Interview with Twiley W. Barker, July 25, 1991

Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries
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DANIELS: --Pi Sigma Alpha Oral History Project. Uh, history, intellectual history of political, uh, science. Uh, today's date is July 25th, 1991. The interviewer is Bill Daniels. Uh, the interviewee is Twiley W. Barker. Uh, in order to get started, uh, I would like to ask Professor Barker about his early training in political science. His early interest, how he, uh, got involved in the discipline, how he became interested? And then I guess later majored in it.

BARKER: Okay, Bill, it was somewhat accidental. I think in order to put this in proper prospective it might be good to go back and kind of see, uh, where my roots came from. I grew up in Southeastern Louisiana. 00:01:00And I always refer to it as the toe of the boot. Franklinton, Louisiana which is the parish seat. And, uh, we had, uh, a segregated school system as you well know in the thirties and the forties and into the fifties and really into the sixties before they, uh, uh, desegregated those schools in that area. And so I attended both elementary and high school in the same physical unit. There were several buildings but in the same physical unit so essentially one moved from grade one through high school.

DANIELS: All the way through--

BARKER: Yeah. In the--

DANIELS: --same component.

BARKER: --same physical unit. Uh, and typically we went through the, uh, rather watered down high school curriculum. Uh, giving you the basic reading, writing, arithmetic kinds of things. And believe me it was arithmetic. Uh, we were very fortunate to find some dedicated high 00:02:00school, uh, teachers who let us know that there was such a thing as a, uh, quadratic equation. There was such a thing as a sine, cosine, tan, cotan, under the guise of advanced, uh, arithmetic or whatever they called it. So at least we were not totally, uh, under, uh, shock when we reached college and had to take college algebra the first year. Uh, and, uh, after that, uh, coming out of a very large family, uh, we were all expected to go to college. Uh, Dad who began his, uh, academic career in Washington Parish in, uh, small rural elementary schools in, uh, 1913. And, uh, met my mother who was a third grade teacher and, uh, they settled in Franklinton. And my dad went out of the elementary 00:03:00school classroom into the high school classroom, became a high school principal and eventually became a supervisor of quote colored schools. And so they had six kids along the way. And I was the fourth of those six kids.


BARKER: And at that time I came out of high school, uh, there were three sisters in college. Uh, two at Alcorn State in Mississippi from which my dad had graduated. And, uh, one was at Meharry as a, uh, a nurse, nursing student during the early days of World War II. At least she had her education paid for that way. And, uh, so it was rather touch and go. I, uh--

DANIELS: By the time it got to you.

BARKER: I don't mind, I don't mind school. Uh, uh, I came out of high school early, because at that time we were able to skip grades. And, 00:04:00if you were a little above the others in there, they moved you on. And, I was just over sixteen when I came out of high school. So I had to wait until that older sister got out of school. I waited almost a year. And, uh, at seventeen Tuskegee Institute because I was given a hundred and fifty dollar scholarship and that's where I was told, "You're going." I didn't have any choice in the matter. And so you know it's Tuskegee University now. But it was, it was, it was, it was little more than a, a fledging, uh, college of education and, uh, some liberal arts courses. Uh, uh, freshman year of study is basically what I did there. And then the draft hit me at eighteen and I completed my freshman year there. I found out a little something about politics right then and there. Uh, in the middle of the freshman year, I became eighteen. And, uh, I had to register for the draft, because it was 00:05:00right there in the middle of the war.


BARKER: And, uh, I remember that, uh, when I went back home in Louisiana to register for the draft, I got permission to take a week away from school. And, uh, while I was there my dad went to see the president of the draft board. And the president of the draft board was the mail carrier on our route. And he told my dad, he said, "Send him on back to school. We won't bother him until school is out." And they did not bother me until August of that year. School was out in late May. And I told someone that's the way politics works in small towns. Was it Tip O'Neill who said, "All politics is local politics"?

DANIELS: I think--

BARKER: So in a sense that's my first introduction into what goes on there. I went into the service, um, and, uh, I was able to decipher 00:06:00Morse code rather easily and was assigned to the air forces. And, uh, I, uh, spent thirty days in basic training in Keesler Air Base in Biloxi, Mississippi. A lot of people were flying B-24s out of there I recall. And from there I was sent to Chanute Field just down state here in Illinois, Rantoul, for training in cryptography. Uh, and, uh, I found out something about Army waste, uh, military waste, uh. When we arrived, uh, at, uh, Chanute Field, uh, eight of us had been selected to become cryptographic technicians with an eventual assignment to an air service group that was going to support the, uh, group that Davis commanded eventually, the 477th Bombardment Group.


BARKER: But when we got there apparently, uh, some of the, and there 00:07:00were all white officers there, some of them had picked their own black guys to be cryptographic technicians. So in a sense what happened, they trained, they trained two sets of cryptographic technicians. As a result we were duplicated effort throughout that kind of operation.


BARKER: I remember for example that, uh, we fooled around in a base signal office and, uh, uh, telegraphers sending telegrams. Uh, we, uh, were sent out to deal with the plans and training on temporary duty at air bases in the Midwest and that kind of thing. A good indication of what really goes on in terms of, of, uh, defense department, uh, and that was a war department waste at that particular time. After completing the service--and one other thing before I leave that, is very interesting. This morning in the Chicago Tribune's Tempo Section there's a story on, a story on the Tuskegee Airmen.


DANIELS: Oh, yeah. All right. All right.

BARKER: The famous 99th, 332nd, 99th Fighter Squadron that turned into the great 332nd Second Fighter Group or whatever it is.


BARKER: Uh, they trained at Tuskegee. And, uh--

LINDSAY: Oh, okay.

BARKER: They trained at Tuskegee. And then we were--after training at Chanute Field we were sent to join the air service group that serviced the 477th Bombardment Group. And what had happened is that that original 99th and 332nd Fighter Group had come back to the United States to form a segment of that 477th, uh, Medium Bomber Composite Group.


BARKER: Flying Billy Mitchell B-25s.


BARKER: And it was commanded by Benjamin O. Davis, Jr. who was the commander of that 332nd.



BARKER: Okay. And so, uh, I, I was stationed at Godman Field, Kentucky.


BARKER: And then we were at Freeman Field, Indiana, and there was a very interesting incident there where the fighter pilots, actually they were bombardment pilots at that time. There were 101 officers who went to the white only officers club and were arrested. And that got back to the first air force and to the inspector general and then the war, the, the, the war department.


BARKER: Because it was the US Army Air Forces at that time. And they eventually moved the entire white command and supplanted it with a black command with Davis as the base commander.

DANIELS: Is that right?


DANIELS: Do you recall the year that that happened?

BARKER: I recall it was in '45. It was 1945. That's right--


BARKER: --1945.


BARKER: It was a very interesting kind of thing. While I was at Chanute Field in training, I had a chance to attend some football games in 00:10:00Champaign-Urbana and that was my introduction to U of I. At least I got a chance to see what the campus looked like there. And after we were separated in '46 I resumed my undergraduate education at Southern. And at the time, uh, Lucius had graduated from high school and was a sophomore at Southern as I was entering my sophomore year. So we went along together.

DANIELS: Oh, okay.

BARKER: We both had determined that we were going into pre-medical, uh, courses, and, uh, we had an uncle. My dad's older brother who was killed much early in his life, but had started a practice and was not in his practice to long before he was killed.


BARKER: And at least we knew something about that. And--

DANIELS: Did you also--

BARKER: We didn't know, we did not know him, but we knew that he had, 00:11:00uh, started practice in Bogalusa incidentally.

DANIELS: Oh, yeah.

BARKER: Which is a pretty famous little town--

DANIELS: --yeah, Bogalusa--

BARKER: --because Deacons of Defense and Justice--

DANIELS: Appaloosa, and all those loosa's.

BARKER: Okay. I understand--

DANIELS: Could I ask you one question--

BARKER: Yeah. Go ahead.

DANIELS: Were you thinking about pre-med at Tuskegee or at that point --

BARKER: Well. No. No.

DANIELS: --you hadn't given any thought--

BARKER: At that time the war was on and it was get through the freshman year study.


BARKER: I had a very good freshman year.


BARKER: Very good freshman year. I think they were operating on a four- point scale. I must have made about 3.6 or 3.7 that year.


BARKER: A very, very good freshman year. One C as I recall it in the entire year. Um, and had not given any thought to--I probably was going to end up doing what my daddy did. I was probably going to end up in high school teaching or--

DANIELS: Teaching.

BARKER: --something. I didn't realize--had not really focused on what I wanted to do.

DANIELS: Okay. At that point--

BARKER: But then coming--

DANIELS: --but then you got to Southern.

BARKER: --coming out, coming out of, of the service and we got to Southern.


BARKER: Then it became a kind of career direction.


BARKER: Okay. Yes, your uncle was a doctor. This looks like something. 00:12:00Your either going to preach, you're going to teach, you're going to be a doctor, you know.

DANIELS: Um-hm. Um-hm.

BARKER: Lawyers were not that significant in Louisiana at that time. A few, but not really.


BARKER: But, you know, being a doctor was a big deal.


BARKER: So Lucius and I started out. We took a lot of courses together. We didn't have necessarily the same teachers, but we took a lot of courses together.


BARKER: And in the fall of 1946 we had a course in comparative anatomy. And, uh, I remember that the lab for our Comparative Anatomy was on Tuesdays and Thursdays from one till three. And oh about, uh, two or three weeks into this course we started cutting animals and--(laughs)- -and it was shortly after we got out of lab. A little while later you were in the dining hall and your stomach queasy and everything else. I said, "This is not for me." And we both agreed that this probably was, 00:13:00was not a good choice.


BARKER: And at the same time and Southern required every freshman to take the introductory American Government course.


BARKER: And the guy teaching at that time was Rodney Higgins who came out of Howard. He was one of Kirk Porter's students --

DANIELS: Oh, yes.

BARKER: --at the University of Maryland. And Kirk Porter is one of those old timers.

DANIELS: Oh, I tell you. Seems like he just, finally just--

BARKER: And Rodney--

DANIELS: --retired.

BARKER: --was trying to interest kids in politics.


BARKER: And there must have been a good two dozen of us there. Most of us veterans who were pretty sharp. You know, they were, you know, at least we had seen some of the world--

DANIELS: Sure. Sure. Sure.

BARKER: --and that kind of stuff. And they were pretty astute. And so Rodney had a good following and the first course turned out to be a good experience, and then they said, "Well, we're going to offer this and this." And took a couple more of them. And then all of the sudden, we took everything he had to offer.


BARKER: Rodney taught all of the political science.


BARKER: All the political science I got as an undergraduate I got from Rodney Higgins. In the meantime, we got a pretty heavy dose of 00:14:00American history at the same time. You had what I think might have been very appropriate for any disciplinary based major.


BARKER: A heck of a lot of good collateral social science courses.


BARKER: And so we had to take some psych, had to take some sociology--


BARKER: --I had to take some econ, had to take two courses in econ--never took it. There is a guy named Sam Enders Warren who, uh, worked under a guy named Kikofer (??) at Wisconsin and did this massive dissertation on blacks in, in the, ne-, uh, Negroes, I think, is what he used--


BARKER: --in the national labor movement. And Sam Warren was, was the guy who everybody feared because he was known as a very, very--

DANIELS: What is this fellow's name again?

BARKER: Samuel Warren, W-a-r-r-e-n.

DANIELS: Oh, Warren. And then the other fellow--

BARKER: An economist.

DANIELS: --was --

BARKER: Rodney Higgins was the, was the political scientist.

DANIELS: Okay, but then there was someone else you mentioned there, got, with the economist?

BARKER: That was Sam Warren.



DANIELS: The sociologist?

BARKER: The sociologist, uh, was a guy named Lionel Newsom who later, who became president of Central State.



BARKER: Yeah. They, but anyway--

DANIELS: All that at Southern at that time.

BARKER: --we got, we got, we were all at Southern. We got an opportunity to get a pretty broad based liberal education. I'm not sure whether it was as much depth as we should have had. But at least we were introduced to a kind of broad liberal education.

DANIELS: But they took you from where you were. I mean you--

BARKER: It's a good school--

DANIELS: --coming in there you didn't have what you'd call--

BARKER: Coming in--

DANIELS: --terribly--

BARKER: --that's right. No. No. The background--

DANIELS: --deep high school--

BARKER: --the background was, was, was rather narrow. Uh, uh--

DANIELS: For you and ----------(??).

BARKER: For example, the typical high school curriculum for a, an African-American student in Louisiana when I was in high school--

DANIELS: Right. Right.

BARKER: --consisted of four years of English composition. Well, everybody knew you had it. Consisted of a couple of years of math, one of which was called advanced math or whatever it is. Consisted of a course in general science and a course in laboratory biology. And the laboratory was a joke, you know.

DANIELS: Um-hm. Um-hm.

BARKER: Uh, and it consisted of civics and citizenship and problems in 00:16:00democracy. This was also a kind of introduction. Those were social science courses, American history.


BARKER: We did not really--we did get some ancient civilization, but just a little touch of it.

DANIELS: Um-hm. Um-hm.

BARKER: And then you had, uh, uh, uh, no languages. No languages whatsoever. Uh, you had an array of practical arts, work with your hands kinds of things as, you see. Uh, and, uh, I remember that the girls generally took, uh, home economics, uh, sewing and we call it now clothing and textiles and nutrition.


BARKER: We called it sewing and cooking at that time.


BARKER: And the fellows were out actually learning how to saw a straight line, how to measure something and how to build something.


BARKER: And this was a practical arts kind of a thing. So you got a lot of that kind of stuff, and PE.

DANIELS: And so that was the foundation you brought to college.


BARKER: This was the foundation.


BARKER: You had enough dedicated teachers to know that here are some kids who are going. A lot of the kids--we were small classes.


BARKER: But a lot of them did go to college. They went to Southern. Most of them went to Southern. But at least we knew that there was such a thing as a Bunsen burner. (laughs)


BARKER: We knew that there were equations that you dealt with in algebra. And we had a pretty good command of the skills stuff.


BARKER: The reading and writing, you know. And so that was--


BARKER: And these teachers were paid pitifully poor, pitifully poor. Hundred and twenty-five dollars a month and all that kind of stuff. And, uh, it, uh, it was my contention that, uh, dedicated teachers are responsible for me being able to handle an undergraduate curriculum when, when I went to college.


BARKER: Dedicated high school teachers.


BARKER: Who were un-, overpaid and underworked. The other way.

DANIELS: The other way around. Okay.

BARKER: Underpaid and overworked. Believe it.


DANIELS: But they loved it.


DANIELS: And it showed.

BARKER: They were dedicated teachers. And they didn't run out at 3: 15 or 3: 30. Yeah.


BARKER: For example, we had students with extra-curricular stuff, dramatics, debate and stuff like that. And we stuck around. You know, and you might be around and hour, hour and a half after school. They weren't running home. In fact, most of them lived right around the schools. You, you miss that once you moved away from the neighborhood school, kind of. I won't get into that.

DANIELS: Okay. So now we're at Southern.


DANIELS: Rodney Higgins and --

BARKER: All right. Went on and completed the bachelor's degree with Rodney Higgins taking all that he ever offered.


BARKER: And there was a guy in history, uh, who, uh, also knew about Urbana. And he did not want--he had GI Bill. He did not want to, uh, stop the summer of '48 when we graduated. Uh, he said, "I think I'm going to summer school." And I did stop. I hung around at home and did pittling jobs and stuff like that. Uh, and he went on to Urbana. 00:19:00And, you know, told us what it was like and everything. So I applied; was admitted. And the very fortunate thing is that the chairman of the department at the time I entered Urbana was a guy named Charles Maynard Kneier, Charlie Kneier.


BARKER: And Charlie Kneier was the appropriate person to be chairman of the department. Uh, I was put at ease immediately. He knew I was coming into a very, very different kind of situation, a huge university. I think at the time we were at Southern, there might have been four thousand students at the most. Okay. And here you're coming into about twenty-two, twenty-three thousand at Urbana at the time.

DANIELS: And that was the only school you considered? Urbana?

BARKER: That was the only graduate school I applied to.


BARKER: That was the only graduate school I applied to. Uh, and, uh, I, uh--during the first year, uh, had little or no difficulty handling 00:20:00things. I read like mad. I worked like mad. Uh, and, uh, Kneier was very inquiring as to how I was doing. Uh, there had been probably one other, uh, uh, African-American student there. A guy named Clark who taught at West Virginia State for a while. I don't think he finished his Ph.D. I know he did a master's degree there.


BARKER: Robert Clark or something like that. Uh, and, uh, I remember that somewhere during the course of the year, uh, Kneier came to me and said that there was a position available in the political science library would I like a job. And I took the job which was the best thing that could happen to me.


BARKER: Because I handled the political science library at night and, uh, there was a lady there who everybody knew, who was the darling of 00:21:00the department. Who worked until she was a very old lady named Nelle Signor who was the political science librarian. We had department libraries and stuff.


BARKER: And I, uh, learned a lot about the literature. This, this was a gold-mine because I'm right here with the literature that I needed to really be attune to. And, uh, that way I got a chance to interact with a lot of the professors who would come in if they would stay that late and a lot of the other graduate students.


BARKER: And so the first year was, was a good year. I, I, I--the first year of study was interesting too, because you had to do a master's thesis. And, uh, we talked about it, uh, Clarence Berdahl was supposed to do the--direct my master's thesis. We talked about Huey Long. In fact the discussion, Austin Ranney was there, and Austin was a, an assistant professor who had just gotten started. And he said, in a 00:22:00sense, uh, he'd, was my mentor until Clarence came back. Clarence was away on sabbatical in the fall, fall quarter. And, uh, as I recall, uh, he got me started on doing a master's thesis on Huey Long's rise to power as a study of political bossism. And that was my first, uh, my first major effort. Very interesting indeed, uh, uh, and, of course, Clarence came back and I finished it under, under Clarence.


BARKER: Uh, I looked at it not long ago, and I said, "Oh, this is a lot of, a piece of work." But anyway, it was interesting when I was doing it. Uh, at the end of them at the end of the first year, I continued the master's degree in June and decided I would stay the summer and take some additional courses. Because I had not fully made up my mind how far I was going.


BARKER: Kneier encouraged me, you know, go ahead. And, uh, I, uh, at 00:23:00the time decided I was going to stop. Higgins said, "He wanted me to come back, and he was adding to the department. Come back and teach at Southern." And so I decided at the end of the summer session that I would go back and teach at Southern, uh, with a master's degree. And I went back there and spent a lot of time in the classroom with lots of introductory courses. And, uh, during the course of three years which is a three-year period. Uh, there were grants and other kinds of, uh, initiatives by faculty, faculty development at small, particularly, uh, the historic black colleges and universities. And one such, uh, opportunity came my way with a general education board fellowship. It was a Rockefeller, uh, Brothers as they call it. 00:24:00Probably the precursor of the Rockefeller Foundation Fund educational grants. And there were several people on the faculty and I knew that, uh, one appointment was going to be made from the faculty itself. And I was called in. Filed the application and everything. And I remember talking to the president, a guy named Felton Clark who was probably one of the best that they've had at Southern. Clark was a Phi Beta Kappa out of the law, Columbia Ph.D. Educational Psychology ----------(??). A very, very darn good smooth educator. And, and I remember that he said, "This is a great opportunity if you can get it." And I got it. And it was then in the fall of 1952 that I came back to Urbana and stayed until I completed the work.



BARKER: So I had the general education board fellowship along with the GI Bill which ran out somewhere in the middle of it. But, uh, it, it made the, uh, paid for school fairly comfortable in the process. And so that was the, uh, the, uh, opportunity which was presented to me at that time. I, uh, came back and the same group of people were there and eventually Jack Peltason had joined the faculty--


BARKER: --at that time. Lucius had preceded me, had preceded me because Lucius, uh, stayed around undergraduate school an additional year. I went through the summers and got out in '48. Lucius completed his work in '49 and went to Urbana and stayed.

DANIELS: Ah ha. Okay.

BARKER: Yeah. And so we were there together from '52 to '54 when he completed his work and I completed mine the next year in '55. Um, 00:26:00interestingly enough focused on state and local government and politics at the time. Under a very decent and interesting mentor named Clyde Snider, S-n-i-d-e-r. And Clyde, uh, literally, uh, put the fire under me and he said, "We can go all the way. There's no problem." And, and fell right into the group of quarter graduate students with Bob Salisbury and Bob Freedman and, and, uh, there was a guy named ----- -----(??) Chinn as I recall. And Melvin Straus, uh, very interesting group. Uh, I assume Lucius told you about the experience of, uh, being an assistant in 1953, I think.

DANIELS: Yes, he did.

BARKER: Fifty-two, yeah.


BARKER: And year after year, I was, uh, also offered the opportunity to be an assistant and so, I had it '54 and '55.


DANIELS: So you had that teaching experience--

BARKER: We had--

DANIELS: --as well.

BARKER: --the teaching experience. And it was, uh, a, a very interesting thing, because I had had the teaching experience at Southern.

DANIELS: Oh, yes.

BARKER: This is right. So walking in there as a TA was no problem whatsoever. And, uh, I had some interesting people who I had seen since that time. (Daniels laughs). And they say, "Yeah. We remember you as a teaching assistant." So, uh, completed that, uh, I, I do remember a couple of interesting things. While I was there, um, uh, everybody was a Bentleyite, Arthur Bentley, The Processes of Government and Charlie Hagan.


BARKER: Very interesting person. That was a very important thing with a very significant impact on all the graduate students at that time. Um, then I remember also that, uh, uh, I guess, uh, Easton came out with his, uh, The Political System--


BARKER: --sort of thing. And, uh, there was another thing which was 00:28:00very influential at the time. Eric Voegelin who was at LSU did The New Science of Politics or something like that. And, uh, we were getting into the philosophical debate within the discipline. I learned a lot about the discipline itself through Clarence Berdahl. Uh, Clarence Berdahl was a great supporter of APSA and I remember that one of the things that he had us do. I don't know whether it was my specific assignment or whether it was a group assignment was to actually go back and dig into the history of APSA. And that's when I found out that it got started in 1906. You got it--that the key people, Goodnow and Lasswell, Lasswell was a little later on.


BARKER: And, of course, uh, the people at Urbana, they were very concerned about the Urbana history. Uh, two people named John Farley and John Garner. And Farley and Garner actually started the department 00:29:00at Urbana.

DANIELS: Oh, okay.

BARKER: Yeah. And so you got involved in that and I remember going back and looking at old volumes of APSA to look at the coverage. Certain of the stuff which was being published at that time was far different from what you do in picking up a journal now, you see. But, uh, that was also a very interesting experience which we had then. We were very much immersed in the discipline itself. Uh, a kind of, everybody knew what the young assistant professors around there, when they were publishing. You know, you kind of recognized that publication is very important in your professional career.

DANIELS: Yeah. I was very taken--

BARKER: Very clear. I remember looking at one of Peltason's early pieces, uh, uh, on The Missouri, uh, uh, Plan for the Election of Judges.


BARKER: Had to study something about the merit selection of judges in one of the courses that I took with Clyde Snider. And so, you know, you look at stuff there. And then, of course, he came out later on 00:30:00with that Federal Courts in the Political Process--

DANIELS: Process.

BARKER: --which made a great impact on everybody--

DANIELS: --oh, yeah, way he--

BARKER: --who was there at the time.

DANIELS: --impact on you?

BARKER: Yes, he did. I had an interesting, uh, uh, dissertation that I did under Clyde Snider's direction. We kicked around several topics and, uh, we ended up with taking a look. And I'm a teetotaler, this is very interesting. I'm a teetotaler. And I think I became that, at least that orientation, working as a high school kid in a drugstore in my hometown, where small hometown, the druggist delivered his wares.


BARKER: And I rode a bicycle delivering the wares around town.


BARKER: And also I, I, during, you know, spare time I was stock boy and re-filler. And the druggist had, uh, a license to sell--this is a dry ward in the town--but he had a license to sell alcoholic beverages for 00:31:00medical and sacramental purposes.


BARKER: Only. But this is another ending--interesting indication of politics, you see. Uh, but he sold it out of the backdoor to anybody who wanted.


BARKER: And I remember seeing a guy literally drink himself to death. And I think that might have had a psychological impact but I am a teetotaler. Now, it was very, very funny because I did a study of state liquor monopolies in the United States.


BARKER: It was basically a descriptive kind of thing with some analysis in terms of linkages of administrators and actors and operations. But, uh, I, uh, uh, remember that, uh, I went to four of the--I think of seventeen states. I went to four other states for field-work. And I remember, uh, I got one of the guys on my dissertation committee asked me did I bring any samples back. (both laugh) But it was an interesting 00:32:00study. I mined a couple of articles out of it. I guess the first thing I did of significance was a piece I did for--Yale had a journal which focused on studies on alcohol in the United States. Yale.


BARKER: And, uh, I was able to get my first major piece, uh, into that. I mined an article out of it. I mined another article out of Southern's Research, uh, Bulletin. Uh, out of it, so I mined two articles out of my dissertation, you see. And so, uh, that was the, the kind of thing that one does. And so we were attuned to, you gotta at least get something in print at an early age. I went back to Southern after completing [telephone rings] the Ph.D. Kill it.

[Pause in recording.]


BARKER: Okay. I returned to Southern in June of 1955 as a fresh Ph.D. 00:33:00Um, and, uh, at the time, um, Rodney Higgins was still the person. I don't recall whether there was anybody else teaching political science at that time other than Rodney. I, I became, we became a two-man department. And we began to broaden our offerings and, uh, I taught a little of everything. As I recall the basic fare was the, uh, huge demand to service American--survey course, American National Government. And then I taught state and local government. I taught municipal government. Uh, I even dropped the state and local and broke it into two parts. And Clyde Snider had introduced me to the great rural local government in America. Uh, he even did a book on this thing, using that. We were dealing with the New England town meetings and all that kind of thing. They were rather fascinating. I did a 00:34:00course in parties based on my experience with Clarence Berdahl and, the, Austin Ranney in terms of the master's thesis which I had done. Uh, and some American political part I believe was another thing. So we taught a range of courses. Rodney taught comparative government. Rodney taught the constitutional law which I later grabbed and I tell you how I got to that. (Daniels laughs) Uh, and, uh, I'm not sure who taught theory. Maybe he taught some theory. But anyway, uh, it was a rather interesting two-person department. We taught five courses each semester.

DANIELS: Five courses each?

BARKER: Five courses each. This is basically a teaching institution.


BARKER: And they let you know that; they hire people to teach. And you had large classes. It was not unusual to have a class of--in, in the introductory courses, uh, five courses with three preparations. In other words, you probably ended up with two advanced classes.


BARKER: And, uh, three of the introductory ones, because that was a 00:35:00across the board service course.


BARKER: Yeah. Okay. And occasionally we would vary it. Maybe a third preparation in the advanced course and then once you started teaching the American National Government it was just very easy. You just added to it. No real problem of preparation there--


BARKER: --in doing introductory--

DANIELS: And what--

BARKER: --courses.

DANIELS: --you, you were about to mention the size of those classes?

BARKER: Yeah. Uh, the introductory ones about fifty or so. And you might have three of those. That's a hundred and fifty students. And the courses with our majors were generally seven to fifteen, something like that. So they were not very large.

DANIELS: Okay. Little, little relief there.

BARKER: Yeah. A little relief there.

DANIELS: But I suppose you--

BARKER: Yeah. Yeah.

DANIELS: --could only give them, uh, give them an objective type examination--

BARKER: Well--

DANIELS: --in the service courses?

BARKER: --in the, in the, in the introductory course, you had, you had a lot of that. We, we stuck with pretty much--


BARKER: --the, uh, uh, essay type examinations in the--we wanted our kids to learn to write. And, and so we stuck--


DANIELS: I know that's a concern.

BARKER: Yeah. Remember big blue books.


BARKER: You remember the little blue books?

DANIELS: Oh, yes--they still have blue books.


DANIELS: You can get white books for a nickel and blue books for a quarter.

BARKER: Right.

DANIELS: So we're still buying blue books.

BARKER: We still buy blue books.



DANIELS: --somebody's making money off blue books.

BARKER: So it was a very interesting experience. At the time too, we began to increase our enrollment and interest in political science because Southern had started a law school under a kind of Jim Crow.


BARKER: Separate law school arrangements. So that was a law school on campus.


BARKER: And a lot of the kids were getting political science undergraduate degrees and headed right into law school--

DANIELS: Law school on campus.

BARKER: --there on campus. And we began to increase the, uh, the, uh, population of, of, of lawyers in Louisiana, the amount of lawyers in Louisiana as a result of that. At the time, it's very interesting, because Louisiana had regulations at the time that, uh, allowed you immediate admission to the bar if you graduated from a state operated law school. (Daniels laughs) And so, you know, you had that, that early group. Now, you know, you got to pass the exam now.


DANIELS: Yeah. Yeah.

BARKER: But, but that early group got in on the--

DANIELS: Went right on in there.

BARKER: --automatic, yeah, yeah, automatic, uh, members of the bar. So that was indeed a very ----------(??). While I was there in, Lucius had preceded me back at Southern. See, when Lucius completed his Ph.D. Higgins brought him, that's, Higgins brought him in there. And Lucius was already there.


BARKER: And so Lucius--I was the third person when I got, uh, there in '55. Lucius had gone there in '54.

DANIELS: Um-hm. Um-hm. Um-hm.

BARKER: Okay. Now, and then in '56 Sam Cook joined us--


BARKER: --out of Ohio State.


BARKER: Cook completed his Ph.D. So there were four of us there, and we offered a darn good major as I recall.


BARKER: And, you know, shortly, there were a couple of other guys, because of the huge demand that the American government, everybody in the university had to take it.


BARKER: Uh, a couple of guys--one guy named Cleveland Williams, I recall, had, had come out of, uh, a small college ----------(??) in New York. Cleveland was from the islands.



BARKER: But he had come out of a small, St. Ambrose or something like that. Did he say anything? I'm not sure.

DANIELS: Well, the only St.--

BARKER: But anyway he--

DANIELS: --there's a lot of those around--

BARKER: --there was, yeah--

DANIELS: --I'm not familiar with St. Ambrose up in--

BARKER: --there were five, there were five--

DANIELS: --in Dubuque, Iowa--

BARKER: --there--

DANIELS: --but I'm sure there must be one down in the city somewhere.

BARKER: There were five of us.


BARKER: Uh, and so you had a, a large number of people who began to study political science as a major at that time. And I remembered that it didn't last long, because I think in '57 Lucius moved to, uh, University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee. Uh, and, uh, Sam Cook was lured to Atlanta. And, it--I remember we talked about it, and Sam said, "You know, it's unfortunate that we had quite a, uh, a beginning, a collection here."


BARKER: But, you know, we were spreading out.


BARKER: I mean people were going, and looking at their own personal kinds of careers.


BARKER: But it was very interesting time up there. I stayed there until 00:39:001960.


BARKER: Uh, in the process I began--

DANIELS: Did you replace them with other young bright--

BARKER: Yeah. We--

DANIELS: --African-Americans--

BARKER: --Jewel Prestage for example. Jewel Prestage--

DANIELS: --Jewel Prestage--

BARKER: --who had been a student, incidentally. During my first period at Southern with the master's degree--


BARKER: --I taught Jewel as a sophomore.


BARKER: Jewel Prestage as a sophomore. I taught her probably five or six courses.

DANIELS: Um-hm. Um-hm.

BARKER: Very bright, very bright undergraduate. That is, is, of course, is evidenced by where she is today.


BARKER: And, uh, there's another girl there who is in Holland now named Marlene Lumas, uh, who also went to Wisconsin and worked under Dave Feldman.


BARKER: And did something on the establishment clause, because she was a devout Catholic out in New Orleans, a Creole girl.

DANIELS: Oh, okay. Okay.

BARKER: Yeah. And did some, did a thesis under--


BARKER: --Dave Feldman on this. Yeah. Um, after, um, uh, that period, 00:40:00Jewel was there. There was another person there, uh, named George Robinson. I'm not sure where Robinson--I think Robinson might have done his work at Michigan. But Robinson taught the constitutional law when he was down there.


BARKER: Yeah. All right. Um, and, uh, let's see who was at--Ernie Patterson. Now, Ernie Patterson later did a Ph.D. at St. Louis U and went to the University of Colorado.


BARKER: And he actually became an assistant dean of the graduate school and was able to pull in a large number of minority students all over the university in professional graduate schools. So he did quite a bit--he died much too young from cancer.


BARKER: Uh, he died probably in his mid-forties--


BARKER: --from cancer. Yeah. But Ernie Patterson was there for a while. And he died. So we had a, a sizable number of--maybe we 00:41:00reached probably seven or eight at one--there were at least five Ph.D.s working at one time as I recall.

DANIELS: Is that--


DANIELS: --right?

BARKER: --in a black, historically black college that was a sizable number. It was during that time that I did this little paper that was published in the Quarterly Review of Higher Education Among Negros by an old, uh, academic, in the black college circle, named T.E. McKinney. And incidentally his son, uh, who did a, a Ph.D. at the Fletcher School taught at Southern for a while as I recall. Yeah. He came in during that time. But I think he came in as, uh, people were leaving.


BARKER: But he came in. And actually chaired the department after Higgins died. Higgins died much too early. After he died, he chaired the department as I recall. Um, let's see, who'd we have there, too, 00:42:00there was another person in term--yes. Lyons, Charles Lyons, L-y-o-n-s.


BARKER: Who was chancellor at Fayetteville in North Carolina. Lyons came to us out of Grambling. He spent a year at Grambling and he came down to us. So Charles Lyons came through there as I recall. And then, of course, David Hazel who came out of Michigan. And you remember, he's one of the persons I interviewed for this project.

DANIELS: Right. Okay.

BARKER: David Hazel and he left Southern and became dean of arts and sciences at Central State as I recall in Ohio. So all of those people had come through that particular department. And then, uh, as, uh, in 1960, I, uh, got a letter from Clyde Snider who had directed my dissertation asking would I be interested in spending a year in the Illinois Legislative Council's Research Department. And, of course, this was an opportunity to get even more. I had contributed a number of 00:43:00small pieces to The National Municipal Review while I was at Southern.

DANIELS: Okay. Okay.

BARKER: A whole bunch of small pieces.

DANIELS: Um-hm. Um-hm.

BARKER: And then this would give me an opportunity to gain some more experience at that. I found out about legislative research, something I did not like. It was--the emphasis was on production and not quality. And it was interesting--

DANIELS: You mean the legislature itself or the--

BARKER: Yeah. The--

DANIELS: --research?

BARKER: See, for example, this was the legislative research arm.


BARKER: So then, uh, let's say, that you were a member of the Illinois Senate and you are considering a bill to raise revenue and you wanted to see, uh, what the experience was with this in other states.


BARKER: Let's say a particular tax on let's say athletic events or whatever the case may be. But, you know, you get a note saying, "Do this and do it in three days." You know that kind of thing. (Daniels laughs) And so you'd go out--it was really that kind of action-oriented kind of stuff.


BARKER: I had one good experience though, because I was asked to begin, 00:44:00did not finish it because my time was, was up in June of that year. I went in September and spent the nine month academic year.


BARKER: Uh, but I did start a major study of the personnel department. I was a kind of an evaluative implementation study. You might call it a policy implementation evaluation. Uh, a study of the personnel, uh, practices under the new Illinois Personnel Code of 1955. So it had been in operation five years. And I started that. Learned an awful lot about personnel administration in that particular aspect and got, got about half way through it and left. And, and then finished it up in that shop (??). But that was another major interesting experience. I went back at the end of that academic year.

DANIELS: But if I could just back up a moment--

BARKER: Yeah. Okay.

DANIELS: --with your--


DANIELS: --experiences there. Um, you said you sort of disenchanted. 00:45:00Was it because they didn't give you--

BARKER: Okay. Because, yeah--

DANIELS: --to do a good job?

BARKER: The point was, it was quick research memos.


BARKER: And you really couldn't get in depth on anything.

DANIELS: And as an academic you, you--

BARKER: Yeah. I would like --

DANIELS: --probably wanted --

BARKER: --to take--

DANIELS: --to take another--

BARKER: --a little more time and I'd like to talk to some people about this that and the other.

DANIELS: So you wanted the polar--

BARKER: --and--

DANIELS: --extremes?

BARKER: --yeah. I--

DANIELS: --so, you wanted to take a year and they--

BARKER: --this is right--

DANIELS: --wanted in a day.

BARKER: Yeah. The data collection effort was bang, bang, bang. It was not a carefully considered whether or not, and we didn't provide any framework or any kind of, uh, research design. In fact, it was basically preparing research memos is what they called them, whatever it was. I met some interesting people, uh, Cecil Partee was a, a member of the senate. He was--he later became president of the senate as you recall.


BARKER: Uh, I met Abner Mikva.

DANIELS: Oh, yeah.

BARKER: Abner Mikva was a member of the House of Representatives.


BARKER: I did a memo for him.


BARKER: I got to know that guy.

DANIELS: And then he was--

BARKER: And now--

DANIELS: --then he went to Congress and now he's a federal judge.


BARKER: --now he's a federal court of appeals judge on the--

DANIELS: Court of Appeals.

BARKER: --D.C. circuit, D.C. circuit.

DANIELS: Yeah. He was--

BARKER: We get a Democratic president; he might get the court. (both laugh) But it was an interesting experience in terms of the interaction and observation of the legislature in operation. And that, that was the value of that.


BARKER: I could actually see that. And, and I had an opportunity to see political corruption at it's best in the sen-,--

[Pause in recording.]

DANIELS: --recording on this side Twiley W., uh, Barker, July 25th, 1991, tape one, side two. Pow.

BARKER: I'm getting ready to wind up my stay at Springfield. But I did get a chance to meet, uh, uh, Eddie ----------(??) Paul Powell who was very powerful speaker of the Illinois House of Representatives. And 00:47:00that was also during the time that Kerner was elected governor, uh, of Illinois. And up there--I had an opportunity to, to actually see what happens to, uh, political appointees with a change in administration. We were observing the election returns at a secretary's house who was a secretary in the Illinois Legislative Council on election night. And there were invited a number of her friends who were state workers in, in various offices there. And as you, as you saw Republican administration going out and Democratic administration coming in, you saw people literally watching their jobs flying out the window.

DANIELS: To the victor goes the spoils?

BARKER: Yeah. There you go. Yeah. And so you had an opportunity to see that--


BARKER: --and it was very interesting indeed. After that year, incidentally, a great thing happened to me, I got married during that year. I had met, uh, Ruth who was teaching, uh, in the, uh, Division 00:48:00of Business Administration at Southern which is a division at that time, not a college. And, uh, we had of conducted a long distance acquaintance, friendship, courtship for about four years, uh, when she left Southern and went to West Virginia State in Institute, West Virginia. And, uh, and I think in 1960, we both decided this was foolish, let's get together, and we got married. And we stayed married twenty-five years until her unfortunate death in 1986. But, uh, it was very interesting, and she also stuck with, uh, higher education. And when we moved, uh--I'm getting ahead of the story. But 1960 was a very interesting year. I went back to Southern at the end of that academic year for just a couple of months. And, uh, in the middle of July, Charles Hagan who was then chairman at the Urbana department, 00:49:00Illinois at Urbana, uh, gave me a call and said, "Twiley I know you just finished a year's leave at Springfield. Do you think you can get another year? We need someone to assist Jack Peltason because, uh, uh, Danelski is leaving us suddenly."


BARKER: Okay. All right. Okay.

DANIELS: Okay. All right.

BARKER: All right. It's very easy to see--

DANIELS: Dave Danelski?

BARKER: Dave Danelski.

DANIELS: Okay. All right.

BARKER: And, uh, so, I said, "Well, let me check with the, uh, department chairman, the dean, and the powers that be around here and see whether it's possible." And, uh, that was a kind of made to order, because, uh, my new bride wanted to get back closer to home. Home is in Ohio.

DANIELS: Oh, okay. All right.

BARKER: From Cedarville, Ohio.

DANIELS: Okay. Isn't there a university in there?

BARKER: Yeah. It was Central State, Wilberforce, right there.


DANIELS: Oh, right in that area.

BARKER: Cedarville, Ohio. Yeah. This is right.


BARKER: Okay. Uh, and, uh--

DANIELS: That's Wilberforce too.

BARKER: That's Wilberforce. Yeah, Wilberforce is on one side and Central State is on the other side of--


BARKER: ----------(??). Uh, and so the chairman Rodney Higgins was chairman, he said, "It's a great opportunity. Go ahead." And but he had to clear all the way up the administrative ladder and the president balked. (laughs)

DANIELS: Um-hm. Um-hm.

BARKER: And I think the president saw this as the beginning--

DANIELS: Of the end.

BARKER: --the end. Yeah.


BARKER: He talked to me at length about where I could best serve, uh, uh, students and how it was important that, uh, some of the, the people who were training could, could aid students at Southern and places like that.


BARKER: We talked at length about it, and I understood where he was coming from and I was kind of mixed between, uh, certainly moving in the, uh, uh, career kind of situation along with personal 00:51:00considerations that I had. And in the end, uh, he reluctantly did not oppose it and the chairman said, "Go." And I came to Urbana and that's where I shifted my emphasis to the judiciary, constitutional law, civil liberties.


BARKER: All right.

DANIELS: Could--

BARKER: Now, Jack had--

DANIELS: --I ask you how that happened--

BARKER: --Jack had gone--

DANIELS: --because--

BARKER: --into deaning at that time.


BARKER: Yeah. And, and, but he still was teaching one or two courses and I was doing the other stuff. Uh, I always maintained that it was very interesting thing, because Dave had left on a matter of principle. Uh, I think Dave as a lawyer along with his Ph.D. defended a guy who was being canned, he was in, I think, uh, one of the biological sciences, uh, who had advocated free love or something which is very controversial. And he was canned.

DANIELS: Even more controversial in Southern Illinois.


BARKER: And, uh, Dave as a matter of principle said he didn't want to be bothered with the university and left. And that's where that spot came open and I spent a very interesting year there, very interesting year. And, uh--

DANIELS: Could I ask you--


DANIELS: --you see what, what--this is a, it may be, may have been a simple transition--

BARKER: Um-hm.

DANIELS: --from, from what you were doing, an eclectic, uh, course offerings versus, uh, something with more sharply focus in the judiciary.

BARKER: Um-hm. Um-hm. Um-hm.

DANIELS: But in view of your background in state politics and what you had seen in legislative politics, it seems like it was a pretty big jump. Were you--

BARKER: It was--

DANIELS: --not impressed--

BARKER: --it was a big jump except that I had not looked at it as one who was keenly interested in all of the research questions in that area.


BARKER: But at the same time, uh, I knew enough about the judiciary, uh, to, to, uh, do a quick study, there was no doubt about that.



BARKER: And, uh--

DANIELS: I mean in terms of interests--


DANIELS: --not in terms of you ability.

BARKER: No, No, No. Yeah. And then it became very fascinating.

DANIELS: Okay. Okay. Okay.

BARKER: And, you know, one thing lead to another and a very interesting year. It was during that year, uh, that I ran into some interesting students, a guy named Larry Hansen who became a significant legislative aid for somebody in Washington was in one of my classes. And, and we touched base once. I don't know what has happened to him since. But I think he was a, a pretty significant congressional staffer at one time.

DANIELS: Okay. Yeah.

BARKER: Um, and, uh, it was during that period that, uh, I met the people here. Uh, there was a major conference at the university. The president had this major Alton (??) Park Conference.


BARKER: I got an invitation. I was the new kid on the block, and at the same time, suddenly, I think they were beginning to say we need to add some color to the faculty.



BARKER: And I was the new kid on the block. And, and so had dinner one day with some of the guys who were teaching here. And, uh, one suggested--

DANIELS: Chicago?



BARKER: One suggested that, uh, they're going to be adding people as we start getting the faculty together for the new campus and, uh, why don't you drop by on your way up to--Lucius was at Madison, at Milwaukee. And on your way through Chicago why don't you drop by. And in the span of the year I dropped by and we had lunch and--

DANIELS: Now, they were still--

BARKER: --at ----------(??) bar.

DANIELS: --had they finished this campus?

BARKER: No. They weren't finished.

DANIELS: But Navy Pier. Sure right.

BARKER: But they were beginning to build it.

DANIELS: Build, because I served as a lifeguard over there at 15th and, uh, Halsted.

BARKER: Fifteenth and Halsted. Right.

DANIELS: Yes, was a park over there. In the, uh, I can't think of the name of the park, but, uh, they closed it down, I think, the last year of that part was 1957.

BARKER: Yeah. Um-hm. Um-hm. Yeah.


BARKER: Okay. Anyway, uh, I, uh, remember that, uh, I met Harlas Barber 00:55:00who was the, uh, uh, chairman of the division of social sciences. He was to be chairman. There was a guy named Riddle was the chairman. And he was quote the resident political scientist.


BARKER: And I also met Milton Rakove, uh, who was the kind of intellectual on the democratic machine and Daley here. And, uh, so I was offered the position, uh, and a third person, a third political scientist, as we sat down and began to prepare the curriculum for this new department. And, uh, we ended up, a lady who is very prominent in APSA now Doris Graber--

DANIELS: Oh, sure. Sure.

BARKER: --was the person hired the next year after I was hired. So we were the four people who actually wrote the curriculum. And, and we prepared to move on over to the new campus when it opened in '65. And, uh, that, of course, was an interesting, interesting kind of thing. And in the meantime, um, I continued to do a couple of interesting things. 00:56:00Illinois had had a, uh, at large election. Uh, we refer to it as a bedsheet ballot kind of thing. Under the Illinois Constitution if the legislature does not do the reapportionment. And see we had had Baker v. Carr you know. If the legislature does not do the reapportionment, then it goes to a special, uh, reapportionment commission, bipartisan.


BARKER: Uh, but, uh, I think it was ten at the time. And, uh, but, any, uh, any agreement must be reached by seven people which means that two people from the other party would have to join it.


BARKER: And, of course, that's, that's a prescription for deadlock.


BARKER: And we're deadlocked.

DANIELS: All right.

BARKER: And they subverted the constitutional, uh, I think, uh, uh, they subverted the meaning of this, the intent.



BARKER: Grab that word there, the constitutional intent. The intent was to make the possibility that you would get shut out completely. That the parties would agree and you would not reach the at-large election. You got it?

DANIELS: Um-hm. Um-hm.

BARKER: Okay. All right.


BARKER: So that meant at the time, I believe, there were a 177 members in the Illinois House.


BARKER: That meant that, uh, it would be a possibility in an at large election that you could elect 177 Democrats and no Republicans or vice versa. But the party subverted this by having state conventions, and I went down to look at this. They met in Springfield and the parties had state conventions and they determined that, uh--no, the legislature. I take it back. The legislature, uh, in preparing for these conventions, 00:58:00uh, enacted legislation which prevented a party for nominating more than 118 candidates. Okay. So each party nominated 118 candidates. I went to the party conventions where they nominated.


BARKER: That was the subversion because it meant that no one's going to get shut completely out. All right. So they actually ran his huge bedsheet ballot. And I did a piece from that investigation which appeared in the National Civic Review. A guy named Bill ----------(??), I guess was doing it. Called "The Long, Long Ballot." (Daniels laughs) Very interesting, very interesting thing there. And I remember, I followed that up a few years later with "Illinois Tries Again" or something like that. A couple of pieces I mined out of that operation. Still keeping in touch with that state politics kind of thing.



BARKER: And it was in that period too as I began to work at the new campus--


BARKER: --that Lucius and I started collaborating. And, uh, we did a volume of, of in-depth case studies on landmark decisions. And I remember using the law library in the University of Chicago, practically all one summer. Uh, looking at the records and briefs of the Supreme Court and all of the other stuff there. And, uh, we did this thing, uh, which included Gideon v. Wainwright. It included Mapp v. Ohio. It included Engel v. Vitale. I don't remember all of them. I think there were eight all together.


BARKER: We did it. And, and we followed, we were informed in this by, uh, the piece which was done, uh, who did that piece? I can't think. 01:00:00Huh.


BARKER: Somebody did the piece. Did a case study, Anatomy of the Constitutional Law Case by Alan--

DANIELS: Oh, Westin.

BARKER: --Westin.

DANIELS: Westin.

BARKER: Westin, yeah.

DANIELS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

BARKER: And we kind of used that, that format as the thing which we ended up doing. I remember calling, um, um, the, the lawyer who handled the Mapp case in Ohio, and concluded that he was not a very sharp guy. He just had a good case. Had a good vehicle.


BARKER: But he was not a very sharp guy.


BARKER: I remember calling and talking with--


BARKER: --and talking with him about this. A rather interesting thing that happened too is that we did, Feiner v. New York, that was one of them that we did. And it was very interesting, uh, uh, uh, response to that. I got a letter years later, because we revised that book once.



BARKER: It was, it was first published by Prentice Hall in '65 and we revised it in '72. And years later I got a letter from Feiner of Feiner v. New York.


BARKER: And he said, very interesting, he said, "You know, I was kicked out of school." Yeah. We knew he was kicked out of school because he was leading this demonstration. And, uh, but, uh, actually he was charged and convicted for disorderly conduct or whatever it was--


BARKER: --by making this speech on this street corner in a changing neighborhood. And he was on his soap-box and wouldn't move when the police told him.

DANIELS: Right. Right.

BARKER: And, uh, in a sense he did serve a little time. But he said, after that he went into business, apparently made an awful lot of money in the process. But decided somewhere later in his life that he was going back to Syracuse and finish his degree. And then he was in law 01:02:00school when he wrote me.

DANIELS: Oh, is that--

BARKER: So ----------(??).

DANIELS: --right?

BARKER: And he also pointed out that it was not the way that you had reported it. (Daniels laughs) I wrote back and told him, I said, "We used the records and briefs of the Supreme Court."


BARKER: "And this was our data, verbatim"


BARKER: And he said, "But I know I was the petitioner."

[Pause in recording.]

DANIELS: Okay. Sorry about that.

BARKER: He said, "I know. I was the petitioner. This is the way it happened." And you know we had a very interesting exchange.

DANIELS: Was it a minor point?

BARKER: Uh, don't remember what the point was.

DANIELS: Yeah. But he did.

BARKER: It was, it was probably minor. It didn't change the, the conclusions that we reached--


BARKER: --about the particular case. Lucius and I had a very interesting thing about how we got the name of this, this volume too. Notice we gave it the title Freedoms, Courts, Politics:--


BARKER: --Studies in Civil Liberties. We were in his office at the University of Wisconsin in Milwaukee. And there was a philso-, a philosophy professor named Cornelius Golightly and C.L. came, we called 01:03:00him C.L. C.L. came by and said, "What are you guys doing?" We said, "We trying to really finish this thing up and we're trying to play around with the appropriate title for it." And he sat there, and sat there. He said, "You guys talking about freedom aren't you?" "Yeah. We're looking at the interaction of the courts in politics." "Freedom, Courts, Politics." That's how we, we had a rather interesting kind of--


BARKER: --colloquy that took place in the office.


BARKER: When we were kicking around terms. That's how we came out with the title.

DANIELS: Um-hm. Okay.

BARKER: Very interesting indeed. Okay. Uh, at the same time, uh, I, uh, did a piece called, what was it, "Reapportionment Guidelines." I did a piece on reapportionment, on reapportionment guidelines. And, uh, what was the other thing? I did another piece on, uh, the 01:04:00obligations of school boards in school desegregation. It grew out of a paper I read at a school desegregation thing in St. Paul, Minnesota.


BARKER: I came back and put that together as a little piece. Uh, then a few years later, uh, we got into civil liberties and the constitution. And we are now going into the seventh edition of this thing, working on the manuscript this summer. And that first came out in '70. And we've been doing about every three years since then, three or four--

DANIELS: Seventh--

BARKER: --years.

DANIELS: --edition?

BARKER: Seventh edition. And we're getting ready for that. So and there's been bits and pieces. Michael and I did this piece in the first volume--

DANIELS: Michael Preston?

BARKER: Michael Combs.

DANIELS: Michael Combs, oh, Michael--


DANIELS: --Combs. Right.

BARKER: We looked at the first year of the Rehnquist Court.

DANIELS: Right. Right. Right.

BARKER: Yeah. We did that piece there. And it was something, anyway 01:05:00that's, that's, it's kept me busy. And I have in the process stayed very much active with APSA. Um, in fact, uh, I'm, uh--

DANIELS: Could I just interruption you there and say if--ask if you can remember your initial kind of involvement with the, uh, with the, uh, the association? Were you, uh, uh, a regular, uh, uh--

BARKER: Yeah, uh, uh--

DANIELS: --member? Did you attend--

BARKER: --beginning--

DANIELS: --meetings?

BARKER: --beginning in the mid-fifties after the Ph.D.


BARKER: I started attending the meetings.


BARKER: Uh, Emmett Bashful incidentally was another Ph.D. from Urbana who taught at Southern for a while while I was--


BARKER: --there.


BARKER: And you know he became chancellor in the administration of the Southern University of New Orleans campus--


BARKER: --before he retired. Uh, but no to get--in the mid-fifties I started going to these things. And I became a discussant on panels 01:06:00somewhere in the late fifties in, in New York as I recall, the meetings in New York. And, um, then, uh, I, uh, got very active in the sense of, uh, getting appointed to the program committee at the Midwest during the, uh, judicial panels. Putting those together--


BARKER: --as the person coordinating those. I did the same thing with APSA. Uh, I was the person who got, I think, the initial call from David Easton when he was president about the committee on the status of blacks. Easton was--


BARKER: --over at Chicago and I was here.


BARKER: And I suggested to David that it was great idea and that he ought to select somebody from one of the historic, one of the historic black 01:07:00institutions to be the chair. And that's where Paul Puryea came in.


BARKER: Paul was at Fisk.

DANIELS: He was at Fisk then. Right.

BARKER: That's right, Paul was at Fisk.


BARKER: And so I was on that initial, uh, committee on the status of blacks as we--that got us more involved then in the APSA activities. Um, and, you know, you became visible and requested book reviews by APSA, APSR.


BARKER: And, uh, I was one of the guys in the department who was quite active. A lot of the other guys were not that, you know, they were here and there and not that active.


BARKER: And then, of course, uh, there was the appointment to, uh, election to the council.


BARKER: Uh, and, uh, I had came into the council, uh, when, um, Seymour Martin Lipset was leaving the presidency, and then Bill Riker assumed the presidency. And I went out under Phil Converse. So I worked 01:08:00with those. And, uh, during two--under both Riker and, uh, under, uh, Converse--


BARKER: --I was on the administrative committee.


BARKER: And active with that. Uh, I was with the group that helped select the first, uh, uh, APSA black fellows under the APSA fellowship. That was with Bob Martin--


BARKER: --and Paul Puryea and I'm not sure who the other person was now. But we were in ----------(??).


BARKER: Um, I, um, I was very active with the Pi Sigma Alpha group here too. Um, all undergraduates at one stage, total about five hundred and 01:09:00fifty majors, and we got involved in getting them active in these kinds of operations. And we established a chapter of Pi Sigma Alpha in 1981 through my initiative. And, uh, we, uh, have been active ever since. In the course, uh, I was elected to the council of Pi Sigma Alpha and just completed a, a term. And then Neal Henderson is still, I think, on the council--


BARKER: --as I recall, ----------(??). I've been active with that as well. Looking back, also, it has been very, very fulfilling, very interesting. Probably a lot of things that happened along the way that I didn't mention but can't think of them right now.

DANIELS: Well, maybe I can tease a couple--

BARKER: Well, yeah.

DANIELS: --of them out of you. Uh, the association, of course, has, uh, 01:10:00gone through a number of changes. Uh, it, I dare say, it's probably doubled in membership--

BARKER: Yeah. Um-hm.

DANIELS: --over the years. Uh, it--

BARKER: That's interesting too. I think my membership dates back to 1955.

DANIELS: So you come right--

BARKER: Thirty-five years.


BARKER: Continuous.

DANIELS: Continuous. Thirty-five years.


DANIELS: So you'll be forty years pretty quick. Right. (laughs)


DANIELS: Uh, but the thing of it is--there, there were intellectual trends. I think you've outlined your--

BARKER: Um-hm. Um-hm. Um-hm.

DANIELS: --your research, uh, uh, clearly what motivated you--

BARKER: Okay. Was ----------(??) the behavioralist--

DANIELS: --but --

BARKER: --and the neo-behavioralist?

DANIELS: Yeah. Did you have any--

BARKER: And that sort of thing.

DANIELS: --obviously, um, I won't say obviously maybe you did get involved in some of this.

BARKER: No, not in the--

DANIELS: Maybe the behavior stuff.

BARKER: Um, my general position in that debate was that there is enough 01:11:00room in political science for all of us, my general position. And so, you know, if there were people who wanted to follow the behavioralist position. Fine. Uh, and, you know, of course, the traditionalists would ----------(??). I took no hard line on either, on either side. Uh, the public choice people now are fine, go ahead. Um, the critical theory people, fine, if you want to go with that.


BARKER: And so I took no pos-, my position was live and let live--

DANIELS: Okay. Would you say--

BARKER: --in terms of the philosophical debate.

DANIELS: --that that position is now reflected in, for example, the American Political Science Review? Uh--

BARKER: Well, there are some who feel that, uh, that we ignore a lot of interesting policy kinds of questions and policy research, uh, uh, at 01:12:00the expense of people who are numbers crunchers in a sense. And, uh, I don't know though I've picked up some recent, uh, volumes of the Review and find that it's, it's, uh, fairly broadly based.


BARKER: And that you get the orientation of people who do, uh, behavioral research and people who do critical kinds of things. That kind of traditional kinds of research.

DANIELS: So you find some of that?

BARKER: Some of that.

DANIELS: Another--

BARKER: I think it's, it's--

DANIELS: Another position would be that, uh, you get, uh, uh, some of it there, but there are many more outlets for publication, uh--

BARKER: Right. Yeah. And if you'll notice for example, uh, that Law and Society Review for example, um, provides a significant outlet for people who do all sorts of things in looking at courts and looking at 01:13:00greater action of, of the political agencies with, with the courts and that sort of thing.


BARKER: I was reading a piece this morning with respect to affirmative action and the implementation of Title VI. And I noticed that there was not a single bit of quantitative measurement in this.


BARKER: But it was a very good piece pointing out, uh, the pressure points of interest groups--


BARKER: --of administrators, the attitudes that they brought to, uh, uh, the position in terms of the level or intensity of enforcement and the like. And it's a very interesting piece over all. It certainly could have been done otherwise with the other approach, but it was a very interesting thing.

DANIELS: Do you have any observations about the, uh, the founding and the development of the National Conference of Black Political Scientists--

BARKER: Yeah. I think that it's useful.

DANIELS: --1969.

BARKER: I was there when it happened.



BARKER: I think it's useful. Uh, my position on that was that it was useful and there was no problem with, uh, being very active in both organizations. The National Conference of Black Political Scientists and of, uh, the APSA in the Midwest or whatever--


BARKER: --other regional thing that one wanted. I thought it was, uh, the kind of thing that offered a, a broadened outlet in terms of presenting papers, getting involved. And it was good for young black people and encouraging them to enhance that scholarship. I thought it was very good for them. Where they might not have been able to get on the APSA's program to read a paper or to serve as a discussant or what have you. Just simply broadened their opportunity to do so.


BARKER: And I thought it was very useful, and, and have since remained very active with it.


BARKER: Not as active as I wanted to be the last few years. I kind of 01:15:00stumbled when I lost my wife, but at the same time, I did kind of pick up things and--

DANIELS: Um-hm. Um-hm.

BARKER: --become even more active. I know there was a stage where I should have become even more active in terms of the leadership of that organization, but I've simply remained as committee person.


BARKER: No, no, uh, other involvement.

DANIELS: And the Midwest has been--is considered perhaps the premier regional association.

BARKER: Well, I served on the council of the Midwest just recently.


BARKER: And, uh, it's, it's indeed been very, very, uh, successful. Uh, The, uh, American Journal of Political Science, the Midwest, uh, uh, journal, has indeed been very successful. But probably one of your two leading regional ones out there along with The Journal of Politics in the Southern--


BARKER: Yeah. So it's, it's been--

DANIELS: What, what--

BARKER: --active--

DANIELS: --what accounts for that do you suppose? Would you subscribe to 01:16:00the view that, uh, that, uh, the major or significant class, uh, act, uh, scholarship was appearing--

BARKER: Well, there a lot, but--

DANIELS: --in this region?

BARKER: Not necessarily so. There are a lot of institutions of higher learning in the Midwest.


BARKER: But at the same time it is not a provincial organization in the sense of its restricted boundaries are Midwest.


BARKER: It has even brought in officers from other areas of the country. So it is in a sense, uh, in name Midwest, but in practice it is a national operation.


BARKER: Uh, look at the program. And I remember about four or five years ago. I put together the judicial panels. And I had requests to read papers from all over the country, West, South--

DANIELS: I went to New York.


DANIELS: My first paper I've ever read--


BARKER: This is right.

DANIELS: --'67, I think, --


DANIELS: --was at, in the Midwest from New York. (laughs)

BARKER: Yeah. I see. So, you know, I think to the credit of the leadership of the Midwest Political Science Association, uh, it has continued to expand in terms of participation rather than narrow.


BARKER: And so any political scientist who wants to participate if he's doing something which can be useful on a particular panel, bring it in. And therefore you get very good--and I think, I might be very frank about it, we've had it here in Chicago for about the last ten straight years.


BARKER: And people want to come to Chicago in April, beautiful place to visit you know.


BARKER: And, uh, it's--one of the things I regret is that we have not had plenary sessions which mixed the real tight scholarship that you get in the panels with the papers reporting on the research and stuff. 01:18:00We have not had that, uh, uh, we've not had that supported with plenary sessions where we bring in very significant, uh, practitioners.


BARKER: I think a little of that. I remember, for example, listening to, uh, Roy Wilkins for example in one of these things.


BARKER: And, uh, who was the other person? And you might bring it, uh, was it Moynihan came in, I think, once too.


BARKER: Where you actually have an opportunity to, okay, this is what the guys are studying. This is what we're doing. This is what we are finding in the panels. But now let's look at some of the interesting policy questions as the--


BARKER: --actors, the key actors are involved in it.

DANIELS: Oh, and you're confronted with this ----------(??).

BARKER: Yeah. I think APSA ought to do that as well. I think all of them ought to do this.



BARKER: APSA meets in Washington about every three years, and I think one of those sessions ought to be devoted to that kind of thing.

DANIELS: So that I was--you know, it's interesting, I, I'm now looking toward the future, and so you've indicated in terms of the professional associations, uh, in their annual meetings that they could devote a little bit more, uh, to the practical side--

BARKER: Well, I just think one of the--

DANIELS: --in terms of the--

BARKER: --one of the plenary sections--sessions. It has been done.

DANIELS: It has been done.

BARKER: And I just think we got away from it.


BARKER: And this is not to, this is not to, uh, diminish the significance of the, of the scholarly--


BARKER: --research--

DANIELS: You think it would--

BARKER: --analysis--

DANIELS: --add.

BARKER: I think it simply adds to it.


BARKER: This is right yeah.

DANIELS: In terms of your own personal research--

BARKER: I want, I want, I want to see, for example, uh, I want to see, uh, what people are finding out there, uh, that is interesting in terms of politics. I want to see what they're--

DANIELS: And they might also, uh--


BARKER: --doing. How it adds up. But at the--

DANIELS: --give us some--

BARKER: --same time--

DANIELS: --idea of what, what we as the quote professionals might do to assist them.

BARKER: Um-hm. Yeah. Um-hm. Yeah.

DANIELS: We think we're on the cutting edge--

BARKER: Actually, actually--

DANIELS: --maybe we are maybe we're not.

BARKER: --at the, at the, I guess it was the last meeting of the National Conference of Black Political Scientists.


BARKER: Earl Lewis made the key address remember at that dinner--


BARKER: --meeting.


BARKER: When he ticked off a whole bunch of things saying, "We need to have you guys working on this, this--

DANIELS: Right. Right.

BARKER: --and that."


BARKER: Okay. This is what you never will forget. That, uh, these are the kinds of issues that, and certainly those practitioners out there might well be in business and we need more data on this kind of stuff. We need some very, very critical, uh, studies made that would, uh, uh, enlighten us and expand our knowledge on this thing. Here are the things that we don't know.


BARKER: You know, you guys ought to get out there and find out what's going on.

DANIELS: Help us out.

BARKER: Yeah. This is right. Uh, I, I intend in the next few years to 01:21:00kind of move in, in the direction of--I got two pieces of papers that I did of, uh, and they're still out there rough on the desk. Uh, you remember I told you that I looked at your favorite person.


BARKER: And his first amendment in jurisprudence.

DANIELS: Right. Thurgood Marshall.

BARKER: Thurgood Marshall. In fact, there's a lady from our public affairs office who was talking about you. I said, "No, I don't want you to see it. It's too rough yet." "Well, let me see it rough." (Daniels laughs) And I got a copy of it out there.


BARKER: But I wanted to look at that.


BARKER: And, uh, and the other thing is that, uh, uh, Michael and I decided a sequel to that piece we did in 1989 on the Rehnquist court.

DANIELS: On the first year.

BARKER: On the civil liberties.


BARKER: Yeah. And so, in fact, I read in Jackson, a segment of that 01:22:00which I'd already done. Looking at it again.


BARKER: So that's where we're going there. I guess I'll probably, uh, do another three to five years in in--I think I might have mentioned to you in conversations earlier that, uh, upon my retirement whether it be three, five whatever, I intend, if things do not, uh, turn adversely to spend a few years visiting historic black universities and colleges. You go back to your roots in a sense. And I've already talked with Sam Cook a former colleague who is at Dillard. And, uh, maybe in 1995 or so, I might want to start, uh, giving them a year, semester or year 01:23:00of my time without compensation.


BARKER: And, uh, I'll undoubtedly go to Southern where I began. Uh, Gloria Braxton knows this, and so we've been--and, and I know that--in fact, the president is a lady named Spikes--

DANIELS: Spikes.

BARKER: --a mathematician.

DANIELS: Dolores Spikes.

BARKER: And Dolores, uh, indicated to me that, "You remember you encouraged me to go to Urbana when I got out of undergraduate school." I didn't remember that I had encouraged her, but she did a master's in math at--


BARKER: --at Urbana and the Ph.D. at LSU. Um, but, um, I think I'll probably make that. I want to go to New Orleans first; I got a sister down there. And I might do it two or three years and, uh, see what happens.

DANIELS: See what happens.

BARKER: See what happens there. But that's how I'll end this, this career. And Lucius has already told me, we need to start bringing in a couple of younger guys on the civil liberties book. I don't know, I think we can stand to do it. I'd like to see it reach ten, I don't know. Because Prentice Hall is concerned that it doesn't get out, 01:24:00doesn't get dated, you know.

DANIELS: Right. Right.

BARKER: And so we try to do it every three or four years.

DANIELS: Well, it's a very important book--


DANIELS: --and you want to keep up. You don't want to--if the people, if they have to find something else, there's no guarantee that they'll come back to you.

BARKER: I resisted, I resisted what you are doing. I resisted administration.

DANIELS: Um-hm. Um-hm.

BARKER: And your deaning now.


BARKER: And, uh, I had an opportunity in the late 1960s to move into administration and turned it down. And turned it down principally on the basis that I liked interacting with people in the classroom, the guys in the department. But also one administrator in the household is enough. (Daniels laughs) And at that time Ruth was, uh, in administration at one of the city colleges here. And, uh, I can remember saying to he--the position which was offered was like assistant dean of faculties which later became vice-chancellor for, uh, 01:25:00academic affairs.


BARKER: There's a guy named Glenn Terrell who later became president of Washington State who had talked to me and he said, "I'd really like you to take this position." We worked it out. It would have been an interesting thing. And I remember--but I was supposed to give him an answer at the board of trustees meeting.


BARKER: Because he was anxious to present the name to the board of trustees.


BARKER: At nine o'clock down at the old LaSalle Hotel where the board was meeting. And, uh, I remember that night I said, "Ruth I don't think I'm going to take this." Can you imagine it must have been like 10:30. The telephone ringing and on the other end is Glenn. "Glenn Terrell here, Twiley. There's a meeting I was supposed to make at Urbana tomorrow at ten o'clock. I can't go, would you be there?" (laughs) And so I picked up and grabbed the car and ran down to Urbana early in the morning. And I said, "I don't think I can deal with this 01:26:00kind of stuff." That kind of was the way.


BARKER: And then more and more I got involved with the department and seeing it grow and develop.


BARKER: We grew from four to about twenty-eight. That was our high.


BARKER: We grew from about four to twenty-eight. And, uh, uh, Harlas retired and, uh, when he retired, I think, we brought in Dick Johnson who is, who is back now chairing. Uh, and, uh, Milt died. For about s-, seven or eight years ago, I guess, now. And, uh, that left me as the senior person in this department right now. Doris is, is a year behind me in terms of seniority. So, you know, but we, we are downsizing. Everybody is what we call streamlining.

DANIELS: Streamlining.

BARKER: Which means that you deans will take every position that becomes vacant down. (both laugh)

DANIELS: And that's only because we received our--

BARKER: An interesting--

DANIELS: --our marching orders--

BARKER: --an interesting phenomenon--


DANIELS: --from a higher source. (laughs)

BARKER: There's an interesting practice developing though. Uh, let's say that Professor X in biology has reached the age of sixty-seven, sixty-eight. And decided "Well I've had it. I think maybe I'll quit." And his chairman said, "Can you go a couple of more years, because if you quit we lose that line."


BARKER: "Bill Daniels is out here ready to pounce on it."


BARKER: That's developing.

DANIELS: I don't know.

BARKER: That's developing. I've heard of this.

DANIELS: Um-hm. Um-hm.


DANIELS: Well, I think these days, though, people can hang around as long as they wish. And I don't, I don't know that, uh, we encourage them one way or the other has anything to do with the people. My, uh, uh, my faculty are, they're making their own plans. I think the financial arrangements are what they're trying to set up.

BARKER: Um-hm.

DANIELS: And once they look acceptable to them--


DANIELS: --they're gone.

BARKER: That's very interesting.


BARKER: Very interesting indeed.


BARKER: You know, um, encouraging youngsters to study political, 01:28:00political science as a profession has been a hard sell. Um, I haven't done it recently. Uh, right now I am the principle advisor for undergraduate majors, and uh, I see students who have excellent academic records. And, and try to inquire, uh, whether or not they wish to continue studying political science. And the response is to a great degree, "Well, I'm not sure whether I want to make the commitment of that time." Somehow or other what we have is expanded the time to reach the Ph.D. to limits that, uh, look to most people insurmountable.

DANIELS: They're unreasonable.

BARKER: Yeah. Uh, when I came through--

DANIELS: I think nationally we have to--

BARKER: --when I came through--

DANIELS: --to look at that.

BARKER: --I think I spent a total of four years between baccalaureate 01:29:00and Ph.D.

DANIELS: Not anymore. The average is--

BARKER: Six, seven.


BARKER: Maybe more. And, uh, many kids are saying, "No, I'm not sure whether I want to do that." And they head to law school. And, now I see--

DANIELS: And then, they're guaranteed out in three.

BARKER: Out in three and then they look at the payoff. You know, there's a--Charles Willie at Harvard gave a, a, you know Chuck Willie?

DANIELS: No, I don't.

BARKER: He's a professor of educational policy, something like that, Charles V. Willie. I heard him make a talk to a group of kids once. And he got the question about an academic career thrown at him. But are, are those careers going to improve in terms of, uh, remitteration, in terms of pay. And, uh, he said, "Well, people say that they are low paying positions." But he said, "You'll make enough." That was his 01:30:00answer. "You'll make enough." Well, it's lifestyle and that kind of thing--

DANIELS: Absolutely.

BARKER: --that answers.

DANIELS: It is lifestyle.

BARKER: Right. Right.

DANIELS: You know it is difficult to sell a youngster today on lifestyle--

BARKER: Well one of the things that I have--

DANIELS: --when they want a new car.

BARKER: --in trying to get black kids interested in this. Uh, I had about three last year who were sharp kids and tried to convince them that it might be wise for them to look at this. Because a lot of guys like me are within the last decade or last five years of their careers. And, uh, the numbers are, are not increasing out there in terms of entry into graduate schools.

DANIELS: That's right.

BARKER: And, uh, but, uh, they have so many other options. See, when we came along, I don't know about--you're a little younger than I am. When I came along, the options were not many. And so you considered this to be a very, very viable option. Uh, now the options for these 01:31:00youngsters are great. I have some kids who have been taking the constitutional law and constitutional rights and liberties course. And who are doing a double major in criminal justice and moving into the cr-, criminal justice system with a bachelor's degree. And so, here are people who might have been able to handle a Ph.D. program.


BARKER: So that's, that's one of, I think, one of the impending problems that we're going to run into. There is not going to be enough out there.

DANIELS: In the short run.

BARKER: ----------(??), that's right.

DANIELS: Thank you very much Professor Barker.

BARKER: Okay. I enjoyed it. Uh, somebody will find this interesting.

DANIELS: I'm sure they will.

BARKER: At least for now. (laughs)

[Pause in recording.]

DANIELS: --subject Twiley W. Barker, Jr., uh, the interviewer William, William Daniels. The date August 30th, 1991. The site is the American 01:32:00Political Science Association Convention in Washington D.C. Uh, this is tape three of three. Uh, the subject of this tape will be, uh, Professor Barker's perspectives on his work with the American Political Science Association and his work with the Wahlke Task Force, uh, on, that took a look at the undergraduate curriculum. Uh, Professor Barker.

BARKER: Bill when we talked early we had mentioned my involvement in APSA activity. And I think in that recent review of, uh, membership, my membership goes back to around 1955. So it's been approximately 01:33:00thirty-six years with APSA involved. Uh, and I have been to most of the annual meetings--

DANIELS: During that time.

BARKER: --during the time. Uh, even when I taught at Southern in Baton Rouge there was always some money available somehow that we could get an opportunity to, to--

DANIELS: What did you do? Drive in those days. You drive up to it.

BARKER: I remember that, uh, Emmett Bashful and I and, uh, and Emmett was the subject of one of these interviews earlier, uh, were teaching at Southern and Emmett had a new car. We drove to New York, uh, to an APSA meeting. (Daniels laughs) And as I recall, we lived in a crummy hotel there, uh, The Henry Hudson Hotel. I thought it was cruddy, but probably wasn't. I think the convention was in that hotel, The Henry Hudson Hotel.

DANIELS: That was in the late fifties?

BARKER: That must have been in 1956 or seven. Somewhere around there.


DANIELS: Because I believe the, the AP-, the, the association went back to New York in 1961.

BARKER: Okay. All right. So I've been continuously involved. More so when I joined the University of Illinois, Chicago faculty. Uh, involved in a number of activities. Uh, uh, I organized judicial, uh, uh, panels on a couple of occasions. I know I did it in Chicago, uh, sometime in the seventies I believe. I recall that we had a panel set up on a Sunday afternoon, we went overtime that period. And, uh, the audience consisted--

DANIELS: Why did --

BARKER: --of the panel and about two other people who showed up. On a beautiful Sunday afternoon in Chicago. (laughs) Um, and, um, there were a couple of years spent on the council. And, uh, it was during 01:35:00the period, uh, I came in when Bill Riker was president and I stayed over for, um, Phil Converse's presidency during the second year. And in both instances I sat on the administrative committee, uh, during that time. So it was a good experience and I thought that it was very beneficial for me and I hope I made some small contributions. One of the things I remembered during Bill Riker's ----------(??). Met as an administrative committee, uh, here in, uh, APSA, uh, uh, office on New Hampshire, and we stayed in the Duke Mont (??) Plaza Hotel--

DANIELS: Across the street.

BARKER: --almost right across the street.


BARKER: It was in February and it snowed like mad that day. Uh, I came in on the afternoon and, uh, it was a Thursday afternoon, Thursday 01:36:00evening around 6:30 or so. And I remember that the cab driver said that, "It's supposed to be a heavy snow here tonight." And we woke up the next morning and it was snowing. And we got a bite to eat and walked across the street to the APSA office. And we were supposed to end the meeting late that afternoon. And I had reservations to go back to Chicago and, uh, around noon, the secretary came in and said that, she's holding our rooms for, uh, Friday night because the airport is closed, and you will not be able to get out of here. And we trudged through the snow. And I remember that, um, Tom Mann was the executive director, and Tom had to get a shovel and dig us out of the door, out of APSA office to walk across the street to the Duke Mont Plaza. Tom had to stay here.


BARKER: He couldn't get home. And, uh, we ended up eating at a 01:37:00restaurant behind the Duke Mont Plaza as I recall. We came back and we all found out that we had an interest in bridge and we played bridge half of the night. (Daniels laughs). And, uh, then I think Bob, Bob St. Claire was on the council as I recall it. And the next morning we were trying to figure how we were going to get to the airport. So, uh, nothing much was moving. And around, I think, probably had breakfast and we ate breakfast. And I told Bob, "I was going to the airport in the first thing that I saw moving." And around eleven o'clock a guy did show up in a cab in front of the hotel. And, uh, I took it. He got back out. The roads were in fairly decent shape. And I sat in the airport from around 12:30 until five when a plane did take off for Chicago. And I got back. But that was a very interesting experience there. Um, more recently--

DANIELS: Do you recall what the burning issues of the day might have been at that time?

BARKER: Uh, we were talking about organized sections, I think.



BARKER: And, and, and, uh, the scope of their activity and something in terms of, um, the financial resources. How much APSA would probably need and how much would go to the sections. I know that was one of the things that came out. My memory's been dimmed by the passage of time in terms of other issues that might have--

DANIELS: Well, you know it's interesting --

BARKER: --come up at that time.

DANIELS: --because we now, of course, we do have the organized sections.

BARKER: Yeah. This is right.

DANIELS: And, uh, we have, uh, just admitted one more organized section. And, uh, the membership requirement is one hundred signatures.


DANIELS: Of course, these must be dues paying members to the association.

BARKER: That's right.

DANIELS: The, there's a, a committee that's reviewing that and the question now is in order to keep the center together we are now thinking of grandfathering in all of the organized sections that 01:39:00presently exist. But that maybe up the ante to a hundred and fifty.


DANIELS: That's how many, that's how many we have now and how popular they are.

BARKER: I know the law and courts section, I went into this afternoon, uh, the room was too--

DANIELS: It's the second--

BARKER: --small.

DANIELS: --largest.

BARKER: The room was too--

DANIELS: --the second largest--

BARKER: --small. Last year the room was too small. This year the room was too small.

DANIELS: Really.

BARKER: So you know there's a big, uh--


BARKER: --attendance at these, these kinds of, uh, at this particular kind of activity. I do think we probably got into dues and, and how the annual membership fee ought to be. We did have some discussion about that. I don't think it was that controversial. Uh, and that might have come during Phil Converse's term. But there were no really earth-shaking issues that caused a great deal of anguish among members of the council as I recall it. I think earlier, there might have been a 01:40:00few in terms of, uh, expanding the minority fellowship kinds of things.


BARKER: But that had been pretty much settled.

DANIELS: By then.

BARKER: Yeah. By then.


BARKER: Yeah. Uh, just recently in '89, uh, there was an interesting, uh, activity in which I was involved with, uh, the Association of American Colleges, uh, where it had a grant to look at the major of the, uh, disciplines involved in the AAC operation. This is a kind of national organization of institutions with liberal arts colleges.

DANIELS: Right. Right.

BARKER: And they were interested in looking at in-depth, uh, study of disciplines.


BARKER: And in-depth learning. Uh, and, uh, a very interesting organization. I recall that we had our first meeting, uh, let me back 01:41:00up here just a moment. Cathy Rudder called me and said, uh, that, uh, it would be, uh, she wandered whether I would be available because my name had been suggested as serving on the Political Science Task Force. And she told me that John Wahlke was going to chair it and I said, "Fine. John's a great guy. I'd like to work with John."


BARKER: And, uh, so it turned out to be a very interesting task force.

DANIELS: Do you recall how many members were on it?

BARKER: Let me see if I can Larry Beer (??), I'm not sure where Larry, Larry was at Swarthmore or something like that.


BARKER: The lady at Delaware, University of Delaware, who's name escapes at this time. But, uh, uh--(pause)--Oberland, Kahn--



BARKER: Oberland. Ron Kahn. Ohio State's chair. Um--

DANIELS: Ripley?

BARKER: Yeah. Rip. Rip was on. Uh, a couple of ladies from the East who's names I can't--

DANIELS: Okay. So, it's a nice session.

BARKER: It's just I'm getting old, can't remember the names that well.

DANIELS: Well, we, we can--

BARKER: But it was a very interesting task force. And I, I distinctly remember Larry Beer, uh, because Larry was concerned with the centrality of law in the discipline. And that we did not do enough to encourage our majors to look at the role of law, uh, in, in politics. And in a section of law and politics. And, uh, emphasized that at least we ought to have departments be very, uh, sensitive to the 01:43:00need of courses like that as they go about restructuring. Um, I do recall that we focused on looking at the introductory course and that experience there. Uh, as I recall our report which is out now, uh, and I think Cathy sent that to all departments did indicate that if departments have resources it would be a good idea for them to not only have the traditional American politics course which, of course, was pretty much standard fair in most of the, uh, institutions. The data which was collected indicated that that was pretty much the widespread introductory course. But also a kind of introduction to the discipline itself, uh, where you are looking at concepts and things that political scientists deal with. But looking at the methodologies that political 01:44:00scientists use in order to study political questions and issues. Uh, we also looked at the cognitive, uh, courses but, uh, we ought to encourage our students to dig deeply into, uh, some of the other social sciences as they focus on the major. Um, Larry emphasized also the fact and I think, probably joined in by, uh, John Wahlke, that our majors suffered from, uh, from what we find now, considerable geograph- , geographic illiteracy.


BARKER: And that there ought to be a pretty heavy emphasis on this, uh, and you've seen some of the public things about kids just not knowing simply place geography, you know. Uh, and so there was some emphasis there. We talked about the need for, uh, students to write more which 01:45:00everybody's talking about now.


BARKER: To be able to, uh, bring the things that they have learned, certainly in terms of the methodologies that apply to particular kinds of problems. And to actually do that in a hands on production through a senior seminar or something like that. And so we did emphasize the need for some kind of culminating experience at the end of the major. Some people talked about the comprehensive exams. We did not, we did not suggest that as one of the things we preferred. We simply said, "Departments ought to look at a cul-, culminating experience."


BARKER: And you could probably use an array of different experiences in ----------(??). I know in our department at UIC, uh, that the College of Arts and Sciences last year adopted the writing in the discipline, 01:46:00uh, uh, requirement for all liberal arts majors. And it has to be an upper level course where they get that experience.

DANIELS: Okay. So that's--


DANIELS: --at University --

BARKER: Yeah. It must be--

DANIELS: --of Illinois at Chicago--

BARKER: This is right. And it must be taught by a regular member of the faculty.


BARKER: Preferably a tenured member of your faculty.


BARKER: And so--

DANIELS: So you don't push it off on a junior member.

BARKER: --what--yeah. So what we designed was to require all of our majors, uh, in the senior year to have a choice of one of four seminars in the specific areas. I know there is a seminar in American politics. There's a seminar in comparative politics. There's a seminar in international relations. And, I think, there is a seminar in, uh, law and politics. We did whatever ----------(??). But anyway, that 01:47:00would be, those would be taught periodically. So then one semester you might get the ----------(??) uh, seminar. And those students who say this is where they want to have their quote writing in the discipline experience which means they will be able to bring about a integration of everything they've learned in that particular area. Apply the discipline to the particular problem they want to look at--


BARKER: --and come out with a well polished paper in the end.

DANIELS: So this--

BARKER: Or they might--

DANIELS: --this--

BARKER: --wait the next semester and decide I want to do mine in American politics.

DANIELS: So this experience, this curriculum that you are now outlining, uh, that is now in effect at the University of Illinois, Chicago--


DANIELS: --is the one--

BARKER: This is the kind--

DANIELS: --that the committee endorsed?

BARKER: --this is the kind of thing that we said that departments ought to--

DANIELS: Ought to do.

BARKER: --consider. This is right.

DANIELS: Okay. Now, let me ask you this.

BARKER: And we just happened to have been involved with our Colleges of Arts and Sciences saying, "This is the thing we want to do."

DANIELS: At the same time?



BARKER: And we just happened to been on the same page.


DANIELS: I would like to ask you in terms of the points that you've made now. In terms of cognate courses in political--

BARKER: Yeah. Um-hm.

DANIELS: --science, methodology, a capstone, uh, uh, course that synthesizes the discipline, writing in the discipline. And ask you to look back at your own education. Uh, did you have anything that might be comparable to that? Or, or did students in those--

BARKER: As an undergraduate--

DANIELS: --in those days just not have that? (laughs)

BARKER: As an undergraduate you did write.


BARKER: You did a paper. I remember there was an economist, uh, who really taught a course which was entitled Bibliography and Methods.


BARKER: And, uh, it was more of social scientific methodology, uh, and you had to produce a major paper. That was at Southern in the late forties. And so at least you had some idea of, of what--and he stressed cultural context, very interesting.

DANIELS: Oh, yeah.

BARKER: I mention that he--we had--one of the first things we read was a 01:49:00book by a historian called The Cultural Approach to History.

DANIELS: The Cultural Approach to History.

BARKER: Yeah. And he stressed context.


BARKER: And, you know, we all talk about context now. And so, uh, it was helpful, you know, we've got the, I think, the nuts and bolts of, of how you go about producing a paper. Uh, and gathering data and, uh, the appropriate kinds of evidence that you use in terms of, uh, trying to support a particular thesis that you have out here. Um, but no, it was not, it was not as sophisticated as it is now. Uh, by no means. Uh, the, the, the other thing which I found interesting out of our task force report, uh, was the emphasis on, uh, real world experiences. Uh, some kind of experience that the major ought to be able to have 01:50:00that allows him to apply theory to certain practice out there. And so we focused on internships. Uh, and I notice in our department that there has been a heightened interest in internships. Uh, one of the, the person in our department Jerry Strong who is the graduate director, I do the undergraduate stuff. Jerry and I met with the alderman in the ward in which the university is located this summer. And he had a proposal that he wants to institute within the next year or so in which each of the wards will make available an internship. So there would be fifty.


BARKER: Involved.

DANIELS: Fifty wards in Chicago.

BARKER: Fifty wards in Chicago and interns--and he wants to start it with us. He said, "I'm not phasing out the other institutions."



BARKER: "But I'm right here in your backyard." His office is right down the street from the building in which we were.


BARKER: And he said, "I want to start it here." And what he was saying is that he wants to get his colleagues to sign on to this on the city council. And so we would, uh, start a certain criteria that they're looking at. And certainly they would have to follow the academic component that we're looking at.


BARKER: And then we would select a person in the senior year. He--we're battling over whether or not we'd go down to the junior year. We, we prefer the senior year.


BARKER: Uh, but we're battling, of course--

DANIELS: That'll be sort of that--

BARKER: --they would have--

DANIELS: --capstone--

BARKER: --they would have at least five political science courses before they--


BARKER: --could even look at this.


BARKER: All right.

DANIELS: And this would serve as a capstone--

BARKER: This would not be a capstone--

DANIELS: --course?

BARKER: --course. Oh, no.

DANIELS: This wouldn't be a capstone.

BARKER: No, this would, this would be in addition to that capstone.

DANIELS: This would be the real world--

BARKER: This would be the real world--

DANIELS: --experience, theory in practice.

BARKER: --experience, the internship. Yeah.


BARKER: And so what he was say--what he was saying was that they would get an opportunity to delve into electoral politics. The terms of their getting elected to the city council. Uh, their legislative, uh, 01:52:00responsibilities in terms of them preparing for committee hearings and that kind of thing as they got involved into drafting ordinances and stuff like that.

DANIELS: Um-hm. Um-hm. Um-hm.

BARKER: And they would be involved in constituency kinds of concerns, uh, meeting with constituents and that kind of--so it would have the whole range of all demanded responsibilities. And they wanted them for a year. Not one semester, for a year.


BARKER: Okay. The other thing that we're--

DANIELS: How many students could they take?

BARKER: --still in the process, uh, that would be fifty students. You see fifty wards.

DANIELS: One, one for each alder.

BARKER: --one for each alder--

DANIELS: Okay. One for each alder.

BARKER: This is right. Uh, and we would be hard pressed too, to get fifty students.

DANIELS: Get fifty students.

BARKER: Get fifty students--


BARKER: --you see.

DANIELS: It would probably end up getting some from--

BARKER: Because--

DANIELS: --Roosevelt and other places.

BARKER: --they--we would. Yeah. We were talking in terms of having them do this one half day. And they would get six credit hours for it.

DANIELS: One half day for the year.

BARKER: One half day--

DANIELS: Per week?

BARKER: --uh, one half day, which would be at least four days a week or something like that.



BARKER: We're talking in terms of that.


BARKER: And that they would leave their, leave their regular classes on campus and go down to the alderman's office by one o'clock--


BARKER: --and stay there the rest of the day--

DANIELS: Oh, okay.

BARKER: --and into the night or whatever they wanted, you see.


BARKER: But if they wanted to pick up two or three other courses on campus then do it the mornings you see.


BARKER: But we haven't worked it out yet. But at least it's out there.

DANIELS: Okay. That's an intriguing--

BARKER: Now we do have--

DANIELS: --idea.

BARKER: --we do have some right now though. We do have some internships right now. I have a guy in a customs house right now. Uh, we have a structured course, the academic component is that one they must read several volumes dealing with the particular activity and do a review essay of the volumes they have had. And they must identify a particular problem that they want to examine in-depth and produce a paper. And then there is the constant contact between what we call the supervising instructor on the campus and the agency supervisor of this individual. 01:54:00Okay. I have one in a states attorney's office in one of the suburban areas. I think it's in, uh, DuPage County in the victim witness program that they have there. Very interesting indeed. Uh, uh, and uh, we have had some rather interesting experience. I had one guy in EEOC, uh, who spent a, a quarter working in EEOC on an internship. And he got into all the kinds of EEOC regulations and stuff like that. And so they come across our desk pretty--we have a standing, uh, internship in the office of a north side state legislator. A guy named Ellis Levin who has wanted one every term in his office. And, uh, they do all kinds of state legislative concerns. So--

DANIELS: I'd like to--

BARKER: --it has--

DANIELS: --get us back to the--


BARKER: --it hasn't been widespread.


BARKER: But the, the AAC study the task--the Political Science Task Force--


BARKER: --simply said, "We should take advantage of the rich experiences in which, uh, our institutions operate."


BARKER: Certainly for those like ours.


BARKER: We're right in the middle of it.

DANIELS: Right. I want to follow up--

BARKER: Yeah. All right. Okay.

DANIELS: --on that. Did the, did the AAC, uh, task force, uh, look at diversity or, or multiculturalism issues--


DANIELS: --or was this a way for your urban institution to become involved through internships and did they specifically--

BARKER: It--that report recognizes the rich diversity of, of the subject matter of political science.


BARKER: It recognizes the rich diversity of our students that we teach. It recognizes the cultural diversity out there and that certainly our 01:56:00kids ought to be encouraged and if not required, uh, to look at other cultures. And so there's a great deal of emphasis on looking at the, the, uh, cultural diversity of states and of governments--

DANIELS: Okay. So this was recommended by the--

BARKER: --and things like that.

DANIELS: --task force?

BARKER: Indeed. Indeed. It's in the task force report.


BARKER: Uh, I'm not sure whether there is a specific recommendation. Probably is. Regarding comparative politics.


BARKER: I'm pretty certain there is. I'm pretty certain there is. I know, for example, that our data we collected from, uh, the survey of departments--


BARKER: --shows a fairly heavy emphasis on comparative politics courses. I know, for example, at our institution, we require our majors to take at least one comparative politics course. Uh, and a number of them take two and three. We offer a range of comparative politics courses from the introductory general stuff, uh, all the way to areas 01:57:00including. We have a Far-Eastern guy who does China, Japan, uh, and, uh, I think he does Korea. Uh, ----------(??)---------- who does that.


BARKER: Uh, we have the Latin American stuff, for example, not as much of it as we ought to have sitting in Chicago with all of those Latinos. This is one of the things that we are working with. Uh, but we do have quote the Latin American politics course. But there is a Latin American studies program on campus, and, uh, we do have the Eastern Europe, the Soviet Union which is a hot thing now. Uh, we have Western European democracies and we do have Africa, south of the Sahara and we had a specialist in Northern Africa who died last year unfortunately. But he, uh, went into Algeria and all those places like that and, 01:58:00and had a lot of contact in that area. We have Middle East, uh, Frank ----------(??) does that. Uh, so we have a range of those courses that students take. They must take at least one course in any of them.


BARKER: Yeah. This is right. So, uh, what I think you're going to find is as departments take another look at their, uh, major. They may find that it will be useful to use the task force report, uh, and look at some of those suggestions that are made in terms of--

DANIELS: What was the recommendation that departments, uh, departments just could look at this--

BARKER: Yeah. See--

DANIELS: --to be made available--

BARKER: --in other words, we did not offer a prescription out here.


BARKER: We are saying that, "Look, periodically you look at your majors."



BARKER: Uh, and that, "Here are some things we think you ought to look at and consider as you go about making changes and alterations in your major." And that we think that, as we approach the twenty-first century, a, a major in political science ought to have experienced these kinds of things. Okay. And I--it's being made available through APSA office. I think, um, Blanche--Sheila--

DANIELS: Sheila--

BARKER: --is beginning to make that available. And there were undoubtedly a couple of panels devoted to the discussion. I know that last year the APSA there was one. I think there might be one this year. I think John said something about there might be one devoted to this year as well. Uh, AAC is trying to get some additional funding to 02:00:00follow through on this. I just had a letter from them a few months ago.

DANIELS: Follow through?

BARKER: I don't, I don't know what the next step is. Because I got the letter and I was in a hurry and I put it on my desk.

DANIELS: But this is for the American Political Science to do more with the APSA.

BARKER: Yeah. See AAC, American Association--

DANIELS: --American Association of Colleges--

BARKER: --of Colleges--


BARKER: Spearheaded this.


BARKER: And is trying to keep these task forces together and to take what they would consider the next step. They're into learning in-depth.


BARKER: And, of course, encouraging disciplines to have students probe deeply into. And therefore moving away from that, you know, tendency of just survey stuff. You know, hopelessly ----------(??) particular ----------(??). I found that a very interesting experience. Very interesting. Um, Pi Sigma Alpha is something, I don't know whether we 02:01:00raised as well. And, uh, I was with the council of Pi Sigma Alpha for a while.


BARKER: Uh, I found that very interesting indeed. But you know they are involved in this particular project--

DANIELS: Right. Right.

BARKER: --as well.

DANIELS: The Pi Sigma Alpha and the APSA--

BARKER: Yeah. That's right.

DANIELS: --contributes five thousand dollars a year to this project.

BARKER: Yeah. So I've been very active with them locally and for the last, uh, three years on the executive council, uh, nationally. Uh, locally, we haven't done as much as we wanted to do with Pi Sigma Alpha. Uh, we are pretty hard nosed on academic requirements to enter the--


BARKER: --chapter on our campus. We require a student to have a 4.25 all university grade point average. And a 4.5 average, this is out of 02:02:00five, scale of five, for admission to the society.

DANIELS: Oh, so that's very--

BARKER: Very--

DANIELS: --restrictive. Yeah.

BARKER: Yes, very restrictive. We tend to take in. We've been doing it each spring.

DANIELS: Right. Right.

BARKER: We tend to take in about a dozen members.


BARKER: We miss a few, and this happens in all institutions. We miss a few. Uh, the reason why we missed them is that we have a lot of students who do what we call double majors.


BARKER: And, uh, I ran into one for example the other day who's doing a history major and a political science major. But apparently declared the history major first.

DANIELS: So he's listed there.

BARKER: And he's listed as a history major and they have the files. But the student came in to review her course, because she intends to graduate in--


BARKER: --in May. And she said, "I am a dual major." And it turned out that this student had about a 4.7 average. So a prime candidate for Pi Sigma Alpha. We would have missed, because our secretary goes through 02:03:00the records in the office--

DANIELS: Um-hm. And if the record's--

BARKER: --in order to identify--

DANIELS: --not in the office you can't go--

BARKER: --candidates.

DANIELS: --with it.

BARKER: So we miss a few here and there. Okay. Uh, we've, we've had a different experience in terms of the active nature of the student population in the organization. Uh, a few years ago we had leadership, uh, women, who were in their late twenties and early thirties. They had come back to school and they did a tremendous job, programmatic job. And then the last couple of years the leadership has been traditional, uh, nineteen, twenty, twenty-one, twenty-two. And they're into everything and they don't have much time for this.

DANIELS: For this.


DANIELS: Uh, you talk about students, uh, and the, the cohorts and so forth. Uh, have you been involved at all with the, with the Ralph 02:04:00Bunche Institutes?

BARKER: I have not participated in them, but I tried to send them some students.

DANIELS: Okay. Good. Good.

BARKER: Yeah. Uh, I think this is a ----------(??) try to encourage it more. But one of the things that's very, very difficult here is to convince minority students to go for Ph.D.


BARKER: Now, this, I've talked to a couple of guys. I think I got them on the right track about applying for the Ralph Bunche Institute ---- ------(??). But the fact is that there is not a willingness to make a commitment to that amount of time when there are so many other options out there.

DANIELS: You mean the summer program?

BARKER: Yeah. It's--

DANIELS: As well--

BARKER: --there's so many options this year.

DANIELS: --the graduate school leading to a Ph.D.

BARKER: This is right. Yeah.


BARKER: Many options out there and some don't want--when we were coming along in graduate school we didn't have all those options out there. 02:05:00And, of course, it was not that much of a, a, a selection of, of possibilities out there to what was going on. But, uh, we, we probably find that you're getting a fairly good number. And that's a great thing. I wish it could have happened when, when I was coming along. That was a tremendous experience. But, you know, you just walk out of an undergraduate institution into the, into the fire, graduate school. These kids at least have their opportunities to see what it's like.


BARKER: And tremendous, I think, uh, uh, resource made available by APSA in keeping that stuff going. And this is one of, one of Jewel's babies.

DANIELS: Yes, Jewel Prestage. Yes. Yes, indeed.

BARKER: I think that we may have mentioned this in the earlier tape, uh, but Jewel is an academic child. I taught Jewel at Southern.



BARKER: And, uh, I've had an opportunity to teach Shelby Lewis, uh, Mack Jones, and, uh, we, uh, have run across what we call academic grandchildren around who were, uh, students of Jewel and Mack and Shelby Lewis. So it's been a very interesting, uh, experience here. Uh, Michael Combs who you ran into and I just having dinner you see. And we did a piece on the Rehnquist Court. Uh, in fact, uh, in '89, I believe in '89, in the--

DANIELS: National Political Science Review.



BARKER: And we were just talking about, uh, trying to look at our timetable to--

DANIELS: Update it.

BARKER: --look at it, yeah. To look at it now. Uh, and, uh, so I'm going to be doing that parallel with the, uh, seventh edition or 02:07:00revision of Civil Liberties and the Constitution because I've got certain responsibilities for that, and I will be looking at those kinds of areas in, in putting together the, the article that Michael and I are working on. But it's a, it's a full plate.


BARKER: One of the things that I have experienced particularly in the last decade or so is very heavy involvement in university politics and ----------(??). Uh, there are a lot, a lot of us there.


BARKER: And the university has been very sensitive to the need to at least have representative committees on almost everything. And they wanted a senior person of color on the faculty. I get involved in much of it.

DANIELS: Quite a bit of that.

BARKER: In much of it. It takes a heck of a lot of time. Heck of a lot of time. Uh, I have had experience on the College LAS Executive Committee. Uh, and right now on the LAS Educational Policy Committee--


DANIELS: That's Liberal Arts and Sciences.

BARKER: This is right. Liberal Arts and Sciences. Where we review proposals for doctoral, uh, doctoral proposals. Last year, for example, uh, we reviewed anthropology. I think we reviewed one in Spanish.


BARKER: Takes a lot of time to do that.

DANIELS: Oh, yeah.

BARKER: And, of course, the executive committee you get involved in promotion, tenure kinds of things.


BARKER: And that can get you in a whole array of other kinds of issues that would be--

DANIELS: Have you had any cases that have come up involving, uh, black Americans in promotions and tenure and so forth?

BARKER: Yeah. We've had one or two that ----------(??) uh, in fact, uh, I don't think we've had any where the allegations were that there might have been racial considerations in denial or anything. But we've had a couple where we thought the university's rigid, uh, tenure criteria 02:09:00were just not applicable to that particular case. We lost a top flight African-American historians, one of John Hope Franklin's students, uh, who was good. But his publication record was short and he was having trouble getting a major manuscript produced by the Illinois Press at Urbana, uh, on the history of Harlem which was taken from his dissertation. And it's going to be a top flight paper. But the tenure clock ran out on him before the book got out. And Northwestern picked him up. And as I recall coming out of that meeting of the executive committee, uh, one of his colleagues in the history department said, "You know, we are going to suffer from this in the long run. Uh, what is going to happen is that somebody will pick him up. Give him an additional six years to get tenure and he will have that book, and they 02:10:00will reap the benefits of him."

DANIELS: And more.

BARKER: And so we were looking at the lack of realism in terms of the six year tenure deal, you know, you can go up to the seventh year. For all practical purposes you got six years to make the case. And we were looking at the, uh, at the time it takes to get pieces through the refereed journal kind of thing. And, uh, nobody states how much is enough of that. And, of course, usually you want a book. And so therefore a book and several good articles in refereed journals is going to work the hell out of you in six years.

DANIELS: Oh, coming right out of graduate school this is almost an impossibility unless you got something--

BARKER: So we were--

DANIELS: --right --

BARKER: --looking at the lack of realism in terms of that, that calendar on the tenure situation. I've seen a couple of very, very difficult cases where we lost people who were darn good. And their production 02:11:00was very moderate and understandably in a period of six years. At least we've had some discussions, uh, and I think it has come up at the presidential level about whether or not we ought to take a look at the heavy demands on publications only. We, we require, we have the three part type kind of, uh, tripartite kind of requirement teaching, research and service to the university in theory. In practice it's research, and no--

DANIELS: Research first, uh, teaching affect is the second.

BARKER: Research first. Research second. Research third.


BARKER: In practice. Uh, we will look at it, but it's, it's in the end it's what you've got out here in terms of what's in prac-, --

DANIELS: Even for those who are--

BARKER: --response--

DANIELS: --primarily undergraduate teachers?

BARKER: Yeah. This is right. ----------(??). We don't separate it that way.

DANIELS: You don't separate.

BARKER: We don't separate that way. And so we've taken a hard look 02:12:00at that. I think as our--am into my last five years or so. As I bow out, I think this is one thing the university is going to have to come to grips with. I think it is very unrealistic to expect a guy fresh out of graduate school in six years to produce a book and six or seven articles in refereed journals and don't look at anything else. You know, we tell him we're--well, we don't even put our young, uh, uh, tenure track people on many committees. Maybe a departmental committee or something like that. The library committee or what have you. But we try to keep them away from that. Uh, and, uh, so that they will have the time to do their research and, um, and, um, it's, it's tough. We're losing a guy this year who's damn good. I think he's produced one or two things but that's it. The tenure clock is running out on 02:13:00him.

DANIELS: Might there be any other, uh, points that come to mind now or--

BARKER: I kind of think some--a couple of personal things might be interesting here.


BARKER: Back in, in, um, back in June, I--

DANIELS: June of this year.


DANIELS: Nineteen ninety-one.

BARKER: Yeah. I was asked to attend a meeting where I was given an honor by the, uh, University of Illinois Chicago Black Alumni Association. And, uh, in the process of preparing some remarks which I knew I had to make. I kind of looked back over my career in terms of the number of students, uh, uh, who had been in my classes and with whom I had an opportunity to interact. And I did a ballpark figure 02:14:00which I think was a fairly accurate one.


BARKER: There must have been almost ten thousand students back over the time of the eight years at Southern and the--


BARKER: --the thirty years, almost thirty years here--


BARKER: --at the University of Illinois. And it's been a rather interesting experience. Last night, for example, my daughter who's in the corporate world. And, uh, she's with one of the big advertising agencies in Chicago and gets tickets to everything going, uh, as these advertisers deal with their clients.


BARKER: And the new White Sox Comiskey Park--


BARKER: --in Chicago has these luxury suites up there. Companies that pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for them. And she called me and said, "I've got two tickets to the White Sox's game. Could you be my guest Daddy?" So I said, "I gotta go to Chi-, to Washington tomorrow. Okay. I'll, I'll." Last night we went to the White Sox ball game 02:15:00and we went into this suite where you go into this area. You ride on a plush elevator. You get out onto carpeting floor--carpeted floors. And you go into this suite which seats probably about twenty-five or thirty people.

DANIELS: Oh, okay.

BARKER: And plush chairs.


BARKER: And the glass in front of you as you sit down right behind home plate and look at it. And on top of that there is all kind--they have all kinds of food and drink. Uh, and, uh, you sit down and eat your dinner. And then at the end of that, uh, some guy comes by with the dessert tray with hundreds of thousands of calories sitting on it. And I, I kind of look back on that as very funny. And I was sitting there on--I sat up front. Somebody tapped me on the shoulder and said, 02:16:00"I visited your class about seventeen years ago and you were teaching civil liberties and the constitution. And I was visiting a class with my boyfriend who I married." And I turned around and this guy had been in my class. He's a big time executive with the McDonald Corporation in Oak Brook. I said, "Well how did political science lead you to that?" Well it's very interesting that he did go into business but with political science background.


BARKER: And so one finds that happening all the time. Having touched students of all years.

DANIELS: Yeah. In one setting, so you're right there where they.

BARKER: I've enjoyed it. I've enjoyed it. And I think I told you in the early part of this interview that, uh, I intended to visit, uh, historic black colleges and universities.

DANIELS: You did mention that. Yes. Yes.

BARKER: I think I'll probably go along another three to five years at 02:17:00UIC before I, I pick it up. I don't want to go all the way to seventy but I'll be close enough to it. I feel fifty. (both laugh)

DANIELS: Well, that's good. That's good.

BARKER: Yeah. I feel fifty. This is right. Well, Bill this is about it.

DANIELS: Well, I want to thank you--


DANIELS: --Professor Barker. This is the conclusion of the Pi Sigma Alpha, uh, oral history interview with Professor Twiley W. Barker, Jr. And this is, uh, Bill Daniels the interviewer. This is the end of tape three. Thank you very much.


[End of interview.]