Interview with Charles C. Jones, September 2, 1986

Partial Transcript: Good morning.

Segment Synopsis: Mrs. Charles Chenault Jones is introduced. She talks about her family background. She talks about her parents' birthplaces and marriage, and her grandparents' ancestors. She talks about her knowledge of her ancestors' time as slaves in the house of a White family. She talks about her mother's schooling to become a teacher.

Keywords: Ancestors; Anna Chenault; Black teachers; Brutus Chenault; Chandler Normal School; Cherokee; Cost; Domestic work; Fathers; Georgetown Street; Grandfathers; Grandmothers; Grandparents; Maids; Married; Money; Mothers; Newspapers; Parents; Private schools; Schools; Sisters; Skin color; Slave masters; Slaves; White ancestors

Subjects: African American families; African Americans--Education.; African Americans--Marriage.; Education--Study and teaching; Estill County (Ky.); Genealogy; Lexington (Ky.); Madison County (Ky.); Richmond (Ky.); Slavery--United States.; Teachers--Kentucky

Partial Transcript: Where did your grandmother live?

Segment Synopsis: Jones talks about how her grandmother came to own her own home, and discusses her grandmother's relation to a White family. She talks about her mother's motivation to be a community activist and her emphasis on education. She describes going to visit her grandmother as a child. She talks about the jobs her grandmother held and the types of recreation her grandmother participated in.

Keywords: Acceptance; Activists; Baptist churches; Bread pudding; Community; Cooking; Domestic work; Food; Friends; Grandmothers; Home ownership; Houses; Ladies Art Club; Martin Todd; Meals; Mothers; Native Americans; Playing cards; Quilts; Race Street (Richmond, Ky.); Radio; Sewing; Stories; Todd family; Uncles; Visiting; White relatives; Women's Improvement Club; Working

Subjects: African American churches--Kentucky; African American families; African American leadership; African Americans--Conduct of life.; African Americans--Education.; African Americans--Employment.; African Americans--Housing.; African Americans--Recreation; African Americans--Social conditions.; African Americans--Societies, etc.; Childhood; Genealogy; Richmond (Ky.); United States--Race relations.

Partial Transcript: Now what your mother do for recreation? Your mom and father?

Segment Synopsis: Jones talks about her father's work with the church. She talks about her father working on the family farm, and the types of food her family grew and preserved. She describes church "basket meetings."

Keywords: "Basket meetings"; Chickens; Dinners; Family farms; Fathers; Food; Gardens; Gender roles; Great Depression; Growing food; Hogs; Home ownership; Jobs; Meat; Mothers; Neighborhood atmosphere; Saint Paul African Methodist Episcopal Church (Saint Paul A.M.E.); Sausages; Smokehouses; Whitehall; Working

Subjects: African American churches--Kentucky; African American families; African Americans--Conduct of life.; African Americans--Employment.; African Americans--Housing.; African Americans--Recreation; African Americans--Social conditions.; African Americans--Social life and customs.; Neighborhoods.; Neighborliness; Richmond (Ky.)

Partial Transcript: How many other Blacks found work at the post office during the time your dad worked there?

Segment Synopsis: Jones talks about her father's job at the Richmond Post Office, and discusses the other African Americans that worked there and the types of positions they held. She describes the community in Richmond, Kentucky. She talks about the experience of walking along East Main Street as a child, and going to church, which she says was where most of the activities took place. She talks about segregation at the local theater and restaurants. She talks about the formation of the first school band in town.

Keywords: Bands; Baptist churches; Black mail carriers; Community; Community activities; Custodians; Dogs; Drugstores; East Main Street (Richmond, Ky.); Francis Street (Richmond, Ky.); High school; Mothers; Movie theaters; Music; Post offices; Railroad tracks; Restaurants; Richmond High School; Saint Paul African Methodist Episcopal Church (Saint Paul A.M.E.); Skin color; Stores; Violins

Subjects: African American churches--Kentucky; African American families; African American neighborhoods; African Americans--Conduct of life.; African Americans--Recreation; African Americans--Religion.; African Americans--Segregation; African Americans--Social conditions.; African Americans--Social life and customs.; Childhood; Race discrimination.; United States--Race relations.

Partial Transcript: And then when we got ready to go to college--well, my sister went two years ahead of me.

Segment Synopsis: Jones talks about her sister's education out of state due to segregation laws. She talks about her parents' determination for their children to obtain high quality educations, which she says was a value shared among the entire community. She talks about the other values the parents in the community shared, including supervision of the children and sharing responsibility. She talks about the differences between social classes in the area.

Keywords: American Academy of Music; Berea College; Chaperones; Children; Class system; Community; Discipline; Home ownership; Interaction; Juilliard School; Knoxville College; Less fortunate; Mothers; Parents; Professionals; Prom; Responsibilities; Shared values; Sharing; Sisters; Together

Subjects: African American college students--Social conditions; African American families; African American neighborhoods; African Americans--Conduct of life.; African Americans--Economic conditions.; African Americans--Education (Higher); African Americans--Housing.; African Americans--Social conditions.; African Americans--Social life and customs.; Kentucky State University; Neighborliness

Partial Transcript: How did the people get money at that time to mortgage your house?

Segment Synopsis: Jones talks about some of the jobs held by African Americans in Richmond during her childhood, including doctors, dentists, and morticians. She talks about the African American newspapers that were available at the time. She talks about how the community changed over time.

Keywords: "Louisville Defender"; Changes; Clientele; Dentists; Doctors; Easton; Generations; Hospitals; J.W. Cobb; Mortgages; Morticians; Opportunities; Patients; Professionals; Small towns; Tailors

Subjects: African American business enterprises; African American churches--Kentucky; African American neighborhoods; African American physicians--Kentucky; African Americans--Conduct of life.; African Americans--Employment.; African Americans--Newspapers.; African Americans--Race identity.; African Americans--Social conditions.; Richmond (Ky.)

Partial Transcript: My old school now, for example, which was the center of activity...

Segment Synopsis: Jones talks about the lack of progress in schools from when she was a student to when she became a teacher. She talks about the lack of resources and facilities, and discusses the faculty's reaction to the lack of change. She talks about the quality of education she received in Richmond, and the relationship between teachers and parents at the time.

Keywords: Caring; Community centers; Demands; Discipline; Equipment; Expectations; Facilities; Parents; Quality of education; Relationships; Resources; Richmond High School; Schools

Subjects: African American families; African Americans--Education.; Childhood; Discrimination in education.; Richmond (Ky.); School integration--Kentucky; Teachers--Kentucky; Teaching

Partial Transcript: Now back to the church in the community, what role did your church actually play in your community?

Segment Synopsis: Jones talks about the role of church ministers in the community as a spokesperson who could obtain resources. She talks about the moral obligations ministers were required to uphold and discusses how this has changed over the years.

Keywords: African Methodist Episcopal Church (A.M.E.); Community; Dismissal; Facilitators; Liaisons; Ministers; Moral obligations; Needs; Role models; Salary; Scandals; Spokesperson; Trustees

Subjects: African American churches--Kentucky; African American leadership; African Americans--Conduct of life.; African Americans--Employment.; African Americans--Religion.; African Americans--Social conditions.

Partial Transcript: How does the church differ overall now?

Segment Synopsis: Jones discusses how churches have changed. She mentions the church's lack of involvement in the community, a reluctance to address issues, and a lack of useful assistance for church members.

Keywords: Assistance; Changes; Community involvement; Education; Executive bodies; Hierarchy; Issues; Leadership; Ministers; Political issues; Problems; Role of church; Trends

Subjects: African American churches--Kentucky; African American leadership; African Americans--Religion.; African Americans--Social conditions.

Partial Transcript: Do you see that as a trend? Is this going to keep going on or are we going to get back to that--

Segment Synopsis: Jones discusses how Ronald Reagan's politics have affected the Black community. She gives her definition of "Black bourgeoisie," and discusses the importance of how success is defined within the Black community.

Keywords: Black bourgeoisie; Black organizations; Conservatism; Emphasis; Jobs; Ministers; NAACP (National Association for the Advancement of Colored People); President Ronald Reagan; Professions; Reaganism; Socioeconomic status; Success; Trends; Urban League

Subjects: African Americans--Economic conditions.; African Americans--Politics and government.; African Americans--Social conditions.; African Americans--Societies, etc.

Partial Transcript: Can you tell me if you took part in the revolution?

Segment Synopsis: Jones discusses her participation in the civil rights movement and how it made her feel about the Black community. She talks about Lyman T. Johnson's role in the desegregation of the University of Kentucky which allowed her to attend the school the next year. She talks about the difficulty of being one of the first African American students at UK.

Keywords: Assistance; Barriers; Black organizations; Cross burning; Lyman T. Johnson; Masters degrees; Revolution; University of Kentucky

Subjects: African American college students--Social conditions; African Americans--Civil rights--Kentucky; African Americans--Education (Higher); African Americans--Segregation; African Americans--Social conditions.; Civil rights movements--United States; Civil rights--Law and legislation; Integration; Race discrimination.; Race relations--Kentucky--Lexington; Teachers--Kentucky; Teaching

Partial Transcript: But out there you were faced with every barrier there was.

Segment Synopsis: Jones talks about experiencing discrimination at stores and restaurants in downtown Lexington. She speaks briefly about teaching at an integrated school. She discusses the closing of Lexington businesses in the 1960s due to integration and talks about what became of the Black-owned businesses.

Keywords: Acceptance; Black businesses; Black community; Black neighborhoods; Changes; Closing; Inequity; Patronage; Restaurants; Shopping; Shopping malls; Speech; Stores; The South; Theaters; Withdrawing

Subjects: African American business enterprises; African American neighborhoods; African Americans--Segregation; African Americans--Social conditions.; Integration; Lexington (Ky.)--Race relations.; Race discrimination.; Teachers--Kentucky; Teaching

Partial Transcript: Tell me about the Black community you lived in in Lexington.

Segment Synopsis: Jones talks about the neighborhood she lived in when she first moved to Lexington, around North Upper Street. She talks about how the area has changed over the years due to integration of nearby schools and property being sold by the Black owners.

Keywords: Apartments; Black community; Black doctors; Black neighborhoods; Black-owned; Changes; Constitution Elementary School; Dunbar School; Lawsuits; North Upper Street; Russell Elementary School; Stores; Transylvania University; YWCA

Subjects: African American neighborhoods; African American physicians--Kentucky--Lexington; African Americans--Conduct of life.; African Americans--Education.; African Americans--Housing.; African Americans--Social conditions.; Busing for school integration; Neighborliness; Neighbors; Teachers--Kentucky; Teaching

Partial Transcript: Tell me the typical--tell me the difference or change in your typical Black community now and as you knew it growing up.

Segment Synopsis: Jones discusses the migration of people from places like her original neighborhood on North Upper Street to other Black neighborhoods in Lexington. She talks about how these neighborhoods differ, and says that people do not interact on a daily basis, only at social gatherings. She talks more about what happened to the original Black-owned properties.

Keywords: Apartments; Black community; Black neighborhoods; Black-owned; Camaraderie; Changes; Constitution Elementary School; Friends; Generations; Get-togethers; Homeowners; Housing conditions; Leaving; Moving; Oakwood Estates; Property owners; Selling; Socializing; St. Martin's

Subjects: African American neighborhoods; African Americans--Conduct of life.; African Americans--Housing.; African Americans--Social conditions.; African Americans--Social life and customs.; Neighborliness; Neighbors

Partial Transcript: Now we talked about the church, the community, etcetera, but we didn't get in your educational background.

Segment Synopsis: Jones discusses her educational background after her graduation from high school. She talks about attending Knoxville College with her sister before teaching in Maysville, Kentucky and Richmond, Kentucky while earning her masters degree at the University of Kentucky.

Keywords: Constitution Elementary School; Elementary education; Fathers; John G. Fee High School; Knoxville College; Masters degrees; Maysville (Ky.); Mothers; Richmond (Ky.); Richmond High School; Secondary education; Sisters; Tuition; University of Kentucky; Working

Subjects: African American college students.; African Americans--Education (Higher); African Americans--Education.; Education--Study and teaching; Integration; Teachers--Kentucky; Teaching

Partial Transcript: I continued to teach and, uh, as I said taught a total of 35 years.

Segment Synopsis: Jones talks about her experience being the first Black teacher at Arlington Elementary when it became integrated. She talks about her interactions with the principal, teachers, students, and parents. She describes the first PTA meeting she attended at the integrated school. She talks about the subtle discrimination against the African American students.

Keywords: Acceptance; Arlington Elementary School; Attitudes; Constitution Elementary School; Conversations; Desegregation; Friends; Interactions; Martin Luther King Jr.; Misbehavior; PTA meetings; Parent-Teacher Association; Reactions; Russell Elementary School; School principals; Students; Subtle discrimination; Teachers' lounge

Subjects: African Americans--Education.; African Americans--Social conditions.; Discrimination in education.; Lexington (Ky.)--Race relations.; Race discrimination.; Race relations--Kentucky--Lexington; Racism--Kentucky--Lexington; School integration--Kentucky--Fayette County; Teachers--Kentucky; Teaching

Partial Transcript: What was the socioeconomic status of the community you taught in?

Segment Synopsis: Jones talks about the socioeconomic status of the community served by Arlington Elementary School. She talks about how it changed over time and the consequences of that change.

Keywords: Administration; Attitudes; Changes; Inner city schools; Middle class; Parent-Teacher Association (PTA); Parents; Social classes; Socioeconomic status

Subjects: African American families; African Americans--Economic conditions.; African Americans--Social conditions.

Partial Transcript: So what about the upward mobility of Black teachers in the new integrated school system?

Segment Synopsis: Jones discusses salary differences and opportunities for upward mobility for Black teachers teaching in integrated schools. She discusses why she did not want to become a school administrator.

Keywords: Administration; Black students; Discrepancies in salary; Pay scales; Salary differences; Transylvania University; Upward mobility

Subjects: African Americans--Economic conditions.; African Americans--Education.; African Americans--Employment.; African Americans--Social conditions.; Discrimination in employment.; Race discrimination.; School integration--Kentucky--Fayette County; Teachers--Kentucky; Teaching; Wages.

Partial Transcript: Tell me if you think Blacks are better off today because of integration.

Segment Synopsis: Jones discusses whether she believes the Black community is better or worse off since Lexington has been integrated. She talks about how parents' attitudes about their children's education have changed. The interview ends abruptly.

Keywords: Awareness; Caring; Changes; Children; Commitment; Involvement; Parent-Teacher Association (PTA); Parents; Responsibility; Subtle discrimination

Subjects: African American families; African Americans--Conduct of life.; African Americans--Education.; African Americans--Race identity.; African Americans--Social conditions.; Integration; Lexington (Ky.)--Race relations.; Race discrimination.