged that I would continue for four more years what I had been doing for that year and provide the leadership to make Kentucky a better state.

KLEBER: Do you recall Mr. Siler's concession speech at that time and what he said?

WETHERBY: No, I don't. And as a matter of fact, he didn't concede until the next day, late. Uh, but I've forgotten what he did say. I know that his supporters all said, well, it was the weather. So the cartoonist for the Louisville Times put a cartoon in shortly after that statement was made, either that day or the next day, and had a cartoon which showed a mule kicking an elephant and said, "It was Wetherby's record, instead of the weather."

KLEBER: Did he, uh, run well in eastern Kentucky or did he not--

WETHERBY: Yes, he did. As a matter of fact, that's the only section in which he secured many votes.

KLEBER: How did you run in the urban areas of northern Kentucky and Lexington 00:05:00and Louisville?

WETHERBY: I ran real well in, uh, Louisville and Lexington, and fair in northern Kentucky. One of the counties in Northern Kentucky, I ran real well in, the other one I ran pretty badly in because of the gambling situation.

KLEBER: Would that be Kenton County?

WETHERBY: Well, Kenton I ran pretty well in.

KLEBER: Did you? Really?

WETHERBY: Campbell was the one that cut me up. (both laugh)

KLEBER: Uh, well, after the victory then, you planned for the, uh, inauguration and the ceremonies that accompanied that. And, uh, can you tell me something about the preparations for that inauguration day and, uh--

WETHERBY: Yes, the, uh, local people take over the planning of the inauguration for the incoming governor and lieutenant governor, and it's, uh, in December. They have a committee, an--inaugural committee, a housing committee and, uh, a 00:06:00planning committee, and they provide all the leadership, that committee, that the local people select. And then, uh, on my occas--on my inauguration, Louis Cox of Frankfort was the chairman of that committee and presided over the inauguration.

KLEBER: Did you write your own inaugural address that year?

WETHERBY: Yes, I did.

KLEBER: You did. And, uh, another idea that comes to me is the fact that now you had, for the first time, a lieutenant governor, and this was, uh, "Doc" Beauchamp.

WETHERBY: That's right. Emerson "Doc" Beauchamp.

KLEBER: Can you tell me how you selected Doc Beauchamp to run with you, and something about Doc Beauchamp?

WETHERBY: Well, Doc Beauchamp was a great political leader of Logan County, and he had served in almost every position in state government. He had been the 00:07:00rural highway commissioner under Earle Clements, he knew the political set-up in every county of the state, and he came to me and told me he was gonna run for lieutenant governor. And I said, that's fine with me, and we will run together. And we did. And we had been friends prior to that time, and he had supported me vigorously when I ran for lieutenant governor, and was very helpful in helping me organize for governor. And we ran together and travelled together all during the fall campaign.

KLEBER: Now was there anyone else, uh, in addition to Doc Beauchamp, who wanted the lieutenant governorship?

WETHERBY: Yes, there were two or three people, and one of 'em, I recall particularly was Dr. Coldiron who had been in the senate, and he was from Perry 00:08:00County, in eastern Kentucky. And he wanted to run, and did run, against Beauchamp, but Beauchamp won handily.

KLEBER: Now, you said that Beauchamp came to you and, and said, "I'm going to run for lieutenant governor." Is the fact that, he came to you and said this, what made you select him? Or were there other reasons that you thought he'd be good to run with?

WETHERBY: Well, I knew he would be good because I knew he knew the political set-up in Kentucky and was a great organizer. And he would be helpful to me. And in addition to that, he and I were friends, had worked together under the Clements administration when I was lieutenant governor and he was the rural highway commissioner and he had also been the commissioner of personnel, and, uh, I knew that he knew the organizational set-up and he would help me and I thought would do a good job as lieutenant governor.

KLEBER: Were you ever afraid that perhaps because he had so much experience and so much influence that he might challenge you or pose some kind of a problem to 00:09:00you as governor?

WETHERBY: No, I never did, and, uh, as a matter of fact, Doc was such a team player that, uh, I would call the signals and he'd go right down the line. We never did have but one or two quarrels over various things and, uh, we settled them very amicably except one, and that was the voter signature law. And Doc would say, "Well, you just can't pass that, and I'm not gonna be for it." And I said, well, we'll pass it; now, you just quit fighting us. But he kept fighting. Finally I--we were about ready to vote on it in the senate, and I sent for Doc, called him down, and I said, Doc, I understand you're up there voting--working against my comparative signature law. "Oh, now, Governor, I have stopped." I said, you better stop, and if I catch you again, you and I are gonna have it. And he, he did stop. And we passed it. He never was satisfied 00:10:00with it but, uh, we did pass it.

KLEBER: I, I, now, here's an interesting fact. You were lieutenant governor under Earle Clements and now Doc Beauchamp is governor under you, so this, this moves you into both positions. I wonder if you could characterize how you were treated by Clements and the way you treated Doc Beauchamp. Was it about the same or did--was there--

WETHERBY: It was just about the same. Uh, Doc was just a part of us, our administration. He'd come to the mansion and eat with me regularly. Uh, he was very fond of my children, and he'd visit with them and I had a young daughter who would kid Beauchamp and carry on with him just like a--two youngsters carrying on, and Beauchamp was, uh, that way right through our administration and was very close to all of us, and as I say, we had one or two quarrels about 00:11:00legislation, but, uh, most of 'em were settled amicably except, as I told you, the one about the voting signature law.

KLEBER: So then you would say that you treated Doc Beauchamp pretty much the same way that Earle Clements had treated you, then as lieutenant governor--

WETHERBY: Yes, except to this extent: Earle would call me to work--help him work up a budget and would ask me to do various things for him and for the administration. I would ask Beauchamp to do that, but he'd say, "I don't know anything about that budget, and don't wanna know anything about it. You prepare it and then let me know what it is." And things like that. Now, lots of times, he would not want to participate, but I would invite him to 'em--and invite him to come and participate and, uh, Beauchamp was a, a great political leader and 00:12:00had contacts all over the state. I had problems with him on patronage. He would, uh, always come to me and say, I want a job for so-and-so in such-and-such county. I'd say, well, Doc, go to the department and let him qualify. "Well, you can help me." I'd say, well, now that's your baby, not mine. (laughs)

[Pause in recording.]

KLEBER: Recently, some, uh, governors have had difficulty in the fact that they were afraid to leave the state, hesitant to leave the state because in their absence, the lieutenant governor assumes a great deal of power. Did you and Doc Beauchamp had--have a kind of, uh, understanding about just what he could do when you were out of the state?

WETHERBY: We never had any quarrel about that at all. Doc was--whenever I'd leave the state, Doc took over and he would do what he thought was right. 00:13:00Occasionally, a rough question would come up and Doc would call me and say, "Well, I want to do this. Is it all right with you?" For instance, uh, in issuing a pardon. Before he would issue one, if I was out of the state and people came to him and he had the, uh, investigation made on the, uh, case, before he would ever sign the pardon, he'd call me and say, "Is it all right with you if I do this?" And I'd ask him what had been done, and he would tell me, and, uh, the same way on appointments. I remember particularly a circuit judgeship became vacant while I was on vacation in Florida. Beauchamp called me and told me about it, and he said, "I want to appoint this fellow." I said, you go right ahead and appoint him. It was Astor Hogg, who made a great circuit 00:14:00judge and was later elected to the Court of Appeals. But we never had any quarrels about anything when I went out of the state. He took over and ran things just as I would have run 'em, except that occasionally he would have problems and he'd call me and talk to me about 'em.

KLEBER: Did you ever think of promoting Doc Beauchamp for governor of Kentucky?

WETHERBY: Well, we got into quite a discussion about who we would support to succeed me. Clements and Beauchamp and two or three of our close political friends would talk about who would run, and most of 'em did not think Beauchamp would--could run and beat Chandler, , uh, although some of Beauchamp's friends were very insistent that he should run. We finally agreed to take a list--each 00:15:00of us would make a list of those we thought might be available to run and we'd get together. Well, the three of us sat down one night at the mansion: Clements, Beauchamp and myself, and we eliminated, one by one. Finally came to Bert Combs, who was a judge of the Court of Appeals. We all three agreed that he should run. As our candidate, we'd all support him. I put in a call for, uh, Combs, who was staying in Lexington at the time, asked him to come to the mansion. He came down, and the three of us propositioned him about running, and that's the way we developed the candidate in that 1955 race.

KLEBER: Do you think Doc Beauchamp was disappointed that he was not--

WETHERBY: He was. He was, but he never quarreled and never said a word about 00:16:00it until we got beat. Then he--(laughs)--he let his hair down with me a little bit and he said, "I think I'd have run a better race than Combs."

KLEBER: And--and, but I--the reason then you selected Combs was you thought he would run the strongest race against--

WETHERBY: Against Chandler. He came from eastern Kentucky. He had run a terrific race up there. Well, as a matter of fact, he beat a former governor and former judge of the Court of Appeals for the Court of Appeals seat. He had beat, uh, former Governor Willis for the position on the Court of Appeals. I had appointed him to it, then he ran for it. And he beat, uh, Willis, who had run, to come back to the Court of Appeals.

KLEBER: Could you recall any of the other names that were on that list of--

WETHERBY: Yes, there was Beauchamp, and there was, uh, Lewis Cox. And Bill Curlin. Rumsey Taylor. Smith Broadbent. That's all that I can think of at 00:17:00this time. But I think we had about twelve names.

KLEBER: Let me ask you this question and, uh, and it may be difficult to try to draw a comparison on this. Once you were elected governor, and inaugurated in December 1951, did you find that your power as governor had increased? In other words, would--did you feel you were in a stronger position now that you were governor in your own right, rather than governor by, uh, being placed there by what happened to Clements?

WETHERBY: Well, I think I felt that I had a little bit stronger position because lots of members of the legislature had run at the same time I had, and I had supported quite a few of those as I campaigned. And, uh, I had more 00:18:00friends, I felt, in the legislature than I had when I was lieutenant governor and succeeded as governor. And, uh, I think the reason I had more, and felt that I had stronger support in the house and the senate was the fact that I had become acquainted with 'em as we campaigned, and as I say, supported some of 'em in their counties as we went through the campaign.

KLEBER: Well, following on that question, uh, as soon as you became governor a month later, the--the general assembly came into session and you had to lead that. Did you feel stronger in leading that general assembly than you had with the extraordinary session the previous year?

WETHERBY: Yes, I did because of the fact that I had more friends in there and also they knew what I was planning on because I had discussed it in the 00:19:00campaign. They knew that I was planning certain programs and they were friendly towards those programs because they knew in advance what I was talking about.

KLEBER: Now in coming to that 1952 general assembly, uh, how did you go about planning the recommendations you were gonna submit to the general assembly?

WETHERBY: Well, I, uh, I first, of course, prepared my budget that I was gonna submit to the legislature, and, uh, called in all of the leadership, both the Democrats and Republicans and told them about it before I appeared before the legislature. Then I submitted the budget and I later outlined, in my message to the legislature, certain programs that I was proposing. And, uh, I prepared the 00:20:00message to the legislature on the budget and the various programs that I was proposing.

KLEBER: So you relied a great deal upon the cabinet members in planning this--these proposals to the general assembly?

WETHERBY: That--I--is a true statement. I, I advised with the cabinet members. I relied on several professional outsiders in helping me prepare the programs affecting various agencies. For instance, on the Youth Authority, on the mental health picture, and those things, I advised with some professionals about the approach to make and the kind of legislation that we needed to implement those kind of programs.

KLEBER: What about, uh, political figures throughout the state? Did you 00:21:00consult them much in planning your programs?

WETHERBY: No, not, not very much. I, uh, as I say, I consulted the leadership of the house and the senate and professionals on the various subjects; and of course, the lieutenant governor. I consulted with Beauchamp about all of the programs.

KLEBER: Did you consult with, uh, Senator Clements at all in these proposals?

WETHERBY: I don't recall that I did, but I'm sure I did. He would come down occasionally, and I'd visit with him and tell him what we were gonna do. And, uh, ask him what he would think about various things, but I did not ask his advice about which programs to submit. I'd already planned what I was--I'd done that all during the campaign.

KLEBER: You pretty much were trying to, to keep Senator Clements informed and then draw upon his experience?

WETHERBY: That's right. Draw upon his experience and have his help, uh, if we ran into problems because, uh--and in addition to that, he was in Washington as a senator and was very close to the leadership of the Senate and could help us get things for Kentucky that we might need. So I kept in close touch with him, and, uh, he would come down to visit and when he did, we would talk about the various things that I was doing, and he would tell me what they were doing.

KLEBER: In the 1952 general assembly, uh, was it overwhelmingly Democratic?

WETHERBY: Yes, yeah.

KLEBER: Were there other elements, uh, outside of the Democratic organization in that general assembly? In other words, were there those who might be called Chandler Democrats in it or--and--

WETHERBY: Not in--not in the '52 session, there weren't--was not. But in the '54 session, there was. In the '52 session, there were other influences that 00:23:00were working in that session. For instance, the labor leaders, they were working, and, uh, trying to do things in there. Uh, the--then we got into a real battle-royal between the truckers and the railroads in that session, and they were both trying to do things in there that, uh, we did not agree with, and there were--those influences. But there was no political organization fighting us in the '52 session.

KLEBER: You mentioned the coal interest, and their influence in, uh, this 1952 general assembly. In that respect, I know that, that you, that you had a, a great interest in, uh, in strip mining and, and some laws to, to prevent strip mining. Can you tell me how you got this interest originally, and then how that 00:24:00developed in the 1952 assembly?

WETHERBY: Well, in 1950, I was chairman of the Legislative Research Commission by designation of the governor. And we started exploring the strip mine situation in Kentucky, and I took a group of legislators down to west Kentucky and a group up to eastern Kentucky and showed 'em what strip mining was doing. And we talked about legislation, but we never, at that time, got the project organized. But when I became acting governor, we went all out to pass a bill to regulate strip mining. 'Course the strip mining in Kentucky is a hard thing to 00:25:00picture, because you have two different kinds of strip mining. You have the flat land in west Kentucky and the mountain land in east Kentucky. So we had a battle-royal in the 1952 session over the bill which we had prepared and had submitted to the legislature. And the coal mining group and the coal operators, the mine operators, then they got the hollers and they got a good combine together and beat us in the legislature. I told 'em, this is 1952, the night they beat us in the legislature, I said that will be Bill Number One in 1954 and we'll pass it. So, my majority leader in the senate in 1954, Richard Moloney of 00:26:00Lexington, introduced Senate Bill No. 1 which was a bill to regulate strip mining. That bill had been prepared during the hearings that the Legislative Research Commission had between '52 and '54. It was Senate Bill 1, we passed it. By the hardest, but we passed it. And we had a good control bill--a bill to control strip mining. However, when Chandler ran in 1955, he made a deal with the operators to modify that bill, and did modify it so that he took all the teeth out of it. Then it became a political football from '54 and the next 00:27:00real battle was under the Breathitt administration. I was a member of the state senate. I was chairman of a committee to conduct hearings on redoing the strip mine legislation. We did and we passed a new control for strip mining under the Breathitt administration, in 1966.

KLEBER: How do you view the strip mining in Kentucky today?

WETHERBY: I think it's better--it's under better control than it's been in quite some time. However, it's, uh--the regulation is hard to work out because 00:28:00of the fact since then the federal government has passed some legislation. And the federal government now has issued regulations and the state has issued regulations and there's a conflict between 'em so they're scrapping all the time about it.

KLEBER: Did the coal money, uh, work actively against you? In other words, did you, uh, did you feel that, that, uh, they were undermining you and that you, you had to fight with them all the time?

WETHERBY: In my fight for the strip mine legislation--yes, indeed. As a matter of fact, a friend of mine called me at the mansion one night at 2:30, and told me, he said, "You better come down to the hotel." We were gonna vote the next morning on the strip mine legislation in the senate. He said, "You better come 00:29:00down to the hotel." He said, "The coal people have taken one of your key votes," and we only had one or two to spare. And I said, what do you mean? He said, "Oh, they have bought one of your voters, that was supporting your strip mine legislation." Said, "You better come down here and stop him." I went down there, got a hold of him. I said I understand that you have sold out to the coal operators. "Oh, Governor, I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't do that." I said, well, I have it on pretty reliable source that they offered you a mine up there if you would vote against my bill. He said, "Governor, Governor, don't, don't accuse me of that." I said, I'm not gonna accuse you of it, but if you vote against that bill in the morning, I'm going right before the grand jury and accuse you of it, right here in Franklin County. "You won't have to do that. You won't have to do that." Well, the next day, he backed off; he did not vote 00:30:00for my bill, but he did not vote against it. And we passed it.

KLEBER: So the coal--did they ever threaten you, the coal interests? Saying like, for example, uh, we're gonna withhold money from the Democratic Party or were--

WETHERBY: No, I never did receive any of those kind of threats.

KLEBER: In other words, their pressure was on people--

WETHERBY: They were, they were afraid to make those kind of threats to me.

KLEBER: But they were, they were pressuring the, the legislators?

WETHERBY: That's right. They were pressuring them, and they were trying to buy 'em. They were doing everything under the sun with 'em, but, uh, I had some strong friends in the senate, and I had some very able people. I, uh, I had Dick Moloney, as I mentioned, who was my floor leader and he had introduced the bill. He had prepared well for the hearings on it. Then he had a perfect witness, and that was Henry Ward, who was the commissioner of conservation, and 00:31:00Henry came up as a witness, and he had the facts about what it would cost the coal operators to, uh, restore the land as we had proposed in our bill, and he discounted all of the coal operators' testimony.

KLEBER: I assume at that time that John L. Lewis was still president of the United Mine Workers. Did you know John L. Lewis and did the United Mine Workers take a stand on this position?

WETHERBY: I knew John L. Lewis and, uh, I went to see him in 1951, when I was running for governor. I went to see him in Washington, and talked to him about the race, and told him that I would do everything in my power to see that we had, uh, peace in the coal fields in Kentucky. And he said, "That's all I ask." 00:32:00And he never, at any time got involved in our strip mining legislation that I knew of.

KLEBER: So as far as you know, the United Mine Workers did not put themselves on record as favoring or opposing the strip mine bill?

WETHERBY: They did not, and as a matter of fact, uh, I do not believe, uh, that they did anything to assist in the fight on strip mining. Because Sam Caddy was the local leader, uh, of the mine workers in Kentucky, the big end of it, and he was very friendly to my administration.

KLEBER: You know, even today down in a place like Harlan County, it's still pretty bad for coal workers, coal miners. What was your feeling back then as how the coal miners were being treated by the, uh, by the coal operators and owners?

WETHERBY: Well, when, when the operators would--I mean, when the, uh, mine workers would try to organize, the operators would try to intimidate 'em. Uh, I 00:33:00promised all of 'em, both sides, that there would not be any disorder there while I was governor, if I could prevent it. And that I would send the state police in, not to take sides, but to preserve order during their strikes, and I did at one time, uh, send some of 'em into the coal fields to preserve order. I was accused of trying to be a strikebreaker, but, uh, I was not. I was trying to preserve order and that's what we did.

KLEBER: Now when they accused you of trying to be a strikebreaker, did this upset you or did you--were you mad about this situation?

WETHERBY: No, it didn't upset me. Uh, I mean, it did make me mad, but, uh, it didn't upset me. Uh, but we had to do something to preserve order up there because they were blas--blasting bridges and, uh, burning trestles and things 00:34:00like that. And we had to send the police up there to stop that kind of business. And I did send 'em there. I never did regret it.

KLEBER: Was that the first time the state police had been used in that manner?

WETHERBY: I think it was. And, uh, that's the reason they accused me of being a strikebreaker by sending the police up there.

KLEBER: Did you have a, a feeling of one way or the other for or against the coal operators in all this operation?

WETHERBY: Never, never did have any feelings against 'em except when they would come in and testify on our hearings on the bill, and the intimidation that they would exert on the members of the legislature. I have felt upset about that, but I never did, uh, resent 'em fighting their side of the battle. I thought they had a right to. And they had a right to be heard.

KLEBER: Uh, did you feel that, they, uh, the pressure they used down in those 00:35:00coal fields against the union, let's say, and in order to keep it non-unionized, would--did you have any feeling on this?

WETHERBY: No, I, I felt that all of 'em had a right to assemble, and had a right to be heard, and had a perfect right to present their side of the picture.

KLEBER: Uh, what about mine safety at that time? Did this ever occur to you, to perhaps push mine safety laws?

WETHERBY: Yes. Uh, and we had a real good head of our mining division, and I consulted with him, and he was a miner and had--he knew the ropes, and he advised me about what steps they were taking the department, and the inspectors about the safety programs. We had, uh, very few accidents in the mines during 00:36:00my administration, so it did not become much of an issue.

KLEBER: Do you feel you had a, a lot of, uh, political support down in the mountain counties: far eastern Kentucky? Or was that your area? Did you feel at ease with that area?

KLEBER: Yes, I did, but, uh, I did not have too much support there. I, uh, through Bert Combs, I, I had a fine relationship there because Bert had run--at the same time I had run, he had run for the Court of Appeals and we were very friendly. And, uh, he and I both spoke at the big Labor Day celebration of the mine workers in 1951 at Pikeville. They used to have, on Labor Day, they'd have a big rally of all of the miners in eastern Kentucky, and they'd invited me down in the campaign to speak to them, and I did. And Bert Combs spoke from the same 00:37:00platform with me. And, uh, that group, led by, uh, Sam Caddy, helped me in the campaign, and in that area I did get some support.

KLEBER: From, from the union?

WETHERBY: From the union, yes.

KLEBER: Would you call yourself a union man, when you were governor?

WETHERBY: No, I would not. Uh, I was a middle-of-the-road man when it came to the labor and management problems. I, uh, was not a labor man, I was not a, an organization man. I was strictly down the middle of the road, trying to develop a better relation in Kentucky.

KLEBER: Uh, did you feel that it was politically important to take this middle-of-the-road position or--

WETHERBY: No, I didn't, I did not, but I did not want the union to run me and I 00:38:00did not want the management to run me. And, uh, I, uh, just felt it was best for the state and best for me to keep out of their scraps.

KLEBER: Looking back more than twenty years on that, do you think that was the right position to take?

WETHERBY: I do. And I think that, uh, that's the right position for a leader of our state to take today, and always. Because, uh, the, uh, if you take any other position, if you support the labor crowd outright, then labor's gonna take over your government. If you support the management outright, then you've got the same problem on that side.

KLEBER: Uh, perhaps we could look at this 1952 general assembly and, and look at some of the, uh, the proposals you made, and as we go through these, maybe you could tell me the reason behind them--

WETHERBY: Um-hm.

KLEBER: --what happened to that--those proposals.

WETHERBY: All right.

KLEBER: Uh, let's take this--what I think is a very important one and I'm sure you do too--the fact that you proposed a new registration and purgation act, and this, you said, if it were enacted would--put confidence in the integrity of the ballot.

WETHERBY: That's right.

KLEBER: Can we talk about that for a little while and--

WETHERBY: Yes, I had had a committee headed by, uh, Harris W. Coleman, who was a Republican county attorney in years past in Jefferson County. He was the head of a committee that worked on registration and purgation under our Legislative Research Commission. And he and a professor at the University of Kentucky, a young lady--and I cannot think of her name offhand--they worked on a registration and purgation law and brought me one and I supported it. And, uh, 00:40:00I thought it was important because everyone was talking at that time, and worried about elections being stolen and people voting eight and ten times and things like that, and I thought to restore the confidence in the election procedure we needed a registration and purgation law, such as we had had in Jefferson County at that time.

KLEBER: Now you've already said that Doc Beauchamp opposed you on this--

WETHERBY: No, not--not on that part of it. He opposed me on the signature portion of it.

KLEBER: Okay. Can you tell me about that? Now what's the--what's the difference there?

WETHERBY: Well, that was under the old registration and purgation law. It provided that everyone who voted would have to sign the voter registration list with his full name and then the officers, election officers, could compare that 00:41:00signature to the one that he had made when he registered. In other words, under our law--our proposed law, everyone was to register in Kentucky to vote, prior to the election day. Then when they went to the polls to vote on election day, they would have to sign their name, and they'd--then the election officer would compare that to the signature on the registration book, so that you could avoid the duplication. And of course, Beauchamp said--well, he had lots of reasons, but his sound argument, the one that made more sense than any was, well, a lot of our people can't write. So that was his main argument. But of course, in Beauchamp's county years before, they had been accused of voting people out of 00:42:00Tennessee, even in primaries, and that was in the Rhea-Chandler race.

KLEBER: Well, now, I hear even today that in some places, they still vote the graveyard, and, uh, and I suppose this would be a way that some political figures might keep themselves in power, particularly on local levels, and courthouses, and small towns. Did you have a lot of opposition from this element?

WETHERBY: Oh yeah, yes we had opposition, and particularly from, uh, the rural counties. We had opposition, uh, on the basis that the people would not go to the polls and sign their name, in the rural areas. I didn't believe that because I had seen the registration and purgation law operate in Jefferson County all my lifetime in politics. So I knew that the people wouldn't resent it once we passed it. And we finally passed it and it is the law now and we do 00:43:00have a model registration law in Kentucky.

KLEBER: Do you think it's, uh, been greatly successful over the years?

WETHERBY: I think it has been. So much so, that it's been amended, uh, in recent years to the point where everyone now has to have a voter registration card to carry with 'em so when they go to the polls, they'll have an identification card to show that they're entitled to vote, that they have been registered, that they're entitled to vote. And I think it's been very helpful.

[Tape 1, side 1 ends; tape 1, side 2 begins.]

KLEBER: I would think it--certainly it seems to have returned integrity to the ballot.

WETHERBY: It has. It has. And you have very few contests now on the basis that people have voted as you mentioned, the cemetery or they voted the dead people or that they have not had a legitimate voter in the polls. Now, uh, 00:44:00'course one thing in the model registration law provides for purgation. If someone does not vote for two years, their name comes off of the books. So they have to be on the books to vote. And it has restored the integrity to the ballot.

KLEBER: Now before this law was passed, was there anything that said that if you did not vote in two years you were purged from the--

WETHERBY: No, no. No, no. That's all in the registration and purgation law that we passed.

KLEBER: Now a, uh, a second thing you proposed to the general assembly in 1952 was for a child welfare code which would re-codify the laws pertaining to children and establish a state youth authority. Can you tell me the origins of this and what happened?

WETHERBY: That's right. Well, I had been the judge of the juvenile court in Jefferson County, before I became lieutenant governor, and I saw the problems 00:45:00dealing with the youth of Kentucky. We had no statewide, uh, set up for the juveniles in Kentucky. So I proposed that we study and develop a code for the children of Kentucky and we had a committee that worked on that for two whole years to develop such a code, and to set up a youth authority. And we did, and under that youth authority, any county judge who had a child before him that he did not have any provision to take care of, could commit that child to the youth authority, and they would make plans for the child either through a foster home 00:46:00or through one of the state welfare institutions.

KLEBER: Was this your idea originally, to enact this legislation?

WETHERBY: Yes. Yes, it was my idea and I had the, uh, support of several people who were professionals in the field because I had worked with 'em when I was juvenile court judge. And I had the--one of the psychiatrists, Dr. Ackerley; I had the professor up at the University of Kentucky. I had Miss Tachau, who was a social worker and a leader in Jefferson County and Louisville, and was very active with the mental health association and the Community Chest, uh, in Louisville.

KLEBER: Do you think this has been a, a very beneficial piece of legislation?

WETHERBY: Well, it was until Chandler was elected and he repealed it. (laughs)

KLEBER: Uh, one of the things I keep hearing great things about your administration was the interest that you had in mental health. And every--people I've talked to about your administration mention this time and time again. And, uh, basically, you asked for many things, but one thing you asked for was a mental health department separate from the penal institutions.

WETHERBY: Separate from the welfare department. The welfare department of that time, had the penal institutions, had the mental health programs, it had everything under the sun in it. So I wanted to take the mental health section out of the welfare department and create a department for the control of the mental institutions and the operation of the whole mental health program. And I selected a fine psychiatrist to head that department and he worked with me on 00:48:00the legislation and all the psychiatrists that I knew at that time helped me: Dr. Ackerley, Doctor, uh--one of the--Dr. Billy Keller, and then Dr. Frank Gaines. So after we passed the legislation, I asked that group of psychiatrists to pick me one who could administer the department and run it properly. They recommended Dr. Frank Gaines and I appointed him as the commissioner of mental health, under the new department. And it was on its own and had its own proper--appropriation.

KLEBER: What were the mental hospitals like, before he took over?

WETHERBY: They were just places where they threw people in 'em and they just 00:49:00left 'em there, and they were horrible. When Dr. Gaines took over, he came up with a program for medication and to take the people out of the hospitals and return 'em to their homes if they were capable of going home. And he did a remarkable job with it and in the first year or so, you could just see a complete change. And the relatives of the people who were in the institution would call me and tell me how much better they were under Dr. Gaines.

[End of interview.]