Interview with William T. Young, Sr., March 12, 2001

 BIRDWHISTELL: I thought I saw the other day that uh--your friend John Glenn was on a television--show.

YOUNG: John Gaines?

BIRDWHISTELL: John Glenn.

YOUNG: Oh yeah, I saw him--

BIRDWHISTELL: Did you see him?

YOUNG: Oh he, he was an actor.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, did you see him?

YOUNG: He was in some skit, I saw just a--just a smidgen of him, lend me your pen here a minute.

BIRDWHISTELL: Okay.

YOUNG: Let me make a note to mys--I'll forget it, if I don't.

BIRDWHISTELL: I have a copy of that program if you want to ever--see it, the full thing.

YOUNG: I'd forgotten what uh--what the program was about.

BIRDWHISTELL: It's, it was on a program called 'Frasier.'

YOUNG: 'Frasier,' that's right.

BIRDWHISTELL: And uh--I wasn't home that night, but I stuck a--I stuck a tape in the VCR, but I haven't seen it yet.

YOUNG: Well, if you got a tape of it, I wouldn't mind borrowing it. I don't 00:01:00need the tape, but--

BIRDWHISTELL: I, I'll be happy to.

YOUNG: I saw just a smidgen of it and I'd--I got Miss Young to look at it, but--the little bit I saw, he was very professional.

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm. I'll have to take a look at it, and I'll swing the tape by here for you. I started bringing it today--

YOUNG: He has, he has a lot of poise.

BIRDWHISTELL: He does, doesn't he.

YOUNG: Yeah, yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: He does. Quite a guy. Uh--I saw Dr. Singletary this morning, he said he'd--visited with you over the weekend.

YOUNG: Yeah, I saw o--Otis, yeah, he's, he is a good friend.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. And--I'm always remind of--that uh--search to bring . . . Dr. Singletary here, and--

YOUNG: Yeah, I participated in that.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, that was--

YOUNG: I didn't do anything, I just showed up here and there.

BIRDWHISTELL: --(laughs)--

YOUNG: We took him fishing down there at Albert Clay's fishing--place down there in Florida.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

YOUNG: And I remember going down with him, so--

BIRDWHISTELL: So you all had a pretty good time down there.

YOUNG: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: --(laughs)-- Well, I'm glad you convinced him to come here.

YOUNG: Well, I like Otis, I think he was able.

BIRDWHISTELL: He was, he was. I enjoy his company. Uh--today we're scheduled to talk about uh--you getting into the--thoroughbred business. And remember when I, we first did, we did our first session I asked you how far it was from uh--your boyhood home out to Overbrook Farm.

YOUNG: Not very far.

BIRDWHISTELL: You said about eight miles--(laughs)--

YOUNG: That's right, that's right.

BIRDWHISTELL: But I wa--you know, what we've done in those interviews is sort of--take that journey again, you know, from your boyhood--

YOUNG: Yeah, yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: --through all of these uh, uh--education, and your business development and your family, and, and all the enterprises you've been involved in, and now here we are--back to where we--I asked you that first question, and part in, in jest, but, in part it was a serious question because that is quite a 00:03:00journey, to go from a, Aurora Avenue, and uh--to Overbrook Farm, and--be standing in the winner's circle at uh--at Churchill Downs and beyond.

YOUNG: Well I haven't, I hadn't looked at it at uh--in that context but uh--I expect if you review everyone's life, including your own, that uh--if you're successful at all, you, you, you move away from where you started.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

YOUNG: In some--it's onward and upward, I reckon.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well it should be --------(??)

YOUNG: But we don't, we don't stop and think about that, everything happens so gradually. I will say at eighty-three, it's get, it [inaudible], it's not as gradual as it once was. It just seems like time flies away.

BIRDWHISTELL: The weeks are shorter, huh?

YOUNG: But my, my entry in participation in the--thoroughbred industry is uh, is a little bit of an abnomaly [sic] in the, in the sense that, and in another 00:04:00way it isn't uh--I think when everyone gets to be about sixty--they start think about retirement or the future. And it's gotten to be more of a consideration in my generation, and yours, that it has in the past, because everybody is living longer. It probably represents the greatest opportunity, in some sense, in this country uh--as well as present a myriad of problems. You got to take care of all those people.

BIRDWHISTELL: That's right.

YOUNG: And uh--I reckon we sold the uh--Royal Crown business about 1985, if I--think correctly. In eighty-five I was--that's seventeen years ago, I was what, about--sixty-five, sixty, sixty-five. So I had begun to think about--what 00:05:00I would do as I got older--that would be of interest. And early in that, without thinking it all the way through as to where it--things were thought out in advance and--with the business plan and that type of thing--[talking to someone in the room]--who have you got, what do you--

LADY: --------(??)----

YOUNG: Hmm?

LADY: I just put some on the floor --------(??)

YOUNG: Oh, okay. It was with that thought, but I had shown a little bit of interest in, in horses--and now my dates are--my dates are a little ambiguous--I reckon early on that uh--and I'm talking maybe when I was about fifty or so, uh, Bob Green who is, who was the manager of Green Tree Farm, no connection between, that was the Whitney's, Whitney propriety.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right?

YOUNG: That was a friend of mine. And--I think I owned a horse or two with him. He owned horses on the side, just a few--he and Patricia, Patricia was the daughter of--John of uh--Hal Price Headly the founder of Keeneland and probably one of the old time great horseman of this era--

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

YOUNG: --area. And we owned one or two horses together and raced them, but nothing really came of that. And I'm not sure that my interest was particularly whetted--in that direction.

BIRDWHISTELL: Was that the first person you ever owned horses with?

YOUNG: I'd--either he or--either, either it was Bob, or Alec Campbell. And Alec is a life-long friend. Alec is ten years my junior, almost exactly, and he has been in love with horses since he was ten years old.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

YOUNG: And--he still is. And I owned a horse or two with him. And in fact 00:07:00when I became more serious, when--I reckon around 1980, or a little earlier uh--we owned quite a few horses together. And later, why--we separated our interest because I was--it had become a major activity for me. And uh--I'm not a partnership type of fellow.

BIRDWHISTELL: Once you get into it--

YOUNG: Whether I expressed that or not uh--if I were advising a young man--who has ambitions to do something on his own, my experience, or at least my philosophy is that you take enormous risk--as to your ultimate success if you, if you start out in partners. The general feeling that I've picked up 00:08:00when--people are partners, each partner is leaning on the other fellow for success. And the only way you can achieve success, is to lean on yourself. And I don't know whether that's a truism or not, but I think it is, and throughout my life I have avoided partners.

BIRDWHISTELL: Probably --------(??)

YOUNG: The only thing worse than a partner is a relative.

BIRDWHISTELL: --(laughs)--

YOUNG: And I have been fortunate in I've, I've avoided both--(Birdwhistell laughs)--but that's, that's, that's incidental to the--to th--to the horse business, but--about back nineteen-seventy--two, is I became a little more--affluent, if that's a word, having been raised in the city, I bought a little farm, with a farmhouse on it, that could be restored. And uh--that was 00:09:00particularly--appealing to my wife. And what I bought, I think was--a hundred twenty acres from, from Lucas Combs, that's Sid Combs--father. And it was located out there up on the Hickman Creek, right in the heart of what is today Overbrook Farm.

BIRDWHISTELL: Now was the entrance off of Armstrong Mill, or off of--

YOUNG: It was off of uh--Delong Road, Either that or the Walnut Hill, but I think it was, I think it was Delong Road, it was down towards the Tates Creek side.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, because when we toured the farm out there uh--a year or so ago uh--we saw that cottage. And--I think that's the one you're talking about.

YOUNG: Well, when I, when I bought that, I had, didn't have horses in mind at all--

BIRDWHISTELL: It was just looking at a --------(??)

YOUNG: --it was just an activity and uh--I've always had a, a lot of energy. I 00:10:00think it's manufactured energy, I don't think it's natural, but--I like to be doing something. And this little farmhouse there, this little cottage, although very modest, it was beautifully proportioned. And it was a reflection of the influx, I believe of the Virginia people--that settled Central Kentucky, and I'm sure it was just a tenant's house or something and it was--on the first floor it had a--what did it have? It had a--the second was non-existent, it was just an attic. And I reckon they put children up there. And downstairs they had about two rooms and a kitchen. Well the kitchen was in the basement. They all cooked in an open fire when I bought the house, the basement was just clay. But it uh--built in about, I estimated that--about seventeen-ninety-two, and so it was 00:11:00a lot of fun, took us three or four years to uh, put it back just the way we wanted, bit by bit. And--

BIRDWHISTELL: So did standing up there on that land--

YOUNG: What did you say?

BIRDWHISTELL: As you were working on the--on the, the house, and you were out there standing on that land, at different times, would you then just--kind of look around and walk the land and start thinking about --------(??)

YOUNG: Oh I didn't have any grandiose notions, I don't think. I've done a lot of building, and I have always had people with me that could build. They were either carpenters or--or one stage above a carpenter, if you have, whatever that is, but uh--this was a beautiful track of land--

BIRDWHISTELL: It sure is.

YOUNG: --and I don't think that--Lucas Combs and his family had been on that land in fifty years. They had a tenant on there and uh--he looked like a tenant 00:12:00out of one of William Faulkner's--

BIRDWHISTELL: Really?

YOUNG: --books, and--

BIRDWHISTELL: Were they raising--tobacco?

YOUNG: Whether their name was Snopes or not, I don't know.

BIRDWHISTELL: --(laughs)-- Were they raising tobacco out there?

YOUNG: Well they raised a little tobacco and it was--

BIRDWHISTELL: Other crops.

YOUNG: --to get to it you had to cross the creek, had to ford the creek.

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh really?

YOUNG: So, it was--it was an interesting piece of property and uh--we fixed it up beautifully, and it's about--as I say, I think it was a hundred or a hundred and twenty acres. And--I reck--I don't know when we finished that, we never, I don't think we ever spent the night out there. Later on we'd have, we've had--over the years, maybe several little parties out there. But that really was just uh, uh--an artistic to d--endeavor, more or less to--expose ourselves to country life in a sense, and, and create something uh--worthwhile. We 00:13:00restored--an historic--building, even though it was extremely modest, and about that time, I did--become more serious with horses. I reckon that started in the late seventies, and--but I never did have a grandiose plan, but I always looked at it. Alec and I, we owned horses, I forget the dates, but we owned horses up together until--maybe the late, late seventies, or eighties, I forget, and then we uh--we split our horses and--went our separate ways as it were, we still remain very close friends until today.

BIRDWHISTELL: How do you split the horses? How do you, did, did you just put them in the hat and draw them out?

YOUNG: Well uh, we d--we had them appraised, as I remember, and--we didn't have 00:14:00any, it wasn't any problem separating them, he took this one, I took that one.

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh, I see.

YOUNG: And uh, and one or two, I think maybe we sold at auction and this and that, it wasn't any big deal, there weren't many horses involved.

BIRDWHISTELL: Hmm. Where had, you kept the horses, I--did he have a place where you kept them?

YOUNG: Well we kept them, he, he, he--I forget where we kept them, Terry, we uh--he has a hundred acre farm out at--off of Todds c--Road. I forget the name of that section out there, what do they call it? Doug Gay owned a lot of the land out there. I forget the name of that area. But he had a farm and then he had another farm, just--oh I c--maybe a mile away, and uh--I forget the name of the veterinarian--what was that boys name? I can't think of him, he's still around here. But anyway, we boarded horses there with him.

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh I see.

YOUNG: But he was just a small number.

BIRDWHISTELL: I know who you're talking about.

YOUNG: And, and they weren't--very fancy horses either. But--at some point I decided to go into the horse business without a re--without thinking it through in a, in a formal sense. But uh--from day one, I went into it with the idea that it was just another business that requ--required investment, and uh--management, and uh, uh--performance if you ma--made it grow. And uh--I had been persuaded--first let me say that I've a--I never had any particular interest in horses, so I don't have a background. People laugh at me today when I say I'm not a horseman. But I almost think that was an asset in getting into the, the business. Uh, I may have taken a different tack today d--if I knew 00:16:00then what I know today. But I did know that all the businesses that you undertake, the odds for success are, are very low, and uh--there is nothing easy about it. And you just have to go in and uh--by dint of uh--hard work, but that alone won't do it, but--

BIRDWHISTELL: No.

YOUNG: --but, but by a dint of effort and--day-to-day of planning and what not you uh--you make it succeed. But I'd always been lead to believe that--from, from horsemen friends that I've known all my life, that the, that the first way, way to go was, was to start with a good mare. And uh, we literally went out and bought good mares. Now everyone says they go out and buy the best mares, but they don't really do it. It takes a real financial decision--to buy a good 00:17:00mare. There is no way to buy a good mare then, or before, or now, without paying market price. And at that time, we uh, we bought uh--we bought several million dollar mares. Well as Bunker Hunt says a million dollars is not what it used to be, but it's still a lot of money and the only way that I could judge, perhaps as to--the quality of what I was buying, would be fact that I was paying a top price. Now that doesn't always assure you--that you're getting the top quality.

BIRDWHISTELL: Would the people who were uh--

YOUNG: Now, I, over the years, I've bought a little art, some good art. I went through an art phase and--just for personal satisfaction I did, but--I bought 00:18:00everything at auction, either at Sotheby's or Christie's, and my rationale was that if I paid a big price for a painting, that there was always an under bidder, and basically those sales are frequented by the art experts of the world. So unless the, unless the uh--auction is rigged--(Birdwhistell laughs)-- and they can rig them, it's unlikely, but they can rig them--

BIRDWHISTELL: That price is assured, uh-huh.

YOUNG: --that you either have an expert pushing the price up to a certain level, or you have some fool like me, where we just got into a bidding contest, and uh--I, I applied that same philosophy to horses.

BIRDWHISTELL: Not--as an aside, when did you start buying art, did, was that --------(??)

YOUNG: Buying what?

BIRDWHISTELL: Art. Was that--

YOUNG: I'd have to research myself, and uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: But, at some point, maybe in the sixties, or something like that?

YOUNG: It was back in the sixties and seventies, and uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: Now these horses, these mares you bought, were those bought at auction as well?

YOUNG: Well some were and some were bought privately and I was always nervous when I bought them privately. Uh, like all businesses and maybe more, more than most, the horse business is loaded with hustlers. Everybody is out there trying to sell something, and when they sell something they have to, they have to exaggerate, or at least be animated in the presentation of--when I sold my peanut butter I've, I, I've, I represented as the finest peanut butter in the world.

BIRDWHISTELL: You brought chandeliers to prove it too.

YOUNG: That's right. So you, you--but a person, even today, when they want to breed to 'Storm Cat,' somebody has a mare, they represent to us, this is the finest mare that, not only I have, but--maybe you'll find anywhere.

BIRDWHISTELL: --(laughs)-- Right.

YOUNG: Well, we make our own evaluations of the mares, and most mares we turned down, we turned down, but that's, that's because of his uh--the great demand for him.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

YOUNG: But, but I bought privately--I reckon some of the best mares I bought, I bought privately through Bill Lockridge

BIRDWHISTELL: Bill Lockridge

YOUNG: Bill Lockridge was a, a veterinarian from Oklahoma. He always had a hard time here, in Central Kentucky, but he was a brilliant horse--horseman, in my opinion, and he bilk [sic] uh, Ashford Stud.

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh, okay.

YOUNG: And his principal client was Bob Hefner. Bob Hefner was a geologist--very attractive guy, and he really discovered--the deep natural gas 00:21:00wells in Oklahoma, this is in recent years, within twenty-f--the last twenty-five years or so. It was called the Anadarko--Basin. And uh--that boosted his paper net worth, way up. He was supposed to have been worth at one time--seven or eight hundred million dollars--

BIRDWHISTELL: Wow.

YOUNG: --and he was a Lockridge--he was--Lockridge--that was his main client, and they developed Ashm--Ashm--Ashford Stud--together, and uh--when they w--Bill would come to me with mares to be bought, I would always insist that they buy 00:22:00half of them.

BIRDWHISTELL: Why did you do that?

YOUNG: And I figured that uh--that Lockridge wouldn't uh--screw Hefner.

BIRDWHISTELL: --(laughs)-- It sort of--

YOUNG: That's being a little vulgar, I reckon, but--

BIRDWHISTELL: No, you were trying to--

YOUNG: --but that was my insurance.

BIRDWHISTELL: --that was your insurance policy.

YOUNG: That was my insurance

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

YOUNG: And we bought a package of m--of mares, we bought--Terlingua we bought Sinigida and we bought Three Troikas. Terlingua was a--was the first horse that Lucas ever bought or trained.

BIRDWHISTELL: Really?

YOUNG: Thoroughbred. Yeah, she was a near champion. Sinigida I forget her credentials, but they were very good. And 'Three Troikas' had won the Arc de Triomphe in Paris, I believe twice. These were, were top mares. And the total 00:23:00cost was several million dollars, I forget what it was, but I took half of them.

BIRDWHISTELL: So you split the--

YOUNG: So we uh, uh--I believe the arrangement was that we simply co-own the produce. Uh, the other way would have been to have taken every other foals or something, but I forget the detail, but I think it was, that was it. Well in the meantime uh--things work around. If you don't expose yourself to something happening, nothing is going to happen. Well what happened in this case was both for the good and the bad, it was for bad for Lockridge and uh--Hefner and good for me. And actually what happened, at, at, at Hefner whom I--very much like and admire, he got himself too far extended. As I remember the details of--I 00:24:00never had the intimate details, but as he would discover this deep gas, he would borrow against that--to pick up other leases. And uh--I forget, I think, the gas, natural gas price took a tumble from--eight or ten dollars a thousand cubic feet down to two dollars. And what it did in essence, it, it plain broke him.

BIRDWHISTELL: It just cut, cut him out, cut it out from under him.

YOUNG: So, Hefner did and Ashford did not fell in the horse business, they fell in the gas business. And most of those loans was with--was through that uh--Penn Square Bank. Do you remember--is, you're too young then?

BIRDWHISTELL: No, I remember.

YOUNG: Well they went brank [sic] and behind them you had the Continental Illinois and, and Chicago, and they went broke. Well, when they f--when, when, when Lockridge and--Hefner found themselves in the shape, they came and 00:25:00approached me uh, uh--about buying their interest. They were trying to liquidate all the assets they had, and I did. So I wound up with a hundred percent ownership. Uh--'Turlingua' as I recall was in foal to birth Storm Bird.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

YOUNG: The idea with these three mares, was to, was to mate them with Storm Bird whom they had bought--in England, that is Hefner and Lockridge had paid twenty-eight million. It was a record price for that time.

BIRDWHISTELL: It sounds like it.

YOUNG: But anyway, these--so we bred Terlingua to Storm Bird and she was carrying Storm Cat.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right.

YOUNG: And we m--and--we bred Sinigida to Storm Bird and she was carrying Storm Star who became the stake--greatest stake winner in uh--in England. That was a 00:26:00filly and I believe she is still on the farm. I don't know whether she is still alive or not, I don't know. But uh--she has been an important mare, foundation mare for us, and then Three Troikas which was such a--fabulous--European horse, never produced anything of note.

BIRDWHISTELL: Really?

YOUNG: So--

BIRDWHISTELL: Two out of three.

YOUNG: --anyway, I wound up with uh--with two great mares, and uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: When you started buying the mares, was the--how was, where was the price of uh--thoroughbreds at that point? Was that--

YOUNG: Well I'll say a million dollars was the top price on a mare.

BIRDWHISTELL: That was being--that was when the prices were--escalating, wasn't it?

YOUNG: Well I came in--I c--I c--the prices were high. W--when I came, became active in establishing the horse business, the market was p--proceeding to its high, which was about 1985.

BIRDWHISTELL: That's what I was thinking, that it was on the --------(??) So when you --------(??)

YOUNG: --(coughs)--Which, which brings me to a point--

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm.

YOUNG: The only propitious time to go into any business, in my opinion, I'm just talking about ordinary people--

BIRDWHISTELL: Sure.

YOUNG: --going into ordinary businesses is now, you can't wait for the market to go down or up. It never does what you want it to do--(Birdwhistell laughs)--and you just see if you, if you're in, if you're--at a position in life and time in life to go into business, the time to do it is right then.

BIRDWHISTELL: Just do it.

YOUNG: The market's up, the market's down that--you have to be able to perform either way. So I'd say that we bought all our horses at a p--at a very high price.

BIRDWHISTELL: When you were--

YOUNG: And--

BIRDWHISTELL: --when you were buying them uh--you had to have some place to--put them. So, had you already started--

YOUNG: Well, we put them out on that hundred acres then, I'd, we, we went ahead and developed that. And, that's when I started--looking at land around me. If something would come up, or it looked like it could be bought--everything I have out there is an expansion of that original one-hundred twenty acres.

BIRDWHISTELL: So you just developed that around it.

YOUNG: And events--eventually we, we accumulated uh--oh I think sixteen-hundred acres. And one of the reasons that we e--expanded in that location, is that it was right next to Lexington. It not only was eight miles from my home, which was convenient--and appealing, uh, I felt--and we had to pay market prices for 00:29:00those tracts of land that we bought, I felt we could never pay too much--for land, in that location. If I had done the same thing at Woodford County, or even two or three or four miles out for where I was, they'd be worth a fraction of what they are today, that land.

BIRDWHISTELL: Hmm. Did you ever consider just buying existing horse farm?

YOUNG: No, I never did.

BIRDWHISTELL: That wasn't, that didn't appeal to you?

YOUNG: No, because a lot of the appeal, the activity of that was, was, was developing it myself.

BIRDWHISTELL: What are the nearest horse farms to Overbrook?

YOUNG: Well the--Juddmonte is sort of across or down, across of, across the road and down, and that was the old uh--raised, they raised the standard bred horsed down there. What was that--name of that farm? It is the corner of 00:30:00uh--Delong Road and Richmond Road, Old Richmond Road.

BIRDWHISTELL: Okay.

YOUNG: It'll come to me. And a lady who lived in New York uh--owned it. And later Khalid Abdullah bought it, and it became Juddmonte Farm and he bought some other farms around there. And--Hilary Boone bought the--farm across the road from me and developed Wi--Wimbledon. But basically there were no horse farms in, in th--I reckon it's the south east segment of, of the county.

BIRDWHISTELL: That's what I was thinking, that--

YOUNG: Now there are several.

BIRDWHISTELL: They followed you out there?

YOUNG: Well, there's not that many out there. If think they did. The land was available. The, the town has always in my lifetime expanded towards the Kentucky River to the South East.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

YOUNG: And I think someday that uh--Lexington will be solid from where it is 00:31:00now to the Kentucky River.

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh, you do?

YOUNG: Uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: Hmm.

YOUNG: My feeling has always been, that the best real estate in Fayette County is right here on the south east--edge of the town.

BIRDWHISTELL: So you--

YOUNG: Which is an extension of the old Henry Clay Farm.

BIRDWHISTELL: That's right, that's right.

YOUNG: If you're going to buy a house, I would tell you to buy it out here in the east end, out here--Chevy Chase, or Ashland Park, or--somewhere out there.

BIRDWHISTELL: I've moved as close to you as I could get.

YOUNG: Did you?

BIRDWHISTELL: I'm in the one hundred --------(??)

YOUNG: Well, I was born out there, see? And--I was raised on McDowell road which is right next to the Henry Clay mansion, but uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: Right, right, and I told you I lived on Aurora one time --------(??)

YOUNG: The fact is so obvious that I am amazed that uh--people will come in and spend a fortune--

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

YOUNG: --on a farm, either an existing farm or building a farm, in some spot in 00:32:00the county, and in the foreseeable future you can never see a--the town pushing it. The only think that'll raise the price of land, inherently, is uh--is the demand as a--for a higher use, and a higher use, of course, is uh--residential or business or whatnot. So I've never been uncomfortable about buying the land.

BIRDWHISTELL: Were you concerned though that uh--on the one hand, buying there and expanding your farm there, uh, was a good--thing in terms of future development of Lexington. But on the other hand, wouldn't that same development encroach upon your--horse farm?

YOUNG: That's a gross misunderstanding that the Central Kentuckians have. Nothing is ever going to happen to the horse farm. All the horse farm--only inconvenience ever put to a horse farm, they got to move out another mile. That's no problem, if--you don't have anything to tear down. Now this last 00:33:00year, we bought seven hundred acres, a half a mile--to the south of us--on Shelby Lane. Beautiful piece of land. And uh--we bought it--for two reasons, first the guy wanted to sell it--maybe three reasons, second, he, he wanted very little for it, in my judgment as to its worth, and three, it gave us a safety expansion valve, if we ever decided to move part of--Overbrook. Now, as long as I am living, we'll never develop an acre of Overbrook. But what my heirs do, my son and daughter, and grand children uh--they are not hamstring about--the fact that your land is next to the city, and has a high value, it doesn't mean you have to develop it. If you need money, you can go down there and borrow, you 00:34:00borrow on it, and you borrow on extremely high value. Then, if you do want to sell it, the market is there.

BIRDWHISTELL: In terms of uh--the total price you paid for the land at Overbrook, and what it's worth today, what, what is that --------(??)

YOUNG: Oh I would say it's tripled.

BIRDWHISTELL: Tripled?

YOUNG: Or more than that, it depends on what y--what arbitrary price you put on it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, probably more than that, I guess.

YOUNG: See, of that original sixteen hundred acres there are nine hundred or a thousand acres, is now in the urban service area--it's in the city.

BIRDWHISTELL: Now was that in the urban services area --------(??)

YOUNG: No, a few hundred acres were.

BIRDWHISTELL: Uh-huh. But it has since expanded?

YOUNG: Yes.

BIRDWHISTELL: --------(??) in?

YOUNG: Yes.

BIRDWHISTELL: Hm. Was the--Heartland Development, was that part of--w--were you involved in that --------(??)

YOUNG: We're are next to Hartford, no, I had nothing to do with that was Lucas Comb's main farm.

BIRDWHISTELL: Okay.

YOUNG: And his son--Sid for years tried to sell the damn thing. And he finally 00:35:00did sell it to a group in Louisville. And I think Mr. George Kerry had a sliver of it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Okay.

YOUNG: But it was a good purchase, it was, it was within the service area.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

YOUNG: And they developed, maybe they--as high a class a subdivision as there is in Lexington, so we are right adjacent to that.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right. I didn't know that--

YOUNG: But Over--Overbrook, for all practical purposes is in the city of Lexington.

BIRDWHISTELL: Um-hm. Wow.

YOUNG: And all that does is give us insurance, if we really needed financial help, we could borrow--you know, a significant amount of money against that land. Initially, we might have paid a thousand or two extra an acre to buy it. 00:36:00But my point is, if we've bought it out in the county uh--there would have been little, or no appre--no appreciation.

[End Tape 1, Side 1]

[Begin Tape 1, Side 2]

BIRDWHISTELL: As you started buying the land for Overbrook, I assume early on, it didn't get much notice. I mean, somebody might have a tract of land for sale, and you would go buy it, or--

YOUNG: Well it wasn't any big--it was done over a s--over a--period of years.

BIRDWHISTELL: But overtime, when you, people saw that you were developing this--farm, did the price of the surrounding land started to go up?

YOUNG: I don't think so, I don't think so, I don't--I think that uh--I don't really think so, no.

BIRDWHISTELL: How many tracts --------(??)

YOUNG: Oh I'd say thirty.

BIRDWHISTELL: Thirty. Wow.

YOUNG: W--we buy an acre, we buy two hundred acres, whatever--came up. And uh--we now have twenty-three hundred acres with that new acquisition.

BIRDWHISTELL: As I told you, I had the--good fortune to, to uh--have lunch out to Overbrook one day, you weren't able to--

YOUNG: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: --come that day, and, and we had a tour of Overbook, and it's absolutely--stunning as everybody told you, I'm sure. But we also went over to the new--farm, and saw how--your were developing it with a--contour and--

YOUNG: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: --and uh--I guess the question I'm, I, what I wanted you to talk a little bit about is that uh--future generations--listening to your tape, and, and reading your transcript, might not understand uh--the difference between just going out there and building a barn, on a tract of land, and the type of development you did uh--for Overbrook and what you're doing for your new--farm. It's quite a, it's quite an o--operation, really --------(??)

YOUNG: Well it is, it uh--I learned a long time ago that uh--or at least form 00:38:00the opinion, that if you uh, if you cut corners on anything you're trying to build, or develop, that's the biggest mistake you can make. Uh, I don't know how to put it exactly--we built a fraternity house out here at the university last year, or two years ago, and it cost a lot of money, and the first thing that we, w--we, the building committee wanted to do was to cut back, cut back, cut back--(coughs)--cheapen this, cheapen that. And when we got through with that exercise, we cut back the cost maybe ten percent. But we'd have cut the beauty and the longevity of the construction ninety percent. --(Birdwhistell 00:39:00laughs)-- When you go to cut something back, you never cut back on the building, you never cut back on the foundations. --(Birdwhistell laughs)--And--that means, in my opinion, that it'll always hold it's value, and the same thing in developing a farm, that seven hundred acres uh--would just make as good a farm as you can ever--you'll ever find in, in, in the bluegrass and we didn't cut a corner. If something--if the way, if they t--if there, if the, if, if the land had to be--reshaped and--here and there, for optimum beauty, and utility, we did it. We never c--we never cut on anything. When we get through we will have a gem--that everyone want, and that, that's what raises 00:40:00your value. And--

BIRDWHISTELL: --------(??)

YOUNG: --I don't know how else to put it, but--that, that's what I have--we've basically have not cut a corner, at uh, at Overbrook, we've taken a long time to do it, and as we--as our horse operation, the key is the, is the horse operation. Uh, we're talking about the tail right now, and not the dog. You don't have to have a farm to be in the horse business.

BIRDWHISTELL: --(laughs)-- Right.

YOUNG: The greatest example of that is the Phipps family, they don't own any land down here.

BIRDWHISTELL: Really?

YOUNG: And over the last hundred years, they have had a superb stable, and they simply board their horses out, uh.

BIRDWHISTELL: So why do you have a farm?

YOUNG: Hmm?

BIRDWHISTELL: So why do you have a farm?

YOUNG: Well y--y--yet--y--the only reason you have a farm is uh, is your own self gratification. When I die--I know that in my lifetime we created Overbrook 00:41:00Farm. Now we didn't give God any help in beautifying the land, that's not it. It was a pretty place to begin with--

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

YOUNG: --but we did make, we did make that environment a little more attractive than it was and basically we have protected it from abuse--assuming development a lot of times is an abuse. And uh--so I think that depends on what one's interest is. I've got as much pleasure out of--developing Overbrook Farm as I have at racing the horses.

BIRDWHISTELL: That's why I was talking about the --------(??)

YOUNG: See, I am not a nut about horses, I don't really know anything about them. And--but I did conclude that if you're going to participate in any kind of agricultural activity, in this part of the world, that the only thing to do it with is the thoroughbred horse--tobacco included. And today at Overbrook we 00:42:00raise nothing. We have no in--that we, we have no crops, we have no animals, except the thoroughbred, and we don't have any animals except ours.

BIRDWHISTELL: Hmm. See that's why I asked you about--

YOUNG: But that's about, that's, that was an objective as we went along.

BIRDWHISTELL: But that's why I ask you about the tail, because I thought you really liked the farm, and I --------(??)

YOUNG: Well that's right, and what--

BIRDWHISTELL: And I like it, I mean it's a beautiful --------(??)

YOUNG: Well, I don't spend a lot of time out there, but it was uh--it's just like when we built the warehouse--the last warehouse that we built, that my son built, is as nice warehouse building as I have ever seen anywhere.

BIRDWHISTELL: Really?

YOUNG: So I don't have to be ashamed of it, it's out there on a prominent location, you know where it is, on West Main. But we built it so it would--with a coat of paint, it would be just as utilitarian a hundred years from now as it is today, and nothing going, it's not, it's not going to wear out. And, and at 00:43:00the same time, I think, we've treated the environment. I think this building we're in now, is a big warehouse building, but I think it's attractive.

BIRDWHISTELL: It is.

YOUNG: It's not an eyesore.

BIRDWHISTELL: No.

YOUNG: And uh--it also means that it, it's easier for us to get business in this p--facility. And--I think that all government buildings, and all university buildings should be built to the highest standard. One of the best building, b--the interesting thing about the depression, there was more good construction in Washington, and everywhere else in this country, during the thirties, than any other time. First it was cheap to do, you had beautiful--artisans that could do the work. You take the old Federal Courthouse building on Bar Street down here. It's still one of the fi--built in the--depression, still one of the finest structures in Lexington.

BIRDWHISTELL: --------(??)

YOUNG: They used stone, they used copper, and they used beautiful architecture.

BIRDWHISTELL: That's nice, that's nice. We have a collection--I'll have to show to you sometime at UK, it's called the Goodman-Paxton Collection, and it's a--collection of photographs and information about--WPA buildings in Kentucky, in all one hundred twenty counties. And we have those photographs, and now we are scanning them and putting them up on the internet. And people can see those--wonderful buildings, school buildings, any kinds of public buildings and, and uh--that were built during the, the depression.

YOUNG: I can't think of a good building out there at the University of Kentucky until they built that library. Then we built the S.A.E. house.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right. Right. I kind of like the uh, the uh--old Ag Experiment Station, Scovell Hall, it, it had a nice look to it at one point. It faces 00:45:00Limestone Street.

YOUNG: Which one is that?

BIRDWHISTELL: At the corner of Limestone and Washington, the old--Agricultural Experiment Station?

YOUNG: Well it's a nice building.

BIRDWHISTELL: But they added on to it and it sort of lost its--

YOUNG: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: --its proportions. But--nothing compares, certainly to the library.

YOUNG: There's a dorm out there at UK built the same time on Washington--Avenue, facing the--agricultural building. It's probably the prettiest dorm they built.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right, yeah that, that, that whole quadrangle was kind of nice, but uh--

YOUNG: But anyway, we got into the horse business, back, as I was saying the late seventies and--we just did it a horse at a time. And uh, in the early years we--uh--well the second policy, besides buying good mares uh--which people always say they do, but I don't think they do, uh, is an old saying in the 00:46:00g--that I've heard all my life, you, you breed the best of the best and hope for the best. So uh--we, we had the same attitude on the, on stallions. And the policy from day one, and we could afford it, I did have some, enough capitol to go into the business, but you're not talking about the vast sums that you're talking to--you, you hear today, they come in here and spend these, spend the money. We did it gradually over years. But uh--the policy we've had on breeding, uh, is common sense, as far as I am concerned. Uh, we breed every mare--it's our policy today, to which ever stallion our people deem to be the best--combination, regardless of whether we own the stallion or regardless of 00:47:00the price of the stallion.

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh really, hmm. Now how do you determine that?

YOUNG: Well that's a question of judgment, but we got good people out here, and uh, uh--like anything else, uh, a cheap stallion out here can come up with a good horse, the odds are against it. That's the reason people pay four hundred thousand dollars for a season, to, uh--to Storm Cat. They could easily breed to another horse we have out there is Pioneering. I think he's closely bred to--Storm Cat, for seventy-five hundred dollars.

BIRDWHISTELL: Really. Hmm.

YOUNG: And the stallion shares that we bought early on, were just like our mare, we bought h--I had two shares in Northern Dancer, he was the Storm Cat of that era. I wound up with two shares. That mean I can breed twice every year 00:48:00to him. I had a share in Nijinsky. I had a share in, uh, Blushing Groom. I had a share in Secretariat. I forget some of the other, but--the shares that we did buy, read like who's who. Now the shares that we were talked into buying occasionally on a freshly syndicated horse--our experience the first ten years or so, was zero. Not one of them panned out.

BIRDWHISTELL: Really?

YOUNG: So I became very skeptical about buying, we rarely even today, will buy a newly syndicated horse. There are exception, we bought a share in A.P. Indy, and I did that as a favor, really to e--to--Will Farish--

BIRDWHISTELL: Really?

YOUNG: --he called me two or three times, and I finally bought one and it's turned out that I made a good buy. I'd have to think, going beyond that, they are, they are two or three others that uh--that we bought. But there again, on the shares that we bought of the proven stallions, like the ones I named, we did nothing but make money on it. Yeah I had two shares of Mr. Prospector. But it takes, it takes a lot of courage to do that. And we did it on a small scale, it's gotten bigger and bigger, but uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: Wi--which is harder, Mr. Young, starting a, a thoroughbred business, or starting an e-commerce business?

YOUNG: No difference.

BIRDWHISTELL: I thought you might say that --(laughs)--

YOUNG: I don't think there is any difference. If a guy's, if a guy came--most people aren't suited to operate a business--

BIRDWHISTELL: Why is that?

YOUNG: --either intellectually or--wh--what motivation lay or, I don't know what it is uh--people who start their own bus--have their own businesses, in our economic system, which is pretty fair to all--they have an edge. And maybe the reason they have an edge is--it, it takes a, a different type of person to do it. I think maybe they have an unfair edge, in a sense, but uh--that's another story. But uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: Unfair?

YOUNG: Mostly I've never seen the statistic on small business and that would include going in the horse business--(coughs)--but--I would be willing to wager 00:51:00if they were--valid statistics, my guess is more than ninety-five percent of all businesses that are started fail. That's an astonishing--

BIRDWHISTELL: --------(??)

YOUNG: --figure, if it's true, I believe it's true.

BIRDWHISTELL: It's a very high percentage, yeah.

YOUNG: And it's enough to discourage--Lincoln or whom ever. But uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: --(laughs)-- but do most people get into the--horse business, as a business?

YOUNG: Well, that, that--I'd say no. I say yes and no. Now you take uh--the best example I ever give uh--is back in--nineteen-forty-five bef--right after the war. I went into a commercial business, peanut butter, and uh--John Bell 00:52:00married Jessica Gay and were--been friends, not all that close, but we've been good friends, close friends for f--fifty years. He came down here from Pittsburgh and uh--and married Jessica. And uh--I think there was little money in John's family, but not much. And he started with one horse. And today that's Jonabell Stables. And not only is, is John still active in the business, he got four children that's in that business. So that business is--enjoys a--an international reputation--Holy Bull stands out there. He's got five families living out of it--very successful business. Now I went in the commercial business and then--uh--the ultimate success, evidently, if--most peoples' mind 00:53:00in a, in a commercial business, is, is, is when you sell it out--especially for a--lot of money. And mostly horse--people that you know are going into the business, are people who have succeeded in other lines of endeavor, either in business, as an executive or whatnot, and they get up to this critical age of sixty, that I've mentioned earlier, and they decide to go in the horse business. And uh--ability and experience is, is both transferable and is not transferable. The odds are, because you've been successful at one business, you, you know all the answers, you'll be successful over here. Well that's bullshit.

BIRDWHISTELL: No guarantees.

YOUNG: Usually doesn't work that way. And people come in here with a lot of capital that they've made to dint of enterprise and intelligence and success, 00:54:00and they come in and they act foolishly, and they uh--they lay out a lot of money, and before you know it they're gone. Well now that's good for the horse business. The horse business, I rationalize early is the only business I know where people for non business reasons, line up to get in it.

BIRDWHISTELL: --(laughs)--Well that's sort of what I was--

YOUNG: So I don't worry about the horse market declining by so far there's always people out there waiting to get in. They get in for the thrill of the game, they get in for social reasons--a lot of social exposure--or other reasons that are non business.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

YOUNG: I enjoy the business. It's a clean business and--if you, in case you have a farm, you'll leave the world a little prettier--place f--af--after you 00:55:00leave. But they get in for all reasons, but uh, uh--I don't care how rich somebody is, if they lose millions year after year, after year, even if they can afford it, they finally become discouraged. And not only that, they uh--they lose o--they're embarrassed and they get out of it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Hmm. And so you've seen people since you've been in the business come in--lose millions--

YOUNG: Oh. Y--yeah, hundreds of I--

BIRDWHISTELL: And, and bail out?

YOUNG: --not hundreds but scores of them.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

YOUNG: Scores of them.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is there--as you, as you sort of watched these things--unfold, are there--are there a variety of reasons why they fail--each time?

YOUNG: Well I think they just make uh--just make errors in judgment. A lot of them--try to learn the horse business and make the decisions themselves when they spent their whole life in the iron business--or the construction business 00:56:00or some damn thing --(coughs)-- People laugh at me a little bit, but I keep saying that my ignorance is uh--is an asset. It depends on how you use ignorance. Today, I have never made decisions or--I have never made horse decisions--as to who's mated to whom--basically, whether we buy or sell a, a yearling. Now if it gets a lot of money is involved, why at, I'm aware of it and uh, uh--I say we can afford it or we can't afford it, but I never say it's a bad deal, you shouldn't do it or just that and the other. And--

BIRDWHISTELL: I've read those that uh--over the years that you've been in the business that uh, W. T. Young knows a lot about--those decisions now.

YOUNG: That goes with success. The only thing I bring to it is common sense.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well that's usually in short supply though, isn't it?

YOUNG: Well, I expect it is. We have never been extended--

BIRDWHISTELL: I think brin--bringing common sense to the table is a big asset.

YOUNG: --never, I've never been in a position where if something just took the gas pipe, that it would break me--

BIRDWHISTELL: Uh-huh.

YOUNG: --and for a long, long time, we haven't owed any money to anybody.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. See what I like about the--I like that common sense approach that you talked about and--what I liked about the story about W. T. Young in the horse business, is that--you know, you were successful in the--peanut butter business. You transferred that to uh--R.C. Cola, and you worked with Humana. And uh--and then you got in to this business that is so easy to fail in. And --------(??)

YOUNG: Well I've always had a humble attitude. I've, I've--I didn't do that much for m--Royal Crown, we--the share holders came out all right, but--I did nothing spectacular there, and I really didn't in Humana. I just bet I w--was 00:58:00in the position to, and I've bet on a couple of young boys and--

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

YOUNG: --they cashed in on it. But my real, my real education and training was in the peanut butter business.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, I understand, I understand. But I think that--it seems to me that--

YOUNG: And I never, I never, I never--see I went in the warehouse business, but I went into th--that was a very ordinary business. But even there, there were basic economic reasons that--I think I've covered that, maybe in earlier conversations--

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

YOUNG: --that I thought were apparent.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

YOUNG: But uh--when I went in the horse business, I didn't have any grandiose ideas.

BIRDWHISTELL: Hmm. See, that's what I like about the story, and the fact that uh--you sort of brought these uh--values, and these insights, and this approach to a business--into the horse business, and, and you've been a great success 00:59:00there too.

YOUNG: Well.

BIRDWHISTELL: And there'll still people say, "he is the luckiest man in the world!"

YOUNG: Yeah. Well, I am.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well I mean, but that --(laughs)--

YOUNG: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: --(laughs)--setting aside all the hard work and the--

YOUNG: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: --and the planning, and the--common sense, you know what I am saying that they'll say--he has the Midas touch, he--

YOUNG: He--

BIRDWHISTELL: --he didn't even fail in the horse business--(laughs)--

YOUNG: Well, you just have to take a bite. As you go along in business, you just take a bite and a bite, but this, this worship of growth--and expansion, almost inevitably gets somebody--

BIRDWHISTELL: It sure does.

YOUNG: --almost inevitably gets them. And uh--when I was in charge of uh--the chairman that is of Royal Crown, we brought a CEO in, a chief executive that uh--well he used to be a--he was a failed uh, executive at Pepsi Cola, it's the 01:00:00only reason we got him. They got up to the top tier, they passed him over, so we got him. But the first thing he wanted to do, back in the eighties was to diversify. I can hardly point to you a, an instance where diversification has helped a company. And we went into all types of businesses uh--in Royal Crown. And we finally had to retreat from them. And if we applied the same energy--

BIRDWHISTELL: --------(??)

YOUNG: --and dedication and focus--to the soft drink business, we might still have the business, or we might have gotten more for it. Coca-Cola goes into all types of thi--Coca-Cola went in the wine business, they sold that, he went in the water p--purification business, pulled out of it, they went in the citrus business.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

YOUNG: It's true of all these companies. But they sacrifice their main 01:01:00franchise and talent for diversely keep to get bigger and bigger. It always puzzled me--especially in a public company, but in a public company, the bigger you get, the top--crowd gets greedier and greedier, and they finally destroy the enterprise.

BIRDWHISTELL: Greed is a factor.

YOUNG: Hmm?

BIRDWHISTELL: Greed is always a factor--

YOUNG: That's right.

BIRDWHISTELL: --and in--and I think we've uh--you know when, when the general public sees a--business fail, and they wonder how could that have happened, and it seems to me all --------(??)

YOUNG: The best, one of the best friends I have is Bruce Lunsford up in Louisville, he founded Vencor which is a specialized--hospital for people basically on--in intensive care with a ventilator or whatnot. And he--joined just in--he is in the newspapers all of the time, he's in bankruptcy. He 01:02:00enjoyed a phenomenal success, he is enormously a--talented executive. I met him in--when I worked for John Y. Brown. And finally go in and they buy Hill Haven Nursing Homes which is bigger than they are, and they just couldn't digest it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Hmm.

YOUNG: They should have stayed right where they were and the niche they had. But you are making so much money you couldn't spend it all. He bought a few horses. And uh--I hate to give that as an example because I love uh, Bruce so. But uh, but we have never--in any business I've been in, we have never over expanded.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well see I, I've, I've paid attention to what you said and I've learned a lot from what you said about business, because I, I didn't know a lot coming in, but--when I read the uh--stories, here locally, recently about the 01:03:00ma--the major business that's failing, a three hundred million dollar debt--

YOUNG: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: --and I was thinking, you know the, the Wilkinson Enterprise--

YOUNG: I don't know what happened with the Wilkinson, way, Wallace I always thought about as smart a guy as I've ever known.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. But see, you told me once that uh--in all the--growth that you did in your businesses that, that uh--initial--capital that you gained from the peanut butter business, you weren't going to lose that, right?

YOUNG: That's right.

BIRDWHISTELL: You put yourself in a position to lose--

YOUNG: I'd never get it back.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well--

YOUNG: Never do it again.

BIRDWHISTELL: --but why do people do that though?

YOUNG: I don't know what it is, I don't know whether I, I can't trash it all to greed, uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: But it's interesting to me that you--

YOUNG: I don't know what it is--it's just something that uh, uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: It's like risk taking? It's like you just got to take --------(??)

YOUNG: No, I don't think it's even risk taking. I think if they realize the risk that they wouldn't do it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh really?

YOUNG: Uh, I think it's the glamour or the excitement uh--most of the 01:04:00businesses I've been in, you, you--I--the money I make out of--a small business, I can't, I can't live it up anyway. You can eat but so much, or travel but so much. And uh--

BIRDWHISTELL: You just seem to have such a--handle on things that, that's exceptional in many ways, you know that, that, that's your gift, I guess--just seems that--

YOUNG: On the other end, you have to grow, we've grown every year we've done--

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

YOUNG: --a little more, even the horse business, every year the horse business grows, and--

BIRDWHISTELL: But not to the jeopardy of your--farm, and your operation.

YOUNG: When you get to be a certain age, about the time I went in the horse 01:05:00business uh--another cliché, or at least a truism to me--I tell my boys that--manage these businesses, basically, that if you don't owe any money, no on--nothing get n--nothing can happen to you. Even an atom bomb is not going to hurt you but so much. And you can't expand rapidly without a lot of debt. Well now you have to forego that when you're young, because you don't have any capital.

BIRDWHISTELL: You've got to do the debt, yeah.

YOUNG: And uh--but since I have been in the horse business, I have never been in debt.

BIRDWHISTELL: It makes you--

YOUNG: And uh--that means instead of having the sa--the same buying ten mares or eight mares, whatever I--and spend all that money, I could have bought twenty 01:06:00or thirty mares. But I'd have to have a bank as a partner. And uh--I just didn't do it.

BIRDWHISTELL: An interesting story, we'll pick up--next time and talk some more about uh--Overbrook, if that's okay.

YOUNG: Well--

BIRDWHISTELL: We've hardly scratched the surface today.

YOUNG: No, it's--the thing of the, the thing has been so gratifying, and interesting about the horse business, it's a very pleasant business. And it has a lot of uh--side benefits that most businesses are pretty mundane. But the horse business has an attractive side of it. For instance it uh--it occurred to me, after I got in the business, that if we were going to make a success of it, we had to stand stallions. There were [sic] no other way to--real prosperity. Now you could, you, if you're selling your crop every year, and don't stale 01:07:00stallions, well, they get to, to get stallions, I get ahead of myself, I determine you had to race. We don't race for pleasure, we get pleasure out of racing.

BIRDWHISTELL: --(laughs)-- That's a good, that's a good thing--

YOUNG: We race, we race to expose ourselves to a stallion prospect. And today we have ten stallions, we raced all the ten of them. Never bought a stallion. You can't buy a stallion, that's already--a successful race horse.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

YOUNG: And ever come out of it, because the odds are, he'll fail. This Fagas--Pegasus horse will pay what, sixty, seventy million for him. He could be worthless.--(Birdwhistell laughs)--And uh--but if I stand a horse that I've raised, I don't have any cost in him. So--

BIRDWHISTELL: Right, that's true.

YOUNG: But the fact that I race--if I didn't race, and sold the produce, I'd make a living, but it'd be like watching grass grow, or raising tobacco and selling a crop every year. But the racing is a pleasant part.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

YOUNG: But we do not race for pleasure, we take pleasure in racing.

BIRDWHISTELL: I love that--hmm.

YOUNG: Every breeder in the, every bre--every breeder I know that doesn't race, is not a failure--

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

YOUNG: --but he's put a damper on himself, as, as just--

BIRDWHISTELL: Sort of limited himself.

YOUNG: --he limited himself as to what he can--luck up with.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, down the road in these sessions, we'll talk about some of the great races you've been to and--

YOUNG: Okay.

BIRDWHISTELL: --and following up with it, it's been great talk.

YOUNG: Okay.

[End of Interview]