Interview with Claude Shaw, August 14, 1985

Partial Transcript: Okay, uh, Claude, let's, uh, let's begin I--well let me back up a second. You were born in Tennessee down around Reelfoot Lake you said.

Segment Synopsis: Claude Shaw describes his early life in West Tennessee near Reelfoot Lake where there were few job opportunities. He talks about being drafted in 1957 and deployed to Germany. He says he loved the military in spite of a bad tour in Germany. He says he first heard of Vietnam from a returning soldier at Fort Riley in Kansas. He talks about his reasons for applying to flight school and his first deployment to Vietnam. He talks about his disillusionment over the politics behind the Vietnam conflict.

Keywords: 1st Infantry Division; Cryptography; Flight school; Fort Riley (Kan.); Germany; Reelfoot Lake (Tenn.); Turkey; Vietnam

Subjects: Draft.; Military education.; Politics and war.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975

Partial Transcript: Um, tell me about your reaction about finding out you were going to Vietnam and about your trip over and some of your first impressions of Vietnam as a country.

Segment Synopsis: Shaw talks about his first deployment to Vietnam after flight school and his initial impressions of the country as a beautiful place. He recalls that the pilots in his group were all career military. He says he arrived first at Cam Ranh Bay and then went to An Khe. He talks about the transition process as a new combat helicopter pilot and becoming an aircraft commander.

Keywords: 1st Cavalry Division; 229 Aviation Battallion; Aircraft commanders; An Khê (Vietnam); Cam Ranh (Vietnam); Cam Ranh Bay (Vietnam); Central highlands; Delta Company; Honolulu (Hawaii); Pleiku (Vietnam); Vietnam

Subjects: Air bases.; Helicopter pilots; Military life.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975

Partial Transcript: What kind of helicopter were you flying? Tell me, uh--describe that for me.

Segment Synopsis: Shaw talks about flying a UH-1 Bell Iroquois "Huey" helicopter during his first tour of Vietnam. He talks about helicopter combat tactics and missions he flew. He talks about getting shot down on a combat mission on August 6, 1966, and breaking his jaw during the crash landing. He recalls being "scared to death" during his first combat mission.

Keywords: Artillery fire; Call signs; Cobra helicopter; Combat missions; Copilots; Crew chiefs; Diamond formation; Drive shaft; Gunners; Machine guns; Operations tents; Rocket pods; Trail formation; UH-1 helicopter

Subjects: Combat.; Helicopter pilots; Military helicopters; Tactics; Vietnam War, 1961-1975; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Aerial operations, American.; Wounds and injuries.

Partial Transcript: Claude, how old were you when you went on your first tour?

Segment Synopsis: Claude recalls that at 27 he was somewhat old for a military helicopter pilot. He talks about the characteristics of typical helicopter pilots and about their comraderie.

Keywords: 1st Cavalry Division; Distinguished Flying Cross; Volunteer

Subjects: Attitude (Psychology); Helicopter pilots; Vietnam War, 1961-1975

Partial Transcript: Let me ask you this Claude, you, you were out on these missions, it was tense, it was, was rough, and you were flying a lot of hours.

Segment Synopsis: Shaw talks about how he and other pilots dealt with the stress of flying combat missions. He talks about his hopes of obtaining a professional baseball contract. He says he does not recall ever seeing drugs or drug use at the base. He says that his fellow pilots were all professionals.

Keywords: 101 rations; 7th Cavalry; Alcohol; Baseball; Drugs; Shaving cream; Smoke grenades

Subjects: Air bases.; Combat.; Drug abuse; Helicopter pilots; Leisure.; Military life.; Morale.; Stress (Psychology); Vietnam War, 1961-1975; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Psychological aspects

Partial Transcript: Looking back again at your first tour, were there positive things about your experience over there that--I mean were there things that you benefited from?

Segment Synopsis: Shaw says that most pilots logged over 1000 hours of flying time and he thinks this was a benefit to his military career. He talks about his impressions of the country and the people of Vietnam. He talks about his unfavorable impression of the Vietnamese soldiers.

Keywords: Career soldiers; Communists; Helicopters; Ho Chi Minh; North Vietnamese Army; South Vietnamese Army; Viet Cong; Vietnam

Subjects: Attitude (Psychology); Helicopter pilots; Vietnam War, 1961-1975; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Aerial operations, American.

Partial Transcript: Did, uh, did you have a family back in the States when you were over there?

Segment Synopsis: Shaw talks about his marriage shortly after joining the Army and his dedication to his family. He recalls that he never mentioned the war during his daily letters home. He says his family knew he was injured when his daily letters abruptly stopped. He talks about tracking his first tour on a "short timer's" calendar. Shaw recalls that all of his decorations were earned during his first tour, and that he worked exclusively with Americans during that tour. He says that pilots were routinely returned to subsequent tours as long as they were healthy.

Keywords: Army wife; Decorations; Honors; Letters; Mail; Vietnam

Subjects: Correspondence.; Family life.; Helicopter pilots; Vietnam War, 1961-1975; Wounds and injuries.

Partial Transcript: Okay. Uh, I want to come back to your, uh, your awards and, and medals. Uh, uh, I, I, was there a chance that they would want you just to stay in Vietnam for another tour without coming back?

Segment Synopsis: Shaw talks about coming home on a thirty day leave and learning about the protests going on at home while he had been gone. He talks about how he dealt with the lack of support from the public and from his father. Shaw repeats some of his story due to technical issues.

Keywords: Civilian clothes; Fathers; Homecoming; Honors; One year tour; San Francisco (Calif.); Tactical training officers; Thirty day leave

Subjects: Family life.; Leisure.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Protest movements--United States; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Public opinion; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Social aspects.

Partial Transcript: You went to Texas and you were teaching pilots--

Segment Synopsis: Shaw talks about being a flight instructor and what he taught the new pilots about what to expect in Vietnam. He talks about how he felt when he got his orders to return to Vietnam.

Keywords: Closeness; Cooperation; Discpline; Instruction; Texas; Training; Vietnam

Subjects: Helicopter pilots; Military education.; Military life.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975.

Partial Transcript: How did you feel when you got--sixteen months in Texas, you get orders to go back to Vietnam. How did you feel?

Segment Synopsis: Shaw talks about how he felt when he got his orders to return to Vietnam. He talks about how the war had changed since he had been gone.

Keywords: Amenities; Buildings; Camaraderie; Changes; Commanders; Deployment; Differences; Morale; Pride; Terrain; Troops

Subjects: Attitude (Psychology); Helicopter pilots; Leisure.; Military helicopters; Military life.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Equipment and supplies.

Partial Transcript: It's--people have said that toward the end of the war there was more drinking, more drugs. What--did you see that or not?

Segment Synopsis: Shaw says that during his second tour of Vietnam he saw more drug and alcohol abuse than during his first tour. He recalls that his instructor pilot had been drinking the night before and an engine failure during takeoff prompted him to jettison an artillery piece. He talks about bad morale among military personnel due to changing politics of the conflict.

Keywords: "Search and evade"; Artillery; Bible study; Civilian technical representative; Drugs; Inspections; Marijuana

Subjects: Attitude (Psychology); Drug abuse; Helicopter pilots; Morale.; Politics and war.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Psychological aspects; Vietnam War, 1961-1975.

Partial Transcript: Claude, tell me about your--the time you got shot down and, and wounded. Uh, just kinda describe what that was like and h, and h--

Segment Synopsis: Shaw talks about the incident during which he was shot down and wounded on August 4, 1969. He describes a routine mission to recover a downed Air Force pilot who was just beyond the end of the runway due to an engine failure at takeoff. He says that after picking up the pilot while making a low hover a Viet Cong soldier in black pajamas fired on his helicopter with a machine gun wounding both pilots. He talks about the irony of getting wounded so close to his base and describes the gunshot wound to his knee. He describes the medical care he received after being wounded.

Keywords: Binh Thuy Air Base (Vietnam); Black pajamas; Chest protectors; Flight logs; Fuel bladders; Helmets; Japan; Mobile Army Surgical Hospital (MASH); Morphine; Operations tents; Pistols; Prisoners of War (POWs); Rice paddy

Subjects: Air bases.; Helicopter pilots; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Medical care.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975.; Wounds and injuries.

Partial Transcript: Of course it was much different coming home the second time, wounded than coming home the first time. What, what was it like coming home the second time?

Segment Synopsis: Shaw talks about his experiences returning to Scott Air Force Base to convalesce after he was wounded. He recalls that he received good treatment at the hospital, but civilians were still either hostile to returning veterans or indifferent to the Vietnam conflict. He talks about his bitter disappointment and frustration over this. He talks about his assignment first as an aircraft maintenance officer and then assisting in military funerals because he could not fly due to his knee injury. He talks about resisting efforts to force his medical retirement and his sense of fulfillment performing funeral duty until he had to bury his former roommate. He says then he determined either to resign from the Army or get help. He talks about spending the next nine months in psychiatric treatment.

Keywords: Aircraft maintenance officers; American Legion; Aviators; Burial detail; Chicago (Ill.); Echo taps; Fort Riley (Kan.); Medical retirement; Military funerals; Prison camps; Scott Air Force Base (Ill.); Silver taps; Test pilots

Subjects: Health issues; Hospitals.; Military discharge; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Psychological aspects; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Public opinion; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Social aspects.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975.; Wounds and injuries.

Partial Transcript: You were telling me earlier about the, uh, conversation you had recently with the World War II reunion.

Segment Synopsis: Shaw talks about a recent veterans' reunion during which a World War II veteran criticized Vietnam veterans for "being insane" or wanting money or sympathy. He talks about the differences between the experiences of returning veterans from the different wars. He says he is 20% disabled which is deducted from his retirement pay. He talks about his employment in civil service and deductions due to his military retirement.

Keywords: 38th Parallel; Agent Orange; Battle of the Bulge; Front lines; Home front; Korean War; Parades; Prisoners of War (POWs); Veterans Administration; Veterans' reunion; Vietnam War; World War II

Subjects: Combat.; Korean War, 1950-1953--Veterans; Military pay; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Psychological aspects; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Public opinion; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Social aspects.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans--United States; World War, 1939-1945--Veterans.; Wounds and injuries.

Partial Transcript: Why do you think that the attitude toward the Vietnam veteran has begun to change in the last few years?

Segment Synopsis: Shaw talks about the recent changing public perceptions of Vietnam veterans which he thinks originates with the veterans themselves. He talks about public animosity toward veterans and the actions of some soldiers like Lt. William Calley. He discusses the reasons why the Vietnam veteran experience is different from others and the challenges to the Vietnam veteran. He expresses no regrets for his service and a willingness to serve again in spite of mistakes made in managing the conflict.

Keywords: "Hippies"; Grenade; Helicopter; Lt. William Calley

Subjects: Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Public opinion; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Social aspects.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans--United States

Partial Transcript: What do you tell your daughters about the war? How do you explain Vietnam to them?

Segment Synopsis: Shaw talks about how the Vietnam conflict should be considered in the context of the other wars fought by the United States. He expresses sympathy and understanding for the Vietnamese people after witnessing their struggles first hand. He expresses admiration for Richard Nixon but not for Lyndon Johnson. He says that whatever the country does in defense is justified by the need for survival. He describes the military decorations he received during his career.

Keywords: Air Medal; Army Commendation Medal; Bronze Star; Capital punishment; Central Intelligence Agency (CIA); Civil War; Distinguish Flying Cross; Lyndon Johnson; Purple Heart; Richard Nixon; Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry; Village; Walker Spy Ring; Watergate

Subjects: Politics and war.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Evacuation of civilians.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans--United States; Vietnam War, 1961-1975.