Interview with John Sherman Cooper, June 26, 1985

Partial Transcript: The following is an unrehearsed interview, the twentieth in a series, with former U.S. Senator and Ambassador John Sherman Cooper.

Segment Synopsis: Cooper talks about the Appalachian Regional Development Act, which he supported. He talks about the background behind the development of the act. He then describes the states the act covered and comments on the extent to which they are considered part of Appalachia.

Keywords: Appalachian Regional Development Act; Eastern Kentucky; Eastern Tennessee; Hubert Humphrey; John F. Kennedy; President Kennedy; Western North Carolina

Subjects: Alabama.; Appalachian Mountains; Appalachian Region.; Georgia.; Humphrey, Hubert H. (Hubert Horatio), 1911-1978.; Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963.; Kentucky.; Maryland.; Mississippi.; New York (State); North Carolina.; Pennsylvania.; Tennessee; United States. Congress. House.; United States. Congress. Senate.; West Virginia.

Partial Transcript: Well now--(clears throat)--you had introduced some kind of a bill as early as 1959 for the development of Eastern Kentucky.

Segment Synopsis: Cooper talks about a bill he had introduced before the Appalachian Regional Development Act. He describes the floods that used to happen in Eastern Kentucky's river valleys that prevented mining, timber, agriculture, and other industries from working effectively.

Keywords: Appalachian Regional Development Act; Big Sandy; Big Sandy River; Coal mines; Cumberland River; Eastern Kentucky; Kentucky River; Licking River; Mining

Subjects: Appalachian Region.; Big Sandy River (Ky. and W. Va.); Cumberland River, Big South Fork (Tenn. and Ky.); Kentucky River (Ky.); Licking River (Ky.); Mineral industries; Mines and mineral resources.; Ohio River.; Timber.

Partial Transcript: Well it was very interesting, this meeting. They had--as I said, there were about eight hundred there stood twenty years of, of achievement in Appalachian Regional Commission.

Segment Synopsis: Cooper describes a meeting he attended honoring people who helped the Appalachian region. He talks about gaining the support of Republicans in the Senate. He then comments on a letter he received talking about how the act is not as extensive as it used to be. He mentions a print of a painting he is going to purchase that shows a cabin in West Virginia and depictions of President Kennedy, Senator Jennings Randolph, and Cooper himself.

Keywords: Charles Robb; Chuck Robb; House; Jennings Randolph; John Y. Brown Jr.; Ned Breathitt; Paintings; Senate; Senators; Terry Sanford

Subjects: Breathitt, Edward T., 1924-2003; Brown, John Y., Jr. (John Young), 1933-; Governors; Legislators--United States.; Randolph, Jennings, 1902-1998; Republican Party (U.S. : 1854-); Robb, Charles; Sanford, Terry, 1917-1998; United States. Congress. House.; United States. Congress. Senate.; West Virginia.

Partial Transcript: After that--(clears throat)--President Johnson asked me and my wife to go to Eastern Kentucky with him.

Segment Synopsis: Cooper talks about a trip he took to Eastern Kentucky with President Lyndon B. Johnson. He describes the casual manner with which the President interacted with crowds. The interviewer comments on a photo of Johnson taken on the trip.

Keywords: Eastern Kentucky; Lyndon B. Johnson

Subjects: Appalachian Region.; Huntington (W. Va.); Johnson, Lyndon B. (Lyndon Baines), 1908-1973.; Voyages and travels.

Partial Transcript: But you, you've never had any--(clears throat)--any regrets about sponsoring that kind of legislation.

Segment Synopsis: Cooper says he does not regret supporting the Appalachian Regional Development Act and similar bills. He says these types of measures would benefit people in other countries as well. He says that scaling back on the Appalachian Regional Development Act could allow other areas that have been neglected to benefit from similar measures. However, he says it would be best for the federal government to allow the Act to finish its projects.

Keywords: Appalachian Regional Development Act; Projects

Subjects: County government; Federal government.; Legislation.; State governments.

Partial Transcript: In, in very--I think it was in January of 1965, the, uh, Corps of Engineers changed its position on, on some flood control projects in Eastern Kentucky.

Segment Synopsis: Cooper says he is not sure whether he can take credit for persuading the Corps of Engineers to pursue projects in Eastern Kentucky. He explains that ensuring that Eastern Kentucky could avoid having as many floods was a way he could help the industries there.

Keywords: Corps of Engineers; Eastern Kentucky; House; Senate

Subjects: Appalachian Region.; Dams.; Floods.; Ohio River.; Shipping.; United States. Army. Corps of Engineers; United States. Congress. House.; United States. Congress. Senate.

Partial Transcript: When President Eisenhower was president, and he had, of course, a man he, he was very strong with him, later became a very controversial figure, Sherman Adams.

Segment Synopsis: Cooper describes how he was able to get assistance from Sherman Adams to get money for a lock and dam on the Ohio. He talks about other people who were interested in the dam.

Keywords: Paul Blazer; Sherman Adams

Subjects: Adams, Sherman, 1899-1986; Blazer, Paul G.; Dams.; Greenup (Ky.); Ohio River.

Partial Transcript: Well one, one of the problems, uh, the Johnson administration had a policy that on these flood control projects the local community would have to reimburse the federal government for whatever recreational benefits, uh, accrued from the building of these, these dams and reservoirs and so forth.

Segment Synopsis: Cooper talks about how the federal government wanting local communities to reimburse it using funds from recreational projects created from the dams was not fair. He says it is impractical to expect people from Eastern Kentucky to pay back the federal government. He also mentions that many recreational facilities were created anyway but not for the purpose of paying the federal government.

Keywords: Eastern Kentucky; Recreational facilities

Subjects: Appalachian Region.; Cumberland River, Big South Fork (Tenn. and Ky.); Dams.; Federal government.; Local government.; Pulaski County (Ky.); Recreation.; Rivers.

Partial Transcript: In the, the first session of the 89th Congress in 1965, your committee assignments were Public Works, where you were the ranking Republican member, uh, Agriculture, and Rules.

Segment Synopsis: Cooper talks about why he chose to be on the committees he was on. He describes collaborating with Senator Henry Jackson and mentions Admiral Hyman Rickover's campaign for a promotion.

Keywords: Admiral Rickover; Agriculture; Armed services; Hyman Rickover; Judiciary; Public works; Rules

Subjects: Committees.; Jackson, Henry M. (Henry Martin), 1912-1983.; Rickover, Hyman G.; United States. Congress. Senate.

Partial Transcript: Again, it's a question of whether you'll ever have the facts sustained.

Segment Synopsis: Cooper makes it clear that he does not want to make claims about accomplishing something he did not actually accomplish. However, he adds that there are certain things he knows he accomplished for Kentucky, such as using his position on the agriculture committee to support tobacco by basing it on pounds rather than acreage.

Keywords: Accomplishments; Agriculture committees; Amendments; Bills; Giving credit

Subjects: Committees.; Kentucky.; Law and legislation; Legislative bills.; Tobacco.

Partial Transcript: Now, also in 1965, you were on the, uh, Republican policy committee.

Segment Synopsis: Cooper explains what the policy committee is and what its goals were. He says he is not sure how the committee was selected. He talks about Senator Robert Taft and the senator who succeeded him, Senator William Knowland. He also discusses the changing Senate Majority and Minority leaders after Knowland retired.

Keywords: Everett Dirksen; George Aiken; Policy committees; Republican Party; Republican Party (U.S. : 1854- ); Republicans; Robert Taft; Senate; William Fife Knowland; William Knowland

Subjects: Aiken, George D. (George David), 1892-1984.; Dirksen, Everett McKinley.; Knowland, William F. (William Fife), 1908-1974.; Taft, Robert A. (Robert Alphonso), 1889-1953.; United States. Congress. Senate--Majority leaders; United States. Congress. Senate--Minority leaders

Partial Transcript: Well in that, in that first session of the, of the 89th Congress that Republicans had a, a somewhat of a problem, uh, about what to do about Strom Thurmond who had switched parties.

Segment Synopsis: Cooper talks about Strom Thurmond and says he thinks that the Senate left him on the Judiciary and Armed Services committees after he changed political parties. He also talks about what happened when Senator Wayne Morse changed political parties.

Keywords: Armed Services Committee; Changing political affiliations; Changing political parties; Committees; Judiciary Committee; Strom Thurmond; Wayne Morse

Subjects: Morse, Wayne L. (Wayne Lyman), 1900-1974; Political parties.; Thurmond, Strom, 1902-2003.

Partial Transcript: In January of 1965, you introduced legislation to tighten laws governing lobbying and campaign financing.

Segment Synopsis: Cooper talks about the scandal around Bobby Baker that he helped to investigate since he was part of the Rules Committee. He talks about some of the people he worked with and the challenges they faced. Cooper mentions a resolution he used to establish the Ethics Committee and talks about people he worked with on that committee.

Keywords: Bobby Baker; Carl Curtis; Ethics Committee; Everett Jordan; James Pearson; John Stennis; Joseph Clark; Mike Monroney; Resolutions; Rules Committee; Thomas J. Dodd

Subjects: Baker, Bobby, 1928-2017; Bribery.; Clark, Joseph S.; Curtis, Carl; Democratic Party (U.S.); Dodd, Thomas J. (Thomas Joseph), 1907-1971; Governmental investigations.; Jordan, B. Everett (Benjamin Everett); Legislative bills.; Monroney, A. S. Mike (Almer Stillwell Mike), 1902-1980; Pearson, James B. (James Blackwood), 1920-; Stennis, John C. (John Cornelius), 1901-1995.

Partial Transcript: Well this, this particular le--uh, resolution that I'm, I'm talking about here was a--you, you offered a resolution to amend the Senate rules, uh, and this was before the Ethics Committee had actually been established.

Segment Synopsis: Cooper talks about a resolution he proposed to prohibit all employees of the Senate from accepting or distributing campaign funds. He speculates that it might have come from the Bobby Baker scandal. He also mentions voting to admit Senator Dennis Chavez.

Keywords: Bobby Baker; Dennis Chavez; Ethics Committee

Subjects: Baker, Bobby, 1928-2017; Bills, Legislative; Campaign funds.; Chavez, Dennis, 1888-1962.; Legislation.; United States. Congress. Senate.

Partial Transcript: Early in 1965, you suggested that the--that there should be a new Republican national chairman named.

Segment Synopsis: Cooper says he does not remember suggesting that Republican National Chairman Dean Burch step down from his role. He discusses how some people viewed him as a maverick in the Republican Party because he was not afraid to go against his own party. He talks about the opposition he faced when he voted against Senator Barry Goldwater.

Keywords: Barry Goldwater; Dean Burch; Republican Party

Subjects: Burch, Dean, 1927-1991; Goldwater, Barry M. (Barry Morris), 1909-1998.; Political conventions.; Republican Party (U.S. : 1854- )

Partial Transcript: Now, if, if we could go back for just a minute to the, the Rules Committee.

Segment Synopsis: Cooper says he does not remember much about the Rules Committee's probe into the Johnson family's trust. He says he prefers not to say bad things about people who have passed away.

Keywords: Bobby Baker; Carl Curtis; Johnson family; Lyndon B. Johnson; Lyndon Johnson; Rules Committee; Walter Jenkins

Subjects: Baker, Bobby, 1928-2017; Curtis, Carl T. (Carl Thomas), 1905-2000.; Jenkins, Walter (Walter Wilson), 1918-1985; Johnson, Lyndon B. (Lyndon Baines), 1908-1973.

Partial Transcript: On the, on the 25th of March, 1965, you, you made a major speech in the Senate on Vietnam.

Segment Synopsis: Cooper comments on a speech he gave about the Vietnam War in the Senate stating that both sides had become too rigid in their positions. He describes his approach as a legal or constitutional approach and talks about his thinking behind the Cooper-Church Amendment. He mentions the fear at the time that the war would enter into Cambodia or Thailand, which is what it did eventually. Cooper talks about talking to President Lyndon B. Johnson about the war and Johnson's speech that echoed Cooper's sentiments. Cooper then compares President Richard Nixon to President Johnson and says that Nixon was more open to talking to congressmen. He also mentions anecdotes about President Johnson that reflect his personality.

Keywords: Cooper Briefings; Cooper-Church Amendment; Frank Church; Lyndon B. Johnson; Lyndon Johnson; Richard Nixon; Senate; Speeches; United States presidents; Vietnam War

Subjects: Church, Frank, 1924-1984.; Johnson, Lyndon B. (Lyndon Baines), 1908-1973.; Nixon, Richard M. (Richard Milhous), 1913-1994.; United States--Presidents.; United States. Congress. Senate.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975.

Partial Transcript: Did you ever have, did you ever have any, any feeling that, that Johnson lacked sincerity about wanting the end of war?

Segment Synopsis: Cooper says President Lyndon B. Johnson idolized President Franklin D. Roosevelt and tried to mirror his accomplishments after Roosevelt. He talks about visiting Ho Chi Minh City and his views about the Vietnam War.

Keywords: Franklin D. Roosevelt; Lyndon B. Johnson; Lyndon Johnson; William Westmoreland

Subjects: Ho Chi Minh City (Vietnam); Johnson, Lyndon B. (Lyndon Baines), 1908-1973.; Roosevelt, Franklin D. (Franklin Delano), 1882-1945.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975.; Westmoreland, William C. (William Childs), 1914-2005.

Partial Transcript: Um, another thing, seems like we keep coming back to the Rules Committee, but another thing, uh, the Rules Committee considered in 1965 was, uh, changing the filibuster rule.

Segment Synopsis: Cooper talks about why he suggested adding more debate time to the filibuster limit. He talks about some of the rules about filibusters and cloture. He talks about Senators Joseph Clark and Carl Curtis's stances on the bill.

Keywords: Carl Curtis; Joseph Clark; Rules Committee; Senate

Subjects: Clark, Joseph S.; Cloture; Curtis, Carl T. (Carl Thomas), 1905-2000.; Filibusters.; Legislative bills.; United States. Congress. Senate.

Partial Transcript: Do you remember the, the Santo Domingo, uh, crisis in, in about April of a--1965 when a rebellion broke out in the, uh, uh--on Santo Domingo and, and President Johnson sent in troops, uh, ostensibly just to protect American citizens, but, but he kept sending troops until we had far more there than, than obviously was necessary to do what he said they were going to do.

Segment Synopsis: Cooper says he does not remember the Santo Domingo Crisis very well. The interviewer mentions that President Johnson's critics began protesting against the Vietnam War around this time.

Keywords: Lyndon B. Johnson; Lyndon Johnson; Santo Domingo Affair; Santo Domingo Crisis; Vietnam War

Subjects: Johnson, Lyndon B. (Lyndon Baines), 1908-1973.; Santo Domingo (Dominican Republic); Vietnam War, 1961-1975

Partial Transcript: Another, uh, uh, thing--another bill you introduced in 1965 had to do with these job training centers.

Segment Synopsis: Cooper talks about a bill he introduced that would have let people on probation enroll in job training centers. He says that these centers would help people without many options get a job. He says he was not able to get the bill passed.

Keywords: Bills

Subjects: Legislative bills.; Occupational training.

Partial Transcript: When Adlai Stevenson died in, in the summer of 1965, that prompted a lot of speculation about who would be named ambassador to the U.N.

Segment Synopsis: Cooper talks about his memories of Adlai Stevenson. He says he did not take Stevenson's position as U.N. Ambassador and had no interest in doing so in the first place.

Keywords: Adlai Stevenson; Adlai Stevenson II; Dwight D. Eisenhower; Dwight Eisenhower; Harry S. Truman; Harry Truman; Lyndon B. Johnson; Lyndon Johnson; Ronald Reagan; U.N. Ambassadors

Subjects: Death.; Eisenhower, Dwight D. (Dwight David), 1890-1969.; Harvard University.; Johnson, Lyndon B. (Lyndon Baines), 1908-1973.; Reagan, Ronald.; Stevenson, Adlai E. (Adlai Ewing), 1900-1965.; Truman, Harry S., 1884-1972.; United Nations.

Partial Transcript: Do you recall the name Nora Samuelli?

Segment Synopsis: Cooper talks about Nora Samuelli, a woman who was a Romanian spy for the United States. He talks about his helping her get compensation and United States residency. He then expresses sympathy for Senator Thomas Dodd, who was censured. He then mentions how he gets letters from people who tell him how much he has helped them.

Keywords: Nora Samuelli; Thomas Dodd; Thomas J. Dodd

Subjects: Bucharest (Romania); Dodd, Thomas J. (Thomas Joseph), 1907-1971; Espionage.; Spies.; United States. Congress--Censures

Partial Transcript: Do you remember the, uh, Highway Beautification Act in '65?

Segment Synopsis: Cooper describes the motivation behind passing the Highway Beautification Act. He talks about the advertisement signs that were making highways look unappealing. He says the law only applied to the interstate highways.

Keywords: Highway Beautification Act

Subjects: Advertising.; Legislative bills.; Roads.; Signs and signboards.

Partial Transcript: One of the things that, that struck my attention was in, in September of 1965, the Senate voted to build a, a, a new building for the Library of Congress, an additional building for the Library of Congress.

Segment Synopsis: Cooper says he was on the Joint Library Committee, which was tasked with deciding whether to build a new building for the Library of Congress. He says he opposed building the new building because Capitol Hill was becoming too cluttered with buildings. He says he wanted the president to create a commission to decide how to use the space on Capitol Hill.

Keywords: Capitol Hill

Subjects: Buildings.; Libraries.; Library of Congress.

Partial Transcript: In, in alternate years, the American Political Science Association gives distinguished service awards to four members of Congress, one from each party from, from each House.

Segment Synopsis: Cooper says he was designated an honorary member of the American Political Science Association and won an award from them. He describes feeling proud when he achieved these accomplishments.

Keywords: Achievements; Honors

Subjects: American Political Science Association.; Awards.

Partial Transcript: In, in late 1965, you were appointed to the United States delegation to the Manila Conference.

Segment Synopsis: Cooper says the Manila Conference to establish the Asian Development Bank was an extension of the World Bank for countries in Asia. He describes the places he traveled to before ending up in Manila for the conference. He says he is not sure why he was selected to be part of the delegation.

Keywords: Eugene Black; Manila Conference

Subjects: Asian Development Bank.; Bangkok (Thailand); Black, Eugene, 1879-1975; Congresses and conventions.; Manila (Philippines); Meetings.; Tokyo (Japan); Vietnam.; World Bank.

Partial Transcript: There was a, a water quality act passed in 1965, uh, that, uh, you had some objection to.

Segment Synopsis: Cooper talks about why he opposed a water quality act. He says that states' rights were not an issue this time.

Keywords: Hudson River; John Tower

Subjects: Rivers.; Tower, John G. (John Goodwin), 1925-1991.; Waterways.

Partial Transcript: I guess one of the most important acts passed by Congress in 1965, uh, was the, the education acts.

Segment Synopsis: Cooper explains why he voted for the Elementary and Secondary Education Act. He says he is not sure why Senator Thruston Morton voted against it. He mentions that Senator Robert Taft created a bill for education, which he helped work on. He says he is not sure why it took a long time for the bill to pass but acknowledges that President Lyndon B. Johnson helped the bill pass.

Keywords: Elementary and Secondary Education Act (ESEA); Lyndon B. Johnson; Lyndon Johnson; Robert Taft; Thruston Ballard Morton

Subjects: Johnson, Lyndon B. (Lyndon Baines), 1908-1973.; Legislative bills.; Morton, Thruston B. (Thruston Ballard), 1907-1982.; Taft, Robert A. (Robert Alphonso), 1889-1953.; University of Kentucky

Partial Transcript: Now of course another, another monumental--(clears throat)--bill in that 1965 session was the voting rights bill, uh, which, which suspended the use of, uh, literacy, uh, tests and, uh--for voting qualifications.

Segment Synopsis: Cooper talks about an amendment to the 1965 Voting Rights Bill that would have prohibited poll taxes. He says he cannot recall why he voted against it but makes guesses at why he might have voted that way.

Keywords: Edward "Ted" Kennedy; Edward Kennedy; Ted Kennedy

Subjects: Discrimination.; Kennedy, Edward M. (Edward Moore), 1932-2009.; Literacy tests (Election law); Poll tax; Voting.

Partial Transcript: And a-another thing that, that puzzled me in the, the Housing and Urban Development Act of 1965.

Segment Synopsis: Cooper talks about an amendment he supported that would have gotten rid of authorization of writ supplements for low-income families. He says he cannot remember why he voted this way.

Keywords: Amendments; Housing and Urban Development Act; John Tower

Subjects: Legislative bills.; Tower, John G. (John Goodwin), 1925-1991.

Partial Transcript: Now another thing you supported in, in 1965 was the Dirksen Amendment.

Segment Synopsis: Cooper talks about the Dirksen Amendment, which was a constitutional amendment that would have allowed states to divide one house on a non-population basis. He says he is not sure why he supported the amendment.

Keywords: Dirksen Amendment; Everett Dirksen

Subjects: Constitution.; Constitutional amendments.; Dirksen, Everett McKinley.

Partial Transcript: There, there were a lot of things that came up late in '65 that, that were really major, major issues.

Segment Synopsis: Cooper talks about why he supported cloture for the Taft-Hartley Law. He says he would have voted for people in unions to have the right to vote on whether to go on strike and would have voted against making people join a union before they get a job.

Keywords: Taft-Hartley Act; Taft-Hartley Law; Unions

Subjects: Cloture; Labor unions.; Legislative bodies--Voting.; United States. Labor Management Relations Act, 1947.

Partial Transcript: Right at the end of, of 1965, the Americans for Conservative Action--

Segment Synopsis: Cooper reacts to hearing that the Americans for Conservative Action group felt optimistic about Cooper in 1965. He says he never thought about whether his votes were conservative when he was making them. He acknowledges his gratitude for being elected for Kentucky by popular vote.

Keywords: Americans for Conservative Action; Moderates; Moderation; Political moderates; Republican Party; Republicans; Voting

Subjects: Conservatism.; Conservatives; Kentucky.; Legislative bodies--Voting.; Liberalism.; Liberals; Republican Party (U.S. : 1854-)