Interview with Wendell H. Ford, July 11, 2000

 BIRDWHISTELL: Well, we had a little technical difficulty last time, as I recall.

FORD: Yeah, you think--you think they--you got that worked out?

BIRDWHISTELL: Uh, nothing's ever for sure in this life.

FORD: Tell me about it .

BIRDWHISTELL: I think we're--I think we're in pretty good shape. So, how are you doing this morning? It's July 11th, 2000.

FORD: Oh, doing all right. Uh, I can get a little--I thought we were going to get some rain, and I wouldn't have to water the flowers this morning, but I decided that I'd better water them, because we don't get any, uh--it looks like rain, we don't get any. So, I water them, it looks like I did the right thing.

BIRDWHISTELL: It rained hard in Lexington last night.

FORD: It did?

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah

FORD: Well, we didn't--we didn't have anything here.

BIRDWHISTELL: Woke me up raining.

FORD: Well, you all need it pretty bad, don't you?

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, yeah. We still need rain, still need rain. Um, I wanted to start out this morning, we're going to get back into that late '50s, early '60s part of your career with your indulgence. I wanted to start out with a question about Owensboro. During this period, it actually came up in that campaign for 00:01:00the State Senate that during this period, when interstates were being planned and built all over the country, Owensboro missed the interstates. What, what was the reason for that, do you think?

FORD: Oh, I--I know the reason, uh, it didn't satisfy any of the local people, particularly Hugh Potter at WOMI, who had his editorial of the air was every day. And it was about, uh, uh, I-64 and, uh, West Kentucky Parkway.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And so, they wanted the West Kentucky Parkway closer to Owensboro, because of the population, and that sort of thing. Well, the decision was made to put the West Kentucky Parkway where it is, because I-64 was coming through, and the corridor had already been developed just north of us. So, what would've happened in the engineering's decision was if you'd had the toll road closer to 00:02:00Owensboro, and we'd use that until 64 opened up, that was non-toll. So, instead of generating traffic out of Owensboro on the toll road, it would go--because they had to pay, would go up to 64.

BIRDWHISTELL: I see.

FORD: And so, that was a tough decision. And, uh, it was made under Bert Combs, and I was in his office at the time it was made. Didn't make Owensboro very happy.

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm.

FORD: And, uh, they were, uh, right, uh, sensitive about it.

BIRDWHISTELL: That's right.

FORD: And one of the things that we always fussed about too, we were the third-largest city, you know, in the state, I guess, and the fourth-largest county. And, uh, you couldn't find us on, uh, the road signs anywhere. So, one of the first things I did when I became governor was to put up Owensboro at all of these intersections, Elizabethtown, before you get in there, and all of that. And people decided that was--that, uh, that was appropriate and, and adequate. 00:03:00But, uh, we had, uh, Mrs. Louise Curtley (??) here, who was a state representative, a, a lawyer, very active woman. Her son is county attorney here now, and been county attorney for, I guess, 20 years. And but she always fought to get Owensboro's name on--built on the traffic signs, and that sort of thing. So, it was--Owensboro's kind of hard to get to. And we're beginning to develop a system here now, the Natcher Parkway, the Audubon Parkway, West Kentucky Parkway, uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: I think that's the Ford parkways. (laughter)

FORD: Well--well, they--Wendell H. Ford West Kentucky Parkway.

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: And then now, it--it appears with this new bridge coming--going across here, that, uh, Indiana has decided they'd go ahead and, uh--uh, a little late blooming on that one. But, uh, I think they purchased the, uh, right of way, or 00:04:00are in the process of it, put a four lane from, uh, Owensboro up to 64.

BIRDWHISTELL: That'd be nice.

FORD: And, uh, we're--we're in the process now of taking the Wendell H. Ford Expressway around here on up further east, so that you can bypass Owensboro and hit the bridge.

BIRDWHISTELL: How is that going to work? That, that extension of the expressway?

FORD: Well, what you--what it does, it goes out and comes in, I think, uh, I'm not sure of the exact location, uh, just, uh, east of, uh, the Green River Steel Plant, comes in there.

BIRDWHISTELL: I see.

FORD: And then that picks up that four-lane facility there, and goes on up to Maceo to the bridge, and you go across. So, what it does, it brings the traffic--it doesn't help anybody stopping in Owensboro, uh, as on the downside, as far as the economy of the community is concerned.

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm.

FORD: But as far as enticing the traveling public, they just come from 00:05:00Nashville, to Bowling Green, to Owensboro, and on up to 64, can go on up to Bloomington, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And so, it, uh--uh--it--it should open up pretty well. But so, we're beginning to, uh, pick up. We even have a four-lane facility, which I had a hard time trying to build between Lewisport and to Hawesville. We put in two new lanes, and left the old lanes there, and made it a four-lane facility. And people just didn't want to give up their property in Hawesville, and we had a hard time convincing them that we at least start--and we're beginning to piecemeal good sections of road on Highway 60 between here and, uh--oh, I guess we call it Tip Top at Fort Knox.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: So, uh, and then you've got--I worked out the two bridges, uh, with, uh, uh, Doc Bowen, who was governor of, uh, Indiana.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: The one at, uh, Hawesville, and then the one at Brandenburg. And, uh, they agreed to build the bridges. And, uh, put toll on them, but now tolls off both of them. And, uh, all we had to do was to build the, uh, entrance on this--on the, uh, south side of the river to those two bridges. That's opened up territory pretty well, too, you come from--

BIRDWHISTELL: I went back that way last time, up to Hawesville--

FORD: You did?

BIRDWHISTELL: --and up to 64?

FORD: What did--you took, uh, oh, you went--

BIRDWHISTELL: To sixty--

FORD: You went--you went up to, uh, Hawesville, went across the bridge--

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: --and took 37 to 64, and then straight on into Lexington?

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, yeah, I like--

FORD: That's the way I go to Louisville.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, well, that's a good--

FORD: Yeah. Well, I go to, uh, Lexington, I go down to the parkway, and take Bluegrass on in.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, that's the way I normally go.

FORD: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: I just mix it up sometimes.

FORD: Well, that's good.

BIRDWHISTELL: If there's some place I haven't been before. (laughter)

FORD: Yeah, well, hey, if you've got plenty of time, take Highway 60, you can go up to Fort Knox, that's, uh --

BIRDWHISTELL: I like that drive.

FORD: That's interesting. And we used to have, you know, Indian Lake up there that was, uh, right attractive. And Hilltop Restaurant up there on the hill, and, oh, it's--

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, another one of the things that, uh, is good about being governor is that you can have an impact on the infrastructure of the state.

FORD: It is, and, uh, you have to be, um, uh, uh--you have to be pretty thick-skinned--

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: --to try to put in a, uh, program that is systematic that you're beginning to open up areas. Uh, one of the things that I look back on that I--you know, you make mistakes, and, uh we had a, uh, study made on community colleges.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And the study, Bechtel, I think, was--I'm not sure if that was--you know, as they go back 30 years.

BIRDWHISTELL: I understand.

FORD: But, uh, the study was that we were close to developing too many community colleges. We--it would be a financial drain on the state.

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm.

FORD: And we had to be careful about it. Well, under those circumstances, I didn't, uh, go for a community college here.

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm.

FORD: And, uh, when this--when we did get one here, and we opened the doors, we were the third-largest community college in the state. And you see how it's growing. And it is a good, uh, community college. I regret the University of Kentucky's still not associated with it. And I'm not sure that I'm right, or the other side's right. Only time will tell that. And the same group that made the study on the community colleges went with our port authorities.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And if you notice, now, up and down the Ohio River, from my tenure in office, we have a lot of uh, uh, riverport authorities. We've got one here, for 00:09:00instance, that's doing very well, and then one down at Henderson that seems to be doing very well. The one at Paducah, you know, brings a lot of steel in, and, uh, they--uh, and then you've got the, uh, Kentucky Lake, and then, uh, uh, the Tennessee Tombigbee now that's finished that, uh, takes a lot of river traffic. So, water is very important to, uh, this state. And I'm not sure we've taken full advantage of it, but I don't know what else we can do. The Kentucky River has always been a fascination for me.

BIRDWHISTELL: How come?

FORD: It's a beautiful river.

BIRDWHISTELL: That's for sure.

FORD: And, uh, Scotty Baesler, bless his heart, when he was mayor, and you were having water problems, tried to work out an arrangement with several counties. Seemed like to me 16--15 or 16 counties, to try to have some kind of a water 00:10:00association, because he could see that the water problems were there.

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm.

FORD: I ran into the Red River Gorge problem.

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter) Yeah, that's right.

FORD: And, uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: That's right, we'll talk about that one.

FORD: That was--that was, uh, uh--and we had an agreement. I think maybe I told you about that. We had an agreement that, uh, Cooper and Nunn agreed to move the dam several miles downstream, and that they would go ahead and build it. Well, we had also got them in that agreement to increase the dam, I believe, two feet.

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm.

FORD: And that two feet would be enough water, uh, that when it was needed down, uh, stream for Lexington, and Lawrenceburg, and Frankfurt, and all of those communities, that, uh, there would be sufficient water there. They would just have to call on it, pay for it, and that was, uh, uh, an arrangement that was made. Of course, you know what resulted from that, Julian, uh, decided he 00:11:00was going to save the, uh, uh, something Sycamore association, two trees growing together up there, you know? And we've got more human pollution in Red River Gorge now, and nobody's looking after it, and it's an eyesore, really. And the water would've stopped the flooding, and would've given--we wouldn't be having the problems in the--in our second-largest city, Lexington, today.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

FORD: But, uh, now they're thinking about--you know, a water line from Louisville to Lexington. They're thinking about all--hell, if they'd gone ahead and built that dam, and they said it'd ruin you politically for it, well, when I ran, uh, for the US Senate, Marlow was very much opposed to building the dam, and I had gotten caught in--the agreement of Nunn and Cooper. And, uh, I--I was for it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

FORD: And I lost the, uh, Red River Gorge precinct by three votes.

BIRDWHISTELL: Really?

FORD: Yeah, 99 to 96.

BIRDWHISTELL: Wow! (laughter)

FORD: Yeah, you know, I think that was right, but three votes--

BIRDWHISTELL: That's funny.

FORD: --is all I lost that precinct by. So, that salved my hurt ego a little bit that I didn't lose that precinct so bad. But, uh, that was something that needed to be done, and, uh, I wish I could've done it, but, uh--and we--we worked awful hard on swapping land around up there, you know, and giving the Na…the National Forest people some land, and we bought some from others. And we worked out something that was generally agreeable. But never did uh--of course, never did build the dam, and we don't have the water, and we've got real problems.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: I understand, uh, Terry, that uh, they use the--10 times the daily flow of the Kentucky River, that means you suck it in at one end of town, and put it 00:13:00out the other end of the river. So, that's 10 times the daily flow of the Kentucky River.

BIRDWHISTELL: Wow.

FORD: And, uh, uh, I guess, uh, uh, Toyota uses a lot of water, I guess, and, uh, I don't know how--where they get theirs, but it came from, I think, Lexington's supply.

BIRDWHISTELL: I think it might be Kentucky American's.

FORD: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: I think it might be. Well, we'll come back to that Red River Gorge, because golly, that was a--that blew up.

FORD: --(coughs)-- Yeah, it did. It blew up in my face.

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: And, uh, some others, and I felt sorry, we had, uh, some awful nice young people at the time. Uh, when I'm talking about young, I'm talking about thirty, thirty-five, that were out explaining that to the people. They would have town meetings, and they would--and they took a pretty good beating.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And then to help me to defend the position and turn around and lose it all was not uh, very happy.

BIRDWHISTELL: And UK ag professors got involved, Dean Barnhardt got drug in.

FORD: Oh, we got a lot--got a lot--

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: Got lots of hide taken off in that one. Of course, Dad said when they tear the hide off of you and it grows back, you're tougher.

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: So, I guess uh, it got a little tougher during that episode.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, your dad knew something about that.

FORD: He did, he did.

BIRDWHISTELL: That's for sure. Let's go back to that, uh--to your role in the Combs Administration, and just touch upon some things that, uh, we talked about, uh, Earle Clements, we talked about some things like that last time. What did you think of the, uh, uh, campaign or the, uh, decision making, and the effort to put the sales tax in place. Uh, as an insider watching--watching that 00:15:00develop, how did that--how did that sort of come about within the Combs Administration?

FORD: Well, one of the things Bert Comb wanted, Bert Combs wanted to do, and I started out in Appalachia back in the mid-'50s.

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm.

FORD: He wanted to open his area-- been born and raised in Clay County, living in, uh, Floyd County, Prestonsburg, knowing all of the needs of eastern Kentucky, he wanted to make a contribution to that during his term, because he knew he only had four years. Um, he also had, uh, a son that, uh, had, uh, some problems, and he was--he, he had me working on, uh, legislation to separate the mentally ill from the retarded.

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh, really?

FORD: And we--that's when we took the--closed the dungeon up on the hill there in Frankfurt, where we--what we called it, the dungeon. And so, it was, uh, the 00:16:00courts were just putting them all in the same place. And basically, they were county courts. And so, uh, that was one thing that, uh, Combs wanted to do. And the other one was, of course, education. Those three things, uh, were a driving force for Bert Combs. And uh, the only way he could expand education, and build new buildings, and get rid of one hou…one-room schools that we still had at that time, all of that, was to have the money to do it with. And so, uh, the sales tax, then, was about the only way that you could generate the kind of money dedicated to education that you needed. The other was the, was a bond issue. Of course he did, uh, bond issues as it related to roads. He did bond issues as it related to park system. And both of them, you can look at 'em back now, and they were the right thing to do. And so, it was tough inside to try to 00:17:00take the heat from the anti-taxes, even your own people who were loyal, and supportive, just--were just crying because we were trying to put on sales tax. So, when I came in, if you recall, I took the tax off of food, medicine, clothing, farm equipment, all of that, and, and we put it on severance, severance tax on coal to make up that, which was a pretty hard bill for some of our coal operators to swallow.

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm.

FORD: But, 80% of that severance tax was paid outside of Kentucky, because most of their coal was shipped to other places.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

FORD: And it was not enough, at that time, to, uh, to uh, uh, cause them any real problems, as it related to bid on coals for utility, and that sort of thing. So, that was a tough one, you know, I had to, had to resurrect that sucker in the uh, uh, legislature. And it hurt, uh, some, uh, representatives 00:18:00from coal mining that, uh, voted for it, in Muhlenberg County, for instance uh. My good friend over there, Bill Paxton, uh, he, uh, he sweat pretty hard, but I made him Commissioner of Highways in my last--and he straightened out a big curve from downtown Greenville, or Central City, I forget which it was now, and, uh, he kind of got back in good graces with--with his people over there! --(Birdwhistell laughs)-- But, uh, but Combs, uh, they just said that you just don't know what's behind those pearly blues. And that meant his eyes.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: They were--they were blue eyes. And, uh, he, uh, was smart, and foxy, and, uh, he was, uh, one who could, uh, stand political pain, if I can use that term.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, that's interesting.

FORD: Yeah, he could stand political pain. And he always had something he wanted to do to kid somebody.

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh, really?

FORD: And he may keep it in his wallet, a little saying or something, that he would keep it for months just to be able to use it at the appropriate time.

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: And then, Combs had another way of working, and I tried that myself. Combs would call X in and say, "I want, uh, you to look this up. And I want to look at the--how, how can I get this done?" Then he'd call Y in, and Y, he'd say, "I want you to look this up, and I want you to see how we can do this." He had one attorney there, and I can't think of his name, but we called him Rubinoff. And, uh, he was, uh--he had glasses on, smoked cigarettes all the 00:20:00time, about like me, and --(coughs)-- he was one of Combs' uh, uh, real uh, thinkers, and Combs depended on his legal advice, uh, and uh, constitutionality uh, opinions. And so, you know, But Combs uh, Combs always, uh, he--he surprised me on the morning after the election, he had us all that worked in headquarters up to have breakfast with him. And he called me in the other room and said, "Wendell, I want you to go to Frankfurt with me." And I looked at him, and it was news to me, because I was--I'd already had my suitcase packed, I was getting ready to head for Owensboro. --(Birdwhistell laughs)-- --(coughs)-- And, uh, he, uh--I said, "Well, what in the world do you want me to do?" He said, "Well, I've asked Bob Matthews to be my administrative assistant, I want 00:21:00you to be his assistant. I want you to kind of meet people, I want you to see that we, uh, return calls, I want you to see that we answer letters, I want you to kind of run the office. And then when people come up there and Bob's busy, I want you to visit with them, and I want your desk right inside, right next to his office." And so, I came home, and, uh, talked to Ms. Ford, and it was kind of hard for her to agree to. And, uh, Daddy was just 110% for it, you know, of course, being politically-minded, and me working in the governor's office--

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: --that sort of thing.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, that sounded good to him.

FORD: Yeah. And Mother was very reluctant. She just didn't like politics, because it was already getting a little rough, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And you could see the bitterness that was developing in some folks. Even back then, there was, you know, the factions were--they--they worked hard, they 00:22:00didn't have all kinds of money like you do today.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: But uh, the factions worked awful hard against each other. As it was hard to bring them together. And the factions were basically in the Democrat Party.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: It was awful hard to bring the Chandlerites, the Clementsites (??), you know, they--so it, uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: Those factions were real.

FORD: They were real, they were real, they were--they weren't anything, uh, uh, fictional. And, uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: They had history.

FORD: Yes, they did. And, they--they--and, uh, the history of Kentucky is probably developed by those factions. Which way we--whoever went the way we went.

BIRDWHISTELL: Certainly in the 20th Century.

FORD: Yes, no question about it.

BIRDWHISTELL: The 20th Century political history of Kentucky is tied to those--

FORD: Yeah. Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: And, you know, people trace your roots back to a certain faction.

FORD: Well, what I tried to do is that, uh, I--I, uh, tried to bring them all 00:23:00together, but it was kind of hard to do. You know, the Combs people were awful hard to--the Combs faction, and those who were for Bert, awful hard to get them to come to the table after the primary.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: It was, uh, not an easy thing to do. It was, uh, Fancy Farm. You know, that's from May to August.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: It was Fancy Farm before we put things together. And, uh, uh, Combs and I flew an airplane from Louisville, I guess, to, uh, Fancy Farm together. And, uh, he was not bitter about it, in my judgment. Uh, it was his friends that were so bitter about it, and he was trying to protect his friends, rather than himself. And uh…

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, yeah.

FORD: So, it, uh--it became a little bit, uh, hard for me to agree to some of the things he would hope I would do. You know, he didn't demand them, but some of the things he hoped I would do.

BIRDWHISTELL: And you said you'd do the best you could I assume.

FORD: That's right. And, uh, I told him I would not, uh--I would not oppose him, but I would not propose them. And if they, uh, had a project, and they bid on it, and when you got to the bid, why, you know, that's--that's part of it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And so, uh, I didn't--it was, uh, it was a little bit sensitive and-- But it worked itself out, and, uh, we had a good time. (laughter) We had, uh, Tom Yule (??), and Christine Johnson, who, uh, you know, sang in Carousel.

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm.

FORD: She's from Owensboro here.

BIRDWHISTELL: Hm.

FORD: And Christine's just a fine lady, and a good voice.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And they wrote that song in there, whatever it is for her. And, uh, Tom Yule, his mother lives here--lived to be well over 100, and uh, Tom--they tranquilized a little pig, about a 30- or 40-pound pig, about 30 pounds, I guess. And Tom, uh, sang a song, "Sweet Pig Of Mine." (laughter) It was funny as the devil. --(Birdwhistell laughs)-- But the tranquilizer wore--wore off the pig. And Tom was trying to hold the pig and sing, and he couldn't do it, and finally had to give the--let the--give the pig up at the armory there in Louisville, let the sucker run off. (laughter)

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: So, we had some good times. And the girls around here, uh, I call them girls, I had to be careful about that (sniffs) because, uh, we--the husbands 00:26:00call their wives the girls.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: You know?

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And, uh, but they made, uh, uh, pock uh, pocketbooks out of various and sundry things, and sold them, uh, the tie people here made ties, you know, it's just--it was--it was a--a volunteer, which--which, you know, and they made, uh, uh--had material with Ford on it, you know? And--and the little, uh, high school students would dress up, and march in parades, and do all of that kind of stuff. And, uh, women would sew to make the things for them, and they would have little auctions around. And Gene would go to tease. And it, uh--uh, it--you--there was some camaraderie in that campaign --

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: --and it comes back to, uh, Terry, whatever any of us want to say, about whether I was good, bad, or indifferent, that my association in the Jay…with 00:27:00the Jaycees was a nucleus out there that nobody knew I had.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And, uh, I made uh, an effort, and probably was the right one, it is now, I wasn't sure at the time, that I didn't want anybody in my campaign under 36, because that was the cutoff stage for the Jaycees at that time.

BIRDWHISTELL: Hm.

FORD: And so I tried, and anybody who was a former Jaycee that was associated with me that wanted to help in the campaign, They could, others could work and do what they want to, but not take any position in the campaign, unless they were already, uh, exhausted roosters, I think we called them at that time.

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: So, it, uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: --it worked itself out. And trying to be honest, and not destroy an organization that meant to much to you.

BIRDWHISTELL: That, that's an interesting point you're making about that relationship--part of the relationship/

FORD: It's, uh--that's, uh--and the friends I made then are still there.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: Oh yeah, just Jack Razor (??) at Mount Sterling, and Zee Enix at Murray, Frank Wagner down at Benton. You know, you can just name them.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: Just all over. Uh, Barkley Sturgil up at Prestonsberg, who's in a law firm with Combs ---

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: --was for me, running, and then Combs announced, and he dang near cried, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter) Talk about a rock and a hard place. (laughter)

FORD: Yeah! And so, he had to be for Combs.

BIRDWHISTELL: Had to.

FORD: There's no question about it. And I understood it. He called me and told me what he--what he had to do. And what Combs had told him he was going to do, you know? And so, it was, uh--it was tough on some folks.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. You know, even though, uh, Combs would later on lose to you in that, in that, uh, historic primary, his--his reputation continued to grow.

FORD: Oh, it did, no question about it. And, --(coughs)-- Bert Combs was a 00:29:00good lawyer.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And uh, one of the uh, losses that the, uh, judicial system had was when Bert decided to leave the bench and go back and run for governor again. Uh, he was important to the judicial system. In my judgment, was, uh, an individual that was well qualified, and could've served on the Supreme Court.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And so, he had, uh, the legal background, he'd been judge before, uh, he ran for governor the first time, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

FORD: And then he went to--to the 6th Circuit Court, which is the next step to, before the Supreme Court. And I thought he had--and I think, uh, uh, we missed the--the country missed, uh, a golden opportunity. But, you know, the judgment was made, and you have to do what you have to do.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

FORD: And sometimes, that's not, uh, the easiest, uh, and it 00:30:00doesn't--sometimes, it doesn't turn out well.

BIRDWHISTELL: You know, in the--we talked about this a little bit last time, and when you were running against him in '71, we'll come back to this in more detail. But you raised the issue of, uh, John Ed Pearce writing his speeches, and then writing the editorial talking about how great they were, and--and is part of Combs', uh, reputation and his legacy built on that great rapport he had with the press?

FORD: There's no question about it. Uh, uh, Combs had Paul Jordan, who was very close to him, and he would have him over to, um, uh, the mansion just to eat and have some drinks together, just sit around and talk. And, uh, Clay Wade Bailey --

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: --uh, and Combs, you know.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And, uh, what was the old man up there, uh, he wore glasses, smoked a pipe. Uh, was at the Capitol Building, wrote for the Courier-Journal for years. Oh, and he and Combs, uh, uh, just had kind of a--their chemicals mixed, you 00:31:00know, very well.

BIRDWHISTELL: Not Cy --------(??)

FORD: No, no, Cy would always pick on him every once in a while, but there was one attor--one lawyer that, uh, he--that, I mean, one reporter that he didn't like at all. That, uh, really got after him hard.

BIRDWHISTELL: Let's see there was, uh --

FORD: Aw, shoot.

BIRDWHISTELL: --Harwood.

FORD: That's it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah?

FORD: No, no, Dick Harwood was one of them, but Dick left, if you remember, and went to the Washington Post.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, yeah, I interviewed him up there.

FORD: And so, that--they called him "Black Death."

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: And, uh, but this other one was, uh, I can see his face now, his eyes right down on his nose, uh, hm, hm.

BIRDWHISTELL: You'll think of it.

FORD: He lived over in Lawrenceburg, I think.

BIRDWHISTELL: OK.

FORD: But he was in, uh--but he would work for the Courier-Journal, and out of the Frankfurt Bureau. But anyhow, yeah, Combs had--with an exception or two, 00:32:00Combs had awful good, uh, relationship with the--with the, uh, media. And particularly, the Binghams.

BIRDWHISTELL: Now, since you knew Bert Combs and Bill Clinton so well, did you find similarities in those two men at all?

FORD: No.

BIRDWHISTELL: Not at all?

FORD: No.

BIRDWHISTELL: Because they're both smart.

FORD: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: And they're both great with people.

FORD: Yeah. But, uh, Clinton was--Clinton is smarter on his feet in talking and answering a press conference.

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh, really?

FORD: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh.

FORD: Combs, uh, uh, would not, uh--Combs would be reluctant to say what he thinks, or to plan--or to work something out.

BIRDWHISTELL: More cautious?

FORD: He's more cautious than, I think, Clinton is. But Clinton, uh, is--I don't know that this is the right thing to do, but I think Clinton may have been more confident--

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh really?

FORD: --in his ability with, uh, uh, the public than, uh, Combs was.

BIRDWHISTELL: Hmm.

FORD: Combs picked his spots pretty well.

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh, OK.

FORD: Yeah, Comb, Combs--when Combs went somewhere, he knew where he was going, and what he was going to do, and who he was going to meet.

BIRDWHISTELL: He didn't go to court without having it all worked out?

FORD: It's a lawyer's thing, that you don't ask a question unless you know the answer.

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: And Combs was that--built that way.

BIRDWHISTELL: I see.

FORD: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: And certainly, Bill Clinton might ask a question no matter what.

FORD: That's right, yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. Well, there's that story about, uh, when Combs--you know, that, uh, they picked Combs to run in '55, and, uh, passed over Doc Beacham because they told Doc Beacham, you know, he--he couldn't give a speech. And after Combs opened his campaign in Shelbyville in '55, they said he got back in the car, and Doc Beacham looked at him and said, "You said I couldn't give a speech?" (laughter)

FORD: Yeah, that was pretty bad, wasn't it?

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: That--that mountain twang, and, uh, he, uh--and Combs got to emphasizing, 00:34:00you know? And we talked with him, we helped him.

BIRDWHISTELL: Really?

FORD: I say in a room, and--and you know, about what to--he had all--he'd wear a white tie. We'd take his picture, and it looked like he just had on a white shirt, you know, no tie.

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: And so, we tried--we got him into striped ties, and something, you know, that made the picture look better.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And if you notice, he--he--he--it--those things, the little things, that, uh, I thought, uh, were important, that he never paid any attention to, and never cared about, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And so, uh--and maybe in the long run, it's just as well. But he, uh, he got to using his hand, and he--we wanted him to emphasize things. You know, every once in a while, there was, uh, the, uh elocution. You said you want to 00:35:00do your hand this way, when you want to make an impact. Or you want to--you just do your hand this way, and it shakes your body.

BIRDWHISTELL: Huh.

FORD: And so, we're trying to get Combs to have a rising inflection in his voice at occasions, and emphasize words, you know, get it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And, uh, so he got to doing this. (laughter) And then he got to doing this, you know? And --------(??) Combs would get in front of a microphone, you know, and just beat it to death.

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: And, uh, and--and he got--he was better when he did that, you know? Than just trying to--and Combs, uh, uh, uh, uh, wrote shorthand.

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh, he did?

FORD: Oh, yeah. Combs would write a speech in shorthand.

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: Or notes, you know.

BIRDWHISTELL: I didn't know that.

FORD: Oh yeah. And he would write--give shorthand notes, and give them to the secretaries, and they'd write letters from his shorthand. Oh, Combs is smart as hell. Oh, shoot, he--and he could do most anything, I'll tell you.

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: Um, no, but he, uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: I've seen film of him doing that.

FORD: Yeah, yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: I've seen that.

FORD: And it's--and it was trying to get him to emphasize, you know? You know, and I'll tell you this--

BIRDWHISTELL: Pointing at him.

FORD: Yeah. But he got to doing this, you know, and--

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: But anyhow, it's, uh--but he was, uh--he--he--he was a scholar. And, you know, sometimes a scholar, uh, you have to have people that understand what the scholar's saying.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah

.FORD: And, uh, so, what you were trying to do is to let him make a speech that Wendell Ford understood. You know, four-letter words, eighth grade education. You know, that's the average in Kentucky, it was eighth grade education.

BIRDWHISTELL: That's right.

FORD: Yeah. And so, in order to communicate, you've got to talk to where they 00:37:00understand it. And people hear, but they don't listen sometimes, you know? And if they're hearing you, they--and you--and you say things they understand, they listen, then.

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm.

FORD: And so, that was part of my--and maybe I oughtn't be saying all of this, but it's--

BIRDWHISTELL: No, I--I think trying to understand these people--

FORD: But it's, uh--but it, uh, uh, it just--Combs, you know, just like the--he had these ideas. I told you about the floral clock. Hell, we cried. Yeah, he sent people to Ireland, or Scotland, or somewhere, to look at the floral clock over there, and one up in Michigan, and wanted that sucker in there, you know? And every time somebody would fuss about it, he'd call, uh, garden clubs, and they'd all jump up and down, and just like when he was running against Harry Lee, uh, he agreed we wouldn't put any signs on telephone poles, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And the garden clubs applauded Combs, you know, for trying--the beauty, and not putting those old nasty campaign placards up on billboard--on telephone poles, and things like that. And every once in a while, why, Waterfield people would get--we didn't have many cards any how, we just didn't buy them, but we weren't going to put them up. --(coughs)--

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

FORD: And so, they had plenty, you know? They wanted to use them.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

FORD: And so, every once in a while, they'd get--there'd be a splash of Waterfield placards put up on telephone poles. Well, we'd just raise cane with them, you know? And called the league, uh, the uh, uh, guarding clubs. And all they'd get all over those people locally, you know? And just--just fuss at them good, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: And make an issue out of it. You know, it was an issue. And of course, Combs would--and then he had that fellow from over at the university some over and check those trees so he could widen the driveway around the mansion, I mean 00:39:00around the Capitol Building. And so, the garden clubs, this fellow, whoever he was, he's an older man.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: He said this tree is rotten, needs to--it has disease, needs to come down.

BIRDWHISTELL: It's dangerous, we've got to get that tree.

FORD: Yeah. And so, he'd go up there, and there'd be a tree, you know? And then he'd go around, and there'd be another tree, but he got all those parking places up there, it's huge. And a lot of--we did a lot of work, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: Was it busy?

FORD: Huh?

BIRDWHISTELL: In the Combs Administration, was it--was every day busy, was it as--was it an exciting time?

FORD: I don't know how exciting. I don't know, if you're busy, the excitement is not there unless you accomplish something.

BIRDWHISTELL: I see, uh-huh.

FORD: I mean, and--and, you know, it's just like everything. They like campaigning.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: Every day is a hard day.

BIRDWHISTELL: That's true.

FORD: And then you either win or lose. If you win, you're excited, and everybody's having a good time.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

FORD: But then the next day, you've got to go to work.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: There's no much joy in Mudville, uh, when--in, in politics.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

FORD: Maybe when you win a race, and celebrate that night, and then maybe--maybe a day or two after that. But--

BIRDWHISTELL: But you learned a lot sitting outside the governor's office about how that--

FORD: I was in--I was in the no office.

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: If--

BIRDWHISTELL: You never got to say yes, you said no! (laughter)

FORD: Yeah. And if it--you know, they'd come in there, I'd say, "Well, Terry, it's just--um, I wish we could do it, but, uh, just can't do it. And we just have to turn your request down." But if it was yes, I'd say, "The Governor wants to see you." So I'd say, "Governor, Terry Birdwhistell's out here." "Oh yeah, Terry, come on in here. We're going to do that project you asked us about. It's a goal, man."

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter) So, if you were trying to get something done, and you go to the governor's office, and you have to meet with Wendell Ford, you knew you were--

FORD: Well, that's the--that's the first step, but if--the final now--if a final decision, if it was no, I--I had to tell him. If it was yes, you got in to see the Governor. And of course, I lost some--some friends over that.

BIRDWHISTELL: I'll bet.

FORD: You know, because they expected me to help them get whatever they wanted.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

FORD: And the judgment was made by the Governor, and is--is--and he--the final the say so on some--some questions. Particularly, appointments, you know, and the road program was done, basically, through the Highway Department. But, uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: So, when you came back to Owensboro after your stint in the governor's office, people said, well what'd we get for your time up there?

FORD: Nothing.

BIRDWHISTELL: Really?

FORD: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: There wasn't a project won that uh--

FORD: I don't recall any. Because they were mad at me being in the governor's office and not getting West Kentucky Parkway closer to Owensboro.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that when it happened?

FORD: Yeah, um-hm. Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: Hmm.

FORD: They expected me, being so close to Combs, that, uh, that it would--that they--it was a little bit difficult at the time, to--

BIRDWHISTELL: I'll bet.

FORD: It was, uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: I'll bet.

FORD: And, uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: Those were big issues.

FORD: Yeah, it was--it was--and, uh, uh, Potter hit it every day almost.

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter) Seemed like to you, anyway.

FORD: Well, yeah. His editorial over there, it was on--it was on that one. And--and Potter was a good man, he--he had the best interests of the community at heart, there wasn't any question about that. And, uh, but for the overall picture of the state financial situation, and the state highway program, and all of that, they made the right decision.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: Now publicly, you know, it didn't do very well here, particularly. But other places where it went through, it was fine, you know? So, there's--more places got it than didn't.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

FORD: And so, uh, uh, that was a plus.

[break in audio]

BIRDWHISTELL: I guess it would've been not feasible to bring I-65 down from 00:43:00Louisville down to here, and then go to Nashville?

FORD: Uh, no, I don't think so, I'm not--I'm not--I don't remember the decision on that one.

BIRDWHISTELL: I guess, because the Kentucky Turnpike had already been built south of Elizabeth?

FORD: Yeah, and that was, uh--ah, when I was governor, I wanted to keep the--see, that became--they let us use that as part of I-65.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And--(coughs)-- when I was governor, we wanted to widen and improve that section through there, because of Louisville, and the traffic between there, and Fort Knox--

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh yeah.

FORD: --and Elizabethtown, and on down. And I wanted to keep the toll on a couple more years, or at least one more year, so that money could be used, then, to widen the road, and we could pay for it, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And then turn it over to the interstate system. But uh, Gene Snyder had 00:44:00the veto on that.

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh, did he?

FORD: Yeah, and, of course, that was his district. And uh, Gene, we almost, I thought, had convinced him that we--the--the money--the, the problems of one year would be worth the--the monies that we would have to widen and improve the road. But he decided then, and, then, that, uh, we should do it, and we had to go ahead and do it later, had--had a pretty terrific experience--expense. We wouldn't have the 100% money. We, uh, I'm not sure that we got 90/10 on that, may have.

BIRDWHISTELL: Hmm.

FORD: But anyhow, I wanted to do that. And we looked at, uh, widening the Watterson Expressway, which got into, uh, uh, the local race.

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh yeah?

FORD: Yeah, that was--Louisville, that was a big deal.

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: But look what we got today, had to make another one, and it's, you know 00:45:00--(sniffs)-- the noise was part of it, and but they got the walls up, and I think it's, uh, working very well.

BIRDWHISTELL: It's a lot safer now, that's for sure.

FORD: Oh yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: People say that Wendell Ford loved being governor. Did--did Bert Combs enjoy being governor, in the way that, say, you did, or Julian Carroll did?

FORD: I don't know. Uh, Terry, whether I can answer that or not.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: Uh, Combs never had, uh--he was more reserved, he was--he was never--you could--you never did see him do a soft shoe after something happened, you know, uh, that's a bad expression, probably.

BIRDWHISTELL: No, but--

FORD: But, you know, you know, excited about getting it done.

BIRDWHISTELL: I know exactly--

FORD: You know, you never--you never saw that in him.

BIRDWHISTELL: Hmm.

FORD: Uh, I think he was pleased with, uh, the things that occurred. And, uh, 00:46:00I think that he was disappointed to the point he couldn't do as much as he thought he could do, or maybe it weighed on him because he didn't do as much as he thought he should've done. Now, we're all in that shape.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And, you know, uh, but I never will forget when he said he was going to start, uh, breaking the ground on the Eastern Kentucky Parkway before the snow flew. And it snowed the day we broke the ground.

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: I guarantee you, it snowed that day. I like to--never got back to Frankfurt. And I was bringing members of the press back so they could write the story.

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter) You had to get back.

FORD: Yeah. And I stopped at a service station there and got chains, and put on the car. That's how bad it was. And Bert was, uh--he broke ground with a--a 00:47:00Caterpillar tractor, a DC-9, or whatever it was, he was up there. Of course, everybody was running when he started the darn thing up. But he--we broke ground with, uh--with a Caterpillar tractor. And it started snowing after he got it started, and it snowed, and snowed, and snowed. We must've had six or eight inches of snow to get from, uh, there.

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh.

FORD: And I had to bring these two people back to Frankfurt, had to get them back, you know, so they could write their story.

BIRDWHISTELL: That's--

FORD: One was Associated Press, the other one was the State Journal.

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh, oh. Did you think the same things motivated you in terms of politics, government, public service, or--did Combs have similar motivations?

FORD: Oh, I think so. I think so. Uh, he had--as I said earlier, he had these three areas in which he was very--

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: --uh, uh, adamant about. And, uh, the, uh--and just to give you some idea 00:48:00of what he wanted to do, as it related to eastern Kentucky, he passed the junkyard law, you know, to get them all cleaned up, and put the big fences up, and hide them because you saw all of those up in eastern Kentucky. All of these old cars parked in, you know, the junkyards.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: Well, Combs said, you're going to have the junkyards, but I don't want to see it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And so, they--well, that was a big political legislative fight. And uh, but Combs was trying to improve the scenery of eastern Kentucky, particularly. And uh, so, that was one of his. Oh yeah, he, uh--he, uh, felt like, I think, that, uh, uh, when you look back on it--and I'm not sure that he had made the decision then about making the effort on whether or school system was 00:49:00constitutional or not. Uh, may have. Because he kept both things for a long, long time to--

BIRDWHISTELL: He might have had that in his wallet?

FORD: Yeah, he might've had it in his wallet. But, uh, it was uh--and he--and one mistake we made that, uh, that he tried to do, and, was that the new--see, all of this was going into new--when Combs got over the hump on sales tax, as--and I referred to--you can start a project as governor, and go out and put your hand on it before you leave office. They begin to see school--new schools being built. They, they could go put their hand on it, or they could drive by it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And that's when Combs got over--and these were all schools, now. You know, oh shoot, he was--he was going pretty hard. And there was a lot of money in there. And some of the regional universities went too far in dorms, you 00:50:00know, 26 stories, well, the next one wanted to be 29, he'd be bigger than the other one.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: Well, they'd turn lights on up in the top 10 floors to make you think people were in--students were living in them, and they didn't have students in them. And then they finally mandated, you know, the freshmans. And I think Murray at one time mandated sophomores--

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: --would stay and pay the fee in order to pay the bond issue.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

FORD: But Combs said that, uh, the--the--the con, the construction would be done by Kentucky contractors.

BIRDWHISTELL: Hmm.

FORD: Well, that made everybody in surrounding states mad, particularly, Tennessee.

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter) I bet!

FORD: You know, Murray's right on the line, almost, down there.

BIRDWHISTELL: That's right.

FORD: And they building new school buildings and all of that. Tennesseeans couldn't bid on it. Well, then they eliminated Kentuckians doing business in Tennessee.

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh--

FORD: And so, uh, uh, we had contractors here that had license in Tennessee, did a lot of bids, got a lot of subcontracts in Tennessee.

BIRDWHISTELL: Wow.

FORD: And so, it got to be a border war.

BIRDWHISTELL: Wow.

FORD: And--

BIRDWHISTELL: I didn't know anything about that.

FORD: Oh yeah, it was--it was tough. And I guess those little things.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: But I'll guarantee you, that was one--one bitter period there between--and I think, one of the--one of the reasons Combs was so adamant about it is that we raised our sales tax. And so, if we raised our money, then our people will--will reap the benefit of it by building the buildings. And I think it was a good point. But, uh, in, uh, interstate commerce, it was a bad point.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

FORD: And--

BIRDWHISTELL: Some of those decisions that were ripple that you don't even realize.

FORD: Oh, this had--this--this ripple turned into waves.

BIRDWHISTELL: Hm.

FORD: And they were--they were cancelling--they called a special session, Tennessee, I'm not sure a special session, the Tennessee legislature, but anyhow, the legislature passed a bill similar to ours that Kentuckians couldn't 00:52:00come down there, you know? And so, they had a hard time working that out. And I think Ellington, maybe, was governor at the time, I'm not sure.

BIRDWHISTELL: Hm. Hm.

FORD: I think, maybe, Ellington was--

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: Was--

BIRDWHISTELL: When you think about what you've learned from your, sort of, political mentors, your father being your first political mentor, Earle Clements steps in, and sort of fills that void in a lot of ways.

FORD: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: You worked with Bert Combs. What, what did you learn from Bert Combs about politics, about government, about campaigns, that would serve you well, or not serve you well in the future?

FORD: Well, I found out that, uh, you could, uh--you had to be careful what you say to your friends.

BIRDWHISTELL: Really?

FORD: Yeah. Because, uh, they expect you to do more, some of them, that put up 00:53:00the money, and that sort of thing, expect you to get it back.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And you had to be careful. And, I worried about that with him, and with me.

BIRDWHISTELL: I see.

FORD: And, uh, the merit system that Bert put in, you know, was, uh, a political nightmare to some of the political people in, uh, the community, because they--if they were on the--winning side, and they were the patronage folks, they got to put out and give all of the jobs out, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

FORD: And, uh, that was uh, a, a piece of legislation that, uh, Pat Tenor from Owensboro, was very active in. And, uh, he became county judge here. But, uh, Combs, you know, uh, put in the state merit system. And you go back, Terry, to 00:54:00the growth of Frankfurt. Frankfurt started growing the day the merit system was, uh, signed into law.

BIRDWHISTELL: That's absolutely true, and I never thought of that before.

FORD: Yeah. But you go back, and what happened is that you would rent a room up there with bathroom privileges, and eat at the White Castle downtown. Until the next administration. Well, if your man won, well, then you got to stay. But if your man lost, then you went back home. So, it wasn't in need of buying the building, or, or dwelling, or some place to live, and uh, you're just there for a little while. But once the merit system was, uh--there was--became law, then people felt like that they were stable. Once you got a job at--there were certain appointed jobs that the Governor had to have, the commissioners, deputy 00:55:00commissioners, uh, secretaries of this, that, and the other. So, that was part of it. But outside of that little group, which is at the top, the directors, those that helped the administration carry out whatever plan for them they had, but everybody under that were safe. So, they began to invest in Frankfurt. And they got, they lived there. And people who lived in Frankfurt then bought lots and built homes, you know? When I was there under Bert Combs on Hiawath, Hiawatha--lived on Hiawatha Trail, Ms. Ford had some kinfolks up there, and one--her, her husband was a contractor. And he--he was building the house, and we bought it. And so, I bought in early. You know, and I stepped--because I felt like I'd stay there four years, uh, at least I intended to, which I didn't do.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

FORD: But from there out, there wasn't a--a home built, hardly. And, uh, down 00:56:00at the end of Hiawatha was the end of the subdivision, it was at the railroad track, the railroad came in. Now, you go on East Frankfurt, and it's just as far as you can see, high schools out there now, new one. Elkhorn School is gone, and, and all the way around. So Frankfurt has enlarged, as a result of the merit system. I saw what that did, Terry, and while I was governor, we put the so-called weed cutters under the merit system, too.

BIRDWHISTELL: Hm.

FORD: Because they were the ones that were being abused. They were not under the merit system. They were just kind of, you know, uh, well--considered daily employees. And so, they weren't covered. And being abused was that they'd come and want money for campaigns. You didn't know it as governor, whether they were 00:57:00doing it or not. But they would go down, and there were the patronage people, or the can, the candidates for local office, they would abuse these people and get $5 from them, or $10 from them, you know? They were afraid not to give it, they'd lose their job. So, I put them under--I, my administration, put them under the merit system. And I told them that, what, one, we didn't want them to be solicited for money. Two, we wanted to know that as long as they were doing their job, they were there, they-- regardless of who was governor. And three, that if they believed in what we were trying to do, I wanted them to go to the polls and vote for us, and take as many people with them as they could.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: Well, $5, back in those days, would almost buy a kid a pair of shoes, you know? And so, when they got to keep that $5, or $10 they would've given, you 00:58:00know? And get--or, and, and vote for the guy that helped them do that, they were willing to do that.

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm.

FORD: And so, I used, I guess, directly or indirectly, putting them under the merit system as a way of saying you're protected, and I'd like, if you feel like it, to help me now that I've made this decision, a lot of people are not going to like it, but you're on, and you're, I'd like for your help. And I did, I got awful good help from that.

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm.

FORD: Because they appreciated it, and they weren't harassed, and they weren't called in, close the door and say, "John, we want $10," and "Larry, we want $10," and "Wendell, we want $10," you know, and so forth. And put it out here in cash. That--that stopped. And I had--I have never seen it done. I have never been to a highway barn, as we refer to them, and, uh, uh, raised money. 00:59:00I've seen lists that people sent to--out and you're supposed to raise so much money in this district, and so much money in that district. And so, you've got targets to raise, amounts of money, and you've got to bring them in. The patronage people did that, then. And then the money came into headquarters.

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm.

FORD: Well, I've never seen that, you know? I've heard a lot of talk about it, and I'm sure it went on, but, uh, that was one thing I did not, uh--I guess didn't want to see, and didn't see. But, uh, and--and I can--I can remember when I was campaigning, after I won the primary against Combs, people wanted to give me cash, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm.

FORD: And, uh, I refused to take it. And some people got, uh, uh, real concerned. They thought I was being mean, or what--didn't like them, or--

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

FORD: You know, because they'd always given cash, you know? This--this--I said, "No, if you want to contribute to the campaign, write a check."

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm.

FORD: "Just write a check. I'll take your check, but I won't take your cash."

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm.

FORD: And I've got some experiences where people came in and, you know, at headquarters at the primary and said, you know, we want to help your campaign, you know? Shove it across the desk. Well, I shoved it right back. --(Birdwhistell laughs)-- And it got, uh--it--it got some attention, too. They said, well, now, I'm real trouble. You know, Ford's a Democrat, he's going to win, and he wouldn't take my money.

BIRDWHISTELL: It's not working no more.

FORD: See, it's not working like it ought to.

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: --(coughs)-- But, it, uh--and you know--and I guess the statute of limitations has run on things like that, but, uh, that was not--I didn't--I didn't take it as trying to bribe me, I didn't take it in the position that they 01:01:00were trying to do something illegal, I was trying--uh, I took it on the basis of what they always had done.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

FORD: And, uh, we were changing the system. And so, uh, changing the system meant that you were recorded, and how much you gave, and that was reported. And so, if you had records--I've got records today, uh, I guess, or you've got them.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: Of, uh, uh, people who contributed, and all that sort of thing. And it was, uh, not, uh, the fanciest report or anything, but it was, uh, an honest--as--as--as much as I could, uh, uh, determine, that we-- So, the merit system, and that's Combs now, with merit system.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

FORD: And, uh, I've seen people that, uh, would, uh, quit a job, uh, making 01:02:00more money, and go to work for the state, just because you ask them, "John, what are you doing?" "Oh, I'm working for the state." You know, it was kind of prestigious if you got a job. Uh, you knew the man!

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: You know? And so, therefore, you got a job, you know? And so, they--they--and--and had less money to take home. It just didn't make a lot of sense to me, but--

BIRDWHISTELL: That's the way it was.

FORD: That's the way it was.

BIRDWHISTELL: And, you know, what you just explained to me, Senator, reminds me, sometimes I don't see the obvious sometimes, but your generation was a transitional generation in Kentucky politics, because you knew firsthand that--have seen and observed the old way, I mean, the old way of doing things. And yet, you were transitioning, through the Combs Administration, to your administration, and certainly during your Senate years--

FORD: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: --into a--the kind of politics and fundraising that we have--

FORD: Yeah, and--and as we tried to correct it, and as we tried to improve on it, Terry, we left, uh, uh, we, we left a lot undone.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And money has, I think, now, and I--that--in my primary and general election for governor, we spent around $700,000. And that was almost $1 million, think about that, $700,000. Today, uh, we give a candidate for governor $1.2 million.

BIRDWHISTELL: Just right out of the--

FORD: Out of the taxpayers' plot, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And, uh, there's no volunteerism, there's no, uh, uh, concern, the only people that, uh, are concerned about it, are those that might have gotten hurt 01:04:00by something, or they didn't get the tax break that they were hoping they were going to get, or, uh, they ran a road through their property, and they're mad as the devil about. Uh, those people are the ones that, uh, uh, are out and are active.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: But everybody else seems to be pretty well satisfied.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: Uh, and, uh, now that we've gotten, uh, prosperity in the country again, and we're beginning to pay off the debt, and we're beginning to do things--pay--pay our way with a surplus, you know, then people want tax breaks. Well, that keeps us at a disadvantage. You still owe the money. And you still pay the interest.

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm.

FORD: And every time you reduce the debt, you save the interest, which is in 01:05:00billions of dollars, annually. Almost $1 billion a day, I guess.

BIRDWHISTELL: Hmm.

FORD: Somebody said one time.

BIRDWHISTELL: --------(??)

FORD: Think about that. So, if you pay the debt down, and you pay $50 billion on it, or $100 billion on it, you know, at 5% or 6% interest, that money, you don't have to spend. It stays in the general fund. You've got more money, because you were paying the debt, you know, you'd have this money, but you're paying the interest on it. And so, you still owe. This way, you're reducing the debt, and you're reducing the amount of interest you pay, so you've got more in--in the general fund. Maybe not as much if you'd save $50 billion, and it cost--and the interest was $5 billion on it, or $2.5 billion. But, your debt's coming down, there's more money left in the general fund to be used for other things. And it just doesn't make sense to me that people want to--now that 01:06:00we're beginning to pay the debt down after all of these years. See, I guess Lyndon Johnson was the last president that had a surplus, $2.5 billion. Uh, Jimmy Carter owed about $900 billion at the end of his--

BIRDWHISTELL: Really?

FORD: --I don't know, the country owed, I'm not sure it all occurred under that. When Ronald Reagan went out, we owed $6 trillion!

BIRDWHISTELL: Six trillion! (laughter)

FORD: You know, he's the great--we've had greatest economy under him, you know--greatest fellow, you know, as far as the economy, and that sort of thing. Well, he lived--the economy was being run on borrowed money.

BIRDWHISTELL: That's right.

FORD: And we're trying now to pay that off.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

FORD: And so, I don't know how great a president he was for the economy. I think he did rally people into going back to the center, some of them that were 01:07:00so ultra-liberal, I think he did, uh, bring young people back to the center. But when you get right down to it, you don't find much enthusiasm in your college students up there, for politics. Oh, you find a few.

BIRDWHISTELL: But not generally.

FORD: No. Uh, you--you could bring in, uh, the President of the United States and maybe get a couple thousand people, and you can bring in some rockstar and get 12,000-15,000. Well, is that a comparison? Well, I think music is important in one place, but listening and hearing the leader of the world, really, is another thing.

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm.

FORD: And I'm an old fogie, and, uh, but, uh, every generation will shoulder uh, the responsibility in this nation. And we are not, somehow, getting to the 01:08:00younger generation to show them their responsibility. We're getting a few.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, yeah.

FORD: And they are not--they're not the kind that would raise the type of money and get into the political arena. We're getting to the point that if you don't have $100 million to run for President of the United States, you can't run, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

FORD: And, uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: We saw that in the last election.

FORD: Yeah, just like the fellows at "Politically Incorrect" , or whatever it was, said, if--the question is, if Gore got a few thousand dollars from the monks, and, uh, George W. got tens of millions from the oil companies, now, who do you think is going to screw you? (laughter)

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: Oh, well.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, um, you were talking about the merit system during the 01:09:00Combs Administration, and the--and, uh, what--how would you describe the role of Ned Breathitt (??) in that personnel merit system?

FORD: Of course, Ned had to, um, handle the transition.

BIRDWHISTELL: Uh-huh.

FORD: And, uh, did a very good job, he and Combs were, at that time, very close. And he got some good, uh, support personnel, I don't remember names or anything, but he got some good support personnel. And Ned was his choice, of 01:10:00course, unbeknownst to most people, to be a candidate for governor, if he could make it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm.

FORD: And so, Ned, as Commissioner of Personnel, took the tact of going out and explaining what the merit system meant, because it was all positive, at least you make it sounds that way.

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm.

FORD: So Ned was out all over the state, uh, indirectly promoting himself at the--with the approval of Combs. Doing two things, really, was to explain the merit system, how it would save money for the state, do away with political corruption, do all of these sort of things, you know? And Ned was a pretty good speaker. And so, I'm carrying out these things for this administration, for 01:11:00Combs, and went on down the line. And, uh, it was, uh, uh, well thought out piece of work. And all of us knew somewhat of what was going on. See, Ned and I were the first two people, outside of the secretarial help, I've told you this, to go into Combs campaign headquarters--

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm.

FORD: --on his successful race. We set our suitcase down, and our hotel room was the office, and at night, you close your door and pulled out a rollaway, and slept there.

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: But, uh, uh, Ned was very effective, I think, as a speaker, and explaining it. Of course, then you had the people, understand--it took Ned a while to get around the state, but he picked the spots, most populous spots 01:12:00first to go and explain, like up in Owensboro, and Paducah, and Bowling Green, and Hazard, and Covington, places like that. And, uh, then he--then he eased down into smaller communities, and most of his speeches were to, uh, civic clubs. He didn't make a point of having a local meeting, or anything like that to explain the merit system. But he just made arrangements, or somebody did, to get, uh, him to, uh, the local civic club. Or if he was coming, have a joint meeting, you know? And so, it, uh--it worked out very well.

BIRDWHISTELL: That's a tough jump, though, from going from personnel inside of an administration to being a candidate for governor in some ways. But now, in a way you've explained it makes more sense that, uh--

FORD: Well, that was planned. And they worked on it. And so, Ned was getting, uh, a lot of help out of Hopkinsville, and west Kentucky, and Smith Broadbent, 01:13:00Jr., you know, was very strong for Ned. And that helped him in Trigg County, and that general area. So, uh, it was, uh--if he caught on. And that was--it was all understood. Now, who they would've backed him up with, I couldn't tell you right now.

BIRDWHISTELL: Um, I knew at one point, who the other people in contention were, because my understanding is, when Breathitt goes in and asks Combs if he's going to support him, Combs did what you implied there, "Well, let's see, you go out and let's see how you do."

FORD: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: He was, like, sort of on his own.

FORD: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

FORD: Well, but he was still Commissioner of Personnel, and making his--

BIRDWHISTELL: But--but Combs wouldn't--

FORD: No.

BIRDWHISTELL: --call anybody about his candidacy.

FORD: No, but Ned was getting some pretty good feedback from his speeches.

BIRDWHISTELL: Uh-huh.

FORD: And, uh, you know, when Ned gets up on his toes and gets that fist going, he can--he can enthuse a lot of people.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And, uh--and he had some pretty decent, uh, politicos. I don't know who helped him much in east Kentucky.

BIRDWHISTELL: Hmm.

FORD: But, uh, I--he felt like, I guess, if he could do Louisville and west Kentucky, and make a pretty good showing, that Combs could handle the rest of it. Of course, that was a race that, uh, they damn near lost.

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: Hell, they left the room, you know, victorious, and everybody--the votes weren't coming in right, and I remember that well. We called them all back down, better start calling counties. Hell, it got down to about 17,000, I think. And then Nunn won the next one.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right. Now, when Breathitt was working in the administration, you're working in the administration, you've got the family business back here that's, uh, still going good, and giving you some support, I assume. He's not 01:15:00practicing law. It seems like a big sacrifice for somebody like that to be in Frankfurt.

FORD: Ned probably struggled as much financially as anybody that's been in politics that I know of.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, that was--that was my impression.

FORD: Yeah. And when he left the governor's mansion, he was broke.

BIRDWHISTELL: Wow.

FORD: And he just took the job with John Jay Hooker, and his nursing homes, and that sort of thing, and got the job with, I guess it was Southern Railroad. And, uh, that--that boosted him, that helped him a great deal.

BIRDWHISTELL: Literally got him back on track. (laughter)

FORD: Yeah, yeah. And then, that 's when he moved to Washington, and, uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. Because he did that from a while from Hopkinsville.

FORD: Yes, um-hm. But, uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: So, he really was in a financial--

FORD: Oh, he was, uh--you know, the governor's uh, salary was, uh, I guess--uh, mine was $30,000, I think.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, and that had already gone up some from--from that previous-- It was not--it was not a lot.

FORD: And then, I'm not sure what he--uh, what his--I had a monthly allowance of $1,000.

BIRDWHISTELL: Uh-huh.

FORD: And so, uh, that's--that's all hard to run the mansion. And, of course, you didn't have--all of that, just the $1,000 was for special occasions and other things, for family food, and that sort of thing. But there was some, uh, money in there from the Parks Department for legislative receptions, and things of that nature.

BIRDWHISTELL: But you had a base of operation in Owensboro.

FORD: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: You know, you were--

FORD: Yeah, I had--

BIRDWHISTELL: And Breathitt didn't--I mean, he's not practicing law, he doesn't have a law firm back there that's doing anything, so--

FORD: So, when my mother passed away, of course, and I was--and I had to leave Combs--see, Dad came and stayed with us in Frankfurt for several weeks.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And, uh, gradually got adjusted to it, but, uh, we just had to load up and come home.

BIRDWHISTELL: You had responsibility. That's a--that's an interesting story about--

FORD: Yeah, it was--it was--

BIRDWHISTELL: You know, and the last time I asked you about who your best friend was, and you said your brother.

FORD: Um-hm.

BIRDWHISTELL: And, uh, that makes so much sense, because of, not only because of your close family relationships, but because of those ties you all had to business partners, and--

FORD: Yeah, and he--and he--he took a lot of licks from me.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, he took, he took…

FORD: He took a lot, yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: He took some hits.

FORD: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: So, now, when Wyatt--you had said that, uh, you were the liaison between the governor's office and the Wyatt Campaign. So, you were able to keep track of--

FORD: Well, I was--every time they would have a strategy meeting, or something like that, I would attend that meeting. If Combs had any suggestions for Wyatt 01:18:00or something, I was to relay that. Wyatt had any, had anything for Combs, I was to relay that back, and to report on what was going on at the meeting to Combs, basically.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And so, that was--uh, not a--it was not a happy position for me to be in.

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: But, uh, I learned a lot. (laughter)

BIRDWHISTELL: That's what we were saying right before the interview started.

FORD: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: You can learn a lot from adversity! (laughter)

FORD: Yeah, that's right, it was--yeah. But it was, uh--and, and Wilson was always, you know--it just, like, when Combs and Wyatt were running against each other before they joined forces, they would ask--Combs would make a--they'd ask Combs a question, and he'd say yes or no, and uh, the average answer for--from Wyatt was 75 words.

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: Oh, it was--so, it was--Wilson was, uh, a nice fellow, and I liked him, 01:19:00he was just as nice as he could be. And, uh, uh, knew something about politics, but he was, uh--he was an Adlai Stevenson person, you know? He was--of course, he was National Chairman and that sort of thing. And, uh, he and Adlai were a lot alike. And they were--they had a tendency to speak over your head, you know? And, uh, not on purpose, but that was just the makeup of the individual.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: You know, it was a--it was the makeup. They were just--it was like I go back --------(??) we want Combs to talk in language that, uh--I--Ford could understand, you know? That the average was eighth grade out there, and you need to keep in four-letter words, and when they listen--when they uh, hear you, if 01:20:00they under--if they understand what you're saying, they listen to you, then. But if they don't understand, they quit. They hear what you're saying, but they don't know what the hell it means.

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter) Let me turn this off.

[Pause in recording.]

BIRDWHISTELL: I've never quite understood that about Wilson Wyatt--once I got to know him through these interviews, and find out about his background, you know, you've got these rural roots through his grandparents.

FORD: Oh yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: Father was a streetcar driver.

FORD: Yeah, yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: You know, uh, humble, working-class roots. Worked his way through law school. And then he transforms himself as an adult into this, uh, you know, giving the appearance of, uh, uh--of the upper echelon of everything. And as you say, he--he had that tendency to talk that way, but yet, his roots weren't--weren't there at all. I don't know how he--how he did it.

FORD: --(coughs)-- I don't know, but Wyatt was, uh--you know, I thought he was 01:21:00a very intelligent individual.

BIRDWHISTELL: He was.

FORD: And I think you found that out, too, in his interview. And, it became to be second nature with him, I think.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. He just adopted it.

FORD: Yeah, and it just--once it became second nature to him, why--it was just normal for him to do things like that. And, uh, he, uh-- He was an awful good lawyer, and he, uh, practiced some awful weighty cases, did a lot of, uh, corporate work, and that sort of thing. So, it, uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: And made a lot of money.

FORD: Yes, he did. He did well. Wyatt, Tarrant and Combs, you know, finally.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. Now, I think, didn't he become upset during the Senate campaign, because the gubernatorial fundraising was--

FORD: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: --up and running before he could--

FORD: Yeah. It was the--uh, the, the governor's race was, uh, almost red-hot. 01:22:00And so, therefore, the energy for Wyatt, in his race, was being diverted to the next governor's race. And, uh, he was complaining about that, uh, profusely.

BIRDWHISTELL: He never got over it?

FORD: No, I don't think so. And, uh, he uh, I don't know what the final margin was, I think it was substantial. But, uh, it may not have changed the outcome, it might've changed the total some, if we had the governor's race. And that's one of the fears you always have, uh, that when you're--when you're running, not for--say you're running for the Senate, or you're running for Congress, or you're running for something else, that the governor's race gets in--gets in your way.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And, uh, there's fear that if you don't get started early, you don't look like you have any money--

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: --and if you get started too early, you're teeing off somebody, you know, if my Senate race is uh, in, in--going, and the governor's race is raising money out there, too, your call to help me in the Senate race, and your call to help, uh, somebody else in the governor's race, and governor's closer to home, and your--your tendency is to give to the governor, and--and not to the US Senate race.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right. Job flows--

FORD: Yeah, sure. Oh--oh, well--

BIRDWHISTELL: --------(??)

FORD: Just like Tip O'Neill has always said, you know, he's been quoted, a lot of others have said it too, is that all politics are local.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And so, that's what the governor's race is, it's a local race.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. Now, the Senate seat you would eventually take is the seat that Thruston Morton held.

FORD: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: So, you're in the direct line of--with that--with that seat. Did 01:24:00you ever give much thought to who Thruston Morton was, or what kind of person he was, or what kind of senator he was, or what kind of races he ran?

FORD: Uh, he was a smart devil, he could, uh--he, he could be--uh, he could have a couple of drinks and make one heck of a speech. I get--if I'd have a couple of drinks, my tongue would get wrapped around my eye teeth, and I couldn't see what I'm saying, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: But he always had a--a heaven, home, and motherhood ending to it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: Flag waiving, and that sort of thing. And he was pretty good. And, uh, uh, um, Thruston liked his, uh, uh, Kentucky bourbon, as most people knew.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And he and Russell Long, uh, drank a lot together.

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh, they did?

FORD: Oh yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: I didn't know that.

FORD: Yeah, and, uh, the story is that they had their clothes on in the swimming pool at the Russell Building, uh, singing "Sweet Adeline" or whatever, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: And, uh, they, uh--but, uh, Thruston was--he was likeable, uh, his brother, I guess, was from Maryland, was in the Congress. And, uh, they were a politically oriented, uh, family. And, uh, I think they played off each other a little bit in the--in the--uh, in D.C., one in the House and one in the Senate, I think, their--(coughs)--abilities to do things. And so, uh, oh, Thruston was, uh, a good senator. He, uh--he--you know, I never will forget when Wilson Wyatt thought he had a coup with Harvey Aluminum coming to Lewisport, and the deal was that the city of Lewisport would issue the bonds to build the smelting factory. And, uh, uh, that the--Harvey Aluminum would sign the contract that would pay 01:26:00the bonds off. So, the city was held, basically held harmless.

BIRDWHISTELL: Hmm.

FORD: Well, they--the press asked, uh, Thruston what, uh, he thought of this, uh, new Harvey Aluminum plant in the--of course Wilson Wyatt was the industrial development person in the Combs Administration.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

FORD: He had more shovels around the wall than you have at a regular hardware store.

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: And, uh, he had them all encased, you know, and hanging up, oh--and engraved. Oh, it was--it was right an impressive thing. But they asked him--asked Thruston what, uh, he, uh, thought of Wyatt getting the--announcing the Harvey Aluminum and so forth. He said, "Well, I imagine it's good for the community. But, uh, it's awful bad for those 700 citizens down there, if they have $150 million debt on their shoulders." And that's all he said. Well, that 01:27:00kind of--you know, every citizen in this little town has got $150 million of debt on their shoulder, you know how--he just--it was the right answer.

BIRDWHISTELL: He acted right out--

FORD: Yeah, yeah. Just right out from under him. And it, uh, it was, uh--Morton was just a better politician than, uh, Wilson was.

BIRDWHISTELL: And maybe, don't you think, a better politician than people gave him credit for a lot of times. You know, being that--

FORD: Yeah, uh, but..

BIRDWHISTELL: --it was very political sometimes.

FORD: Yeah, but Morton, uh, you know, he--he could just get up and make a speech, you know? And people were kind of amazed at it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Uh-huh.

FORD: It's like my mother, she never will--I never will forget her talking about Lawrence Weatherby making a speech in the basement of the old Rudd Hotel, at a fundraiser down there. And he was, uh, uh, running for lieutenant governor at the time, from Anchorage, you know, not from Louisville.

BIRDWHISTELL: That's right! (laughter)

FORD: Because everybody's against Louisville, he--he's from Anchorage.

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: And Mother was amazed at what a speech he made. He only had the little piece of paper with some notes on it, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: Well, he'd been giving the speech every day, you know, for, for months. (laughter) And Mother was just amazed that he could get up there with those little notes, and make that speech that he did, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: And so, that's kind of the way with Morton.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: Morton would give the same--he, he'd have an issue. And we all did, when I was running for governor, I'd have a daily issue.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And I'd make a--a statement about that issue, a couple paragraphs, we put that out as a--a print. The rest of the speech was the same.

BIRDWHISTELL: Boilerplate around it?

FORD: Yeah, yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm.

FORD: And so, the speech was basically the same. So, it didn't take a--a brain surgeon to figure out what the heck you were doing, you know? But, uh, some people were just amazed that Mother was just so--she just thought Lawrence Weatherby was something when he got up there and made--and he did make a--sometimes, you can give the same speech over and over, sometimes it's good, 01:29:00and sometimes it isn't.

BIRDWHISTELL: That's true.

FORD: But that speech Lawrence gave that night was excellent, and I remember it, I was there, and Mother was just, uh, she was just singing Weatherby's praises. She just thought he was--but he did make a good speech, and just had very few notes. (laughter)

BIRDWHISTELL: Certainly, Morton and Cooper, as Republican Senators would, I guess it'd be fair to say, are different than, say, the two Republican Senators we have today.

FORD: Yeah. Uh, uh, Cooper was a little more on the liberal side. Uh, somebody, I heard say one time that you couldn't beat John Sherman, he voted Democrat, and voted on--ran on a Republican ticket. And it was awful hard to beat him. Of course, John, I guess--I don't know how many races he lost.

BIRDWHISTELL: Almost as many as he won.

FORD: Yeah. And, uh, he--did he--did he finally have--he had two full terms? 01:30:00Because he had two or three part--

BIRDWHISTELL: Partial term--

FORD: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, partial term--uh, two partial terms and two full terms.

FORD: I think that's right, that's right.

BIRDWHISTELL: He had full terms in '60 and '66.

FORD: Yeah, I think because '72 is when, uh, Dee ran against Lou--Louie.

BIRDWHISTELL: And won, too.

FORD: Um-hm.

BIRDWHISTELL: Um, so, you knew Breathitt was running for governor?

FORD: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: And you--he had talked to you about that?

FORD: Absolutely.

BIRDWHISTELL: And he set out for it.

FORD: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did you want to run for lieutenant governor at that time?

FORD: No, had no interest in it?

BIRDWHISTELL: How come?

FORD: Just didn't--uh--political office didn't appeal to me, it really didn't. Uh, uh, I watched Dad run, and watched him get defeated. And, uh, I didn't like 01:31:00it, hurt me, probably, worse than it did him. Uh, I was negative on politics, I--to go back to the point I think I made earlier that when I came back and went into business with Dad, it was small business, but I understood that everything we did, government was part of it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm.

FORD: And I wasn't objecting to the system, I just wanted to be sure we had the right kind of people running the system.

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm.

FORD: And that's when some of us who came back from World War II who were trying to be small business people--I guess the politician would call us kingmakers.

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm.

FORD: We'd never wanted to be the king, we just wanted to be sure that we had the right king.

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm.

FORD: And so, uh, that's, uh--um, my interest in--in politics before I got into 01:32:00the Jaycees, and that made me uh, vulnerable to everything else. (laughter)

BIRDWHISTELL: So--so, you're back down here working in the business, Breathitt, uh--uh, of course, gets the nomination. Now, did he ask you to come to headquarters and work?

FORD: Uh, yeah, some. I did that but, uh, Davis County was important to him, it was a big one, and I--we worked here.

BIRDWHISTELL: So, you decided--you did--

FORD: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: --you stayed here?

FORD: Yeah, stay here, and, uh, so, uh, that was, uh, uh, I did--I--I made speeches, helped him organize young people, did things of that nature. I don't think I took any kind of campaign position, I don't remember whether I did or not, but I do know that we worked here, and we organized, and we had some awful good women, Elsie Basham and others, Bee Westfield and people like that, that 01:33:00worked in headquarters almost free, gratis.

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm.

FORD: And, uh, organized very well. Henry Griffin was one of them, and, uh, uh, Moose Moorhead and Ned were very close. And Moose Moorhead was a real estate agent here who had angina, his wife brought him something to do, about to drive her nuts, uh, and that was to paint by numbers. And so, uh, he got to liking that, and started painting, and became an artist of real estate. And Moose was selling all of these and doing very well with them. And, uh, they, uh, uh--and Moose was very much for him here. C.G. Moorhead, Jr. is his name, we called him Moose.

BIRDWHISTELL: C.G. Moorhead?

FORD: Uh-huh. And, uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: J.R. Miller was close to Breathitt, right?

FORD: Yeah, they were--they were reasonably close. And, uh, so, uh, it was, 01:34:00uh--it was--it was a pretty decent struggle. Louie had some pretty good friends. And Louie, you know, in--in my judgment was about a good a one-on-one I've ever dealt with back in his day --(sniffs)-- and maybe he's still that good, I don't want to deal with him one-on-one anymore.

BIRDWHISTELL: He's pretty good.

FORD: And he organized, uh, out from underneath Henry Ward in west Kentucky.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, yeah. Did you think Breathitt could beat Chandler in primary in '63?

FORD: Terry, I don't know what I thought.

BIRDWHISTELL: Because that's a tough race.

FORD: Yeah. But see, Ned took him to schools, and Happy was raising cane about the sales tax --

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

FORD: --that Combs had put on. And Breathitt had him at school with the teachers, and the students that were getting the benefit of it, and drove him up a wall. You know, they booed Happy and cheered Ned, you know? --(sniffs)-- And 01:35:00so, finally, Happy woke up that this is not good for me!

BIRDWHISTELL: Not do this! (laughter)

FORD: So, it wasn't good for him to go debate, so he started turning them down, and Breathitt started raising cane about he won't debate me anymore, he won't come talk about education, he won't come talk about the kids, he won't come talk about all of that. And Happy began to go down.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And so, when Happy agreed that--this whippersnapper, you know.

BIRDWHISTELL: That's right.

FORD: This whippersnapper, Oh, we'll just--I'll just drive him into--well, he had kids, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: High school students, basically.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And the teachers. Well, the teachers were for Combs and Breathitt because of the money coming into education, the new buildings, increase in salaries, the--oh, the new range of certificate, and Master's, and Master's plus 30, and then you got a raise and all of that, you know, it was--they--they were 01:36:00all for that. So, they instill that in their students. And so, when Breathitt got Happy and the scheduled meetings of debate, you know, in schools, he drove him up a wall. You know, it was--it was over for Happy at that--and then, when he saw what was happening to him, and he turned them all down, and he failed to appear, Ned would debate the empty chair, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, yeah.

FORD: Where is he, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah

.FORD: Where is he? He's against kids, he's against teachers, he's against education, he's against all these sort of things, you know? Because he wants to take the sales tax away. Where'd you get this new school building? Where'd your teachers get their modest raise? You know, it came from the sales tax. Sales tax has helped education in this country. And if Happy Chandler had left it on when Ruby Lafoon went to Washington, we would've been one of the better states in the nation, you know? But he took it off back then. Oh, it was 01:37:00a--you know, we just--and--and we could make the same speech, you know, for Ned, where, and--but you had to pick your audiences. But they would go away, and--and the newspaper would say he spoke to an enthusiastic audience.

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm.

FORD: And you had teachers in this county that were precinct officers. They went out and they took polls. Oh, those teachers, they--they worked hard here.

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm. I didn't realize that.

FORD: Oh yeah. Oh yeah, we--we--we had--the--the teachers became a little bit sophisticated after that.

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: You know, as far as politics is concerned.

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh, I understand, I understand.

FORD: Yeah. I mean, on--not that they weren't soph--sophisticated before, but--

BIRDWHISTELL: But they got organized.

FORD: They got organized, they had the polls, they decided to get precinct officers, they'd try to be a part of the--of the organization, it was a--

BIRDWHISTELL: And they'd later come and see governors with--want to know where's the beef.

FORD: Where--yeah, where's the beef.

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)-- Um, great contrast in styles, contrast in ages between Chandler--

FORD: Oh yeah

BIRDWHISTELL: You know, youth.

FORD: Yeah. And so, see, that--uh, they--Chandler's ego got the best of him. Now, I liked Happy, we finally got along pretty well. (laughter) Uh, I gave him his trooper and driver, you know, driver back--you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, that's the way to his heart.

FORD: But, uh, Happy let his ego--just like I said a while ago, well, I'll just drive this little whippersnapper into the ground? You know, I'm--I'm a great debater, I'm the silver tongue, I'll sing "My Old Kentucky Home", I'll do all of these things, you know? But here's a young man, and an old pot-bellied fellow over here, you know? And, uh, uh, I guess the kids may have heard of Happy 01:39:00Chandler, and never heard of Ned Breathitt. Really, when you get down to it, they'd heard of Happy. But when you put him out there in front of the audience, and the audience were high school students, uh, that had been indoctrinated, and the teachers out here, they were all for Breathitt. And Happy was over here saying he wanted to do away with sales tax and making his pitch, you know? He was making his pitch to the kids, they should've been making to their parents.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right, right.

FORD: And when he made that to the kids, the kids booed him, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: Right. Right.

FORD: You know, I don't know whether they were instructed to do that or not, but nevertheless, they booed him. And then, uh, when he saw what had happened to him, and, uh, the hide was coming off, he decided that, uh, the--the best of the--of the two worst worlds was not to debate Breathitt anymore. But then, Breathitt just drove him into a wall over that. And I don't know what the margin was, but, uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: It wasn't, uh--

FORD: It wasn't overwhelming.

BIRDWHISTELL: But it wasn't close.

FORD: No.

BIRDWHISTELL: It was--

FORD: It was substantial, we didn't have a recanvas.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. Yeah.

FORD: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: It was a beating. And were you at headquarters that night?

FORD: Um-hm.

BIRDWHISTELL: That must've been a--

FORD: I don't--I don't remember the--

BIRDWHISTELL: No?

FORD: --the margin, but it was--it was enough. I can't remember what it was. But anyhow--

BIRDWHISTELL: I should have that in front of--

FORD: Yeah. The fall was the tough one, you know, it was tougher than the--than the general, when you get down to it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Tougher than anybody thought it was going to be.

FORD: Yeah. Because Nunn really had no statewide, uh, uh, uh--he wasn't--he didn't--he hadn't been in public office before. You know, he'd been a county judge.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right, right.

FORD: But, uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: He'd sort of been like you, in that he had run--he'd been involved in running campaigns.

FORD: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: But not a candidate himself, except for locally.

FORD: Yeah, that's right.

BIRDWHISTELL: He had been in local campaigns.

FORD: Yeah, he--he--he was the first Republican judge of Baron County, wasn't 01:41:00he? I think so. But--

BIRDWHISTELL: Did you know Louie Nunn before that?

FORD: --(coughs)-- I met him at, uh, Jaycee Convention in Louisville when I was national president.

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh, really?

FORD: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: So, it'd have been '55-'56?

FORD: Six, '56, or mid'-'57.

BIRDWHISTELL: Uh-huh.

FORD: That was the first time I'd met him.

BIRDWHISTELL: You remember meeting him?

FORD: Not very well. I remember the--uh, that he was running for office, uh, of the Jaycees, and he got beat.

BIRDWHISTELL: He did?

FORD: I think so, in statewide office. And, uh, he, uh--but, uh, see, when Louie was up there, Louie, uh, had--had issues. Ned had never been a statewide office holder, he'd been an office holder. He'd been a representative, and secretary, or commissioner of personnel, but Louie had been county judge, you 01:42:00know, and that sort of thing. So, they were--they were kind of equal, and then--

BIRDWHISTELL: They were both young.

FORD: Yeah. And so, uh, it was--uh ---and Nunn was aggressive, made good speeches, had--he was--as I say, he was a good organizer. To me, Louie Nunn, at that time, he's lost his tone now, but like all of us, the--but he was, uh, the Earle Clements of the Republican Party at that time. Because Earle was the--Earle was the best organizer in the political arena I've ever dealt with. And so, that goes back to at least '58, '59, when I first got into statewide. The first jolt I ever got from Clyde Watson, we were over counting votes at the old courthouse. And Barkley was running against Cooper. And, uh, Clyde came 01:43:00back and said, "Well, Barkley's going to win by 75,000." I said, "Boy, that's a good victory." And he said, "Yeah, Cooper only beat him in Louisville about 1,800 or 2,000."

BIRDWHISTELL: Uh-huh.

FORD: And somehow or another, Terry, I couldn't--you get beat in Jefferson County, you know, and then you're going to win by 75,000. That didn't--it didn't--that--that wasn't the--I remember that.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah

FORD: He went in behind--behind the judge's bench there, and got the phone, called, uh, Louisville. And, uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: Wow.

FORD: Clyde had been, uh, he was in the printing business with Greenwood Chisholm. He was a good politician. And, uh, he was in Washington as administrative assistant, and worked in the office of some senator, I don't know whether it was Chapman or not. But anyhow, Clyde was here. And his son was 01:44:00Bobby Watson, played basketball for UK.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And so his father, Bobby's father, taught me a lesson I won't long--I'll remember. And that's when you had to look at the Rock of Gibraltar, you know, and the 5th District, and central Kentucky, and whether you're a Democrat or Republican, and how they uh, how they, how they would vote, basically. And of course, you--if you'd get a majority out of the 1st that was larger than the majority in the 5th, it was a foregone conclusion.

BIRDWHISTELL: That's--

FORD: It's over, the Democrats would win. But when it was--just like Henry Ward carried the 1st District by 15,000 against Louie Nunn. And it was over.

BIRDWHISTELL: Uh, of course, Nunn in '63 had his own problems with his, with the Louisville base.

FORD: Oh yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: That got wildly out of hand. That's probably why he lost in 63, 01:45:00is because of that tension within the Republican party, you know, we talked about Democratic factionalism, because it's so, uh, in your face--(Ford coughs)-- Republican factionalism was under the radar, almost, in--in a lot of ways.

FORD: Yeah, but that was Cook and Nunn, wasn't it?

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm.

FORD: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm

FORD: And, uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, and--yeah, that--it was sort of a rural urban issue within that party at the same time.

FORD: Yeah, well, but the other side, there were some awful nasty letters, uh, in--in the mail. I guess that when Louie got the nomination, is that the year he won, that, that--nom--that he beat, uh, Cook? Was that the year he beat, uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: In '67, when he beat Cook.

FORD: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm, '63, uh--

FORD: Well, yeah, OK. But the letters--

BIRDWHISTELL: That was '67.

FORD: Oh yeah, boy.

BIRDWHISTELL: That was rough.

FORD: Yeah. And, uh, I, I never--they were pretty nasty letters about Catholicism.

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm.

FORD: And, uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, they got in trouble with the Jewish people as well, too.

FORD: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: Apparently, uh, all of that judge, the Republican judge--

FORD: In Louisville, county judge?

BIRDWHISTELL: No, he ran for, uh--Dawson.

FORD: Dawson, yeah. Ran for governor.

BIRDWHISTELL: Ran for governor.

FORD: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: He apparently said some things.

FORD: Yeah, well, he was a crusty old fellow, yeah! (laughter)

BIRDWHISTELL: He said something about Jews, I remember.

FORD: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: It didn't go over too well. Well, it--um, now one of the things that, uh--

FORD: We bounce around a lot, don't we?

BIRDWHISTELL: That's all right.

FORD: OK.

BIRDWHISTELL: It's all on the same topic.

FORD: All right.

BIRDWHISTELL: That's the nice thing about doing it this way, see, that history isn't just a here--

FORD: Constant.

BIRDWHISTELL: It's not a--it's not a constant line, there's things that--all of 01:47:00these things connect, and see, what goes back in the '63 campaign to the, to the Combs Administration, of course, is his executive proclamation--

FORD: Oh yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: --that Combs issued.

FORD: Yeah, and--and Breathitt was sound asleep when the paper called him, and he said, you know, he agreed to it!

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: That was Bobby Kennedy! Yeah. And Bobby Kennedy got Combs to do that.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And Combs did it, and Breathitt approved it, you know? You're out of--they're groggy, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, yeah.

FORD: If he'd been awake, I don't know if he's changed his mind, but he sure as hell shouldn't have talked to the press when he's--uh, wake him up in the middle of the night.

BIRDWHISTELL: That's right, that's right. So, tell me how that--how that all came about, in terms of, uh, that relationship with Bobby Kennedy?

FORD: I really don't know, just to be very frank with your, Terry, I don't know--

BIRDWHISTELL: That's fine.

FORD: Combs was, uh--he liked John Kennedy, uh, uh, Bobby was, uh, Attorney 01:48:00General, of course. Combs, uh, with his legal background, judicial background, and it all kind of came--and this was, kind of, Combs' thinking too, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, yeah.

FORD: And so, he was agreeing with Bobby. And, uh, uh, it was a gutsy thing for Combs to do. And, uh, so I don't know, uh, uh, what uh--but there was some kind of rapport between Combs and the Kennedys. And uh, it was, uh--because, you know, Kennedy carried the mountains pretty well.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. Were you surprised Combs didn't?

FORD: Yes, I was, yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: Just because of politics?

FORD: Yeah, um-hm.

BIRDWHISTELL: Just politically?

FORD: Yeah, politically. Wait, whether he needed to do it at the time or not, I can't say today. Uh, politically, it was, uh, unfortunate. And, uh, it was 01:49:00an issue that everybody understood, it's one of those four-letter word issues that everybody understood.

BIRDWHISTELL: OK.

FORD: And Ned was on record, and couldn't deny it. He tried to waffle around it, and all of that sort of stuff, but it just--his waffle burned.

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: And, uh, that, uh--that was a--that was a political mistake. I, sometimes, you can't get around them, sometimes you have to do them.

BIRDWHISTELL: Just writing--

FORD: Yeah, this was an executive order.

BIRDWHISTELL: Executive order, that wasn't a proclamation, it was an executive order?

FORD: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And, uh, it was, uh, something that Combs did as Governor, and could do as Governor, or didn't have to do, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: There's a big difference in an executive order and legislation.

FORD: Oh yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: Tell me how that plays.

FORD: Yeah, executive order, some of it has the, uh, impact of law until the 01:50:00le--the next legislative session. You can proclaim a day which, uh, is just there, that doesn't mean much. You know, it just--you sign it, and that day's on record as being, uh, Terry Birdwhistell Day in Kentucky, just, December the 7th, 1995, you know, whatever. But, uh, the executive order, some of it has the, uh, uh, force of law until, uh, the legislature, uh, takes it up the next time, and either approves or disapproves it. And I'm not sure--the law has changed so much. Uh, uh, there have been little statutory changes about a lot of things. And I think when you had this team, uh, of governor and lieutenant governor, changed the political landscape considerably. And so, uh, I'm not 01:51:00sure about all of my--I knew the law at the time.

BIRDWHISTELL: Sure.

FORD: But I don't know the law today.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did you know--did--did Combs call you or let you know that he was going to do this executive order? How did you find out?

FORD: The same way Ned did. And I'm not sure anybody notified Ned. And that was a mistake. Because if he had been alerted, he would have had a prepared statement. But, uh, uh, you know, he--if he is your candidate, you don't, uh, uh, bail him--you--you bail him out, you don't put him in, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: More of an anchor? (laughter)

FORD: Yeah! So, it, uh--he was, uh, dumped on that one.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, that became a big issue.

FORD: Um-hm. It was about the only issue at the end.

BIRDWHISTELL: And--and Nunn used it--

FORD: Oh, ferociously. Oh, it was--it was a--it was--it was just a struggle to hold on. Because--and then--and then everybody would tell a different story about it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh, did they?

FORD: Well, I mean, they would--to put it--couch it in your language, and--and couch it in my language, and somebody else--just like when, uh, Al Smith ran for president, you know? Hell, the Pope had already left Henderson, he was at Reid!

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: On his way to Washington, D.C. when Al Smith won, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: That was in the '30s. And I remember that! Oh yeah, it was--and people were talking about the--and as serious as they could be.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: That the Pope was on his way to Owensboro from--from Henderson. He'd already made Reid. And that's a little crossroad with a, a, S-curve in it down 01:53:00here, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: I guess he was walking.

BIRDWHISTELL: Might've been in the Popemobile.

FORD: Yeah! No, didn't have one of those.

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: But, uh--and you know, people are good at rumors.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yes.

FORD: Some people are just good at rumors.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yes, they are.

FORD: And, uh, I've always heard, and I don't know how true it is, that you, uh--your favorite rumor monger starts this rumor, and if it gets back in 24 hours, it's a hot one, you know? Gets back in 48 hours, it's a medium-size, if you don't hear from it for two or three days, it didn't amount to a hill of beans, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: So, a lot of rumors are put out.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: It's just like you used to say about Musey's (??), uh, restaurant there in, uh, Frankfurt.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: They had that big coffee table in there, everybody would come in the morning and have coffee, and all of the lawyers and so forth. And they said 01:54:00they'd stay around until they heard a rumor that they could repeat, and they'd leave, you know? --(Birdwhistell laughs)-- So, they go out on the street and they start repeat--repeating what he heard at the breakfast table, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: And so, uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: So, the rumors about the executive order were that--

FORD: Were--were worse. It's just like, uh, uh, the--uh,. Morton put out the ADA on--on, uh, uh, Wyatt.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And the fellow said that stands--the farmer down there in west Louisville where he made the speech, one of them, he says that's the Day--American Day Association, you know? No, it's Americans For Democratic Action. Well, what's wrong with Americans For Democratic Action? Well, then they started taking about all of whose people were in it, and what they were trying to do, and all of that kind of stuff. And that was--it got to be--yeah, those sort of things start on you, Terry, and--and sometimes, you can stop them, and sometimes, you 01:55:00can't. And people sit back there in that six-by-six room with a 60-watt bulb and the green shade over their eyes thinking up those--thinking up those things that they can put out. And, uh, you have to have somebody trying to figure--second guess them. And it's just like when Combs ran, and I ran against each other. Uh, it's Bert T.--T for taxes, Combs.

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: And uh, we knew that he was going to endorse the teachers, uh, program. And they were going to endorse him. Well, we knew that it was an increase in taxes, you know, in this last race.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: In my race with him.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yes.

FORD: And we knew, uh, that we--we had a copy of the platform that they were passing at the convention.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And they were going to endorse him, and he was going to endorse that. 01:56:00So, we started, two or three days before that, saying you just watch old Bert T.--T for taxes, Combs, he'll go down to Louisville with those teachers, and he'll promise to raise taxes again, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, yeah.

FORD: And low and behold, it happened.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: We second-guessed that one right. And old Arthur Krtizer (??) was just a fellow over here in McLean County. Good old fellow, nice wife, and loved politics, and he was always active.

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: And so, we had these flyers that we put out about what Combs had agreed to. Couldn't--it was a hot--this little town over--I don't know whether it's Beech Grove, or where it was over here. But anyhow--I think it's Beech Grove. And Arthur was, uh, passing out these leaflets at the store, and it was 110 in the dang shade, and the humidity was so close, you could cut it with a knife, 01:57:00and Arthur fainted.

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: And--and--and he fainted. And so, the word was out that they're--they're--that they're working so hard, that I'm working people so hard that they're just passing out.

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: And so, it--you know, so it--

BIRDWHISTELL: That's funny.

FORD: But Arthur fainted over there underneath one of the--oh, we were passing them out--(coughs)-- at the election, I think, of AC--ACS--uh, ASCS office, uh, elected. They were electing officers in precincts, you know, and they were having some kind of election. And Arthur was passing out these things at those elections there.

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter) He just went down on you?

FORD: Well, he fainted on me. But what--what it was, it was true, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: Yeah, what we predicted came true.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And it was Combs' desire to help education, that sort of thing, it was-- 01:58:00But it was increasing taxes again.

BIRDWHISTELL: Which is always--

FORD: Tough.

BIRDWHISTELL: Good issue--

FORD: Oh, it's--it's the best. Really, when you get down to it, it's the only issue, people want to keep money in their pocket.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

FORD: Yeah, uh, you can spend it better than government can spend it. Yeah, but you--how much--how much you going to put in that street out there when it need blacktopping? How much you going to put into the highway program, because it gets you from here to Henderson? You know, how much you going to put into that? Well, they're not going to put in anything. Well, if you--if you let most people pay taxes, you couldn't get out of town.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right. And after what the Republicans saw happen to Governor Nunn, it's no wonder they don't want to raise the tax.

FORD: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: So--

[Pause in recording.]

BIRDWHISTELL: Never got out from under that. The executive order was--uh, the spin on that was small business people, barbershops, restaurants, coffee shops, 01:59:00all of the things that would play in the small towns throughout Kentucky that they would, A, have mixing of the races, and B, lose control of their own operations, right?

FORD: Um-hm, that's right.

BIRDWHISTELL: That's--

FORD: And what--it--it was, uh--Terry, it got to the grassroots, which is the small businessman. You know, the barbershop would have to have--if it had two barbers in there, one of them had to be black, or one of them had to be a minority.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: You know? And, uh, they'd lose control. And Combs had done this to them, and the Kennedy's that were Catholics, you know, had done all of this, you know, and Kentucky--west Kentucky was a hotbed of, uh--um, Baptists, and that sort of thing. Even though we have Fancy Farm down here, it was still, uh, more a Protestant district than it was Catholic. This town is 50% Catholic.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right?

FORD: Um-hm.

BIRDWHISTELL: I did not know that.

FORD: Yes sir.

BIRDWHISTELL: I mean, I knew there was a large Catholic population, but I always thought--

FORD: Yeah, it's 50%. And they've got a good bishop here, I like him.

BIRDWHISTELL: Uh-huh?

FORD: He works hard, I spent a whole day with him in a retreat. He brings the priests all in. They talk about worldly things, you know, that sort of thing. And, uh, but, uh, it's 50%. And, uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: So, how did it play here in Owensboro, that executive order?

FORD: Well, it didn't play very well.

BIRDWHISTELL: How did you handle it?

FORD: Well, you couldn't.

BIRDWHISTELL: What did you do? I mean, when these guys--you walk into the coffee shop, and they start harping about it, what do you say?

FORD: Well, I don't really remember what I said, I think I ducked. (laughter)

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter) I'll take this to go!

FORD: Yeah, give me my coffee, and I'll get the hell out of here! (laughter) But, uh, no, we tried to just say it isn't so, you know, what you're seeing is not true. And, uh, so, uh, you just have to understand that this doesn't mean 02:01:00what your--what the, what the rumors say. And you try to explain it, but it was one of those things, like the Red River Gorge.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

FORD: You explain what, what it really would do, and that sort of thing, and the other people were fearful about flooding their lands, and not getting any water, and all of that kind of stuff. So, it was--there's no way to get around the fear of, of me being told, uh, what I can do and what I can't do.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right. Now, when history looks at Wendell Ford, say, on the Red River Gorge, I think most historians later on will say, well, I know he didn't want to destroy Kentucky's beauty, and do this or do that, or-- What--what would you tell historians about Wendell Ford, where Wendell Ford is on race at the time of this executive order, in the '62, 63, where--where do you come down on that?

FORD: Well, let--let--then, I really don't think I had a hard firm issue. 02:02:00There was, uh, African-American black man professor Niblet here--Nisbett. And he was the head of a school in Paducah. I'm not sure, like, Paducah Community College, or for the black people.

BIRDWHISTELL: The west--

FORD: Yeah. Whatever it was down there.

BIRDWHISTELL: The black college in Paducah?

FORD: Yeah. And we--

BIRDWHISTELL: Paducah Junior.

FORD: Yeah, yeah. And, uh, Dad had he and his wife at home for--for dinner. You know, they came by and sat in our living room, and we talked like--and sat at the table--we had--we ate together, and, uh, that was before then.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah?

FORD: And, uh, if you will recall, during my administration, I declared Martin 02:03:00Luther King Day in, uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

FORD: I went up in the, uh, what do you call it, the Secretary of State's reception area, whatever, reception area up on the second floor there.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

FORD: Had them all in, and I signed that proclamation, and uh, in front of all of these people. Couldn't get it through the legislature, wasn't any way to do it. But I signed the proclamation that day. And, uh, I found that in--when, when they--then, that you had some mighty decent, uh, uh, folks that were trying to work things out, and most of the work was being done in Jefferson County. Christian County has a fairly large population. We have some here, not as many as people would think, but I just thought it was a--that Martin Luther King, you had, uh, uh, Senator Powers that was very active with Martin Luther. You had, 02:04:00uh, oh, what was it, Johnson?

BIRDWHISTELL: Lyman Johnson?

FORD: Lyman Johnson, yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: May Street kid.

FORD: Yeah, May Street. Uh, and you had that, uh--oh, what was that little woman's name? Her husband was in the House of Representatives, and she took his place. But anyhow, uh, they were all very active in the legislature. And, uh, they weren't--they were--they were not even pushy about it, they weren't mean about it. They were, uh, persistent, I guess, is a good word. But, uh, I just thought it was the right thing to do to recognize Martin Luther King. I thought his speech uh, in Washington was, uh, very stirring. And, uh--uh, he had a purpose. And, uh, I wasn't going to be one that was going to be standing in 02:05:00front of the courthouse door trying to stop it, because I'd taken a position on busing to private schools, uh, that a child standing on the side of the road wanting an education should be given a ride. That was just my position. And, uh, so, uh, uh, I--I think we--where we lost control of the, uh--of that issue was that everybody thought that they were going to walk in and tell them who to hire, and who not to hire, and that you were no longer, uh, master of your own small business.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And so, uh, when--when that, uh, was out, and there was no--very little--it was all --it's awful hard to try to explain it. People didn't want to listen to you. They'd already made up their mind, that this wasn't going to happen, they weren't going to be for a Democrat, so it was going to be--weren't going to be for anybody Bert Combs was for. It's about, like, tobacco in, in 02:06:00the state today, you know? Gore's not going to get--like Bill Keogh said, I may be the only tobacco farmer in the state that votes for Gore.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: --(coughs)-- And that meant his son may not vote for him, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter) That's--

FORD: So, uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: That includes family.

FORD: That's right, yeah. And so, uh, uh, that's just an issue that you got going on. It--no way to say that they were right on it. The farmers understand that tobacco's not healthy for you, I understand that, but I still use it. And the farmers say, as long as people are going to use it, I want to grow it. And, uh, but, uh, they--this administration with Clinton, and then for Gore to make that big statement to the convention in Chicago, you know, oh, that--that--that, uh-- You know, and Dole tried to play that in Kentucky, and it--he didn't play it very well. But I don't think he--that Bush will have to worry about that. 02:07:00That, uh--(coughs)--

BIRDWHISTELL: These are tough--tough issues to play in politics.

FORD: Yeah, yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: And when you were--when you--you all were dealing with race, especially in the--well, all during the '60s.

FORD: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: Not that it's not a tough issue now, I mean, you had issues in the Senate, and throughout your career that you had to deal with. But this in the '60s, this is--this is a--these are tough, tough calls. And--and I'm interested to--you know, about your father, and having black people into your home. I mean, that--uh, that must've made an impression on you.

FORD: Well, uh, you know, this fellow was, uh, um, intelligent, he was congenial, uh, he--uh, articulate, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: Uh-huh.

FORD: And, uh, uh, his palm of his hand was white. You know, this--and it goes 02:08:00back to my mother's brother, married a Catholic. They come to town on Sunday, and go to mass, stop up and have breakfast, then Aunt Jo go on home, Carl will bring the kids to the Baptist Church, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: And some of them sing in the choir!--(Birdwhistell laughs)-- And I never knew anything. I was ecumenical then, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: And, uh--uh, was I--was I trying to --(coughs)--separate--I mean, keep the school--school separated? We had Western High School here, was all black.

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm

.FORD: Uh, and--and I think they've had a struggle. I mean, I wasn't out beating the drums to integrate, but, uh my--my background and bring--and upbringing, it just didn't seem to--why do we have a difference, you know? Why 02:09:00don't we just try to teach them all the same.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And we found that, uh, even the--it wasn't separate but equal.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

FORD: It was separate, but not equal.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

FORD: And so, if we'd started, uh, teaching, uh, educating our black students early, we wouldn't--they would be more of the, uh, community today than they are, I think.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. That's why this issue interests me, in terms of your--your life and career, because your--your administration comes after Combs and Breathitt, who get--

[Pause in recording.]

FORD: She was --------(??) makes.

BIRDWHISTELL: More--

FORD: If you get it short, it doesn't jingle very much.

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter) What I was saying was that your administration comes after Combs and Breathitt. They get--so far, historians have given them fairly high marks because of the executive order, and because of the civil rights 02:10:00legislation that Breathitt gets passed. He marches with Martin Luther King, or he received Martin Luther King in Frankfurt after the march. Then you have Governor Nunn's administration, which gets very low marks because of the campaigns he ran, and, uh, even though, maybe in his administration, he didn't govern like he--he ran. But then, uh, your administration follows that. And, uh, it's--I was just curious to learn more about your personal position on this, because in the context of, uh, the Jaycees, and your background in terms of progress and good government, you would be in a position to want to modernize things, it seems to me.

FORD: Well, uh, it--it--every once in a while, you've got to have a holding pattern. We did pass ERA.

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm.

FORD: (laughter) If you remember, one vote in the Senate.

BIRDWHISTELL: That's--that's a tough--

FORD: Yeah, tell me about it, tell me about it. But anyhow, uh, and we had some productive--I had, you know, severance tax, I had a lot of things that--

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And--and--and really, you have to decide what is most important, you know? I couldn't pass Martin Luther King holiday, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

FORD: There was no way to do that. So, why waste your, uh, political clout to be, uh, given some accolades in history that you tried, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter) That's a good point.

FORD: So, you--you signed a proclamation, and you advertise it, you know? --(sniffs)--

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And that was symbolic of my personal feeling, and the administration's feeling. You know, we passed ERA. But I needed to do other things, I needed to reorganize, I needed to get the legislature to approve the putting together of 02:12:00the agencies from, what 67 down to nine--

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: --or something like that. But so, what you had to do, whether you liked that or not, you can't do everything, you can be all things to all people. I can tell you--I can't tell you the formula for success, but I can tell you the formula for defeat. And defeat is trying to be all things to all people, and so you're gone.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

FORD: And so, I've had that position--had to make that choice. So, rather than do some of these other things, and making people really unhappy, and having blood on the floor when you--over a political fight that you didn't know whether you could win or not, I wanted to take the position that we needed to reorganize, we needed to change the tax system, we needed to--I gave 40% increase to higher education in my four years, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: Sure.

FORD: We got the University of Louisville into the system. We prevented from getting the same amount of money that UK did because they thought, well, now that we're in, we want you to give the same amount to UK. Well, you weren't raising that kind of money. We're not going to give it to you, you know? You get the same per-student per-capita, whatever that is, you know? But this raising the money at UK, we're not going to give you taxpayers money for what they go out on the street and raise.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

FORD: So, we had those kinds of fights. I had to fight with the community college when I put the pool in, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: That's right.

FORD: Northern Kentucky, we had that cat from down at Murray that came in there, and he had it--I had it fixed for him, and--and--and everybody understood it but him.

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: You know? And he came in there and got mad. Oh, he just kicked, and stomped, and everything. Went out of the governor's office, it was--uh, he wrote poetry. And that's about all he was good for. --(Birdwhistell laughs)-- But anyhow, nevertheless, these things, uh, Terry, I had to make a judgment on.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

FORD: And do you spend your political--see, I had a hard time with severance tax.

BIRDWHISTELL: That's right.

FORD: I--I lost it. Had to go back and get it, and bring it back up, reconsider the vote that was defeated, and then pass it. And so, I had that. And then, if you think I was in the fight with Martin Luther King Day, and civil rights, and all of that kind of stuff, maybe that's--you know, I--it's just what--your short period of time, now, if you're going to be there whole year, after year, after year, like we are in Washington, you can take things on, because you can get rid of one, and start on another one. But here, it's condensed, and you've got to do it all in one time. And it's very difficult to prepare a legislature to absorb all of these things before they arrive.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right, right.

FORD: We even had John Barry's bottle bill, you know? (laughter)

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter) Um-- Yeah. The, uh--so, the night of the election 02:15:00in '63, when those returns start coming in looks uh--what happens now --------(??), they got and then it starts--

FORD: Oh yeah, it--it, uh, all of the counties, they were carrying them normal and that sort of thing and--(coughs)-- that was east Kentucky, you know, and they were doing very well, and they figured that the normal--if they were normal there, it'd be normal other places, and Breathitt is going to win big.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: So, we were sitting down there taking in, uh, uh, the totals. And hell, we started--they started coming this way.

BIRDWHISTELL: Huh.

FORD: We started losing some counties that we shouldn't have lost. And so, we get Foster Ackerman, and everybody back down there to start calling, and holding up the returns, because--you know, to see what the hell was going on. So, they 02:16:00called a lot of counties that just don't report yet, let's see what you got. And so, they start adding it up, and, uh, it looked like he'd won, but hadn't won by any big majority. And so, Breathitt started out on a weak read really.

BIRDWHISTELL: And it was--was that the beginning--was that the beginning of the erosion of west Kentucky in Democratic politics?

FORD: Yes, absolutely, ab--absolutely.

BIRDWHISTELL: And was it race-based?

FORD: I don't think it was race-based, but I think it was that, uh--that Democrats were so liberal that they were going to force us to hire who we--who they--you know, that sort of thing.

BIRDWHISTELL: I see.

FORD: And I think there was some--there were still Democrats, and the yellow dog Democrats, but, uh, this is not the house that we built, you know? And so, it got to be, uh, uh, the rednecks, white socks, and Blue Ribbon Beer boys didn't like it at all.

BIRDWHISTELL: And Louie Nunn, when he would travel in west Kentucky, he started to pick up that, that field.

FORD: No question about it. And he took, not the--not to say the most powerful 02:17:00Democrats, but enough that could organize Democrats for Nunn. And, uh, he, he did that by--and he promised jobs to Democrats. You know, I promised some jobs to Republicans down in the 5th District, and my Democrats didn't like it because I gave--I kept my word.

BIRDWHISTELL: Not only did you promise it, you delivered! (laughter)

FORD: That's right! And, uh, but anyhow, Louie did that down here.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And so, that feather eroded. And Louie was attractive. And, uh, he was a fighter, he--he was a gut fighter, very much so. And so, it was a--I--I'd say, Terry, ha--thinking about it quickly, that could be--that when Louie, uh, did 02:18:00what he did, that's--Henry, instead of carrying it 50,000-55,000, carried it 15,000.

BIRDWHISTELL: Wow.

FORD: And, uh, there was a highway contractor down there, I won't call his name.

BIRDWHISTELL: In west Kentucky?

FORD: Yeah, in west Kentucky. And I could call him, and he could tell me what was going on, and about what was going to happen. And he was always right.

BIRDWHISTELL: Wow.

FORD: And I called him the night before--I was running for lieutenant governor.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

FORD: And I said, uh, to him, uh, "What do you think?" And he said, "Wendell, I believe you're going to be all right, but Henry is in trouble down here, and his margin may not be over 12,000 or 15,000."

BIRDWHISTELL: He called it?

FORD: Called it right on the button.

BIRDWHISTELL: Wow. Wow.

FORD: And so, uh, that, uh--[telephone rings] Yeah, we--we--yeah, 02:19:00you--you--you listen to it going back and write down questions for the next trip.

BIRDWHISTELL: I was curious, you know, one of the big issues in that '63 general election, of course, is Happy Chandler's uh, defection to the Republicans.

FORD: Oh yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: I mean, it's well known.

FORD: Yeah, yeah, no question about that.

BIRDWHISTELL: In his papers, he has papers that he would write to Governor Nunn, and Nunn's people, he signs a long note--(Ford coughs)-- I was--as a--as a leader of the Democratic Party for so long in Kentucky, and maybe, I guess people say you're the--you know, you're the Democratic person in Kentucky politics of the 20th Century--

FORD: Oh well, I'm not sure about that.

BIRDWHISTELL: --what does a defection like Happy Chandler uh, mean to somebody 02:20:00like yourself who took--who worked so hard for a party?

FORD: Of course, it's disappointing, uh, for it to happen. Uh, being in politics, and knowing Happy, you understand it. Happy has never been used to defeat, and, uh, he, uh, I think took care of Earle Clements and Lawrence Weatherby when Lawr--Earle had to stay in Washington when Lyndon Johnson had the heart attack, you know, I think he--Weatherby got beat pretty bad, and I think Earle lost by seven to nine thousand. That's fairly close, but Happy took care of that pretty well. And, uh, I would much prefer you defect to another faction within the party.

BIRDWHISTELL: At least keep it in the family?

FORD: Yeah, keep it in the family than to defect to the other party. Terry, it 02:21:00was not enough if Happy--let's--there's a saying that it's not enough to help--not enough to win by, but it's enough to defeat you. And so, what Happy did here was just--just enough to--because they're loyal. Just like Thelma Stovall, Thelma Stovall had a core of loyal people that would vote for her for anything. About 50,000, 50,000-60,000 at the end. And the more she had in the race, the better it was for Thelma, because she'd always get her core vote. Now, Happy had the same thing.

BIRDWHISTELL: Chandlerites.

FORD: Yeah. And so, they would vote for Happy, or for whoever he asked them to. And so, how many that is, and how many that was, I'm not sure. You can 02:22:00almost tell how many when I ran, I don't remember the total amount, but if you recall, Happy said he's never lost a race when he was in the general election. That's when he was a Democrat, and nominated as a Democrat, he never lost in the general election. He ran as an independent against me.

BIRDWHISTELL: Hm.

FORD: I don't know whether you recall that or not, but he did.

BIRDWHISTELL: OK.

FORD: And so, you look at the total there, that's probably Happy Chandler's core group.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that group.

FORD: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: I'll have to look at that.

FORD: And so, then look at that vote, and see how many he was able to pull off of--

BIRDWHISTELL: So, then he would be able to move that around.

FORD: Now, whether he moved all of them or not, I'm not sure. But, uh, that group was pretty loyal to Happy.

BIRDWHISTELL: And of course Henry Ward would find out four years later that that was still the case.

FORD: Yeah. And see, Henry said, uh, it don't make any difference whether you--Democrats or for me or not, you know, I do that with the cigar. You see 02:23:00who was for me or not, said, I'm going to get enough Republicans to, uh, offset. My daddy looked at him and he said, "Henry, Republicans talk good until the frost falls."

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: "And then they--then they go home to roost."

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter)

FORD: And, uh, that was all my daddy had to say to him, you know? And Dad said--and--and that's exactly what happened.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, yeah.

FORD: And, I felt sorry for Henry's wife, she bought her inaugural gown in July.

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh!

FORD: And after that episode, uh, I was--Ms. Ford and I didn't do anything that would appear that we were so overconfident that we were going to win.

BIRDWHISTELL: I was only in high school, and I could've told Mrs. Ward not to buy the gown. (laughter)

FORD: Well, she did, you know? Went to New York and bought it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Wow, I did not know that.

FORD: Yeah. And I felt sorry for her.

BIRDWHISTELL: Hm.

FORD: And Henry has always been, you know, an editorial writer --

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm.

FORD: --in his politics. And so, he always was, uh--he--he thrived on controversy by writing articles, and editorials, and things like that.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And, uh, so--and Henry, you know, was not--he was in the Senate, State Senate, and he got into some problems there, you know, with his local people. I don't remember all of them, but he sure did, I remember.

BIRDWHISTELL: He sure did.

FORD: Oh, it--uh, Henry was never--and see, Henry wouldn't promise anything. He wouldn't promise anything. And we got him back in the room one night and said, "Henry, promise the road you know you're going to build." You know?

BIRDWHISTELL: (laughter) Why not?

FORD: Yeah! You know you're going to build these roads, you know you're going to blacktop certain roads, promise them, because you won't be lying about it. 02:25:00You'll be telling the truth. So, when X, Y, or Z candidate comes in here, said, "Yes sir, we're going to blacktop that road. We're going to build this new road, we're going to do this, you know? And I'm, when I'm Governor, you'll see that it's done." Well, he was honest about it, because they were going to do it anyhow.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

FORD: Had to do it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

FORD: But he would not do that, even. And so, what do you got? You got a fellow that, uh, couldn't make it. And so, it's uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: And as we'll talk about in another session, that mattered to you, how well Henry Ward--

FORD: Oh, sure!

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, it--it mattered a lot!

FORD: Well, I don't know how it--I don't know how it affected me in the end.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: Whether it was better for me to be in the position I was in, politically.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, yeah. But going in--but before you knew the outcome, you would assume that--that the better he runs, the better it is for you, right?

FORD: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I got into some trouble with him in the fall.

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh, you did?

FORD: Oh yes, I sure did.

BIRDWHISTELL: I don't know that I know that.

FORD: Because the--the people here--I had to disown it publicly. Some people here, and I won't get into that, I don't think it's really part of it, but, uh, they were associated with the large manufacturing company--the large company here.

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm.

FORD: And they put out stickers of Nunn and Ford.

BIRDWHISTELL: Mm.

FORD: And so, they were getting pretty prevalent around.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, I've heard of those.

FORD: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: I don't have one.

FORD: Yeah, yeah, I don't think I have one either, unless it was some of that stuff--

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, we might have to make--

FORD: You might find some in there somewhere. But, uh, uh, Terry that was uh--that--I had two occasions like that. They were getting ready to, uh, uh, 02:27:00support Bob Matthews, because I was getting Chandler's support, because they didn't like Bob because he was so close to Henry, and everybody. And, uh, Jiggs Buckman was running for Governor, and he had all of the Chandlerites for him, and they had all decided they were going to vote for me.

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm.

FORD: And the Ward people got word of it. And so, they came to Bob Matthews and to me and wanted a letter of support for Henry. And if you didn't, then they would slate the one that did, and if we both did, then they would slate neither, and we were on our own. Well, I had to write the letter, because that was the only way I could survive. And Matthews was already that way. You know, 02:28:00and I was just trying to run my race for Lieutenant Governor. And, uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: Wow.

FORD: If I hadn't had to do that, I would've won, I think, by a bigger majority. But--but, uh, as it was, I lost all of the Chandler people that were for Jiggs Buckman.

BIRDWHISTELL: Hm.

FORD: Jiggs got--and Jiggs held out against me pretty hard, too, when I wrote that letter for, uh--supporting Henry against him.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: And he took that to the floor of the State Senate, and, uh, beat me, uh, in a vote on the floor, and, uh, I didn't--before I got adjusted to everything, and, uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: Which takes a little--

FORD: Huh?

BIRDWHISTELL: Which takes a little bit--

FORD: Yeah, and so, uh, it didn't take me long to turn it around.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, yeah.

FORD: But, uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: Wow.

FORD: He beat me at, uh-- He, he beat me at the, uh, pre-legislative 02:29:00conference. And when I got to Frankfurt, I just beat him bad, you know?

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

FORD: But uh, it was--it--I had to--that was a sore spot, and Jiggs never got over that.

BIRDWHISTELL: Hmm.

FORD: I never did, either. But, uh, he should've understood why I did it. But he took it personally. And that's, uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: That's tough in politics.

FORD: Uh-huh.

BIRDWHISTELL: When you take it personally in politics, it, uh--that's tough.

FORD: I don't know whether that belongs to your machine or not.

BIRDWHISTELL: Uh-- Yeah, --------(??). Well, let's stop there. We're at--it's noon.

[End of interview.]