Interview with Thomas D. Clark, March 18, 1986

Partial Transcript: Well, um, when we, uh--I'm trying to pick up where we left off here.

Segment Synopsis: Thomas D. Clark talks about the beginning of the court case Lyman T. Johnson brought against the University of Kentucky for discrimination by not allowing African American students to register. Clark talks about Johnson's qualifications to attend the university, and discusses some of the people involved in the case.

Keywords: Court summons; Depositions; Dr. Bennett Wall; Dr. James Tuthill; General Holiefield; Jury duty; Lyman T. Johnson; PhD; Qualifications; Registering; Registrar; Thurgood Marshall

Subjects: African American college students--Social conditions; African Americans--Civil rights--Kentucky; African Americans--Education (Higher); African Americans--Legal status, laws, etc.; Civil rights--Law and legislation--Kentucky; College integration; College students, Black; Discrimination in education.; Discrimination--Law and legislation--Kentucky; Educational law and legislation--Kentucky; Johnson, Lyman T., 1906-1997; Lexington (Ky.)--Race relations.; Race discrimination.; Segregation in higher education.; United States--Trials, litigation, etc.; Universities and colleges--Admission

Partial Transcript: When the trial day came up there had been a great deal of talk--the, there was, as you can imagine, sentiment running both ways.

Segment Synopsis: Clark talks about the day of the trial, and says much of he day was spent on an issue involving the creation of a separate law school for African American students. He talks about President Donovan's reactions at the trial, and talks about the decisions the court made.

Keywords: Angry; Attitudes; Bench decision; Dr. Herman Donovan; Frankfort (Ky.); Funding; Judge Ford; Kentucky State University; Quality of education; Separate law school; Special courses

Subjects: African American college students--Social conditions; African Americans--Civil rights--Kentucky; African Americans--Education (Higher); African Americans--Legal status, laws, etc.; Civil rights--Law and legislation--Kentucky; College administrators; College integration; College presidents; College students, Black; College teachers--Social conditions; Discrimination in education.; Discrimination--Law and legislation--Kentucky; Educational law and legislation--Kentucky; Johnson, Lyman T., 1906-1997; Lexington (Ky.)--Race relations.; Race discrimination.; Segregation in higher education.; United States--Trials, litigation, etc.; Universities and colleges--Accreditation.; Universities and colleges--Administration.; Universities and colleges--Admission; Universities and colleges--Faculty.; University of Kentucky

Partial Transcript: After the court was over--I had gotten to know Lyman Johnson, those long deposition sessions.

Segment Synopsis: Clark talks about Johnson's abilities as a student at the University of Kentucky, and discusses the talk he had with Johnson once he was accepted at the university. He describes Johnson's personality.

Keywords: Attitudes; Confident; Expectations; Lyman T. Johnson; Personality; Standards; Transcripts

Subjects: African American college students--Social conditions; African Americans--Education (Higher); College integration; College students, Black; College teachers--Social conditions; Educators; Johnson, Lyman T., 1906-1997; Lexington (Ky.)--Race relations.; Race discrimination.; Universities and colleges--Admission; Universities and colleges--Faculty.

Partial Transcript: I wa--I wanted to ask you, uh, up until this point--now I know, I know ba--in, in the fifties you, you gave a lot of lectures and you, you, uh, you wrote some articles that appeared, uh, in newspapers...

Segment Synopsis: Clark talks about his own views on race, discrimination, and racism, especially concerning how the South needed to change in order to succeed.

Keywords: "The Emerging South"; Brown v. Board of Education; Civil rights issues; New York Times; Phi Beta Kappa fraternity; South

Subjects: African Americans--Segregation; African Americans--Social conditions.; African Americans--Southern States.; Integration; Race discrimination.; Racism; United States--Race relations.

Partial Transcript: Well--(coughs)--Lyman Johnson came here at the University of Kentucky.

Segment Synopsis: Clark talks about how the UK faculty reacted when the court decided to allow African American students to enroll at the university. He talks about President Donovan's suggestion of a seating arrangement in the classrooms, and talks about how the Day Law affected the university's decision to integrate.

Keywords: Abilities; Attitudes; College classes; Day Law; Discussions; Dr. Albert Kirwan; Dr. Herman Donovan; Faculty meetings; General Holiefield; Judge Ford; Lexington Herald Leader; Lyman T. Johnson; Newspaper articles; Quality; Seating arrangements; William H. Townsend

Subjects: African American college students--Social conditions; African Americans--Civil rights--Kentucky; African Americans--Education (Higher); African Americans--Legal status, laws, etc.; Civil rights--Law and legislation--Kentucky; College administrators; College environment; College integration; College presidents; College students, Black; College teachers--Social conditions; Discrimination in education.; Discrimination--Law and legislation--Kentucky; Educational law and legislation--Kentucky; Educators; Johnson, Lyman T., 1906-1997; Lexington (Ky.)--Race relations.; Race discrimination.; Segregation in higher education.; United States--Trials, litigation, etc.; Universities and colleges--Administration.; Universities and colleges--Admission; Universities and colleges--Faculty.

Partial Transcript: Now the University of Kentucky, and I want to make a strong point of this: they did the right thing.

Segment Synopsis: Clark talks about how the outside community reacted to the integration of the University of Kentucky. Clark says the people were tired of the many cases happening around the country and were ready to integrate and move on.

Keywords: Acceptance; Barriers; Court cases; Day Law; Editorials; Lexington community; Liability; Media coverage; Public opinion; Publicity

Subjects: African Americans--Civil rights; African Americans--Education (Higher); African Americans--Legal status, laws, etc.; Civil rights--Law and legislation; Discrimination in education.; Discrimination--Law and legislation; Educational law and legislation; Johnson, Lyman T., 1906-1997; Lexington (Ky.)--Race relations.; Race discrimination.; United States--Trials, litigation, etc.

Partial Transcript: Well when we brought Johnson versus the University out here to the campus to begin the real nitty-gritty of application--

Segment Synopsis: Clark talks about members of the Board of Trustees and their opinions on whether the university should appeal the Lyman Johnson case. He talks about President Donovan's recommendations to the board, and the board's final decision.

Keywords: Appeals; Arguments; Board of trustees; Court cases; Dr. Herman Donovan; Governor Earle C. Clements; Judge Richard Stoll; Motivation; Outcome; Practicality; Recommendations

Subjects: African American college students--Social conditions; African Americans--Civil rights--Kentucky; African Americans--Education (Higher); African Americans--Legal status, laws, etc.; Civil rights--Law and legislation--Kentucky; College administrators; College integration; College presidents; College students, Black; Discrimination in education.; Discrimination--Law and legislation--Kentucky; Educational law and legislation--Kentucky; Race discrimination.; Segregation in higher education.; United States--Trials, litigation, etc.; Universities and colleges--Administration.; Universities and colleges--Admission

Partial Transcript: Then came Brown versus School Board.

Segment Synopsis: Clark talks about changes in attitude about race issues that occurred after the Brown v. Board of Education case. He talks more about the Day Law and how it affected the university. He says that having an African American Ph.D student in the history department would have benefited the department.

Keywords: Attitudes; Brown v. Board of Education; Changes; Day Law; Dean Martin White; Dr. Herman Donovan; Harlan County (Ky.); History department; India; Leo Chamberlain; Parents; PhD; Planning; Repeals; Reputation

Subjects: African American college students--Social conditions; African Americans--Civil rights--Kentucky; African Americans--Education (Higher); African Americans--Legal status, laws, etc.; Civil rights--Law and legislation--Kentucky; College administrators; College environment; College integration; College presidents; College students, Black; Discrimination in education.; Discrimination--Law and legislation--Kentucky; Educational law and legislation--Kentucky; Lexington (Ky.)--Race relations.; Race discrimination.; Segregation in higher education.; United States--Trials, litigation, etc.; Universities and colleges--Administration.; Universities and colleges--Admission; Universities and colleges--Faculty.; Universities and colleges--Ratings and rankings.

Partial Transcript: We ta, talked about the in--Johnson not staying on getting his degree and, uh, the long time it took then to have a, a Black student get a graduate degree in history here.

Segment Synopsis: Clark talks about the lack of African American faculty members at the University of Kentucky. He describes the lawyers that worked on the case of Lyman Johnson v. the University of Kentucky, Thurgood Marshall and General Hollifield.

Keywords: Abilities; Attorney General; Availability; Difficulty; Discrimination cases; General Holiefield; History department; Lawyers; Personality; PhD; Prejudice; Preparation; Thurgood Marshall

Subjects: African Americans--Civil rights--Kentucky; African Americans--Education (Higher); African Americans--Legal status, laws, etc.; Civil rights--Law and legislation--Kentucky; College integration; College students, Black; College teachers, Black; College teachers--Social conditions; Discrimination in education.; Discrimination--Law and legislation--Kentucky; Educational law and legislation--Kentucky; Educators; Race discrimination.; Segregation in higher education.; United States--Trials, litigation, etc.; Universities and colleges--Admission; Universities and colleges--Faculty.

Partial Transcript: Um, course you've written so much about the South and your, your historical writings are available to, to a lot of people to, to look at.

Segment Synopsis: Clark talks about his experiences with race relations and witnessing racism as a child growing up in Mississippi, and talks about his relationships with African Americans. He talks about the fear of race riots and lynchings in the area. He talks about his experiences with race relations after he moved to Kentucky.

Keywords: Community; Contact; Family patterns; Fathers; Fear; Justice; Kentucky; Leadership; Lynching; Mississippi; Poverty; Prejudice; Race riots; Relationships; Treatment; Violence; White society

Subjects: African Americans--Crimes against.; African Americans--Segregation; African Americans--Social conditions.; African Americans--Southern States.; Race discrimination.; Racism; United States--Race relations.

Partial Transcript: Uh, y, you know, again, I, I, I keep looking at this as, uh, you know, as looking at, at you as a southern historian coming out of the deep South.

Segment Synopsis: Clark talks more about his views on race relations and racism, again in regard to the South. He talks about where his beliefs may have come from, and talks about race in the world of academia.

Keywords: Academics; Barriers; Beliefs; Inhumanity; Injustice; Lynching; Mississippi; Prejudice; Relationships; South Carolina; Unfair

Subjects: African Americans--Crimes against.; African Americans--Segregation; African Americans--Social conditions.; African Americans--Southern States.; College environment; College teachers--Social conditions; Integration; Race discrimination.; Racism; United States--Race relations.

Partial Transcript: You come back--you know you keep coming back to the term "leadership" and as a person who, who looked at the South, as I've stated before, during this century to try and monitor its progress...

Segment Synopsis: Clark talks about the differences in race relations in the North and South, and talks about the difficulty of trying to solve racial issues. The interview is concluded.

Keywords: Baltimore (Md.); Booker T. Washington papers; Economic opportunities; Incentives; Leadership; Problems; Progress; South

Subjects: African American leadership; African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States; African Americans--Economic conditions.; African Americans--Social conditions.; African Americans--Southern States.; Race discrimination.; Racism; United States--Race relations.