Interview with Mary G. Dunn, January 8, 1992

MULLINAX: This is an oral history interview with Mary Dunn for the University of Kentucky Family Farm Oral History Project. This interview is being conducted by Maureen Mullinax on January 8, 1992 for the minority farmers sub-project. Okay. To begin can you tell me your full name and date and place of birth?

DUNN: Mary G. Dunn. March 29, '29.

MULLINAX: March of '29.

DUNN: Was born in Buckingham, Virginia.

MULLINAX: Buckingham?

DUNN: -ham, Virginia.

MULLINAX: Um-hm.

DUNN: Um-hm.

MULLINAX: Um-hm. And what about your parents? What are their full names?

DUNN: My mother's name was Hester Brown and my dad's name is Bee Brown, B-e-e.

MULLINAX: Okay. Do you remember the, the dates of their birth?

DUNN: No, I don't. No.

MULLINAX: Yeah. Are they still alive?

DUNN: No. They both, both them are deceased.

MULLINAX: Um-hm. When did they pass on?

DUNN: My mother passed in '62 and my dad in '68.

MULLINAX: Um-hm. And how many brothers and sisters do you have?

DUNN: I have seven brothers and one sister. All of my brothers are deceased except one.

MULLINAX: Um-hm. Could you go through and give me their names and, and just a little bit about them. What, what did they do and--

DUNN: My youngest one--

MULLINAX: --where they are.

DUNN: --my youngest brother, his name was David. He was mugged and killed in Boston. He went out after a newspaper at twelve o'clock at night and someone dragged him in an alley and robbed him and killed him.

MULLINAX: Yeah. When was this?

DUNN: Oh, that's been about seven or eight years ago. My next brother was Joe and he was killed in Korea. And the 00:02:00next brother was, let me see, Russell and he died of cancer. And the next brother, let me see if I missed someone, was George. He also died of cancer and the next brother was Robert. He had a heart attack and my oldest brother was Peyton. He also had a heart attack.

MULLINAX: Um-hm. And then you had a sister?

DUNN: Yes, one sister, Alice.

MULLINAX: Um-hm.

DUNN: She lives here.

MULLINAX: Um-hm. How old is she?

DUNN: She's about fifty-four, I think.

MULLINAX: Um-hm. Um-hm. And where are you in the--in the line up there?

DUNN: Let's see. I forgot to mention that. I'm between--I'm between 00:03:00George and Robert.

MULLINAX: Um-hm. So that makes you the--can you give me--

DUNN: Not really the middle. Kind of near the middle.

MULLINAX: Um-hm.

DUNN: I'm the third child.

MULLINAX: Okay.

DUNN: I'll put it that way.

MULLINAX: Okay. Okay. What do--what did all of your brothers do? What kind of jobs did they have?

DUNN: Well, the oldest one went to college three years. He has--he had a job at the post office. And the second brother worked on construction and the third brother worked at, also at the post office. And the fourth brother was a carpenter and the--the next brother worked in the coal mines and the youngest one was a mail man. He, he also worked for the post office.

MULLINAX: Um-hm. And where did they live? Where did these people live?

DUNN: At the time of their death?

MULLINAX: Yeah.

DUNN: Let's see, like I say, the youngest one lived in Boston and the next one lived--De-,--and I think the remainder--the others lived 00:04:00in Michigan. Except the oldest he lived in Buckingham, Virginia.

MULLINAX: Um-hm. Um-hm. So he stayed where he was born.

DUNN: Yes. Yes. He stayed at the home place.

MULLINAX: Um-hm. Um-hm. And what--how did these people end up in these different places?

DUNN: Well, perhaps it was just--maybe relatives living here and told them they could apply at the high school that perhaps they would find a job there. And the oldest one went to college for two--three, three years. And just--they followed different ones. One brother got offered--he found a job and the next one would started looking, you know, went, went that way too.

MULLINAX: Um-hm. Um-hm.

DUNN: So it happened like that. The others went to different relatives.

MULLINAX: Um-hm. Um-hm. What about your parents? What did they do?

DUNN: My mother used to be a teacher and my daddy had a little store.

MULLINAX: What kind of a store was it?

DUNN: Just a little small grocery store?

MULLINAX: Oh. Um-hm.

DUNN: Out in the--in the country.

MULLINAX: Near the town that you were born in?

DUNN: Yes.

MULLINAX: Um-hm. Yeah.

DUNN: Yes. Buckingham, Virginia.

MULLINAX: How long did he have that, that store?

DUNN: Oh, not too awfully long because things--times were hard and I think perhaps people did not pay--he let people have things on time and they did not pay. So he couldn't operate like that.

MULLINAX: Yeah.

DUNN: So I think he just let the store go.

MULLINAX: Um-hm. Do you know what he did after that?

DUNN: Well, he, he was kind of a--oh, what was he? He worked for a water company?

MULLINAX: A water company?

DUNN: Um-hm.

MULLINAX: Um-hm.

DUNN: And I really don't know what he did for the water company.

MULLINAX: Let's talk for a few minutes about the schooling that you went through when you were a young--young girl.

DUNN: Yes.

MULLINAX: What was, what was your schooling experience like?

DUNN: Well, in grade school it was--it was just an all black school and the school was very nice.

MULLINAX: Um-hm.

DUNN: I went to college at West Virginia State, Institute, West Virginia, but in the meantime my parents moved from Virginia where--where my mother taught school and she moved to West Virginia, because the black kids only had school for six months. And the white kids had school for nine months. So being a teacher she understood that, you know, that we were just weren't getting what we were supposed to get. So we moved to West Virginia into a house--into a house that belonged to her mother.

MULLINAX: Um-hm.

DUNN: And we stayed there from then on and then moved to another--my father bought a--purchased a house at a town and we moved there.

MULLINAX: Um-hm.

DUNN: And we stayed there until we got married and different things.

MULLINAX: Um-hm. So, so you moved to West Virginia because the schooling was better?

DUNN: Yes. Um-hm.

MULLINAX: And what exactly did your mother teach? Did you say?

DUNN: She taught a, a one-room, one- room school. I barely 00:07:00can--remember that. I remember that my brother used to help her teach, my oldest brother.

MULLINAX: Yeah.

DUNN: It was just a crowded one room school. They had to bring in the water. Go to the spring and bring the water in, outside toilets and that sort of thing, you know. It was pretty, it was pretty drab, you know. I was just a small girl--back--just look back and--look back and think about how bad it was.

MULLINAX: Were you your mother's student?

DUNN: No. I--really I had to go to school with her because--I had to go to school with her because my dad had to go to work and there was no one to keep me. I was never bad.

MULLINAX: So you started school yourself and you were born in '23--

DUNN: Um-hm. Um-hm.

MULLINAX: --and so, let's see, you started school in--

DUNN: It was about two or three years later perhaps. I can remember going to school with her but not--attending school--

MULLINAX: Right. Right.

DUNN: --but just going with her.

MULLINAX: So when you were about six or seven--

DUNN: Yes. Yes.

MULLINAX: --you went to school. So in 1929--

DUNN: Yes.

MULLINAX: --you started school.

DUNN: Yes.

MULLINAX: What was school--that was back then in the Depression. What was that like? Do you remember--

DUNN: Oh gosh.

MULLINAX: --your--

DUNN: Yes, I remember having to go home for lunch. We could either buy our lunch or go home for lunch. And I used to go home for lunch a lot of times. Mother used to fix lunch for us. She'd have something ready for us and, hmm, it's hard to go back in--I think, I think back sometimes--sometimes it's hard to remember everything.

MULLINAX: Yes.

DUNN: They were--oh, my school days were pretty nice. I was a pretty good student and I graduated from high school in nineteen, oh, was it '40. I don't know if it was '40 or '41. It might be somewhere around there anyway.

MULLINAX: Um-hm.

DUNN: And then from there I went on to college at West Virginia State. That was at Institute, West Virginia. That was very close to Charleston, West Virginia and I stayed there for four years. But I never did do--I substituted a little bit but not too much because of--and I also have substituted for my daughter at one time or another for her. She doesn't like my substituting. So she--I had one time. So that was awful. I teach for her. She said I had no control over the kids. So, so that was that--I substituted once or twice in Virginia but, you know, in West Virginia but that was different, you know. Of course, she--she's a teacher now and a very good one, so they say. She's won lots of honors for being an outstanding teacher. We're real proud of her.

MULLINAX: Yeah.

DUNN: Um-hm.

MULLINAX: So did you--you studied education when you were--

DUNN: Um-hm. Um-hm.

MULLINAX: --in school?

DUNN: Elementary, elementary education.

MULLINAX: Um-hm. Um-hm. And do you have a degree in that 00:10:00then?

DUNN: Um-hm. Um-hm. What do you want? The phone?

MULLINAX: So you went--you went to four years of college and how about you in relation to your other brothers and sisters. Did they have the same amount of education as you did?

DUNN: No. One--everybody finished high school and one brother had two years of college before he went off to the war. And the other one had--the oldest one had three years of college and, I think, perhaps he just--I don't know what happened--I think he just--he married while he was in college. And I think he just couldn't handle college and the marriage both because the marriage broke up and he, he just left college. Of course, you know, I think perhaps if he hadn't been married he might have finished it.

MULLINAX: Um-hm. Um-hm.

DUNN: But he just--after the marriage broke up he was--he, he was pretty despondent.

MULLINAX: Um-hm. What about your mother's education? Was she--she was a teacher--

DUNN: She went to the same school that I went to.

MULLINAX: Um-hm. How far did she go?

DUNN: She finished high--college four years.

MULLINAX: And your father?

DUNN: He, I think,--I don't my father made it through--made it through high school. I think he got out of the eleventh grade. I think he just dropped out, you know, and did some ----------(??).

MULLINAX: Um-hm. Um-hm. What about your own marriage. You mentioned your brother having married during college. When did you meet Arthur and marry?

DUNN: Well, that's different. That's--I was engaged, he doesn't know this, I was engaged to a boy in college and it just didn't work out. And my, my brother was in the same--they was stationed together in Fort ----------(??), Alabama or Fort Huachuca, Arizona, some place. And he just saw my picture and asked could he write to me.

MULLINAX: Um-hm.

DUNN: And that's the way he started. Just like that. And I had known him about two, I guess, a little over three or four--the war was going on then. It was just kind of 00:12:00hot and heavy the war was bad right--right through then.

MULLINAX: Right.

DUNN: A lot of people were marrying then.

MULLINAX: '44 and--

DUNN: Yes. Yes. And we got married. And we've had a pretty nice life.

MULLINAX: When--when did you marry?

DUNN: Nineteen, about, 1942, somewhere around there. Oh, somewhere.

MULLINAX: Um-hm. So you--you married after you were out of college?

DUNN: Um-hm. Um-hm.

MULLINAX: Okay.

DUNN: It was in the last year.

MULLINAX: Your last year in college?

DUNN: Um-hm. The last year and a half, I think.

MULLINAX: Okay. So--

DUNN: And then, of course, our daughter is about--

MULLINAX: Um-hm.

DUNN: --and that was a real joy.

MULLINAX: Um-hm. Can you tell me about that?

DUNN: Yes, she--we got her--see, she's thirty-two--she'll be thirty-four in June--be thirty-four and thirty-three on April 19. She's having her second baby in 00:13:00April, second child in April. And we had put in for adoption and we met one little girl, but her mother lived in Lexington. And that--and we just didn't particularly want that.

MULLINAX: Um-hm.

DUNN: And then they would come and show us different children--we could see them, but they could not see us. Through the screen like that. And we--we did not see her then--she's the only one we did not see. We got her up to the Northern--up near Cincinnati and her--her mother was black and her father was white. And she was raped by two white soldiers. And she never had any prenatal care. Her mother did not have, she was about sixteen, I think and had no prenatal care what so ever. So her--we adopted her, you know, I wish I had a picture--a picture of her. I had a--If I could get my purse, I could show you. Could you get my purse off the ----------(??)?

MULLINAX: Yeah.

DUNN: And then she went on to UK and got her masters and a principalship and the rank one. So now she can get principal of an elementary school.

MULLINAX: Oh, yeah.

DUNN: Um-hm. so she's involved now in this K-3. Have you heard about that?

MULLINAX: Um-hm.

DUNN: It's going on everywhere else just about. I think except here. It's not in--it's not in Lancaster. They are going to start it here next year and the--the parents are quite worried about it because they don't know how it's going to happen. But they say once you--see how it goes, and learn how it works, you know, that you--that you will like it. It seems it's going to be much easier. Some lady told me the other day that she didn't see how in the world anything is going to be easier with the seven year old in the same group with the nine year old. But they say it's--it works real well.

MULLINAX: Yeah.

DUNN: Um-hm. And once you get on to it they say the kids like it.

MULLINAX: Yeah. Yeah.

DUNN: And she's been working with that and she's in--and this--this summer the state department asked her would she go out to Aspen, 00:15:00Colorado and for a week to sit on a panel and discuss this K through three. And she was gone for a week out to Aspen. We kept Chase while she was gone and she--she's--she's taught classes. She's been teaching six years. This last semester she taught a class down to Somerset Community College. And the last year--last semester she taught a class at UK. It was real--real nice. She--she's got--she's a lot of honors. She's outstanding teacher of the year and she's honored down to Campbellsville at, what's the name of that college, Campbellsville College. Is that the name of it? Yeah. And she--she has received quite a few little honors for just being a great teacher.

MULLINAX: Yeah. Sounds like it.

DUNN: Yeah. She's a real, real--she's very concerned about her kids. And she always tries to have her first graders reading by December 00:16:00and which is very good, I think.

MULLINAX: Yeah. That is good.

DUNN: Um-hm. She, she works very hard. And she's expecting a baby in April but she told me as soon as, you know, that baby get a year old. She was going back to, back to school. And so you--she--you--to continue to be a good teacher she will have to continue to go to school.

MULLINAX: Right.

DUNN: And I guess that's true.

MULLINAX: Yeah.

DUNN: Because as things are changing, you know, rapidly.

MULLINAX: Um-hm.

DUNN: And she said if you have heard some of these things way before, she said, "Mama, we're behind. We'd just," and she can see it--how far they are behind, you know. That the kids are today. How far they are behind. And she--she works the kids very hard but she is very nice.

MULLINAX: Um-hm.

DUNN: And they--she--she told me the other day that she--what did she tell me about her kids. She said she had--had--she fools them sometimes. She said, she's going to work them very hard for about twenty minutes. We had to get all of our arithmetic, our reading. We had to do it all and then she'll tell them, "I'm going to let you all talk for five minutes if you talk 00:17:00quietly." And I guess that's one reason--when she works, she works. She doesn't play you know. And she makes sure that they work, you know. And but--but all the kids love her. They really love her.

MULLINAX: Yes. She sounds like a good teacher.

DUNN: Yeah. She does, she does a good--a very good job. And we're real proud of her.

MULLINAX: Yeah. I can tell.

DUNN: And her husband is real proud of her. And he's--he's a very nice young fellow, but she gets on out there and she really hustles. She just, she just--just work is what she does.

MULLINAX: Yeah. When you--when you married Arthur can you tell me about--was he a farmer then?

DUNN: No.

MULLINAX: Or what, what--

DUNN: He was in the Army.

MULLINAX: He was in the Army.

DUNN: Um-hm. That's how I met him.

MULLINAX: Right. And tell me about your--your--your first years of marriage then? What--

DUNN: Well, he was in the Army and I went--went back to school and finished up and then I stayed with his parents.

MULLINAX: Your--

DUNN: And--

MULLINAX: Where did you stay?

DUNN: His parents here.

MULLINAX: In Lancaster?

DUNN: Yeah. Um-hm. They live right--I don't know whether he showed 00:18:00you where his parents lived on top of the hill, anyway they live right down the road. We call that the valley.

MULLINAX: Um-hm.

DUNN: And then I stayed with them until he came home and then we started to house--set up housekeeping ourselves.

MULLINAX: Did they farm? Did his parents farm?

DUNN: Yes. Yes. He, he's--his parents did--his parents did big farming. His daddy did big farming.

MULLINAX: What kind of farm was it?

DUNN: Well, he raised tobacco and he baled hay for people and he--cattle and corn and did he have any sheep? I don't know whether he had any sheep or not. Well, he did have sheep, but I can't remember if he had sheep then. Sheep was just about out now. You don't see the farmers with sheep anymore, not anymore. But anyway he, he was--it was nice. He has nice parents. And then we started housekeeping and we moved down to his grandmother's house back further down the road. And later he bought the place.

MULLINAX: Did his parents own the place that you moved to 00:19:00then?

DUNN: No, his grandmother owned it.

MULLINAX: Okay.

DUNN: And we bought it from his uncle's boy lived with his grandmother from his mother and he bought it from the uncle.

MULLINAX: Okay.

DUNN: But we, we still--we stayed there a couple of years and then we sold that and bought another place up where we live now.

MULLINAX: Okay. Well, let's go back through that then. You were married, you said, back in 1942 or so, '43.

DUNN: Oh, somewhere back in there, yes.

MULLINAX: And, and then you moved in with Arthur's parents.

DUNN: Um-hm. After I come out of school.

MULLINAX: And then what did you do during that period?

DUNN: I really didn't do anything. Some--I would just--I would just go visit my parents in West Virginia. But the war was--I was--I was pretty tense I guess because of the fighting you know. And we'd hear every day so many people got killed. I don't think I could have worked if I had wanted to back in that time.

MULLINAX: Yeah. Where was Arthur stationed at?

DUNN: He was serving in, in Germany.

MULLINAX: Um-hm.

DUNN: Um-hm. And see he, he got--he was injured too. It 00:20:00wasn't Germany. It was in Italy. He was in Italy and Germany. And he got, he got his back hurt in one place in, in Italy I believe he got his back hurt. And he was--he operated the radio and he would go off up in the mountains, you know, and operate his radio, he said, by himself sometimes. And then he would find his way back to camp--where the other soldiers were. And he said it was very dangerous, very, very dangerous. And I think I worried quite a bit about that, you know.

MULLINAX: Did you do chores on the farms of your parents-in-law.

DUNN: No. No. Most of the time I stayed--I went home and stayed with my mother. But I--but most of the time I stayed with my parents in West Virginia. My mother was a diabetic and I stayed there to help her a lot.

MULLINAX: Um-hm. And when did he get back from the--

DUNN: He came back in 1946, I believe. I believe it was '46. I might have some of the dates a little mixed 00:21:00up. But I think it was '46 in the spring I believe. It may have been May or June. He didn't come straight back as soon as the war was over but it was, God, it might have been six months or--I know--I don't think it was that long. But anyway when he, he came back he--see, we stayed with his parents about, I guess, it would have been about three or four weeks and then we moved into his grandmother's house.

MULLINAX: Um-hm. Um-hm. And, and then you moved--did you farm there at his grandmother's house? Or--

DUNN: No, he still farmed at his dads.

MULLINAX: Um-hm.

DUNN: Because he had a pretty big spread. He had rented two, two or three hundred acres. So he farmed with him most, most of the farming.

MULLINAX: When did you start working on the farm? When did--when did you start?

DUNN: Right after we--after we bought--purchased our own farm.

MULLINAX: And who did you purchase your farm from?

DUNN: Let's see, we purchased that farm from a man by 00:22:00the name of ET Sutton.

MULLINAX: Okay.

DUNN: He lives up the road here. It was his wife. He is deceased. His wife lives up the road from us.

MULLINAX: Um-hm.

DUNN: And after that I, I helped set tobacco and, and helped strip tobacco for--with really, sometimes, the two of us would strip a whole crop out. And, and we farmed ourself. And we raised tobacco and his raised tobacco on somewhere else on his daddy's place and on our place. Of course, that's how we, we--they have a farm school here too that a man was teaching these young farmers, you know, about how to farm the, the, the new methods of farming, I guess.

MULLINAX: Um-hm.

DUNN: And he went and did that for a while about six--well, actually a year and a half I think. And after that we, we, we, like I say, he raised a crop at home 00:23:00and away from home. And then he started, after a while, when things--things got a little, you know, things--things had been going down for the farmer for, for a pretty good while. And after that he got him a job at the Army Depot in Lexington.

MULLINAX: Okay. Arthur is--

DUNN: Um-hm. And then he worked there for a number of years and he retired from there. No, I think he, he came home. He could retire so he just--he just--he just retired. They didn't let him go. He just retired and came on home. Because he said he was getting old, older rather. And he tried to--during the time he tried to farm and worked too. It was pretty hard. He was working a job all day and then come home and tried to farm. And then most of his work was being done on Saturdays, you know, and sometimes even on Sundays. He didn't want to do it on Sundays. Sometime on Sundays a few things he had to do. He, he also raised hogs too.

MULLINAX: When did he stop working or when did he start working at the Army Depot?

DUNN: Oh, gosh. I think he started working over there when we built that house and I really don't know when that was. I guess it was in the fifties. I guess it's bound to have been. Yes, it's bound to have been in the fifties, because he hadn't had his--I don't know. The house wasn't too old when we adopted Jenny, because I remember the lady--the lady from the department had to come, you know, and she checked the house out. And, and wanted to know where she was going to sleep and how the rooms were. And how many rooms we had, you know. And, and it's--if we could afford to take care--adopt a baby and that sort of thing, you know. And we had--we had to go through quite a bit. I understand now that you--if you live below the 00:25:00poverty line they will assist you in adopting. I guess there is so many kids to be adopted. I understand now that you can get money up until the child is 18 years of age. But all we did--we had spending money, you know, back then when we first adopted her. Because we had to take her to a doctor. Oh, I didn't tell you that. But when she was--I guess she must have been about fourteen--about sixteen months old we started taking her to a doctor in Lexington. And he put her in this little brace--

MULLINAX: Um-hm.

DUNN: --to throw her feet that way. And she had to wear corrective shoes for two years. And that went on about, I guess, we kept her under his care about three years for her to receive really good straight legs with the brace. And he, he asked me to put her down--when I put her down in the day doing the nap, to put her on the floor and put the brace on her. But I didn't do it because she got to the place where she was very uncomfortable. As she got older, 00:26:00you know, she would cry. And we would tell the stories of--or whatever. And that didn't soothe her. She just didn't want the brace on her, you know. And so sometimes Arthur would sit up with her and rock her until about one or two o'clock in the night, you know, to keep her from being so upset with the braces on. But she finally caught on--to, I'm tied down, I guess she realized, you know. And she didn't want that as she got older, you know.

MULLINAX: Yeah. She wanted--

DUNN: Yeah. Yeah. And she didn't like that at all. But corrective shoes and we had--she had to wear very expensive shoes. We had to cut--then we had to take them to a brace cutter in Lexington. And they had to run a piece inside the shoe so the shoe would kind of go that way and take her feet that way. But she is as straight as she can be now and she--she first started to high--she was a cheerleader in the grade school and when she went to--she was cheerleader all four years in--in high school. And she was in--in home coming queen cabinet. And 00:27:00she said right now she can see her--she tries to stand with her feet down in this way. And just, I guess, it's maybe out of--I don't know what it is. But it's been so long since she's had the braces and her feet have been so straight. She said, but right now she's finding her feet turning that way. This--just wouldn't quit she'll do that. But she is just a straight, perfectly straight now. But I hate to think that what would have happened if we hadn't have of taken her to the doctor. She would have been terrible, because she was really tripping. We would put her out in the yard on Sunday afternoon and she would just fall, you know, and that would have been terrible too. Of course, if we hadn't of adopted her I don't know--I guess they would have corrected it. I don't know. I guess--I'm sure they would have. But when she--once we got the braces on--kept them on--he was the one that put the braces on her. I, I couldn't put the braces on her.

MULLINAX: Well.

DUNN: He put them on her and she would cry and, 00:28:00and go on. And then he would take her up and hold her, you know, until she fell asleep and it was very, very hard. And that was very hard for us because time--we fell in love with her, you know, and she with us. And so many people have complimented us, you know, about adopting a little girl that--that couldn't hardly walk, you know. She could hardly walk and taking care of her and doing that and educating her. And then let her go on to, you know, just--just let her go on to be a nice young lady. She has been a very nice young lady. Very high morals girl because we taught her. She has been in church all of her life, Sunday school, and all of her books are over ----------(??). She's down to UK and everywhere else. Her books are there. And she is--she thinks nothing of all of the compliments that she's--of all of the things she accomplished. She doesn't think anything about them, because she says--I write a little column for a newspaper--for 00:29:00the newspaper here. And she said, "Mamma, don't put nothing in the paper about me going--me going to so and so and stuff." I said, "Jenny, I'm not going to mention your name or anything about you going anywhere." And she's--she taught at UK all last summer. She taught for, let's see, she taught, oh, she taught for about two months at UK. And after that she--I kept the baby and then--then during her second semester she taught over there. And then last semester she taught down to Somerset Community College. She--she taught down there for--for the teachers to come up to the Cumberland area up to Somerset and over to UK for the, for the teachers in this area and that area over there to come to school at UK to learn about this K-3 or K-4. Whatever it is. And she, she doesn't feel very proud about things she has accomplished. She just says that God has been good to her. That's all she says, you know.

MULLINAX: Yeah.

DUNN: But I--

MULLINAX: It sounds like she's done real well.

DUNN: Yeah. She has. She's done very, very well for herself. And, of course, I should give us some credit because she was raised in a Christian home and I think that's very important. And she--she's done very well for herself.

MULLINAX: Yeah.

DUNN: Along with our help.

MULLINAX: Yeah. Let's talk about your--your life on--on the farm when you were --when you first started out farming? What kind of a farm did you have when you first started out? What, you know, you bought this place what kind of acreage went with it? What was the house like?

DUNN: Yeah. We had--of course, the acreage--after we had--Let's see, we had about three or four acres. And then we raised an acre and a half or two with his dad. And--

MULLINAX: Tobacco or?

DUNN: Um-hm. Yes. Tobacco and we had cattle. And we had--

MULLINAX: How many head of cattle did you have?

DUNN: I don't know how many head of cattle we had. I think he, he had about ten, served about ten head of cattle. And things were--were pretty rough, you know, just to stand watch, 00:31:00you know. And that's one reason why he went to the Army Depot and got a--he took a ninety day--they hired him temporary for about ninety days. After ninety days were up they hired him permanent.

MULLINAX: And this was back in the fifties you said?

DUNN: Um-hm. Um-hm.

MULLINAX: Right.

DUNN: And, of course, that helped a whole lot, you know. But trying to farm and--of course, farming like that you sell cattle every now and again. And, of course, going to farm school they pay you a little bit for that. And--he--things were pretty, pretty rough until he got a job at the depot and then we built the house, you know.

MULLINAX: And what kind of work did you do at that time?

DUNN: Well, I--we were milking cows. I milked cows while I was--he was gone and we sold milk--sold milk, but that soon stopped after we had got Jenny. We stopped that, you know. And he was working also. So we just stopped milking and started getting all beef cattle then.

MULLINAX: Um-hm. Um-hm.

DUNN: And then we kept all--we still have nothing but beef cattle now.

MULLINAX: Um-hm. How many head of cattle do you have now?

DUNN: I really don't know how many head we've got over there. I can tell when none is missing, but I think twelve, maybe twelve or thirteen. And then he has half of the cattle up here. See, this was his dad's farm.

MULLINAX: And did--is that what your daughter has now?

DUNN: Yes. This is his daddy--and he gave the farm to his four sisters and uncle, his dad did. And she--she purchased it from them, my daughter did. She bought it from--from her daddy and his four sisters.

MULLINAX: Do you remember how that was passed down to Arthur and sisters. How the land was passed down?

DUNN: He just gave it to them.

MULLINAX: Was there a will of any sorts do you remember?

DUNN: Well, I tell you how it happened. He gave it to them but they weren't supposed to get any money until he was deceased. He got all of the profits from the farm but 00:33:00it was still theirs. He paid the taxes and everything but they did not get any money.

MULLINAX: So prior to his death he gave his--

DUNN: Yes.

MULLINAX: --those other sisters and--

DUNN: Yeah. He's still living, you know.

MULLINAX: Oh, his father is still living?

DUNN: Yes. He just gave it to them for some reason or another and all of them have equal shares. Up to ninety-eight, ninety-eight acres here. And after that Jen--she had rented from her father, grand-father, and she--she kind of liked it to go--at the--they are going to fix two--two or three bedrooms upstairs and a half bath as soon as they get some of the--the debt off of them. And it's nice--it's a big nice house you know. And he had rented it to people and they had tore down the mantle. They tore down that mantle and made a fire place out--and burn it up. The people had--this house was a wreck, a total wreck. They were tearing up the floors and making fire out of them and so 00:34:00they--that's one reason why he wanted Jen to move in here to take care of the place better. And she--she, he just gave it to them, but he received all the profits. Everything he received one, I think, one sister didn't particularly like it. She wanted to receive the money. I mean she wanted--I really--I really don't think she wanted it because she was--I don't know whether she wanted it. But anyway Jen started to live in it--started to live here and she took real good care of the place. And this sister--she spent some money on the place to, you know, and her grandfather spent some money on it too because she was renting from him. And then he decided to let them have it. Of course, Arthur gave him her part--he gave her part--his part to her, but she said she--she didn't want him to give it to her. As soon as they got straightened out she was going to pay them back. And, of course, she's an only child, you know. And then after that she decided 00:35:00to buy it from the four sisters and uncle. And she had--had some problems with it, because what she did--they did not--they did not--and he worked very, very hard for her to get it. They did not--I think they wanted the money in the hand, but what they did--they took the money. She took, she took two hundred and fifty dollars and one hundred and fifty to two hundred and fifty dollars in a savings. And they'll be paid in nine years--they'll pay for it and they will get their money. But I don't think they particularly like--one of them--two of them--two of them said they don't care. They wanted her to have it, you know. And the others want--he had one sister that was--she had to hire her a lawyer and then she--she did a lot of questions, you know. And so his daddy said if he didn't sell it that--that's the only way he wanted her to sell it, because he knowed she couldn't come up 00:36:00with twenty-five--seventy-five thousand dollars for which they paid for it. And so he said--he said he would take it back and sell it to her himself. And he could take it back if he wanted to, but he didn't. But he finally said he was going to work on all of them. And they finally--and I got a little angry with them because if it had been their kids he would not have said a word, he would have went right ahead and signed it. And say, "Yes, they can buy it." Yes.

PERSON: What was the name of the school you went to?

DUNN: West Virginia State. And, and so when--he--then his daddy purchased another house down there by his sisters. She--she's a medical technician. She has left her job. I guess she has retired and she's come in here believing that she's going to fix up another house down there on the road.

MULLINAX: And who's sister is this? Arthur's sister?

DUNN: Um-hm. And that's the one that raised all the hell. And so Jenny said, "I don't want to do anything to hurt--hurt ----------(??). She's so ----------(??)." I said, I said, "Well, maybe," she said, 00:37:00"Because I know how much trouble she had inside for getting her," it's not that he didn't want her to have it. He didn't want to--they wanted to--they couldn't get the money in the hand right now and then. And they did not like--

MULLINAX: Right.

DUNN: -- not getting--"Well, I want my part now." But see the daddy--grand-daddy made this--her to put it in the savings and then everybody would be paid in nine years. And see, they'll get all paid off. And which is a good way. I think it's good as long as she puts two hundred and fifty a month in the bank and her husband put's two hundred and fifty in the bank. And by that nine years they'll have it all paid off. And, of course, they have a tobacco crop and the corn.

MULLINAX: So your--your daughter and her husband raise crops?

DUNN: They--they'll have a tenant.

MULLINAX: Oh, okay.

DUNN: But they told the tenant that he will have to get his money from someplace else to pay--to pay for his hands and, of course, he's the manager of a store and she is teaching. But yet still it's going to be hard for them--they both--they, you know, already got a little boy. And they are going to 00:38:00have repairs--repairs on that house and the boy has to be paid. Yes.

PERSON: What year was Jenny born?

DUNN: Janet? '68. Was it '68? She's thirty--she's thirty-two. Okay. '68.

MULLINAX: Okay. Seventy.

DUNN: Okay. And so it has caused a little conflict not between he, he's a very gentle person. He doesn't--he's real--'68.

MULLINAX: 1960.

DUNN: And he's very laid back and is very nice. And he's just, he's just kind of maneuvered the sisters into coming over, you know, and he's on--this way--and it's only two of them. One of two of them wasn't too particular about--about not getting the money 00:39:00until nine years from now, you know, cause don't any of them need it. Don't any of them need it. The one that's come here now, she's been a medical technician and she's bought the house from his dad. And then she paid twenty thousand for it. He wouldn't let nobody else have it for this ten or twenty thousand dollars for it and the next thing she do. She has a beautiful home and she has her own shop in her basement and her husband is a detective and the next one is retired from the post office. And the next one, she's a nurse in Lexington. So none of them need the money, but I don't know what it was. I don't know if it was resentment, but she has done so well in her life until--their kids have not done as well.

MULLINAX: Oh.

DUNN: And I think there might be a little jealousy, little resentment, I think. You can almost--you can almost tell here sometimes that 00:40:00it's something very--that they are not to happy about her getting this place. But, hey, I told one sister, I said, "Well, you're not giving it to her." I said, "You're not getting the money right now, but this is the way your daddy wanted it. This place" I said, "he can take it back at any time he wants to." And he can. The lawyer has already told him that he can take it back and sell it to them, but now that it's all cut and dry and they got it. And everybody has signed everything that they are supposed to sign. So it's just theirs now you know. And then on top--during the time that we were--my sister was at the time alcoholic and we took care of all of her kids, most of her kids. Most of her kids--we raised most of her kids off and on.

MULLINAX: Oh. I need to stop.

[Pause in recording.]

MULLINAX: So you've raised your sister's kids?

DUNN: Yeah. Two or three--they were all until we completely--two we took when they were very young.

MULLINAX: Um-hm.

DUNN: And, of course, they were getting VA Pension from their dad. Their dad was deceased.

MULLINAX: Um-hm.

DUNN: And during the time that their mother was an alcoholic--we kept them and they graduated from high school and they went to Eastern. And one--she was--her son went to Eastern for two years and he just didn't--he just lost interest. He didn't want to go and do that. And he didn't want to go any more. So he stopped from--the girl stayed up there until she was a junior and then she left school. And she went to stay with a friend. You know how these college friends sometimes will go stay with each other and they know. But she's done very well for herself though. She--she is an inspector at a plant and then--she went to a business school, National Business College in Martinsville, Virginia. And she graduated from there and then she has a job as inspector at a--at a plant. They call them mills in--in--

MULLINAX: Um-hm.

DUNN: --North Carolina. And she stays there. She's done real good. She's been married. She stayed married for six months and she's trying her best to get out of this marriage but he doesn't have--her 00:42:00husband doesn't have a job. He just keeps coming back, you know, "We can make it." But he doesn't have anything. But she is the one that's working, you know. He isn't work. Of course, I can understand his point, you know, he has to have a roof over his head. And, of course, she--she right now she's living with the administrator of the college. They are very good friends and he, he wants her to get an apartment so that he can come back--so that they can start again, you know. But she says it'll never happen--

MULLINAX: Yeah.

DUNN: --because she doesn't--she's not going through it any more. She's not going through the headache any more. And I can see her point to and we hope that she doesn't go back to him.

MULLINAX: Yeah.

DUNN: And then her kids come to me and all--we have taken care of a lot. We have taken a lot of kids into our home and try our best to educate them. And I have--I have a little niece that lives--she lives on the same road that we live on. She's a writer and she's a very brilliant young girl but she--has two sons. She and her husband are separated now. We took--we take--I still take care of her youngest son. She, 00:43:00he gets--his, his daddy is--he has a mental problem and she has a little mental problem. She's imbalanced of chemicals in her body and her--she has a son that has that. But the other son he's--he's the one that's sixteen or seventeen he is a senior. He's kind of our pick. He's a senior in high school and he's supposed to--he got hurt real bad. Arthur what is Chase doing? Huh? Okay. And he got hurt real bad playing football and we've been kind of cuddling him. And he's been going to this athletic center in Lexington where they take care of the athletes, you know, and he's--he's in a--he has been out of school a long time. He went back Monday. After Christmas he went back. And he's a real smart little--both of her kids are real brainy. He's a real smart little 00:44:00boy but we've got to keep on pushing him--pushing him. He's smart but he wants--he wants to fool around. And I called him last night. I said, "Derick what are you doing?" He said, "I'm studying my English. We have a test tomorrow." I says, "Good." And we, we--see, we do for them and he gets money monthly and she, she has a heart problem. And she has a test that needs to be run on her that's going to cost close to three thousand dollars--

MULLINAX: Oh, no.

DUNN: --and she doesn't have any insurance but her--her mother is an orthopedic nurse in New York. But she helps her a whole lot and she came down when the little boy got hurt and stayed for, oh, I guess she stayed for two weeks. But we still have people that we have to help and see we have to live ourselves. And then the times that I help Janet that we don't--since she's bought the place now, I take care of the baby. She pays me to real good for that-- and then I take a little girl to--to the highway to catch the bus. She 00:45:00lives down here. The board of education pays me for that and that's why I have a little income, you know. So I use that to help-- I help--I help pay bills at home and I also have my little--I help my niece. And sometimes they don't even have food. She--she won't come down home and eat but the boys will come right on. And she has a son that's been in some trouble. He was in school and in college, but he's just in trouble. So I don't know for how that trouble will come out but it--it's--I've been through a lot of worry really. Of, you know, trying to raise my sister's kids. These two boys down there and, and I want--and Jenny says, "Mamma you want everybody to be perfect and people are not perfect. They are not going to be perfect. So you should accept that." But what bothers me is the young people that--that quit school and they're on the street. If you 00:46:00quit school in --if you quit in the high--if you quit in high school and the first thing for you to do, the first thing you know you are on drugs. You are out there on streets and that happens to--and most of the kids that I see that are on drugs are drop-outs from high school, a lot of them are. And I--and I don't want Derick to do this. Of course, he's a senior. I think he will graduate on time. I certainly hope so but he plans to go to college though. And I, I hope so to, but I will try to help me the little bit that I can you know. So that's what it is. But we have to have a problem with drugs. It's really--there have been times when my sister would go away from home and stay overnight or two nights and the kids would be there at home with no food. We would bring them to our house to feed them and people tell us all the time, say, "The good Lord financially blessed you all." Because I don't know who would have done that, but I think I would have done that for anyone not only relatives, you know. Those that their mother had gone off 00:47:00and left them.

MULLINAX: Yeah.

DUNN: We have, we have such a problem with that now, you know. That was just abuse. She was really abusing her kids. But she'd go all week getting drunk and she would take food in the refrigerator and sell it for whiskey. And they would be there with no food. I should have had her up for it, but I did not. We chose to, to help take care of them, you know. You can stay with us and feed them.

MULLINAX: Yeah. Yeah.

DUNN: But it's been pretty rough on us at times.

MULLINAX: Yeah. It sounds like it.

DUNN: Yeah.

MULLINAX: Sounds like you've been through a lot?

DUNN: Oh, yeah. We have been through a lot and it bothers me sometimes that it has been my people. Not his people, but are my people. And but, but he's been very willing, you know. But he, he realized that the kids couldn't help themselves, you know.

MULLINAX: Right.

DUNN: And I guess being Christians, you know, that's what it's all about, you know. And so it has been rough, you know, we are making it. It's good. God has been good to us.

MULLINAX: Well--

DUNN: So we can't complain.

MULLINAX: So over--over the time, you've basically made a living by 00:48:00Arthur working and--

DUNN: Um-hm. Um-hm.

MULLINAX: --off the farm and then working--

DUNN: At the Army Depot.

MULLINAX: --the farm as well.

DUNN: Um-hm.

MULLINAX: Can you tell me more about--about the farm. What farm life has been like for you? What kind of things you--you've learned over the years in terms of farming of--

DUNN: Well, I learned--one thing I learned about farming that you--you have to read everything you see pertaining to farming. How to make your farm more profitable. Now, I've done that. Of course, I have passed that on to him.

MULLINAX: Well, tell me about that. How--how exactly have you done that?

DUNN: Having--having soil tested and that you cannot put the same crop back in the field year after year without fertilize and things of that nature, you know. And let's see I just--I will pick up--I read everything I see and I give that to him by not reading. He reads the comic strip. Something that he wants to 00:49:00read he might read it, but read just about everything. And things of that nature and--

MULLINAX: And where are the best places to find information about the farms?

DUNN: Well, extension office and reading. And then from TV. Agricultural programs that will come on, you know, and people will talk. And I know--I used to listen to a man from U.K. every Saturday morning and he is deceased now. But he would come on and give a lot of good information to farmers, you know. And right through here now. And farmers--there is no money to be made on the farms. You have to be very--

MULLINAX: Why is that?

DUNN: --very careful, because the farm expenses is so expensive. Everything that you have to buy is very expensive. Like canvas for your tobacco bed, seed and everything is double in price. Well, you get ready to sell your tobacco, well, you don't get much to cover 00:50:00all these expenses. So you have to keep your expenses as low as you possibly can. And if you--there is gas to be for the tractors and cultivators and that sort of thing, you know. And then sometimes tractors break down and the parts you have to buy is--is so expensive it makes you sick.

MULLINAX: Why do you keep going at it?

DUNN: Well, we were born and bred into it. Well, he was. And so you see he knows more about farming than he does anything else. Of course, he did--he went to work at Avon, Army depot. He did very well. He did real good over there and he got two or three raises and, and job opportunities, you know, up on the job. And but once--once the--it's--see, that's all the work that he really and true knew is coming up on the farm and his dad--his family, you know. And he loves the farm. He and it's kind of hard to pull you away from the 00:51:00farming. I guess it would be hard for me if I was born and bred on the farm, you know. It would be very hard for me. But--but Arthur is like his daddy. Now his daddy has been a wonderful farmer but he knows--he's still a man but he's a, I guess, he's self-educated or whatever you call them. He always paid--he always could turn a dollar over.

MULLINAX: Your--your--

DUNN: Yes.

MULLINAX: --father-in-law.

DUNN: Yes. Un-huh. And he's a person that his mother put out when he was just a little tiny boy. See his daddy was white--his daddy was white and his mother black.

MULLINAX: Arthur's father?

DUNN: Yes, his father. His father's mother--No, his father's mother was black and his dad was white. His father ignored him. I think she worked in the home.

MULLINAX: Okay. This is Arthur's father--

DUNN: Daddy. Yes.

MULLINAX: --was white.

DUNN: Um-hm. And he--and there are all different colors. Now he, he has a sister that is just as white as you are. 00:52:00And then he got one my color and has some a little bit darker than that, but anyway he, he has worked very, very hard. He has worked terribly hard and he has made money farming, but he knew how to--he, I guess, it was perhaps. He knew when to buy, when not to buy, when to sell, when not to sell, you know, the cattle and stuff like that. And he just come up a hard--he had no mother or no daddy either. His father didn't. He just made it on his own, because he told us many times that he's gone by some white lady's house that he did chores for. And he has squeezed and she had cooked potatoes with the peelings on them. And she had peeled the potatoes, Irish potatoes and put them in the garbage. And he has squeezed the garbage and ate the potatoes. So he has come up--so the only thing I can say, God has just been with him, because coming up like that. I said he could have been in the penitentiary. He could have done anything. Not having no parents, you know, to guide him.

MULLINAX: How did he--how was he raised? Who did he live with?

DUNN: Different people. He lived house to house doing odd jobs. Mostly white people and then some were very nice to him and some weren't. And after he got to the place where he started to--got a little age on him and he taught himself how to read. And everything else he taught himself. But evidently--I said, "If the man had an education he would have been--he would have been a brilliant person." If he had any schooling whatsoever. I don't think he's been in school but one day in his life from the time--look how he has made it.

MULLINAX: Um-hm. Do you know how he started buying--how did he start farming?

DUNN: Well, I think he married Arthur's mother when she was nineteen and he was twenty and they started living there around on different--different tenant farms that he farmed. And evidently he--it was very harsh as how they would save, save, save. And she started sewing when 00:54:00she was very young. Her mother taught her how and she--she made all of kids clothes and made all of her clothes and she was very saving. And he put cabinets--he made cabinets in his house for himself. He did a lot of the work himself. And the refrigerator that in there that Jan has that's the first refrigerator that she has ever--she ever had. And she gave it to Jan. And Jan said, "I should get me another refrigerator Mamma." She said, "But I wouldn't get rid of this one. This is my grandmother. I wouldn't give it." And they are so crazy about her. They love her better--it's really strange that she's adopted but they are more crazy about her than they are any--any grandchildren they have got. They are very, very fond of her. And everybody is very fond of Janet, but they really love her. So because of the way she is. And when she--and she--she was sixteen years old, she got her a job working at the court house. Typing for one of the prosecuting 00:55:00attorneys. Typing--typing for somebody and seventeen years old she got a little summer job working at school. She would get a job every summer. She would have her a little job. She'd go find her a job. She'd say, "Daddy take me to town. I'm going to find me a job today." And of course they had jobs for kids, high school kids then. I think they still do now, but they don't hire as many now as they did. Because my niece--my niece and my nephew they've got jobs. But she--she's been hustling for a long time. And she's wanted to--and I've been pretty hard. I'm pretty strict. She wanted a tv in her room when she was at Centre and I said, "No." And she got a little upset, but she didn't say anything. And she wanted a car and I said, no again. And she didn't get a car until she did her practicing teaching. She got a car then and she needed a car then 'cause she had to go to one of the grade schools every day. And when she got to be a senior she received--we got her a TV and that--and I think those things, you know, 00:56:00and then I've seen so many kids have--because this is--this is a little rich--Centre is a rich school, but she'd tell me all the time I was the only poor one over there. But she never would tell me that. But she had some very, very rich friends. She had some real rich white friends, real nice to her. She had one girl that lived in Florida and she would bring her back sacks of oranges every Christmas when she went home and she would keep her car over here for her, you know, while she went to Florida for Christmas vacation. And then she'd have other friends from California. Some from Oregon, you know, some that she still keep in touch with and they were very, very, the rich kids were very nice to her. You, you--when you--I'll tell you what they were--they were--some of those black kids were not poor and then some of them were, but the white kids, most of them, in fact all of them were rich. They were senators' daughters and presidents, presidents of firms. Sons--sons that were over there. They were rich, spoiled bad kids. 00:57:00Some of them--some of them were--some of them were pretty bad. They would do all kinds of tricks. And they, they had--and Jen said--and she was--over--in her senior year she was over--over her dorm, you know, and these girls would--went somewhere and bought two--two big things of beer. And they--from the steps that poured that beer all the way down the steps. And she was coming home for Christmas and she said, "Mama, you don't even see this. Somebody would clean it up." But they did some bad things. I guess the rich--sometimes rich folks forget about their kids.

MULLINAX: Yeah.

DUNN: They're nothing--they--they just let--they send them money, but see that's not--that's not all of it. They--they would come up to me flowers on homecoming or something like that, you know, to be--have their picture put in the year book or something like that. And then other than that they--they probably don't see their kids. And but she, she, 00:58:00she cried when she first went to Centre. She cried for two weeks and we'd go over there and cook, cook her--you going to answer that?

PERSON: ----------(??) I've got to ----------(??).

DUNN: Hold. Can you hold just a--

[Pause in recording.]

DUNN: Taking care of other people's kids and but all and all lit's been pretty comfortable. We, you know, we even got pretty good health. So hey what can you say.

MULLINAX: Yeah.

DUNN: You can say that--that we've done very well.

MULLINAX: Um-hm.

DUNN: Um-hm.

MULLINAX: One thing that you talked about a few minutes ago was learning about farming from the extension--

DUNN: Um-hm.

MULLINAX: --service?

DUNN: Um-hm.

MULLINAX: Can you tell me about your--your and Arthur as well your relationship with the extension agent here in--in the county?

DUNN: Well, we--our extension agent, I don't know too much--Well, I do know he--I belong to Garrard County Fair Board and he is on the fair board. The extension agent is. But we would go by there and pick up pamphlets. I think that's mostly what we 00:59:00learned about it. Just going by the extension office and asking him about such and such a thing and he give us pamphlets perhaps tell us too, you know. And then, let's see, no we haven't come in contact with the agent very much. It was just that things we picked up through farms--as I said, we ordered--we subscribed to farm books and things of that nature. And then we are always and on the other hand how we made--I always froze a lot of foods. We'd kill our own beef and we'd kill our own pork, hogs. So therefore that has kept the grocery bill down and, and it's very good right now, because everything is so expensive, you know.

MULLINAX: How did you learn about that?

DUNN: How did I learn?

MULLINAX: About preserving food?

DUNN: Um-hm. Well, mostly from my mother-in-law and then he, he's taught me some things. And then I just--I did reading from the 01:00:00newspaper and magazines and I, I love to read. I don't get a chance to read much, but I do love to read and some tv. And I used to belong to the Homemakers Club, but I think I've learned everything that the homemakers can teach me, you know. So I'm not--I'm not in that anymore.

MULLINAX: Um-hm.

DUNN: And--but I learn a lot of things. I could not cook good, but I'm a pretty good cook right now. And my daughter is an excellent cook and she did not cook at home at all. All the thing she doesn't do is iron. She can't iron anything and she don't iron anything. (laughs) Her husband either iron her clothes or I iron them. Either--she--I iron them. She, she--it's a funny thing she wears my clothes. When she has to go to--she got to go to the Hyatt tomorrow and I bought a dress for her to wear tomorrow. And she got--she puts everything on her little boys back but she doesn't buy anything for herself much. But she has some nice functions that she has to go to, you 01:01:00know, I said, "Jen you need to come over to the house and get this dress I got for you to wear it, because you don't have anything decent to wear over there." And she don't wear my things--she take her money and put it on--on Chase. And she buys expensive stuff for him, gosh. I, I don't know how--I don't know why she does that. But she--she didn't have a whole lot of things but the things that she had were nice. They were good things and they last a long time. But she--she buys a lot of expensive, very expensive clothes for him. Now he's almost a little fashion plate because she--she spends everything on him. She's got toys and--cause he told me one day. He said, "I have everything. I've got toys outside and toys inside. And I got," and for three years old he's just amazing. He's a very bright little fellow.

MULLINAX: Oh, he is. I can see it.

DUNN: Yes, he's a very smart little fellow, but I guess, let me see, I'd say we just about know everything there is 01:02:00about--I don't help too much in stripping tobacco now because I take care of him. And then when I go home I have to straighten the house up and cook something, you know. And by that time--by the time I get a lot of things. So much that I've got over home that I need to do that I really haven't go around to it, but I just don't have the time. And on Saturday I like to have a little time for myself sometime you know. We do. And sometimes we'll go out and eat. Sometime, you know, we never go any further than to Long John Silver's, but, you know, it is getting out of the house you know. And buying my groceries and other things. And sometimes--I go shopping with my daughter. I go shopping with her quite--we've always--last week the school was--I think one day before school was started back from the Christmas Holiday we went to the Children's Museum in--in Lexington.

MULLINAX: Um-hm.

DUNN: And he really enjoyed it. He loved it. We stayed two and a half hours there.

MULLINAX: Yeah. It's nice.

DUNN: And they took him--they take him to a lot of places. They--they go down to Gatlinburg, Tennessee and they went up to 01:03:00Canada and they like--they take him on all kinds of trips. So he's learning a lot of things.

MULLINAX: Yeah. Yeah.

DUNN: Um-hm.

MULLINAX: One thing that you were talking about too is that it is very hard for a--for farmers to make it today. Is there any kind of thing that you could suggest that--that could help farmers?

DUNN: Well, the only thing that I know is--it's pretty rough, I--the only thing that I can say is that to cut expenses. Other than that they are--they are--I think they are sunk. If you can--most farmers spend more than what they take in. See when you spend more than what you make, you're going--you're hurting. And the tobacco--tobacco seeds, canvas, gas, oil and that sort of thing. And then help, 01:04:00if you need help and most folks--most farmers--

MULLINAX: Do you hire people?

DUNN: Yes. We have to hire--

MULLINAX: Who do you hire?

DUNN: --sometimes. Especially to strip tobacco and, and--and to cut tobacco. And it's hard for us because--because most of the hands now that we hire want you to pay them in cash and you know what that is for. And that goes up and you don't have to pay, you know, any income tax, because they don't want you taking no tax out. And that--that's all the farmers and that falls back on the farmers.

MULLINAX: Yeah.

DUNN: And that's very hard and the farmers--the farmers in this--in this area, I guess, all other areas are having a very hard time. It's very hard.

MULLINAX: Yeah. Who do you end up hiring?

DUNN: Oh,--

MULLINAX: I mean are they local people or people you--

DUNN: Yeah.

MULLINAX: --know?

DUNN: The, he's--this tenant that he has he, he's a good fellow but he's a drunk. But he usually stays sober enough to--to 01:05:00get his work done, because--now he can get a lot of hands. He, he knows quite a few other drunks. So they--they stay sober enough because Arthur let him--he let him know that, you know, this is business and he--they stay sober enough. And then he hired--then he hired some of his family. And I think he is going to raise Janet's crop too. And but he, he's a--he's a good person. He just drinks whiskey. He just loves whiskey.

MULLINAX: Yeah.

DUNN: So, you know, other than that he's just--we like him a whole lot.

MULLINAX: Yeah.

DUNN: And--

MULLINAX: What if you--if you wanted to make some improvements on your property, how easy would it be for you to do that? Or get some new equipment to expand your farm or buy some new land?

DUNN: Well, buy new equipment is completely out. We just have to use the equipment that we have. When it breaks down, we just have to fix it. Buying equipment, farm machinery, is completely out 01:06:00of--now his daddy purchased a tractor some two years ago for Arthur to use and I think it cost about 9 thousand dollars. But buying new equipment is just almost out and the other thing you--you can't take your machinery to the shop very often. You've got to learn how to fix some of the things yourself.

MULLINAX: Yeah.

DUNN: Because if you take it to the shop that's sixty or seventy dollars and sometimes a farmer can't come up with that kind of money right, you know, just like that. And you just have to take care of your machinery. Keep it oiled and then in the winter you have to put it in the barn, a shed or whatever you know, because taking--buying the farm machinery is just about out unless you're rich.

MULLINAX: Um-hm. Can you get a loan?

DUNN: Well, we--I think we done got too many loans now. We just--we're paying back loans that we have purchased over the years, 01:07:00you know. And sometimes that's--see, if your crops--you repay our loans out of that crop. And you know if--sometimes if your--your tobacco is not--you don't always have a good crop. Sometimes you don't have any rain and you--you're crop is not much and you don't get as much money out of it. And then you have to pay what you can afford to pay, you know, plus all of your other bills that come in--come due. There is property taxes and then there is--there is license and insurance on the car, insurance on the truck and that stuff mounts up. And it--all come due. Then on the place you have to pay taxes and then there are some--there are some of the taxes in the city--in town that we have to pay water tax, school tax, library tax, that sort of thing is added on to us, you know. So it's, it's--this--just, you know, just living 01:08:00endures.

MULLINAX: Yeah.

DUNN: This is pretty hard.

MULLINAX: It's expensive, isn't it?

DUNN: Yes, you just have to cut corners wherever you can cut corners.

MULLINAX: Did you--

DUNN: And right now--we had to raise our house up and right now all of the back of the house is--we put plastic is across there. But this spring we've got to put in concrete block. And he has trouble--he has a deteriorating disk and he can't--he's got to hire somebody to help him do that.

MULLINAX: Yeah.

DUNN: Um-hm.

MULLINAX: Is it--do you know, is it--if you wanted to get a loan how easy it would be for you to get a loan?

DUNN: Well, I don't think we need to get a loan right now. I think we just have to keep moving the way that we are moving and paying just--if we can keep our head above water. Just pay when it's due. I mean, I think, you know, that's--that's the best way to do it right now, you know.

MULLINAX: Um-hm. Um-hm.

DUNN: Pay for everything that's due. Not to try to borrow any more money, because I think money is tight to the borrower. Because so many banks have--just one particular one--farmers I don't know if 01:09:00they have loans anymore, because they said they can't get them bank. And banks are a little scary too right now.

MULLINAX: Um-hm.

DUNN: A lot of banks are defunct you know. And so, you know, it's just hard--it's hard--it's hard for everybody.

MULLINAX: Yeah. Have you experienced any kind of discrimination with loans in the past? When you and Arthur were kind of--when you did get your loans?

DUNN: Now, my daughter has.

MULLINAX: Did you experience it?

DUNN: Yes. She thinks she has. She went to the Garrard Bank to borrow and they told her that she needed to get some of her small bills down, but she was very upset. Because she said she knew if a white person had gone there to borrow seventy thousand dollars. And they did not let her have the money. So she moved her account--she moved everything she had from the Garrard Bank. And she said wasn't anything but prejudice. That's all it was.

MULLINAX: What kind of loan was she trying to get?

DUNN: They--to buy this house?

MULLINAX: And the property?

DUNN: For the farm. Yes. The farm.

MULLINAX: Okay. So she did.

DUNN: And there's been a couple of white people that wanted this farm and I think perhaps--she seemed to think that--that it was 01:10:00such a thing that some of them wanted this place and might not want her to have the money to buy. And I said Jenny you think that's true? She said, "Well, Mamma, from all indications I do feel that that is true." But they were--they were going to keep the farm in the family anyway. They didn't weren't going to sell the ninety-eight acres and the house and all. They didn't want to sell that to anybody. They wanted to keep it in the family and with her buying it and with her teaching. And I guess there will always be a place for her--for teachers and, of course, her husband's job might be a little be--might later on down the road be a little, of course, I doubt it. He's a manager at Big Lots. So I doubt it. He probably will always have but--but he had six weeks left in college and did never go back. When he met--saw Jen he left college in West Virginia and came here and started being manager of--he was the manager of Heck's. You know, the Heck's has really moved out of the 01:11:00state, I think. And he--but I just know--getting money is pretty hard.

MULLINAX: Did she end up borrowing money then, at all, to buy this place?

DUNN: No. No. Her daddy came up with this idea and her grandfather came up with the idea of putting it in the bank.

MULLINAX: So that's how--

DUNN: And see now--

MULLINAX: --entered into that--

DUNN: Yeah. Yes. That's the--the sisters are not too happy about because it's being put into a savings.

MULLINAX: Okay. So originally she would have liked to have paid them on the spot--

DUNN: Yeah.

MULLINAX: --but she couldn't because--

DUNN: Yes.

MULLINAX: --she couldn't get a loan.

DUNN: Yes. She would have liked to have paid them--

MULLINAX: I see.

DUNN: --on the spot and then had this upstairs fixed up there, because there are two or three rooms upstairs there. They are good solid rooms that just need to be partitioned off and that sort of thing maybe. I don't think they even need floors in them. She said perhaps sanded down and she wanted to put a half bath of there too, you know.

MULLINAX: To rent or?

DUNN: No. No. Just for the family.

MULLINAX: Oh, just for herself.

DUNN: The family.

MULLINAX: Okay.

DUNN: So, you know, you have to think about that.

MULLINAX: Yeah.

DUNN: Yeah. She really wanted to get the money to pay them off, but when that fell through. I realize 75 thousand dollars is a lot of money nowadays, but I think the lenders had to realize what kind of jobs they had. And she's been teaching for ten years, eleven years. And he makes real good--real good money. And, of course, they are in partnership with a cabin on Cumberland Lake with--with his parents and they have paid that part off. They are free of debt on that. I don't know what else they own. Well, let's see what else did they owe? I don't know of anything else they owe.

MULLINAX: Hmm.

DUNN: But see I don't--I can't understand why the bank wouldn't let them have it because they are not poor--it's not poor--it's not that they are poor risk, you know. They are not poor risk. But they were--what the bank would consider poor risk because her teaching job.

MULLINAX: Um-hm.

DUNN: She had--she had just had borrowed money to buy a seventy-five thousand dollar home. Said, they might not never pay for them or finish paying for them. Said but I know teachers that have. She has friends that have borrowed that kind of money, you know, to buy a home.

MULLINAX: When did she try to do that? Do you remember what year it was?

DUNN: It was back in the fall I think? In the summer.

MULLINAX: Of this year?

DUNN: '91.

MULLINAX: '91. Okay.

DUNN: Um-hm.

MULLINAX: Okay.

DUNN: Maybe '89 or '90, '90 or '91. I think it was--I believe it was '91 that she--

MULLINAX: Okay.

DUNN: --that she tried to do that.

MULLINAX: Okay.

DUNN: But she seemed to think that there was nothing in the world about being prejudiced, you know. She thinks that that's a problem.

MULLINAX: Yeah.

DUNN: And she said this is, this is on the highway property and it would be a good seller.

MULLINAX: Yeah. That's true.

DUNN: And since they have done so much to the house, you know, with a whole lot more or less to do. She was thinking it wouldn't be hard for a person that has the money or to get the money to buy it, you know. But 01:14:00she was seemed--she moved--she was very upset with them. And she is--I think is still upset with them because all of her life--she--she deals with the Garrard Bank. But she thinks we should move. I said, "But we owe the Garrard Bank money." So we can't afford to, you know, leave that bank. We have to continue on there--

MULLINAX: Right.

DUNN: --to repay--finish paying them.

MULLINAX: Right. Now in terms of buying your place? How did you buy your place?

DUNN: We got our place through FHA [editor's note: Farmers Home Administration].

MULLINAX: Okay.

DUNN: And she went to FHA but FHA wasn't lending money to buy farms then. Right through here now but I think they are going--going back to lending to tobacco farms. I think they are lending money to build houses. It's just-- I think I understand that correctly, but she went to see them. And she could have borrowed the--she could have borrowed the money from FHA if she wanted to build a house.

MULLINAX: Um-hm. What about your--your experience borrowing money then? Did you have any problems at all?

DUNN: No. We have never had--

MULLINAX: Any problems?

DUNN: --any problems I guess because we always paid back.

MULLINAX: Yeah.

DUNN: On time, you know, but we never had any trouble borrowing money. No, we haven't had trouble borrowing money.

MULLINAX: Um-hm.

DUNN: But I don't like to borrow, but sometimes you have to.

MULLINAX: Yeah.

DUNN: There are times when you--usually when a person wants to get them a nice home you have to borrow unless you've got somebody to give you--going to give you land and then help you pay. Buy the house--build the house too, you know.

MULLINAX: Yeah.

DUNN: And most folks want to build their own homes so they want them built the way they want it, you know.

MULLINAX: Right. Right.

DUNN: Of course, this house isn't the way she want it, but--it's--it's a good strong house. It was built back when it was strong. So they are going to make a lot of--lot of changes, you know, but they have got to get the payments down. They are going to wait until the payments are way down, you know, some then before they start that. Then they will do that, you know, but she wants to build--fix the upstairs real bad. But that's something you don't have to worry--but Jen is a person--she's pushy. She 01:16:00wants to get this--she wants to--she'll work very, very hard to get what she wants. So she's a very hard worker so, you know, it's just--it's not hard for her. I don't think it's hard for Jen to put two hundred and fifty dollars a month, because most of it she would spend it on Chase any way you know. So--that's money they can save. And they have to be saving now. They have to save more than they did, but now is the time to buy a home, while they are young.

MULLINAX: That's true.

DUNN: Um-hm.

MULLINAX: One last question I wanted to ask you. What's going to happen to your farm when you pass on? You and, and Arthur?

DUNN: Well, it goes to Janet.

MULLINAX: Okay.

DUNN: Um-hm.

MULLINAX: Have you made preparations for that?

DUNN: Yes, Um-hm. In our will.

MULLINAX: You have a will?

DUNN: Um-hm. And then across from them that's where his daddy left him. It was the farm across in front of us and that--everything we've got will go to her. And then I have some 01:17:00nieces and nephews that I would like to leave something to but I'll just instruct her to--and she will--she would give them what we wanted to give them.

MULLINAX: Right.

DUNN: Um-hm. The things we have--

MULLINAX: So you're making formal arrangements with her?

DUNN: Yes. Um-hm. Yes. Everything belongs to her, because she said--this child she have in May would be a boy she said well she was going to give a farm to each one of them. They can build them a home. I said Chase will probably be in--you don't know if they will want to stay around here. She said, "Well, I, I'll work on that to stay around here."

MULLINAX: Yeah. How much will she get then? Or what is the size of your farm at this point?

DUNN: Well, she'll have eighty acres I would say.

MULLINAX: Eighty acres just on your farm?

DUNN: Yeah. Both of our farms.

MULLINAX: And then you have--she has ninety-eight here?

DUNN: Yes. Ninety-eight acres here. She has ninety-eight acres here and she's very particular. She is very particular. She is--she is--Jenny wants everything to be perfect. Everything just so--just like--she's got a lot of 01:18:00that from me.

MULLINAX: Yeah.

DUNN: And but other than that, you know, that's, that's the way things are now. But everything is, you know, pretty decent now.

MULLINAX: She'll have a nice farm though.

DUNN: Yeah. She, she has a pretty--she has a--like she was upset last week. She--a friend of hers, teachers, she was supposed to have a baby in April too but the baby's head just started to growing and growing. And the arms were just growing longer and longer. And she was so upset and go in about it. And she had to go to the hospital and, of course, her water broke and she just, just had it--on out--it just destroyed it. The head was just growing and she was--looked like she was eight months pregnant. And then so--she was very upset--very upset with that--upset with it. She was her friend too. And she said, "Mama, I want to find a card to send her, but I don't know what kind of card." I said, "Well, rather than send the card," I'll tell 01:19:00you what she does do. She takes a lot of, a lot of ideas from me. She'll take a lot of advice from me. I said, "Jenny instead of sending a card why don't you just write a little note. And then you can put on the note just what you want to put on the note. And then maybe you say thinking of you or something that doesn't refer to losing her baby."

MULLINAX: Right. Right.

DUNN: And so I think she did that.

MULLINAX: Yeah. That's nice.

DUNN: And she's very prompt about sending thank yous and all like that.

MULLINAX: Well, we're about at the end of the tape here--

DUNN: Yeah. We've--we could take the baby to the--

MULLINAX: Well, thank you for--

DUNN: I think she has to go to--

MULLINAX: --doing this with me though.

DUNN: You're quite welcome.

[End of interview.]