Interview with Grover C. Brummett, July 10, 1985

 KELLY: I'm Colonel Arthur L. Kelly. I'm in Louisville, Kentucky. I'm at the home of Mr. Gromer Brummett --

BRUMMETT: Grover --

KELLY: -- Grover Brummett, who is from Harrodsburg, Kentucky, and entered the Army in 1940, November the 20th or 25th--he doesn't remember exactly--with the famous Company D that was captured on Bataan, and he participated in the Death March, was at Camp O'Donnell, famous prisoner-of-war camp. He was on a detail in San Fernando in a salvage operation. He was at Colongo?

BRUMMETT: Caloocan.

KELLY: Caloocan. It's a suburb of Manila, where he was helping build a garage. He was on the "Hell Ship" for sixty-one days, the "Hell Ship" being the most traumatic and difficult experience 00:01:00for him during his three-and-a-half-plus years as a prisoner of war. On the "Hell Ship" he landed at Nagoya, or headed up at Nagoya, a prisoner-of-war camp on the southernmost island of Kyushu. Grover, let's just activate that unit and get started.

BRUMMETT: All right.

KELLY: Go right ahead. It's recording.

BRUMMETT: All right. We left --

KELLY: Go ahead.

BRUMMETT: -- we left San Francisco -- well, let me back up a minute. We participated in the Louisiana Maneuvers, the largest that was ever held in this country. After the Louisiana Maneuvers, General [George] Patton picked us out, fifteen 00:02:00tank battalions to go overseas.

KELLY: He picks you out -- out of -- one of fifteen tank battalions?

BRUMMETT: Right. One of fifteen tank battalions to go -- to go overseas for extended maneuvers. And when we left there we didn't know where we were going. We had sealed orders. They were not to be opened until three days at sea. But most of us guessed where we were going. We had figured out by that time that we were going to the Philippines. So that's where we wound up, in the Philippines. We arrived there November the 20th of 1941 after our training at Fort Knox and Louisiana Maneuvers and et cetera. And we had light tanks, and we was shipped 00:03:00to Clark Field right out to -- [out]side of Clark Field, rather, and we was in the process of getting our guns and tanks in fighting order, such as getting the cosmoline out of the guns and mounting them on the tanks, and we almost had that completed when the Japanese bombed December the 8th 1941. Most of our half-tracks had three guns on them, two .30-calibers and one .50, but we didn't have all of them out of Cosmoline. But by the next day we had them all out of Cosmoline. We had them on the tanks and we had them on the half-tracks and we was ready to go. And we was living in Tent City when Pearl Harbor was bombed, and I imagine there was 00:04:00about two hundred tents that we had pitched, and by three hours later we had all the tents struck and folded and put away, and --

KELLY: This is after the bombing or after the bombing of Pearl Harbor?

BRUMMETT: That was when we first heard of -- of the bombing.

KELLY: Yeah. Pearl, it was before -- before they bombed --

BRUMMETT: Yeah, we struck the tents real quick.

KELLY: All right.

BRUMMETT: And [coughs] --

KELLY: Well, when you struck those tents, you -- you were going to start living in -- in pup tents. Is that what you were going to do?

BRUMMETT: No, we didn't live in pup tents. We lived in our tanks and half-tracks. And --

KELLY: Were you -- were you a tank crew member at the time?

BRUMMETT: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

KELLY: What's -- there was -- there was fifteen tanks in your company?

BRUMMETT: No, they was -- we had 104 tanks altogether in the Philippines. It consisted of 00:05:00the 194th Tank Battalion and the 192nd Tank Battalion, and when we got to the Philippines I might add this: Company D was put into 194th Tank Battalion to bring them up to strength, fighting strength. And we was at the movies one night and they flashed on the screen, "All members of the 192nd Tank Battalion report back to their commanders." So we reported back real quick, and the commander told us that this is going to be the dividing point of -- from the men and boys. And, sure enough, it came out to be true. The strong men got back and the weak men didn't. And --

KELLY: Who was that speaking to you?

BRUMMETT: That was -- that 00:06:00was Colonel [Theodore F.] Wickord.

KELLY: Colonel Wickord?

BRUMMETT: Colonel Wickord.

KELLY: Was he from Harrodsburg?

BRUMMETT: No, he wasn't, he was from Illinois.

KELLY: A regular army officer?

BRUMMETT: No, he was National Guard just like we were.

KELLY: Okay.

BRUMMETT: And after the bombing, --

KELLY: You're talking about the bombing of Pearl Harbor or the bombing of --

BRUMMETT: The bombing of the Philippines. We was bombed a few hours after Pearl Harbor, and we was in the NCO [Non-Commissioned Officers] Club having lunch and when we walked out, we each had a pair of binoculars and we looked up in the sky. We heard this, the planes coming, and we counted 54 of them, and we thought, "Well, we're getting reinforcements." And about that time they started dropping the bombs on Clark Field and they flew away, and then about 250 fighter planes 00:07:00came in and bombed and strafed uh -- the whole field. And we only shot down nine of them, and we lost about twenty-five or thirty men and about seventy wounded.

KELLY: Out of -- out of the 192nd Battalion?

BRUMMETT: No, that was out of the whole outfit, the Air Force and the 192nd Tank Battalion, 194th Tank Battalion.

KELLY: You don't have to hold that mike. It'll -- it'll stay there.

BRUMMETT: Yeah, okay [chuckling].

KELLY: It will be easier for you. Go ahead.

BRUMMETT: And then that's when the war really started. We stayed in a compound around Clark Field until the 19th of December -- 19th of December. Well, we knew that the Japs had landed at Lingayen Gulf. So 00:08:00they sent a tank crew in there-a group consisted of six tanks-to see what the Japs really had, and they were really dug in. They knocked out one tank and the other five got back all right. The -- I suppose those five men in the tank was the first when it was captured in the Philippines. That was December the 19th of 1941. And --

KELLY: That -- that was B Company, wasn't it?

BRUMMETT: D.

KELLY: I mean was it D Company that sent a platoon in?

BRUMMETT: Yeah, right.

KELLY: I -- I thought it was B Company that -- that sent the company in at Lingayen Gulf.

BRUMMETT: No.

KELLY: I thought -- I thought D was with the 194th at that time. They came north later on.

BRUMMETT: Well, they hadn't got into the 194th as --

KELLY: As of yet.

BRUMMETT: -- as of that time.

KELLY: So when they landed at Lingayen Gulf, D Company was there?

BRUMMETT: Yeah, D Company was there. That's right.

KELLY: Is that right?

BRUMMETT: Yeah.

KELLY: I didn't know that.

BRUMMETT: And --

KELLY: It'll be clear on some of these other tapes. Were you there at Lingayen Gulf?

BRUMMETT: Oh yes, sir, I sure was.

KELLY: Okay.

BRUMMETT: I shot down a plane there that day.

KELLY: At Lingayen Gulf?

BRUMMETT: Yeah. A little "Photo Joe," we called him. He had flew around and taken pictures, you know.

KELLY: Were you -- were you in a tank?

BRUMMETT: No, I was in a half-track.

KELLY: You were in a half-track?

BRUMMETT: I ran -- jumped up on a half-track with a .50-caliber machine gun, and I kept leading that plane all the way around, and finally I'd seen him go down in smoke.

KELLY: Did -- did you have training on firing at aircraft -- shooting down aircraft? Did you -- did you get some training on that?

BRUMMETT: No, we really didn't.

KELLY: How did you know to lead it?

BRUMMETT: Well, just common sense, I guess.

KELLY: Duck hunter?

BRUMMETT: I knew about how fast the plane was flying, and I know about how long it took the bullet to get there.

KELLY: Say, and you were firing tracers, so you were leading that.

BRUMMETT: Yeah.

KELLY: And it flew right into them?

BRUMMETT: That's right, and I knocked him down.

KELLY: What did you do when you knocked him down?

BRUMMETT: Well, I --

KELLY: Did you cheer or --

BRUMMETT: Well, he fell about four miles from me and --

KELLY: Did --

BRUMMETT: -- he's --

KELLY: Go ahead.

BRUMMETT: And they sent in another tank, six tanks, and there was one man there-I don't know what company he was out of.

KELLY: No, wait just a second. Let me -- let me -- let me dissect that a little bit. At Lingayen Gulf, where -- where are you at Lingayen Gulf? It's a great big place. Are -- are you -- you on a hill overlooking the valley -- the sea there, where you could see the Japanese forces?

BRUMMETT: Right.

KELLY: From your position you could look down there and see it.

BRUMMETT: Umhmm, right.

KELLY: And the Japanese are dug in?

BRUMMETT: They were dug in.

KELLY: Were they bringing troops aboard -- ashore? Continuing to bring them ashore?

BRUMMETT: No, they was already ashore and dug in. There was a ship --

KELLY: Were -- were you there on the nineteenth or was it --

BRUMMETT: I was there on the nineteenth.

KELLY: The nineteenth, and that's the same day they landed?

BRUMMETT: That's the same day -- no, they landed before that.

KELLY: They did?

BRUMMETT: Right.

KELLY: Okay. But anyway, when -- when you -- you looked at them down there in the valley -- I mean on the ocean there, they were -- 00:11:00they were in a perimeter defense? What could-- what all could you see? You could see --

BRUMMETT: Well, we --

KELLY: Did you see movement, vehicles off loading, or what all?

BRUMMETT: We could see the movement of the Japanese, and we knew that our infantry force was not well enough to take on the Japanese until we found out what they really had. So that's the reason we sent --

KELLY: You were kind of on a reconnaissance mission?

BRUMMETT: That's right, to see what the Japs had.

KELLY: Well, was this -- was this a platoon or -- or just one section or --

BRUMMETT: A platoon of tanks, six tanks.

KELLY: Six tanks?

BRUMMETT: Right.

KELLY: And which platoon was this that went up there to look?

BRUMMETT: I -- you asked me that question a few minutes ago. I believe, if I'm not mistaken, it was Company D or Company B. I'm not sure. I'm not too clear on that --

KELLY: Okay.

BRUMMETT: -- on what company it was. We weren't really interested, but we had tanks to 00:12:00back them up.

KELLY: But you were there, is that right?

BRUMMETT: I was there, yes.

BRUMMETT: And you were overlooking -- you were looking down Lingayen Gulf and you were seeing the troops?

BRUMMETT: I was seeing the Japanese troops.

KELLY: The Japanese troops.

BRUMMETT: And how they were --

KELLY: And that's where you shot down the -- the airplane?

BRUMMETT: That's right.

KELLY: Now, are -- are -- is -- is that -- are you certain about this?

BRUMMETT: I'm certain.

KELLY: About the -- about the -- being at Lingayen Gulf and shooting down that airplane?

BRUMMETT: Right. And I -- I --

KELLY: I know it's been, you know, forty years and --

BRUMMETT: [Inaudible] years.

KELLY: -- and sometimes things run together.

BRUMMETT: I can tell you why I'm sure.

KELLY: Okay.

BRUMMETT: After this -- after I shot this plane down, well, they sent in another platoon of tanks. And this man, I -- I think he was out of Company --

KELLY: Maybe that was out of B? Maybe --

BRUMMETT: -- out of Company B, I believe it was. And he had a -- a real dark beard, and it was about a week old, and he chewed tobacco. And I asked him, I said, "Look down the road there and see if you don't see a plane down." And -- and he had a chew of tobacco in his mouth, 00:13:00and he spit and pulled that turret down and he said, "Well, I'll see you guys in hell!" [Chuckle] And I don't know the man.

KELLY: He's tough, huh?

BRUMMETT: [Chuckle] And when they came back, he said, "Yeah, there's a plane down."

KELLY: He -- he went down there to look? You mean he drove his tank down--

BRUMMETT: Yeah. Yeah.

KELLY: He did? He did? You asked him to go and he went down there and did it.

BRUMMETT: Well, they were going into action again anyway.

KELLY: Yeah. Yeah.

BRUMMETT: And he spotted that plane.

KELLY: He had access down there?

BRUMMETT: Yeah, he said it was down there. So that's one reason why I say I shot that plane down. I was the only one shooting.

KELLY: Yeah.

BRUMMETT: Of course --

KELLY: You -- you -- you had to leave your tank and go over to the half-track in order to -- in order to get to an automatic weapon that you could use --

BRUMMETT: Yeah, right. Yes. See, --

KELLY: -- to shoot it down? [Coughs]

BRUMMETT: On a tank you can't shoot up like that. You could shoot --

KELLY: Right.

BRUMMETT: -- around and up and down a little bit.

KELLY: Right.

BRUMMETT: And the 37mm, you couldn't hit nothing with that.

KELLY: You couldn't hit a tank. I mean you couldn't hit an airplane.

BRUMMETT: That -- that's right, and that's the reason I used that .50-caliber.

KELLY: I'll be darned. So that was your first combat experience there?

BRUMMETT: That's my first combat experience.

KELLY: And you had a successful event?

BRUMMETT: And I -- we --

KELLY: Well, did -- well, did that -- did -- did the crew celebrate over that? Did you all jump up and down and shout and do all those things?

BRUMMETT: No, I'll tell you, we was kinda a little bit disgusted because one tank came back right under the machine gunner's -- there was a little concave place there where he could maneuver his machine gun. Well, I think the Japanese used 47mms instead of 37's, and it went right in under the .30-caliber machine gun and hit this man in the neck, and I helped pull this guy out of the tank. His neck was shot off. His head was just flopping like this, you know, and --

KELLY: Was it -- was that the first casualty -- tank casualty?

BRUMMETT: No.

KELLY: I -- I know you had some back in -- at --

BRUMMETT: Clark Field.

KELLY: I mean -- I mean --

BRUMMETT: Brooks was the first man that --

KELLY: Yeah.

BRUMMETT: -- died out of the 197 men.

KELLY: Right. That -- that was from the bombing?

BRUMMETT: That's right, from the bombing.

KELLY: Yeah. But I'm talking about from -- from combat.

BRUMMETT: That was the first casualty.

KELLY: First casualty. Do you know this fellow's name?

BRUMMETT: No, I sure don't.

KELLY: But -- but you -- you helped pull him out of the tank?

BRUMMETT: Yeah, I helped pull him out of the tank.

KELLY: Yeah, and I think he's out of B Company, I'm pretty sure. I -- I saw the group commander's After Action Report. What was his name?

BRUMMETT: The group commander?

KELLY: Yes.

BRUMMETT: Wickord. Colonel Wickord.

KELLY: Yes, Colonel Wickord. That's who he is, and -- and he mentioned the guy, the person's name --

BRUMMETT: Yeah.

KELLY: -- and said that -- and I'm pretty sure he was out of B Company.

BRUMMETT: It could've been.

KELLY: And -- and that -- that was the first tank casualty of World War Two --

BRUMMETT: That's right. Yes, sir.

KELLY: -- in combat. But he was hit with a machine gun, Japanese machine gun?

BRUMMETT: That's right.

KELLY: Go ahead.

BRUMMETT: I would like to set the -- the record straight also. Again, they've got Lieutenant 00:16:00[William H.] Gentry in the history books today as being the first man to lead a tank battle, but he was not the first man to lead a tank battle. We had a -- a battle before he led the -- the battle after -- I think it was after Christmas. And, of course, we was in retreat at that time, and -- but the history books says that Lieutenant William Gentry led the first tank battle, which is not so.

KELLY: I think that was tank versus tank.

BRUMMETT: Well, now, the Japanese had tanks at Lingayen Gulf.

KELLY: Was that a tank firing that -- that --

BRUMMETT: Well, how about World War One? Now, they had the tanks in World War One.

KELLY: Yeah.

BRUMMETT: And I'm sure they had -- they had tank versus tank in World War One.

KELLY: I don't know whether they did or they didn't.

BRUMMETT: I know that he was not the first man to lead a tank battle.

KELLY: Well, who -- who was your platoon leader when you was up there when you shot down an airplane? Do you know who he was?

BRUMMETT: Well, our top sergeant was Sergeant [Megan?].

KELLY: Platoon sergeant?

BRUMMETT: Huh?

KELLY: The platoon sergeant?

BRUMMETT: No, I -- I was up there pretty close to the platoon leader. In fact, later on I -- I became a platoon leader.

KELLY: Well, what -- what were you at that time? Were you a sergeant?

BRUMMETT: I was sergeant, yes.

KELLY: Yeah. Were -- were you a tank commander at that time?

BRUMMETT: Well, no, not at that time. I -- I was a tank commander, I'd say, the last three weeks of the war.

KELLY: Uh-huh.

BRUMMETT: And I had -- by the way, I had two tanks shot out from under me, too. And --

KELLY: I -- I want to be sure and talk about that some more later on as we go back-- as we start the retrograde movement into Bataan. 00:18:00Right -- I -- I want to concentrate on the Lingayen Gulf now, and you're shooting now at this plane. You shot the plane down. Then is when the machine gun opened up from the beach from the Japanese, and -- and shot --

BRUMMETT: Machine guns. They had their artillery there and they had their tanks there and they had airplanes.

KELLY: Were you -- were you receiving fires on -- from all those things?

BRUMMETT: No, I -- not where I was. I -- I just was concentrating on little "Photo Joe."

KELLY: All right. This -- this plane where they shot -- where the person got shot, they shot his head off --

BRUMMETT: That was from artillery.

KELLY: That was from artillery?

BRUMMETT: I think it was from a 47mm.

KELLY: He was some distance from you. How far was he from you?

BRUMMETT: Well, now, he was in battle at that time.

KELLY: Umhmm. Umhmm.

BRUMMETT: That was the first six tanks that they sent in.

KELLY: Well, how -- how did you -- how did you get -- you said you helped pull him out, didn't you, of the tank?

BRUMMETT: Yeah. Now, that -- when they got back --

KELLY: Did -- did you -- oh, when they came back? He was still in the tank?

BRUMMETT: Yeah. He was still in the tank.

KELLY: They brought the tank back --

BRUMMETT: Right.

KELLY: -- to where you were?

BRUMMETT: Yeah. Right.

KELLY: Okay. Yeah, I mean, they'd sent that platoon forward and --

BRUMMETT: One got knocked out.

KELLY: -- one got knocked out.

BRUMMETT: And was captured.

KELLY: And one -- one -- and some of the crew was captured?

BRUMMETT: All of the crew.

KELLY: They was the first prisoners --

BRUMMETT: Yeah.

KELLY: -- from U.S.A., World War Two?

BRUMMETT: Yeah.

KELLY: But they were -- they came back to your position. About how far in front of you were they, about a mile or two or so?

BRUMMETT: Oh, I'd say three-quarters of a mile or something like that.

KELLY: Three-quarters of a mile? Right.

BRUMMETT: And we --

KELLY: Well -- when you pulled him out, you know, that's kind of -- that's -- that's your first ghastly experience with war, I guess. Well, it wasn't either, because you -- you -- you saw some casualties at --

BRUMMETT: At Clark Field.

KELLY: -- Clark Field.

BRUMMETT: Yes.

KELLY: But this is close-hand, and seeing that kind of condition, how did -- what did it do to you?

BRUMMETT: Well, really nothing. I -- I realized that we was in war and we was in there to win and, --

KELLY: And you were getting --

BRUMMETT: -- of course, you don't like to see anything like that, but --

KELLY: What you do, as some of them say, you look at it but you don't see 00:20:00it?

BRUMMETT: Yeah. That's right. That's a good way to put it.

KELLY: Yeah.

BRUMMETT: You look at it but you don't see it.

KELLY: You -- you were -- you just helped to clear -- clear him out of the tank so that they could get the tank ready to go again --

BRUMMETT: That's right.

KELLY: -- so they'd get it in fighting condition?

BRUMMETT: Yeah. And I might add something else to that, too. They wired Washington, D.C., and told them the weak spot in the tank, and -- and I think they --

KELLY: Corrected it?

BRUMMETT: -- corrected that mistake in the tank.

KELLY: What -- what -- what -- what was his position on the tank? Was he a gunner or --

BRUMMETT: A gunner. He was a gunner.

KELLY: And -- and where he was sitting, there was a -- there was a weak spot in the tank where -- where --

BRUMMETT: Yeah. Had a concave like this, you know, and your machine gun went out this way.

KELLY: Umhmm.

BRUMMETT: That was for him to maneuver that machine gun.

KELLY: To traverse it back and forth, left and right.

BRUMMETT: That's right. Yeah. And so right under there is where that 47mm hit.

KELLY: Underneath that baffling there that where the traverse mechanism --

BRUMMETT: Yeah, right.

KELLY: And then -- and -- and it was a 47mm that hit him?

BRUMMETT: Right.

KELLY: From another tank?

BRUMMETT: From a Japanese tank.

KELLY: Yeah.

BRUMMETT: And hit him here in the neck.

KELLY: Yeah.

BRUMMETT: And it cut his neck off.

KELLY: Yeah.

BRUMMETT: Well, it was barely hanging, I'll put it that way.

KELLY: Uh-huh. Did -- did you know him?

BRUMMETT: No, I didn't. Well, I knew him by face but I didn't know him by name.

KELLY: Yeah, you didn't know him by name. Okay. All right. Then after that incident -- well, let's -- let me run you back to Clark Field for a moment and -- and take you through that bombing in a little more detail. [Coughs]. Some airplanes had just landed there prior to that bombing. Didn't some B-17s just land there or something? Americans?

BRUMMETT: No, there was -- the B-17s was off on a mission, and when they got ready to -- when they came back to Clark Field, well, they hardly had a place to land there was so many bomb holes in Clark Field. They had 150 dummy planes set up here. Not a one of them was touched. Now, I'll talk about the P-40s that was on Clark Field. They had a whole 00:22:00row of them, and they was recalled about a quarter till twelve that day and they had landed, and they was eating -- eating lunch and --

KELLY: You all didn't get any alert at all then, did you?

BRUMMETT: Pardon?

KELLY: You didn't get any alert that there was going to be a bombing at all, did you?

BRUMMETT: No, none. None whatsoever. We knew that Pearl Harbor had been bombed, and we was kind of expecting it. And they had been in the air all morning, and so they recalled them about a quarter till twelve, and they was on the -- the ground having lunch. I happened to be at the NCO Club, and they caught just about all the P-40s on the ground.

KELLY: How many are you talking about, forty or fifty?

BRUMMETT: Oh, I would say -- we had fourteen after the bombing. I -- I would say about that many. But they didn't touch one -- none 00:23:00-- none of the dummies. They knew right where they were, and late that afternoon when the B-17s came in, oh, they hardly had a place to land.

KELLY: Before they come in, when you -- you come out -- you come out of the NCO Club and -- and you notice that there's planes over -- over in the sky, --

BRUMMETT: Yeah.

KELLY: -- you think it's navy planes or some other planes? You think it's friendly planes?

BRUMMETT: Yeah, right.

KELLY: All right. When did you know you were going to be bombed?

BRUMMETT: Well, when they dropped -- when we heard the bombs coming down.

KELLY: You heard them?

BRUMMETT: We heard them coming down. They was flying about 30,000 feet.

KELLY: All right. What happened when you -- when you heard those bombs coming down?

BRUMMETT: And when they started to --

KELLY: And what did you do when you heard the bombs coming?

BRUMMETT: Well, --

KELLY: Did somebody holler, "We're being bombed!" or what?

BRUMMETT: [Chuckle] When we heard them coming down, well, we headed for our tank or half-track or anything that had a gun on it, you know.

KELLY: All right. So you -- you headed for what?

BRUMMETT: I headed for a 00:24:00half-track. It only had two .30-caliber machine guns on it. The .50-caliber hadn't been mounted yet. And so Colonel Wickord, he was the commander of our tank battalion, he told his orderly, he said -- pointed out that half-track to him before he said, "If anything happens," he said, "you head for that half-track." Well, I got up on that tank and -- a half-track rather, and I started firing at those -- these dive bombers, and I almost shot him.

KELLY: Almost shot the colonel?

BRUMMETT: No, the --

KELLY: The orderly?

BRUMMETT: -- his orderly.

KELLY: Why was that? Because he jumped up on it?

BRUMMETT: He jumped up on it and I was -- [inaudible] machine guns this way, and he said a bullet just went by his ear like that. He could even feel the wind of it, and I asked him what he was doing up there, you know, and he told me that the colonel told him to --

KELLY: To get up there?

BRUMMETT: -- to get up 00:25:00there in case we had war.

KELLY: So you -- you went to -- you went right to action?

BRUMMETT: Right to action.

KELLY: You -- you ran right to the gun and started firing?

BRUMMETT: That's right. Yes, sir.

KELLY: Well, how close were the bombs and things hitting to you?

BRUMMETT: Oh, they was hitting about, I would say, a hundred yards, something like that.

KELLY: Was that kicking dirt up in your face?

BRUMMETT: It was a -- a little dirt. Yes, that's right.

KELLY: Well, were you hearing the -- the -- the fragments from the bomb flying by you?

BRUMMETT: No.

KELLY: What -- what were you -- what were you thinking while the bombs are hitting near you?

BRUMMETT: I was thinking of only one thing. I -- I was thinking about --

KELLY: Getting a plane --

BRUMMETT: -- knocking a plane down.

KELLY: You'd already -- no, you -- you hadn't knocked one down yet now.

BRUMMETT: That's right.

KELLY: This is your first time, yeah. You -- you'll knock that plane down when you get to Lingayen Gulf --

BRUMMETT: They was going in a eight position like this, one right after the other.

KELLY: The figure eight? They're making a figure eight in the sky?

BRUMMETT: Figure eight.

KELLY: And now these -- these were -- these were lower altitude and they were strafing? These -- these were the --

BRUMMETT: That's right, they were bombing and strafing.

KELLY: Yeah. Yeah.

BRUMMETT: And the big, four-engine bombers had already gone, and -- and here came these -- I'd 00:26:00estimate about 250. That's what's been told to me. See, we knocked down --

KELLY: Did you shoot at some of the bombers, too? Did you shoot --

BRUMMETT: No, I -- I knew it was no use --

KELLY: Yeah.

BRUMMETT: -- because --

KELLY: Well, you had -- when the bombers that were dropping bombs at high altitude, did they get very close to your track or were they out on the strip? You -- you weren't on the strip, right?

BRUMMETT: No, I wasn't on the strip.

KELLY: Were you in the middle, between the two runways, or where were you?

BRUMMETT: No, I was at -- at Fort Stotsenburg. Fort Stotsenburg and Clark Field is, you might say, is the same. See, we was more or less guarding Clark Field.

KELLY: Right.

BRUMMETT: And we --

KELLY: And -- and your tanks were all the way around the field?

BRUMMETT: That's right.

KELLY: And -- and your half-tracks scattered around it?

BRUMMETT: Yes.

KELLY: Were they camouflaged?

BRUMMETT: No, they wasn't.

KELLY: Were they dug in?

BRUMMETT: Dug in? No, sir.

KELLY: Just sitting on top of the ground?

BRUMMETT: We was just sitting on top of the ground.

KELLY: Okay.

BRUMMETT: Like I said a few minutes ago, that we --

KELLY: Well, how far were you from the runway?

BRUMMETT: I'd say a hundred 00:27:00yards, something like that.

KELLY: A hundred yards? Now, were -- were you on the north end, south end, east, west side, or do you remember?

BRUMMETT: I was on the south end.

KELLY: South end? Okay. And the NCO Club, how far was the NCO Club from your vehicle? How far did you have to run to get to it, several hundred yards or --

BRUMMETT: Oh, yeah, quite a way because the NCO Club sat over here, the half-tracks sat over here, and the field was right here.

KELLY: So -- so you had -- when you heard that bomb coming and you had some running to do to get to your -- to get to your weapon, and you did the running. Now, are -- are you going to have some bombs and things hitting around you as you're running?

BRUMMETT: No, the bombs wasn't hitting too close to me. They was concentrating more or less on the field.

KELLY: Were you hearing them hit the field?

BRUMMETT: Oh, my goodness, yes!

KELLY: What were you thinking about that?

BRUMMETT: I was thinking of only one thing.

KELLY: Still thinking of getting on that gun?

BRUMMETT: I was thinking of knocking a Jap plane out of the air.

KELLY: Well, you kind of 00:28:00took notice of that cracking noise. That's an awful noise, isn't it?

BRUMMETT: Oh, it sure is! I'm telling you!

KELLY: Yeah.

BRUMMETT: And that's [chuckle--Kelly] when that other fellow froze, --

KELLY: Yeah.

BRUMMETT: -- that I was telling you about.

KELLY: Yeah. Yeah. Now -- now, did he freeze before the bomb hit the ground or after the bombs --

BRUMMETT: No, after the bomb hit the ground. Well, he just stood like this.

KELLY: He -- he froze and he was never able to participate in combat again?

BRUMMETT: That's right. Absolutely. He and one other fellow -- of course, there were probably a lot more, but these two is from my hometown, Harrodsburg, Company D, and I -- I know about.

KELLY: He -- he had combat fatigue from the -- he was stressed beyond his limits when the first bomb, or the first series of bombs dro-

BRUMMETT: Bomb --

KELLY: -- dropped --

BRUMMETT: That's right.

KELLY: -- so that he had to be relieved of his tank crew duty --

BRUMMETT: That -- that's right.

KELLY: -- and was sent back to -- to work in the kitchen.

BRUMMETT: To the rear echelon as a cook's helper. That's right.

KELLY: Yeah. Yeah. Did -- did you see him after that freeze, or were you -- after that --

BRUMMETT: Oh, yes! I've seen him many, many times after the freeze.

KELLY: Yeah. I -- I mean immediately after -- after the battle was over?

BRUMMETT: Well, I'd seen him the next day.

KELLY: Was he shaking? Was he shaking and --

BRUMMETT: No, he just didn't seem like he had a mind.

KELLY: He -- he was absolutely stressed to the point to where he -- he was not himself?

BRUMMETT: That's right.

KELLY: He was stressed beyond his limits?

BRUMMETT: He couldn't sleep and he couldn't eat.

KELLY: He had -- he had combat fatigue, that's what they call it, you see.

BRUMMETT: Well, evidently, of course he -- that's the first combat that he'd ever seen, and I wouldn't call it combat fatigue. Combat fatigue is when you're on the frontline for three and four days without anything to eat or --

KELLY: Well -- well, what -- what -- it's kind of an all-consuming term. What it -- what it means is that -- that some people, because of the danger --

BRUMMETT: Well, --

KELLY: -- and hazard of war are -- are so frightened that -- that -- that their mind just snaps temporarily and sometimes permanently --

BRUMMETT: Well, now --

KELLY: -- and -- and to where they absolutely cannot -- sometimes they -- they take them back and give them a shot of whiskey and they recover and 00:30:00go back to the front. Sometimes they never do.

BRUMMETT: These two guys never did.

KELLY: And sometimes it'd take -- might take a guy forever and be in -- in intense combat and then get it, and sometimes they get it, like you say, on the first ones. I -- I guess that's -- that was his first --

BRUMMETT: But any person --

KELLY: But anyway, just to trace it -- just tracking this a little further, you -- you said that, you know, he -- he had an unusual stare and -- and -- and -- and go ahead and describe what he looked like after this incident.

BRUMMETT: Well, he walked around kind of in a daze with a World War One helmet on and with a rifle across his shoulder and --

KELLY: Did he know where he was or --

BRUMMETT: I don't know. I -- I didn't really didn't have time to -- to stop and talk and him, really. But I know I was sent back to the rear -- rear echelon for some ammunition one day in a jeep and-me and another fellow-and we had a .50-caliber machine 00:31:00gun mounted on the -- the jeep, too, and there he was walking around out in the field with a -- his World War One helmet on and a rifle across his shoulder, and I didn't say anything to him that day because we was in a hurry. We was --

KELLY: Is this an abnormal thing, what he was doing?

BRUMMETT: Oh, yes, very much so.

KELLY: I mean just walking with his helmet -- with his helmet on and his rifle on his shoulder?

BRUMMETT: Yeah, looking up in the air.

KELLY: Looking up in the air?

BRUMMETT: For a bomber, yeah. Yep.

KELLY: And this is how long later?

BRUMMETT: Well, this was about, I'd say, three weeks after the bombing of Clark Field.

KELLY: Well -- did -- did -- did you all talk about this?

BRUMMETT: Well, after the war he --

KELLY: No, I mean -- no, I mean before that. Do you and your peers talk about, you know, what happened to so and so? Were -- were you saying, you know -- did -- did you think he was a coward, or did you think his mind had kind of --

BRUMMETT: Well, --

KELLY: -- was stressed beyond his point? His psychological --

BRUMMETT: I think it was a psychological thing. He was afraid of dying and he wasn't 00:32:00the only one. I've seen others there in the same position, you know, as him. I'm not criticizing --

KELLY: Out of Company D? Out of Company D?

BRUMMETT: No.

KELLY: Out of other companies?

BRUMMETT: Out of other companies.

KELLY: Yeah.

BRUMMETT: Out of the tank battalions. We had two battalions --

KELLY: Yeah. Yeah.

BRUMMETT: -- there, the 194th and the 192nd.

KELLY: Yeah.

BRUMMETT: And I've seen a lot of them crack up.

KELLY: Right.

BRUMMETT: But any person that's going into battle says they're not scared, they're crazy.

KELLY: Right.

BRUMMETT: I know --

KELLY: As -- as they say, frightened out of his mind.

BRUMMETT: That's right.

KELLY: Yeah.

BRUMMETT: And I'd been in the -- went into action one night in what they called the "Little Pocket." No, no, pardon me, the "Big Pocket." And as we crossed over the hill in this tank, well, it was about twelve o'clock at night, and it looked like the 4th of July, the fireworks, you know. And after you get into battle 00:33:00and a few bullets hit your tank, well, you calm down then. At least I did, and --

KELLY: You're saying the anxiety and fear came before the bullets started to hit the tank?

BRUMMETT: That's right. Yes, sir.

KELLY: Well, describe this "Big Pocket." Let's talk about that a little bit.

BRUMMETT: Well, they had two pockets, the "Big Pocket" and the "Little Pocket." And later on --

KELLY: Is -- is this -- is this up toward Lingayen Gulf early in the war?

BRUMMETT: Uh, well, --

KELLY: There's -- there's an Agno River there they crossed after two or three days.

BRUMMETT: I --

KELLY: Was this before you crossed Agno? You -- you know, D Company lost their tanks up around the Agno River there, didn't they?

BRUMMETT: They lost 21 of them.

KELLY: All right.

BRUMMETT: Let's see.

KELLY: It's right up in here. Here's where it is. Here's the Agno River. What I'm trying to say is, was it back toward Manila or was it up toward the Lingayen Gulf? Closer to the Lingayen Gulf or closer --

BRUMMETT: Closer to Lingayen Gulf.

KELLY: All right.

BRUMMETT: See, they made a three-point landing.

KELLY: Well, let's just say, was it the first week or the first three days or first day or do you remember how soon it was, this "Big Pocket," as you call it?

BRUMMETT: Oh, we fought in 00:34:00that pocket, I guess, for three weeks before we --

KELLY: That must have been back in Bataan then?

BRUMMETT: No, no, it wasn't in Bataan.

KELLY: It was before you got to Bataan? Well, you see, they got into Bataan -- they started December the 19th, you say.

BRUMMETT: We had five retreats.

KELLY: Yeah. Yeah, you had five delaying lines: one, two, three, four, five.

BRUMMETT: And this was fortified.

KELLY: Yeah, this -- this -- this one, the fifth line. You see, the dates are along here somewhere. I'm looking for those dates. The 28th of December you're at Cabanatuan, and that's -- that's the fourth delaying line, and that would be ten days after it -- after -- after the landing. So was it in -- in front of this line here or --

BRUMMETT: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

KELLY: It's probably the second line then.

BRUMMETT: Yeah. Right in there someplace, too.

KELLY: Here -- here's -- here's -- here's -- here's -- the 24th of December you're on the first delaying line, and then -- this was -- this might have been the plan. Actually, they stayed longer. I don't know if that's the plan --

BRUMMETT: [Inaudible] just guess.

KELLY: Yeah, let's see.

BRUMMETT: Lingayen is -- this 00:35:00is Lingayen Gulf here. Okay. See, they made a landing down about here, and then another down about here because --

KELLY: Yes, well, see here is the Gulf right here.

BRUMMETT: Oh, is that the Gulf?

KELLY: Yeah. Yeah. They landed in three -- three areas there on the beach --

BRUMMETT: Yeah.

KELLY: -- is what they're saying.

BRUMMETT: Okay.

KELLY: All right. Anyway, go ahead with the "Big Pocket" and -- and talk about it for --

BRUMMETT: And the -- the "Big Pocket" is where the biggest battle was. It was mostly tank against tank and, of course, the Japanese had artillery and so did we, and --

KELLY: You -- you think this is a week after the landing, or maybe longer than a week after the landing?

BRUMMETT: No, it's about, I'd say, three weeks after the landing.

KELLY: After the Japanese landing?

BRUMMETT: That's right. See, we had each one of these five lines -- five retreats, we had to hold for a certain length of time --

KELLY: Right.

BRUMMETT: -- regardless of the casualties.

KELLY: Yeah.

BRUMMETT: And this "Big Pocket" happened to fall into one of the retreat lines.

KELLY: Right. Delaying -- what they call delaying lines now.

BRUMMETT: That's right. Yes.

KELLY: Yeah.

BRUMMETT: We had to hold it, and that's where I -- I went in --

KELLY: All right. Let -- let me ask you this question then. Was this the first delaying line, second delaying line, or third delaying line?

BRUMMETT: I'd say the second delaying line.

KELLY: Second delaying line?

BRUMMETT: Right.

KELLY: All right. This is going to be before they cross the Agno River then, isn't it? Yeah. See, the Agno River hits right there where that second delaying line is, and that's when they lost their tanks. So is this "Big Pocket" going to come before you -- before you lose these tanks?

BRUMMETT: Yeah. Right.

KELLY: Yeah. Okay. That's -- that's north of the Agno River then.

BRUMMETT: Yeah.

KELLY: All right, we got that fixed. All right.

BRUMMETT: We called it the "Bam Bam" River. [Chuckle]

KELLY: You called it the "Bam Bam" River?

BRUMMETT: Yeah.

KELLY: Do you have a reason for that?

BRUMMETT: No, not really.

KELLY: Just for some reason --

BRUMMETT: I can't put it on here.

KELLY: Oh, [chuckling] okay. Anyway, the -- the Agno River was a big obstacle. That's 00:37:00probably why they had that delaying line on that thing.

BRUMMETT: I can tell you something about that river.

KELLY: All right, go ahead.

BRUMMETT: After we had surrendered and we was going to build this barn or shed or garage, it's about 100 foot by 100 foot, it was a real big one, and after-see, we'd blowed every bridge from Lingayen Gulf down to Bataan-and the Japanese put up a wooden bridge. They had a guard on each end of it and they said six-ton capacity. So we went across there on a Air Corps trailer with a 14-ton tank, ninety bags of cement, and we got just beyond the halfway point of that thing and it -- it --

KELLY: Collapsed?

BRUMMETT: -- collapsed, and we was three days pulling that tank out of there.

KELLY: Is this the Agno River?

BRUMMETT: [Chuckle] Right.

KELLY: Was it your tank?

BRUMMETT: I -- I was on that -- that ten-man detail that was going to build this --

KELLY: To get them out?

BRUMMETT: No, I was on the -- the detail that was going to build this garage.

KELLY: Oh.

BRUMMETT: And we had to cross that. That -- this was after the surrender now.

KELLY: Oh, I see. You -- you're going to retrieve that tank that fell in the river?

BRUMMETT: Yeah.

KELLY: Was -- your tank?

BRUMMETT: No, it was a Japanese tank then.

KELLY: Oh, it was a Japanese tank?

BRUMMETT: Yeah, they'd captured it.

KELLY: Oh, is -- it -- the Japanese had captured one of your tanks. It was that tank that was left north of the Agno River?

BRUMMETT: That's right, one of them.

KELLY: And they was coming across the river on a -- on a bridge that collapsed.

BRUMMETT: That's right.

KELLY: But you were in the salvaging part, and salvaged one of your old tanks --

BRUMMETT: That's right.

KELLY: -- that they were using?

BRUMMETT: I was a prisoner at that time.

KELLY: Okay. I understa-, I got the story. Okay. Well, go ahead and -- and talk about the -- you call it the "Big --

BRUMMETT: The "Big Pocket."

KELLY: The "Big Pocket." 00:39:00And that was one of your big battles? Just describe that battle. You -- you said that you -- you must have been seeing the end coming before you got to where it was on you?

BRUMMETT: Oh, yes. We had had tanks in there for, I don't know how long. I'd say a week. And we would have to relieve each other, you know, from time to time, to come back and --

KELLY: Rest?

BRUMMETT: -- get a drink of water and a little food and a little rest.

KELLY: Did -- did you bring your tank back when you did that?

BRUMMETT: Oh, yes.

KELLY: I mean the whole crew and tank came back --

BRUMMETT: The whole crew and tank came back.

KELLY: -- to get some water, rest, and food?

BRUMMETT: That's right.

KELLY: All right. Go ahead with it when you first are engaged.

BRUMMETT: At the "Big Pocket"?

KELLY: At the "Big Pocket."

BRUMMETT: Well, I wasn't in the first engagement at the "Big Pocket," but I was in the second engagement in the "Big Pocket." I went up to relieve 00:40:00some of the other tanks.

KELLY: Okay. And -- and they were attacking the pocket, is that what you're saying? The Japanese were attacking it?

BRUMMETT: They -- they were attacking it.

KELLY: You all were counterattacking. They were attacking your position?

BRUMMETT: That's right.

KELLY: Were -- were you all dug in and fortifying the tanks?

BRUMMETT: No.

KELLY: Defilading and that sort of thing?

BRUMMETT: No, we -- it was tank against tank and artillery -- artillery against artillery. And there was very few foot soldiers up there. At least we didn't have any, but they probably had some snipers tied up in a tree. And --

KELLY: Well, this "Big Pocket," how many tanks are you going to have in it?

BRUMMETT: Well, I'd say we had -- we had about fifty in it.

KELLY: Fifty?

BRUMMETT: About fifty tanks.

KELLY: So that's -- that's a couple of platoons-plus. That's about three platoons, isn't it?

BRUMMETT: Yeah, that's right.

KELLY: That's most of the company?

BRUMMETT: Yeah.

KELLY: Probably had three up and one back in reserve or something?

BRUMMETT: Yeah. About one company at a time, you know.

KELLY: Yeah. So -- so -- so Company D, then, was involved in -- in the 00:41:00-- in the "Big Pocket" battle?

BRUMMETT: That's right, they were.

KELLY: And they had about fifty tanks in there?

BRUMMETT: Just about.

KELLY: All right. When they -- when they attack you, are these tanks [coughs] maneuvering against you, or are they -- are they just kind of in a fixed position shooting back and forth at each other?

BRUMMETT: No, they would maneuver around. Of course they were a lighter tank than what we had, but they had a little heavier artillery on their tank than we had.

KELLY: Armaments, you mean?

BRUMMETT: Armaments, yeah.

KELLY: Yeah.

BRUMMETT: That's right. And we could --

KELLY: When you was talking about artillery against artillery, are you talking about the armament on a tank or are you talking about field artillery?

BRUMMETT: Field artillery.

KELLY: Okay. All right. [Cough] Let's get you in the pocket then, your first time. You're going to be -- you're going to go up -- are you going with the company or a platoon or just --

BRUMMETT: I'm going with a platoon.

BRUMMETT: Okay. Five -- five tanks.

BRUMMETT: Six.

KELLY: Six tanks, and you're going to up and relieve another platoon, is that --

BRUMMETT: That's right.

KELLY: And -- and you 00:42:00go right into their position where they were?

BRUMMETT: That's right.

KELLY: How far apart are these tanks going to be here in that platoon?

BRUMMETT: Oh, maybe one would be, oh, six hundred feet away. We wouldn't have them all lined up, you know.

KELLY: Uh-huh.

BRUMMETT: They would be in a kind of a semi-circle and --

KELLY: And some forward and some back a little.

BRUMMETT: That's right. And, of course, that --

KELLY: What -- what -- what were you covering, an avenue of approach there, a road or --

BRUMMETT: No, we wasn't covering nothing. We was just holding that position.

KELLY: Well, I mean were you -- were you blocking the Japs from moving down an avenue of approach or through a --

BRUMMETT: Oh, yeah.

KELLY: Is that what you were doing?

BRUMMETT: Certainly.

KELLY: All right. [Cough] You said that when you first went up there you're -- you're going to -- your -- your fear has descended upon you because you know you're going to go into action. As you go toward that position [cough], what are you hearing? Are you able to hear anything with that tank or had you just been told what's going on? Or how -- how do you know that you ought to be concerned about this?

BRUMMETT: Well, --

KELLY: When -- when does it first get your attention that something is gonna, going on up there?

BRUMMETT: Well, like I said, it was about twelve o'clock at night, and the tracer bullets, I mean by the thousands -- .

KELLY: You're seeing -- you're seeing tracers?

BRUMMETT: I was seeing the tracers.

KELLY: Going out and coming back as you were approaching that position?

BRUMMETT: That's right.

KELLY: All right.

BRUMMETT: And as we approached that position I thought, well, --

KELLY: This is it, huh?

BRUMMETT: -- this is it, you know, and so as we got into battle position --

KELLY: Let me turn this tape over.

[End of Tape 1, Side 1]

[Beginning of Tape 1, Side 2]

KELLY: Gonna get you into your first combat action -- ground combat action when we had to turn the tape over. Continue on.

BRUMMETT: All right. As we approached the "Big Pocket" you could see these tracers flying by the tens of thousands, and after you got into your position -- of course, before we got there I was afraid, as any normal 00:44:00person would be going into battle like that. But after you're in battle for about, oh, five minutes, I would say, and you hear the -- the .30-calibers and .50-calibers glancing off your tank, well, you get at ease and you settle down and then you get your head screwed on right and you know what you're doing then and you got a -- a better chance of uh, coming out alive.

KELLY: It's sort of like a pre-football-game jitters --

BRUMMETT: [Chuckle] That's right.

KELLY: -- until the kickoff, and then you're in business.

BRUMMETT: Yeah. That's right.

KELLY: Well, [cough] as -- as you -- you're going to see all this, the -- the tracers at -- at night sometime before you get up to relieve that tank that you're gonna relieve, is that right?

BRUMMETT: Yeah. That's right.

KELLY: All right. As -- as you're going forward in your tank, are you assistant gunner now or gunner? What's your job?

BRUMMETT: No, I was a 00:45:00driver.

KELLY: A driver? All right. Your head, then, is out of that tank, isn't it?

BRUMMETT: No, no. No.

KELLY: You're -- you're in the tank?

BRUMMETT: Only -- only the commander's tank.

KELLY: All right. So you're just looking through a little slit?

BRUMMETT: That's right.

KELLY: That's how you're getting a panoramic view?

BRUMMETT: That's right.

KELLY: You -- you're -- you don't have a whole lot to --

BRUMMETT: To look through.

KELLY: -- view. Yeah.

BRUMMETT: It's about three-quarters of an inch height and about 12 inches long, and that's all you've got to look through.

KELLY: Yeah, all right. As you -- as you approach you first see the tracers, and then pretty soon you're going to start hearing them. That kind of adds to the drama too, doesn't it?

BRUMMETT: Yeah. That's right.

KELLY: All right. Were you able to hear that over the noise of the tank?

BRUMMETT: Well, you heard the artillery.

KELLY: Was that artillery hitting around you as you were going forward?

BRUMMETT: Yeah, pretty close.

KELLY: Were -- were you hearing some of the pieces hit your tank?

BRUMMETT: Yeah.

KELLY: The fragments?

BRUMMETT: Yeah, but it wasn't that bad until we got into action --

KELLY: Yeah.

BRUMMETT: -- and then when these 47mm started hitting your tank -- and, of course, we would 00:46:00try to maneuver these tanks around. We would get their position, we'd maneuver these tanks around where most of the times that they would glance off, you know.

KELLY: All right, when you maneuver that tank around, how much space were you covering? Were you covering an acre or two or --

BRUMMETT: Oh, --

KELLY: -- or just back it up and pulling it sideways and --

BRUMMETT: Yeah, backing it up, pulling it sideways. When you see a machine-gun nest over here or another tank, well, you're going to maneuver that tank around to --

KELLY: Engage it?

BRUMMETT: -- engage it. That's right.

KELLY: Were -- were you all knocking out machine guns?

BRUMMETT: Oh, yeah, we was knocking out machine guns and --

KELLY: Were you seeing it? Were you seeing --

BRUMMETT: Oh, yes.

KELLY: Did you see the Japanese guns and arms and things lined up there?

BRUMMETT: Yeah.

KELLY: You were that close to them?

BRUMMETT: Well, --

KELLY: How -- how close -- how close were you to them --

BRUMMETT: Oh, I guess --

KELLY: -- at the closest. That's different at times.

BRUMMETT: The closest part, I guess, was about one hundred feet.

KELLY: What were you -- what were you engaging at that time, troops in the open or --

BRUMMETT: Well, very few troops. There was mostly tanks.

KELLY: All right.

BRUMMETT: But there were some and we had some.

KELLY: All right. You had some infantry with you?

BRUMMETT: Yeah, the 31st Infantry [Regiment].

KELLY: The 31st?

BRUMMETT: Yeah.

KELLY: And -- and they were right in there with you?

BRUMMETT: They was following right behind the tanks.

KELLY: At that time?

BRUMMETT: At that time. That's right.

KELLY: Yeah. All right. [Cough] Are you going to -- are you going to knock out a tank in this action? Your tank?

BRUMMETT: Well, I don't know. It was a -- I suppose I did, but I -- I didn't stop to see.

KELLY: Yeah.

BRUMMETT: Of course, you're excited and you want to do the best job you can.

KELLY: At that -- your job at that time was driving, wasn't it?

BRUMMETT: That's right, driving.

KELLY: You're -- you're backing at that-- You're -- you're getting orders from your tank commander on the earphones?

BRUMMETT: No. The way they do that, the tank commander sits in the turret --

KELLY: Okay.

BRUMMETT: -- and he gives you signals by the touch of his foot on your right shoulder or your left shoulder or your head. That's the way you 00:48:00get your signals.

KELLY: Didn't have the intercom then?

BRUMMETT: No, sir.

KELLY: Well, when you got one on your right shoulder, what does that mean, turn right?

BRUMMETT: Turn right, left --

KELLY: Were -- were you moving most of the time?

BRUMMETT: We were moving most of the time, yes.

KELLY: But -- but you weren't going forward or you weren't going laterally. You were just moving back and forth, up and down --

BRUMMETT: That's right, maneuvering around, just like --

KELLY: Zigzagging a little?

BRUMMETT: -- cowboys and Indians.

KELLY: Umhmm. Were -- were you in flat terrain?

BRUMMETT: No, it was -- it was a hill --

KELLY: Rolling?

BRUMMETT: -- on each side. It was a --

KELLY: It -- it was a kind of a bowl-shaped thing?

BRUMMETT: Yeah, a bowl -- bowl-shaped thing.

KELLY: And you were on one side of the high ground and they were on the other side of the high ground and the center of it was kind of a no-man's-land?

BRUMMETT: No-man's-land and, of course, we got down into the --

KELLY: Was there -- was there trees and things in there?

BRUMMETT: Oh, yes, there was nothing but a jungle. We got out into the flatlands and, 00:49:00of course, when we get a tank knocked out, well, maybe we'd pull back a little bit and we'd knock a few of their tanks out. Well, we would advance a little bit --

KELLY: So you're kind of going forward and backward just a little, not much.

BRUMMETT: Yeah, right.

KELLY: And this went on for, you say, several days?

BRUMMETT: For several days. I'd say about three -- no, maybe not that long because the retreat didn't last that long. I -- I'm really not clear on this date.

KELLY: It's hard to remember it.

BRUMMETT: That's right, but I know it --

KELLY: But it was more -- more than one day. It was two or three days, at least.

BRUMMETT: Oh, yes. Yes. Oh, it was -- it was a week or so that we was in that.

KELLY: How -- how long were you in -- on that frontline where you were being shot at? You're going to stay there two days? One day or --

BRUMMETT: Oh, I'd -- I'd say --

KELLY: If you stay too long you're going to run out of ammunition and gas, aren't you? You got to come back for gas after you --

BRUMMETT: Oh, that's right. I'd say three days --

KELLY: Three days?

BRUMMETT: -- without food.

KELLY: Without any food at all?

BRUMMETT: That's right, without any food at all, without anything to drink. Of course, you had your canteen but, you know, you --

KELLY: You mean -- you mean that one canteen of water had to last you the time that you were on --

BRUMMETT: That's right.

KELLY: -- in that pocket?

BRUMMETT: And --

KELLY: And it was more than two days?

BRUMMETT: -- and it was hot in those tanks, too, I'm telling you. And the temperature in the Philippines is about 115 to 120 degrees.

KELLY: Well, when you're out there in that tank, you -- you're kind of in a little one-tank world, aren't you?

BRUMMETT: That's right.

KELLY: You don't really know about what's going on with the rest of the company, the rest of the platoon or the rest of the war, do you?

BRUMMETT: Well, we had an intercom from tank to tank but it was Morse code. You couldn't pick up a microphone and talk from tank to tank, you know.

KELLY: Well, you -- you're not talking to the rest of the crew most of the time, are you?

BRUMMETT: No, that's right.

KELLY: Were you talking to them any at all --

BRUMMETT: No.

KELLY: -- or were there times you were out of that tank when you were up there, you're in that tank, the whole two or three days?

BRUMMETT: I was in the tank the whole time.

KELLY: So you -- about the only communication you were getting was a pat on the right shoulder with the foot --

BRUMMETT: That's right. [Chuckle]

KELLY: -- and one on the left foot and one on top of the head.

BRUMMETT: That's right.

KELLY: No food?

BRUMMETT: No food.

KELLY: And you're having 47mms 00:51:00bounce off your tank?

BRUMMETT: Yeah. And --

KELLY: And you're wondering how long this is going to go on?

BRUMMETT: [Chuckle] Yes. It seemed forever, and forever can be a short time or it can be a long time.

KELLY: Yeah.

BRUMMETT: And it seemed forever to me, and it seemed like a long time.

KELLY: All right. When the pocket battle is over --

BRUMMETT: Oh, we pull out.

KELLY: Had -- had you already pulled out and been relieved, or did you all pull out from there?

BRUMMETT: No, the whole tank.

KELLY: You delayed that -- you delayed your -- your share of the time.

BRUMMETT: That's right. We -- we held them off. I -- I don't know how many days it was. I'm not clear on the exact time, but when we held this line so long, well, we pulled back to the next one --

KELLY: Right.

BRUMMETT: -- and we would hold that one for so long. Here is --

KELLY: Well, let's -- let's talk about the -- the crossing of the Agno when -- most of D Company's tanks were -- were lost, weren't they?

BRUMMETT: Twenty-one of them.

KELLY: How many did they have?

BRUMMETT: Fifty-four --

KELLY: Fifty-four?

BRUMMETT: -- when we went overseas.

KELLY: Yeah. Was that out of your platoon or --

BRUMMETT: No, that was out of the whole battalion. That was Company A, B, C, and D.

KELLY: They weren't all out of Company D?

BRUMMETT: No, no.

KELLY: I -- I thought they were.

BRUMMETT: No, no. Uh-uh. Company D didn't have that many tanks.

KELLY: Company D only had, what? They -- they only had fifteen tanks, wasn't it?

BRUMMETT: It was something like that, but --

KELLY: But the battalion had 54 or so, right?

BRUMMETT: Yeah, the battalion.

KELLY: All right. All right. Yeah. Well, I -- I thought, and I've seen it other places. It may not be correct, that's the reason why I want to kind of pursue this just a little bit, that Company D lost all their tanks, that that was the theory 00:53:00-- that's what I --

BRUMMETT: No, they didn't lose all their tanks.

KELLY: Or most of them?

BRUMMETT: They lost quite a few of them. There's one good friend of mine, Judson Simpson. He is dead now. When these 21 -- there was 20 -- actually 22 tanks, and he was the tank commander.

KELLY: In a company?

BRUMMETT: No, in this -- when we had blown the bridge and they got caught on the other side of the bridge --

KELLY: Okay.

BRUMMETT: -- and his driver started to get out and just leave the tank, you know, maybe drop a hand grenade down in there or something like that. That's the way they destroyed most of them. And instead, Judson Simpson, he pulled his .45 and he stuck that up to his head and said, "You're going to cross this river." He told his driver that. His name is Roy Goodpaster, and he kept that 00:54:00gun to his head till he got that tank across, and he got a Silver Star for it.

KELLY: Pulled his pistol and stuck it to his driver's head?

BRUMMETT: That's right. He said, "You're going to take this tank across." [Chuckle]

KELLY: I guess he -- had he refused or something?

BRUMMETT: Yeah, he was going to get out of the tank.

KELLY: Oh, the driver was?

BRUMMETT: Yeah, the driver.

KELLY: He -- he drew his pistol on him, huh?

BRUMMETT: Yeah. Oh, yeah, we, that was --

KELLY: Well, -- well, is that a Company D tank?

BRUMMETT: That was a Company D tank.

KELLY: Who was the driver?

BRUMMETT: Roy Goodpaster.

KELLY: He's from -- he's from Harrodsburg?

BRUMMETT: From Harrodsburg.

KELLY: He was the driver or he was the guy that pulled the pistol?

BRUMMETT: No, he -- he was the driver, and Judson Simpson is the one guy -- the guy, the tank commander, that pulled the pistol.

KELLY: Was Judson Simpson from Harrodsburg?

BRUMMETT: Harrodsburg. He and I grew up together.

KELLY: Is that right?

BRUMMETT: Right. And Roy Goodpaster, too.

KELLY: Oh, he is -- he is pretty tough.

BRUMMETT: Oh, yeah. Yeah. [Chuckle-Brummett and Kelly]

KELLY: Was -- it's Simpson?

BRUMMETT: Simpson.

KELLY: Yeah. And that's the only one of that -- that got across?

BRUMMETT: Yeah, that's right, the only one that got across.

KELLY: Did he have a lot of trouble getting it across?

BRUMMETT: No.

KELLY: Just drove it right 00:55:00across?

BRUMMETT: He -- that river is, I'd say, about three or four foot deep at the deepest part. That tank come across there good.

KELLY: Why didn't he do the others? Was it too late?

BRUMMETT: I don't know.

KELLY: Who made the decision to destroy [them]? Do you know?

BRUMMETT: I really don't know.

KELLY: Were -- were you there at the time?

BRUMMETT: No.

KELLY: No, you weren't?

BRUMMETT: No, I wasn't there.

KELLY: Your platoon was someplace else?

BRUMMETT: Yeah. Right.

KELLY: Your whole platoon --

BRUMMETT: Had already crossed the bridge --

KELLY: Yeah.

BRUMMETT: -- before it was blown.

KELLY: Yeah. Okay. All right. [Cough] I -- I want to jump back to -- to the bombing again. You shot down -- you shot down a plane up in Lingayen Gulf. This was before the "Big Pocket"?

BRUMMETT: Yeah.

KELLY: Right. You were shooting at planes when you were at -- at Clark Field?

BRUMMETT: Right.

KELLY: How many times were you bombed while you were at Clark Field?

BRUMMETT: We was bombed sometimes two or three times a day.

KELLY: How many days? Three or four days?

BRUMMETT: Well, we left there December the -- the 19th. We left Clark Field December the 19th.

KELLY: That same day that the Japanese landed?

BRUMMETT: That's right. That's right.

KELLY: All right. Are -- are you going to go north or are you going to go south?

BRUMMETT: Well, I -- I believe that's -- the Lingayen Gulf is north.

KELLY: It's north -- it's north of Clark Field.

BRUMMETT: Yeah. Yeah. We go up this way --

KELLY: Yeah.

BRUMMETT: -- from Clark Field.

KELLY: The reason I'm asking that is because I've seen contradicting information where the D Company was attached to the 194th --

BRUMMETT: It was. Yes, sir.

KELLY: -- and that the 194th had gone south, I think, after the bombing of Clark Field and then came north and I -- I mean south of Manila, because there was a force -- the Japanese forces actually landed down south there, you know.

BRUMMETT: Well, they had landed at first up here and then down here and then down here, and we didn't take all of the tanks up to Lingayen Gulf, now.

KELLY: You mean all of your company tanks?

BRUMMETT: Right, or battalion tanks.

KELLY: Oh, okay, battalion.

BRUMMETT: And they might have. Of course, I was in Headquarters Company. They transferred me 00:57:00to Headquarters Company.

KELLY: But you were in a tank?

BRUMMETT: I was in a tank.

KELLY: So -- so you -- you were with Headquarters when you were talking about this fighting?

BRUMMETT: Yeah, right.

KELLY: Yeah. Okay. All right.

BRUMMETT: You see, Company D is made of -- I mean the 192nd is made up of Ohio, Illinois, Wisconsin, and Kentucky, and they had to form a Headquarters Company. So I was transferred to Headquarters Company before we went overseas. I was in the Headquarters Company in Louisiana.

KELLY: Headquarters had some tanks?

BRUMMETT: Oh, sure.

KELLY: Well, was your tank for one of the staff officers or something?

BRUMMETT: More or less for the colonel.

KELLY: You -- you -- you had the colonel's tank?

BRUMMETT: Yeah. Right.

KELLY: You were the driver for the colonel?

BRUMMETT: Yeah. Right.

KELLY: Was he -- was he in that "Big Pocket" battle there?

BRUMMETT: No, no. He never was in battle.

KELLY: Is that right?

BRUMMETT: No, he stayed back behind the lines and he'd direct the battle from Morse code or something like that, you know.

KELLY: Was he -- what, 00:58:00was he in a jeep?

BRUMMETT: N-, he was in a jeep, yes.

KELLY: Umhmm. And who was your tank commander then? Was he out of D Company?

BRUMMETT: No, he -- I believe he was out of A Company. I can't think of his name right off.

KELLY: Yeah. Well, we'll push on through Clark Field.

BRUMMETT: [George A.] Griswold was his name.

KELLY: Griswold?

BRUMMETT: Griswold.

KELLY: You -- you got on your track that first day, shot the second and third day. What happened to you at Clark Field, anything unusual?

BRUMMETT: No, just the usual bombings. Maybe they had sent over two or three planes and dropped their bombs and we'd shoot at them and --

KELLY: Were you -- were you getting any aircraft off the ground there? Were they fighting? Was there any air-to-air fighting going on?

BRUMMETT: Yeah.

KELLY: All right.

BRUMMETT: Dogfights, we called them. Yes, what few planes we had left. Of course after the first day [when] they bombed Clark Field, they moved into another 00:59:00airfield, and finally the Japanese found that and bombed that, and even in Bataan the engineers built a -- a new airfield down there.

KELLY: Operating down -- out of Bataan?

BRUMMETT: Right. And, of course, by that time I don't think we had six or seven P-40s, and our engineers would work on that at night and -- with the bulldozers and everything, get it ready for our planes to land. And then the Japs would come by the next day and put holes in it, you know.

KELLY: And you had to repair those.

BRUMMETT: Right.

KELLY: I want to go back to the "Big Pocket" just one more time here. Was Company D in the "Big Pocket"?

BRUMMETT: The Company D was in the "Big Pocket."

KELLY: Okay. And when 01:00:00you -- when you cross that second delaying line, the Agno River there, describe some of your delaying action as you move back now.

BRUMMETT: Well, --

KELLY: When -- when was your next big action?

BRUMMETT: There really wasn't much to it. One or two of those lines there was no action hardly at all. We just encountered the Japs because our time limit was up. See, MacArthur, General MacArthur told us, "You hold this line a week or you hold it two weeks or you hold it three weeks, regardless." And if we had to radio back for help, you know, we would.

KELLY: Did you have infantry with you all the way back?

BRUMMETT: All the way back, 31st Infantry. And they was a couple of more intrave-, not divisions, battalions. We --

KELLY: American battalions?

BRUMMETT: Right, and Filipinos.

KELLY: Well, -- Filipinos. The reason I'm asking this question is Dr. [Alvin C.] Poweleit was saying that --

BRUMMETT: Poweleit?

KELLY: Poweleit, yeah. He was with most of the units most of the time coming back and forth from time to time, and he -- he said that -- that when the Japanese hit there, the Filipino army troops, not the scouts, just sort of abandoned their position and that they were not very well trained and -- and not reliable and didn't do anything to help with the cause and that essentially the battle was won by the tanks. I -- I -- I guess you -- . what -- what would you say about that? Would you --

BRUMMETT: Well, I would think so, too.

KELLY: The tanks were essentially the ones that did the delaying, but he -- he went as far as to say that there wasn't any infantry to speak of at all.

BRUMMETT: Oh, we had -- well, we had what we called a "flying" infantry. That was when the air force was knocked out. Well, they'd taken them and put them in the infantry, and they'd done a good job, the air force.

KELLY: Up -- up -- up -- up north of -- of Manila? Now -- I knew you had some when you got into Bataan.

BRUMMETT: Yeah. As a matter of fact at Clark Field, when they knocked out their air 01:02:00force there, well, they had no other position for them.

KELLY: Made them infantry?

BRUMMETT: They'd give them a rifle or a machine gun, and they done an outstanding job, I think.

KELLY: Fighting with you all in that delaying action back?

BRUMMETT: Yeah, in -- that's right, in the infantry. And --

KELLY: As infantrymen?

BRUMMETT: That's right. And we called them the "flying" infantry.

KELLY: Well, you know, I was thinking that the 31st -- the 31st was a -- was a regiment, wasn't it?

BRUMMETT: Yeah. That's right, it was.

KELLY: A separate regiment?

BRUMMETT: But it wasn't up to strength.

KELLY: A separate regiment. Yeah. I didn't think they'd joined you all, initially, up at the Gulf. I -- I thought, initially, it was mostly Filipino troops, the 192nd Tank Battalion, and some of the cavalry unit. What was that, the 126th Cavalry?

BRUMMETT: Well, that was the Filipino Scouts. The 12- -- no, I think they -- they were in the seventh cavalry.

KELLY: There -- there was -- there was an American cavalry unit there, you know, a small attachment, a squadron or so.

BRUMMETT: Yeah. I -- I think there was. I don't know what -- what that 01:03:00was.

KELLY: But anyway, as far as you are concerned with Headquarters, there was infantry that was fighting with you all the way back into -- into --

BRUMMETT: That's right.

KELLY: -- into the peninsula.

BRUMMETT: You see, when you go into a battle with a tank, you've got to have something to kind of back you up.

KELLY: Keep the other infantry off you.

BRUMMETT: That's right, to keep the other infantry -- they carry bazookas and things like that. Well, if your infantry can knock them out before they hit a tank, well, you won something there. And, of course, I -- I don't like to say this, but it's the truth. Our leadership wasn't too good.

KELLY: Yeah.

BRUMMETT: Or we would -- see, the Japanese had it on their drawing board to take the --

KELLY: Well, when you're talking about the leadership, you're talking about the lower level. You're talking about the battalion level --

BRUMMETT: I'm -- I'm talking about the higher level --

KELLY: Are you?

BRUMMETT: -- like [Gen. Douglas] MacArthur. I'm talking about [Gen. Jonathan Mayhew] Wainwright [IV], I'm talking about Gen. [Edward P.] King [Jr.], and I don't care who knows 01:04:00it. It's -- it's facts. MacArthur -- what we should have done, we should have been waiting for these Japanese here. He -- he told us where they was going to land and they did, and we should've been there waiting for them but we wasn't. Now, MacArthur turned out to be a real good general, I think, and Wainwright, of course, he had three months to go before he retired but he was caught in the Philippines, and I think he would've made a good general if he had been out on the front line.

KELLY: Had some more experience.

BRUMMETT: But --

KELLY: Did you see Gen. King or Gen. Wainwright very often during that fighting?

BRUMMETT: Yes, sir. I was with Gen. King quite a bit. Now, Gen. Wainwright, they put him on a different island.

KELLY: Corregidor.

BRUMMETT: No, he was captured on Corregidor.

KELLY: Right.

BRUMMETT: He surrendered Corregidor.

KELLY: Yeah.

BRUMMETT: General King surrendered Bataan.

KELLY: Right.

BRUMMETT: And after we got into Japan, well, they -- I don't know when they sent him over there, but they put him on a separate island from any other American. And so when -- I might be getting ahead of myself a little bit here. When the surrender came, when they dropped the atomic bomb, we didn't know what it was. I was about 75 miles from it, working in Nagoya. We could feel the heat from this atomic bomb and -- but we didn't know what it was. And so when the surrender came-I might add this too- when the Americans dropped the first atomic bomb, well, the Japanese called MacArthur and wanted to surrender and he said, "Unconditionally," and they said, "Nai," "No" in our language. And he 01:06:00just slammed up the phone. And when they dropped the second atomic bomb they called him wanting to surrender, and MacArthur said, "Unconditionally," and they said, "Okay." But the Japanese said, "There's one thing." They said, "We are embarrassed." And MacArthur said, "How is that?" They said, "We don't have a plane or a ship to get there with." He said, "I'll send a plane after you." And so he did. And he said, "But there's one other thing." He said, "I want Gen. Wainwright there at the signing of the surrender." And they said, "Well, I don't know whether we can get him there or not." The Japanese said this.

KELLY: Where -- where -- where are you getting this information now?

BRUMMETT: I'm getting it out of books.

KELLY: Oh, this is something you read. It wasn't something you were told in prison camps?

BRUMMETT: No, it -- it wasn't told to me. I've got I don't know how many 01:07:00books in there.

KELLY: Yeah.

BRUMMETT: And they had Wainwright there at the surrender.

KELLY: Right, he was there.

BRUMMETT: Yeah.

KELLY: Okay. As you delay back into Bataan, you're going to fight your way back on five successive delaying lines. Your biggest action is the "Big Pocket."

BRUMMETT: That's right.

KELLY: We've gone through that. Anything else on that "Big Pocket" we ought to include in the record here?

BRUMMETT: No, nothing. Of course, when you're in -- in an action like that, it -- it's kind of hard to remember the exact details.

KELLY: Right.

BRUMMETT: And, of course, you talk to a dozen men, and they're going to give you twelve different views about it.

KELLY: Well, actually it -- it's twelve different stories.

BRUMMETT: That's right, it is.

KELLY: See, I mean one tank is being in all kind of trouble and another tank might be sitting back there smoking cigarettes.

BRUMMETT: Absolutely. Yes, sir.

KELLY: That's the nature of that situation, you know. You can be side by side, almost, and one guy is going through all sorts of things and another guy is not. That's not unusual.

BRUMMETT: That's right.

KELLY: Nothing else in the "Big Pocket" you can think off we ought to include, then?

BRUMMETT: No.

KELLY: All right. As you -- as you delay back and you're getting toward Bataan, any other unusual happening, event, there that you can recall?

BRUMMETT: Yes.

KELLY: Third delaying line? Fourth delaying line?

BRUMMETT: I believe it was the fourth.

KELLY: All right. That was at -- near Cabanatuan? On that axis, anyway.

BRUMMETT: Yeah.

KELLY: Okay.

BRUMMETT: I never was in that prison camp, but --

KELLY: All right.

BRUMMETT: -- I fought this action here.

KELLY: And you were with Headquarters?

BRUMMETT: That's right.

KELLY: Okay.

BRUMMETT: And they -- let's see, we had two tanks, one half-track, and about thirty men. And they was down a -- up and down an irrigation ditch and --

KELLY: You're talking about friendly forces that were up and down an irrigation ditch?

BRUMMETT: Yeah. Right. The Americans.

KELLY: All right.

BRUMMETT: And we thought, "Well, now, the Japanese are not going to attack at night," which they 01:09:00didn't usually do. They would bomb and shell, but they wouldn't usually attack at night. [Cough] Excuse me. And about two o'clock in the morning they hit us and, of course, we had to hold that until daylight. And we had I don't know how many hand grenades. Someone told me that we threw 6,000 hand grenades that night. About 600 of them went off, World War One hand grenades. But we held them off 'til our time, and we had to go down this irrigation ditch that had a -- a dirt road.

KELLY: What -- what were you throwing? Hand grenades? Were -- were you in your tank or --

BRUMMETT: No, no, the -- the men up and down the irrigation ditch was throwing the hand grenades.

KELLY: Was -- was that American infantry?

BRUMMETT: American infantry.

KELLY: And -- but -- but you all two tanks with them and you were with them?

BRUMMETT: Yeah. Right.

KELLY: Okay. All right.

BRUMMETT: And we gave them a hard way to go. I don't know how many we killed. We didn't stop to count them, really.

KELLY: But did you see some dead Japanese laying on the ground?

BRUMMETT: Oh, yeah. They got up as far as fifty feet from me.

KELLY: Several of them?

BRUMMETT: Several of them. Yes, sir.

KELLY: Was your tank engaging them?

BRUMMETT: Yeah.

KELLY: Were you firing everything you had? The .30-caliber --

BRUMMETT: Everything we had.

KELLY: -- and the 37mm?

BRUMMETT: The 37[mm], Umhmm, and our .30-caliber machine gun.

KELLY: You -- you didn't have -- was the -- was the battlefield lit or was you all fighting in the dark or was there moonlight?

BRUMMETT: No, it was dark.

KELLY: It was dark?

BRUMMETT: And I might add, under this 37mm, it had a .30-caliber machine gun under the 37mm. That's when you appear as something that you can fire that .30-caliber at the same time and it will go inside of a tank or something like that, you see, and it'll ricochet and maybe kill -- .

KELLY: Some of the crew.

BRUMMETT: -- some of the crew, right. And --

KELLY: Well, that -- that started about two o'clock. How long did that little battle last?

BRUMMETT: Oh, it lasted for about two hours, I guess.

KELLY: Were you hearing things bounce off your tank?

BRUMMETT: Oh, yes.

KELLY: Small arms?

BRUMMETT: Yes.

KELLY: Grenades?

BRUMMETT: Yeah. Machine guns and --

KELLY: What -- what did 01:11:00you all think about having to throw 600 grenades and only 25 percent of them go off? Was -- were you all mad about that or --

BRUMMETT: Yeah, we were. If all of them hand grenades had went off, I think we could've held the Japs off another day or two but, unfortunately, they didn't and --

KELLY: I mean, were you all taking note of that? Was -- was that disgusting to you? Was that demoralizing or --

BRUMMETT: That's right, it was.

KELLY: I mean it was -- you talked about it and cursed about it and that sort of thing?

BRUMMETT: Well, cursed, yes. I -- I would say so.

KELLY: Yeah.

BRUMMETT: At least I did, I know.

KELLY: Yeah. Well, did -- were you having the same problem with your 37mm? Was that -- was that [inaudible]?

BRUMMETT: No, no. Of course, we didn't have any high explosive ammunition for the 37mm and -- but our engineers made some.

KELLY: It was hard for you to knock out a tank with your 37mm, wasn't it?

BRUMMETT: Pretty hard.

KELLY: But you could do it?

BRUMMETT: But the advantage we had over the Japanese tanks, the Japanese had thinner armor and ours 01:12:00had thicker. They had a bigger gun and we had a smaller gun, but I think we --

KELLY: You thought our tank was as good or better?

BRUMMETT: Oh, yeah, right.

KELLY: You'd rather have been sitting in your -- in our tank than in their tank?

BRUMMETT: Oh, very much so. Yes, sir.

KELLY: Okay. So this little action happened on, you think, the third delaying or the fourth delaying line. Probably the fourth delaying line down. Well, anything else as you go back, as we retreated back into Bataan here, now?

BRUMMETT: No, after this action was over here --

KELLY: Well, let me -- excuse me. Go ahead with that story.

BRUMMETT: After this action was over here, well, we crossed this fortified line and we went back in here and we dug in.

KELLY: Where? On -- on this last delaying line or --

BRUMMETT: Yeah, after this -- the fifth line.

KELLY: Umhmm. So you -- you mean back here north of Manila in order to let that other force come through that's on the south?

BRUMMETT: Bataan. That's Bataan, right?

KELLY: Yeah. Here's Bataan 01:13:00right here. See, there was another force south of Manila in this other area over here and -- and you all had to have a blocking position while they withdrew behind you all, and that's probably what you were talking about, I don't know.

BRUMMETT: Yeah. Okay. When we got back --

KELLY: This was a-- this was a -- this was right in here, see. It's --

BRUMMETT: Where is Corregidor?

KELLY: Here's Manila. Corregidor is down in here. So it's -- it's the delaying line before they get into Bataan, is what it is.

BRUMMETT: Yeah. Right.

KELLY: Is that what you're talking about, where you're dug in?

BRUMMETT: Yeah.

KELLY: That's where you are going to hold for a while?

BRUMMETT: That's where we was going to hold for a while.

KELLY: All right. What happened there?

BRUMMETT: Well, we got a little rest and we got a little food.

KELLY: You mean the Japs kind of stopped attacking?

BRUMMETT: No, they bombed every day but we was dug in well enough that --

KELLY: This might have been, now, Bataan, when they -- when they -- you know -- you know, after you got into Bataan and you set up your -- your -- you had two major defensive lines. One of them is pretty much north in -- in there, and -- and the Japanese took some of their troops out so they -- they -- they didn't attack for maybe a week or two, maybe. Maybe 01:14:00that's where you were?

BRUMMETT: Well, it could've been.

KELLY: Yeah.

BRUMMETT: But I might tell you this, too. The Japanese would push us back maybe a mile or two one day, and the next day we'd push them back a mile or two, and we would run across our soldiers, --

KELLY: This -- this is in Bataan or before you get to Bataan?

BRUMMETT: No, that's in Bataan.

KELLY: Okay. They push you back a mile or two and then you'd push them back?

BRUMMETT: Yeah. And we would find our soldiers, you know, with their eyes punched out, ears cut off --

KELLY: Did you see any of that?

BRUMMETT: Oh, yes.

KELLY: You -- y-you -- how many would you say you saw?

BRUMMETT: Oh, I'd say I saw a couple of hundred Americans.

KELLY: Were -- did that infuriate you?

BRUMMETT: No, not really. It just made you --

KELLY: Determined not to give up or not to get caught?

BRUMMETT: Yeah. That's right. I always lived with this philosophy, if one person was coming out of that prison camp, I was going to be that one person.

KELLY: You had to have that, didn't you?

BRUMMETT: And John Shumway asked 01:15:00me that on Action-11 News last November the 11th and I said, "I hope that every other man lived with that same philosophy." And, oh, I think Company D had a good -- we were all old farm boys and --

KELLY: Were they good fighters, Company D?

BRUMMETT: Oh, yes, sir.

KELLY: Good soldiers?

BRUMMETT: Yes, sir, good soldiers.

KELLY: Paid their dues?

BRUMMETT: That's right. They sure did.

KELLY: Was any of the D Company men caught in that kind of situation with their eyes punched out and their ears cut off that you know of?

BRUMMETT: I'll tell you, when you get into a situation like that --

KELLY: I -- I mean before they were captured?

BRUMMETT: I really don't remember.

KELLY: No, there weren't too many casualties of D Company coming down through there, was there?

BRUMMETT: No, not too many.

KELLY: I mean there weren't too many of them that was actually killed in action, I don't think.

BRUMMETT: No.

KELLY: Brooks was one of them.

BRUMMETT: Yeah, Brooks. I got a call from Frankfort the other day, Monday as a matter of fact. In fact he called me twice, and he was 01:16:00trying to run down a history on Brooks.

KELLY: Who is this?

BRUMMETT: I don't -- I don't know. From the Adjutant General's office in Frankfort.

KELLY: Yeah. Yeah. It -- it -- it's -- it was kind of funny that Brooks was the first black killed in the war.

BRUMMETT: [Laughing] Yeah, that's right.

KELLY: And he was -- he was with a white, Southern outfit.

BRUMMETT: Yeah.

KELLY: And I asked Dr. Poweleit why -- why he was with that unit and he said probably somebody, maybe Ken Hoyton -- Hoy--- Hoyn- -- Hoynton. I'm not pronouncing it right.

BRUMMETT: Kenneth Hourigan.

KELLY: Hourigan said that people didn't know he was black. Did you know he was black?

BRUMMETT: I knew he was. Well, of course, I was in Headquarters Company, but I had heard the other guys talk about him, you know. He'd go out with white girls.

KELLY: You really didn't know? I mean, do you know why he was assigned to D Company?

BRUMMETT: No, he was drafted in like Elmore was, you know.

KELLY: See, -- well, you know, they were not integrating the forces at that time is what I mean.

BRUMMETT: That's right, they wasn't.

KELLY: Yeah. How -- how did he get in D Company, do you know?

BRUMMETT: He passed as a 01:17:00white.

KELLY: That's -- that's what it was, yeah.

BRUMMETT: Yeah, he was real, real light.

KELLY: Yeah.

BRUMMETT: I -- I'd seen the guy a number of times.

KELLY: Yeah. Did you know him?

BRUMMETT: I talked to him but I never did run around with him or anything like that.

KELLY: Yeah. Yeah. When did you know he was black?

BRUMMETT: Well, I think it was after the war.

KELLY: After the war?

BRUMMETT: Yeah.

KELLY: People didn't know it then at the time?

BRUMMETT: Well, there were some guys in Company D who had called him "Nig," you know, and things like that, nicknames. And, boy, he would go all to pieces when you'd call him that.

KELLY: Is that right?

BRUMMETT: Yeah. And he wanted to fight you. [Chuckle-Kelly and Brummett]

KELLY: I guess we need to keep on fighting here. When you see that those Jap--- those Japanese had -- had mistreated those -- mutilated those bodies, probably might have even punched some eyes out while they were still alive, --

BRUMMETT: Could have, yeah.

KELLY: -- are you kind of -- just kind of registering in your mind that when you get captured there's going to be a problem?

BRUMMETT: No, I --

KELLY: You weren't thinking about being captured or --

BRUMMETT: I -- I never 01:18:00did think about being a prisoner of war. I thought we could whip the Japs, you know. I was [cough] -- well, here's what we lived on: rumors that we were going to get so many thousand troops and so many hundreds of planes, that we were going to whip the Japs overnight, you know.

KELLY: When did you get the word that you weren't going to get those?

BRUMMETT: Well, I think it was about April the 8th, 1942.

KELLY: Right before you surrendered?

BRUMMETT: Yeah, right.

KELLY: In other words, when you were fighting that delaying action, you thought you were going to be reinforced?

BRUMMETT: We thought we were going to be reinforced. That's -- that's right.

KELLY: You thought that all the way through until you got captured?

BRUMMETT: That's right. I guess if it hadn't been for the rumors, we wouldn't have made it through. We was expecting them troops every day. Ships, you know, things like that. We still controlled Corregidor, and they had them big 16-inch guns on Corregidor -- 12-inch guns.

KELLY: As -- as you come back into Bataan -- let's go into Bataan. Do you 01:19:00-- do you distinctly remember going into Bataan? Do you -- do you remember your unit, D Company, coming in, or Headquarters Company coming into Bataan?

BRUMMETT: Yes, sir.

KELLY: You knew you were in Bataan?

BRUMMETT: Yes, sir.

KELLY: And they had that first big delaying line up there, or defensive line. That was a pretty well fortified line, wasn't it?

BRUMMETT: That was well fortified.

KELLY: It went into that big mountain. What was the name of that mountain connected into the mountain from either side? It's not important.

BRUMMETT: Was that Mariveles? I believe it's Mariveles.

KELLY: It might have been Mariveles, and that was about a 4,000-foot-high mountain or something like that. You -- you could see it --

BRUMMETT: Yeah. Well, that had to be Mariveles.

KELLY: -- from all around, didn't you?

BRUMMETT: Or Bataan Mountain.

KELLY: Yeah.

BRUMMETT: Either one of them. I don't know which one it was. I don't think it's the Mariveles Mountain.

KELLY: Probably was. Anyway, at that time the armored forces, how -- how -- how was they deployed at that time? Do you know or can you only speak for yourself?

BRUMMETT: I can only speak for myself.

KELLY: Where -- where were you on that line? Were -- were you in the line or back of the line or --

BRUMMETT: Well, let me answer this question. First of all, on Bataan, now, they landed a force of 5,000 Japanese troops behind our line, and there was a motorcycle rider came into our camp about 2:00 or 2:30 one morning, and I knew that was bad news. So --[recording stop] So we was in trouble, so they told us to move south. That was in the back of the Peninsula of Bataan, and when we got back there to the battle line, well, it was about six o'clock in the morning.

KELLY: This is the first delay-defensive position?

BRUMMETT: No, no. It doesn't have anything to do with them. It has to do with the landing of Japanese around -- behind our lines.

KELLY: Okay.

BRUMMETT: Their purpose was to spearhead up through our lines --

KELLY: Right.

BRUMMETT: -- to spread our forces like this.

KELLY: All right. Were you on the west side, your Headquarters, 192nd? See, here -- here is the west side over here. Here's -- here's the east side, and here is where the landings were. Were you on this side where they landed? They landed on both sides?

BRUMMETT: I was Kilometer Post 201 when we surrendered. At 201, it doesn't give the --

KELLY: No.

BRUMMETT: No, it -- it was way around here, though.

KELLY: You were on this side over here?

BRUMMETT: Yeah.

KELLY: All right. D Company, were -- were they all together or were they scattered all the way across here?

BRUMMETT: They were scattered all the way across.

KELLY: Did they have -- you know, those crews that lost their tank. What did they do with them after that?

BRUMMETT: Well, they'd -- they dropped hand grenades in them and destroyed them the best --

KELLY: Well no, the crews themselves, did they ever -- did they ever get back in tanks or half-tracks? Did they continue fighting?

BRUMMETT: No, see, we only had 104 tanks, that was between two battalions, and they got -- 01:22:00put them in the infantry.

KELLY: They took D Company, some of D Company men?

BRUMMETT: Some of the D Company and put them in the infantry, yes.

KELLY: They did?

BRUMMETT: Yeah.

KELLY: The ones that lost their tanks?

BRUMMETT: That's right. No other tanks for them to get in. So --

KELLY: So that -- that was a pretty good-size proportion of D Company, wasn't it?

BRUMMETT: Yeah, that's right. It was.

KELLY: They -- they didn't fight as tankers from that point on, and some of them had been transferred over to other units, like yourself, that were in tanks.

BRUMMETT: Well, --

KELLY: And then there was -- they had some of their own tanks left, but most of their tanks were lost, weren't they?

BRUMMETT: That's right. Most of them were lost.

KELLY: So most -- most of the troops then probably went on to the infantry then? Is that what you're saying?

BRUMMETT: Into the infantry. Like the air force went into the infantry and --

KELLY: Well, did -- did any of them ever fight with you as infantry with your tanks?

BRUMMETT: I really don't remember --

KELLY: You don't think so, you would have known.

BRUMMETT: -- whether they did or not there.

KELLY: All right. Go ahead with your story down here, then.

BRUMMETT: Okay. The Japs landed around behind our lines. I don't know what date it was, but we estimated about 5,000 Japanese, and we immediately put a kind of a horseshoe-like around them, and it had taken us three weeks to annihilate them, and you couldn't get out of your tank or anything. They had snipers up in the trees and --

KELLY: How many tanks are you going to have in this action?

BRUMMETT: I -- I really don't know. I would guess --

KELLY: There were several of them?

BRUMMETT: -- forty plus infantry, you know.

KELLY: Some of Company D's tanks? Headquarters' tanks?

BRUMMETT: Some of Company -- that's right.

KELLY: A, B, C?

BRUMMETT: That's right.

KELLY: And some of the 194th tanks?

BRUMMETT: Some of the 194th tanks. That's right.

KELLY: So in other words, it was kind of a conglomeration of all the tanks that were available.

BRUMMETT: That's right. See, we had to maintain this line here, plus maintain this one back 01:24:00here. We was fighting, you might say, on two different fronts.

KELLY: Right. But then they moved -- they moved most of the tanks to engage that --

BRUMMETT: That's right.

KELLY: -- landing that --

BRUMMETT: Yeah. That's right.

KELLY: -- that Japanese force that -- that made an amphibious landing on southern -- southwest corner of --

BRUMMETT: Yeah.

KELLY: -- of Bataan.

BRUMMETT: Of Bataan.

KELLY: And you were in that action?

BRUMMETT: I was in that action.

KELLY: All right.

BRUMMETT: And I could say it'd taken us about three weeks to annihilate them. We put a horseshoe around them and just kept going like this, a little bit day by day, you know.

KELLY: Creeping forward?

BRUMMETT: Creeping forward. And --

KELLY: Was that a jungle setting?

BRUMMETT: Jungles, that's right. And they would climb up in the trees and tie themselves up in a tree. And if you'd shoot one out of the tree, well, he --

KELLY: You wouldn't know it until you saw him bleeding, huh?

BRUMMETT: That's right. And --

KELLY: Thank you.

BRUMMETT: -- I can remember very distinctly there was five of them that refused to surrender after 01:25:00we had killed all the rest of them, and they jumped over the cliff into the China Sea and --

KELLY: Did -- did you see them do that?

BRUMMETT: Yes, sir. I -- what I'm telling you is, is what I know. Like I told you, you can get twelve different stories from twelve different people.

KELLY: Right. Right.

BRUMMETT: And we pitched them --

KELLY: Were -- were you in a tank when you were looking at them or were you outside the tank?

BRUMMETT: No, we was outside of the tank at this time.

KELLY: This -- this was morning, in the afternoon, or --

BRUMMETT: It was, oh, I'd say about four o'clock in the afternoon. And we pitched them a -- a lifeline, you know, wanting to pull them in, and they pushed it away from them, and we had no alternative but to machine gun them, the five that jumped over the cliff, you know. So we did that.

KELLY: You -- you pitched them life rafts and they wouldn't -- wouldn't take them?

BRUMMETT: They wouldn't take it. And they always felt it was a great honor to die 01:26:00for the emperor.

KELLY: Right.

BRUMMETT: And, of course, we didn't feel that way. We was in there to win. But we lost the battle but won the war.

KELLY: When the -- when that battle was over, where -- where the tankers were facing the amphibious force, there was some infantry with you, too, of course.

BRUMMETT: That's right. Yes, sir.

KELLY: As you were, as -- when that battle was over and you're looking at the battlefield there, what are you going to see?

BRUMMETT: Well, what I remember mostly in my mind after getting out of the tank, you know, is the dead bodies, the Japanese bodies, and how they smelled.

KELLY: Everywhere?

BRUMMETT: Everywhere. Oh, you can visualize 5,000 of them in a small area.

KELLY: How big an area was this horseshoe?

BRUMMETT: Oh, I'd say it's about --

KELLY: Three or four acres or --

BRUMMETT: Oh, it's more than that. I'd say about -- I'd say about ten acres or something like that. See, they had just landed, and we'd got 01:27:00the word and --

KELLY: It looks like they could've broken through you.

BRUMMETT: It -- it looks like it.

KELLY: You didn't have 5,000 troops against them, did you?

BRUMMETT: No, we didn't have 5,000, no. But we had the advantage. These -- this was infantry that landed.

KELLY: Yeah. Yeah. You had tanks and they didn't have tanks.

BRUMMETT: Yeah. That's right.

KELLY: Yeah. Let me turn this tape over.

[End of Tape 1, Side 2]

[Beginning of Tape 2, Side 1]

KELLY: You just got through wiping out the Japanese amphibious force that landed to the rear of the Bataan defensive forces and you surveyed the battlefield and you see all these casualties. Go on from there now.

BRUMMETT: All right. I'll think I -- I put -- I've said this at the -- there was five Japanese that refused to surrender. That was the last five. They jumped over a -- a cliff into the China Sea, and we throwed them a line to try to rescue them and they'd push it away, and we had no alternative but 01:28:00to machine-gun them. And so after we got out of our tanks, which was a good feeling after fighting for a long period of time, --

KELLY: Are you in those tanks day and night while you were there?

BRUMMETT: Day and night. Oh, you'd better not get out of the tank because of snipers. And I'll tell you a story about that in a few minutes.

KELLY: That -- that's being confined. That's a -- that's -- well, you got out at night to relieve yourself didn't you, or --

BRUMMETT: Yeah.

KELLY: You -- you only went out for an emergency--

BRUMMETT: You -- you would have to. You'd have to take a chance.

KELLY: You didn't stay very long?

BRUMMETT: No. No, and you'd get right up --

KELLY: I -- I guess a lot of people got constipated over there, didn't they?

BRUMMETT: I imagine, and you'd get right up next to the tracks.

KELLY: Are -- are you -- you're -- you're going through some hunger pains here now, aren't you?

BRUMMETT: Oh, yes. You know, I -- I've heard, Colonel, that in -- many people has 01:29:00told me, "Oh, I'm starved to death." They don't even know what the word means. Now, the people in Bataan and Corregidor, they know what hunger means. When you go four years with one-eighth of a G.I. ration, then can you say you're hungry. When I regained mine, my weight, my record shows, my VA records, that I regained my weight in Letterman General Hospital in California. But I didn't regain all of it, but I was doing a good job working on it.

KELLY: Well, on your -- on your hunger pains here now, I -- I know as you're coming into Bataan, you're going to start eating your -- the cav squadrons are going to eat the horses, now, and I guess you all are going to eat part of them too, aren't you?

BRUMMETT: Oh, yes.

KELLY: [Cough] What kind of condition are you in, physically, now after this battle where you -- 01:30:00you defeated those Japanese?

BRUMMETT: Well, before we went into that battle, we was getting pretty good rations, just about as much as you wanted. And -- but I remember one incident, though, that we had put an observation post -- this is after two tanks was knocked out from under me, and I was on in the infantry at that time.

KELLY: Where were these tanks knocked out from under you?

BRUMMETT: Well, let's see. One before we hit the -- well, what we call the "Bam Bam" River.

KELLY: That's in Bataan?

BRUMMETT: No, that was --

KELLY: Oh, that's up at the Agno?

BRUMMETT: Yeah.

KELLY: You -- you had -- you had a tank knocked out from under you up there?

BRUMMETT: Yeah, before we got there.

KELLY: What -- what knocked it out?

BRUMMETT: A bazooka.

KELLY: Were you in it?

BRUMMETT: I was in it, yes. Oh, about all it done, it destroyed the tracks and, of course, you couldn't get out and repair the tracks.

KELLY: I mean, yeah, it -- it -- what -- when that thing hit you, just kind of describe what went on.

BRUMMETT: Well, there's a big vibration, and you would press on the driver's head, you know, to go forward.

KELLY: And you didn't go forward?

BRUMMETT: And he would try to go forward and --

KELLY: So the engine is still running, and you didn't even realize the track had been knocked out. But the track had been knocked out and that's what happened?

BRUMMETT: That -- that's right.

KELLY: Did you all get out of it immediately or --

BRUMMETT: Yeah, we got out of it and --

KELLY: Were you being shot at while you were coming out of it?

BRUMMETT: No, not for a few minutes there.

KELLY: Was this day or night?

BRUMMETT: This was daytime.

KELLY: This was -- this was before the "Big Pocket" or after?

BRUMMETT: This was before the "Big Pocket."

KELLY: All right.

BRUMMETT: We got out of the tanks, and I think we each had two hand grenades with us and we dropped them.

KELLY: You had a pistol?

BRUMMETT: I had a .45 automatic and, of course, a Thompson submachine gun, and we dropped all of our hand grenades down in there, and I remember one guy dropped it --

KELLY: You mean to destroy it?

BRUMMETT: To destroy the tank.

KELLY: Okay.

BRUMMETT: Of course, it was good to the Japanese. They could rebuild it.

KELLY: Right. Anyway, you --

BRUMMETT: Let's see, the second one, it was after we got -- I -- I really -- I'm really not clear on the date.

KELLY: Did you go right into another tank after that? Did you get a new tank?

BRUMMETT: About three days later I went into another tank.

KELLY: Well, some -- something -- how did you get in that other tank?

BRUMMETT: Well, the --

KELLY: Crew get knocked out or something or get sick?

BRUMMETT: Yeah, I don't -- yeah, they repaired a tank. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah, they repaired a tank that had been hit, you know, and very fortunately -- you know, your tank has got two big hooks on each end of it, and you carried these wire rope slings with you, and all you got to do is hook it on there and you could pull them things --

KELLY: With a tank retriever vehicle?

BRUMMETT: -- behind the lines. Pardon?

KELLY: With a tank retriever 01:33:00vehicle you mean, or --

BRUMMETT: No, with just a regular tank.

KELLY: With another tank?

BRUMMETT: Yeah. And they pulled that one back and repaired it. And the second one shot out from under me -- I'm not clear on the -- where that one was shot out from under me. Well, let's see --

KELLY: Was that in Bataan or before Bataan?

BRUMMETT: That was before Bataan.

KELLY: It's on --

BRUMMETT: And when I got in Bataan -- no, it must've been after Bataan because I fought in this battle back here.

KELLY: In another tank?

BRUMMETT: In a tank. Of course, some of the guys would have dysentery so bad that --

KELLY: Yeah. They -- they were beginning to -- they were beginning to lose them. They might have been taking some of D Company men out -- out of the infantry and putting them back in tanks. Do you think that was --

BRUMMETT: Well, it -- it was possible, very possible.

KELLY: Do you think they might have done that or --

BRUMMETT: Yes.

KELLY: Or probably did do that or --

BRUMMETT: Very possible because --

KELLY: Because they're coming outta there with dysentery and -- and --

BRUMMETT: Malaria and beriberi --

KELLY: -- beriberi.

BRUMMETT: -- and --

KELLY: Not beriberi then, were they? At that time?

BRUMMETT: Well, --

KELLY: That's probably later.

BRUMMETT: -- not too much.

KELLY: Yeah.

BRUMMETT: But a few cases of it.

KELLY: You -- you -- you mean your -- your -- your rations were so scarce there that you were getting down to just skinny right now?

BRUMMETT: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Sometimes we'd go two or three days without eating.

KELLY: Did you have any -- do you have malaria?

BRUMMETT: I had malaria thirteen times in a prison camp.

KELLY: I mean at this time?

BRUMMETT: No, not at this time. I had --

KELLY: Do you have dysentery?

BRUMMETT: No, I never had dysentery.

KELLY: So you -- you're --

BRUMMETT: Oh, yeah, I'll take it back. Yes, we did. Yes, I did. Should I put this on tape?

KELLY: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Go right ahead. You -- you -- you can be heard while you're hooking that back on.

BRUMMETT: All right. When we was back in Bataan, I thought I had dysentery. And so we had -- had latrines that we'd -- every time we would retreat or pull back or move positions, we would dig a 01:35:00-- a --

KELLY: Slit-trench?

BRUMMETT: Yeah. And so I went to -- I thought I had dysentery, and I went to one of these trenches one day and just happened to look down, and my stool was working just like this, you know? And so I went up to Dr-- . Dr. Poweleit and I told him I had pinworms. He said, "How in the hell do you know?" He said, "Are you a doctor?" [Chuckle] I said, "No, but I got a little common sense." [Chuckle Brummett] And he said -- oh, he asked me, he said, "How do you know you got dysentery?" I said, "Pinworms" And I said, "Well, when your stool gets up and walks off, what is that?" He said, "That's pinworms." [Chuckle Brummett and Kelly] So he gave me a dose of castor oil and I said, "Well, I don't want to go that way. I don't need 01:36:00no castor oil. I want something to stop this." And he told me to keep my damn mouth shut and come back up the next day at two o'clock, and I did. He gave me one little pill, and that checked it, and he said, "You be back up tomorrow at two o'clock again." I went back up and he had another little pill for me, and the next day we surrendered. So I didn't get my full dose of that.

KELLY: Yeah, Dr. Poweleit. He -- you know, he had some infantry training and -- and he studied up on his tanks, so he -- he wasn't like an ordinary doctor where he didn't know a thing that was going on. [Chuckle--Brummett] He -- he moved around quite a bit in that outfit, didn't he, as you all were coming back?

BRUMMETT: He sure did and he was a prince of a man. I think every person in the -- the outfit thought a lot of Dr. Poweleit, and since his retirement he's written two books. I don't know whether you're aware of that or not.

KELLY: Yeah, The 192nd. Yeah.

BRUMMETT: And USAFFE. He wrote 01:37:00that one.

KELLY: Yeah. So you saw him as you were -- as you were retrograded back from [cough] -- from Lingayen Gulf. You were bumping into him from time to time?

BRUMMETT: Oh, yeah.

KELLY: He moved around a lot, didn't he?

BRUMMETT: He sure did. Yeah, he was a very conscientious doctor, I thought.

KELLY: He -- he -- he wasn't -- he wasn't too -- he -- he didn't seem to have any fear much. He -- he -- he exposed himself several times.

BRUMMETT: He sure did. Where there was a sick person, Dr. Poweleit was there, and I think he got an award or something.

KELLY: For rescuing that guy out of a river.

BRUMMETT: Yeah, that's right. I don't whether you would say this is unfortunately or not, but he never did make it to Japan after the surrender. I think he had a -- a couple of boats shot out from under him and they swam to shore, and he got as far as Taiwan and that's where he stayed for the duration of the war. 01:38:00 And --

KELLY: Let's -- go ahead.

BRUMMETT: -- and I think he was wounded a couple of times. But his figures and my figures don't coincide with one another.

KELLY: On what?

BRUMMETT: How many Americans was on Bataan and Corregidor. He says 38,000 in one of his books, and I was always told there was 18,000 on Bataan and 10,000 on Corregidor, and that's about the size of the New York Police Department. And I was going to tell you this a few minutes ago. The Japanese had this on the drawing board to take Bataan January the 15th of 1942, but instead we held out until April the 9th of -- of 1942, and that gave Australia 01:39:00time enough to regroup and build the forces up on -- on Australia. And it also cut the Japanese supply line, and we knew that, that they had to have Corregidor at any cost.

KELLY: You -- you knew that while you were fighting in Bataan?

BRUMMETT: Well, we knew that after the surrender.

KELLY: And how did you get that information?

BRUMMETT: Well, --

KELLY: Did they tell you?

BRUMMETT: -- because that was a shipping lane to Manila.

KELLY: Was -- was that because -- did somebody tell you that in a prison camp, or where did you get the information?

BRUMMETT: Oh, we was just sitting around talking about it, you know.

KELLY: In a prison camp?

BRUMMETT: They would have to have Corregidor, you know, --

KELLY: Yeah.

BRUMMETT: -- or Bataan wouldn't have been no use to them --

KELLY: Yeah.

BRUMMETT: -- if they didn't have Corregidor --

KELLY: Right.

BRUMMETT: -- they you couldn't get their ships in and out.

KELLY: Right, it blocked that lane there.

BRUMMETT: And --

KELLY: Let's -- let's go 01:40:00through the surrender. Have you got any other combat action you want to talk about before the surrender?

BRUMMETT: No, I think I've talked about about all the combat action.

KELLY: All right. On -- on the surrender, you're going to get up and you're going to get orders saying, "We're going to surrender." That's -- that's how you're going to know about it, isn't it?

BRUMMETT: Well, about two o'clock, three o'clock, four o'clock one morning, I'm not sure of the time, we got orders out to destroy everything, all the ammunition, and we had to dig holes.

KELLY: Let me -- let me push you up just a little bit further. As you're fighting in Bataan, are -- are you and the other troops beginning -- becoming aware of the fact that -- that you're going to be --

BRUMMETT: Well, I'll think back --

KELLY: -- that they're going to either capture you or kill you?

BRUMMETT: Well, we thought that in two ways. In our subconscious mind, I think, we knew we had to surrender, and we really thought that after we was 01:41:00captured they would kill us.

KELLY: What made you think that?

BRUMMETT: [Cough] Excuse me. We had heard so much about the Japanese and how brutal they were.

KELLY: Well, I mean, you'd seen evidence of the brutality. [Cough-Brummett] [Interruption in taping] A minute ago you -- you were talking about -- you knew that the Japs were brutal, and I was saying you'd seen evidence because you said that you had seen where you all had recaptured some of the territory you'd fought over. You'd seen where they'd driven stakes -- splinters in their eyes, or what do you call it --

BRUMMETT: [Cough] Cut them out. They'd take a bayonet and cut them out.

KELLY: Cut their eyes out?

BRUMMETT: That's right. And cut their ears off, cut their tongues off, and brutal things like that. So we figured [cough] --

KELLY: Just before the surrender, now, your feelings and your fears and your knowledge of what's going on?

BRUMMETT: Well, I think, like I said, in our subconscious mind we knew that we wasn't going to get any troops, and we knew that the Japanese had us outnumbered. Well, I've heard different stories on it, ten to one, five to one, you know.

KELLY: Whatever, it didn't matter. You -- you knew you were in trouble?

BRUMMETT: We sure did.

KELLY: You'd run out of ammunition. You were short on food.

BRUMMETT: That's right.

KELLY: A lot of the troops are sick.

BRUMMETT: That's right.

KELLY: So you -- you -- you can see that there -- and you're -- you're kind of aware MacArthur is gone. By the way, did that bother you when MacArthur left?

BRUMMETT: No, not a bit. Wainwright was a much better general, I thought at the time, than MacArthur.

KELLY: Yeah.

BRUMMETT: But Gen. Wainwright never did get out, you know. He surrendered with his troops.

KELLY: All right.

BRUMMETT: I've heard the story that Washington ordered him out of there and he said, "No, my place is here with my troops."

KELLY: Yeah. All right. As -- as you -- as you kind of feel the -- you know, you're sitting there, you're winning this big battle at [Churian?] in that horseshoe or -- not the horseshoe, yeah, the horseshoe formation --

BRUMMETT: Yeah.

KELLY: -- where they -- where they had the Japanese amphibious landing to the rear and you're going to destroy those Japs, but you know that -- that the forces are being driven back, you know you're running out of ammunition, you know your food source is very scarce, and you know the troops are in bad health. A lot of them have malaria and so forth and so on. Your thoughts, now, about this thing. Are -- are you going to think about it? Are you going to think, "Well, we're going to be captured," or -- or is the morale low, your morale low?

BRUMMETT: Yeah, the morale was pretty low, and even after the surrender it was even lower than that.

KELLY: Yeah. I still want to get you right before it now and then we'll get to the surrender. Are you all talking back and forth? 01:44:00Are you saying, "By God, we're going to --

BRUMMETT: Yeah.

KELLY: -- going to give up?"

BRUMMETT: Yeah, we was talking.

KELLY: What do you -- what are you -- what are you saying? Are you going to say, "We'll fight to the last man," or --

BRUMMETT: Well, we're not going to get any troops. We're not going to get no ships, and so we might as well --

KELLY: Are -- are you mad? Are you mad at the [inaudible]?

BRUMMETT: No, kind of disgusted because we knew the strength of the United States Army. We knew the strength of the Navy. We knew the strength of our Air Force. Even though the Japanese had the largest navy in the world.

KELLY: You -- you thought it would -- that the U.S. ought to have enough stuff coming to your aid?

BRUMMETT: That's right.

KELLY: Did you think they just kind of let you down deliberately or --

BRUMMETT: No, --

KELLY: Just figured that -- what'd you figure?

BRUMMETT: Well, you know, anyone in any nation that controls the Philippine Islands controls the South Pacific. That's the way I -- I look at it. And now I thought well, we control the South Pacific.

KELLY: You thought it was important for us to keep it?

BRUMMETT: That's right, I did.

KELLY: You were thinking that -- you were thinking that at the time, or was it something --

BRUMMETT: I was thinking that at -- at the time.

KELLY: And you thought, "Well, they're going to -- they've got to come in and reinforce us," --

BRUMMETT: That's right.

KELLY: -- until right toward the bitter end now, and then all of a sudden it dawned on you they're not.

BRUMMETT: That's right.

KELLY: All right. Then -- then you start talking among the troops, and -- and what were you all -- what are you saying to each other?

BRUMMETT: Well, we was thinking -- saying about what the Japanese are going to do to us, and -- and a lot of the guys are saying, "Well, if we surrender, I'm going to leave one gun in my .45 automatic -- one bullet." And they did.

KELLY: Did some of them -- some of them commit suicide, do you think?

BRUMMETT: No, they didn't commit suicide. What they did when we was ordered to [cough] --

KELLY: That's all right. Try again, that little swig of wat--- [chuckle] tea, there, went down 01:46:00the wrong pipe. Don't worry about it, and if we need to stop again, we'll stop again. Your -- we're trying to capture this feeling of you and your troops and your peers just before the surrender when you all of a sudden become aware of the fact that you're gonna, and you just got through saying that some of them said that they're going to have to keep a bullet in their -- in their gun for themselves or two bullets, one for the Jap and for one for --

BRUMMETT: That's right. Well, prior to that, prior to the surrender, we knew that-and I think about the 1st of April-that we wasn't going to get any reinforcements. If we was going to get reinforcements, they'd already been there. And, of course, the Japanese sent that crack army from Singapore, and in twelve days they had us whipped. And that's when Gen. King surrendered Bataan. Well, --

KELLY: At -- at this point in time, what's your physical condition? You've lost some weight because --

BRUMMETT: I lost down to about 130 pounds.

KELLY: How -- how much food are you getting? I mean, you said you'd gone some days without eating, maybe -- maybe as many as three days without eating a bite?

BRUMMETT: Oh, yeah, sometimes three days, and sometimes you'd eat three meals a day, but that was very seldom. [Cough]

KELLY: Was this doing without food, was this because of the shortage of food or because of your fighting condition because you were in the tanks and you couldn't be re-supplied?

BRUMMETT: [Cough] Excuse me. [Cough] Excuse me. [Interruption in taping]

KELLY: A bullet -- saving a bullet just before the surrender.

BRUMMETT: Well, when we surrendered, the surrender had taken place -- had taken effect April the 9th, 1942, at seven o'clock, and we was supposed to have everything destroyed.

KELLY: At seven o'clock in the morning?

BRUMMETT: Seven o'clock in the morning, and most of the guys said they wasn't going to surrender, if the Japanese treat them too bad that they kept one bullet in their Army .45. And then we was ordered to destroy everything. We dismantled our .45s and threw them away. Some guys buried them, and I'm one of the guys. I buried mine in a -- a gallon of grease, wrapped it up in a cloth. And so the rumor came through that same morning, April the 9th at about ten o'clock, that if we could hold out three more days we'd get reinforcements from Australia. So in 01:49:00thirty minutes' time, every man had a gun that would fire, and they was willing to fight to the last man. And that was originally Gen. Wainwright's orders that we would fight to the last man, and I think every troop on Bataan, Corregidor, was willing to do that, but we was getting slaughtered so bad.

KELLY: I didn't know that. I -- I didn't know that, that -- that there was a rumor that the Aussies are coming and you all went and recouped your guns and you're going to fight to the last man.

BRUMMETT: Yes, sir. It sure was. And I --

KELLY: Well, was -- was that -- was that a widespread rumor or just in your immediate company or do you know?

BRUMMETT: You could start a rumor. I could --

KELLY: Well, I mean in this case, are you talking about most everybody that -- are you just talking about a few that you know of?

BRUMMETT: No, I'm talking about just about everyone that I was around that I knew.

KELLY: And -- and how big a group are you talking about?

BRUMMETT: Oh, I'm talking about --

KELLY: You're talking more than Headquarters Company?

BRUMMETT: Oh, yes, I'm talking about 200 or 300 people.

KELLY: You're talking more than the 192nd?

BRUMMETT: Yeah.

KELLY: They all heard that and all went --