Interview with Catherine H. Dunne, March 28, 1990

Partial Transcript: I really--I can't--maybe you could guide me.

Segment Synopsis: Dunne was born in Louisville, Kentucky. Her father owned a prominent race horse stable. Horse racing was seen as “wicked” and banned in the state of New York in 1910, and was only allowed in the state of Kentucky. Dunne had an older brother and sister, and they traveled all over the country by horse trains for their father’s successful racing career. Helen and Patrick Dunne are her parents. Throughout moving around many different cities, she and her siblings attended many different schools.

Keywords: Ban on horse racing; Fall meets; Family; Horse trains; Louisville (Ky.); New York; Race horses; Schools; Spring meets; Success

Subjects: Education; Educational change; Horse industry; Horse owners; Horse racing; Horse racing--Law and legislation; Thoroughbred horse

Partial Transcript: What was it, uh, what was it like at the school there in New Orleans?

Segment Synopsis: Upon graduating from high school, Dunne's mother decided that she needed to go to college. She decided on New Orleans because that was where her father was racing at the time. She went to an all girls Catholic boarding college. She went for two years, 1919-1921, then moved to Lexington, Kentucky. She didn’t understand the southern culture and the other girls seemed “exotic.”

Keywords: Catholic; Education; New Orleans (La.); The South

Subjects: College environment; College students--Attitudes.; College students--Social conditions; Influence and persuasion; Universities and colleges.; Women in higher education

Partial Transcript: In the fall of '21 then, you, you return--you come to Lexington, is that right?

Segment Synopsis: In the fall of 1921 Dunne came to Lexington from the Dominican College of New Orleans. Racing had returned and her father had lost a fortune so he moved to Lexington to make a modest start. Her father knew the Maddens, a prominent racing family.

Keywords: Business; Fall; Lexington, Kentucky; Madden family; Parents

Subjects: Education; Horse industry; Horse owners; Horse racing; Horse racing--Law and legislation; Lexington (Ky.); Thoroughbred horse; Women in higher education

Partial Transcript: So after two years at Dominican you came to Lexington and enrolled in--at the University of Kentucky.

Segment Synopsis: After two years at Dominican College, Dunne moved to Lexington, Kentucky where she enrolled at the University of Kentucky. Tuition at the time (1921) was 30 dollars a semester. She explains how prices have gotten outrageous and how in her day everything was much cheaper.

Keywords: Education degrees; Education majors; Lexington (Ky.); On campus living; Tuition; UK

Subjects: College costs.; College environment; College majors; College students--Attitudes.; College students--Social conditions; Education, Higher--Kentucky; Universities and colleges.; University; University of Kentucky; Women in higher education

Partial Transcript: Where did you all live?

Segment Synopsis: When they first moved to Lexington, Dunne lived on West 2nd Street. It was a very popular area then and is now becoming popular again. They then moved to Hampton Court which Curly Young, another horse racer, built. The area was well-liked and a safe area as she described. Lexington was very novel to her. She entered UK as a junior and her sister entered as a freshman. They would walk to school from Hampton Court. She disliked the university because she didn’t know anyone and no one seemed eager to get to know her. She was not impressed with the professors at UK as compared to her other school in New Orleans. She had Dr. Noe for art appreciation, but she didn’t take him very seriously. There were many different likes and dislikes discussed about the University of Kentucky.

Keywords: Area; Curly Young; Dr. John Thomas Cotton Noe; Education; Education majors; Fall of 1921; Hampton Court; Lexington, Kentucky; Popular; Understanding life in Lexington; West 2nd Street

Subjects: College environment; College majors; College students--Attitudes.; College students--Social conditions; Education; Education, Higher--Kentucky; Horses; Lexington (Ky.); Universities and colleges.; University; University of Kentucky; Women in higher education

Partial Transcript: And I wasn't very impressed with the instruction either.

Segment Synopsis: Dunne says that football players were taken with Dr. Noe and listened to everything he said. He would put a picture at the front of the room and talk for 40 minutes, she doesn't ever remember taking a test. She had Professor Edward Farquhar for English and adored him. She had no women professors, but admired Frances Jewell McVey. She remembers her being a burly woman, but was delightful and made you feel like you really knew her. She knew Mabel McVey, but doesn't remember what she looked like and said she seemed very aloof and lacked youthfulness, although she was charming and admiring. Dunne was studying to become a teacher at her mother's request.

Keywords: Classes; Edward Farquhar; English; Football players; Frances Jewell McVey; Mable McVey; Teaching; Women professors

Subjects: College administrators; College environment; College majors; College students--Attitudes.; College students--Social conditions; College teachers.; Education, Higher--Kentucky; McVey, Frances Jewell, 1889-1945; Universities and colleges--Faculty.; Universities and colleges.; University of Kentucky; Women in higher education

Partial Transcript: Did you join a sorority?

Segment Synopsis: Dunne did few campus activities and in a way was uninvolved due to not living on campus. However, she was involved in chorus. She didn't join a sorority, but probably would have if she had been invited. She wasn't invited because she was a stranger and "out of the loop."

Keywords: Acquainted; Campus activities; Chorus; Extracurricular activities; Extracurriculars; Friendships; Involvement; Sorority

Subjects: College environment; College students--Attitudes.; College students--Social conditions; College students--Social networks; Education, Higher--Kentucky; Universities and colleges.; University of Kentucky; Women in higher education

Partial Transcript: Okay, um, what were your impressions of Frank McVey?

Segment Synopsis: Dunne admired President McVey. She said he was what you would think of when picturing a college president. President McVey's first wife Mabel McVey died April of 1922. He then remarried to the Dean of Women, Frances Jewell in November of 1923. They were 20 years apart in age. She thought people viewed President McVey's new marriage as lucky because Mabel McVey, not being from Lexington, was unpopular among the people there.

Keywords: College deans; College presidents; College presidents spouses'; Dean of Women; Death; Frances Jewell McVey; Mabel McVey; Remarried; University presidents

Subjects: College administrators; College environment; College presidents; College presidents' spouses; College students--Attitudes.; McVey, Frances Jewell, 1889-1945; McVey, Frank LeRond, 1869-1953; Universities and colleges--Administration.; University of Kentucky

Partial Transcript: Where did you start teaching?

Segment Synopsis: Dunne started teaching at age eighteen. She taught French at Russell Cave High School and it was a wonderful time to begin teaching. She also taught third grade math for a moment before being switched to freshman algebra.

Keywords: French; Freshman algebra; Russell Cave High School; Students; Third grade

Subjects: Education--Kentucky; Education--Study and teaching; Educators; Teachers; Teaching

Partial Transcript: So did you teach while you were get--taking classes?

Segment Synopsis: Dunne went back to the University of Kentucky in the 1940s to get her masters degree. She did this because times were hard and the school she was working for would only give raises every year depending on the credentials the teacher had. Once back at UK, she says the teaching was poor compared to her first years. She didn't have a masters thesis. She didn't go further with her masters because she was only pursuing it to get a pay increase. So, she and her advisor made it easy for her.

Keywords: 1940s; Changes; Expanding knowledge; Jobs; Masters degrees; Masters thesis; Raises; University

Subjects: College environment; College majors; College students--Attitudes.; College students--Social conditions; College teachers.; Education, Higher--Kentucky; Higher education; Universities and colleges--Faculty.; Universities and colleges.; University of Kentucky; Women in higher education

Partial Transcript: When I first taught, I went out to Russell Cave and Mrs.--uh, the, the principal said, "You're, uh, you're going to teach third grade Ms. Dunne."

Segment Synopsis: Dunne loved teaching and found great enjoyment in it. If she were to do it all again she wouldn't change anything. She is still in contact with some of her former students. She taught third grade, though she knew nothing of it, however, she loved it. The children were darling and some were wealthy children whose families owned farms, while others were poor children who worked on farms. Mary Lucas was a student she'll never forget because she asked her a question and her response was "I am a dog, I cannot speak." The children brought her laughter and were so much fun.

Keywords: Educators; Farming; Mary Lucas; Memorable; Poor; Students; Wealthy

Subjects: Education--Kentucky; Education--Study and teaching; Educators; Teachers; Teaching

Partial Transcript: Did you have a hard time getting a teaching job when you got out of college?

Segment Synopsis: Dunne quickly got a job and taught during the Great Depression and the women's suffrage movement. She says she never saw a problem with equality in her own life and always felt that she was treated fairly. However, she knew people like Frances Jewell and even her mother who saw the injustice that was occurring during that time. Women teachers lost their jobs if they were married but Dunne never married or lost her job.

Keywords: Equality; Frances Jewell McVey; Great Depression; Marriage; Suffrage issues; The Depression; Women's roles

Subjects: Depressions--1929--Kentucky; Education--Kentucky; Education--Study and teaching; Educators; Gender issues; Sex discrimination against women; Sex role; Sexism in higher education; Teachers; Teaching; Women in education--Kentucky--Lexington

Partial Transcript: You mentioned that you joined the, uh, AAUP, was that after you started teaching?

Segment Synopsis: Dunne joined several groups and clubs while teaching that she very much enjoyed. They all wanted her to be president of these groups, but she never wanted to because it seemed like too much and she always just wanted to remain a member. She joined the American Association of University Women (AAUW) where Frances Jewell was Dean of Women. The AAUW held activities like senior breakfasts and Wednesday afternoon tea.

Keywords: American Association of University Women (AAUW); Council of Catholic Women; Dean of Women; Frances Jewell McVey; Northside Neighbor Association; Presidents; Teaching; Women teachers

Subjects: American Association of University Women; College teachers--Workload; Higher Education

Partial Transcript: What are--of course uh, Frances Jewell, Frances Jewell McVey and Sarah Blanding were very close.

Segment Synopsis: Dunne says that she considered Frances Jewell McVey as superior to Sarah Blanding. When Frances Jewell married Frank McVey, Sarah Blanding took her position as Dean of Women.

Keywords: Dean of Women; Dr. McVey; Local news; London School of Economics

Subjects: College administrators; College environment; College presidents; College presidents' spouses; College students--Attitudes.; McVey, Frances Jewell, 1889-1945; McVey, Frank LeRond, 1869-1953; Universities and colleges--Administration.; University of Kentucky; Women

Partial Transcript: I've interview three women in the last, uh, week and a half, say, that graduated from UK in the 1920s and none of them were mar--none of them married.

Segment Synopsis: Dunne never married, along with several other 1920 UK women graduates. She says that for some, it was about keeping your independence because during that time when women got married it mostly meant giving up your career. She explains how even the “top drawer” women lost their teaching jobs because they got married.

Keywords: Gender equality; Women graduates; Women's history

Subjects: Education--Kentucky; Education--Study and teaching; Educators; Gender issues; Sex discrimination against women; Sex discrimination in higher education.; Sex role; Sexism in higher education; Teachers; Teaching; University professors; Women in education--Kentucky--Lexington; Women--Education (Higher)

Partial Transcript: You came back to UK in the '40s at a time when there was another great resurgence of this idea that women were--had once again gained equality.

Segment Synopsis: When Dunne returned to UK in the 1940s to teach, it was once again a time for women. Because of World War II, women were left making everything run at UK. Dunne thinks there was always some kind of upheaval in women's equality in industrial positions. Seeing how men ruled in power positions throughout her education and teaching career, she thought it was hard for them to give up their place as “number one”.

Keywords: 1940s; Administrators; Commercial positions; Post-War United States, 1945-1970; Resurgence of women; WW2; Women teachers; Women's suffrage

Subjects: Education--Kentucky; Education--Study and teaching; Educators; Gender issues; Sex discrimination against women; Sex role; Sexism in higher education; Teachers; Teaching; Women in education--Kentucky--Lexington; World War, 1939-1945

Partial Transcript: Well, of course all the principals--most of the principals and all the superintendents--and most of the superintendents I should say...

Segment Synopsis: Dunne says that the women teachers that she worked with were superior and inspiring. She recalls all the schools she taught at between the 1920s and the 1960s. She taught freshman algebra and French, and also the third grade. She taught under all male principals, one she remembers the most was named Blose. He was a very confident, young principal (not even 30 years old) and although he struggled to speak English, he always called meetings just to say something "off the wall."

Keywords: Cassidy Elementary School; Dudley School; Henry Clay High School; Jefferson Davis School; Lexington Junior High School; Morton Junior High School; Mr. Blose; Russell Cave High School; School principals; School superintendents; Sports

Subjects: Education--Kentucky; Education--Study and teaching; Educators; School administrators.; Teachers; Teaching; Teaching satisfaction; Women in education--Kentucky--Lexington