Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History

Interview with Lois Moreland, February 5, 1994

Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries
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PRESTAGE: This is an interview with Dr. Lois Baldwin Moreland for the American Political Science Association Oral History Project. The interview site is Atlanta, Georgia. The date is February 5th, 1994. My name is Jewel Limar Prestage. This is tape one. Professor Moreland, if you don't mind, would you please tell me something about your personal background, that is, where you were born and if you don't mind, when you were born? Where did you attend elementary and secondary school? Just a little bit about your family and childhood.

MORELAND: I don't mind telling you when I was born. In fact, now that I have reached the age of sixty, I am very pleased to have lived so 00:01:00long, and some of that earlier vanity has disappeared. I was born in Washington, D.C. My parents are Mr. and Mrs. Gennis G. Baldwin. They are both living and still in Washington, D.C. I have one sister, Mrs. ----------(??) Baldwin Austin who, in her early married life, traveled around the world with her lieutenant colonel husband who was in the Air Force. She is now in Washington, D.C. I, uh, have two nephews and a niece from her marriage. I attended--I don't remember the name of that first elementary school, but it was just across the street from where we lived, and I started in kindergarten on my birthday. I was five 00:02:00years old. And I still remember that as I remember my kindergarten teacher. I thought she was just the most wonderful woman. Her name was Mrs. Washington. And she put us in different little groups and I think I was in the little, the first little group called Busy Bees. And, uh, that was really, truly a good word for us. I then went to junior high school which was Terrell Junior High and I--

PRESTAGE: Was that school named for Mary Church Terrell?

MORELAND: Mary Church Terrell, whom I met, got to interact with. I met Mary McLeod Bethune on many occasions, had discussions with them. Even spent, uh, one night on a retreat at Mary McLeod Bethune--not Mary McLeod Bethune's, uh, Nannie Burroughs, uh, School, uh, sleeping on 00:03:00the floor and I discovered then I did not like sleeping on a floor or camping out. The bugs bit too much. But I had marvelous opportunities because somehow I was blessed even then to be thrown in the company of persons who were later to become very renowned or who were at that time very renowned. I then went to Dunbar High School, which is now the famous Dunbar High School and persons who were interested in going to, uh, liberal arts, going to college generally, were directed to go there. And I attended that, uh, high school. I was the major of the girls' battalion which is now called the ROTC, but can you imagine I had on one of those, uh, belts and all of the military regalia and I 00:04:00was leading about two hundred people and, and it was marvelous. I loved it! And I, I just played almost every leadership role you could imagine in that high school. I was a thespian. Loved to be in drama. Won some oratorical contests. Was in the Honor Society. And from that, uh, high school, I was called into the principal's office one day, and asked if I would be interested in going to Sarah Lawrence College.

PRESTAGE: Let's stop just a moment now, and talk a little bit about Dunbar High School. It is a very famous institution. Could you share with us some of the famous alumni of Dunbar?

MORELAND: Well the one that I remember most that I, I must admit my memory for names is very poor, exceedingly poor. But Walter Fauntroy, 00:05:00I believe, was one year ahead of me, and my mother remembers these things better than I do. But she says that he used to come over and we used to study together. I, of course, remember very little about lots of things, but he is--and of course, he was the representative to Congress, um, the first one to Washington, D.C., although not empowered to vote. Eleanor Holmes Norton succeeded him, but she was in my sister's class. Among those, uh, persons, now I do remember that we were among the first wave, in my class, of black students to go to the newly integrated white schools. Now we aren't the first ones, but I remember there may have been about four or five of us who went away to these schools and one of them, I remember, went to Dartmouth I believe. 00:06:00What I remember about him was that he ate some seafood while there and died. That's a terrible memory. But my memory for people and their names it's just terrible. But there are many marvelous graduates from Dunbar High School. I just don't--I remember one of them. I think his name was Harold Banks. I may be wrong but I think he became a disc jockey in Washington. Some of them, I know, became doctors. I do not remember their names either. I'm terrible for recall.

PRESTAGE: If memory serves me correct, on one occasion, former president Ronald Reagan cited the accomplishments of graduates of Dunbar High School as an indication of, uh, what was possible.

MORELAND: Well, I'm glad that he did. There are many--it's a reputation. It has an historic reputation.

PRESTAGE: As you look back on that, uh, time in your life, what were 00:07:00the major experiences which helped you to shape your view of the world? That is, to, uh, develop your sense of self and your basic values?

MORELAND: Well, those things that helped to shape my basic values came first from my home. My parents are the ones who were instrumental in doing that. Both my mother and father, but particularly my mother who became my best friend. As I recall, on Saturdays for example, she would take my sister and me to the public library, which was, uh, situated in a segregated park. But she would pack a lunch for us, we would sit on the segregated side. I enjoyed drinking from the water-- the segregated water fountain. And we would go into the library, which 00:08:00was not very far from our home. I would read and read and read until I had read every fairy tale in that library two times--(laughs)--and I was on my third one. My father would bring home from his job copies of The National Geographic. We were exposed to many things that just helped, helped to shape me. There was a Howard University. Uh, not a Howard University, a Howard Theatre and on the weekends, probably on Saturday, too, we would go to Howard Theatre and we would see--we would sit in a box--and we would see people like Sammy Davis, Jr., Lena Horne, all of the, the greats that have now come through. Although it was a segregated time, we used to drive everywhere. Our father drove us to New York City. We went to the Statue of Liberty, we'd go--this was like a weekend trip or a day trip, sometime. We'd go to Philadelphia. We saw the Liberty Bell. We were exposed to many 00:09:00things. My parents are Christian, so we were brought up faithfully in the Christian Church. I was very active in, uh, Mt. Carmel Baptist Church which was pastored by William Howard Jernigan, very--and he was the president of the National Baptist Convention. And he took me under his wing so that every year I was a representative to this National Baptist Convention, where I always played some leading role in some pl-, --in a play. And my--we would take these long trips on the train so that I got to go to many, uh, states in the United States as a young child. So that I had Christian values, intellectual values, even international exposure very early because of The National Geographic. And I remember another magazine, Life magazine. I remember, believe it or not, the day I learned to read. And that was a result--

00:10:00

PRESTAGE: How interesting.

MORELAND: --my memory was much better then. I remember things. I don't tend to remember names of people. I remember faces. I can tell you what they did. But my mother used to read the funnies, the comics to me, and I learned to read that way, so I learned to read very early. And I remember saying to her, you don't have to read to me anymore, I can read.

PRESTAGE: Oh, how wonderful.

MORELAND: And my pastor, of course, was instrumental. My whole church in giving me that view. But it was the White House Conference, I believe, the National White House Conference for Children and Youth that I attended as the representative of Dunbar High School that I think made the most significant impact of my wanting to eliminate segregation. I found that, in my heart, I had no ill feelings toward whites. But that I got along very well with them, and that I wanted 00:11:00them to see that there was no difference between blacks and whites. I also remember my first true experience that made an impact on me in terms of being segregated. Now mind you, I'd been to the park. Never had felt that feeling of segregation. It was not until I went into a drugstore. Our daddy had taken us out driving as he always did on weekends, and my mother had a headache. I had to go into the drugstore because my father couldn't find a parking space, and get a Coca-Cola with a, with some aspirin or BC in it. Went in there and this--and I must have been about eleven years old and this person at the counter said, "You'll have to go down there and wait." I was so crushed. I was so hurt. I didn't go down there and wait. I ran back to the car. I had developed--(laughs)--a headache. I was sick, I 00:12:00mean literally sick, and of course we just drove away and went on back home. I remember, um, only one other time that I had that same kind of feeling and that was when I was the Spelman College representative to the Amer-, the Association of University Women. And when I was, uh, that representative--it was because I'd just come to Spelman and I had aligned myself with that association in Washington, D.C., and I was sent to Augusta, Georgia. I was forced to sit alone. Nobody would sit with me. Nobody would eat with me. There were spaces between me on the seats. It was not until the president of the association took me under her wing and invited me to eat with her and the other officers that I actually was with anybody at that meeting. 'Course 00:13:00I was the only black there. 'Course this was many years ago. But when I came back and I had to go on the bus, I was so sick. I had a splitting headache, an upset stomach. I had been sitting on the rear of the bus, at the rear of the bus because there was no other seat, not because I could not sit anywhere else. When my husband met me at the bus stop, he, uh, and he had been a medic in the Korean War and he got me home, he tied a scarf around my head to help get--take away the headache. I regurgitated--I was so sick because this was an extreme physical reaction to the hurt I experienced at my ostracism because of skin color. But at that meeting, when I talked and when I spoke, it was obvious that I had their respect. Nonetheless, I had been--I was ostracized. So I'm getting ahead of the game a little but it's interrelated in a sense.

PRESTAGE: It's, it's interesting that your two most traumatic 00:14:00experiences with segregation came first in your hometown, and then in the context in which you have spent most of your professional life. So that, uh, perhaps, that had something to do with the impact on you, because these are places that obviously must mean a lot to you.

MORELAND: They certainly did. I'm not sure about Spelman at that time. I was so brand new in terms of it. I, I--but that's a great observation. It's possible.

PRESTAGE: Were there any particular childhood experiences that influenced your decision to, uh, go into the field of higher education generally, or to major in political science in particular?

MORELAND: I never heard of political science--(laughs)--as a child. And even in undergraduate school at Sarah Lawrence, I had not heard 00:15:00of political science because Sarah Lawrence College, which I attended, is so non-traditional. They never used the words political science. I knew nothing about discrete disciplines.

PRESTAGE: Maybe we ought to just, uh, retreat a little bit here, and, uh, ask you how did you decide to go to Sarah Lawrence?

MORELAND: I decided to go to Sarah Lawrence, um, I, I think I had said that I had been called into the office and asked by the principal if I were interested in going, uh, to Sarah Lawrence, or talking to somebody about going to Sarah Lawrence. I was thinking about going to Radcliffe at that time. I had been interviewed and I thought that was where I was going. But I was talked--I talked to, um, Madelyn Delaney, who is a graduate of, of Dunbar High School, and who was, uh, 00:16:00a graduate of Sarah Lawrence. And she convinced me to go. She said, "It's so different, you will really like it. It doesn't have classes in the sense that you must take this, this, and this. You may choose what you want." And at that time, I wanted to be a linguist. I found I had facility in learning languages and I thought I would simply get a lot of languages and be an interpreter. Prob-, I didn't know where I would be an interpreter, but that's what I wanted to do. I also was interested, uh, in being a diplomat so I went to Georgetown, uh, and I was interviewed and they said, "Well you've got two strikes against you: one, you're black, and two, you're female. And there's no future for you." And now I entertain diplomats. (laughs) It's, it's ironic, but um, I, I, I found that--I'll tell you, it was fortuitous 00:17:00that I became a political scientist. It was while I was on the Howard University campus, after having graduated from New York Univers-, from Sarah Lawrence College and had actually enrolled at NYU. Before I attended the first class, I knew that was not where I wanted to go. I could not stand the living conditions up there so I came back home and I believe I had applied to Howard University School of Law, and instead of going directly to pick up my materials and I believe I had a scholarship, I walked through the main building on campus, and I met Emmett Dorsey. He is the reason I became a political scientist. We just happened to talk in the hall. I don't remember exactly how that happened. But during our discussion I said, "That's what I want 00:18:00to do." He said, "Well, all you have to do is just go over to that office across the street, take the College Board exam, and see if you can get a scholarship." I'd never had a political science course in my life, had never heard of political science. I'll have to tell you about Sarah Lawrence curriculum--(laughs)--but Sarah Lawrence is a marvelous school. It really helped to mold me. But I did go across the street, I took the exam. They gave me what we now call work study. I, uh, scored in the 25th percentile in political science. Never had anything like that, but I scored in the upper 90th percentile on the general. So I got a scholarship. And I told them, when I went into 00:19:00the admissions office, what had happened, and I don't remember the time sequence, but I told them as they were assigning me something about work load, I said, "Well, I have, uh, this, this, and this." And they said, "Well since you're so honest about it, you won't have to work." So what a blessing. But I then had to take all political science courses on the undergraduate level, along with political science courses on the graduate level. (laughs) So I had quite a load. But it's Emmett Dorsey.

PRESTAGE: As you, uh, look back at the Sarah Lawrence experience; did you have any special mentor or role models at Sarah Lawrence?

MORELAND: No.

PRESTAGE: Tell me, uh--(both laugh)--about the--

MORELAND: Well, now it was a great experience. When I say no, uh, if we mean by mentor--I'm not sure what that word means exactly. They- -there were no role models. There was nobody I really wanted to be like, pattern myself after, but I do know that I always wanted to be a 00:20:00teacher. (laughs)

PRESTAGE: Oh, very good. (Moreland laughs) Uh, how--what was the African-American enrollment like at Sarah Lawrence?

MORELAND: There were six African-Americans--(laughs)--at Sarah Lawrence. That was the most we ever had, as I recall, during my matriculation. And as I said, we were among the first wave, and there was no, uh, attempt for us to get together. As a matter of fact, we attempted to integrate so we did not get to know each other as well as we did other persons on the cam-, on the campus. But I became the president of the NAACP. I told you I was always just into things and leading and whatnot.

PRESTAGE: Okay. And, uh, if there were only six African-American students, then the membership of the NAACP must have been well integrated?

00:21:00

MORELAND: Definitely. (laughs) Mostly white students.

PRESTAGE: To what extent, if any, did you find race an impediment to, to your academic work as an undergraduate student?

MORELAND: The only impediment that came from work--from race in my work was my internal feelings about myself. I found that I had an inferiority complex very reminiscent of what the Supreme Court says happens to us because we are legally segregated. It's true. I felt I was the dumbest, the ugliest, and the poorest student on that campus. But I found that I was not. So that I really, somehow, had to get over that feeling of inferiority and I'm not afraid to admit that I 00:22:00had the feelings. I think that is one of the first things that one must do to get over it, is to admit that the feelings are there. I'd been so protected and isolated in Washington, that I never felt that I was often in an integrated situation, but being a minority in that situation where you live all day, you sleep all day, eat all day and you're about the only one, really makes you, you think about yourself. Plus, there are no black men there. And, and that compounded it. Being away from home when you're young, all of that compounded it. But, uh, I found that my--the students there thought I was very bright. In fact, they started coming to me to talk to me about things. And, uh, my--one of my best friends, uh, was the--is the daughter of the former publisher of the New York Post. Uh, my friend's name was Sally Backer. When we graduated, she wanted us to live together in 00:23:00an apartment in New York. The rent was four hundred and some bucks and I said, "I can't pay that," so of course we never--that was one reason NYU and you know I was thinking about that. But I used to go to her home on Fifth Avenue, oh, so frequently. I was just--on, uh, Park Avenue. This two- or three-story apartment with an elevator inside. Just exposed to such wealth with a live-in couple and the, the staircase, winding staircase. She let me put on these gorgeous robes to eat in. Oh, I was just exposed to all kinds of things. Fern Taylor, the daughter of, of Lord & Taylor. I was--or in that family if not the daughter. Just--they just exposed me to marvelous things. First time I heard of round beds with, with satin sheets. Now, mind you, this is--(laughs)--before this becomes common place. I had, I had some good experiences, uh, and actually was elected to be the dorm 00:24:00president. So that things, things worked out for me.

PRESTAGE: Right. The presidency of the NAACP, the presidency of your dormitory.

MORELAND: That's right.

PRESTAGE: Did you get a chance to participate in, uh, the drama activities there?

MORELAND: Well, I thought that I was gonna--going to be a dancer, too.

PRESTAGE: Oh. (laughs)

MORELAND: When I, when I took my--you can take only three courses a year at that college. And I was told you cannot take three language courses. That was totally out, so that just was the end of my desire to be a linguist. Plus, when I went into my class, there were only two of us in the Spanish class. This young woman had traveled all over the world. She had already had seven years of Spanish. She spoke Spanish fluently. I had only had two or three years and our first assignment was to translate Lord Byron's poetry into Spanish. I never even heard 00:25:00of Lord Byron, much-- (laughs)--less translate--

PRESTAGE: --the poetry--

MORELAND: So.

PRESTAGE: How, um, would you characterize the general environment on that campus? Were there any overt racial incidents that you can recall?

MORELAND: None that I can recall.

PRESTAGE: Okay. In retrospect, how satisfied would you say you are now with having chosen that particular undergraduate experience?

MORELAND: I couldn't be more pleased. I think it helped me to develop 00:26:00the kind of inner strength that I need to fight the kinds of battles that I've had to fight. I went into New York City alone on an internship, late at night, during the week, doing economic kinds of things. I had to learn to sit at Horn & Harter (??) all by myself eating dinner. So I've learned to be independent, travel all over the world alone. I've learned to be disciplined. We had to read--I think I used to have something like about four to six books a week to read. I had to learn to write papers. In my freshman year, I had to write three papers per week. I had to learn to think independently because of the donning system. I had to tell my teacher what I had learned in the book. Uh, I think that that--and I had to be introspective. It also made me question a great deal, my own religious beliefs and my own political beliefs. My religious beliefs were challenged all over the place till I got to the point where I really wouldn't discuss it 00:27:00because they were so heated. But it made me look at my own beliefs to see why did I really believe what I did. I asked my mother when I got home, "Why didn't you teach me there was a possibility there isn't a God?" She said, "Because there is no possibility." (laughs)

PRESTAGE: And that was the end of that.

MORELAND: (laughs) And that was the end of that. My, my politics, I think, became more firmly established because we used to discuss it. We--I learned a great deal about arguing. I learned a great deal about thinking analytically, about questioning everything, about not taking things for granted. Uh, I just think it was a marvelous experience for me. I do not recommend it for everyone.

PRESTAGE: You indicated that, uh, you, uh, literally, uh, walked into political science.

MORELAND: Literally. (laughs)

PRESTAGE: Walked into political science. Uh, but was that immediately after completion of undergrad school?

MORELAND: Immediately after completion of undergrad school in the sense 00:28:00that I graduated in May. I had gone to New York University but did not attend the first class. It was in the School of Education because I knew I wanted to teach, but nothing had really crystallized and I thought about law and I thought--and as I recall, I was going over there to go to my class, or pick up a fellowship or whatever it was, but I never made it over there. My life was just, just changed in an instant.

PRESTAGE: Tell me a little bit about Emmett Dorsey, uh, also known as Sam Dorsey by a lot of his friends.

MORELAND: Yes, yes.

PRESTAGE: Uh, tell me--apparently he had a considerable influence on you at the master's degree level. Tell me a little bit about him.

MORELAND: Emmett Dorsey was a tall, overpowering man. Big. Spoke in a 00:29:00booming voice, and there I met him in the hall, and I didn't perceive him that way. I, I perceived him that way later when I got to know him. He, he said, "You're gonna have to take all of these courses on the undergraduate level but you are not going to receive any real credit for them, but you got to take them." And he taught me, I don't know how many courses, simultaneously with the, uh, master's degree level courses. I recall that he was, he used profanity all the time. He was very intimidating and I, at first I didn't understand why he used so much profanity. Nor did I understand why he seemed to take great delight in intimidating anyone. I did find that after I, we took the, what are our exams? Comprehensive examinations, I happened 00:30:00to hear him say, "You know that g-d woman, Lois, made the highest score on the exam?" When that happened, things changed. I also found that if I stood up to him, he wasn't intimidating. He just--that was just his manner, so that I didn't feel intimidated. I recall that, in my introductory chapter on my master's thesis, I had to rewrite that introductory chapter thirteen times.

PRESTAGE: Let's pause a minute now, while I turn the tape.

[Pause in recording.]

PRESTAGE: As soon as, as soon as the tape is turned.

[Pause in recording.]

PRESTAGE: This is tape two of the American Political Science Association Oral History Project interview with Dr. Lois Moreland by Jewel Prestage, February 5th, 1994 in Atlanta, Georgia. Dr. Moreland, 00:31:00at the master's degree level, you have indicated the consternation suffered by the chair of the political science department when he found that that woman had, in fact, uh, done the best comprehensive examination. In the process of your undergrad, of your master's degree program, did you, uh, find that gender was an impediment to your work at Howard--there at Howard University?

MORELAND: No I did not find that gender was an impediment; in fact, I never even thought about gender. When I, uh, heard Dr. Dorsey say that about me, I thought, well, what a surprise. I'm glad it happened that way. I had no idea he was thinking that way. Somehow we just don't 00:32:00let some things ever enter our minds or touch us. At that time, I was targeting race. I was not targeting gender. And political science is a predominantly masculine field. It was even more so then. I remember being the only woman in the master's degree program, but I didn't think much about that. As I said, some things just don't touch us.

PRESTAGE: Were there any particular authors or outstanding scholarly works in the discipline that had a major influence on you at that level?

MORELAND: I think that the authors of textbooks more than, uh, persons outside doing, doing specific writings that scholars would read, had 00:33:00more influence on me. V. O. Key, for example, was important to me, but I consider him a type of textbook--(laughs)--author. Um--

PRESTAGE: The Volume on Southern Politics was certainly very important.

MORELAND: Um-hm. Um-hm. And just about--I don't remember all the authors' names, but anything in political philosophy. And I would go to some of the, uh, original works. Uh, I remember I became very interested in natural law. I studied Leo Strauss. Um, I'm trying to think of--oh, Edward S. Corwin. They--

PRESTAGE: The President, Office and Powers.

MORELAND: (laughs) Yes.

PRESTAGE: Yes.

MORELAND: Uh, those, those made an impact on me.

00:34:00

PRESTAGE: You were also, uh, doing your work in a department that had been largely influenced by Ralph Bunche. By the time you got there, to what extent was his influence still felt?

MORELAND: Still felt because I got to meet him. We are members, he is deceased now, of the same Pi Sigma Alpha chapter. We came into the chapter at the same time, the very first chapter at Howard University. In fact, I have a picture of my sitting there. I'm not sure whether I'm next to him or not, but I may be. I might be next to Dorsey, but I was on the front row. There weren't that many--(laughs)--of us. But I even got to know him, and it's, it's just so amazing that we now have the Ralph Bunche Institute, and as a young woman really, what's--maybe like twenty-one, thinking--it's just amazing to be in the company of 00:35:00all of these people, and reflect now. I even got to know Thurgood Marshall. And to talk with him and to work with him, uh, when I got the job with the NAACP. And Robert Weaver. There've just been such influential people in my life. It's amazing.

PRESTAGE: In the, in the Howard experience, did you perhaps--I know that there were no women who were in the department of political science as such, but did you meet other influential women scholars at Howard?

MORELAND: Well, to be honest, I don't recall that I did. I don't recall that I did. My, my teachers were all male. Uh, Evron Kirkpatrick had an impact on me, the first executive director of the APSA. We got to 00:36:00be pretty good friends. We kept in touch with each other for a long time. It may be that women didn't have an impact on me because there were no women. That's makes a lot of sense to me. (laughs) They weren't around.

PRESTAGE: Well, it's pretty difficult to have, uh, influence if you're non-existent. (laughs)

MORELAND: Non-existent. There just were no women.

PRESTAGE: And it's also very interesting that, uh, you, uh, never really perceived of gender as an impediment.

MORELAND: Never.

PRESTAGE: It was just, uh, just what was?

MORELAND: I never felt it as an impediment. In fact, I think I received very good treatment, special treatment sometimes, because of being a woman. I've even seen that happen on boards that I'm a part of. I've, 00:37:00I've--if, if I've been discriminated against because I'm a women, I'm too dumb-- (laughs)--to perceive it. (laughs) But I, I see it now more than I ever did then. But my perception when I had problems was that it was a problem basically of being black. Though the person at Georgetown said you have two strikes, first you're black. I know when a person looks at me, the first thing they see is my skin color. If they get beyond that, then they see I'm a woman.

PRESTAGE: Okay. Uh, how and when did you reach a decision to go on to study for the Ph.D.?

MORELAND: Again, it's Emmett Dorsey. Uh, he, he, of anybody I think, receives credit for really, uh, taking me under his wing if you can imagine his taking anybody under his wing and giving guidance and direction. I felt--well, I loved to learn, and I just hadn't learned 00:38:00enough. I just loved to learn. And I'm trying to remember now the sequence. I did--he suggested, well why don't you get the Ph.D. or maybe I suggested I wanted a Ph.D. You know, memory--but anyway, there's never any problem as to who said what, but he did suggest that I go to the American University. I said, "Well fine." Oh, while I was at Howard University, I was subsidized all the time by outside funding, the same thing at Sarah Lawrence. And the same thing happened at American University. But he, I, I taught while I was at Howard University, so I had a teaching career there. I think that was very special because I think that put me in touch with the career that I really wanted. Do you recall, I said I always wanted to be a teacher, 00:39:00and I learned early on I did not want to be an elementary school teacher because I had taught bible school and that just sucked too much emotion out of me. All the little children wanted a piece of Lois Baldwin. You know how children love you and they just want--

PRESTAGE: Taught vacation bible school myself.

MORELAND: Taught va-, and--and I just knew I didn't have enough of me to share that way. But Emmett Dorsey is the one. I loved to learn. I was constantly reading. I just could not absorb enough. I had found the field I liked. I liked the field. I just liked the field. Plus, I could do something with it.

PRESTAGE: Did you go straight from the master's at Howard to the Ph.D. program at American University? Or did you stop out a while?

MORELAND: It--I didn't stop out long. As I recall, I took a job with the NAACP shortly after I got my master's. I guess it must 00:40:00have been a matter of months. But I had applied for the Ph.D. degree fellowship. I worked at--for the NAACP as the youth field secretary in the Northeastern region. So I had a marvelous job. I told you at Sarah Lawrence I was the president of the NAACP so I had marvelous connections with the, with the main office in New York, the headquarters. I knew Roy Wilkins. I, uh, knew Gloster Current and I even wrote a speech for Gloster Current as I--he reminded me all the time that I wrote this speech for him. I worked there in the Northeastern region but I did not like working in Connecticut and those, those states. I--one, because of living conditions in New York 00:41:00City were just conditions I did not like. I could not have my car there, which I had received for a graduation present. (laughs) I know that sounds terrible, but--and then I had--oh I had horrible living conditions. I don't need to, to go into that. Nobody would want to live in New York if they had to live like I lived. But, uh, and the reason I needed a car was because I lived across a dark park, and I did not want to have to walk through that dark park late at night. I would have felt much safer--(laughs)--in my own car. So I had very pragmatic reasons for wanting that. But I got transferred to Atlanta, Georgia. In the process of being transferred here, I worked with Ruby Hurley. She had a great impact on me. This is the first woman who comes into my life that I see, um, uh, as, as holding a real leadership role and 00:42:00doing something very significant. Besides the women like Mary McLeod Bethune or Nannie Burroughs or Mary Church Terrell in my childhood. I simply had no come across any other. And I worked with her very closely. I got to meet Medgar Evers. I did, uh, the kind of work that was dangerous here. I had to hide in the back seat of the car as we went to places in Georgia. Uh, I was with Ruby Hurley on the Emmett Till murder. Oh, all kinds of marvelous experiences. Uh, my parents did not like what I was doing. They thought it was too dangerous. So when I received word that I had received this scholarship to--this fellowship to go to the American University and work on my Ph.D. degree, I took it. My parents were overjoyed that I was leaving this dangerous work. (laughs) And I met my husband in the meantime, got engaged in a matter of a few months, uh, whirlwind falling in love. 00:43:00We've been married thirty-five years. Uh, we did not stay together the first year because I was away studying on the Ph.D., so I did a lot of things early. I had this marvelous job, teaching at Howard while I'm working, then had the--couldn't do it long but learned an awful lot about teaching and most of my students were older than I was. Some of them were even veterans and when we get off the tape I'll tell you a funny story. (laughs) Uh, when I went back to the American--when I went to the American University, I met the second woman who was significant and she was the dean of the School of Government and Public Administration, Cathryn Seckler-Hudson, who took me under her wing too. I was the only woman again. She was the only woman--(laughs)--around. And, uh, she was just guiding me. She--I had marvelous opportunities. 00:44:00Some of my opportunities turned into jobs. I got--I worked in the, um, Legislative Reference Service of the Library of Congress, in the state law division. And I started writing letters and, and reports for Congress persons. I, uh, I started out as an intern with Senator Vance Hartke and he said, "You're no longer an intern. You're now my, uh, legislative aide." And I wrote speeches and attended committee meetings on Capitol Hill, just in a very blessed and privileged position. Had marvelous--

PRESTAGE: All of this was going on while you were--

MORELAND: While working on my Ph.D.

PRESTAGE: --studying for the Ph.D.?

MORELAND: That's right. (laughs)

PRESTAGE: Oh, how exciting.

MORELAND: Very exciting, so.

00:45:00

PRESTAGE: You, uh, you, uh, remember how long it was from your initial enrollment at American University to the, uh, completion of the Ph.D.? Dissertation and all?

MORELAND: I'll have to recall. I completed all course work in record time. In a year and a half, I had finished all that course work. I was then ready to take the comprehensive exams. By that time, I'd gotten married, and had moved to Atlanta, Georgia to stay with my husband. Went back--oh, and I got a job teaching at Spelman before I took the comp. So this is very brief, this is like, what, two years? I'm not counting the time because it's all just like a matter of course. You know, you asked me about being a woman, I hadn't paid any attention to that, just as I had, I didn't pay attention to time. But I went back, 00:46:00I took my exams. Then I had to take my language tools. I had to learn two tools. I finished that quickly. But then I got pregnant--let me see. I guess I had, had, uh, given my dissertation topic and gotten all of that approved. But when I got pregnant, I got sick, and I just had to put my degree on hold. But I had then advanced to candidacy. I had gone over all the hurdles, dissertation topic approved. It was a matter of, of writing. I got sick, and I was teaching, so now was--

PRESTAGE: That was a very busy time in your life.

MORELAND: I did many, many things early on. I had wonderful experiences. Some I haven't even recounted, but I think I must have--I had planned to have my Ph.D. by twenty-eight, but I didn't make it. I'm not 00:47:00sure when I went back to writing, but I remember I finished my degree when my daughter--I took my daughter with me to American University and lived in the dorm. My parents would keep her during the week. I would keep her on the weekend. We would run around the track on the weekends. Had, had to keep her interested. She must have been--I got my degree in '68. Took me--okay, so we'll have to count. I stopped--I started working on that dissertation, I guess, again by the time she must have been three or four. I just wasn't able to get back to it.

PRESTAGE: The--

MORELAND: As soon as--

PRESTAGE: --research indicates that women generally take longer to 00:48:00complete the Ph.D., but they don't take longer to do the course work. (Moreland laughs) It is the necessity to stop out, if you will, in connection with family generally that extends the time. And so you seem to be a typical case in that--

MORELAND: Typical case.

PRESTAGE: --but along the way--

MORELAND: Yes.

PRESTAGE: --you seem to have had such enriching experiences, experiences that are uncommon in the lives of graduate students. Who were some of your major professors at American University?

MORELAND: I hesitate--

PRESTAGE: Well, let me ask you first, who was your dissertation advisor?

MORELAND: He was the dean--he had taken Cathryn Seckler-Hudson's place- -Roundtree, Robert Roundtree is his name. And he was also the dean of 00:49:00the law school because I wrote in the area of constitutional law, so he, he was special. He had these two degrees and he was a high-powered person and highly respected and I was very pleased that he was the chair of my committee because he required a lot and the committee knew that if I got past him, I think they respected what he, he said.

PRESTAGE: Alrighty, now when you went back to American University as a wife and mother, did the university award you any kind of financial aid to assist you? Or did you have funding from some other source? From Spelman, perhaps?

MORELAND: I think I had some assistance from the United Negro College Fund. I think Spelman had given me some money to finish that. The 00:50:00only real expense was living in that dormitory and getting all of the--you know how many times you have to get your materials typed and retyped and then bound and all of those things and send it to all of the dissertation committee members.

PRESTAGE: And, uh, for those who are busy on dissertations now and complaining, I remind them that when I did my dissertation in the fifties that you used carbon paper and you had to have four copies and the original, and if--when there was one typo, you had to correct that one typo five times. And, uh, generally they look at me in awe and say, "How did people, how did people go to graduate school then? How 00:51:00did you do all of that then?"

MORELAND: Yes, we had more hurdles, I think, in some ways than they do.

PRESTAGE: Yes. Yes. But the dissertation typing and the dormitory expenses, uh, were the major financial problems then?

MORELAND: Yes and maybe I used a little for transportation? I'm not sure. That may have been a factor, but--

PRESTAGE: As you recall, you had enough in the way of a financial aid package to, uh, sustain you without having to stop and work?

MORELAND: That one year. But I had a husband who was supporting me. I didn't have that much money. Oh, no. (laughs)

PRESTAGE: In other words, you were--

MORELAND: I couldn't have done it just as a UNCF fellow, no. (laughs)

PRESTAGE: You were on a, uh--what is your husband's name?

MORELAND: Charlie Moreland.

PRESTAGE: You were on the Charlie Moreland Scholarship.

MORELAND: I was on a Charlie Moreland Scholarship and--

PRESTAGE: All right--

MORELAND: --and he reminded me, too, when I returned and had passed the, 00:52:00uh, oral exam, he was out of town, but he had roses waiting for me, and he said, "Welcome back, Mrs. Moreland." Although I was now Dr. Moreland. (laughs) And he smiled, you know, a little bit.

PRESTAGE: All right. Now, let me ask you about the post-Ph.D. period. Please give us a kind of chronological overview of your professional career, uh, prior to--I'm sorry, after receiving the Ph.D. You have been at Spelman College. That's been the primary locus of your work as a professional. Tell me a little, tell us a little bit about Spelman.

MORELAND: Well, Spelman is a, a college that was founded by two white missionary women in 1881. It started in a railroad car. Um, well, 00:53:00not initially. And it has now grown to about two thousand students. They're all women. Um, it is a premier school. It's considered the best buy in the Southeastern region. We have many--

PRESTAGE: Barring none?

MORELAND: Barring none. We have many accolades and, uh, we are sought after by the best African-American women from all walks of life. We have more than, uh, three thousand applicants for about four hundred positions in the freshman class. When I came--Spelman has now its first African-American woman president. We have about twenty majors. It is a liberal arts college. Over half of our, our graduates go--well over half of our graduates go on to graduate school. I don't 00:54:00remember, maybe 70 or 80 percent. I just don't remember all of the statistics. But when I came to Spelman, we did not have a political science department. I was a member of the social sciences department, and I came as a lecturer. Uh, when I came as a lecturer, I, uh, was later told that we could then have the other social sciences move out of that department so that I was given the task of, of forming a political science department. So I founded the political science department here at Spelman College.

PRESTAGE: Well, uh, madam founder, let's just take a moment here and turn the tape. I believe we're nearing the end of tape two and as soon as we turn the tape, we will continue. Uh, we will begin with the 00:55:00founding of the department at Spelman.

[Pause in recording.]

PRESTAGE: This is tape three of the interview for the American Political Science Association Oral History Project with Dr. Lois Baldwin Moreland, February 5th, 1994, Atlanta, Georgia. This is Jewel Prestage. Dr. Moreland, you indicated that, uh, you had the experience of joining the Spelman faculty before there was a department of political science. I'd like to ask you how the political science program has changed during the years that you've been here. You've been teacher, departmental chair, academic dean, director of international affairs, the director of the Ralph Bunche Summer 00:56:00Institute. All of these, in all of these roles you have remained very active in the development of political science at Spelman. So you are not only the founder, but the developer of political science. Uh, tell me, about how many courses have you personally taught?

MORELAND: I think I have taught about seventeen or eighteen courses.

PRESTAGE: Of these, how many did you create?

MORELAND: (laughs) I created most of them, if not all of them. Let's see. Of, of all those, I have--I created all of those. There are some additional ones, too, that have been, uh, added as additional 00:57:00faculty have come on, particularly in the area of international relations. I have not taught international relations courses. And when I say I created them, I mean that I conceptualized them, I wrote the course descriptions. I then sought people who would actually teach those courses, and it is primarily in the area of international affairs, international relations and comparative politics that this has happened. But in terms of American things, I taught most of it. In terms of things that are interdisciplinary, I've taught all of it.

PRESTAGE: Now, um, in your tenure at Spelman, since you were the person who founded the department, you have been the chairperson of all of the faculty members who have come to the department. Do you have any idea of--as to the number of faculty members that have passed through the 00:58:00department during your tenure here?

MORELAND: We have had three faculty members who have remained here with me for a minimum of thirteen to twenty years, so that we have a very stable faculty. In addition to that, we have a faculty member who has been with us now for three years, who is on tenure track, but we had-- who is one of your students by the way.

PRESTAGE: Yes. Professor Desiree Pedescleaux-Andrews.

MORELAND: Yes and we are--

PRESTAGE: Southern University bachelor's degree, Yale Ph.D. I'm very, very proud of Desiree. I'm also very happy that she has the privilege of working under your tutelage and mentorship.

MORELAND: Well thank you. Well we are very pleased with her, and she's progressing very well and we expect her actually to be awarded tenure 00:59:00when the time comes. But there have been at least, I'd say, four other faculty persons who have been here in the department, but who have gone on to other places. And we also have had some part-time faculty because we simply have not had the monies, as you know, to retain enough full-time faculty.

PRESTAGE: Among those faculty members who have, uh, come and gone, how many were male? Uh, has that been, uh, an interesting aspect of this job?

MORELAND: Each one was male. (laughs)You didn't know you'd get that answer, did you?

PRESTAGE: I certainly didn't, no. (laughs)

MORELAND: Each one--and it was--

PRESTAGE: Sounds--

MORELAND: And this, and this--

PRESTAGE: ----------(??).

MORELAND: Yes, and, uh, this does not indicate any bias, though some may think it is the case. But we have an all-female department. And they 01:00:00come through because they are the best of all the candidates.

PRESTAGE: Alrighty. As a, um, woman's college, what special advantages does Spelman have for its students?

MORELAND: The major advantage I see is that in accord with its mission of developing black women leaders, an all-women's college provides the best opportunity for a woman to develop into a leader. She--there can only be women leaders. All the roles are occupied by women. They learn to speak up. They learn to be assertive. They learn to think. They learn to initiate. All of the things that, uh, that are expected of women, the opportunities are here.

01:01:00

PRESTAGE: You have had a number of outstanding graduates of the political science program who had gone on to become faculty members at Spelman and other places. To become lawyers and, uh, as you, uh, reflect upon that, is there any list that you have of students, uh, with whom you had a special mentor relationship?

MORELAND: Yes, we do have a list, and, uh, that is going to be published to some degree in our new political science department brochure. And that is going to be released in the fall. But I am pleased to say that one of our graduates who, uh, I consider very, very special, Dr. Margaret Lee, who is now an expert on South African politics, and is 01:02:00the first American to author--I didn't say black American or African- American--the first American to author a book on SADCC. She did that several years ago. She is a tenured professor at Tennessee Technical, uh, University and she is now at Stanford on leave doing work there, teaching there, but now is interested in coming to teach at Spelman, and is among those who, uh, are being interviewed for a position that we have in international relations.

PRESTAGE: I am, in fact, familiar with Dr. Lee and her work. That is--that's really wonderful. Uh, one of the problems that, uh, women's colleges have, which has been cited in the literature, is a kind of ambivalence of mission in the early years. I would imagine that the 01:03:00women's movement and all of the revolutionary things that have happened with regard to the roles of women and the way in which these changes have an impact on women's motivations and aspirations. That that ambivalous--ambivalence is no longer there; that is, what are you really trying to produce? Are you trying to produce a good wife and mother? Or who would be a--an appropriate partner for a very successful man? Are you producing women who aspire to achieve in their own right? I take it that if that were once a--if there was once ambivalence about that, that that's no longer the case at Spelman, and with Spelman students.

MORELAND: That is certainly not the case with Spelman students.

PRESTAGE: All right.

MORELAND: To my knowledge, Spelman women have always aspired to achieve. 01:04:00I can think of no time except when it was first founded, uh, for the newly freed slaves who, uh, were--and the mission of the school was different to some degree, and they were not in the business of producing black women leaders, we have always done that. We had persons who, uh, were so instrumental in initiating the Civil Rights Movement, Herschelle Challenor for one. And the person who is now so close to President Clinton, Marian Wright Edelman who founded the, uh, Children's Fund, Defense Fund. We have a long history of, of women who have achieved significantly. Um, and I do apologize because I do forget names, but Herschelle for example, is now the new dean over at Clark Atlanta University for the international studies school on the 01:05:00graduate level. So that's a very important thing.

PRESTAGE: That's very important. I believe Herschelle also was a very high level official with UNESCO.

MORELAND: Absolutely.

PRESTAGE: And was stationed in Paris for a while. She's a really very, uh, outstanding Spelman woman.

MORELAND: She is.

PRESTAGE: You always get in trouble when you start--

MORELAND: --naming--

PRESTAGE: --with a list.

MORELAND: --that's true.

PRESTAGE: But, uh, at least I'll take some of the heat off of you. (both laugh) Citing some of the Spelman women who, with whom, uh, whose achievements I am personally familiar with--

MORELAND: Another one--

PRESTAGE: --because of my work.

MORELAND: --another one is Veronica Biggins who now has the position of personnel officer in the White House. And the list goes on and on. We have persons who are judges all over this country. Legislators here in the state of Georgia. Just many, many who have come through this 01:06:00department as a matter of fact. Although Herschelle and Marian didn't. They happened to, uh, have been seniors the year that I came. So that I did not have the pleasure of teaching them, but I did get to know them because I was very active in that Civil Rights Movement too. When students were being jailed.

PRESTAGE: Share a little bit of that with us.

MORELAND: Well, one of the things that happened then was--about me personally, I was asked by Julian Bond, who came over to our house, if I would be their advisor. I was pregnant, and my husband said, "No, this may be the only child we have." I thought about that. It turned out it is the only child that we have, and I was very sick, and he understood that being sick in jail was not the place I should be. But, um, during that time, I advised many of the students who were, uh, going to jail, counseled them, uh, helped to tutor them, uh, gave them assignments. 01:07:00There was much controversy within the Atlanta University Center about the role that faculty should play. Whether students should be exempted from classes, whether there should be exams given, et cetera, et cetera. But I was very supportive, worked a great deal with them.

PRESTAGE: That was a very interesting, um, that was a very interesting period and Atlanta was a very interesting place to, uh, really live and work at that time, um, because of the location of so many of the organizations and personalities involved in the civil rights, uh, uh, thrust at that time. Um, as you look back on that particular era, how 01:08:00would you summarize it, in, maybe in two sentences?

MORELAND: Two sentences. I think that that the community was split in terms of the leadership as to, uh, the role that, uh, we should play, uh, in the Civil Rights Movement, and then the leadership coalesced so that we all got behind it and supported it. If I might say just one other word, I found that the theory that was used by the United States Supreme Court in terms of the sit-in demonstrations being brought under the First Amendment, protection of freedom of speech, rather than under the Fourteenth Amendment's due process of law clause, was established here by our own attorney, Walden, whom I knew very well, and we even discussed this very new approach. It was a significant change in terms 01:09:00of finding protection under the First Amendment, which gives priority protection to rights found under that amendment rather than to those rights found under the Fourteenth Amendment. So I was very pleased that he took that position, and that the Supreme Court used it. And remember now, constitutional law is really the thing that I like, and so we were right on top of that.

PRESTAGE: Not only, uh, was the Civil Rights Movement an experience in citizenship activity for you, it was also part of your scholarship.

MORELAND: Absolutely. I, I was what I called myself the scholar activist. I was involved in everything. Integrated every kind of board, all kinds of new places where I was the first and the only.

PRESTAGE: Oh, very good. Let's shift a little bit now and talk about your work in professional organizations. In terms of membership, 01:10:00office holding, special projects directed, program participation, and I know that this is a rather impressive list of activities. And, uh, would you just, uh, share with us some, uh, part of, uh, of that particular aspect of your career?

MORELAND: Well, I was active in the American Political Science Association. Uh, I was, uh, a member of the--a charter member on the APSA Committee on the Status of Blacks in the profession; a charter member and first treasurer of the National Conference of Black Political Scientists. We were all in there together. I had to give up my real, uh, role in NCOBPS when I became the acting dean here at Spelman. I just couldn't hold the office anymore, and my responsibilities began to proliferate. I am, uh, a charter member 01:11:00of the American Association commission's project on the Status and Education of Women. I was appointed to any number of things here in Georgia, most of them political kinds of, uh, activities.

PRESTAGE: I believe you were also active in the Southern Political Science Association. I believe I recall that you served on the Chastain Award Committee and on the nominating committee.

MORELAND: I certainly did and I was on the national council of Pi Sigma Alpha, that's our honor society and, um, I was on the Commission on Liberal Learning of the Association of American Colleges, Harry S. Truman Scholarship Foundation's regional review panel. Associate member of the Hastings Center. I've been a consultant for the National Endowment for the Humanities for the Department of Health, Education 01:12:00and Welfare as a member of its selection committee, um, continuing member of the American Association of University Women, a Danforth Associate. I am--

PRESTAGE: So, uh, I think it's fair to say that you've been busy--

MORELAND: I have been busy, yes.

PRESTAGE: --in both academic and public service positions. I, um, also recall, in the 1960s, when there was a certain amount of, uh, effort put forth to bridge the gap between the historically black colleges and the predominantly white institutions in the region, I, uh, recall a program at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, which, uh, was directed by Professor Donald Matthews, now at--I believe at 01:13:00the University of Washington, and the late James Prothro. Uh, to what extent did you, uh, have that same kind of experience here in Atlanta with the predominantly white major research universities?

MORELAND: Well, uh, when I first came to Spelman, we--this was not civil rights activity per se, but we did form, um, a committee which attempted to bridge the gap, uh, between Agnes Scott, Emory University, all of the Atlanta University Center, uh, colleges in a non-western studies program that was then founded by the Ford Foundation and lasted for any number of years. Uh, we formed lasting relationships that I even called upon in the Ralph Bunche Institute, so it was a fundamental foundation way back then in the early sixties.

PRESTAGE: All right. Let's talk a little bit about the Ralph Bunche, 01:14:00uh, Institute. As you know, the institute was started in 1986--

MORELAND: By you.

PRESTAGE: --and I did have the privilege of working with that institute for four years. Uh, it was a cooperative effort between Southern University, Baton Rouge and Louisiana State University, Baton Rouge. And we did that program for four years, and, uh, after which the program moved to Atlanta University and has been largely under your tutelage since then. I believe we're nearing the end of this tape. Let us turn the tape and, uh, begin the next tape with a discussion of the Bunche Institute.

[Pause in recording.]

PRESTAGE: This is tape four in the American Political Science Association Oral History Project interview with Dr. Lois Baldwin 01:15:00More-, uh, Moreland, February 5th, 1994, Atlanta, Georgia. This is Jewel Prestage. Dr. Moreland, um, I'd like to ask you a little bit about your work with the Ralph Bunche Institute and then a little bit about your own scholarly work, your research and publications; and essentially, uh, what it is you have on your agenda for the future. Also I note--I know of your work with the Democratic Party, and I'd like to just sort of raise the questions for the rest of this interview in those basic areas. Tell me a little bit about your experience with the Ralph Bunche Institute. Has that been an as exhilarating 01:16:00experience for you as for me?

MORELAND: It was indeed an exhilarating experience and continues to be, and just like you, I continue to hear from some of those students and the--about the marvelous things that they are doing now. I think this is one of the, the best programs, one of the most important programs that the American Political Science Association is sponsoring because it identifies some of our best black students who will be, who will then go into the professoriate and turn out marvelous publications that will help the rest of the world, not just our local community. I think that some of these students who come to us never thought about teaching. It's not just, do I think this? I know this is the case. And as you know, one of the primary goals of the Ralph Bunche Institute is to demonstrate to students that the teaching profession in higher 01:17:00education, political science in particular, is as salient to their interests as being, for example, as they say, a lawyer, which is one of the things that they all think about. Or going into business, making money that they can be just as satisfied teaching others as we are.

PRESTAGE: Uh, teaching, research and service are the three major responsibilities for those of us in academe. I--we've talked about your teaching, from course development to, uh, the actual classroom work. We have talked about your service to the profession, your service to the community, and, uh, I'd like to, uh, ask you a little bit about the classic work, White Racism and the Law. Tell me a little 01:18:00bit about how that, uh, got started and, uh, how you ended up choosing that as the focus for a full-length volume.

MORELAND: As I've said before, I was very much interested in helping our people in breaking the bond of segregation and liberating us from our fetters and demonstrating that we're all God's children, equal human beings. And I, I was enamored of the law and felt that the constitution, the foundation of our system, was the way to attack this problem. And so my sub-field in the discipline became that of American constitutional law. So I started out looking primarily when I did my work at private discrimination because we had eliminated problems 01:19:00basically of legal discrimination in terms of, of, um, state action and finding that that was unconstitutional through the Fourteenth Amendment. And so we were entering into anoth-, another area of segregation that was more difficult to attack, and that is discrimination on a more subtle level, that by private persons. And I wanted to seek a way that we could eliminate racial discrimination constitutionally and so I purported a brand-new kind of theory, uh, which was that a state's inaction constitutes state action. Now this before this becomes a very popular concept. Before people even talked about it in those sense, in that sense. My words weren't quite like that, but that is the concept. And I remember one of my best friends who, uh, uh, was an attorney and later became a city attorney, disagreed with me on my 01:20:00thesis. She said, "That is absolutely impossible." She says, "It has no foundation." I said--and so I tried to demonstrate yes it does, if the court can make the law this, then the court can change the law from what it is to something new. It's nothing sacrosanct about that. And she now agrees with me. She came around to seeing it my way.

PRESTAGE: It must be wonderful to be vindicated in that way. (Moreland laughs)

MORELAND: Yes.

PRESTAGE: Now you are involved in a rather new research interest, uh, reproductive technology. Tell me a little bit about that.

MORELAND: Well, what I want to do here is to eliminate gender discrimination, again by looking at the constitution. So I'm really looking at public policy in terms of the law, not just in terms of political action, but trying to attack it on a constitutional basis. And so in preparing myself for this area, I actually went to, um, 01:21:00Massachusetts Institute of Technology one summer to learn about those reproductive technologies. I wanted to learn about in vitro fertilization. I mean, there are all kinds of philosophical ethical problems, technological problems that are intermeshed with concepts of constitutional law. It--we just can't get away from this new way of looking at the constitution. So I learned about in vitro fertilization, surrogate motherhood, abortion techniques, all of those things so that I could begin to understand. For example, as I, I look at the issue of abortion, as I look at Roe against Wade and I began to really understand what viability means. And, and we begin to see the court retrenching from the concept of viability as being the basis for, uh, termination. That's really what I understand is--was to be the tri-semester approach. But I am very much into this now. Uh, as we 01:22:00move from racial segregation, we begin to attack another area which is gender discrimination, so that's where I am now.

PRESTAGE: I'll be looking forward to more of your work, uh, as you start to, uh, do more to, uh, look at public policy in terms of the law in that particular area. Um, we've talked a lot about you as a professional. And we've made some slight references to, uh, the donor of your fellowship--(Moreland laughs)--that permitted you to complete your dissertation, your husband. How have you handled the multiple roles of wife, mother, professional, citizen, uh, church woman? This 01:23:00has, uh, been, uh, quite a juggling act. Uh, would you tell us a little bit about how you've done that?

MORELAND: Well, you know, Jewel, I don't think I'm any different from any other African-American woman. I think that our women have had to do this all their lives. When I was growing up, I just assumed I would be a career woman. My mother told me, "You have got to learn to be independent, to take care of yourself." So it was never a question in my mind about having a career. I thought the hardest to do would be to find the right man, so that having a career was never a problem. Our women have always worked. They may not have worked in careers as you 01:24:00and I do, professional careers, but they were professional home-makers for whites in this country. They were professionals in cleaning up the business of the, the buildings they were, you know, that kind of thing. So, yes it was a juggling act, but one of the things that I have, I had God's grace, I had good health. I had a good husband, all very essential, and I did have some help at home because my husband gave us the money to have somebody come in and help to do the cleaning. And I had help here on Spelman's campus because we have a nursery school. So our daughter was always here. I could come to work and bring her to the nursery school, and I could leave, uh, the school and just pick her, pick her up, take her home with me. I happen to think that being a teacher is one of the best things a person can be, and be a woman. 01:25:00I think it's marvelous. I think we're natural teachers. Uh, the, the times that we have are wonderful. I happen to love being in, um, politics. I mean, to me, that's just sort of like a first love because it's like being on a mission to make things better. I become, I'd become or became--I can't remember when I was not very active in the Democratic Party. I've just always been involved.

PRESTAGE: But, now, now, there's pretty wide consensus that motherhood and nurturing are natural for women. There is some consensus that this carries over into teaching, but I don't think that there's ever been much argument put forward in favor of the proposition that politics is a natural activity for women. So tell us a little bit about how you got active in the Democratic Party in Georgia.

01:26:00

MORELAND: I was--I've always been interested in getting this burden off our back. That's the way I started. And so, uh, I felt that politics, those people who make the laws are the ones who can change the laws. And so I wanted to be right there where the laws are made. And of course, I had to start on those boards and those places where I could be elected. I, uh, became active in the Third Ward. Now, you know, that's really starting at the bottom, isn't it? But that's the way you start. And I moved on up to the executive committee. And then I, I began to make friends with people who were in the Democratic Party. And because there's so few, at least there were so few blacks, and I'm not sure if there were other women. You know, I never paid much attention to that, uh, because I was so eager to eliminate racism that I was then appointed to the Jury Commission of the Board of Registrars 01:27:00and Elections, um, the--I did say the Executive, the Executive Committee. I, I was a special staff aide for President Jimmy Carter in the Democratic National Committee. In 1976, I got to, I actually worked for President Carter when he was the governor and he actually-- can you believe he called me in for special advice on special problems?

PRESTAGE: Yes, I can imagine that. (laughs)

MORELAND: I, I just couldn't believe it, but he would. He would call me in, just me, one on one. And, um, and I would talk to him. He, uh, appointed me to the state board of Offender Rehabilitation. Uh, I was the chair of the Governor's Council on Human Relations Subcommittee that actually selected the first person who was in charge of human relations here in the state of Georgia. And even Governor Carl Sanders appointed me to the state Economic Opportunity Advisory Committee. And can you believe that Governor Lester Maddox appointed me to the 01:28:00Commission on the Status of Women? And I am now serving on the, uh, Georgia Commission on Human Relations. So I've never given up my activities in--(laughs)--politics.

PRESTAGE: That's wonderful. That's wonderful. Uh, teacher and practitioner.

MORELAND: Right.

PRESTAGE: All right. Let me just ask you a few, uh, questions here to, uh, to wind up our interview. Overall, how do you view the future of our profession and discipline, including the future of African- Americans and women in political science?

MORELAND: Hmm, that's a heavy question. I to predict--how do I--under our present leadership, in the execu-, of the executive director's position, I have a very favorable, uh, prediction. I think that 01:29:00Cathy Rudder is moving in exactly the right direction to promote our interests as I see them. She has been very supportive of the things that we have asked for in terms, particularly in terms of the Ralph Bunche Institute which is the way of replenishing our discipline, which is where, which is the way, which is our future to the degree that we are successful in recruiting the best, the brightest, and the best of all peoples in this discipline. We will have a favorable future to the degree that we're not successful; we shall fail. I do think that we must become more multidisciplinary as we learn, as we teach, because 01:30:00there is an interconnectedness between disciplines. I think there was one time, uh, when we were more cognizant of this, particularly in the area that I study and that's constitutional law, when we began to look at behavioral approaches to understanding things. I'm not talking about the quantitative aspect of it, but the sociological, economic, historical; bringing all of that together and understanding it. In terms of women, I'm not sure that we have made the same kinds of efforts. I know that we do have more women in graduate school now than we have had before. So I think that that's a favorable future too.

PRESTAGE: Alrighty. Uh, Professor Moreland, you've had a very outstanding career.

MORELAND: Thank you.

PRESTAGE: You've received many fellowships, honors, research awards, um, right now, you are the director of a program focusing on international 01:31:00concerns. Could you tell us just a little bit about that program here at, at Spelman?

MORELAND: Well, this program began in 1989, so it's very new. It is called the International Affairs Center at Spelman College for the Atlanta University Center Institutions. So we exist not only for Spelman but for all of these institutions. It has actually meant a diminution of my teaching responsibilities in the political science department, and ultimately my having to relinquish the chair of the department after these many years because it was impossible to do both things. President Johnnetta Cole of Spelman College asked me to 01:32:00actually become the founding director of this center, and we have been, indeed, very blessed. We are soft money institution so we have brought in monies to sustain us, the Ford Foundation, the Woodrow Wilson Foundation, the MacArthur Foundation, and even Mrs. Alison Walton Leland, a former student of mine, and--

PRESTAGE: Who is currently--

MORELAND: --who is currently--

PRESTAGE: --on the board of regents for the university with which I'm now affiliated.

MORELAND: Wonderful.

PRESTAGE: Quite an interesting woman.

MORELAND: She is special. She, uh, has given us a hundred ten thousand dollars for our endowed scholarship that is named in honor of, uh, her former husband who is now deceased, Congressman Leland, and you know about him. But we have a variety of programs targeted at both faculty and students. The program is designed to internationalize both the 01:33:00curriculum here and throughout the center, and to internationalize the center itself. Now that is a big program. We are targeting career opportunities for our students so that they will understand that there are new areas in which they can prepare themselves. And we've got a diplomatic fellows program; we have a summer institute called Globalizing the Curriculum, uh, Geopolitical Studies in Foreign Languages. We have a pairing relationship with the School of Advanced International Studies at Johns Hopkins University. We have a Peace and International Studies program. We are having a summer institute, uh, well, we're running two summer institutes in 1994, but the one I'm talking about now is the one, uh, that is co-sponsored by the Interfaith Hunger Appeal with Spelman College, and President Jimmy Carter is participating, so that we have a variety of programs. There are internships, and we have a group of students from all over the 01:34:00center called the Trailblazers, and one of those Trailblazers has just received an internship with the state department with its embassy in Paris for this coming summer, and we have had an, uh, such internships granted for the embassy in London and I've forgotten the one last summer, but it was in a Latin American country. But the student could not go because she had to complete her requirements for teaching certification. But now she is, uh, in Japan under the JET Program, teaching for one year, and has been given deferment at SAIS. When she returns in September, she will go to the Johns Hopkins University.

PRESTAGE: That's wonderful. Now, uh, Dr. Moreland, while you still have a lot of your career left, at this particular stage in your career as a political scientist, what do you regard as your most rewarding or satisfying experiences?

01:35:00

[End of interview.]