Interview with Raymond Overstreet, August 28, 2002

MOYEN: --anytime you, you get to meet with someone, when, when the people are already retired, then it's not so much of an issue. But when people are still working then, you know, it's a little more difficult. So. All right, I'm here today with, uh, Raymond Overstreet who served House District Fifty-Two, in the, um, Kentucky legislature, in, in the House of Representatives from 1972 to 1992. Is that correct?

OVERSTREET: That's correct.

MOYEN: Uh, thank you for meeting with me.

OVERSTREET: My pleasure.

MOYEN: Uh, why don't we start with, um, you telling me just a little about your family background, or your genealogy, how far you can, um, trace your family roots?

OVERSTREET: Oh gosh, I'm not much into genealogy. Uh, my folks originally came here from, um, from England. Uh, settled in the Appalachia area of Virginia. And my most distant relatives are all Kentuckians.

MOYEN: Okay. All right. Um, is most your family from Casey County, in this area?

OVERSTREET: Yes. Casey and Adair County, I've, I've some cousins who live in Adair County, who lived there most of their lives.

MOYEN: Okay, all right. Um, what occupations did your parents have?

OVERSTREET: My father, believe it or not, was a, uh, was a preacher. And I say that preacher rather than a minister, because he was not, uh, you know, ordained and, and had a degree and that sort of thing. He was one of those folks who, uh, used to be referred to as called to preach from God.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And, uh, and my dad was one of those people. Uh, I lost my mother at a very, uh, young age. And, uh, and I was raised by a, uh, lady called Aunt ---------(??) Lawson, who's I always referred to Granny Lawson. She raised my sister and me, and, uh, about sixteen other children that, that were not hers. She just took us into her house and raised us. And, uh, she drew a Civil War pension, so I was basically raised by a lady who had taken several children in, and, and raised on a Civil War pension.

MOYEN: So, would that have meant that she was a widow to a--

OVERSTREET: --that's correct--

MOYEN: --okay--

OVERSTREET: --yeah. She was very old and, and, uh, lived to be ninety- seven or ninety-eight. But, uh, that's basically who raised me.

MOYEN: Huh. And did your father, um, preach, in either Methodist or 00:03:00Baptist, was he a specific domination, or?

OVERSTREET: He, he was with the, uh, what they called the, uh, old United Brethren Church of Christ, which later merged into the, uh, United Methodist Church. Uh, Dad was one of those folks who never merged.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Still always remained the old country preacher.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Um-hm. Um, did, did growing up with, um, a, a father as a preacher, um, did that affect any of your philosophies later in life that might have played into, um, role in, in the legislature at all, or, or in what ways did influence you, if any?

OVERSTREET: It, it probably didn't(??), the, the probably the most influential person in my life was, uh, the person I referred to as Granny Lawson.

MOYEN: Okay.

OVERSTREET: She was the day-to-day guardian over me.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And I'll, and her sayings yet today, you know, still come to 00:04:00mind. Uh, even in the practice of law, I can still hear her say these old country sayings, you know, that come back to mind.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And, uh, so I would say she's probably the greatest influence.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Was, was that in Liberty, or was that somewhere else--

OVERSTREET: --it was out here in a little place called Reber, which was about seven miles from Liberty.

MOYEN: Okay.

OVERSTREET: And, uh, course we had no, uh, she had no vehicle, and the only time we could come to town, as we called it, instead of Liberty, was when, uh, some-, somebody would come by and volunteer with a car and take her to--

MOYEN: --um-hm--

OVERSTREET: --to town to get groceries--

MOYEN: --um-hm--

OVERSTREET: --or whatever.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Um, now, when were you born?

OVERSTREET: I was December 3, 1942.

MOYEN: Okay.

OVERSTREET: And, uh, I was not, uh, I was delivered by a midwife.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Down on Barnage(??) Creek. A lady by the name of King, Mrs. King delivered me.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Do you have any memories at all of World War II, or maybe 00:05:00the end of the war--

OVERSTREET: --you know, strangely enough I do. I can recall, uh, standing out in the front yard of Granny Lawson's house and seeing a plane circling overhead. And people were shouting and some were praying and some were just, uh, you know, clapping hands and everything, and there was a plane circling overhead. And I can remember them declaring, it was the end of World War II.

MOYEN: Hm.

OVERSTREET: Uh, and that's, that's the only memory--

MOYEN: --um-hm--

OVERSTREET: --I have.

MOYEN: Um-hm. What about your schooling here in Casey County? Where did you first attend school?

OVERSTREET: Okay, I attended, uh, a one-room school. Uh, I first attended the old Reber(??) school, which--correct me--there was, there was three rooms, but all of us were together, you know--

MOYEN: --um-hm--

OVERSTREET: --from first through eighth grade. Uh, school was right 00:06:00next to where we lived.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And, uh, I, I attended the old ---------(??) one-room school.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And, uh, later, uh, I, we, we moved, before, before my mother died, we moved on down to the Canoe Creek. And, and then I attended a little two-room country school there.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Do you remember the name of that?

OVERSTREET: It was, uh, Foster, Foster School.

MOYEN: Okay. Did any, uh, either teachers or classmates, um, stick out in your mind as influencing you in any way that you recall?

OVERSTREET: I can recall, uh, a, a friend who, who had an artificial leg. And only one arm. His name was Otis Patton; he's now re-, he's retired teacher. And I can recall going to school with him, and, and, 00:07:00uh, a lot of people at that time, you know, were, were making fun of him.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Because, you know, he, he didn't have his, all of his limbs there. But he could walk and he could talk, he's very intelligent. And he later went on to college and became a, uh, a major in the art and taught, and he's one of the good artists.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: From here. As a matter of fact, I have a couple of his, uh, prints.

MOYEN: Huh.

OVERSTREET: But, uh, but, but, uh, it was people like Pete, Pete Patton, I call him; his real name was Otis. Uh, formulated very early in life, I, I didn't like to see people who were physically, uh, incapable of doing certain things, or who, I guess the correct name today is, mentally challenged, I didn't like to see those kind of people made fun of, and it made a, it made an impression on me that, that showed through my legislative history of bills that I would sponsor, and, and, 00:08:00uh, bills that I would work for.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: For the economically and the, uh, physically handicapped people.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: I now think that was one of the--

MOYEN: --um-hm--

OVERSTREET: --always stuck in the back of my mind.

MOYEN: What about high school? Where did you end up attending?

OVERSTREET: Well, I didn't go to, uh, uh, I didn't graduate--

MOYEN: --okay--

OVERSTREET: --high school. I'm probably one of the few professionals in the, Kentucky today who can say, "Well, I didn't, uh, I didn't graduate."

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: I, I went to, uh, the old Liberty High School for three years. Uh, and finished my junior year. And we were so economically deprived that we had to buy our books. And the, at after the end of my junior year, even though I was working over here, frying burgers at the Liberty Grill at night to eleven o'clock and then have to clean up and hitchhike seven miles back down to Reber(??), uh, I really couldn't afford the books for my senior year. And I didn't have the clothes 00:09:00that other kids had. And so I joined the Marine Corps.

MOYEN: Okay. And, and how long were you in the marines?

OVERSTREET: Served one term.

MOYEN: Okay.

OVERSTREET: Uh, the proudest moment, I guess, uh, of my life was when I arrived at Paris Island, South Carolina, along with another group of people. I was seventeen at that time. And, uh, I had a couple pair of blue jeans and just a couple of shirts. And we went through the line and they gave us all a haircut. Uh, they gave us all a set of fatigues to wear, uniforms to wear. And then when we came out of the barracks and all stood at attention for the first time, I, I looked around and for the first time in my life I felt I was equal to any other party. I had the same haircut, I had the same clothes.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Uh, and it made me feel like, you know, for the first time in my life, you know, I'm, I'm equal to somebody else.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Because of the way that unfortunately I was raised. You know, I just, we were, we were just very economically--

MOYEN: --um-hm--

OVERSTREET: --depressed.

MOYEN: Um-hm. When did you feel like you had realized that, at what age did you realize, that your mentioning how that made you feel when you felt equal, were there specific times in your childhood that you could recall feeling the opposite, like, feeling like you didn't fit, or that something was different--

OVERSTREET: --oh, many times, many times. Granny Lawson was a very, very much a devout Christian. And, uh, she would walk us to church on Wednesday night and course every Sunday. The morning for Sunday school and then Sunday evening for church services and on Wednesday night for prayer services. And I didn't have the, I didn't have the clothes that a lot of the other people who attended church had, but they were always clean.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And, uh, I had to wear hand-me-downs, and unfortunately, 00:11:00uh, the hand-me-downs had to come from my sisters. So, I did not have a pair of bib overalls until I was seven years old. On my seventh birthday, one of my older sisters bought me my first pair of pants. And, uh, so, I used to wear little dresses when I was growing up.

MOYEN: Hm. Now, um, moving forward again to, to the Marine Corps, you said you spent one--

OVERSTREET: --one term in there--

MOYEN: --one term.

OVERSTREET: Yeah.

MOYEN: Um, what impression did that leave on you, or what memories do you have of that?

OVERSTREET: I have a, I have a lot of fond memories of the corps. Uh, it's an experience that I would never take nothing for. I, it didn't mean enough for me to sign-up again. I got out just prior to the Vietnam build-up. And, but many of the guys I served with went on, went on to Vietnam. Uh, I got out and the, uh, I was a rifle range 00:12:00instructor, uh, on Paris Island. I was a coal-country boy who could take a .22 rifle and shoot the eye of a squirrel. And, uh, so they put me, I was a rifle range instructor and that was my duties at, uh, Paris Island.

MOYEN: And what year was that?

OVERSTREET: That was in 1960, '61.

MOYEN: Okay. All right. So, after you served your term, did you returned?

OVERSTREET: I came back to Casey County. And, uh, didn't quite know what to do. And then the, the editor of the Casey County News over here was a fellow by the name of Fred Burkhart. And, uh, I came back from the corps and was lounging(??) around. And, and just finding work here, work there, and finally Mr. Burkhart, who was on the board of trustees at one time at Berea College, and was a Berea College graduate, I was standing outside his office one day, leaned up against a parking 00:13:00meter. And, and, uh, Fred came out and he said, uh, "Raymond"--had a real, gruff voice--he said, uh, "You know what kinda grades you made in high school?" I said, "Well, not really, Mr. Burkhart." "Damn near straight-A student." And that was the way he talked. And, uh, he said, uh, "Why don't you go to college?" And, uh, I said, "Mr. Burkhart, I can't afford to go to college. You know, I don't have the money to pay, because," he said, "Well, what if I found a college that would let you go and you could work and not have to pay anything?" And, uh, I said, "Well, I don't, I don't really know"--you know, I never had heard of, of Berea College and its work/student type thing. And, uh, he said, "There's a," he said, "Berea College will take you in and, and you can work your way through, if you're willing to do that." "Or," 00:14:00he said, "otherwise," he said, "with your damn intelligence," he said, "you're gonna stand up here," said, "you're gonna end up in the state penitentiary." (Moyen laughs) And, uh, it made me about half-way mad. And so, when I went home that evening, uh, I spoke with Granny Lawson about what Fred had said. And, and, uh, no, no member of my family had ever gone to college. No member of my family had ever graduated from high school. And, uh, it was a, it was a whole new concept to me. And what he said, it made me mad. And, uh, about I would end up being in the penitentiary and all, that I ought to use my brains for something else. But anyway, about a week later I came back and I said, to Mr. Burkhart, "Are you, are you sincere about going to college?" He said, "Yeah, you can do it." And I said, "Well, yeah, I'll give that a try." And he said, uh, "Well, be up here Thursday morning, I'm gonna take you to Berea." And he did. And, uh, went to admissions with me, and 00:15:00Berea College accepted me, even though I didn't have a high school, uh, diploma, they told me I could take some courses in the foundation school and still attend the college credits.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: So I passed their entrance exam and that's how I ended up at Berea College, working my way through school.

MOYEN: Okay. And, and do you recall what year you started there?

OVERSTREET: Uh, 1963.

MOYEN: Okay.

OVERSTREET: And I graduated 1967.

MOYEN: What did you, what was your major?

OVERSTREET: History and political science.

MOYEN: Uh, did you know that from the time you went there, or, or did that take a little while for you--

OVERSTREET: --do you know I was, uh, I, I've always been interested in history. I've always been interested in, uh, uh, well, and then it goes back to what Granny Lawson used to say, you know, that, what comes around goes around, and all you have to look to history to repeat itself, and those types of things, and so, I, I majored in history and political science. And, uh, and when I got out, uh, of college, 00:16:00I, I was recruited by Save the Children Federation, uh, community development foundation, they were two separate entities but they worked with the impoverished people in Appalachia, and they worked with the, uh, American Indian program. And so I was recruited to work with Save the Children Federation, and to work primarily in Appalachia, uh, developing self-help programs, and that was when the War on Poverty had just been initiated through--

MOYEN: --um-hm--

OVERSTREET: --through Lyndon Johnson. And they were federal grants available. And, uh, I worked with a fellow out of, named Charles Wesley out of Berea, who was really a mentor in, in my thinking, and while working in Appalachia, I saw the tremendous amount of disrespect that coal operators were having for the underprivileged people, by just 00:17:00taking a bulldozer and taking their land and homes and so forth. And that's when I first became aware of the, um, devastating effects of the broad form deed. And I made a commitment while I was working with, within Appalachia, with the impoverished people, that if I ever had an opportunity, I would do something about that broad form deed, because people would say, "Well, you know, we can't help it; it went with the land, you know. And they just bulldozed down our home and stripped the coal." And that was the first issue that I raised when I was elected to the House of Representatives, while I was still in law school. But that memory of the bulldozers coming, the memory of people crying and not being able to do nothing about their land, even though they owned the land, the mineral rights were owned by the coal companies, and they 00:18:00just came and took it. And that was the first big issue that I raised when I was in the General Assembly.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Was to abolish the broad form deed.

MOYEN: And were you successful in that?

OVERSTREET: Yes and no. Uh, Governor Ford was the governor in 1972 when I introduced, uh, a bill to ban the broad form deed. And, uh, I will never forget a fellow from Pike County who was chairman of the natural resources committee to where my bill was assigned. And this was in 1972. And I raised more hell than a pet monkey every day on the House floor, wanting to know why my bill wasn't called up for consideration, you know. And finally Governor Ford called me down to the office. And he said, "Now, Ray," he said, uh, "Your bill's going nowhere," you know. "Now you can raise all the hell you want, Ray, but your bill's gonna nowhere, okay? Cause I'm gonna see that it is not going to go anywhere." And it suddenly dawned on me that, you know, even though in 00:19:00college and while I was in law school, I, I was taught that there were three separate, distinct branches of government, it suddenly dawned on me that we do not have, in 1972, three separate, distinct branches of government; we have two! We have the executive, and the legislative is but just an appendage of the executive branch, and the judicial branch. And I quoted that time and time again during the '72 session. And then 1974, uh, Governor Ford was still governor and a fellow who was a dear friend named Vic Hellard, who later retired from the leg-, didn't, well, he just quit legislature and went onto become to the LRC director up there, the Legislative Research Commission director. His name was Vic Hellard. Vic was a Democrat and I was Republican.

MOYEN: How did you spell his last, or how would you spell his last name?

OVERSTREET: Hellard, H-E-L-L-A-R-D.

MOYEN: Okay.

OVERSTREET: And, uh, we were good friends. And so I reintroduced my 00:20:00bill to ban the broad form deed. Vic Hellard had one very similar. Well, at that point in time, anytime that two bills were introduced to the General Assembly, and one was a Democrat and one was a Republican, the Democrat always got the sponsorship of it. And I reintroduced my bill and I was getting a tremendous amount of statewide exposure, just on the broad form deed and I felt so strongly about it. And speech after speech on the House floor, you know, I would recall these things. Governor Ford called me down one day, and he said, uh, "Ray," he said, "you've raised more hell about this broad form deed than any person I've ever seen." He said, "Now, we're gonna go with your bill, instead of Vic Hellard's." (Moyen laughs) And I, and he told Vic the same thing. He said, "Ray's raised cane," you know, and he said, "We're gonna pass his bill." It was House Bill 9. And, uh, Reynolds was from 00:21:00Floyd County and he was also the Re-, uh, Democratic, uh, whip. My bill sailed right out of committee. Me as the sole sponsor. Came to the House floor. And Representative Reynolds came to me the day that, uh, the vote was gonna be, and he said, uh, "We're gonna pass your bill today." Said, "This is how many votes you got. This is how many's against it." And darned if it weren't right on the number. (Moyen laughs) And went on through and, uh, si-, uh, Wendell Ford signed that bill into law. And I still got the pen that he signed it with.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: But that was, that was part of the experience of growing up in, and, and going through Appalachia, and seeing what kind of poverty these people--

MOYEN: --um-hm--

OVERSTREET: --you know. I grew up that way.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And maybe that was a, a tie in that, you know--

MOYEN: --right--

OVERSTREET: --but, uh.

MOYEN: Now, you had mentioned that you were serving in this, uh, job, 00:22:00this self-help work after graduating from Berea.

OVERSTREET: Um-hm.

MOYEN: From Berea. Uh, did you do that primarily in Kentucky, or did you travel elsewhere?

OVERSTREET: No, we traveled elsewhere. Uh, we traveled into, in Kentucky, to West Virginia, Virginia, and then, they gradually, I, I became interested in the American Indian program, and went out west, and worked with some of the American Indians out there in self-help projects. And was basically, uh, at that time, self-help, self-help programs were not, they were, it, it was a new concept. And that is that, and, but it's based on the old Chinese proverb, you catch a fish for a person, and he eats one meal; you teach him to fish, and he, you know, he eats for a lifetime, I mean.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Well, that was the basis for our program was try to, to develop a self-help program, where these people could do things to help themselves. So, we developed different manuals. And one of the more 00:23:00interesting things that, that I developed, along the way, as a teaching technique, was a, a booklet where you would, uh, the people would have, uh, a scenario. And if then they did the wrong thing, it would point them to the, a thing that would just keep getting them deeper and deeper in trouble. But if they answered the first question right, then they'd moved on, and, and they kept advancing. But if they didn't stop and consider what they were doing, then they ended up wanting(??), you know--

MOYEN: --um-hm--

OVERSTREET: --much worse than before. And that was one of the more interesting, like I said, that came out of it. Another one, I never will forget, was the, uh, Apache Indian tribe. Uh, some people had gone out there, some social workers, and had gotten a government grant to build them outhouses. And so, social service people went in and said, "The Apaches need outhouses. They have no, no place, you know, 00:24:00they just squat where they want to. And their streams are all messed up. And they need outhouses." So, as, I became an evaluator then of, of certain programs. So, I got out to the Apache reservations, and to review how this outhouse projects, you know, is working. And we find, when we get on the reservation, we find all the outhouses are filled with corn. They're being used as corn storage. And when I made that report back, you know, and then I got to speaking with some of the elders, well, they had never been consulted about what they really needed. This was just some social worker came in and said, "You don't have any running water, baths. You know, you need."

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: "You need outhouses." And the Indians, they felt like they needed a place to store their corn more than they needed an outhouse. (Moyen laughs) But I can go on and on with stories of those kinds of things, but I worked with the Hopi Indians, which was my favorite.

MOYEN: And where were they located, do you recall?

OVERSTREET: They're located with, in the Navajo reservation. But they're in and of itself. And, you know, no pictures were allowed or anything like that. But we, uh, we got to work with the American Indians, and I, you know, to me, that, that's one of the greatest tragedies, uh, and I hear people talk about, "Well, slavery was bad," and it was bad. And I'm not upholding it, but so many people forget how we have done the Native American Indians.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: How we have mistreated them over the years, you know. And, uh, I'm glad now that they've got casinos.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: I'm glad, you know, that they've recognized that, you know, because we took an awful lot from the, from the Indians.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And never gave it back to them.

MOYEN: Um-hm. So, while you were doing this work, was it during that 00:26:00time that you started to think you might want to go to law school? Or, or how--

OVERSTREET: --yes, it was--

MOYEN: --did that developed?

OVERSTREET: It developed because as I was traveling and I was seeing all the problems, uh, socially, more or less, and you might say, "Well, why the devil weren't you a Democrat?" You know. Well, I was raised a Republican; all family was Republican. But I found myself in the sixties agreeing with the Great Society programs. And, uh, I was a great admirer of Lyndon Johnson. Uh, as President, as far as his domestic policies were concerned, I was a great admirer of his. And it saw it and, and I, you know, I know history doesn't always record these things this way, uh, as I saw the good side of Lyndon Johnson. And, and I, I saw that side that says, you know, there are people who government needs to help.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And let's find the best way to help them. And that was my picture of Lyndon Johnson. Not the mean old bastard that everybody 00:27:00referred to him in the Senate, you know, and, and the Vietnam War type-thing.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Uh, and, and that, that, uh, that's shaped many of the, the thoughts and ideas I shared in the twenty-one years I was in the House of Representatives.

MOYEN: Um-hm. And to some extent you just answered this question, but I, I'll ask you again, what are these experiences during your time being educated, whether it was in school, or in marine corps, or in this job that you had, um, how did you see that shaping your political philosophy, and, and what would your political philosophy be in terms of the question, what should government do?

OVERSTREET: Well, I've always felt that government should not be a hand- out. Not just a check. I always felt like that the government was there to help the people, but in exchange for that, the people ought to 00:28:00be willing to do something to give back to the government.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And, and I know in some cases that's not possible. You have a, a disabled veteran, for example, who can't physically work or anything like that. And I've gotten no qualms for these people receiving payments for the rest of their life. I've gotten no qualms with social security disability benefits and that sort of thing. I have a problem, I have problem with someone who is young, able to work, just don't want to work, and says, "No, my government should support me, period. And I don't have to give anything back." I'm, I've got a real problem with that.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: But outside that, it, it shaped my votes in the General Assembly, it shaped the way I thought the policies of Kentucky should be. Um, it, it shaped a lot.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Now, before, and I use as an example, Berea College. Berea College gave me an education. But it wasn't free. I had to work for it. And I was paid eleven-, twelve cents an hour for work that, 00:29:00whatever they assigned me to do, I did.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: So, you might say, "Well, you know, how can you say that, there you go, you have a college education basically paid for." But I worked for it. And I didn't feel bad about that.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: As long as people are giving back something that the government gives them in exchange, then I'm real comfortable with it.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Did you have a specific job at Berea that you ended up doing for a couple of years?

OVERSTREET: Yeah.

MOYEN: That you worked.

OVERSTREET: Sure did. I started out, uh, I liked to say as a pile-it; uh, working down at the dairy barn, you know, I pile it here and then pile it there. (Moyen laughs) Uh, but, uh, I hadn't been there very long until they put me in charge of the, uh, foundation school's, uh, dormitory, boys dormitory. And I was dorm manager there. And then, uh, later, they, uh, my senior year, uh, Berea College paid me, I 00:30:00took over a house, and then I became the executive director of, of the foundation boys school, and I was involved in the, toward the Torch Light program, which was for underprivileged children.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Upward Bound, which was part of a, getting these kids oriented towards college, you know, and college education. So, uh, I, I played that role at Berea.

MOYEN: Okay.

OVERSTREET: And, uh, they paid me.

MOYEN: (laughs) So, after working in all these positions, trying to help underprivileged individuals, was it directly out of that work that you entered law school, or did you do something--

OVERSTREET: --no--

MOYEN: --in between, or--

OVERSTREET: --no, I, I saved up enough money, uh, turned down numerous jobs in industry. Uh, turned down jobs in, in government, to go to law school. So, during the time that I worked with Save the Children 00:31:00Federation, I saved every dime I could save, enough to go to law school.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And, and I finished law school, and then in started in 1969 and finished in '71, so I went summer, year-round. [telephone rings] Trying to get through.

[Pause in recording.]

MOYEN: Okay. In, in what year did you finish law school?

OVERSTREET: I graduated in December of 1971 and I was elected to the House of Representatives in May of 1971.

MOYEN: (laughs) So--

OVERSTREET: --so I, I was elected as state representative while I was s third-year law student at UK.

MOYEN: Okay. How did that develop? How did you get involved in politics? Or, or maybe I should ask you this: when was the first time that you were involved in politics in any way, helping with someone's campaign, or, or doing anything?

OVERSTREET: Well, you know, it was really strange, it was really strange. I was in, uh, I was in law school. And there was a job opened up. 00:32:00And, uh, Governor Nunn, who was in my party, was in the governor's office. And there was a job opened up over there, basically just taking complaints on, on the environmental, and on the environment. And, uh, I applied for that job. I needed it, you know, to help while I was in law school. And a person who was working in Governor Nunn's office, I went over and prepared my resume and, you know, told them that I was, uh, definitely interested in a job. And, and that I needed it, you know, I was, I was needing to pay off my law school. So, a fellow in the, in the governor's office, whom I shall decline to name because they're still living, uh, told me that my state representative had said that I shouldn't get that job because my family was for Marlow 00:33:00Cook in the Cook/Nunn gubernatorial campaign of 1967. And they were right. My family was on the side of Marlow Cook. And, uh, and that I was told that my state representative at that time had recommended that I not be hired. And I wasn't. So, I said, "Okay, if that's the way the ball's played, then, uh, I'll just run for state representative." And I came back here and filed. And that's what got me into politics.

MOYEN: And, and who did you run against in that first election?

OVERSTREET: Ran against the first term it was a fellow by the name of Herschel Brown(??), who was the current state representative, and a fellow from Columbia, a former state representative, by the name of T.M. Buck Watson(??). And, uh, I carried this county with fifty-two votes. Uh, beating both of, both of them here, uh, Mr. Watson carried 00:34:00Adair County, which was his home county, and I carried Cumberland County, which nobody was from.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: But the people down there, so Cumberland County really elected, was the county that elected me the first time.

MOYEN: Now, was that all in a Republican primary?

OVERSTREET: Um-hm.

MOYEN: Okay.

OVERSTREET: Um-hm.

MOYEN: And how close did you say that election was?

OVERSTREET: Well, I can't, I can't recall the exact figures except that I won, I beat Mr. Brown fifty-two votes here in Casey County, and he had never been defeated. He had been county judge, court clerk, state representative, you know. And, uh, I just, I, my ads were, "Give a Young Man a Chance."

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And I can't, I'd come home on the weekends. I'd start on a Friday evening and I'd campaign--

MOYEN: --and how, how did you go about campaigning? What did you do?

OVERSTREET: I--

MOYEN: --what was your strategy?

OVERSTREET: I went personally door-to-door, every place I could go. Attend any rallies, anybody that would invite to come, I'd be there.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And, uh, that's, that's, which(??)--(Moyen laughs)--nobody thought I could win.

MOYEN: Did, uh, when you first entered the race, were you thinking, Hey, this is a long shot but I'm gonna try, or, or did you feel even then pretty confident?

OVERSTREET: No, no.

MOYEN: Okay.

OVERSTREET: No, I, I did not feel confident but I, I felt that the people ought to have a choice.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And I felt at that point in time that I was the better choice of being from the other two candidates(??). Uh, Mr. Brown was a, a nice person, a very good person, but he wasn't, uh, you know, the most educated person. Uh, and I had more education than, than the either, other, the other candidates did. And I felt, quite frankly, that I would be able to articulate the issues of this district, uh, than, than either one of the other two gentlemen.

MOYEN: Um-hm. When, um, when did you feel like in that campaign that, 00:36:00was there any point at which you thought, Hey, I think this thing might go my way, or I, or, or you really started to believe that you had a good chance of winning?

OVERSTREET: Well, here in Casey County, I only had two elected officials for me, and all the rest of them were against me. And back in 1972, you know, the old political machines were geared up. And, uh, I knew I had a real fight on my hands. But at the same time, I felt comfortable in knowing, well, you know, I'm gonna get out of law school and I'm gonna come back here and I'm gonna practice law. And the contacts I make during this race can't do anything but help me, if I--

MOYEN: --um-hm--

OVERSTREET: --if I leave a favorable impression on--

MOYEN: --um-hm--

OVERSTREET: --on people. So, it was a kinda dual thing, selfish, to a certain extent.

MOYEN: (laughs) Okay, so, so, uh, when you win and you begin your term in office, it, it's after Louie Nunn has been governor and, and Wendell Ford is governor-elect, as you mentioned--

OVERSTREET: --um-hm--

MOYEN: --what things about the legislature surprised you, or what things were really, like, um, you expected them to be?

OVERSTREET: (laughs) No, quite frankly, I, I, I did not realize at the time the tremendous power that the governor of Kentucky had. And Wendell Ford, uh, was a good governor; he was an extremely, extremely strong governor when he came to the, to his legislative proposals, and what he wanted the legislature to do. And I was surprised, quite frankly, to sit, uh, in my seat, I sat beside, uh, Representative Mae Street Kidd from Louisville, a black lady, and George Street Boone from 00:38:00down in Elkton, Kentucky, who was a very liberal Democrat. Uh, I was surprised to see on votes that every day, uh, a certain, the, the, uh, votes that would be voted on that day would come down to each Democrat in the House. And it would be from the governor's office. And it would be, you know, either you vote Yes, or you vote No, or we don't really care one way or the other. And the sheet was circulated daily on the legislative bills. That surprised me. Uh, and I found out that basically whatever Governor Ford wanted to be passed would be passed.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: At that time there were probably, uh, less than twenty Democrats in the--or twenty Republicans in the House. So, it was whatever the Democrats wanted--

MOYEN: --um-hm--

OVERSTREET: --is what they got. And that, that's surprised, opened my eyes to, to, to the reality of it all, you know.

MOYEN: Um-hm. How do you, uh, being in the minority party there, lobby for, uh, committee assignments that you might be interested in, or, or were you pretty much told, "This is where you were gonna serve."

OVERSTREET: We were told where we were gonna serve. Um, the biggest problem that I probably got into in '74, I guess it was, when Norb Blume was speaker of the House, and, uh, I wanted so bad to be on health and welfare, because that was where all the legislation was coming that, you know, I personally had an interest in. And all these other guys were shooting for appropriations and revenue and that type of thing. And, uh, I was told one day, "You can have a seat on health and welfare seat, but there's this liquor bill coming up about the drinking in northern Kentucky. And, uh, it only affects northern Kentucky. And, uh, if you could be for that bill, you know, in all 00:40:00likelihood, you would receive your committee assignment." I voted for the bill. I got my seat on health and welfare, but I caught hell from these country preachers, and these churches on that Sunday morning, and I was trying to say, "Look, it doesn't affect this area, only, only affects northern Kentucky." But I was preached about many of sermon on that. (Moyen laughs) Uh, looking back now, it, uh, I mean, I still would've done the same thing--

MOYEN: --right--

OVERSTREET: --because it didn't, it really didn't have an effect on Casey, Adair, and Russell counties, you know.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: I mean, it, it was only a Newport, city type-thing. And those legislators up there wanted it.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: But, uh, I caught, I caught hell from the pulpit. (both laugh)

MOYEN: Okay, well, while Wendell Ford was governor, Julian Carroll was speaker at the time, right, when you began to serve, or is that incorrect?

OVERSTREET: Um, um, I believe, uh, Julian was, uh, the, uh, Senate pro- 00:41:00temp--

MOYEN: --okay--

OVERSTREET: --in the Senate.

MOYEN: That's right.

OVERSTREET: He was lieutenent governor.

MOYEN: Um, with, um, Norb Blume, you had mentioned, and, and some of the other leaders in the House, um, eventually Bobby Richardson--

OVERSTREET: --um-hm--

MOYEN: --um, did they, how did they respond to this, um, strong governorship? Did, when did they start to fight that type?

OVERSTREET: Okay. Now, you, you will, you will hear different perspectives on this. And this is only one individual who was there at the, at the height of the strength of the governor. And I also was serving, in, in my opinion, at the weakest point that the governor had. I think it changed because in the '72 session, in 1971 when I 00:42:00was first elected, we always had our pre-legislative conference down at Kentucky Dam Village. And leadership, uh, would always come up and the governor would handpick, basically, who he wanted to be in leadership. And everybody just kinda fell in line. It wasn't until the election of John Y. Brown in 1979, in my opinion--

MOYEN: --um-hm--

OVERSTREET: --that there suddenly developed--and I think it, I think a lot of it was John Y.'s attitude of, you know, I don't really have anything to do with legislature. You know, I'm the governor.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And the legislature started to pick their own leadership. And starting with the 1980 session of the General Assembly, I saw a tremendous change in the workings of the legislature, when we, as independent members, were basically free to choose who, who, who our 00:43:00leadership would be. I think it was a turning point.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Uh, then John Y. basically kept his hands off of, off of the leadership, and the committee chairmanship, and then Martha Layne Collins was elected in 1983. And by that time, the legislature had started to say, you know, flex that muscle just a little bit, and by golly, there wasn't no governor gonna tell, you know, whoever leadership's gonna be. Uh, and then that went through four years. And then it came the era of Wallace Wilkinson in '87, at which time the legislature had really developed a muscle.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And Wallace's attitude, while, while he was a friend of mine, was one of confrontational, rather than concili-, conciliation. 00:44:00And it was just, at that point, that the, that the, uh, in my opinion, that the legislature said, "Look, you mind your own business down on the first floor, we'll take care of third floor," type-thing(??).

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And I, and to this day, the legislature has, uh, has become, I saw it grow into its own.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And I would have to take back those words that I first spoke when I went to the General Assembly.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: About that there being three separate and distinct branches of government, if I were elected to the General Assembly, I could not make that statement. And be fair about it.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And be truthful about it, because I think today we truly do have three independent branches of government.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

[Pause in recording.]

MOYEN: All right, we're, we're discussing legislative independence. Um, I want to go back just a little bit to, uh, we're talking about John Y. 00:45:00Brown and his, uh, hands-off approach in allowing, uh, the legislature some room to pick(??) their leadership. Compared that, or contrast that, I guess, with, uh, Julian Carroll, who served after Wendell Ford. And, and what was his administration like?

OVERSTREET: Julian was a very strong governor. Very strong governor. As a matter of fact, of all the governors I've served under, I would rate Julian Carroll and Wendell Ford just neck and neck as being two of the strongest governors that I personally have served under in the General Assembly. Uh, they knew how to get things done. Uh, a classic example was my seatmate was Herbie Deskins from Pikeville. Herbie was a very liberal Democrat. And, and, uh, let the whole world know he was a Democrat and didn't care. But anyway, Julian had a proposal that I 00:46:00was opposed to and Herbie was opposed to. And we felt like that the bill was letting big brother watch every move we make in this NCIC-type thing, only putting names and, and if anybody who was arrested, period, you know, they'd go into this, and even though may have never been convicted of anything, their names still appear on this. Anyway, on that particular bill, uh, one day came up in the House, and Herbie and I got up and ramped and raved about the bill and how it was taking away the civil liberties of people. And, and so, it was defeated by one vote. And we hadn't much more and got finished with the voting until Herbie got a call to come down to the governor's office. And when he came back, he, uh, went up to the podium to the speaker, and, uh, told him to recognize him, he had a motion to make. So, Herbie made 00:47:00the motion to reconsider the vote, by which, uh, that bill would've been defeated. And of course he could do that since he voted on the prevailing side. And, uh, we all got to riding Herbie about it, and he said, "Well," he said, "I'm just gonna explain to you something." He said, "I read that bill and read that bill, I was totally opposed to it. But," he said, "You know, on the way down to the governor's office," he said, "the governor explained to me that there was something in that bill that I had lost." He said, "You know, coming back up the steps, I found the page that had been lost out of that bill." (Moyen laughs) But it was later determined Herbie wanted a particular paving project done in his district, and, uh, got it done, you know.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: So, is that manipulating the legislature? Uh, I don't know if it's manipulative or if it's just one of, one of the realities of life that you deal with, when you hold the key to the cookie jar, you hold the key to a lot of policy, and procedures that you want 00:48:00accomplished. And Governor Carroll held the key to the cookie jar. And nobody else did.

MOYEN: Um-hm. And Wendell Ford did too. I think during, uh, Ford's term, this may have started and then the, the actual constitutional amendment took place under, um, Carroll, I think, uh, the, the help to reorganize judicial system. Uh.

OVERSTREET: Yes.

MOYEN: Do you recall anything specific about that, that, that made the system more efficient, um, or, or were you interested in that at all, since--

OVERSTREET: --I was very interested in it. And, and, and we had a, we had a good county judge here, who, uh, at that time, you know, handled all misdemeanors, uh, had criminal complaints and everything. But these people were not, uh, did not hold law degrees. And they did not have a field of law to, to direct them in. And so, that constitutional 00:49:00amendment required, uh, the county judge to be an administrative judge, rather than a judicial officer. Uh, perhaps, it, it was my legal training. Perhaps it was the way that I see, uh, the system, the way the legal system should work. I was very much in favor of that constitutional amendment. And I think it, uh, it broaden, uh, it, and I know it protected certain people's right on the constitution that they did not have prior to that constitutional amendment.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Uh, and I know a lot of the folks on the street would say, "Oh my gosh, you got to have a lawyer now to be, you know, for a judge." And a lot of people were opposed to it for that reason. But from my perspective, I thought it was an excellent idea.

MOYEN: Um-hm. During, uh, Governor Carroll's term, you served, during 00:50:00his tenure as governor, you served one term as minority whip, is that correct?

OVERSTREET: That's correct.

MOYEN: How, how did your position in, in the House switch or change at all when you served in that type of position? What, uh, what is it, what types of responsibilities did you have that you didn't have before in that?

OVERSTREET: The duty of whip was to try to hold the coalition of the Republicans together on votes. Quite frankly, I was miserable with it. Uh, I did not agree with, uh, at that time, the Republicans so avid opposed to caucuses, to discuss the people's business. I expressed that viciously(??) throughout the term. Ended up, uh, finally being told, you know, "We're gonna have closed caucuses. You don't want to come, you don't have to come." And so I chose not to go anymore. Uh, 00:51:00but it was a miserable, and, uh, and I didn't want it. I didn't want a position in leadership, after that.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Uh, I, I, I tried again to be minority leader in 1984. But, uh, being minority leader is whole different cry than just being minority whip.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Eventually our caucuses were opened up to the press and to the public.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: But, uh, for a long time they stayed closed and I, I never understood that, you know. I mean, if I, if we're in ---------(??) backrooms, discussing something that affects you and your family, and I don't have the guts to stand in public and say it, but I have the guts to stand in a backroom, knowing it will never be repeated, or it's repeated, I can deny it, it's wrong.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: You can't, it's just wrong.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: So. I became kind of a black sheep.

MOYEN: (both laugh) Was that something that over time you, you felt like 00:52:00you were able to, um, to reconcile with, with certain individuals in your party, or did that always stay with you?

OVERSTREET: You know, I, I, I think, I think it probably lasted throughout my career. Uh, I can remember in the eighties when only two Republicans in the House could pass legislation on their own; one was Charlie Holbrook from Ashland and the other was me. And that was because I had, I had made friends with the majority leader, the speaker, the Democratic chairmen, you know, in the House, and so forth, and I had a lot of Democratic friends, personal, close personal friends. And I had a bond with them that I would not stand up and just criticize a bill because a Democrat had supported it or sponsored it. And they in turn knew that I would not sponsor a bill unless I felt very strongly about, believed in it strongly, and I wouldn't put a bill 00:53:00in just to embarrass, you know, the Democrats for a vote. I didn't think the legislative process should work that way. And that's why right now I'm so darn mad at Congress, because I see it done every day as plays(??), you know. Well, we'll do this to embarrass the other party. That's not the way the country should run.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: You know. And, and I felt that way, I, I didn't feel like Kentucky should be run that way. And I think over the years that as, as new representatives came in and, and realized that, you know, I, I was sincere about anything I sponsored. And I would never do anything to embarrass either the Republicans or the Democrats on a vote.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Uh, I, I'd be just the opposite.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And so, I, I think over the years I gained a respect of the majority party, and, and to a certain extent, the, the Republicans. But you always had, you always had that bunch in, in Republicans who was a general rule could always get the leadership post, who would just, you know, they, I don't know. It wasn't, it wasn't as if, you 00:54:00know, we're here as 100 House members doing the people's business, we got to do, we got to look to the next election, you know. And we got to beat that Democrat over here, you know. We don't like for some reason. So, let's put this bill up and make them vote against it, you know, apple pie, God, and motherhood, and that type of thing. And it, it, it just, uh, it just didn't sit well with me.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Can, can you think of any specific examples, either on the Democratic side or the Republican side, where, where that happened, any particular instances where that sticks out in your mind as being frustrating?

OVERSTREET: Uh, probably two areas, uh, one being, um, budget amendments. Uh, the other probably most prevalent would be in the, uh, anti-abortion field.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And, uh, I realize that the anti-abortion, uh, issue cuts 00:55:00across both parties, and there's very strongly-held beliefs in both parties in that, uh, Republicans as a general rule wanted to always cut something fat out of the budget with a budget amendment. When it would be necessary to fund it, uh, try to make some kind of ruse of, of cutting back a program, a social program, and, and picking out little nit-bits of things that, you know, would sell to the public but wasn't necessarily in the public's best interest.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Uh, probably budget fights and the anti-abortion bills were--

MOYEN: --um-hm--

OVERSTREET: --the areas that, that come back to me.

MOYEN: Um-hm. One thing, in particular, that may fall in this category, I'd be interested to get your opinion on, on it Um, I believe in 1980, '83, you filed a lawsuit, um, saying that, um, you had been slandered, 00:56:00I believe, when some, um, some others in Kentucky, not in your district, were campaigning against you. And it was--or not against, not campaigning against you, but they were just campaigning, and it dealt with what they, critics called the Greed Bill.

OVERSTREET: Um-hm.

MOYEN: Um, can you explain that a little?

OVERSTREET: I can explain that. Uh, I can explain it by telling you that I did not file, file a lawsuit. What happened was, uh, I believe his name is Wiggins from Clark County--

MOYEN: --John Wiggins--

OVERSTREET: --um, filed a suit against every member of the General Assembly. Including me. Individually. And, uh, it bothered me that in that lawsuit it, uh, stated that basically all 100 members of the House had voted themselves this huge pay raise, you know, the Greed Bill type thing.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Which I was not, uh, for.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And yet I was named as a defendant, you know, in the 00:57:00lawsuit. So I chose, as an individual, to counter----------(??).

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And, uh, more or less, just to bring it to, to the public's attention, look, he's named every one of us. And that's not fair, you know.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: If he's gonna, and, and, but I also realize that under the law he had to name the entire General Assembly. And, and that was frustrating to me in and of itself.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Because I was a member of the General Assembly. And yet, he was doing this lawsuit with this big broad brush that every one of us, you know, was for this Greed Bill, and every one of us was just looking out after ourselves, type thing. I resented it and I filed a counter-- -------(??).

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: But it wasn't a lawsuit.

MOYEN: Okay. All right. Thanks for the clarification. Um, after John Y. Brown's term and the legislature's being to experience some of these independence that you were talking about, how did that continue, or 00:58:00what changed when Martha Layne Collins was elected governor? What type of leadership differences were there, in, in, between those two?

OVERSTREET: No longer was, was the governor, uh, re-, able to simply make a call to the speaker of the House, or the majority leader, and say, "This is what I want done." Uh, because the speaker and the majority leader and the leadership had to look at their own members for their reelection--

MOYEN: -um-hm--

OVERSTREET: --in leadership positions. As a result there was a lot more discussion of public policy. A lot more discussion as to how, how will this, how is this gonna affect my constituents, how is this gonna affect the state of Kentucky as a whole. So, rather than one individual making a call, it certainly at that point became a point in time in which, hey, I can only--used to be just call one person and you could no longer do that.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: You had to have a certain number of people in on the discussions, for it to be effective and for them to be successful.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Okay. Now, during, um, John Y. Brown, Martha Layne Collins's terms, you, um, as a legislature are kinda moving from being--well, maybe this happened in the seventies as well--from being a younger legislator to moving up in seniority. Um, did you face any challenges, any campaign challenges back home--

OVERSTREET: --yes--

MOYEN: --during that time?

OVERSTREET: Yes, I faced campaign challenge in 1974, uh, in 1977, 1985, 1988. Uh, there was a person filed against me in 1990, and then 01:00:00withdrew.

MOYEN: Okay. And those different races, were those all Republican challengers or did you have any--

OVERSTREET: --only had a one, one occasion when the Governor Carroll was, uh, governor, I had a Democrat file against me from Adair County. And he was strongly discouraged after he went to the secretary of state's office to file, not to run against me.

MOYEN: (laughs) Um, did you find campaigning particularly frustrating or tiresome or, or was that something that you enjoyed?

OVERSTREET: Loved it.

MOYEN: Did you?

OVERSTREET: Loved it like a hog loves slop.

MOYEN: (laughs) What did you like about it?

OVERSTREET: I, I loved, I loved to, to meet new people and, and old friends, as well. I loved to listen to what they were having to say about the going-ons in Frankfort. I loved to have them tell me their problems, if there was some way that I could help with it. Uh, I took 01:01:00calls twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week from constituents. Uh, I, I loved it. Because, you know, it was the little person who happened to live out at the end of Canoe Creek, and, uh, the state, uh, road only comes up so far, and you have to, the school bus can't get to my kid, type of thing. You know.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: I love those -----------(??), and I love to work on them.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And I loved to, and it always pleased me to sit down and write a letter back, and say, you know, "I don't know if I can get this done, but this is what I've attempted to do." And attach a copy of the, the letter I've sent to transportation regarding it. Yeah, I loved, I was helping people.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And, and, and it was, and campaigning was a pleasure for me.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: It really was.

MOYEN: That's good. (laughs) Now, during, uh, Martha Layne Collins's time in office, probably the biggest legislative, uh, event, if, if 01:02:00you'd like to call it that, would be the passage of the, the incentives package for Toyota.

OVERSTREET: Um-hm.

MOYEN: Do you recall how all that developed and, and how you voted on it?

OVERSTREET: Yeah, I can tell you how it developed. Uh, and I can tell you I voted against it. Uh, looking back, uh, if I had to cast that vote over and knowing now what I do know now and how it's developed, I would've voted yes. But my thinking at the time was this was, this was an awfully, lot of money, to give to a foreign corporation that I didn't know how it would respond in Kentucky.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And, uh, I was opposed to it.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: But, you know, thank God, uh, it, it turned out the way that, uh, that she said it would--

MOYEN: --right--

OVERSTREET: --you know--

MOYEN: --um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And it's brought a lot of economic development to Kentucky, 01:03:00but at that time, I was, I was leery, uh, namely dealing with a foreign country trying to establish a plant here, and, uh, tremendous tax incentives that were being given, again, to another country.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Uh, probably if that kind of incentive had been given General Motors, or Chrysler, or Ford, I probably would've said, "Yes, let's do it."

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: But, uh, no, I was not for it.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Um, also during Martha Layne Collins's term, I believe, legislation passed that changed your district, or, um, to include all of Russell County.

OVERSTREET: That's true.

MOYEN: Is that correct?

OVERSTREET: That's correct.

MOYEN: Is that something that is relatively unique to happened during the middle of an election, if it's not after a census and, and reapportionment?

OVERSTREET: Eric, it, it is, and I'll, and I'll tell you how that came about. Russell County had been split for a number of years. And 01:04:00after the first redistricting, they took Cumberland County away from my district and put me with Casey, Adair, and a portion of Russell County, part of it. Uh, the late Representative, uh, ----------(??) from Monticello, uh, when he ran in Russell County, did not get, uh, a good vote, or what he thought was a good vote. So, he was willing to let the legislature divide Russell County right up the middle. Uh, the people in Russell County were terribly upset, and I heard about it. And so, when I was elected with that portion of Russell County, I told the people, "If and when there comes an opportunity, I will put Russell County back together as one whole county."

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: That opportunity came when, uh, a lady who was a state 01:05:00senator, Helen Garrett, from Paducah, was in leadership in the Senate. And she had a problem with a magisterial district in Paducah. And, uh, David Williams represented the lower part of Russell County at that time in the House. And I saw this bill initiated in the Senate, on this magisterial district. And so, rather than going public, I went to Helen Garrett, and I said, "I would love to put all of Russell County back together in one legislative district. Would you mind, when your bill came to the House floor, if I attached an amendment to do that?" And she said, "I would prefer you not to do it." She said, "Because if you do, every representative will want to change their district." And 01:06:00I said, "Well, Senator, if I could do it, and not let it become public knowledge until it is done, would you mind?" And she said, "I just don't want my bill killed." And I said, "I want kill your bill. I'll, I'll withdrawal an amendment before I'll kill your bill." So, after that conversation, then I went to, uh, Bobby Richardson, I believe, was speaker of the House at that time and Jim LeMaster was majority leader. And I told them what I wanted to do. Well, at that time, the rules of the House were you had an amendment twenty-four hours before it's to, so, I got a commitment from them of when they would call the bill. And on the twenty-fourth hour, I filed that amendment, and I told Speakers Richards and Jim LeMaster, I said, "If you'll just call this amendment, there won't anybody in the House be able to realize what's been done, if you'll just say"--(snaps fingers)--"bang that 01:07:00gavel." And they agreed to do it. And David Williams caught it at the last minute and he wanted to get up and make a big speech about it, cause he represented the other part of Russell County. I said, "David, please do me a favor. Don't speak on this amendment. The only thing I'm gonna do is say that I would encourage for the sake of, uh, of the uniform method, but that, which we go about redistricting, that this amendment be adopted, and I'm not gonna say anything else. And I've got an agreement that, that the House will adopt it. But if you get up and start talking about it, somebody is gonna kill this bill, and put, add a lot of amendments to it." And so, the bill was called and I rose and the speaker recognized me and I called for the amendment and I said, told the House, I believe my words were, "This will rectify a situation that should've been rectified sometime ago, I move its adoption." Bobby Richardson, "Without objection." It was slammed to the 01:08:00next vote. That's the story of how Russell County got back together.

MOYEN: (laughs) Let me ask you this about your constituents in your district. Are there any noticeable differences between Casey County, Russell County, Adair County, or is it relatively, uh, homogenous in the sense that the people are gonna have the same interests, issues, concerns, or, or what about even their party registration? Are those all Republican counties, in terms of registration, or?

OVERSTREET: They're all Republican counties in terms of registration. And I think basically there're, you could, you could lump those three counties into pretty, uh, homogenous type of--

MOYEN: --um-hm.

OVERSTREET: That's, that's the way I would classify--

MOYEN: --um-hm--

OVERSTREET: --there's not a whole difference in the people here and Russell County and Adair County.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: They're, you know, it, you got over a hundred country 01:09:00churches in Adair County. Adair County is one of the counties with an awful lot of just country churches. We have about seventy, here in Casey County. All different types. Uh, the, you know, they, they try to not, my opponents over here has tried to kill me with the, tried to paint me as pro-abortion. And they, they never could stick the label to me because the issue was raised, when, when, uh, Roe v Wade came down, I was asked everywhere, my opinion on abortion. And my stand in 1972 was the same stand that when I left in December of '92. And that was that while I personally am not in favor of an abortion, I would never vote for a bill where the rights of the mother or where rape or 01:10:00incest were not excluded.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: I couldn't see that. And, uh, it was a, it was, it was consistent over twenty-one years; I never changed my policy on that. But because of that, uh, I, I, I received quite a bit of flack and opposition.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And I, at, but yet, when the people would talk to me about it, and I'd sit down one-on-one and say, "Look, you know, I'm sorry. I have a daughter. And she were the victim of raped, I'm sorry, I couldn't look her in the eye and ask her to carry that child to term." Couldn't do it. Uh, incest, I feel the, just as strongly about it, because I, uh, during my work, uh, with, well, people from Appalachia, I, I saw a lot of that. Uh, it's a lot of it today. And, uh, it bothers personally, and a child thirteen or fourteen years old, you 01:11:00know, to say, "Your daddy has impregnated you. Uh, but you have no rights; you've got to carry that child to term." I couldn't do it.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: If I couldn't do my own family that way, I didn't feel like that I ought to establish that kind of policy on the commonwealth of people.

MOYEN: Um-hm. And, um, as you shared that with, with the people in your district, did you feel like they responded well--

OVERSTREET: --they did--

MOYEN: --to that?

OVERSTREET: They did and it was used, uh, on every election that I had.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And the last person who really brought it up, uh, uh, I think I only got 83 percent of the vote. So.

MOYEN: (laughs) Uh, was that, uh, a pretty standard, um, situation in, in, the campaigns that you ran, meaning did you win by pretty wide margins?

OVERSTREET: Yeah.

MOYEN: ------------(??)

OVERSTREET: Yeah, the first race I ran was the only close one I ever had.

MOYEN: Okay.

OVERSTREET: The rest of them were no, just no contest.

MOYEN: Okay. Um, when Wallace Wilkinson became governor, uh, you mentioned briefly how he, he had a, a different leadership style. It was more confrontational. How did that affect you in terms of, uh, his being from Casey County, and, and your being from Casey County? In what ways did that prove to be a blessing and in what ways did that prove to be a curse, if it was at all?

OVERSTREET: Eric, I feel sorry for any representative or any senator who has a governor elected from their district. And, and I'll tell you why I do that, because, uh, not only was Wallace from my hometown, we grew up boyhood friends. Went to school together, early, all my 01:13:00life. Not only was it that, but people would think, Well, not only is he, you know, your his state representative, you ought to be able to talk to him about anything. Get anything done. In fact, I, which you couldn't(??).

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: The, the other side of that is that I was a, I was very reluctant and Wallace and I had a gentleman's agreement when he was elected, uh, and I said, "Governor, I will not meet the press out here and openly criticize you and your policies. Now, you know that there is gonna be times that I will, I will disagree with you. But it will be done in this office and it won't be done in, at press row." And, uh, we shook hands. And that was the agreement I had with, with Wallace Wilkinson the four years that he was governor. And I, I believe if you'll look back, you will never find a negative comment I made about Wallace while he was governor.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And not that we didn't have our differences; we did. And, uh, I remember one big difference was after the Carrollton bus crash, Wallace came with a very, very strong DUI program, legislative package. And I was, Herb-, Herbie Deskins and I were one of two people that, uh, in Wallace's package, he wanted it a police officer, a constable, anybody pulls you over and charged you with DUI, then your license were taken immediately on the spot. Without a hearing, without anything. And I went down and tried to Wallace that I couldn't go along with this. And I said, you know, "Wallace, we got constables out here who don't like people. Uh, they're not educated and maybe they don't like their neighbor. And all of sudden at ten o'clock at night, they pull 01:15:00them over and say, 'Hey, you're under arrest for DUI; give me your license.'" And I said, "Governor, that's not right. You know, there's no, if you're gonna do that, there's need to be a hearing process, a due process built into it." He said, "No," he said, uh, "That's not gonna happen." He said, "It's gonna go the way that I proposed it." And he said, "By the way," he said, "You're down there fooling, you and Herbie Deskins is fooling around with my bill, you're trying to establish a, uh, occupational drivers license." And he said, "I want it stopped." And I said, "Now, Governor, that's not gonna stop." And I said, "You're gonna get a DUI bill. You're gonna get DUI(??), but you're gonna get in that bill an occupational drivers license," and I said, "Governor, it's wrong to punish the family and the children, the wife of a person who's out here committing a DUI, take their license, without that person having an opportunity to go to work, you know." And 01:16:00I said, "I'm not saying it's, it's right for them to get up and run up and down the road drunk driving and all, but there's some people out here who make a living, who work for their families, and they do drink on weekends. But I, I'm not willing to punish those kids and that wife for a one-time offense that a man may commit. And I think that he, after thirty days, he ought to be allowed to have a hardship license." And I never will forget. The, the Governor got up and walked towards the door, and I was leaving, and he said, "Give it your best shot, Romando." And I said, "I will, Governor." (Moyen laughs) And so, when the bill came across it had an occupational driver's license in it. But, uh, and then, you know, there, but it, it, it, it's frustrating. It's very frustrating. And I know I would look ------------(??) the legislators, when, who, when Governor Ford was in there, I know how I 01:17:00looked at those people. Well, you know, he's, you're from his district, you know, surely you can talk to him about anything type of thing. And I'm sure that legislators looked at me in the same, I know they did.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: You know. And so, that part of it is very frustrating. I know I would not, uh, I would not want to serve in the General Assembly again with the governor.

MOYEN: Yeah. Were there, were there any times where you felt like, uh, Governor Wilkinson was able to help to help you with something that you were concerned with?

OVERSTREET: Oh, no question. No question. Most of those things were done, uh, like I said, in, in speaking, and that his chief of staff being from Liberty, here, David McAnelly, who was a good friend of mine. Uh, many, many times, uh, I had certain programs that I was interested in that, that he, he helped on.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Let me ask you a couple of questions just about, uh, KERA, and how that developed while he was, uh, governor, 01:18:00after the state supreme court ruled Kentucky's educational system unconstitutional. Did, um, was that something that, that you became involved in, or, or concerned with at all?

OVERSTREET: Didn't get involved with it, Eric, and I'll tell you why: I didn't vote for KERA. As I recall, that bill was published on a Friday afternoon and put on our desk and we were asked to vote for it the first part of the week, and it was a huge, huge bill. And I did not personally have the opportunity to go through the KERA bill, and pick out the things that I liked and didn't like about it, to really make an intelligent decision. And I was having to rely on people who had 01:19:00drafted the bill, and, but I do, I do recall certain things sticking out in my mind, and that, and you might find this really strange coming from somebody like me. But requiring, uh, cooks at these schools to have a high school education, or the equivalent thereof. And again, my mind flashes back to Granny Lawson, the greatest, one of the greatest cooks in the world, you know. And I'm thinking, How many cooks are there in, in the schools of Kentucky who do not have a high school education? Women, who are fifty-five, sixty years old, do a good job. Uh, you know, can I vote for a piece of legislation that says before you're employed, you have to have a high school education, just to be a cook or a janitor? And that probably didn't seem like much to a lot of people.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: But I, I didn't vote for KERA. And, and, and that was the 01:20:00rea-, that was one of the reasons. I wasn't educated enough about it.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Number one. And number two, I could not, I could not see requiring a minimum education for someone who just cooks for the children or who sweeps the floors.

MOYEN: Yeah.

OVERSTREET: I don't think you have to have high school education to know how to mop a floor.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Or to fix good mashed potatoes and green beans, you know what I mean? I guess, I guess that was just the old country boy coming out in me. But I didn't know enough about it and I voted no.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And if I didn't know enough about a piece of legislation to intelligently vote on it, I would not vote for it.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Um, as KERA was enacted--or is there anything about that legislation or the educational reform now that you think has worked well or, or still other things that you would say, "Hey, hey, that hasn't, hasn't worked"--

OVERSTREET: --one of the, one of the selling points for KERA was let's 01:21:00take nepotism and let's take politics out of the school system. Okay? Now, what KERA has done has taken the politics from the superintendent and from the boards of education and has instead substituted fiefdoms and principals and site-based councils, and that's all it's done. So, what is worse: having a superintendent and a board who has the power to hire and fire employees, uh, grant jobs and that sort of thing. What is the difference in the superintendent and a board of education doing it, or a principal and a site-based council that he controls, he or she controls? So, see, no difference in it. Nepotism is not out of the public schools in the Commonwealth of Kentucky because of KERA; it, it has shifted.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: But it's not out.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Now there were some good things.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: There're some good things came out of KERA. Uh, accountability standards, I think, are, are something that, that eventually as it fine-tunes its way. I also think that the day will come at which KERA will be an impossibility, uh, to perform. Because you take a school out here, let's, well, let's take the Liberty Elementary School. And certain criteria set, okay, if they reach, if they reach 96 level of success, and that's their goal, that's great. Okay, then what is your next level? Sooner or later then you're gonna get up to 99. Well, that's fantastic. But then, their level being at 99, what happens if they fall below that? Then suddenly they're a school in crisis. And, and the bubble's gonna burst. And, and you're 01:23:00gonna see, in my opinion, not this year, not next year, but unless KERA is refined in some way to the standard accountability, you're gonna see the impossibility of any school system in the Commonwealth of Kentucky being able to reach its goals, reach its criteria.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Uh, some of it's happening now.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Yeah, it is. All right, I, I wanted to ask you about, um, something that you continued, um, to, um, call for throughout your term, you and Mr. Deskins, um, both, I think, supported a concealed weapon bill.

OVERSTREET: Yes, sir.

MOYEN: Um, can you tell me a little bit about your reasoning behind that, and, um, some of the ways that you tried--(Overstreet laughs)- -tried to get that passed, because I, I think that's really important 01:24:00not only because of the legislation, but also as a way to show what legislator have to do in terms of get their--

OVERSTREET: --okay--

MOYEN: --their agendas.

OVERSTREET: First of all, it was the muggy definition of how courts were ruling on carrying a concealed deadly weapon that first brought my attention to it. And they would say, some jurisdiction would say, "Well, you could leave a pistol on your seat beside of you," and that's not concealed. And then other, other court systems would, other court cases would come down and say, "Oh, no. If it's plain view, it's still concealed." Well, I've, I've always been a firm believer in the Second Amendment, rights. And so, it was the, it was the different cases 01:25:00coming down that first brought my attention to carrying a concealed, deadly weapon. I wanted to do away with the statue. Completely. And, and my reasoning wasn't that, wasn't, uh, very difficult; it was hard for me to imagine that I could walk down the streets of Liberty with a gun on my side, fully loaded, and not be charged with carrying a concealed, deadly weapon, and yet, have one in my vehicle in the, either the glove box or, you know, another box in there.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And, and I'm a criminal; I'm charged with carrying a concealed, deadly weapon. So, it didn't make sense to me. So, my idea was to totally do away with, with the carried concealed law. And yes, we, we've, uh, we, I had some interesting things. Probably one of the most interesting was the, uh, we took a resolution of the endangerment 01:26:00of the grasshopper, and, uh, we drafted this resolution. And at the very end of this resolution, we determined that the grasshopper could be an extinct species. So, therefore, it had the right to protect itself in any form or fashion, including the carrying a concealed deadly weapon. (Moyen laughs) And then we came on down there and we redefined what a grasshopper was making it Homo sapiens. (Moyen laughs) We passed the sucker. (Moyen laughs) Caught(??) --------- (??)--------- we, we slipped it through so beautifully, I mean, it was just a resolution related to the extinction of a grasshopper. And then we, we, we've hid, we've, we've hid that darn bill, we hid it in the economic development package of 1988 uh, by spacing certain words throughout. Maybe we would just have four words on one page marked 01:27:00through and substitute, and then we'd put it all together, it, you know, it outlawed the--

MOYEN: --um-hm--

OVERSTREET: --that particular statue.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Uh, gosh, we've attached it, we've attached it everything, old Herbie and I did. (Moyen laughs) And we loved it.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Had a ball doing it. Matter of fact, Buell(??) Guy, when he was, uh, serving as the assistant to Don Blandford, came over to the Holiday Inn one night and we were over there and it was about 10:30 PM, and Buell came in and he was bleary-eyed, and he just walked over there to where old Herbie and I were sitting, says, "You two so-and-so," he said, "You had me working all night." He said, "The speaker said, 'I know they've hid a DUI law in one of these bills; find it.'" (both laugh) And he said, "I haven't found it. Will you please tell me?" (laughs)

MOYEN: Do you, do you recall if you told anything, or did--

OVERSTREET: --we told him nothing. (Moyen laughs) We let him wander. 01:28:00But there was a lot of, uh, but at one time, the speaker had just one person looking for--

MOYEN: --um-hm--

OVERSTREET: --anything. And, uh, that was the time just right when computers started coming in, and they'd put a bill in there, and type a word, uh, "concealed weapon," and see if it showed up in any of the bills, you know.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: So, it got harder and harder, but I think the most interesting was the resolution attached to the.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

[Pause in recording.]

MOYEN: Okay, um, we were discussing some of those things that, that were a lot of fun for you in the legislature, something that I don't think was a lot of fun for anyone once Brereton Jones became Governor. And 01:29:00this was right around the time that you decided, um, not to run for reelection, again, BOPTROT came on the scene. And that was in your last session, is that correct--

OVERSTREET: --it was the last session I served. I announced in, uh, January 1991 that I would not seek reelection.

MOYEN: And why was that?

OVERSTREET: Well, I was, I was having back problems. And driving between here and Frankfort, I'd have to stop two or three times and get out and walk around the vehicle. And being up there all day on that concrete, and, and my back was just, just killing me. And I was, I was getting burned out, quite frankly.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: So I announced in January of '91 that I would not seek reelection, in order to allow any other person who might be interested in that seat to have time to get their name out there, and, and get known, and campaign for the office.

MOYEN: Um-hm, um-hm. And when did the, um, do you recall when the 01:30:00BOPTROT scandal broke, and, and what that was like?

OVERSTREET: You know, strangely enough, it was Mar-, it was in March, toward the end of March. I was coming from the House through the tunnel. And, uh, all of sudden two guys appeared beside me, whom I did not know. And one of them patted me on the back, and said, "Ray," said, "You're a darn good legislator." Said, uh, "You're gonna be missed up here." And I said, "Well, thank you." And, uh, the other one said, "We, we need to talk to him, up there." And there was some guy up ahead of me that I had, so they just shot on past me. I went on to my cubicle and about fifteen or twenty minutes later, Lawson Walker came by and he said, "What's the FBI doing over here?" I said, "I, I have no idea." He said, "You don't, you don't know them?" I said, "No." He 01:31:00said, "Well, you were seen walking up through the tunnel with one of them." Said, "One of them was patting you on the back." I said, "I had no idea who it was." And, uh, I said, "No, I had no idea what they're doing here." And then later that night I found out that, you know, they were there to interview some legislators, still didn't know what, I just didn't anything about BOPTROT, or anything like that.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: It was only after the papers printed it that I, that I discovered--

MOYEN: --um-hm--

OVERSTREET: --what had come down.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Was that something that really shocked you, or was it something that you kinda felt like, well, maybe that stuff was going on, but there was no way for you to find out about it, or was it something that just--

OVERSTREET: --total shock. Um, you know, you, you hear people talking about bribing legislators and this and that. And I, I, I've got a story that the closest thing to a bribe that was ever offered me in the 01:32:00General Assembly, and I'm not talking about the little pieces of apple pie that right-to-life put on your, you know, on your desk, or the, the little pens and things, you know, that people gave all legislators. And I, and I didn't consider that, you know, gifts.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: I didn't consider it bribes or anything. But I was going into a health and welfare meeting, uh, one day, a little short, ugly woman came up to me. And I'm being kind by saying short and ugly. (Moyen laughs) And she said, uh, "Mr. Overstreet, I'm for such and such of a bill." And she said, "If you'll vote for that bill, I'll give you the biggest hug and kiss you've had." (Moyen laughs) And I thought to myself, you know, and I was familiar with the bill, and I was against the bill to begin with, I thought, God, if I wasn't, you know, I wouldn't vote for it. (Moyen laughs) That's the closest thing to a bribe that I ever got in, in the--

MOYEN: --um-hm--

OVERSTREET: --the twenty-one years in the House. So, it came, it came as a shock to me.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Uh, and, and I've been around these fellows. And, uh, you 01:33:00know, to this day, uh, I do not believe that Don Blandford was ever guilty of taking a bribe of a quid pro quo thing, I do not believe it. Uh, uh, I think there was some probably, uh, unfortunate incidents that occurred that, that, that maybe were, wouldn't pass some ethics test.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: But as far as an out-and-out bribe, I never saw one, never heard of one in the General Assembly.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Uh, it just, uh, and it surprised me.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Um, I think in, in 1984, and then again in 1994, possibly as repercussion from all this, the BOPTROT and trying to establish ethics, um, you had, you were questioned by a jury, I think, in, in 01:34:001984 about something to do with a, a multi-bank holding company. And it, and can you tell me, uh, that story, and--

OVERSTREET: --Eric, I can tell you and that it's embarrassing. (Moyen laughs) Um, but, uh, you know, I tell you, I tell you exactly what went down. On the day that the, uh, I believe it was allowing banks to cross county lines, uh, I can't even remember the legislation now. I was on, I served on banking and insurance during that period of time. Uh, on the day that that vote came down, I was involved with, uh, Steve Warner, country music star and his career. And I had felt an obligation to go to Texas with him on the tour. And I believe the 01:35:00date was on a Thursday. Anyway, we left out early Thursday morning on the bus. He, and the band, and, uh, Dave Davenport from Russell County, he was with us on this tour. Anyway, it was, it was a tour through Texas through the weekend, coming back on Sunday. So, I missed the legislature on that Thursday, that the bank bill came up for a vote in the House. Well, when, uh, we were coming back on a Sunday and I called home and my wife said, "Your name is all over the news." And I said, "About what?" And she said, "About you advising a legislator to throw away a tape. That he had taped somebody trying to give him a bribe on a banking bill." I said, "You got to be kidding me!" She 01:36:00said, "No." And said, "It's, he's on the Sue Wylie show." Said, "It's a fellow by the name of Elmer Patrick." Well, I came home and was just, I, I couldn't believe it. There he was, he was saying that a fellow by the name of McClure, that he had on tape, offered him something in exchange for a vote on this bill. And he had told the press that he had took it to an attorney on the House floor just before the vote, and this attorney told him to throw the tape away. Well, at, at that point in time, I think I was maybe one of two attorneys Republicans in the House. And it wasn't unusual for many legislators to come and ask me a legal question.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: That, that was very common. And I said, you know, "He, the guy couldn't of asked me because I wasn't there. You know, it's just 01:37:00that simple." But anyway, I went on back to the legislature on Monday, and, and got a call from Morris Burton, who was a prosecuting attorney and commonwealth attorney there in Franklin County. And maybe he still is. And Morris told me, said, uh, "Ray, uh, I, would you mind to come over in front of the grand jury, and, uh, answer some questions on this bill?" I said, "No, Morris, I, I don't mind it." He said, "Do you know what it's about?" And I said, "I know what I read in the paper, Morris." He said, "Well, uh, now Representative Elmer Patrick was before the grand jury and he said that just before the vote on this bill, he took to you a tape and asked you what he could do with that tape, and he told the grand jury that you told him to throw the tape, get rid of it." And I said, "Morris, this is so embarrassing." I said, "I am, my constituents probably will hang me, and I should've been here doing 01:38:00business, but I was, I was on tour with Steve Warner." And, uh, I said, "But I don't mind coming over." And so, I, I went over, and, uh, grand jury asked me and, and, uh, I said, "I, you know, I don't know where he picked, where he got my name from. And folks, this is embarrassing, but I was in Texas with Steve Warner, with Steve Warner. I was on tour, and I promised him I would take that tour in February with him, uh, to Texas." And I said, "We left out on Thursday morning about eight o'clock." And, uh, and I said, "I was with him and his band through Sunday night, until they dropped me back off at Russell Springs." And, uh, so the grand jury foreman kinda laughed, and he said, "Well, Mr. Overstreet," he said, "Don't, I guess that is kinda of embarrassing. You get elected by the people to serve and taking off." And I said, "Yes, sir, I took two days off." (Moyen laughs) And I, and I said, "But that's it." I said, "No, he never, never talked to me."

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And so, uh, I satisfied the grand jury, satisfied the commonwealth attorney and I said, "I don't know who he talked to," but, 01:39:00uh, they went on to trial, and, uh, they called me as a witness. And, uh, of course, I disputed everything that Elmer Patrick had to say about me. And, and do you know to this day I don't know why he called my name. Unless he was just one of those, he's about half-off anyway, you know.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: But unless he just thinks, you know, well, you know, Raymond Overstreet, you know, I always ask, ask him a legal question. But I wasn't there that day. And I produced to, to the commonwealth attorney and to the, uh, grand jury the names of sixteen people that had had me covered from Thursday morning until Sunday night when I got back. And, uh, but it was so embarrassing that they, they called me at the trial, and I will never forget, uh, Morris Burton saying to me, said, uh, "You don't like Elmer Patrick, do you?" I said, "No, sir." He said, "Would it be a fair and accurate statement to say that, uh, you truly, 01:40:00truly don't like him?" And I said, "That would be a fair and accurate statement, Mr. Burton." He said, "Would it be a fair and accurate statement to say that you hate Elmer Patrick?" And I said, "That would be a true and accurate statement after he made those allegations, yes, sir. And any other adjective you want to use, I'll admit to that too." (Moyen laughs) But anyway, that was--

MOYEN: --um-hm--

OVERSTREET: --that was the story behind it. And it was, it was a very embarrassing to me.

MOYEN: Um-hm, um-hm.

OVERSTREET: You know, but.

MOYEN: Let me ask you this--[telephone rings]--about mentioning. Do you want to take it?

OVERSTREET: No, I don't need to.

MOYEN: Okay, about, um, your, uh, you mention going on tour with Steve Warner and that, it seems like I read something about you helping set up, uh, at the ------------(??) Martha Layne Collins was gonna be on some sort of country--

OVERSTREET: --I did--

MOYEN: --um, television show. And I, I, I also read something about 01:41:00legislation that you, um, sponsored concerning pirated tapes, and, and trying to get, um, some country musicians involved in that, encouraging legislators to vote for that. How did that connection with country music dev-, develop, or, or, uh, is there anything to that story, or?

OVERSTREET: That, that what you're saying is true. Uh, I was, uh, I was a friend of Ralph Emery, who conducted the "Nashville Now" show for, uh, what, TNN is a Nashville network. And since Kentucky had numerous, uh, country music artists in it, I suggested to Ralph that maybe he ought to have one night of the show just devoted to Kentucky and Kentucky artists. And have the governor and just Kentucky performers there. Well, the, the, it, it was sold as that, in that vein, I was not sold in that vein, but they bought it in that vein--

MOYEN: --right(??)--

OVERSTREET: --you know. So, Martha Layne Collins, uh, did go down, and, uh, I believe, uh, gosh, I can't think of the other country music artists who were there. But anyway, yeah, that show was devoted. And then I did the same with, uh, with Wallace Wilkinson, when he was governor. I asked, uh, Ralph Emery about putting on an all-Kentucky show, and having the governor, you know(??), and that came about. The, the other idea where I was trying to establish, uh, to protect Kentucky artists and their trademark, uh, is, uh, it's now the law. As a matter of fact, uh, it's the same law was, uh, upheld in the, uh, oh. Jesus Christ. Montgomery case, out of Garrard County, George Michael Montgomery--

MOYEN: --um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Uh, I, I didn't want to see, and I had a lot of friends 01:43:00in the business. And I saw what other states were trying to do. And I didn't, and Tom T. Hall, who happened to be a good friend of mine, from Kentucky, Billy Ray Cyrus, Steve Warner, and I can cite different others, but I didn't want to upon their death, for some entrepreneur to put out some cheap ashtray with their image on it, without having the consent of the estate to do that. So, I introduced a bill in Kentucky that would prohibit that, without the consent of the estate of the deceased. And it was welcomed throughout all of, of course, all of my friends that I had, they really, they really wanted it. And I haven't kept track, but my understanding was that a lot of the other artists were trying to get their own states to enact similar legislation, because there was no federal--

MOYEN: --um-hm--

OVERSTREET: --law that could protect them. And, and it was just simply that. I didn't want to see at Tom T. Hall's death, somebody get out 01:44:00here and have an imprint of him on the bottom of a cheap ashtray, you know.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And that was all it was about.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Protect it.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Um, are, are there any other pieces of legislation, or looking back on your legislative career, is there anything else that you can think of that you either sponsored or, or sponsored or voted for that you're particularly proud of, that just stands out in your mind as, as, um, what you would want to say that, "Here's something that we did -----------(??)

OVERSTREET: Well, you got to remember that at one time, uh, any ideas that I may have had for sponsoring legislation, after I learned the reality of Frankfort--(Moyen laughs)--I would, uh, I would get the bill drafted and then give it to a Democrat friend to pass.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: One of those was the CDs that a man and a wife had, and 01:45:00there was a presumption in the law that if a man and a woman had a, wanted a CD with both their names on it, in a bank, the person who died, there was a presumption that all that was their money. And so the spouse had to end up paying inheritance tax on it. Uh, I drafted that legislation and handed it to a Louisville Democrat to sponsor, and of course it sailed through the House very easily. The other thing is that I worked for years on trying to eliminate the inheritance tax. And, uh, governor after governor kept telling me that, that the money just had to come in, you know.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: The state needed the money. And, uh, it wasn't until Martha Layne Collins was elected governor that we got the foot in the door by eliminating spouses. And I wanted, and so we agreed that it would be a graduated thing, year to year, session to session. And it wasn't until, I believe, two years ago that we eventually fazed out, uh, children.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Uh, totally. It started out with twenty-, 25 percent of what they would've paid, and then it went to 50, and then 75, and--

MOYEN: --um-hm--

OVERSTREET: --eventually, so yeah, the, the working on, uh, I'm, I'm very, uh, I don't like inheritance taxes, because I, I feel like that people who've worked all their life, and paid taxes on it once, after they're dead and gone, I, I just don't think the family should have to pay another tax on it.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: So, that, that accomplishment, and I've, I've seen that come out as one of the good things that I feel good about. Um, but there, there, there are other things that, that we've, we've worked on, but my name has never been mentioned.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Uh, do you have any good stories or, uh, some might say, anecdotes, but I don't think they are; I think they're important when 01:47:00you're talking about legislature. Just in terms of ways that you had fun or were able to relate, like, for example, one thing I read about was, uh, Herbie Deskins having to wear, uh, a purple suit--(Overstreet laughs)--in the legislature. Or, you know, or, how, how did, how did those things happened, or, um, and, and, in what, in what ways do they help in just collegiality, in, in, in Frankfort?

OVERSTREET: You, you don't have ten hours. (Moyen laughs) Uh, sometime, uh, when you have a chance, uh, you and I and Herbie will sit down and have a cup of coffee and I can tell you a lot of stories, but there, the one with the purple suit was kinda ironic. Uh, we were in, uh, in South Carolina. And Herbie and I were on a trip down there. And we passed this men's clothing store. And of course Herbie and 01:48:00I were known, uh, sometimes the flashy jackets that we may put on occasionally. We passed this men's store, and there in the window was this deep purple suit. And I don't know which one of us made the comment. Honestly can't tell you that. But we're riding along on, on, a horse and a buggy, and one of us said to the other, said, said, "Let's go in there, and if it fits you, I'll buy it, but you have to wear to the, to one session of the General Assembly. If it fits the other one, the other one has to buy it." Well, we agreed. And the horse and the carriage pulled over and we went in there. And it fit Herbie. I had to end up buying it and he had to end up wearing it. (Moyen laughs) But, uh, yeah, that's one of the more interesting, and then, uh, another, another funny story, we had a, we had a fellow 01:49:00in there by the name of Bruce Blythe, and Bruce is still living, I believe, from Louisville. Bruce is kinda short and stammered. And it was all in the seventies, I'm sure. And at that time we were having late sessions at night, and, and so, we'd all send out for something to eat. Well, Herbie was known to be able to eat anything at anytime at anywhere. So, we were, we two were on the front row, and Representative Blythe was on the front row, next aisle over. And so, we said to one of the pages, "You know, we're gonna send out and get some food, get some hamburgers." And Bruce said he was hungry, he'd like to have a Big Mac. So, we sent out and we got three Big Macs, and some fries, and so forth. Well, when the page came back, she set the Big Mac on Bruce's desk, one on Herbie, one on mine. And 01:50:00Representative Bruce Blythe was not in his seat when the Big Mac came. He'd gone somewhere. So, Herbie ate his Big Mac. I ate mine. He said, "Raymond, still hungry." And he kept eying that Big Mac over there on that table. He goes over there, gets the Big Mac, takes one huge bite out of it, puts it back in there, and sits it back on the, on his desk. In a few minutes Representative Blythe comes in. "Oh," he says, "gosh, I'm hungry." So, he opens that up, he says, "Oh my God! They've taken a bite out of this." So, he puts it back together, puts down in the trashcan, comes back out, and Herbie gets into the trashcan. (Moyen laughs) Eats it. (Moyen laughs) And then another one, I got, oh, I'll tell you this one, this one is kinda funny. You 01:51:00know, different representatives, uh, when they get up to speak on the House floor, handle themselves differently. Some will put that mike right there and some will hold it out here. And I don't know if you watch the activities of the General Assembly or not, but a lot of people will just play with the mike, back and forth. Representative Louie Guenthner was bad for taking the mike, and just, I mean, almost chew it, you know. (Moyen laughs) Well, we got, Herbie and I got some stink perfume. And I mean, it would gag a maggot. Well, we knew that the next day, Louie Guenthner had this very, very important piece of bill concerning Jefferson County that he was gonna talk about. So, we go over to there before the House session starts, and we take the cap off that mike, and pour that stink perfume right down in there, you know. Well, Louie's bill is the first one to be called up, and 01:52:00he takes that mike, and he says, "Mr. Speaker, argh, argh, argh." (both laugh) Looks over towards me and Herbie, he says, "I'll get you." (Moyen laughs) Oh, and then there was the day that we bet on how many times the, we had a bet with the press corps, Herbie and I did, on how many times that one legislator would adjust his mike back and forth.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: While talking. We pooled it, at a dollar apiece. And the whole press corps was in on it, me and Herbie. We pooled our money, a dollar ----------(??), and whichever one would guess the closest the number of times he moved his mike. And, uh, one of them guessed, uh, thirty-some. Mark ----------(??), you know, you probably know Mark, Mark was in on it. And, uh, well, all the press corps was in on it. And so, we just started keeping count. I think I guessed seventy-some, 01:53:00maybe Herbie eighty-some, that the guy would move his mike back and forth. So, as he getting there talking, every time he moved that mike, you know, we'd, we all marked down, you know, see which one was gonna get the closest. Well, then the rest of the House started looking at us, you know, and the speaker started looking down there, and every time that mike would do like this, you know. And the focus entirely was on Herbie, me, and the media, because I didn't win, I didn't win--

MOYEN: --you didn't win(??)--

OVERSTREET: --the jackpot, but somebody in the media won it. But yeah, those are things you remember, and fun.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: We had Representative Aubrey Williams's shoes one time. He had a bad habit of sitting on the back row, taking his shoes off. Going to sleep. (Moyen laughs) So--(laughs)--he took his shoes off one time, and I don't, I don't know if you know Aubrey, but he's a dear friend of mine. He's, uh, uh, an attorney out of Louisville now. But, uh, had huge feet. And, uh, so we caught him asleep back there. So, 01:54:00we went back there and stole his slippers. Took them down there. And we knew that when Aubrey woke up and couldn't find his shoes, we knew he'd come looking for us. So, we hid them in a desk behind us. Well, sure enough, Aubrey woke up and we just kinda watched him. You know, sit right there on the back. He kept looking and looking around for his shoes. Finally, he got up, and here he comes up barefoot, right down beside, he leaned up beside Herbie, he said, "Boys, please give me my shoes back." Said, "I got to go to the bathroom." (both laugh) We gave him his shoes back. But that's.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Um, when you think back on those things and then you think about your, uh, when you decide not to run anymore, um, was that an easy decision at the time.

OVERSTREET: It was not an easy decision, but I chose to do that because, 01:55:00like I said, my back was really giving me problems.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And I, and it was either give it up, or, you know, just stay locked in pain, and I.

MOYEN: Um-hm, um-hm.

OVERSTREET: But I, people say, "Well, do you miss the General Assembly?" Of course.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: You miss the camaraderie, you miss the, the stories that I just--

MOYEN: --right--

OVERSTREET: --got through telling you about.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Uh, I just don't miss that long drive up there and, and back, and.

MOYEN: Was that difficult on your family at all? That drive, uh--

OVERSTREET: --yeah--

MOYEN: --and the time you're away--

OVERSTREET: --yeah--

MOYEN: --or do ------------(??) job, or?

OVERSTREET: Well--

MOYEN: --both.

OVERSTREET: I, my daughter was born in 1974, and I didn't have an opportunity to spend the time with her that I would've liked to, cause she was grown by the time I retired. And, uh, I, I've got a grandson now that I spend an awful lot of time with, and, and I do, I miss that part of it. And it's part of public service that I think, uh, probably 01:56:00you don't realize it until you get out of it, and realize that all those years have gone by, that, you know, you could have spent more time with your family and watch them grow up. And then you got to balance that with, well, you know, what is your purpose in your own life, too? Did you give? Did you leave the state any better, for doing your public service? And is that really a, a takeoff on, on well, I didn't spend as much time with my family, but I did give something back to the--

MOYEN: --um-hm--

OVERSTREET: --back to the state. And I think you can justify it, most people could justify that.

MOYEN: Um-hm. I, I read that after you retired, um, from legislative service, you still acted as a consultant for both Democrats and Republicans--

OVERSTREET: --yes, sir--

MOYEN: --but, um, that's all the article stated. What does a, what does a consultant do, or what, or what do you do in that role?

OVERSTREET: It, uh, well, it started in 1994 when Tom Jensen, uh, became 01:57:00majority leader. And, uh, he asked me if I would come to, and, and be paid by the Republican caucus, to go over and explain to the Republican members of the caucus the, uh, what a bill really did. And I, I think a lot of people had respect for me there in the House, and I could go in, see(??) a bill, and basically pick out, you know, I could, I reached to the point to where, believe or not, when somebody would testify before a committee, I could almost tell you what they were gonna say about the bill. And, and that part got boring. But Tom asked me if I could come and, and, and go over the bills, and the House caucus went over the bills that they were gonna vote on each day, and to just to inform the caucus about the nature and extent of the bill and what they did.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And, uh, that was in 1994, and I agreed to do that. And then, uh, in the '96 session, the, uh, Democrats if I would come to 01:58:00work, uh, and I worked out of Kenny Rapier's office, uh, through the speaker's office, had my own desk over there, and I monitored the legislation for, for the leadership basically.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And did the same in '98. Wasn't really a consultant, I don't think as much as it was, "Hey, Ray, here's some bills. Look at them, and, and, uh, you know, red flag them, if you see something in there, you know, that shouldn't be."

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Something we don't want, or make sure that this amendment is germane to.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And, you know, for years I was one of the people that every speaker called up there on questions if something was germane or not, a lot.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: The gentleman from Casey, you know, I'd go up.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And, because I, I was, I, I, I stayed very much attuned to the legislation and to the process it was going through. After a while, you could, you could look at who was sponsoring a legislation, and, and you basically know what, what it was about.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Kind of.

MOYEN: What about the, uh, time that you were appointed, uh, I, I think it was called a special justice.

OVERSTREET: Um-hm.

MOYEN: On, uh, I don't know if it was a case dealing with ----------(??) taxation--

OVERSTREET: --that's what it was dealing with.

MOYEN: Um, how, how did you get appointed to a special justice, and, and what do you do, or what did you do in that role?

OVERSTREET: Okay, the, um, the chief justice of the supreme court, when a justice has a conflict of interest or a potential conflict of interest in a case, then that particular justice step, steps aside. And the chief justice, as a general rule, will appoint an attorney, and mostly it's within that supreme court justice's territory.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Uh, to sit in as a special justice, and you have all the powers and the, the pay and everything that the member of the supreme court has. In that particular case, uh, it, it, one of the issues 02:00:00was legislative intent, uh, the drafting, uh, itself of, of the law, regarding hospital tax. And maybe it was because I was a former legislator and, and maybe it was because I was familiar with how bills are drafted and formed, and that sort of thing, but anyway, I was asked to sit in on that case.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And rule on the constitutionality of it. And, uh, and I did.

MOYEN: Is, is it pretty common for a justice to recues themselves on that, on cases, or, or is that something that's pretty rare?

OVERSTREET: Well, it's, it's, well, it's not rare but it's really not that common--

MOYEN: --okay--

OVERSTREET: --and I, I don't sound like I'm trying to be evasive here, but usually the supreme court tries to stay intact, but there is some cases that a justice simply feels like there is a conflict, and I can't sit on it, you know, type thing. And on those cases, then, then 02:01:00attorneys are appointed.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Uh, to sit.

MOYEN: Um, I, I believe in, in 1999, you decided to, um, run for Twenty- Ninth Circuit Judge.

OVERSTREET: Um-hm.

MOYEN: Did, did your, um, getting to serve on, um, the, as a special justice in that case, did that kinda get you thinking that that was something you wanted to do, or was that something that you already knew--

OVERSTREET: --no--

MOYEN: --or, or how did that, how, how did--

OVERSTREET: --okay--

MOYEN: --you make that decision?

OVERSTREET: I'll tell you how I made that decision. The current circuit judge at that time had decided not to seek reelection. And I, I, my thinking was, yes, I'm gonna take a pay cut, and yes, I'm gonna do this, but I believe that I can offer a certain perspective on the circuit judge's position that, that would change the way our court 02:02:00systems are run.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And, uh, rather than just the same old, well, you know, you're guilty of a Class D felony, one to five, period, here, you know.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: I was thinking in terms of, you know, all eternity sentencing, uh, putting the court calendar on a continuous basis, uh, streamlining the system of justice by setting certain days set aside for lawyers to work out cases, you know, just a lot of things that I had in my mind I wanted to do. And that's why I chose to run. And it was the four counties, and after, and I knew this before I got into it, but after I got into it, and, and, uh, and won the primary, I got to thinking, you know, do I want to get up at six o'clock in the morning and drive to Hopkinsville, which is on the Tennessee line, or nine o'clock here, and--see you, Shelia(??)--and then get back in my 02:03:00vehicle and come back to Liberty, you know. To spend four hours on the road, and yet, I was up, you know, I was out there campaigning and I thought, You know, what, why, why are you doing this? You quit the legislature because you didn't want to do all that driving, and here you're gonna have to do all this if you're elected judge. But anyway, I won the primary. And, uh, it came down between, uh, a good friend of mine, Judge Weddle, and myself. And, uh, at the time we were running, we were, we were both attorneys in a case, a federal case in Missouri, co-counsel, traveling back and forth between here and Missouri. And, uh, I never will forget coming up 49 one night about two o'clock in the morning, we caught a flight out of Kansas City, and Jim looked over to me, and he said, "Raymond," he said, "You know, I really don't care which one of us is elected circuit judge. Do you?" And I said, "No, it really doesn't matter, because we're both going to be after the same goal, just to try to clean up this docket, and, and put it, 02:04:00put it on the twenty-first century, you know, which where we've never been before."

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And, uh, so it didn't bother me at all to lose to him in the general election, even though I have never lost Casey County in any election.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: I've always carried it.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: But they beat the dickens out of me in Monroe and--(Moyen laughs)--and Cumberland County, so.

MOYEN: Um, one, one other thing that I found that you served on afterward, and we touched on it for a little while, or, or a little bit earlier, was the, the legislative compensation commission, uh, I believe, it was called. Is, is that something that you're familiar with, or not?

OVERSTREET: No, I've never served on the legislative compensation committee.

MOYEN: Okay. Um, um, seems like I read that somewhere but if I--

OVERSTREET: --now, I was on the, I was on the legislative ethics commission for a number of years.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Uh, well, no, wait a minute. Let me take that back. 02:05:00You may be right on a short-lived committee, I was. I was, I was appointed; you're right. It was very short-life committee. And, uh, I wanted to see legislators compensated for what I thought they ought to be paid, rather than the, you know, when I started, it was twenty-five bucks a day. Like I sit here in the office and write a deed--

MOYEN: --um-hm--

OVERSTREET: --and make more money than I could spend an entire day in Frankfort.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Yeah, you're right, it was, I was on that.

MOYEN: Is that, is that something that you think is, is starting get better, um, providing at least some decent compensation for legislators, or, or, or where do you think that that should be?

OVERSTREET: Well, you know, the legislature is like any other workplace. You have, you have people who pull more than their weight--

MOYEN: --um-hm--

OVERSTREET: --in the General Assembly. And yet, they're all are elected and they all ought to be paid the same. We can't change the constitution on that, except that leadership does receive maybe ten dollars or something like that, more a day. Committee chairs do. There are, there are some people who would utilize a fifty- or sixty- thousand dollar salary as a basis of, hey, I can get paid, and I can just lay back and, you know, not do anything. And over the years I've seen some legislators who prefer that route to take. And I've seen, I've seen some that worked day and night, very, very hard, and not only for their constituents, but for, for all of Kentucky. And, and that's not enough compensation for these people. But legislators should be paid more than what they are being paid. Uh, I, you know, it, it 02:07:00wouldn't bother me to see us go to a unicameral system like Nebraska has, although that would never sell in Kentucky.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Uh, it wouldn't bother me to see us have a reduction in the number of representatives. Uh, and if counties ever consolidate, that might be something that some future leader might think about.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Uh, but, there are people who, who you could not pay it; their services are so great to Kentucky, that the compensation would be way out of line.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And there're others that it would just be miserable.

MOYEN: Right. Um, the one last thing that I have written down that you just mentioned, that you served on was the ethics commission--

OVERSTREET: --yes--

MOYEN: --after, um, BOPTROT. Do you think that the ethics legislation that was developed after that, um, was, uh, effective in terms of doing 02:08:00what it needed to do, or, or, or was it overly stringent, or, or, or what are your feelings on that?

OVERSTREET: My feelings are currently as the legislative ethics law was drafted is I have never been one to believe that, uh, you do something in secret to cause some embarrassment that you wouldn't care to do publicly. Uh, and in that sense, in having a written formal complaint, signed. And, you know, there is such a thing as the Constitution of the United States, which we all live under, including those who reside in Frankfort. Some of them think they don't, but, uh, they do. And there's such a thing as being right to, to look your accuser in the eye, and say, "You know, I didn't do this," or, "Why are you doing this to me?" The old ethics, uh, law where anonymously you could accuse a 02:09:00legislator of impropriety, and then be called on the carpet, and it's in the press, and this sort of the thing. And you never know who, who's done this to you.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: And you can't serve in Frankfort, I don't care who you are, you can't serve up there without making somebody mad.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: You make some enemies; you're gonna do it regardless. Every vote that you cast up there, you got some people says, "Well, he's wrong to do that." And you got another voice says, "No, he's absolutely right." So, as far as the exposure, as far as putting ----------(??) today, if I have something against a legislator, I think a legislator has done something ethically wrong, I should have to sign a complaint.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: This is what I think he's done. And I don't care if he knows that I'm the person who says he's done something wrong. In that sense, I think it's great. I was, uh, I was not very favorably 02:10:00impressed, while I sat on that commission, an anonymous complaint would come in. Uh, perhaps it's the legalistic coming out in me. But I wasn't comfortable with them. Just wasn't comfortable.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: Uh, John Doe says that Representative So-And-So, uh, had an interest in a used car bill and he has a used car lot, a special interest, you know. Well, who are you? You know. Tell me what, what it, and that, that didn't bother me as long as it was public. But when they start, when they were doing it privately, it bothered me, and I think that change in the legislature was for the good.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Is there anything else about your legislative career that, um, I have failed to ask you about, or anything else that you'd like to say about your time in the legislature?

OVERSTREET: Well, you know, they accused me of coining the phrase one time. And, uh, what brought this to mind was that President Clinton was the only other person that I've ever heard use the line. We were debating on a bill in the House, and things were getting somewhat, uh, tended to be nasty, personal, that sort of thing. And I stood up and made a statement, that, "You know, we probably should all calm down. We're all God's children." And that statement kinda reverberated around and Clinton used it, uh, before he left office, and I had several people call me up and say, "Clinton used your phrase," you know. (Moyen laughs) Uh, "We thought that you, you were the only one who coined that phrase," and I thought but we're all God's children, and that, that was just, it, it was something that kinda lightened everybody up--

MOYEN: --um-hm--

OVERSTREET: --you know, and say, "Hey, you know, let's not get too personal about this thing. You know, we're all God's children," type.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

OVERSTREET: So, other than that, I've, I've, you know, but I've, I've had a great, uh, a great career--

MOYEN: --um-hm--

OVERSTREET: --in the House. I loved it.

MOYEN: Um-hm. I thank you for your time.

OVERSTREET: Well, I thank you. I thank you. My pleasure meeting you, and I, I love to talk with you.

MOYEN: Yeah.

OVERSTREET: We could talk all night.

MOYEN: Yeah. (both laugh)

[End of interview.]