00:00:00MULLINAX: Okay. This is a oral history interview with Mattie Mack
from Brandenburg, Kentucky for the University of Kentucky Family Farm Oral History
Project. And this interview is being conducted by Maureen Mullinax. All right.
To start out why don't you tell me basically your name and
where you were born.
MACK: My name is Mattie Mack and I was born and
raised in Fayetteville, Georgia. And we worked on the farm as migrant
workers. My grandmother had a farm and, and so--I've just, you know,
been a farmer just about all of my life--
MULLINAX: Right.
MACK: --in Fayetteville, Georgia. But I went to Tuskegee and I
was there about a year and a half. And that's where I
met my husband and came to Kentucky.
MULLINAX: Um-hm. Is he from Kentucky originally?
MACK: Yeah. He is from Shelbyville, Kentucky.
MULLINAX: Shelbyville. Um-hm. Was he a farmer?
MACK: Yeah. He was--he finished at Kentucky State University in ag, agriculture,
00:01:00and then he went to Tuskegee for three years for a veterinarian.
And he--he had to go to the service. Two years in the
army we never--he never did get back.
MULLINAX: That was--that was back in?
MACK: 1956.
MULLINAX: Okay. So he went to Korea?
MACK: No, went to Germany.
MULLINAX: Germany.
MACK: He went in as a boxer. He likes to fight.
Yeah.
MULLINAX: Um-hm.
MACK: And he went in as a boxer and did real
well.
MULLINAX: Um-hm.
MACK: Um-hm.
MULLINAX: All right. Let's go back to your, your family.
MACK: Okay.
MULLINAX: Can you tell me about your parents?
MACK: Yeah. My mother--it was eighteen of them in the family.
MULLINAX: Oh, my.
MACK: And they was migrant workers. I mean well they'd migrate
from one farm to another and they--really back there in those days
they didn't have tractors and--and stuff like that you know. And so
00:02:00when a farmer--migrant people that would work on the farm with large
families. Well, that was an asset to that farmer. You know, so
many could do so much. Raising cotton, corn and hay and everything.
He had to do with the mules and they had lots of
mules and they had to plow and stuff like that. Then my
mamma and daddy had eleven children. Had two sets of twins and
nine girls and two boys.
MULLINAX: Okay. Can you, can you take me back through your
parents and the children that they had. The ages and the names
and where these people are now?
MACK: Well, quite a few of my uncles and aunties is
dead.
MULLINAX: Um-hm.
MACK: I think only uncle and auntie I have left is--I
got, I got two aunties and about two uncles. The rest of
00:03:00them are all dead.
MULLINAX: Where do they live?
MACK: In, in Georgia. They live in College Park, Georgia. And
they, they are back there in those days, you know, people was
known as bootlegging. You know, they make up white lightening, whiskey. And
so they did quite a bit of that bootlegging just because--so they
keep at--on the--on the corn, you know, it's made out of corn
and everything like that. But I just have to tell them they
are old and they don't do that much now.
MULLINAX: Were they migrant laborers as well?
MACK: Yeah.
MULLINAX: And they did the bootlegging--
MACK: Yeah. Yeah.
MULLINAX: --on the side.
MACK: Yeah. Yeah. Just for the same farmer. And they--they was
accused--a lot of them was accused of looking at women of another
race, white women and everything. And they was ran out of the
county. Some of the people, friends of ours, was hung. And I
know for myself that right across the street from us, a cousin,
00:04:00was castrated by a Klu Klux Klansman. And they--they was coming around
our place with--with a lot of cars. They'd be a lot of
cars. And you didn't know who they was. They had the hoods
on. They would be around about fifty or seventy-five cars and they
would just come around in the black neighborhoods. They'd never go around
the white neighborhoods. And they would come around in the black neighborhood
and if they saw you on the street and sometimes they would
break into your house. And then you just got a good beating
for nothing.
MULLINAX: You remember this?
MACK: Yeah. I think--yeah. Yes. And a lot of times my
mother had to take us to the--to the woods and we stayed
in the woods all night long. And we slept on just pine--we
had pine trees in Georgia and we stayed in the woods all
night long. Keep them from injuring the family and stuff like that.
00:05:00
MULLINAX: How old were you during this period?
MACK: I was--well, my sisters and I we was around about
nine or ten years old. And, and coming, you know, we had
a man that would stand watch in, in the community just like
we you start on the street. We had dirt roads. And most
of the other people, white people, had blacktop roads. And we had
ditches and holes and things like that in the road. And so
they would come around there and just harass you, you know, you
know. And I, I remember me working after school for a lady
and her name was Mrs. Trimble. And she's dead and gone now.
And she had a--she adopted a daughter. Nancy was her name and
Mr. Trimble had a lumber yard. And we used to play in
00:06:00that lumber yard and it was just lumber on top of lumber
and everything. And so I worked for her cleaning up and everything
and she liked the way I cleaned. And she told me she
said now, "If you ever go to school and anything don't get
married and always sew." She was a gypsy. And she said, "I
will make your outfit." She sewed for people and she was a
beautiful seamstress. And so, "I'll make your wedding dress and I will,
I will give you two outfits to wear, but you've got to
be a good girl."
MULLINAX: Give you two what?
MACK: Two outfits.
MULLINAX: Outfits. Oh.
MACK: You know, two outfits that to go off on your
honeymoon and everything. So I had something to look forward to at
that point, you know, and everything. But she always told me not
to ever open that closet door with the key hanging out. You
know, back there in those days people had those old hall doors
with the key hanging in the door and, and so she said,
"Don't ever open that door." And I had worked for her about
00:07:00two or three years. So one day I got curious and they
were wonderful to me. I didn't have to eat on the back
porch. I sat down and ate with them and I felt so
different. You know, I was bashful, because we never, you know, I
used to work--go with mamma into work for people. Wash windows and
stuff and we had to eat on the back porch or out
in the yard. So I felt different, you know, sitting down and
eating with them and everything. And all at once--it's my daughter. Cut
it off. Cut it off.
[Pause in recording.]
MACK: And she always said not to look in that closet.
And at that time I guess I was twelve, thirteen. So they
went to Louisville and I was to clean the house. So I
decided to open the closet up, the door. And when I opened
that closet door there was hoods and those robes. And I looked
00:08:00at them and I took off. I ran home. I was scared.
I was just scared to death. I was just scared to death.
And I ran all the way home and it was about a
mile away. I never stopped and I had to go through the
woods and I think the leaf of the tree, at that time
I didn't know it, touched me on the shoulder or hit me
in the face or something. And I thought that was the spirit
of something. Oh man I'm telling you when I got home. Mamma
said "What's wrong with you?" I couldn't even talk. And she threw
a bucket of water in my face, you know, to try to
revive me up. I couldn't--I, I don't know--I still feel what I
felt back then. I couldn't describe it. So I was scared to
death and I told her when I finally came around. And she
said, "You can't be true--I can't believe that Trimble is one of
them." I said, "Yessum, mamma they are." When Mrs. Trimble came back
00:09:00from Louisville, her and Mr. Trimble came over. Well, they scared the
daylights out of me. I didn't know what they were going to
do, because back there in those days. Whites could do anything to
blacks and the law said they--they did justly because they was white.
And we never--so they got out of the car and they came
into our little home. We had a three bedroom, three room house.
MULLINAX: For eleven children?
MACK: Eleven children. And four slept in the bed.
MULLINAX: Four, four kids?
MACK: Four kids slept in the bed. And so she--they came
in the house and they said, "Come in." And they called me--nick
named me Little Sister and my twin sister was Big Sister. They
said, "Come here Little Sister. Now sit down and let us talk
to you. You opened that closet door didn't you?" "Yes, Ma'am." She
said, "We have to wear the hood and the robe." She said,
"If we don't, they told my husband we'll burn up all your
00:10:00lumber--all of your lumber if you don't participate in this ride." And
she said, "We, we can't afford to let our lumber be burned
up buy them. So we had to join them, but we are
not one of them." That was music to my ears and she
just hugged me and everything. Made me--reassured that love was there. So
she eventually took them down.
MULLINAX: Took down the--
MACK: The robe and hoods out of that closet. Where she
put them I'll never know and I never did search to find
them. So what she said really turned me on. And my mamma
was a cook at the jail there in Fayetteville, Georgia and she
was a cook. And there was in the Depression was on and
you couldn't buy lard and meal and stuff like that and meat
and everything. And by her being a cook a Mr. Joe Jackson
he, he would come around our house around about eleven or twelve
00:11:00o'clock at night. And he would knock on the door, "Roxy. Roxy."
And mamma would say, "Yeah. Mr. Jackson. What's wrong?" And he said,
"I got you some stuff you help you with these children." And
there was some good white people back there in those days. And
he said, "Now, put this under your bed and don't tell nobody
I've been here and everything." Says, "We getting this food in there
to feed them--them people and jail." Says, "We've got kids out here
too." And so we got a lot of people that really helped
one another under cover. You couldn't bring it out in the open.
Back there we had lard and meat when people couldn't get it,
but we could get it.
MULLINAX: Back then in the Depression.
MACK: Yeah. Back there in the Depression. And then my mother
worked two jobs. She worked at the jailhouse and then she worked
at, at a cafe. And she'd bring us hamburgers that people would
bite off of one or two. And we would cut that out
and we would have a hamburger. That's the only time we could
have a hamburger and everything. It was rough. It was rough and
00:12:00we always made sure the little ones got fed first, you know.
We'd sit back and--she would could--we would have biscuits and sorghum syrup.
We made sorghum syrup and everything. That's what we would eat the
majority of the time because we didn't know nothing about other stuff.
We thought everybody ate like that. We didn't know nothing about being
poor, you know. Working hard and everything. Take and go to school
with a biscuit and syrup sandwich. Going to cotton field with two
or three biscuits with syrup and we thought everybody ate that.
MULLINAX: When you were, when you were young then your dad
was a migrant worker?
MACK: My dad was a mechanic. And my daddy was a
mechanic and he was a born in mechanic. He--he could tell you
what's wrong with that car going down the road if he could
hear something wrong with it. He could tell you. He was good.
And he would fix people's car and they'd say, "We'll pay you
tomorrow and tomorrow never came." So that throwed the hardship on the--on
00:13:00the four girls that was big enough to get out and work.
So after they had the trucks going, you know, in our community
picking up people to take them to the fields. Chop cotton all
day long for three dollars a day. And when the cotton got
ready. After we got through chopping it and everything for weeks and
weeks and weeks, then we had to turn around and pick it.
Pick cotton. And you got what you picked, you know. And me
and my sisters always raced. We always picked over two hundred pounds
of cotton a day. And so that brought in extra food, I
mean, money to keep food in there and buy blankets and spreads
and stuff like that.
MULLINAX: So you were one of the four oldest children?
MACK: Yeah. Me and my sister we are the oldest.
MULLINAX: You are the oldest.
MACK: Um-hm.
MULLINAX: And then after you came?
MACK: Charlotte, Sara and we are the four oldest girls. And then
00:14:00after six girls we came a boy. And then after four came
another boy. And so we really had to work hard. And then
I worked for Dr. Sam and he still in practice now. He--his
daddy was the superintendent of the school and it was--it was kind
of rough, but Dr. Sam was always nice to me. I was
always the evening cook. And I cooked and--and the kids would go
off to college. He had two boys and a girl. And the
kids go off to college and they always come back to see--see
me you know and everything when--when I was--they would send me extra
money and stuff like that.
MULLINAX: Did you give that money back to your family then?
MACK: Yeah. We would, we would always give mamma the money.
She would give us around twenty-five cents. And we would take twenty-five
00:15:00cents and go to the store and get us a Coca-Cola cost
five cents. And we would get candy and crackers and stuff. We'd
have a sack full of stuff and everything. And that was--that's all
we wanted, you know. And we would go to school a lot
of times when we were working with shoes with the holes in
the bottom. We'd put stuff pasteboard in the bottom of them. And
when the road was full of water and everything. So we didn't
want our shoes wet and everything. We'd take them off and go
around that water and go through that water and get on the
other side and dry our feet and put them shoes back on.
And because we--we knew that was--we couldn't get no more and everything.
And went to church in the wagon and the mules took us
to church. And we went to church every Sunday because that's something
we looked forward to. And--
MULLINAX: The whole family would go?
MACK: Yeah. The whole family would go. Even when we picked
00:16:00the cotton it would be me and the women picking cotton or
chopping cotton. And they would sing in praise to the Lord and
everything to make things better and they would shout and they would
pray and sing. And it went on all day long. And then
when Sunday rolled around, you know, when you got to the top
of the hill you could hear the people praying and open up
devotion and everything. And we rejoiced there all day and wouldn't even--wouldn't
think nothing about it.
MULLINAX: How many, how many people would be in a church
like that?
MACK: Oh, church would be packed. Church would be packed old
farmers and everything and other people. And they always thanked God for
what he had done for them. And it wasn't air conditioned or--and
we had to be kindle up the old fire a big pot
bellied stove for heat and everything. And people would walk and walk
and walk to get to the church and stay all day long.
And things that bother me now. Everybody is riding and nobody is
00:17:00going to church. You know, people have put God on the back
burner and they don't give him the praise that--that they should. We
have left God out of the picture. Since we are doing so
well, we got a little money in the bank and we don't
need God anymore. And so the churches are closing down and you
see so many churches closing down and the people are just not--just
not interested any more in God. And that's why the world is
in such a shape that's it in--in a terrible shape and it's
going to get worse before it gets better.
MULLINAX: Can you tell me about school? You said that you
used to walk to school.
MACK: Yeah. We walked to school. We had--our school was an
all black school and it was in a black neighborhood and we
would get there early. And we would get there around about seven
00:18:00o'clock, me and my sisters, and we always made the fire. So
the school would be lite up. So we had to get up
at five o'clock and milk two cows. So our--the young children would
have milk. And then get them ready and everything. And then we
would walk to school and we would make the fires. And our
principal at that time was Miss Jackson. A little old short black
woman. She was--she was rough. You didn't give her no, no, no
static. She--when she whipped you she would take your clothes down, your
pants down and she would have a belt. Make you lay down
on that bench and she would wear you out. The kids would
scream and holler but she would get their attention and believe me
that school was a school--outstanding school.
MULLINAX: Was a what?
MACK: That school--our school was an outstanding school.
MULLINAX: Outstanding. Um-hm.
MACK: Yes. Because you didn't have all of this--this stuff you
00:19:00see on TV now and everything. And none of the black--none of
the--we never did have school buses. All the blacks had to get
to school the best way they could. Just the whites had the
school buses.
MULLINAX: How far would be come from around to school?
MACK: Oh, two and three miles.
MULLINAX: How big was the building itself?
MACK: The building was a two story building. Had an upstairs
and a downstairs. And was just--it was--and it was one of those--the
foundation was red brick and it had a stack of red bricks
here. And then big opening through there and another stack here and
everything like that. At the school and everything. And right there beside
it was Fayetteville Baptist Church and that was our church and a
pool in the back of the church.
MULLINAX: A pool?
MACK: Um-hm. A baptizing--you would be baptized and everything.
00:20:00
MULLINAX: A deep pool?
MACK: Yeah. Um-hm. All concrete.
MULLINAX: Um-hm.
MACK: Um-hm.
MULLINAX: How deep was it?
MACK: It wasn't deep. It was about waist high when you
got in there.
MULLINAX: So they would immerse you in there?
MACK: Yeah. Um-hm. Um-hm. And so that's the way we went
and we--back there in those days, the girls--mamma would talk to us
had--she just went to the second grade because they had to really
work. And so she couldn't even read or couldn't hardly write her
name. And so she would tell us girls that she wanted us
to go farther than she did and learn because they didn't have
a chance to learn. They didn't live close to a school. When
you migrate out and everything you don't live close to a school.
You ----------(??) but you would not dare to go to that school.
So they just worked. And she told us to be the best
of whatever we was going to be. Whatever we was going to
be, be the very best. There's nobody else can do that job
00:21:00better than you can. And she would always tell us a story.
She said, "One time there was a train and that train was,
was loaded heavy with supplies." And she said, "And that train thought
well he never was going to make it there. He was just
chugging along and chugging along and he had to go up the
hill." And she said, "When he got so far up the hill
he said, 'I can't make it. I can't make it'" And said
the engine said, "Yes, you can. Yes, you can." And said, "The
train just keep a chugging along, chugging along, chugging along." Said, "When
he got to the top of the hill and everything was so
hard getting to the top of the hill, when he got to
the top of the hill coming down was easier." She said, "Now,
I know I can make. I know I can make it." Said,
"You're going to have rough--in your life--" she called it roughness. "In
your life." But she said, "You continue on. Don't give up because
00:22:00you reach a point in your life that you'll say, I'm
glad. I look back and say I made it. I didn't give
up.'" And we always had to help the elderly in our
community. Help the elderly in our community and we had to get
the wood and coal in and they got food off of relief.
At that time it was relief, it wasn't welfare. It was called
relief and it wasn't--young people wasn't on welfare. They worked in the
fields.
MULLINAX: What time are you talking about?
MACK: This was right there when I was, oh, back there--I
was born in 1937. This was back there in 19--, oh, 1946,
'46, '47 and '48. And I can't remember none of the young
people on welfare. They worked. They took the kids to the fields
and they worked. And you had the elderly people on relief and
they would get raisins and meal and flour and stuff and rice.
00:23:00And older people, they couldn't use all of it, so they would
give it to us. And, oh, man raisins, we thought we had
something when we had raisins you know. And we'd bring the stuff
back home and we'd make up cornbread and cook it outside on
two blocks. Make a fire and put that black skillet out there
and cooked fried cornbread and it was the best. With syrup on
top of it, oh, it was so good. It was really good.
And so at that time people helped one another. You know, we
always had to look out for one another. That's the reason I
do what I do now. You see where I'm living now, of
course, some of thems dead. She don't know it though. She has
Alzheimer's. Man she has Alzheimer's and she has had a heart attack
and stroke and can't walk. And her son lives in San Antonio,
Texas and she was down in ----------(??) and she would pour cereal
out in a bowl when she quite walking. Roaches everywhere in her
00:24:00apartment and the neighbors there never did go over there and look
after her or nothing. Somebody told me about her. And I went
over and I called him. So he came home. I said, "You've
got a problem here your mother," he came home and said, "Oh,
my God." So I got a lady to take care of her
and clean up the place. And she wanted to come home with
me. She just got attached to me. I just had her for
about ten years.
MULLINAX: You've had for ten years?
MACK: Yeah. She don't there's nobody but Mattie Mack and so he
died. And he came home and he had AIDS. He had two
beautiful daughters. They thirty and one of them thirty-one. And one of
them just had a baby.
MULLINAX: That was her on the phone?
MACK: No, that was the girl's mother. She just works for
me. The girl are about six or seven years old, but he
was a nice guy. He had--he had personality and charm and he
was a good looking man. Oh, he was good. And but it
was just one of those things. AIDS just took him on. So
he said, "I'm not worried because I know Mattie will tend to
00:25:00my mother." He told the girls, "Don't worry. Make sure that Mattie
has got everything to take care of mother." And that's what I
do. I look after--I go around and look after--look after people. Look
after the elderly. I take care of her. I guess around about
fifteen elderly people until they were dead.
MULLINAX: And you said you had foster children too?
MACK: I, I raised thirty-five foster--thirty-seven foster children. And we always
got the worst ones. The other people had trouble placing in the
homes. They all--none of them stayed, you know. Well, they came here
and I found out that--that the children was lacking a whole lot.
And I would tell them, I said, "We going out here and
we are going to feed the hogs. We are going to feed
the cows and calves and everything." And they would take ears of
corn and hit the pig. And they would just--to hear them holler
and everything. Taking their frustration--they would be full of frustration. Just, just
full of frustration. I said, "You don't take it out on the
pig. The pigs ain't done nothing to you." And everything. And then
00:26:00they couldn't take it out on the hogs then they would take
it out on the dogs. And we--I've always--dogs is my heart.
MULLINAX: Yeah. I saw your dogs out there.
MACK: I have eight. I have eight.
MULLINAX: Eight.
MACK: And so they would take it out on the dogs
and I said now listen, I told one boy--oh, let me tell
you something. This dog came up here. He had a broken leg.
He had been beaten and ran over. I said, "He's in the
same shape you are." And I said, "We, we took him and
nursed him back to health." And I said, "He's a good dog."
And I said, "You," he said, the dogs was whining at him.
I said, "You understand what you went through, William." I said, "Why
do you want to hurt him?" He said, "I don't mean to
hurt you Mr. Dog." Big old grown kids, you know. They don't,
they don't know. To me and the kids that I have raised
here is in--is in the Navy. Some in the Air Force and
in the Army. And some of them had went to college or
had a chance. And if they didn't make it, it was their
fault. And I found out the--the farm life is better for young
00:27:00people than the city, because your farm life is a--when you are
taking care of animals, you know, you show that compassion. And, you
know, you feel for that animal. You know, they having their babies.
I make them--"Come on out. Look, they're going to have the baby."
"Oh, they going to have a baby." And let them see and
everything. "Oh, man." And the little baby get up and get to
rumbling around and bouncing around and everything. They just think it is
wonderful and they just feed them, over feed them, and everything. But
kids find that animals had--plays a big role in a--in a child's
life as they are growing up on the farm. And we have
so many farms is going out. They are not bad farmers. It's
because we did not have rain when we needed it and we
00:28:00have--people have to depend on the Lord for all of the weather.
And we don't have no bad farmers but it's just--we just didn't
get the rain when we needed it for our crops. And so
in, in--not only crops but our pastures. So the pastures got short
and we didn't have much hay. So the farmers had to sell
out a lot of their--their cattle, because they realized they wasn't going
to have feed for the fall and the winter. So in the
meantime they had all of this machinery and stuff and, and so
they couldn't pay it. And we have--we are in trouble. The farmers
are in trouble.
MULLINAX: Are you talking about around here recently in the past--
MACK: Yes.
MULLINAX: --few years.
MACK: We go to auctions farmers that are going out of business.
And we--they can't handle it any more. They are so in debt.
And back there, oh, five or six years ago, see the farmers
could go to the--the farmers could go to the feed store and
00:29:00credit fertilize and chemicals and stuff like that and pay at the
end of the year. And so in--they couldn't pay. They couldn't pay,
because they didn't do anything that year if they had a bad
crop. And you cannot raise a calf born in January and sell
him in December. He don't weigh that much. You know, you need
at least two years. So the farmers got--they all got in--they all
got in a bad situation. But it--it's a--I' wondering. Kids nowadays are
so lazy. You got young men on food stamps and on welfare.
Who's going to be farming when we all gone? Nobody's not going
to farm. The young people nowadays--this generation is not going to--because my
kids don't want to farm. It's not--there's nothing in it.
MULLINAX: Now how many kids do you have again?
00:30:00
MACK: I raised four children, my own. I have three sons
and one daughter.
MULLINAX: And what's going to happen to your farm when, when
you go?
MACK: This is, this is what we've been talking about. We--it's--they
are not going to come and farm it because it's not that,
you know, it's going to be--I can see ourselves people in the
next generation. I guess I won't be here to live it. But
it--we are going to--we are going to see children on the streets
like we do in Africa or India. Sitting on the streets, pot
bellied, hungry, no food. People don't want to farm because they are
nothing in it. If the farmers could make a good living just
a fair living, just get by and that would entice our young
people to stay on the farm.
MULLINAX: Well, what makes it so hard to farm? I mean
is it just the weather? Are there other things?
MACK: Yes. We can't even--we can't even get a--young people like
00:31:00going in now and you got to have collateral. You've got to
have--young people can't even go to the bank and borrow money to
go into farming. You've got to have so much. The bank has
got to know, "Well, where is my money going to come from?"
And--and number two is that everything is so high. If we--if we
could get a guarantee of what we are going to get for
cattle or guarantee what we are going to get for hogs and
our tobacco and everything, that would put the young people back on
the farm they could make a decent living with the families. But
every day--you can't.
MULLINAX: What kind of guarantee are you talking about?
MACK: Like guarantee tobacco two dollars a pound.
MULLINAX: By the government or?
MACK: By ever who--yeah. Yeah. The government. He's the head of
the things. Government, two dollars a pound tobacco and it stays there.
Everybody gets that. Now I was at the tobacco house yesterday and,
and tobacco--they had support price way down and tobacco came up and
00:32:00you got--we got--some of them got--we got like seventy, a dollar seventy-one,
a dollar seventy-eight and eighty-four and eighty-four and eighty-one and everything. That
tobacco if it's top eighty-four, good tobacco. Every bit of it ought
to brought eighty-four. I would say two dollars a pound, because you
got your--your labor you got in it. All your fuel, your chemicals,
your fertilize and, and, and, and your labor, like labor. You not
making--he's not--he's not coming out clear at all in nothing. He's not
coming out. If my husband didn't have a job at Olin Mathieson
Chemical Plant, we couldn't make it. And we take what he makes
at the chemical plant and put it back into the farm and
this is--see, you got old cows out there that need to be
sold and buy new ones and everything. That's got to come up
00:33:00and everything again. And, and it's just--you just--it's a, it's a hardship
in farming. And it's hard when you can't make those payments and
every farmer wants to be able to make the payments that they
have made, you know, trying to farm. And when you come to
a close you can't then, you know, that farmer feels bad. I
know they do. And they don't have other jobs a working either.
He's totally trying to do on the farm and it's not paying
off. And that's the reason we have so many farms going out--farmers
going out of business.
MULLINAX: Um-hm.
MACK: Auctioning things off and everything. Trying to pay off what
they have already got.
MULLINAX: So a lot of farmers work off the farm too
or?
MACK: Yeah. Yes.
MULLINAX: Around here?
MACK: Um-hm.
MULLINAX: What do they usually do? What kind of work do?
MACK: Well, they, they work at chemical plants. They work at
Rubber Tire Company Plant in--in E-town. They work anywhere they can--wherever they
00:34:00can work.
MULLINAX: Do the women usually work too?
MACK: Sometimes, sometimes. Teachers and cooks, whatever they can do. Just
whatever.
MULLINAX: How long has your husband worked at this plant?
MACK: He's going to be retiring there in two years.
MULLINAX: Um-hm. Has he worked there a long time?
MACK: Yeah. He's, he's been there, he's been there, oh, about
twenty-eight years.
MULLINAX: Hmm. Full-time work?
MACK: Yeah. Full-time work.
MULLINAX: And then--then the two of you run the farm?
MACK: Yeah. I mostly do most of it myself because he's
working eight to eight. He works eight to eight. So I get
a crew of men and everything and young men--I always get young
men, because--in school.
MULLINAX: In high school.
MACK: Yeah. They know how to work. You know, show them
how to chop tobacco. Haul that tobacco out and chop that tobacco
00:35:00and I'll get the men to cut it.
MULLINAX: How many laborers do you hire?
MACK: Well, we put out--now this year, we cut down on
tobacco this year. And this year we hired--we had, oh, about seven
or eight people cutting tobacco and housing it. And we usually young
people in the summer time and everything to help pick up the
hay and stuff like that. We put up some big bales in
round bales. And then we put up some square bales, those small
bales. We use the young people because they can work and save
the money and go get their school clothes, be independent. You know.
We try to teach them that and everything. So I had a
young man came to us in August and everything that comes up
here every year and works. Saves his money and a big family
00:36:00of them and that's her auntie, I mean, Tonya's auntie over in
Irvington. He came and everything, you know, I'm kind of strict. You
know, I've got rules and regulation downstairs for the kids to abide
by. If you break the rule, then you got to pay. Yeah.
I sit down and make sure they know it. Make sure they
know you. And so anyway he came in August and he wanted
to stay and go to Meade County High School. And I said,
"Breckinridge County. Well, could you do," "Yes, Ma'am, but I'd like stay
here. I just want to chance." He said, "My brother is ----------(??)
and my sister is pregnant. Mom don't care." He said, "I just,
I just want to chance." I said, "You know what you're saying."
He said, "Yes Ma'am." I said, "Now, I, I don't put up
with no ----------(??) around my ----------(??)." I said, "Well, if you can
abide by the rules," I said, "You welcome." I said, "I'll give
you a chance if you want it." Took him down to the
school and Mr. Wilson talked to him and said, "Do you know
00:37:00what you getting into young man?" See, everybody knows me. And he
said, "Yes, yes, yes. Sir. Yes, sir. I'm not going to give
you no trouble." He said, "Now, Miss Mack you going to have
to go to court and get legal guardian of him and everything."
I said, "I'll do that. If he wants a chance I'm going
to give it to him." So I decided I'd give it to
him and everything. Next two weeks came in. Couple of weeks rolled
around and everything and he's in school. About four weeks and everything
I got a letter from the school Miss Mack Darryl has been
late for class and he's been in detention hall and everything. I
thought, Darryl. So I always give them a chance, you know, don't--he
came in that afternoon I said, "Darryl." "Yes, Ma'am." He didn't know
the school was going to write nothing. You know, he had been
getting by. And I said, "Come here and sit down." And I
really got in this young man's face. And so I hadn't had
no more trouble. And so he told some of them he said,
"If I ever live, I will never be late for class no
more." He said, "Have you all ever had Miss Mack up on
you all because she worse than a sergeant." (laughs) And he called
00:38:00me sergeant, Big Mack. Everybody around here calls me Big Mack. (laughs)
But the kids nowadays are looking for discipline. Everything--I got other kids
wanting to come. My husband said, "No. We got to stop. We
going to retire." I told, "Jack. I'm not going to put your--you
on, on the foster care." I said, "You are going to work.
You're an able-bodied boy. And you are going to work and you
are going to get what you want." And he was in that
low media.
MULLINAX: In what?
MACK: In that low media grade, low media. And I said,
"You are a healthy boy. I don't see why you can't be
in the regular classes." You, you, you get that study. I get
him up at five o'clock and you got a pencil--you get up
and you study. And now he's out--he's been out here for two
weeks when he started in August. He's in regular classes.
MULLINAX: Well, great.
MACK: Report cards came in and the lowest grade he had
was a C. He's smart and he played basketball. Tall young man.
00:39:00And so I said, "Set your mind on what you want to
be and then do it. Don't ever say you can't. Set your
mind on it and you can do it." And these girls will
call Miss Mack--"Mamma won't say nothing about it. Can we come up
there and stay, please?" I say, "No. Can't do it." So I
think--it's the trend of life now is--parents have stopped disciplining their children.
And they are of--of our government. It don't belong in the hands
of the government. It belongs in the homes of the parents. Now,
I'm against child abuse, don't get me wrong, I'm against that, but
a good spanking now and then don't hurt a child at all.
Let him know who rules and let him know that he's got
responsibilities and you are to respect your elders, yes, Ma'am, no, Ma'am.
He walks here and he says, "Yeah." No. I say. Unh-uh. You
00:40:00go down. You say yes, Ma'am. No, Ma'am. What about the coach?
I said, yes, sir to the coaches and no, sir to the
principals. You just start them off like that. That's been my trend.
I don't have no problems and the coach said--told me down there.
He said, "Miss Mack, he is the nicest, mannerable, got the good
attitude." He said, "Oh I could make that goal. I got to
do good, because Miss Mack is looking for me to do good
and everything, you know." And that's the way I am--that's the way
I am. I think, you know, sometimes you can be to firm
and then again you, you not firm enough. So you've got to
know where to draw the line. I always say my kids use--be
involved in church summer school and church and then your community. You
involved there. Then, you know, he has--who has time for peer pressure.
We don't have peer pressure. I don't want to never hear that
00:41:00word peer pressure. You know, kids that have peer pressure don't have
nothing to do.
MULLINAX: Did you have that growing up when you were a--
MACK: No. No.
MULLINAX: --kid?
MACK: I never heard of peer pressure and my kids that
came up they don't have--I never knowed they had peer pressure because
they always had something to do. And when you put a kid
out here on the farm splitting wood, carrying wood, feeding up, carrying
slop and--and everything. And when evening comes he takes a bath and
eats a good supper and that's about it.
MULLINAX: ----------(??).
MACK: He's tired. He's ready to--(laughs)--go to bed. So it's not
peer pressure. Make money and looking forward to going to school and
coming home and doing your chores. It's also--if you go to school
and you play ball you still got chores to do when you
come home. You don't--
MULLINAX: You--when you were a kid did you have--when you went
to school, you said that you went to Tuskegee.
MACK: Yeah.
MULLINAX: How did you get there? What was the process--
MACK: Well, my auntie--
MULLINAX: --of you getting there.
MACK: --my auntie she finished from Tuskegee and I always wanted
to go to school somewhere. And she told mamma that the only
00:42:00school I know is Tuskegee, Alabama and that's all black, predominantly black.
So she would have a chance there. But at the time Martin
Luther King was trying to get these schools in the South to
open up to blacks and I didn't have--I didn't want to part
of that problem, because I had just came out of a problem.
MULLINAX: And was that problem--
MACK: I mean the Klu Klux Klan and all of that
stuff. And Governor Wallace in Alabama was the governor, little short man.
I will never forget him. I went off to school and I
was working my way.
MULLINAX: What did you do?
MACK: I took care of babies at the women's--bring into the
world. And see mamma always told us the doctor always brought the
baby in a little black bag. And we never knew where babies
came from, never. And I went off to school down there in,
00:43:00in Alabama. And my job was, was to clean the baby up.
They showed me how to do a doll. And they said, "When
the doctor deliver the baby this is what you do." You know,
they said, "You'll have help and everything and a bunch of us
was working." And so--and we stayed in that room till this woman.
A great big fat, black woman. Oh, she weighed about three or
four hundred pounds and she was on this table and--
MULLINAX: And she was a pregnant woman?
MACK: Yeah. And she, she was getting ready to deliver which
I did not know. And so they put her in the stirrups
and everything and a doctor, named Doctor Mitchell, he's dead and gone.
Great big dark guy--and he always called me Peaches and they was
good to me down there. And so he said, "She's getting ready
to have that baby." I said, "Well, Doctor you have that baby
till she can rest." He said, "I can't do it till, till
that time. And everything." And so I--we stood around and everything and
00:44:00little innocent dumb me stood around there. And so he put his
gloves on and everything and everything she was hollering. And out came
this great big huge baby weighed almost fifteen pounds.
MULLINAX: Oh, my.
MACK: And everything here I was in there--and they all let
on and everything. I fainted. And I fainted and when I knew
anything. And they said, "Peaches you all right." And I was in
the nurses lounge, "Are you all right Peaches." And I said, "That
baby," they said, "Yeah." Said, "That's the way they are born. That's
the way you came here." I said, "I came out of that
little bitty hole?" They said, "Yeah." And I said, I said, "Mamma
always said that the doctor brought the baby in a little black
bag." And she said, "Honey that--"
[Pause in recording.]
MULLINAX: Okay. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Okay.
MACK: Her name was Miss Carter and she was a tall
nurse and she gave me all her uniforms and they was too
00:45:00long for me. So I had another nurse, a friend of mine,
and she took them home and cut them off and got them
my size and everything. So I had my uniforms and she gave
me a pair of shoes and everything when I got off of
work--come from school. You know, I could dress up and everything. We
had to wear white anyway. And so after that--I was there a
year and mamma had a heart attack.
MULLINAX: Oh, my.
MACK: And I went home and I stayed there a while.
And after she got better I went back to school and I
was there a half a year and she--it got worse. She had
another one. So I went home and never went back.
MULLINAX: Oh, so you didn't finish your--
MACK: No, oh, no, no, no. No, I was--no. In the
meantime I was there, Christmas time came around and all the kids
00:46:00met at the bus station or bus stop, because there was just
a small little old building that you got your ticket. You couldn't
go in because it was small and we got it through the
window and everything. So I couldn't go home that day that I
had planned. I got my suitcases and so many ----------(??). It was
about three ----------(??). And we wasn't allowed to sit up front. Those--those
front seats it was like six all the way up was--was occupied
by whites. You didn't sit in those seats. And that's what Governor
Wallace was there to make sure that those seats were vacant. And
so I had to go back to the dorm and stay until
the next day and I cried all that night. And the police
was on top of the workers and the ----------(??) and the dogs
and everything. And Martin Luther King called us all together when we
00:47:00came back for the session and told us non-violence, non-violence. I had
all of that together, but my house burned down. So we had
to build this one in 1970. We had an old Columbian home.
I had all that in boxes. All very cherishable. I was--but anyway
he said non-violence and you're going to have people that, you know,
will talk and make you get into a fight but don't do
it.
MULLINAX: How old were you then? You were about eighteen?
MACK: Oh, eighteen, nineteen.
MULLINAX: And you saw him speak?
MACK: Oh, yes. Um-hm. And he came to Tuskegee and spoke
and everything, a couple of times. And so he was real known,
you know, by ----------(??).
MULLINAX: When did you start to get into farming then in
terms of--after you were--
00:48:00
MACK: Well, after we--after I met my husband we was--we dated
in--
MULLINAX: When was that?
MACK: Oh, this was--when I was about nineteen--
MULLINAX: Um-hm.
MACK: --you know before I went home. We went up on--up
on the block to get some black eyed peas. I wanted some
black eyed peas, me and a nurse. And so--so he asked did
I want to go to a fraternity and sorority dance? And I
said, "What." And so I said, "Well," I said, "I don't have
anything to wear." And I didn't. And the nurse said, "Well, get
Peaches ready. She'll be ready. She hadn't been no where since she's
been here." And I hadn't. So we, we never seen and everything.
And so I--she came over to the dorm--over to the place where
I was. And she took a dress that I had and she
tore the sleeves out of it and--and patched it up and put
a big red loop through it and everything and dyed it gray.
00:49:00And--and dyed my shoes and everything. And so they got through with
me and had my hair fixed up and everything. And when they
got through with me I looked better than all the rest of
them that was there. And I said, "Well, wow." You know, and
so that's how I met him. So he went off in the
Army so he asked me to--to wait for him and I thought
well--so I did. And so we got married in 1958, April 1958.
And so I never did, I never did go back. I never
did go back and when he got in the Army he came
up here.
MULLINAX: He was from here?
MACK: Yeah. He was--
MULLINAX: Right. You told--
MACK: --Shelbyville.
MULLINAX: --me he was from Shelbyville.
MACK: Um-hm. And so I started taking the little money that
I had and working at the Trimble Hospital and I was--I had
enough to have a License Practical Nurse. I was--my License Practical Nurse
at Trimble Hospital. I worked in the emergency room. Got to know
00:50:00all the doctors. And so--so he--he was up there. We lived at
522 East Chestnut. And people fought and the kids treated the parents
rough. And I thought, "Wow, you know, what in the world?" And
kept me scared up and I would come home at night and
they put play that loud music all day and all night. And
this was right in town. And--and you, you know, I was just
scared. I was ----------(??), at that time, he was a waiter at
the Brown Suburban. At that time it was the Brown Suburban. And
he waited tables, see, he come home late at night and I
would work double shifts to have extra money--
MULLINAX: Yeah.
MACK: --at Eastern Hospital. And so--so much ----------(??) and I
was scared to death. So I said, "I want to leave here
and I want to live on the farm." If we were going
00:51:00to have children and we were married six years before we had
children. I said, "I want to live on a farm, you know,
bring them up right on the farm." These kids here are terrible.
They don't respect nobody or nothing. So that's what we did. Well,
we got a realtor and Jarboe, was her name. She's dead and
gone now, but she took us to a couple of places in
Louisville and I--and the white man came out and said, "Hey, we
don't sell to niggers. We don't sell to niggers." So we left
there and we went to another place. Well, "We don't sell to
niggers." So I said, "I'm tired of all of that." I said,
"Is it any place that will sell to us? We just want
a little old small farm." She said, "Well, there's a black owned
farm in Brandenburg." And she said, "They--they are the Bells." Said, "They
don't have any children or anything." Said, "The house is well kept
and everything." We said, "Well, let's go down there." I said, "I
00:52:00don't care where it is." So she brought us off down here
and so this--this is where--he had--he was selling out as a walk
out. So that included a--the cows, machinery and everything a farmer wanted
to get started he had it. It was a complete walk out.
MULLINAX: He bought the entire--
MACK: Yeah. We bought the--um-hm. It was a walk out. And
so he was a, was a retired insurance fella and this farm
was Miss Bell's. It was handed down through her through the Yates's
and I got all of those papers. And it was--was her people's
farm. And so her and another man named Cotton, he's dead and
gone, they farmed the farm while he--he went out and did insurance
work. He would go from state to state and stuff like that,
you know, all over the--and so he, he--she farmed it. She was
a farmer and we've got a walk out. And they were tickled
00:53:00to death because we were black, because the man that had it
way back there he was a white fellow. And he told the
Yate's he said, "Don't ever sell this out of a black." Said,
"I'm going to leave it in the black and I want to
blacks to own it forever." So this is what had been happening
down through the years.
MULLINAX: Um-hm.
MACK: And so it was left to her daddy and then
her daddy--her brother--well her grand--great grand all the way up to her
and she was the heir that--
MULLINAX: So they willed it down to her?
MACK: Um-hm. Um-hm. It came on down to her. She was
the only one in that time--in the time. And all of them
died out. And so we had it and they was tickled to
death we had it. So when they--they moved to Louisville and we
always kept in touch and everything. And they got--she went blind. She
had glaucoma and she went blind. And he was old and couldn't
take care of her. And he called me. He asked me could
I take care of them, you know, till the Lord called them.
00:54:00I said, "Well, I got foster children down there and everything. As
a matter of fact, I can't." So he said, "Well, we will
get a trailer. We would get a trailer. Would you look for
us a trailer?" I said, "Well, all right then." Okay. I came
back home and looked for a trailer. Found one pretty cheap. And
they moved down here and I took care of them to death.
MULLINAX: You're incredible.
MACK: I know. I know truly incredible. (laughs) I took care
of them and looked after them till death and they was real
sweet. And they was nice to us and when our house burned
down and everything then we, we didn't know what we was going
to do because owed them, you know, we owed them and everything.
And we didn't know what we was going to do and he
said, "Don't you worry about nothing." He said, "You get you a
house and put it up so you can get these kids in
there." And a white neighbor over there came and got my three
children and kept them for months and months until we could get--we
00:55:00had a, we had a trailer that we lived in and had
another white friend up here that took the furniture that we saved
and kept it in their basement until we could build and put
back. And it's the furniture in there and they kept it and
everything. And we have some wonderful neighbors here. They are just precious.
MULLINAX: How did your house burn?
MACK: Faulty wiring. It was an older house, old colonial home.
MULLINAX: Oh.
MACK: And I was at church with the children and my
husband was in the woods cutting wood. And it was a light
on the front porch, you know, just jingle all the time. You
know, the wind blow it. And it caused, you know--the wire popped
and where that wire went that's where it was damaged.
MULLINAX: What was the farm like when you bought it? How
many acres did it have?
MACK: They had a hundred acres.
MULLINAX: Um-hm.
MACK: And some of the, the fences are still up. Some
of the old fences are still up. It was kept well. And
00:56:00Miss Bell she built the old chicken house down here, her and
another fellow. And she was very active in building stuff and everything.
MULLINAX: How many buildings do you have here?
MACK: Well, we have, oh, one, two, three, four, five, about
six building outside.
MULLINAX: Barns and?
MACK: Barns. Um-hm. Chicken barn and tool shed and, oh, a
couple of tool sheds. And then we have a barn--the barn where
we house tobacco and when the tobacco is all gone we put
our machinery in the--in the barn and let the cows in one
barn, you know, when it's snowing and stuff like that.
MULLINAX: What did you raise when you first came here?
MACK: Well, when we first came here--they already had cows. They
had the bull and the cows and several calves. And so we,
we got us a, a bull pig and about two or three
sows and started raising pigs. And we raised tobacco and I didn't
00:57:00know anything about tobacco until we came here because I thought tobacco
was collard greens. (laughs)
MULLINAX: How did you learn about it?
MACK: Well, I was on a train. I was going from
Louisville to--I was going from Atlanta to Louisville. And I saw it
and I said, "Woo we, them sure are big collard greens." Said,
"That's not collard greens that's tobacco." Tobacco? So when I got to
Shelbyville up there where my mother-in-law and them lived at up there
they took me out in the fields and said, "This is tobacco."
I said, "Look at the big worm on that. I have never
seen such big worms." And they said, "Well, this--we have to pull
them off." Pull them off and everything. And at that time I
guess they didn't have chemicals that would keep them off. So they
would pull them off at that time. But--
MULLINAX: And then you started tobacco here? You started--
MACK: They, they didn't raise tobacco here. They had somebody--they had
00:58:00JJ Barber and them to raise their tobacco on half.
MULLINAX: Who's is that?
MACK: That's neighbors over there. They had them to raise it
on half.
MULLINAX: What do you mean on half?
MACK: Well, they would--they would raise the tobacco. They--only thing they
had to do was pay--if the fertilize cost a thousand dollars they
had to pay five hundred dollars. They had to pay so much
on the labor and stuff like that, you know, and then when
they sold it, well they just get half of what it, what
it brought.
MULLINAX: So you rented it out?
MACK: Um-hm. They did.
MULLINAX: Yeah.
MACK: Yeah. But when we came here, we raised it and
got somebody here to teach me how to strip it.
MULLINAX: Um-hm.
MACK: And showed me how to strip it. And the people
that taught me is dead and gone. His name--one of them was
Ducky Lucky, Mr. Murray and Bull Dog. Bull Dog is still living.
MULLINAX: Um-hm. Who--
MACK: Old fellow named Bull Dog.
MULLINAX: --who were these people?
MACK: They were people who was all black farmers, old farmers,
that didn't farm anymore. Only thing they did was strip tobacco.
00:59:00
MULLINAX: Did, did you ever learn anything from extension agents or
anybody like that?
MACK: At the time I didn't know--the extension agent existed at
the time. I did not know and I--and I wasn't informed on
the extension agent and everything. And then my neighbor over here, Mr.
Richy, he was on the, on the county AFCS Office Board. And
so he--he's the one that first addressed me to, to the agency.
And then I got kind of--
MULLINAX: So he's the white farmer next door?
MACK: Yes. Um-hm. And so I got out in, in what's
available and what they could do to help the farmer.
MULLINAX: What kind of things did they teach you then? What
did--what did you learn from--
MACK: Well, I learned--
MULLINAX: --the extension agent?
MACK: --that if you're going to farm, you know, you farm.
01:00:00You have to report how much corn you raise and how much
hay and everything. And if you're not going to raise anything on
your farm it can go into soil bank. It was called soil
bank at that time. Where the government will send you a check
for not raising anything. And then they will allow you once a
year somewhere in turning time. You cut your hay. You could cut
the hay off of it, but you couldn't cut the hay unless
they told you when to cut it. And to, you know, to
get the check. And so well we thought about that we said,
"No." We didn't want, we didn't want to tie the farm up
like that, because we got cows, you know, run into stuff like
that.
MULLINAX: Um-hm.
MACK: As a matter of fact, so we never did put
it in that. And we--you had to report everything that you did,
you know, on the farm and everything like that.
MULLINAX: Did you learn any other sorts of things from extension
01:01:00agents? Were they very helpful with other, other sorts of information?
MACK: Yeah. They do--they would send out information through the mail
and--and they--they talk about, oh, the shortage of the crops and everything
and how, you know, if--if it was short enough you would--they would--you
would be able to get a little help from the government, you
know, and everything. But they were so, so strict an area a
lot of people didn't fool with it, you know. If it was
short, they just got short. They didn't because they didn't do that
much no way. Wasn't going to do that much.
MULLINAX: Um-hm. One thing you said--a few minutes ago you were
that back when you first started they didn't use chemicals on tobacco?
You were saying that it had these big worms that they--
MACK: Yeah.
MULLINAX: --picked off.
MACK: They had to pick the worms off. They didn't--they, you
know, just like Bill's parents. They raised tobacco and they didn't have
01:02:00to put chemicals on it. They just picked those big old worms
off that ate the leaves you know and topped it and everything
and that was it.
MULLINAX: When, when did you learn about chemicals? When did you
start using them?
MACK: Well, when we would go to meetings and, and it
was too time consuming for the farmer to do all of that.
Going through every leaf and trying to look for the worms and
everything. So they put out the chemical DDT at that time, I
think it was and pesticides and things. And so they used that
and it kept the worms and the bugs and things off of
it. And so we, we--that's what we--that's what we started doing.
MULLINAX: What kind of meetings did you go to where you
learned about this?
MACK: Oh, we went to--it was a farm meeting maybe ----------(??)
the--that sold chemicals. He would go to some place and learn about
01:03:00this. Then he would come back and call a meeting.
MULLINAX: Um-hm. Um-hm.
MACK: And they'd send out the letters saying about different things
and so everybody was interested, you know, of course. They would go
to the meeting.
MULLINAX: Was he a local person--
MACK: Yeah.
MULLINAX: --that would go?
MACK: Right. Um-hm. Community--
MULLINAX: Would he be a--
MACK: Why he'd be a--
MULLINAX: --farmer too?
MACK: Oh, yes. Definitely so. Definitely so.
MULLINAX: How--how was he picked as the one to go?
MACK: I don't whether he was picked or not. He just
went. He--he sold the chemicals and, you know, he did it. He
would go and find out what was available for the farmers and
you get that. That's going to help you.
MULLINAX: Right. Right. So he was a business person and--
MACK: Right.
MULLINAX: --a farmer.
MACK: Yeah. Um-hm. Um-hm.
MULLINAX: Did he ever talk about the negative aspects of chemicals?
MACK: Yeah. You know, you had to do it right or
it would injure you. You know, you would--you would die from it
and everything. You know, you had to be careful. You just couldn't
play around with it, anything like that. And now they are abandoned
01:04:00so much of it but so much they--they haven't. You know, that
you use it the one that we like there are advantages. And--and
so it's been--the chemical they have out now is, I think, it's
pretty safe, you know. I don't smoke and everything or anything like
that. But I wouldn't smoke you know putting all that chemicals on
it. And a lot of times when you stripping it, you know,
all this stuff get on your hands. That gum stuff, black stuff,
rough stuff and everything that I figure it would be--taking into their
lungs. And I think that's what causes lung cancer and everything, but
I don't know what the farmer would do without the--our tobacco program,
you know.
MULLINAX: Without the tobacco program?
MACK: Um-hm. I don't know what we would do.
MULLINAX: What are you referring to there? The tobacco program?
MACK: Well, it's--it's the only crop, really cash crop, that the
01:05:00farmer can look forward to during the end of the year. That's
the crop doing the end of the year, you know. And that's
an every year thing if you got good weather and it's almost
a guaranteed thing if you got good weather. And a lot of
farmers that over a lot they--they have a ----------(??) machine that checks
at the tobacco place. They have ----------(??) machine that you know you
can't--
MULLINAX: You can't touch it.
MACK: No. And I said too, you know, I looked at
a farmer the other day out there and he was talking about
it. He didn't like it at all. He was saying really profane
language and everything, but you know it's one of those things. Other
people want their money too you know. So I don't know what,
what's going to happen to them.
MULLINAX: Okay. What do you, what do you think are the
advantages of sticking into farming these days. You talk about it being
01:06:00so rough?
MACK: It's--I don't see--(clears throat)--if things don't get better for the
farmer we not going to have many around. The farmer has to
make a living off the farm and that's what they're not doing.
That's what they're not doing. You got to make a living off
of the farm. And so our children can come back and take
over the farm and make a just a decent living being able
to pay their bills. And I am so tired of people, of
some of the politicians, are saying, "Well, the farmer got himself into
it. Let him get himself out." Well, they didn't because the farmers--you
don't have no bad farmers. You have all good farmers, but you
have--people depend on the Lord upstairs for our weather to raise our
crops.
MULLINAX: Why do you think they are blaming the farmers so
much?
MACK: They don't know anything about farmers. They don't know about
01:07:00farming. All they know to do is go and pick it up
at the store and to him that's it. They don't know anything
about how--how hard it is to milk a cow and everything. My
husband and I we ran a dairy for all these years. We--we
milked a hundred and thirty cows. We have a new Surge milkers
and it's a lot of work. You--you got to clean those cows
up. Shave their shanks, tails, for inspection. Number A, A inspected and
clean up all that and everything. So the farmers not to get
nothing for their milk. The politician will never know until they have
had some humans in farming. There's a lot of work in farming
and the farmers love what they do. They love what they do.
No farmer would like to get on welfare, food stamps or nothing
like that, because they like to work and earn that. But if
it's not coming to that what are we going to do. And
01:08:00so this is what I said here you know something it. Here
we know something about it and we never, never get by. They'll
never know.
MULLINAX: Do local politicians seem to know around here what's going
on?
MACK: Yeah. We've got politicians that own farms now like in--in
Hardinsburg. We have--have, hmm, Donna Gatlin. That's a representative up there at
Frankfort and we have Joe, Joe Wright. And they are all farmers
in Breckinridge County. And they are going to ask us to help
the farmers in moving--moving it. We went to them a couple of
years ago with a bill, a ----------(??) farm bill and everything.
01:09:00And it's been in--been there at the--at Lisa Payne's office and everything.
And we've had meetings with those--with those--with the group up there. Saying
we've only five hundred thousand dollars, fifty thousand dollars, five hundred thousand
dollars. And they--they haven't released that to the farmers as yet. And
that's been two years ago. And so we--we try to make a
leadway. We was up in Frankfort two months ago and with some
instructions and details and things. And so they had promised us that
they would look into it and make sure the farmers get this
money by the time they farm again next year.
01:10:00
MULLINAX: Who's we?
MACK: We is Lisa Payne and the members of the credit
community. Extension worker on the field we used to--let's see,--
MULLINAX: So it's the Community Farm Alliance--
MACK: Yeah. Um-hm.
MULLINAX: --is what you're talking about?
MACK: Yeah. Um-hm. It should be five hundred thousand dollars billable
through HD ----------(??) Farm Bill.
MULLINAX: Um-hm.
MACK: And, and here's all the particulars down here.
MULLINAX: Oh, okay. Okay. Maybe I'll look at that later.
MACK: Yeah. You can have, you can have--
MULLINAX: Thank you.
MACK: --you can have that.
MULLINAX: Oh, okay.
MACK: You can have that.
MULLINAX: Okay. One last question. I guess we've been talking for
quite a while. You probably--you're probably tired of talking.
MACK: No, I love to talk. I love to talk. You
got it on?
MULLINAX: Oh, yeah. It's on.
01:11:00
MACK: Okay.
MULLINAX: I wanted to ask you. You talked about discrimination when
you were a kid and the KKK and I wondered if you,
as a black farmer, experienced--experience any discrimination today? Do you feel in
anyway that--
MACK: No.
MULLINAX: No?
MACK: No. Unh-uh. All the farmers now are in the same
boat and we all have compassion for one another. We know what
he or she is going through because we are farmers and if
we can help the other farmer this is what we do. And
right now the farmers need grants, not loans, grants to help pull
this thing out.
MULLINAX: Um-hm. [telephone rings]
[Pause in recording.]
MULLINAX: Okay. So you--you don't really feel much discrimination as a--
MACK: No. Unh-uh.
MULLINAX: --black farmer?
MACK: Not at all, because we are all in the same
01:12:00boat.
MULLINAX: Um-hm. Um-hm. And you are, you are basically an activist
in the Community Farm Alliance and apparently in the local community and
on a lot of levels. What made you decide to be so
active in--
MACK: Well,--
MULLINAX: --in pulling people together?
MACK: Um-hm. It's a, it's a need, you know. I visit
a farmer that didn't want to talk with me. He was very
depressed. He had lost his wife and things wasn't going for--going good
for him. And I, I left and I went back and I
called him down and we set down and we talked. He was
very depressed, lonely and having trouble on the farm. And so I
said it should be something done. So I got involved in different
01:13:00things. What can we do to help the farmers? I've been to
Washington DC and it's a--a big--I think the government is really pulling
for GATT. You know, a lot of it is GATT this. These
people are--now we banded--chemicals to spray our vegetables and everything and they
come overseas. They use them and then they ship them back over
here for us to eat. I can't understand the government and the
system they use. And the guy that's--whoever is in head of that
over there. And so to me that, you know, I think people
should get involved and support one another. Support, you know, I think
we'd feel better if we could get support from one another and
listen to what we do. That's what, I think, a lot of
people should involved in supporting everything. I'm involved in the football team
01:14:00now and--
MULLINAX: Yeah.
MACK: --and the big support that all of the signs
all in Meade County. Everybody know I done it.
MULLINAX: Um-hm.
MACK: Had something to do with it. And making tapes at
the radio station and they play them every now and then.
MULLINAX: What kind of tapes?
MACK: Supporting the football team--
MULLINAX: Hmm.
MACK: --and everything. We're going to the state, you know,
and that--that's a big thing. And get behind the boys and get
behind our county and our coaches and let's support them. You know,
I told them on the phone what makes an organization great is
people, the support of people. Not the organization but the people. And
when we leave people out then we are not about anything for
people is what makes the world go around.
MULLINAX: Um-hm. What kind of role does the church play around
here? Are you--are you active in the church or anything?
MACK: I'm in--I'm active in a church in Irvington. I go
to Irvington to church. There's not any--it's not any black churches around
01:15:00here in--in the county, I mean where I live. You got to
go around about twelve, thirteen, fourteen miles to get to a black
church. So I go to church in Irvington. I pick up kids
and I take them to Sunday school and church. I have this
old van out there and I pick them up all over Brandenburg
and take them to the church in Irvington. And I've been doing
that now for twenty eight years. And I got a--and I got
a ticket one time. I was in a car, in our car,
and it was an old Buick and there so many kids in
that car that I should have been taken to jail. And so
I worked for a judge. So I got a ticket from this
pol-, this state trooper in Irvington. And I cried all the way
home. I was just so hurt because I never got a ticket
from a police man. And so I took it to work with
me the next morning and told him everything. He said, "Don't worry.
No sweat." You know, I said, "Will I have to go to
01:16:00jail?" "No. You won't. No." So I didn't have to do anything.
So he said, "You going to have to get you a bigger
car, you know." So when we got into foster charity we got
a van. And so I was coming in the van and this
van was full --they sitting in the floor of the van and
everything. And I think it was very important that the children learn
about our Lord Savior Jesus Christ. And to think if they have
faith enough they can move mountains if they have enough faith in
Jesus Christ and what he expects of us. And I have always
told my girls, my foster girls and my daughter and my sons
that I never put no birth control pill in the house. You
know--you know if you got to have birth control pills then you
going to have to move on to another place. You know, people
give the children birth control pill and that's just--it entice them to
01:17:00do whatever they want to do. And I always told my children--my
girls that your body is a--is a temple to Christ. And I
said, "You know, when Christ--when God got ready for Jesus to be
born, he didn't go to the white house and get the president's
daughter. He didn't go to France to get the queen's daughter. He
picked a girl like you and me, but she was pure. Her
body was a living sacrifice for Christ." I said, "You don't do
that. You don't indulge in sex. If the boy--if you don't have
a boy friend say bump you and go on." And I told
my boys, I said, "Don't you go out here and indulge in
sex." I said, "The first condom I see down in this floor
I'm going to make everyone of you all put one on and
let me see how it look on you." Well, by George you
don't see them laying in here. (laughs)
01:18:00
MULLINAX: You've got a way don't you?
MACK: And I got to--and they know I mean it but
I put a roof over them. They, they think I'm you know
they love me. They just hold me and they are always coming
in and with a big thing of pop. And that's my weakness,
you know, I love pop. And I said, "I'm on a diet."
They'll get me diet pop. And they think--all of my foster children
always brought me diet pop and chewing gum and they hugged me
and everything and they loved me. And I thought why in the
world do they love me like that? Well, because discipline is love.
MULLINAX: Well--
MACK: So this is how, you know, how things come about.
MULLINAX: Yeah.
MACK: Love you can't--you can't buy love. I don't care what
you do, you can't buy love. You got to show people. You
01:19:00got--you can't say I love you. I love you. You've got to
show them.
MULLINAX: Yeah. Well--(laughs)--what will do with your farm when you are,
when you are ready to go on?
MACK: Well, we've got wills made. We got a will made
and I was hoping that my baby son, Lorenzo, would take over
farming. And but as it is, he, he don't like study but
he wants to go into technology school. And I said, "If you
don't like to study in high school, how are you going to
make it in technology school." So I don't know what he's going
to do. But I--he, he likes to farm. He gets a commission
off the hogs that we sell. He feeds up and he goes
gets the slop and everything. He gets a commission and he helps
01:20:00with feeding up there and everything, you know. And if we sell
our cows and their calves and everything he gets a commission. So
he has a little bank account and he sees how we lives
and everything. So I thought he would go into the Army or
service of some type but and I said if you don't go
into that just go into the reserves. And work a job and
everything. He worked last summer at the store. Every summer works at
the store and they are crazy about him.
MULLINAX: How old is he?
MACK: Lor-, he's seventeen years old. And, and all of them
are crazy about him. They--all of them want him to work after
school but he has to practice football and everything. And on the
weekends he don't want--he don't care about working on the weekends because
he likes to work and then go downstairs and rest a little
bit, you know. And so he--we was looking for him to take
over the farm and everything is just set right now. See, what
hurts some of our young people is they don't have a start.
01:21:00See, they want to buy ground and buy machinery and buy cows
and things like that. And you ain't got nothing to put up
and, you know. And the ones that has got anything--This is why
I say the government needs to help the farmers so they can
stay on the farm. If--if you don't have your children to --to
take over the farm we are going to have some neighbors children
that want to get into farming and they--they are not farmers but
they have been helping on the farm. And it doesn't make any
difference who is just so they wants to farm. That's the way
I look at it. That's how I look at it. It's we've
got a lot--a lot of our young people want, you know, would
like to ----------(??) but there's nothing there to--there's nothing there to come
back in to them.
MULLINAX: What made you decide to put together a will? When
01:22:00did you do that?
MACK: Well, we attended a workshop in Bowling Green, oh, several
years ago and the guy was talking about a living will. Making
a will out. And we had papers and we had made one
out, you know, and I bought myself, but it had to be
legal. Go to a lawyer and get him to write that will
up and so. We said, "We had better do it the right
way." So that's what we did. And so we learned about it
in the workshop. And then we came back and held a workshop
and told the people.
MULLINAX: What kind of workshop was it? I mean who told
you how to run it and what kind of--was it just on
wills and inheritance?
MACK: Yeah. The workshop was in Owensboro. The black farmers
conference had, had a workshop and lasted a couple of days. And
so we had this workshop on wills too. And had a certain
period of time for wills, making wills. And I was surprised that
01:23:00a lot of black farmers hadn't made no will. And said, "If
you don't make a will, the government will come in and do
it." They do what they want to do and you don't want
that. Then you better make a will. You know, get yourself together.
MULLINAX: Why do you think that this that they didn't make
wills?
MACK: The parents didn't make no wills. You know, you just--the parents
didn't have anything. They--really hadn't been in ----------(??) of making wills, you
know. If you don't have a will the government will come
in and sell your stuff at the court house door and have
somebody to oversee and paying the bills off and all that, then
you don't have to go through all of that. You know, we
didn't know. We didn't know. Some of them did.
MULLINAX: So do you think a lot more farmers--black farmers now
are making wills--
MACK: Yeah. Absolutely.
01:24:00
MULLINAX: --in this area?
MACK: Yes. Um-hm. We don't have that many black farmers in
this area. I'm the only black farmer here and then fifteen miles
from here is a black farmer. And twelve miles from here is
a little farm but the farmer died. He had cancer. So his
sister is overseeing it but she is not doing anything with it
just raising a garden on it. So--and then another black farmer is
in Garfield, Kentucky almost to ----------(??) and they farming. And the daddy
is dead but the brother keeps it up. And so he's farming
it.
MULLINAX: Um-hm.
MACK: But you don't hear of many black farmers here. And
on down the road around about eighteen or nineteen miles you have
another black farmer named Chuck Simmons and he's farming. He's old and
everything and his son is out helping him, you know, the son
came back I guess about two or three years and they're--and helping
him out. And he's an old farmer.
MULLINAX: How do you know about these black farmers? How do
01:25:00you know where they are?
MACK: Well, they are here in the county and they know
me and I know them. And visit--I visit, you know, and letting
them know some of the things that's available for them. And we've
got a lot of corn that was donated to the Community Farm
Alliance and I always in touch with the people that's white and
black to get some of the corn. And that was free. And
where the corn if you went to the store and bought it
would cost you around ninety-five or a hundred dollars a bushel. And
we got this corn free. So all we had to do was
just pay the--pay the freight. Each farmer had to pay the freight
and that's all they billed. I think it was a couple of
dollars freight or something like that. But it was--it was--it was, you
know, that was helping the farmers too ----------(??) and everything. So I'm
helping this money through Representative Morris will come through for us. He's
01:26:00the chairperson for that committee.
MULLINAX: You were saying that there was a Black Farmers Conference?
MACK: Yes.
MULLINAX: That--
MACK: In Owensboro. That--that's been, oh, about six, seven, eight years
ago.
MULLINAX: Oh, they don't have another year?
MACK: Lacking of funds. You know--
MULLINAX: Oh.
MACK: --you've got to be able to fund these things
and--and they took, you know, I didn't realize there was so many
farmers, black farmers, all, all over Kentucky that came so far. And
they are hungry for little things like this. They need to know
about different things like this.
MULLINAX: Um-hm. So you, you learned a lot about things like
wills and government programs--
MACK: Yeah.
MULLINAX: --and black farmers?
MACK: Yeah. And we wanted to go into catfish raising, a
catfish pond, but it's so expensive. We checked into it. It's to--so
expensive.
MULLINAX: Just to diversify?
MACK: Yeah.
MULLINAX: Um-hm.
MACK: Yeah. Um-hm. And the ----------(??) and thing are so expensive.
01:27:00And I always thought well if the government could do a little
bit more help to the farmer and--and the people go to the
store and you buy a catfish and you know that catfish has
been raised on a farm and not in the river. You know,
I would pay more for it because the farmer raised it. And
we know what we're eating around here. And this is what I,
I would like to see. If the government cares for farmers all
over Kentucky that they would do more for our farmers. If a
farmer, if a farmer comes up and has a bad year and
I had a good year, I would feel jealous because that farmer
is given a grant to bring him up. I always like to
see that farmer come on up to along with me and we
all have the same thing in common see. And this is--this is
the thing I would like to see. That, that--to, you know, to
01:28:00be done. That the government do more for our farmers and keep
them on the farm.
MULLINAX: Okay. Well, I really want to thank you today for
talking to me. This is an interview with Mattie Mack on December
5 in Brandenburg, Kentucky. Thank you.
MACK: Thank you. (laughs)
[End of interview.]
