Interview with Lawrence W. Wetherby, April 25, 1980

 KLEBER: The, uh, following is a spontaneous and unrehearsed interview with former governor Lawrence W. Wetherby of Kentucky. The interview was made in Governor Wetherby's home in Frankfort, Kentucky on Friday, April 25, 1980 by John Kleber, Department of History, Morehead State University. Governor Wetherby, I'd like to ask you about the role that you played as the National Democratic Committeeman from 1952 to 1956. Can you tell me how you received this position and what were your responsibilities in that position?

WETHERBY: I was named as the national committeeman from Kentucky by the Democratic Party in convention in 1952. I succeeded Governor Clements who had been the national committeeman during his term as governor. As the national committeeman, I attended the meetings of the committee through the next four years. During that period of time, in 1952, I headed the delegation to the 00:01:00national convention at which time we attempted to nominate Senator Barkley as president. He had been vice president under Truman and we thought that he would like to be named as the Democratic nominee for the presidency. We organized our state pretty well, and went to Chicago for the purpose of nominating Barkley. I had prepared nominating speech, and everything was going along fine and we were picking up delegates from every state around us and throughout the United States. And on the day before the nominations were to take place, Barkley 00:02:00called Senator Clements and me over to his suite in the Blackstone Hotel and told us that he was not a candidate. We could not understand why, and he finally told us that he had had a breakfast meeting with the labor organizations' representatives that morning, and they had declined to support him. So he said, "Therefore, I will not be a candidate." I said, "Well, Senator I 've already had a speech prepared to nominate you and I expect to do it." And he just forbid me to do it. So as a result when we went back to the convention the next day for the nomination speeches, I had my speech ready but he still forbid me to make it. So I told a lot of the folks that we had 00:03:00contacted to support Barkley what had happened. One of 'em, Senator Hennings from Missouri, who had agreed to deliver his votes to us for Barkley, said, "Well, he hasn't forbidden me from nominating him, and I'm gonna nominate him." I said, "That'll be great," (laughs) I said, "but I cannot. He just forbid me to do it and told me not to attempt to do it. So I'm just telling you what his reaction was." He said, "He can't control me. I'm gonna nominate him." And he did, and we had, uh, a good demonstration for him when Senator Hennings nominated him. Then--(coughs)--uh, Senator Barkley went to the platform and withdrew his name as a nominee. Then he made a speech to the convention that 00:04:00was probably one of the greatest speeches ever made at a Democratic convention. And they were about to nominate him by acclamation until he stopped them. But, uh, everyone thought that he had made the finest speech they'd ever heard at a Democratic convention.

KLEBER: Did you know he was going to deliver that speech before he did?

WETHERBY: I did not. As a matter of fact, uh, I was kind of ducking him--(laughs)--because I was conniving with, uh, Hennings to nominate him after he had forbidden me to nominate him and so I was kind of ducking Barkley and had no idea that he was gonna make that speech.

KLEBER: Now you wrote a nomination speech. Did Hennings deliver your nomination speech?

WETHERBY: No, he wrote, wrote one of his own. But I had given him mine to tell him the things that I was gonna say, and he picked out some of 'em that were 00:05:00familiar to him. Mine was more or less of our relationship and how Kentucky felt about Barkley.

KLEBER: In nineteen, uh, fifty-two, you then supported Adlai Stevenson for the presidency--

WETHERBY: Yes.

KLEBER: --and campaigned for Adlai Stevenson.

WETHERBY: Right.

KLEBER: Uh, you were, uh, also Democratic National Committeeman at the convention in 1956.

WETHERBY: Right.

KLEBER: Did you go to that '56 convention committed to Stevenson?

WETHERBY: No. I went there--we went there uncommitted, but with a problem of Chandler wanting to get the nomination and fighting Stevenson. So I took the position that I had been for Stevenson in seven--'52, had led his campaign fight in Kentucky, and carried Kentucky by seven hundred votes for Stevenson. So I was still for Stevenson and would not participate in the demonstration for 00:06:00Chandler when he was nominated by Joe Leary in the '56 convention.

KLEBER: Was Chandler serious about being nominated in '56 for the presidency?

WETHERBY: What did you say?

KLEBER: Was he serious about it or was he--

WETHERBY: Oh, yeah. Yes, he was serious and kept telling us, the members of the Kentucky delegation, how many votes he had. He kept claiming he had certain commitments which we did not believe and which turned out we were correct and he was incorrect. He finally wound up with about five votes from delegates: some from Mississippi and one or two from other places in the country.

KLEBER: How did the Kentucky contingent vote on the, uh, nomination?

WETHERBY: They, uh, split up and some of 'em voted for Chandler, but most of 00:07:00'em voted for Stevenson. And in, in the final vote, they voted unanimously for Stevenson. (coughs)

KLEBER: Uh, when you were at that 1956 convention, did you work actively for Stevenson's nomination?

WETHERBY: Yes, I did and I had been closely associated with Stevenson since he and I both served as governors. He and I were desk-mates in the governors' conference when he was governor of Illinois and I was governor of Kentucky. And we had become closely associated and I had worked vigorously for him in '52 and I continued to work for him in '56.

KLEBER: Some people felt Adlai Stevenson was too much of an intellectual, an egghead, couldn't relate to the common people. What was your impression of Stevenson?

WETHERBY: That, that was the whole trouble. He talked over the heads of the people. He, uh, his, uh, speeches were just tremendous and I have recordings of 00:08:00several of 'em. But they were all intellectual speeches and he never could get down to the level of the average voter.

KLEBER: Now you two were governors of neighboring states, very different kinds of personality I'd think. In--you were more extroverted; he was more introverted. Did you-all ever talk about your styles of politicking?

WETHERBY: Yes, as a matter of fact, in 1952 when he came to Kentucky to speak in his campaign, I told him, I said, "Get down to the level and talk to these people." I said, uh, "That's what we do in Kentucky and that gets the votes." I said, uh, "You're just talking over their head, Adlai. And get down and, uh, level with 'em." I also told him the same thing in '56 when he came to Kentucky.

KLEBER: Did you find him to be a warm man, as a human being, or--

WETHERBY: He was when you knew him. But to the average person, he was aloof. But when you knew Adlai, he was a warm person and a person that would--you could reason with about issues. In the governors' conference, he and I would have discussions about different subjects and, uh, we would debate 'em before we voted in the conference and we would argue them out between ourselves. But, uh, and he was real genuinely interested in people. But he never did learn how to reach the average common man.

KLEBER: Did you really believe, in 1956 at the nominating convention, that Stevenson could go on to beat Eisenhower?

WETHERBY: I felt that if anyone could, that Stevenson could. And Eisenhower had had some, uh, troubles and had an operation, and I felt that if anyone could beat him, Stevenson could. But of course then the Middle East blow-up came and there was no chance to beat Eisenhower.

KLEBER: You didn't think seriously then of any other Democrat around at that time to run for the party?

WETHERBY: No, I did not. I did not know of anyone in our party that had a chance to beat Eisenhower.

KLEBER: Let me, uh--(Wetherby coughs)--turn to another topic, and that is the, uh, famous decision in 1954 of Brown vs. Topeka Board of Education that struck down school segregation. I'd like to talk about segregation as it existed in Kentucky during your term as governor. Can you tell me how extensive it was? How it was legally upheld, and how it was complied with?

KLEBER: It was, uh, well, all of the schools of Kentucky were segregated and were operating under the then decision of the court of, of the Supreme Court, which had held that you could have education but it must be equal. So we had black schools and we had white schools. And they were completely segregated. No black students went to white schools. (coughs) And that was true up until the decision in the Brown case, and then when the Supreme Court made the decision in that case, the, uh, press boys ran to me and read to me what had come over the Associated Press wires about the decision, and they said, "What are you gonna do about this?" I said, "Well, that's the law of the land, now, 00:12:00and we're gonna abide by it." They said, "Well, you, you can't do that in Kentucky." I said, "Well, we're gonna do it, because that is the law of the land; I'm a lawyer, I'm the chief executive and it's up to me to lead us into the following of that decision because that is the law of the land." "Well, what are you gonna do?" I said, "Well, the first thing I'm gonna do, I'm gonna appoint a committee to work with the various local boards of education to implement the decision and to see that the climate is made for the integration of the schools over the state." I said, "Another thing we can do is sell the local boards, that it will be less expensive under this decision than it was under the separate-but-equal decision. And we can gradually integrate all of 00:13:00the schools within the state."

KLEBER: And you went on to appoint that board. Do you recall who was appointed to the board?

WETHERBY: Well, I remember one particularly, uh, was Allan Trout who was the chief representative of the Courier-Journal and Times in Frankfort Bureau, uh, and the press corps. And he was then the president of the Frankfort Press Corps. I put him on it. I put the Superintendent of Public Instruction on it, and I put, uh, two or three outstanding citizens throughout the state, and asked 'em--I had a hard time finding enough people that would agree to serve on such a committee. But they did organize and they met with various school boards that were having trouble in implementing the decision. But they were in an advisory 00:14:00capacity and they did an excellent job.

KLEBER: Now they advised two of the school boards?

WETHERBY: The school boards. When a school board had trouble in a community of seven, the decision that they had to abide by, this committee would go and meet with 'em and meet with the parent-teachers groups and explain what they were trying to do and what we were trying to do. And they were very helpful in doing it.

KLEBER: How long did this board stay in existence?

WETHERBY: It stayed in existence for about two years, and they reported to me and reported to the, uh, Department of Education regularly.

KLEBER: You said you had trouble getting people on the board. Why was that?

WETHERBY: They hesitated to serve in the communities, from their communities, because of the friction that the decision had brought about. For instance, I think I've told you this, I don't know whether it's in any of our tapes or not, 00:15:00but right after my press conference about the decision, and I said, "That's the law of the land; we're gonna abide by it," when the press boys left my executive secretary, Ed Farris, said, "Governor, you don't mean that, do you?" And I said, "I certainly do." He said, "You mean the Negroes are going to school with the white children down in Adair County? I said "Yeah." He said, "They'll tar and feather you if you ever try that." That was one of the first counties that integrated.

KLEBER: That's an interesting--(Wetherby coughs)--point. The people who surrounded you, your advisors and friends, must have been outspoken on this issue. Were most of them against integration?

WETHERBY: Most of 'em were against it, yes. And most of 'em said I had made a mistake by taking the strong position I took. As a matter of fact, I was then, at that time, the chairman of the southern governors', uh, organization. And they immediately, those governors started calling me about what I had done. I 00:16:00had destroyed them. So I had to have a meeting, called a special meeting of the board of all the southern governors and talked to 'em about what position I had taken. I had the strong support of a couple of governors and as a result of that meeting and--I ran the thing-- and discussing it fully, they re-elected me as chairman the next year.

KLEBER: Who, who were the two governors that supported you strongly?

WETHERBY: Strongly, uh, support came from Frank Clement in Tennessee and Gene--not Gene Talmadge, but Governor Talmadge who was the son of old Gene.

KLEBER: Of Georg--.

WETHERBY: Herman.

KLEBER: Herman Talmadge.

WETHERBY: Herman Talmadge of Georgia.

KLEBER: Did any of the others treat--tend to support you or just those two?

WETHERBY: Those two supported me in our discussions in the governors' conference.

KLEBER: Now would it have been much easier for you in the state of Kentucky, 00:17:00to have come out against the Brown decision?

WETHERBY: It would have been much easier and probably politically better had I said, well, that's their decision. Let them enforce it. But, uh, I thought that having practiced law and been a lawyer, that the Supreme Court spoke, then it was up to us and it was up to me as chief executive to try to enforce the law.

KLEBER: How did you personally feel about the decision?

WETHERBY: 'Course I, I thought it was just and right, and I had, uh, as lieutenant governor, I had gone on the floor of the house of representatives during Clements' administration to help pass an amendment to the Day Law to allow the blacks to go to school at the University of Kentucky. They were prohibited from going to school there. Well, we amended that law twice. First, 00:18:00to allow 'em on the level of the professional level: nurses and doctors to attend white schools. Then the second crack we took at it, we just opened it wide open so that the blacks could go to school at the university and at the other schools in Kentucky.

KLEBER: Do you recall when that was?

WETHERBY: That was in the 1954 s--no, that was in the, uh, 1950 session of the legislature.

KLEBER: '50 session. According to Plessy vs. Ferguson that you referred to, they had to be separate and equal--

WETHERBY: That's right.

KLEBER: --for public education. Was Kentucky's education separate and equal?

WETHERBY: Yes, it was. I don't know that it was equal, but it was separate, and they had black schools.

KLEBER: Yeah, that's--I wonder about how the equality of it--how good were black schools in Kentucky?

WETHERBY: I don't think they were nearly as good as the white schools. But there was a medium ground. There was a black school at Simpsonville which was a good educational institution. And high school students could go to that school if their county would pay their tuition. So that school was a good educational organization.

KLEBER: You mean this school would pick black students from all over the state?

WETHERBY: That's right, from all over the state, at the high school level. They--it was a boarding school. And some of the black leaders of the state in subsequent years were graduates of that school at Simpsonville.

KLEBER: But on the whole, black education was probably below the white education?

WETHERBY: Much, much below, bound to have been.

KLEBER: And then you say this was a costly thing to maintain for the state?

WETHERBY: Sure it was because you have to have a duplicate school. In any area where there were a lot of black students, they'd have to have a black school. (coughs) And as a result, their educational opportunity was not equal to the white school.

KLEBER: Do you think that idea of saving the state money did anything to do away with segregated schools in Kentucky? Was it an important factor?

WETHERBY: I think it did. Uh, I think the, uh, that had some influence and when our committee would talk to the local boards, they would point that out, and I think that helped sell it to some of the boards, the county boards throughout the state.

KLEBER: 'Course integration of schools is only one part of what happened in Brown vs. Topeka Board. It opened up integration in just about every aspect of life.

WETHERBY: That's right.

KLEBER: Now how did you feel about this, and did you recognize that this was 00:21:00going to come in 1954?

WETHERBY: Yes, I did and, uh, as a matter of fact, I had it, uh, I had to face it head on, on two or three occasions while I was governor. For instance, some of the blacks wanted to eat in the cafeteria that we had opened in the Capitol Annex, and when they came in there, the manager of the Annex called me and said, "A bunch of blacks over here wanna eat. What should I do?" I said, "Let 'em in. That's what we're all supposed to do. We're supposed to abide by the law." So we opened the cafeteria. The next thing we had was the parks situation. The blacks wanted to--'course they were testing us--they'd send a group around to a park and try to register and go in the park and, uh, get rooms, and the managers would all call and say, "What should we do? What should we do?" Well, 00:22:00I had to make the decision. I made it that we'd open 'em up. So as a result of that, we had, had--were confronted with it at the cafeteria; then we were confronted with it at the parks. Then subsequent to that, we had--when I was in the state senate after having served as governor, we had the open housing legislation and I supported it and we passed an open housing bill in the state senate.

KLEBER: What made you take this rather liberal position on segrega--on segregation, against it and in favor of integration? Is it in your background somewhere?

WETHERBY: It was in my background, yes. When I was just a kiddo, my daddy was a country doctor, and he waited on the blacks just as well as he did the whites. In addition to that, when I was just a real youngster, we had a black boy who 00:23:00took care of us. He was our nursemaid, so to speak. Took care of--and I was the youngest, so, uh, he was just like a member of the family to me. And I had had that, uh, uh, training as a youngster, and went right through with it. I never had any problem with the blacks. And when I was elected lieutenant governor, we had a fine black man who was the head of the Kentucky State University, and we were discussing their problems and the Day Law, and Senator Clements, who was then governor, asked me if I had any objection to him inviting the president of Kentucky State University over to eat lunch with us at the 00:24:00mansion. I said, not a bit. So the three of us sat down and ate lunch together in the mansion. I guess that was the first black man who had ever eaten at the governor's table.

KLEBER: How many blacks did you have in your administration?

WETHERBY: I never could, uh, tell exactly. I, uh, I appointed 'em wherever there was vacancy that I thought they could qualify for. Uh, I had several of 'em working for me and quite a--and I had a couple working for me at the mansion. Uh they were taking care of the mansion. I mean, other than inmates, we had trusties. Quite a few of those were blacks, but then we hired a black couple to--for our own employees at the mansion.

KLEBER: But there would have been no-one, of course, in your cabinet, or head 00:25:00of--in high administrative positions? That almost was not feasible at the time, was it?

WETHERBY: No, it was not, and then of course I had, uh, most of my cabinet level people were people I'd inherited from the Clements administration, and I'd worked with as lieutenant governor and I did not replace any of those except when one of 'em got in trouble.

KLEBER: How about blacks voting in the state of Kentucky? Uh, was there much discrimination against them voting at your time?

WETHERBY: There had been, but after this, I don't think there was any.

KLEBER: Not during your years as governor?

WETHERBY: No, not during my term.

KLEBER: You didn't hear of blacks protesting that they were deprived of the right to vote?

WETHERBY: Never did.

KLEBER: What about, uh, the, the blacks supporting you politically for your, your very liberal stand on this? Did you ever see any of this?

WETHERBY: I never did see it.

KLEBER: Didn't see it.

WETHERBY: Matter of fact, when I ran for the United States Senate in '56, after 00:26:00Barkley's death, uh, I did not do well in the black community in Jefferson County.

KLEBER: How do you explain that?

WETHERBY: I did not try to capitalize on it, and, uh, I just couldn't understand it. Matter of fact, I couldn't understand how I lost Jefferson County as badly as I did.

KLEBER: Still can't understand it?

WETHERBY: And I still can't understand it.

KLEBER: Um, the people around you, in your administration on this, this decision to integrate, uh, they--those people must have been very, very upset by all of this going on. Can you recall specific examples of people who were upset with you?

WETHERBY: Oh, yes, yes. Several of 'em--(laughs)--came in and talked to me about it, particularly when I told 'em about the parks. Several of 'em in the parks department were upset and we had a cabinet meeting one time and, uh, shortly after we had opened the parks--'course Henry Ward supported me in it. He was then the commissioner of conservation, but several of the other cabinet 00:27:00members raised sand about it and thought we had made a mistake. However, the superintendent of public instruction and Ward both supported me in my position.

KLEBER: "Doc" Beauchamp? What was his position on this?

WETHERBY: Beauchamp, uh, was all right on it. He never did, uh, quarrel about it. As a matter of fact, he supported me in my decision.

KLEBER: He was more interested in the purgation law than he was in this.

WETHERBY: (laughs) That's right. He was more, more interested in getting 'em to vote. And he figured we'd get 'em all to vote after I'd--(laughs)--taken that position.

KLEBER: Did you notice any difference in various parts of the commonwealth on this question of segregation? Did there seem to be more against it in the western part than in the eastern part? Or could you draw any ideas on that?

WETHERBY: Yes, I think, uh, the people in west Kentucky resented it more than anyone because they were our two big parks at that time, in west Kentucky, and 00:28:00when we opened them up, that caused some friction down there. But the rest of the state, I didn't see much of an uproar about it.

KLEBER: You never had to use the, uh, state police or National Guard to enforce integration. Uh, had you needed to do so, would you have done it?

WETHERBY: Yeah, sure I would have. I would have used them just as I did in the strikes to enforce the law because it was my opinion that was the law of the land and it was up to me as the chief executive and the chief law enforcement officer of the state to see that it was upheld.

KLEBER: Subsequent to your administration, Chandler did use the National Guard--

WETHERBY: That's right, down in Sturgis.

KLEBER: --situation down in Sturgis. Did you approve pretty much of the way Chandler handled the question of integration?

WETHERBY: No, I did not because I thought when he sent the National Guard down there, it was unnecessary. He could have done the same thing I did, and appoint 00:29:00a group to go down there and work on the thing without just sending the National Guard down right quick and standing in doors, so to speak. (coughs)

KLEBER: So the concept of the board that you established was not carried on under Chandler?

WETHERBY: No, it was not.

KLEBER: Let's, uh, move from that topic into this cam--primary campaign of 1955, which--

WETHERBY: Right.

KLEBER: --people still talk about as one of the most interesting and perhaps, uh--

WETHERBY: One of the most--

KLEBER: --memorable and bitter campaigns in our history. In 1955, you, the administration, supported--

WETHERBY: Bert Combs.

KLEBER: --Bert Combs.

WETHERBY: Right.

KLEBER: Can you tell me how you came to support Bert Combs for governor?

WETHERBY: Well, Senator Clements and Doc Beauchamp and I had surveyed the possible prospects for governor, and, uh, Beauchamp wanted to run. Uh, we had 00:30:00several other people that wanted to run. Clements had two or three people that he suggested. I picked one or two, and explored with them the possibility of running. They both declined to even discuss it. They thought about it and then declined.

KLEBER: Can you name those people?

WETHERBY: Yes, I had favored Louis Cox who had been president of the senate after me, and then I also had a strong feeling for William Curlin who was my highway commissioner. Clements was very fond of Curlin, Beauchamp was fond of him, but Clements took the position that we had never been able to elect a 00:31:00highway commissioner. I said, "Well, I've got a different one. I've got a different kind of highway commissioner. He says no a lot of times to a delegation, but he says it in such a manner that it doesn't make him mad. These other highway commissioners have just, uh, browbeaten the people on their requests to the point that they resent him." I said, "They don't do that to my highway commissioner." But, anyway, neither of them would support those two men.

KLEBER: What about Cox? Why did you like him?

WETHERBY: Cox, uh, more or less took himself out because Cox had represented the distilling industry throughout the state. Clements pointed out, even before Cox took himself out, Clements pointed out, he said, "Well, now, you're gonna open a fight between the wets and the drys, and I don't know whether it was good for us." Well, then, Cox came to me and he said, "Just count me out because," 00:32:00he said, "they'll eat me up because I've been eating the special interest--I've been representing the special interest groups, including the liquor industry."

KLEBER: Sure.

WETHERBY: So then we had meeting after meeting and discussed the various ones, and we finally agreed that we would come in to another meeting at the mansion for a dinner, the three of us. Each of us would bring a list of two or three people. When we got together that evening, we had eleven people on our list, on our combined list. I had put Combs on there because I had been close to him and had observed him in the court work up here, had observed him in campaigning. In '51 when I was running, he was running for judge of the Court of Appeals in that 00:33:00district and ran against former governor Willis and beat him in that campaign. I knew he was strong in east Kentucky. Clements and I had a strength in west Kentucky. I had strength in Louisville, so I figured that Bert would be the logical man. We went over the list and finally both Beauchamp and Clements said, "Well, you reckon Bert Combs would run?" I said, "Well, I don't know, let's get him down here and see." So I called his secretary over at the court. Asked her where I could get in touch with Bert and she had his home number at Lexington. He was then living in Lexington. (coughs) I called him and asked him if he could come down to the mansion. It was ten, eleven o'clock at night. He 00:34:00said, yes, he could. He came down and the three of us asked him if he would run. Well, he had several reasons he didn't think he should run, but he said he'd let us know in a day or two. Well, he called me and said, "Now if you all are serious about that, I'm willing to run." So I called Beauchamp and Clements and both--told 'em both that Bert was willing to run. So we got him in the race. And he made one mistake. The night that he spoke and opened his campaign in Shelbyville, he said among other things, that he would need twenty-five million dollars additional money for education. Well, immediately then Chandler hung the sales tax on Combs. Combs had not said he was for a sales tax, but 00:35:00Chandler hung that on Combs then Chandler ran against me. He didn't run against Combs. He criticized me for building the toll road. He criticized me for redoing the capitol building, putting air conditioning in, and then he criticized me about redoing the Capitol and putting rugs in the governor's office that cost twenty-two hundred dollars. He said they cost twenty thousand dollars for the governor's office. I took the invoices to him, showed him the cost of 'em. He said, "That doesn't make any difference. I said it cost twenty thousand and that's what the people believe." I said, "Well, in other words, you're using Hitler's technique of the big lie" and he just kept repeating it. So then I published in the newspaper the actual copies of the invoices for the 00:36:00rugs, but he kept hammering on that and he hammered on everything you could think of about our administration. He said the toll road started nowhere, went nowhere, that it would never pay for itself. The only way you could retire the bonds was "erect, uh, grandstands on each side of it and run bicycle races" and things like that. And of course as we all know, he's a great campaigner but he never sticks to the truth in his campaign, so he was successful. And we had carried, uh, Jefferson County by fifteen thousand votes for Combs; uh, he carried his own district in pretty good shape, but we wound up losing the state entirely by eighteen thousand votes.

KLEBER: What was it that, that defeated Bert Combs?

WETHERBY: The fact that Chandler hung the sales tax around him. That had more 00:37:00to do with it than any one thing, I think. And of course, Chandler would run against me, but our organizational people wouldn't let me go out and defend myself. They just let Bert carry the load, even though Chandler was running against me, and I'd say, well, let me go out and answer Chandler. I'll go out and debate with him. But the crowd said, no, no. Now Combs is the candidate; you stay out of it. So I did stay out of it.

KLEBER: You think that was bad advice they gave you?

WETHERBY: Well, I thought so because I was under attack by Chandler, and he had my family so upset with the tales he'd tell and the lies he'd tell and yet I couldn't even defend it. And I was the one that knew the truth of the situation.

KLEBER: If you had it to do over, would you have gone out now and campaigned against him?

WETHERBY: I sure would have, I'll tell you that. And, uh, of course, uh, 00:38:00everything that he said we proved was absolutely ridiculous. For instance, the toll road that I built, the bonds were to be paid off in 1998. They were paid off in 193--1958. In other words, it was paid off twenty years in advance. And, uh, it was the most successful toll road in the whole United States.

KLEBER: What if Bert Combs had won? Do you think there would have been a sales tax enacted?

WETHERBY: I think there would have because, uh, the veterans were after a bonus and the only way you could get one was to raise additional money through a sales tax. And when Bert--(coughs)--won in 1960--1959, took office before the '60 00:39:00session, they had passed a veterans' bonus, but Combs tied a sales tax to the bonus in order to pay it off.

KLEBER: You said you came into that meeting that night in the executive mansion with eleven names on a list.

WETHERBY: Yeah.

KLEBER: Do you recall any of those other names? I know it's a long time back--

WETHERBY: Yeah, uh, I recall several of 'em but it would better for me--(laughs)--not to put 'em on record because several of 'em would resent the fact that they were not the candidate. The one of 'em I know, uh, knew he was being considered and he got mad at Clements and he and Clements had been lifelong friends, and he got mad at Clements because he was not our candidate. And then subsequent to that, he got mad at me. And, uh, 'course Beauchamp's name was on the list, but, uh, neither Clements nor I would agree to that one, 00:40:00and he got mad at it, but he got over it. And, uh, there were several others on the list that I, I don't care to mention.

KLEBER: You wouldn't want to mention any of them?

WETHERBY: No, because most of 'em are still alive and as I say it was just--

KLEBER: Is that list, uh, anywhere at all printed somewhere that--

WETHERBY: No, it is not because--

KLEBER: --so that--

WETHERBY: --it was--when we each mentioned our people, I wrote 'em down on--in longhand, and then we'd go over and check 'em out and scratch 'em off or leave 'em on. And we got down to three people and then I think forcefully I picked Bert.

KLEBER: Now looking at--in hindsight again, do you think it would have been better to have gone with somebody else in 1955?

WETHERBY: We could have probably had a better campaigner because, uh, Bert, at 00:41:00that time, could not handle Chandler in campaigning.

KLEBER: Now, Bert Combs has been criticized, or was at that time, for his speaking ability and his heavy eastern Kentucky accent. Do you think that worked against him?

WETHERBY: That did work against him and, uh, before the next race in 1959, we had a Democratic meeting at Cumberland Falls State Park, and Combs came there and spoke and he made the most vigorous speech. He had not yet announced for that campaign, but he made the most vigorous speech and he tore Chandler to pieces. And when it was over, several people came up and said, "Now, Combs, you ought to run again, and now speak like you spoke here today." And he did. He 00:42:00then announced and ran.

KLEBER: He's a brilliant man, isn't he?

WETHERBY: Yes.

KLEBER: Certainly, this--

WETHERBY: Very brilliant fellow. And, uh, all the members of the court who served with Combs--of the Court of Appeals at that time, which is now the Supreme Court--all of them would tell me what a bright, brilliant fellow Combs was, and they, of course, were prodding me to get Combs to run for governor.

KLEBER: Do you remember the feeling the night you heard that he had been defeated by Chandler?

WETHERBY: Yeah, it was--bad. (laughs)That's about the only thing you can say about it.

KLEBER: Where were you when you, uh, got the results?

WETHERBY: I was in the hotel at Louisville, the Seelbach Hotel. That was our headquarters, and as the returns came in, we saw it slipping away. But as I say, it was close right straight through till the final count and we lost by 00:43:00eighteen thousand votes.

KLEBER: You thought, up to the very end there, that you might win it?

WETHERBY: That's right. Because I knew we were gonna get a big majority in Jefferson County, which we did. We carried Jefferson County fifteen thousand, but we lost the state as a whole eighteen thousand.

[Tape 1, side 1 ends; tape 1, side 2 begins.]

KLEBER: So it was eighteen--how close was the vote, do you recall?

WETHERBY: Eighteen thousand.

KLEBER: Eighteen thousand.

WETHERBY: The majority that Chandler beat, uh, Combs.

KLEBER: He was elected in November of 1955, Chandler.

WETHERBY: Chandler.

KLEBER: And there was a month of transition.

WETHERBY: Yes.

KLEBER: In which you are a lame-duck governor--

WETHERBY: Yeah.

KLEBER: --for practical purposes. What was the nature of that transition? How--did you and Chandler meet?

WETHERBY: No. He wouldn't even talk to me, and didn't--did never call me or ask anything about it. We just moved out and he moved in the day after I moved out.

KLEBER: You never spoke with Chandler from the point of his election until he became governor?

WETHERBY: No, I never did because, uh, I resented his personal attack on me all the way and I wasn't gonna approach him, and he did not have guts enough to approach me. (coughs)

KLEBER: That's unusual, is it not?

WETHERBY: That's right, it's very unusual. Now my wife did contact Mrs. Chandler and asked her to come down to the mansion and go over things there which she did.

KLEBER: You did, however, appear with Governor Chandler at the time of his inauguration and you delivered an address.

WETHERBY: That's right. He, uh, insisted on having a farm wagon pulled by four white horses and I had to ride with him in that wagon, and 'course I spoke and said what kind of shape the state was in, and the fact that we were leaving him a fifteen million dollar surplus. Wasn't a month later, I was in Florida on a 00:45:00vacation, they called me and said, "Chandler has just said that you lied, that there was no, uh, surplus." I said, "Well, I've got the facts and the figures and the treasurer has the dollars, so we'll just explode it." And I came back from Florida, and published a statement showing that there was a fifteen million dollar surplus.

KLEBER: Did you ever think about not attending the Chandler inauguration?

WETHERBY: No. I did think about not attending his opening in the fall campaign, and did not attend. All the rest of our crowd did attend. He had an opening at the Kentucky State Fairgrounds in September of 1955, and they asked me to come down and introduce him, and I said "I will not appear on a platform with Chandler." And I did not. Then we had a rally in Jefferson County for the 00:46:00Democratic ticket and I went down and spoke to that rally. But I took the rest of the ticket, from the lieutenant governor on down and spoke on their behalf, and made it perfectly clear I wasn't speaking for Chandler.

KLEBER: Well, throughout this time that Chandler's governor those fi--those four years, you still are a head--I would say titular head a, of kind of a bloc, a machine, or group right against Chandler. This continues during his time as governor?

WETHERBY: That's right, and as a matter of fact, then, without my encouragement, they organized themselves, my friends did, over in the legislature and they beat Chandler on several of his proposals. Then that group and our group went to work in 1959 to elect Combs.

KLEBER: During that whole period, was there thought given to maybe Combs 00:47:00going to run again? Do you think that right after his defeat, there was--they were already thinking four years ahead?

WETHERBY: Yeah, we were thinking four years ahead. He, he was reluctant to even think about it, but--(laughs)--when he came to Cumberland Falls and made that hot, rampaging speech, we all got after him and said now it's time to run. And he got ready to run and did.

KLEBER: In subsequent, uh, interviews, maybe we can talk a little bit about your role, when you returned back to the General Assembly as a representative and, and if you were able to somewhat get even with Chandler. I don't know if I want to use that term, but, uh--

WETHERBY: Well, no, as I said, without my encouragement, some of my friends in the legislature just took out and organized themselves as rebels they called themselves, and they took on several of Chandler's programs and defeated him on several measures.

KLEBER: Chandler was in a very weak position, wasn't he really? He was--

WETHERBY: Yeah.

KLEBER: --a maverick, away from the Democratic party?

WETHERBY: Right.

[Pause in recording.]

KLEBER: What do you think about the Bert Combs administration when it began in '59?

WETHERBY: I thought it was real good. Bert handled himself well. He went out and, uh, went into state government with an open mind and he consulted with a lot of our people who had been in government under my administration and he advised with me and with Senator Clements and all of our--and Beauchamp and all of our old crowd, and he started out like a house afire, and I thought had an excellent administration. He did pass the sales tax and the bonus--the soldiers' bonus. He needed the sales tax to finance it. He passed it, and he 00:49:00was criticized for putting the sales tax on, but it was the salvation for Kentucky.

KLEBER: Did he ask your advice about the sales tax issue?

WETHERBY: Yes he did. He asked our advice and, uh, I told him I thought the sales tax was dynamite, but if that's the only way he could raise the money, why, to tie 'em together and go on with it, which he did.

KLEBER: Did you communicate much with Governor Combs?

WETHERBY: Very, very much. Quite often he'd call me and ask me to come by and visit with him. Talked--he talked to me about various programs--

[End of interview.]