Interview with William B. Sturgill, January 22, 2003

 BIRDWHISTELL: Great story. Well, Mr. Sturgill, it's January 22nd, cold day here in 2003.

STURGILL: Time moves on.

BIRDWHISTELL: I appreciate your letting me come and see you again. As a former Wildcat basketball player and a fan, and right here in the middle of the basketball season, as they say in Kentucky, how about those Cats? How are they doing? [Chuckle] What do you make of them this year?

STURGILL: Well, I happen to think they have a good team. I think they were slow getting out of the gate.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. Had some people worried, didn't they?

STURGILL: And the discipline problems they had last year, I was afraid was going to linger into this year. But I saw signs the last two ballgames where that's not true.

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm.

STURGILL: And I think they've got a good ball club, and they've got a good 00:01:00opportunity this year to be one of the leading contenders for a national championship.

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm. Umhmm. Well, it's fair to say you --

STURGILL: Having said that, --

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: -- I likewise realize and understand that the Southeastern Conference is strong, and a lot of these other conferences are strong. So basketball is on the upswing --

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: -- from the ability standpoint. It's just no longer good boys going to Kentucky and --

BIRDWHISTELL: And the rest --

STURGILL: -- Notre Dame and Oklahoma.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: They're going everywhere.

BIRDWHISTELL: It's -- I'm still not used to, when I turn on an SEC game of the week, you know, used to -- if UK wasn't playing, or maybe one other team in the conference, the games weren't hardly worth looking at. And now every SEC game has that kind of feel that only the ACC used to have, where it was good 00:02:00basketball, you know, very competitive. The fans are into it, the arenas are full.

STURGILL: The -- not only the fans, but the people are into it. You go in any store and you see something advertising -- they're trying to sell advertising basketball.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: And, of course, we field more -- our high schools in Kentucky field more basketball teams, by a high percentage number, than we do football teams.

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm.

STURGILL: Some schools now, since the consolidations have taken place, particularly in east Kentucky, --

BIRDWHISTELL: It's changed the football --

STURGILL: -- changed the football scene, but still not enough.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. So how is the 100-year celebration of UK basketball going from your perspective? Are you doing a lot of things with that?

STURGILL: No, I haven't. I'm hopeful that it will get enough interest that the 00:03:00museum --

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm.

STURGILL: -- can get itself squared away from this debt load they carry.

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm.

STURGILL: I was very critical of them getting into debt to the point they were, because I was afraid they couldn't --

BIRDWHISTELL: Turn it around.

STURGILL: -- couldn't do it. I've given them several pictures, and I've got one more over there on that wall that's -- it's the 25th Anniversary celebration of Rupp's boys.

BIRDWHISTELL: Really.

STURGILL: And I'm debating giving that to them.

BIRDWHISTELL: Hmm.

STURGILL: And I hate to part with it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Can't they just make a copy of it?

STURGILL: Well, yeah, but I would keep a copy, but I'd want them to have the original and the flair of it and --

BIRDWHISTELL: I see. Yeah.

STURGILL: I gave them the plate that went with it, the 25th Anniversary plate.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did you really?

STURGILL: And I'd kind of kept that in my office. It deserves a celebration. It deserves recognition. I thought the Joe Hall thing for his team the other night was great.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, that was good.

STURGILL: And the history of basketball that KET put on was too commercialized.

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm.

STURGILL: You couldn't watch the basketball for the commercials. So I'm enthused about it being 100 years.

BIRDWHISTELL: [Chuckle] And you're part of it.

STURGILL: I was part of it. And I always enjoyed that. My contribution wasn't very much, but it was just like the bat boy, I was there. [Chuckle]

BIRDWHISTELL: [Chuckle] Well, you did more than a lot of Kentuckians. I mean so many people would love to play for UK and you did it.

STURGILL: Coach Rupp and I got to be good friends after I got out of college. We weren't very close when I was in college. [Chuckle]

BIRDWHISTELL: I was going to say earlier, you'd -- it's fair to say you've known a lot of UK coaches, and I just thought since we're talking about this I'd ask you what you think about Tubby Smith. You know, he's won a national championship, he's won a high percentage of his games, but there's always a lingering criticism of him out there, and always sort of an undercurrent that he -- that this could be his last year.

STURGILL: Oh, you hear a lot of rumors about this being his last year. And I wouldn't be surprised if it's not his last year because of that.

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm.

STURGILL: I'm sure he's mindful of the undertow of all the goings-on. And I think personally -- and I don't know Tubby very well -- I made a pledge to myself that everybody deserves one college president and one college football coach and one college basketball coach.

BIRDWHISTELL: [Chuckle] You figure you've had yours.

STURGILL: I've had mine. [Chuckle--Birdwhistell] And fortunately, they've all made great contributions.

BIRDWHISTELL: Who was your football coach?

STURGILL: Fran Curci.

BIRDWHISTELL: I thought you might say Fran Curci.

STURGILL: He and I were pretty close. [Chuckle]

BIRDWHISTELL: [Chuckle] Oh, goodness. Goodness.

STURGILL: And I was close to Blanton Collier. But my first assignment, Terry, I might tell you --

BIRDWHISTELL: Uh-huh.

STURGILL: -- I was very active on campus when I was on campus, before they put 00:07:00the archives up.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: And I was on the committee that hired Paul Bryant.

BIRDWHISTELL: You were?

STURGILL: And I got there by reason of being president of the Student Government Association.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. Yeah.

STURGILL: And hired him on Sunday afternoon, and he was coaching at Maryland.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: And he walked in that room, and Dr. [Herman] Donovan, if you remember, was a man of stature, real small.

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm.

STURGILL: Small of stature.

BIRDWHISTELL: Small man.

STURGILL: And Bryant came through the private door.

BIRDWHISTELL: What room -- where were you?

STURGILL: In the president's office.

BIRDWHISTELL: Okay.

STURGILL: But they had it set up so he should have come in through the reception area, but he came through the private office. And he walked over to 00:08:00Dr. Donovan's desk, and Dr. Donovan was sitting there all surprised, as were the rest of the people. Everybody hadn't gotten there. Mr. Huguelet was president of Southeastern Greyhound. And he and Dr. Donovan and Bernie Shively did most of the talking. But Bryant's entrance was right over there at that desk. And he said, as I recall, "My name's Paul Bryant. I'm from Maryland. Did you want to talk to me?" [Both chuckling] And Dr. [Thomas D.] Clark -- I was sitting with Dr. Clark -- he punched me and he said, "Bill, they'll hire him in about twenty minutes." [Both chuckling] And, of course, --

BIRDWHISTELL: So you were there.

STURGILL: -- and, of course, I never said a word, and he didn't say anything. The three that I mentioned did all the talking, along with Dr. Donovan.

BIRDWHISTELL: What did they talk about?

STURGILL: Talking about what shape the football program was in, and the fact 00:09:00that the recruitment would have to be -- look for boys who were not Kentuckians. And Bryant gave them the right answer. And they -- oh, it wasn't thirty minutes, they did hire him that afternoon.

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm. What did you think of Paul "Bear" Bryant that first day when you saw him?

STURGILL: I liked him. I liked him then, I liked him later.

BIRDWHISTELL: What was it about him?

STURGILL: He was just an attractive fellow that asked no odds and gave none.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: I like the stories that are told about him. And I ran into him in the airport in Atlanta one day --

BIRDWHISTELL: You did?

STURGILL: -- after he had gone to Alabama.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: And I shook hands with him and I said, "What are you doing here?" He 00:10:00said, "If you go to hell, you go through Atlanta."

BIRDWHISTELL: [Chuckle] Pretty straight guy, wasn't he?

STURGILL: Yeah. [Chuckle]

BIRDWHISTELL: Did you watch that ESPN movie about him going to A&M?

STURGILL: Umhmm.

BIRDWHISTELL: What did you make of that?

STURGILL: Well, --

BIRDWHISTELL: What was that called? The Junction something Boys -- I forget what the title was. But it was just on.

STURGILL: Boys of --

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, whatever that place was.

STURGILL: Now, that was -- I've heard Terry Bradshaw talk about that. That must be a fairly true story.

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm. But that's the -- the Paul "Bear" Bryant you saw in that film was the one you remember?

STURGILL: Well, I can remember when he -- the first season he was here, Kentucky got beat one afternoon, or several afternoons. [Chuckle--Birdwhistell] 00:11:00But they got beat one afternoon, and the kids were all under old Stoll Field taking their uniforms off. And he came in and said, "Where are you boys going?" Said, "We're going home, get something to eat." Said, "No. Put those clothes back on. We're going to practice."

BIRDWHISTELL: Right after the game.

STURGILL: He took them back out on the field.

BIRDWHISTELL: Hmm. What about the stories about "Bear" Bryant and Rupp? Where do you come down on those?

STURGILL: Well, a lot of them were true. I think Bryant did not want to leave Kentucky.

BIRDWHISTELL: Really?

STURGILL: My personal opinion.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: And I thought he had -- when we got on probation in `52-`53, I think he had a commitment -- I don't know, he never told me, but I always -- and I 00:12:00heard it from people who were on the inside; I was not. I think he had a commitment from both the governor and the president that when this season was over, [that] they would let Rupp go.

BIRDWHISTELL: Really?

STURGILL: And when the time came, they didn't do it.

BIRDWHISTELL: How could they?

STURGILL: They should have never made the commitment, --

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. I mean that'd be an impossible --

STURGILL: -- if the commitment was made.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. That'd be hard to do.

STURGILL: But he had gone to A&M to get the job for Ermal.

BIRDWHISTELL: Hmm.

STURGILL: And then he took it himself.

BIRDWHISTELL: Hmm. I didn't know that. Hmm. I guess that's --

STURGILL: But I never did see any friction between them. The car and the 00:13:00banquet, and somebody gave Bryant a car and Rupp a -- I mean, Rupp a car and Bryant something else. [Chuckle--Birdwhistell] I never -- that didn't take place, to my knowledge.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. And Donovan was right in the middle of all this trying to keep it under control.

STURGILL: Dr. Donovan was a right shy man. And he -- those guys were challenges to him.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, they were. They'd have been challenges to anybody, wouldn't they?

STURGILL: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: But they certainly were to him. Well, you know, I guess people have always done the "what if." What if "Bear" Bryant had stayed at Kentucky? Can you --

STURGILL: And I thought Bernie Shively did a good job in trying to adhere to both of their wishes.

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm.

STURGILL: "Shive" was an even man, interested in the university. I thought he 00:14:00always had -- should have somebody around him who was a better administrator, who could get things done.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: Let him carry out policy matters.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, as a person who was on the committee that hired "Bear" Bryant, on the committee that hired C.M. Newton, on the committee that hired Rick Pitino, and I'm sure there are others that I don't know about, what did you make of this last effort on the part of the University of Kentucky to hire a football coach?

STURGILL: Well, Terry, I don't know that I know enough about it to comment on it --

BIRDWHISTELL: Okay. Well, that's fair.

STURGILL: -- except give you my personal observations.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: I think they did not put forth enough effort in the proper kind of 00:15:00way to keep [Guy] Morris.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, as a starting point.

STURGILL: As a starting point. Morris hadn't established himself -- he has -- had established himself that he could do something with a good football program.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: And he had taken one that was -- and turned it around in two seasons.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, with major restrictions.

STURGILL: With recruiting restrictions that would cripple anybody.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: And I thought he was entitled to another turn. I didn't know Morris very well, but I thought he was entitled to another turn. And I thought [Mitch] Barnhart stumped his toe badly when he didn't give him that turn.

BIRDWHISTELL: Hard for me to understand why you wouldn't give him the opportunity. But -- you couldn't lose on it, really.

STURGILL: That would have put him on the better side of the fence than he's on now.

BIRDWHISTELL: He's on a bad side of the fence right now. [Chuckle] Yeah, because if Morris had turned around and failed, you know, if you're Barnhart, you still gave the guy another -- I mean, you gave the guy a chance he'd earned, and who wouldn't have done that? I mean it's not like you would have been held accountable for that in a way. Plus, most people don't think Guy Morris would have failed. That's the other thing.

STURGILL: And Morris would not have failed, in my opinion.

BIRDWHISTELL: I don't think he would have.

STURGILL: I think his schedule is such that -- now, he fooled around or got misled. You read between the lines. Some people out there misled him, like the assistants, coaches who he knew and had a rapport with. They misled him to a 00:17:00point where he came up and -- with a guy 61-years-old, been out of coaching two years.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, he hadn't lost a game in two years. [Chuckle]

STURGILL: Hadn't won one either. And I'm glad to see these boys who are -- well, I don't guess they've got any other choice at this point in time for the future of getting where the money is, --

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: -- staying and giving the impression that they're going to support this guy.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. Yeah. I was listening to one of those crazy sports talk shows on the radio last night. I was driving somewhere. They were talking about the recruits coming in and they said, "Well, if you look at their size, they look like a flag football team." [Both chuckling] He said, "We don't have any beef!" [Chuckle]

STURGILL: Well, that's probably true. I -- you know, he's got restrictions on 00:18:00his recruiting right now.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. Yeah.

STURGILL: And he -- but the age thing bothers me more than anything else, because I'm an old man and I know what age does to you. [Both chuckling]

BIRDWHISTELL: Now, at 61, you were pretty busy. [Chuckle] Oh, that's funny. Well, there's never a shortage of issues revolving around UK sports.

STURGILL: The most interesting assignment I had was being chairman of the committee that hired Rick Pitino.

BIRDWHISTELL: Tell me about that. I was going to ask you about that. Let's talk about that now. Now, you were appointed by --

STURGILL: Dr. [David] Roselle.

BIRDWHISTELL: -- by Dr. Roselle to chair that committee. S.T. Roach was on that committee. Charles Wethington was on that committee. I can't think of the --

STURGILL: I can't -- I'm sure you've got them there.

BIRDWHISTELL: I don't know that I brought that or not. But it was a pretty good committee. Now let's see, Robert Lawson from the law school was on there.

STURGILL: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: Peggy Meszaros, Dean of the College of Home Ec, Terry Mobley, Dick Parsons, Bobby Watson from Owensboro, a UK trustee. I mentioned Mr. Roach. So that's the -- you had a good committee there.

STURGILL: Good committee. And we had enough applications to fill a bushel basket.

BIRDWHISTELL: Really?

STURGILL: But --

BIRDWHISTELL: Now, did you all offer the job to [P.J.] Carlissimo?

STURGILL: Yes, we did.

BIRDWHISTELL: Uh-huh.

STURGILL: And I thought he was going to take it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, why didn't he?

STURGILL: I don't remember.

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm. Did you like him okay?

STURGILL: If he'd shaved I would have. [Both chuckling]

BIRDWHISTELL: It was odd seeing a basketball coach with a beard, wasn't it?

STURGILL: Yeah. [Chuckle] But my best story about that, Terry, is that C.M. came to me and said --

BIRDWHISTELL: He'd just been hired as athletics director.

STURGILL: -- and we'd hired him down at Bowling Green, --

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: -- and he said, "Bill, let's go see Rick Pitino."

BIRDWHISTELL: Did you know who that was? STURGILL: Hell, no, I didn't know who [both chuckling] Rick Pitino was. And I said, "Is he the coach of the Knicks?" And he said, "Yes."

BIRDWHISTELL: Why are we going to see him? [Chuckle]

STURGILL: I said, "What do you know about him?" Said, "He's the most young, viable coach -- basketball coach in -- ." I said, "He's at the next level."

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: "You remember, we're college level here." [Chuckle--Birdwhistell] "Well, yeah, but he's -- he won at Providence, and he grew up in college basketball and he might come back." I said, "Do you have any reason to believe 00:21:00that?" He said, "No." Said, "Let's take your plane." I said, "Oh, I see why you want me to go. You want a ride." [Both chuckling]

BIRDWHISTELL: He was looking for a ride!

STURGILL: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, you were chair of the committee, though. He had every reason to take you.

STURGILL: This is a true story. And I said, "Well, that's no -- let's get real."

And so he goes up there. I said, "What you'll find is that he's got two Mercedes parked in the driveway, and he lives in a big home in Long Island." I had read that somewhere.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: And I said, "He's not going to come to Lexington." Well, he goes up there and meets Rick.

BIRDWHISTELL: And you didn't go with him.

STURGILL: I did not go. And he had a visit with him one afternoon and he said, "Call me." He said, "You're mistaken." I said, "Say that again." He said, "He 00:22:00wants to come for an interview."

BIRDWHISTELL: Wants to come.

STURGILL: I said, "That's a feather in your cap. Whether you get him or not, that's a feather in your cap."

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm.

STURGILL: And he -- Rick came down here.

BIRDWHISTELL: Okay.

STURGILL: I don't remember how he got down here, but he came.

BIRDWHISTELL: So tell me about how that works out. He shows up.

STURGILL: He shows up.

BIRDWHISTELL: What kind of things do you all do with him?

STURGILL: We met him in the Sturgill Building.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, that's appropriate. [Chuckle]

STURGILL: Nobody would have thought anything about going to that building to interview a basketball coach. [Chuckle] And this was Roselle's idea.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. Who was at the meeting?

STURGILL: That -- these people.

BIRDWHISTELL: People on the committee.

STURGILL: Yeah, and --

BIRDWHISTELL: C.M. Newton.

STURGILL: -- Dave Roselle.

BIRDWHISTELL: And Rick Pitino.

STURGILL: Rick Pitino.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did he have anybody with him, or did he just come alone?

STURGILL: He came alone. And he asked us if Carlissimo had been there and who 00:23:00else. And we told him, and I've forgotten who; the records will show it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Carlissimo is the only one that I've seen, actually.

STURGILL: We interviewed a lot of lesser ones, maybe one-on-one without a --

BIRDWHISTELL: Carlissimo is the only one you offered the job to.

STURGILL: Yes. And so we -- he talked about his philosophy, and the big thing he said, he said, "I'm a college basketball coach. I'm not an NBA showman."

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: And we had a break, and had -- they've got a little refreshment room off to the side of the boardroom over there in that building, and he and I were in there. And he said, "Mr. Sturgill, I'm going to take this job if I can convince my wife to come to Lexington." I said, "Coach, just a minute. You're 00:24:00talking to the wrong guy. Let me get Dr. Roselle [chuckle] and C.M. in here." So they came in there and he told them.

BIRDWHISTELL: He was going to take it.

STURGILL: Going to take the job. And said he needed to talk to his wife, and where was a telephone. I said, "Boy, my wife -- me call her -- if she was a dancer on Broadway, she wouldn't come." [Chuckle] So they went over to Maxwell Place and they stayed about an hour or longer. And just the two of them went with him.

BIRDWHISTELL: Newton and Roselle?

STURGILL: And Roselle. And they came back and said, "Where can we get a plane to get Joanne down here?"

BIRDWHISTELL: They asked you that? STURGILL: Yeah. [Chuckle--Birdwhistell] And they knew what they were doing. [Chuckle] I said, "Well, if she doesn't have to get here quick," I said, "I've got a prop plane, not a jet." So we got a jet and brought her down here. And they turned her over to Evelyn and Mrs. Roselle, and she visited the campus and she visited around town, and they left.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did you meet her when she came down?

STURGILL: Yes.

BIRDWHISTELL: What did you think of her?

STURGILL: Well, she's pretty distant. But she was friendly.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: And he took that job [chuckle--Birdwhistell] on that one interview. And I thought it was amazing that he didn't want to know any more than he knew.

BIRDWHISTELL: Really? So it wasn't like detailed negotiation and this, that, and whatever?

STURGILL: He didn't, in my presence, ask, Terry, about the probation, about the limitation of scholarships.

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm.

STURGILL: He met those boys, and the rest is history.

BIRDWHISTELL: Wow. So all he does is show up and take an overachieving bunch of basketball players, with a high percentage of Kentucky players --

STURGILL: Well, "The Unforgettables", is that what they're called? Unfor---

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, "Unforgettables".

STURGILL: Yeah. They were all Kentucky boys.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: Those -- [Richie] Farmer --

BIRDWHISTELL: [John] Pelphrey.

STURGILL: -- Pelphrey, [Deron] Feldhaus, and [Sean] Woods.

BIRDWHISTELL: Of course, getting [Jamal] Mashburn as one of his first recruits was a very important part of his success.

STURGILL: But I think he brought -- in addition to bringing good basketball, he brought a flair that was badly needed.

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm. It really changed things, didn't it? STURGILL: And he brought enthusiasm.

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm. Changed the whole way Rupp Arena worked, and the announcers, and all of that.

STURGILL: And I thought one of the greatest things he did -- I think Tubby still does it -- have the post-game interview on the floor.

BIRDWHISTELL: Out on the floor. That's right. That's right. Huh.

STURGILL: As Cawood [Ledford] said, "There's one thing wrong with it."

BIRDWHISTELL: What?

STURGILL: "They didn't give Rick and me enough time to drink the champagne between the game and the start of the interview." [Chuckle]

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh, goodness. I tell you, that night Pitino took his team out to 00:28:00Kansas that first year, though, and got thumped by what, fifty points or more? That was quite a night, wasn't it?

STURGILL: That was a long trip home, too.

BIRDWHISTELL: And then he thumped them the next year.

STURGILL: Those boys really suffered that week.

BIRDWHISTELL: So during the time that Pitino was here, did you have a lot of interaction with him then?

STURGILL: I did not.

BIRDWHISTELL: Really?

STURGILL: No, I said I've had my -- I just decided I didn't want to get that close to the program.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: I took him a few places I thought he should go, made my plane available to him. But I didn't socialize with him and -- or with [Bill] Curry.

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm. And, of course, it wasn't long after Pitino's success, and everybody was fired up, that then those rumors started circulating that he 00:29:00was going to leave, he was going to leave, and then he did.

STURGILL: Well, C.M. didn't know what to do.

BIRDWHISTELL: What could he do?

STURGILL: And I -- he came to me, and was sitting right there. C.M. was talking about money. I said, "The guy doesn't want money. He can make more money walking up and down the street than you and I can."

BIRDWHISTELL: Out working for it. [Chuckle]

STURGILL: They got to be pretty good friends, --

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: -- C.M. and Pitino.

OTHER VOICE: Excuse me. How you doing?

STURGILL: I thought he was the [inaudible].

BIRDWHISTELL: The -- I guess in some ways, Coach Pitino was always bigger than this place, in a sense, wasn't he? I mean wasn't it hard for him to sort of fit into Lexington in a way?

STURGILL: Well, people who were close to him said he had a hard time. But I think that -- and I don't know, but I think that was just a problem that he had to deal with at home.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: Times I was with him socially, he was very comfortable.

BIRDWHISTELL: Was he? Okay. So you liked him.

STURGILL: I liked him. Still do. And I'd have brought him back here. I'd have brought him back here.

BIRDWHISTELL: How would you have done it?

STURGILL: I'd have taken that Michigan job and sent Tubby to Michigan. [Chuckle]

BIRDWHISTELL: Why didn't we do it?

STURGILL: I don't think that C.M. could get the support to do it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Do you think Pitino wanted to come back? STURGILL: Oh, yeah. I don't think Charlie would tip it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Would do what?

STURGILL: Charlie Wethington would tip it. Hell, I'd have tipped it. You'd be -- you know, these decision people like to make you unpopular for two or three days, or two or three weeks, or the dogs don't bark at you. But that all goes away--

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm.

STURGILL: -- soon as the good things start happening.

BIRDWHISTELL: Would Tubby have played along with that?

STURGILL: I doubt it.

BIRDWHISTELL: So it would have been messy.

STURGILL: I think you'd had to force it. But I likewise believe, and this is just my opinion, that as soon as this kid graduates out here, --

BIRDWHISTELL: Which is this year.

STURGILL: -- this year, that Tubby and his family will go to the pros.

BIRDWHISTELL: And Rick will be in Louisville.

STURGILL: Rick will be in Louisville, and we'll be looking for a 61-year-old basketball coach. [Both chuckling]

BIRDWHISTELL: Maybe we could get what's-his-name out at Arizona to finally 00:32:00come. He's about old enough for us, isn't he? [Chuckle]

STURGILL: [Chuckle] Lefty Driesell.

BIRDWHISTELL: Maybe Lefty will come. [Chuckle] Oh. Well, we won't get Rick back from Louisville, will we?

STURGILL: I don't think he'd leave Louisville.

BIRDWHISTELL: No.

STURGILL: I haven't talked to him since he's been in Louisville. I didn't want him to go to Louisville. I wanted him to take the Michigan job. Then it'd been easy. And he had the Michigan job.

BIRDWHISTELL: So why did he not -- why did he come to Louisville? STURGILL: Well, he likes Kentucky, he likes the horse business; he's in the horse business, got a lot of friends. I guess Seth Hancock and these guys know more about him than anybody.

BIRDWHISTELL: I didn't realize until the other day, I'm so out of the loop, you know, that Seth Hancock and -- was so close --

STURGILL: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: -- to them. Hmm.

STURGILL: In fact, I was reading in the Courier Sunday where they've created -- on the third floor of Churchill Downs in this renovation, they've created 24 luxury boxes on the third floor. You might have read the same story.

BIRDWHISTELL: I didn't see that, no.

STURGILL: And GE and Fifth-Third and PNC and National City and all those corporate type, picked those up real quick.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: But Rick Pitino got one. [Chuckle--Birdwhistell] I thought that was --

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh, he's bigger than life sometimes, isn't he?

STURGILL: -- I thought that was pretty sharp.

BIRDWHISTELL: Hmm.

STURGILL: And it went on ahead to tell that they had fixed it up to entertain 00:34:00their clients.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: And Rick Pitino's name came up and I said, "And recruit players." [Chuckle]

BIRDWHISTELL: [Chuckle] Can you imagine the recruiting value of that? Wow. Wow. You know, looking back a little bit from that Pitino era, and thinking about the 100-year celebration, it's striking to me how Eddie Sutton is being handled in this 100-year celebration. I'm sure it's been noticeable to you, too. What do you make of that?

STURGILL: Well, I thought Eddie was a good basketball coach. I encouraged him to come here. I was not officially with the university except carrying Singletary's luggage.

[Chuckle--Birdwhistell] And -- but he was a personable guy.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: And so was Patsy, very personable lady. And when he made the statement that, "For the Kentucky job, I'd walk from Arkansas to Kentucky."

BIRDWHISTELL: He might have said crawled. I don't know, did he say walk?

STURGILL: I thought he said walk. I said, "They'd better hire that guy, Professor."

BIRDWHISTELL: He wants -- he's hungry.

STURGILL: But then he got -- he had big personal problems when he was here.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: And I think he overcome them.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did he not have them before he came?

STURGILL: Probably, but I don't know.

BIRDWHISTELL: But he found himself in a -- it just got in a bad situation for him here, didn't it? Hmm. But he sure has won since he left.

STURGILL: He's got a good ball club this year. I saw them on television.

BIRDWHISTELL: I like watching them play. They're a good team to watch.

STURGILL: Fundamentally good.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. And they're in a tough conference, too. That is a -- that is one tough conference. Bobby Knight's changed all that out there. [Chuckle]

STURGILL: Bobby Knight and Eddie Sutton will change the Southwest. [Chuckle]

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. It really is amazing to me, Mr. Sturgill, that you have these guys who can just flat-out coach, and it doesn't matter where they are, you know, you -- Rick Pitino can go to U of L and they can have nothing and he can win, Bobby Knight go out to Texas Tech, and everybody thought, "What is he doing going out there?" All these -- what is he, 23rd in the nation right now, right?

STURGILL: Yeah. He's ranked.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: I don't know where he is.

BIRDWHISTELL: Eddie Sutton, you know, was down and out and crawled home to Oklahoma State and turned it around.

STURGILL: Now they're back on top.

BIRDWHISTELL: Back on top. So these guys can flat-out coach, can't they?

STURGILL: And they're good recruiters. I've always said Bobby Knight couldn't 00:37:00recruit my house, but he could in some people's.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. Obviously, he can get into somebody. Yeah.

STURGILL: But UK athletics is well financed. Basketball is important in Kentucky. Football is important in Kentucky, but football, with the premium that's on sporting events, is two things. It's the sporting events, but it's a social occasion. There's more people that talk about tailgating and go to tailgate than go to ballgames. [Chuckle--Birdwhistell] And these people from east Kentucky, --

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: -- they'd rather be out there drinking beer and being in the 00:38:00atmosphere than attending the football game. They don't know what a guard's supposed to do, or an end.

BIRDWHISTELL: It really is the ambiance, isn't it?

STURGILL: Yeah. So it's a social event as well as a sporting event. And they're at a premium in Kentucky.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: Recreation's at a premium in Kentucky. But basketball, everybody knows about that.

BIRDWHISTELL: Now, you have a box out there, don't you?

STURGILL: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: You like it?

STURGILL: Well, yes. I like it. My age likes it.

BIRDWHISTELL: [Chuckle] It came at a perfect time, didn't it?

STURGILL: And these guys wanted it around here. They --

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: -- they felt like that they were selling me on it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm.

STURGILL: I had good seats. [Chuckle] I was going to keep good seats.

BIRDWHISTELL: But it's not bad being inside sometimes, is it?

STURGILL: But being inside was appealing. But it has worked out wonderfully well for one reason.

BIRDWHISTELL: What's that? STURGILL: We allocate those tickets to these resident engineers on the various jobs we have.

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm.

STURGILL: And now that word's spread. And they like to come up there and eat their lunch and bring their wife. And they look forward to it. And now, most everybody who's in the construction business or in some kind of business that's public-oriented, they want that box.

BIRDWHISTELL: They're looking to work with you.

STURGILL: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, that's the way those things are supposed to work.

STURGILL: And I'm pleased. I wouldn't take your family up there. Hell, they can go out there and sit where I sit.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: But it's really worked well for us.

BIRDWHISTELL: That's good. I know Dr. Singletary has mentioned on a couple of 00:40:00occasions how warm and dry he felt at the football game. [Both chuckling] Don't tell him I said that. [Chuckle]

STURGILL: No, he -- that's a professor? [Chuckle] He likes it, and he needs it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. Yeah. It's worked out.

STURGILL: And then our kids are up there, and he's pretty close to them.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: We take his -- Kendall up there.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. Yeah. Getting back to our -- I guess part of our chronology here that we sometimes adhere to, when I'm looking at your life and career from the late `70s through the `80s, there's just an unbelievable amount of stuff going on. And the amount of -- the number of things you were involved 00:41:00in at the highest levels and the amount of activity that you were engaged in, is just a -- is very, very impressive. And makes my job difficult to know where to start in asking -- let me turn this over.

[End of Tape #1, Side #1]

[Begin Tape #1, Side #2]

BIRDWHISTELL: But we've talked a little bit last time about your appointment to the UK board in 1974, and your relationship with President Singletary, and the people who were on the board with you, and some of those issues. But by the late `70s things are going to change again because your friend, John Y. Brown, [Jr.] comes out of nowhere and -- to run for governor and wins. And I was 00:42:00wondering if you could just spend a little bit of time today telling me, sort of from your perspective, how that `79 gubernatorial race went. And then we'll go from there in terms of how then, you end up being in the cabinet in the Brown administration. So if you could sort of just walk me through that campaign, and where you were in that, and how you saw it kind of working out.

STURGILL: Let me go back and make one comment about the board of trustees.

BIRDWHISTELL: Okay.

STURGILL: I welcomed the opportunity to be on the board of trustees because I thought if we were ever going to do anything about improving the quality of life in Kentucky, it had to be through education. And while I thought more about 00:43:00primary and secondary education, I nonetheless knew that higher education had to be the leader --

BIRDWHISTELL: Hmm. Umhmm.

STURGILL: -- and the others would follow. And so for that reason, to improve the quality of life in Kentucky is the reason that I was anxious to play a role in education.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

STURGILL: In `79, we were anxious to have a governor that would be favorable to the university. And Terry McBrayer, if you remember, was an early candidate.

BIRDWHISTELL: He was the -- I guess known as the administration candidate.

STURGILL: Yes. And Terry and I talked, and others were along, and I started 00:44:00out being for Terry McBrayer.

BIRDWHISTELL: You did?

STURGILL: Well, my father and John Brown, Sr., had been friends for years and years, and I knew Mr. Brown and knew the family. Had no idea John was going to run. He didn't either.

BIRDWHISTELL: I was going to say, [chuckle] he'd have to know before you could know.

STURGILL: He didn't either. Now, what happened to get him all revved up, I don't know. You'll have to ask somebody about the background.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. Well, I hope -- one day I hope to ask him. [Chuckle]

STURGILL: Well, that's good. I applaud you. [Chuckle]

BIRDWHISTELL: You don't think I'll ever get to, probably.

STURGILL: Well, I'll help you with it if you want me to.

BIRDWHISTELL: I'd appreciate it. I appreciate that.

STURGILL: He -- so he announced and called me and I said, "Well, John, you know 00:45:00I'm going to be for you if you're going to run seriously."

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: "And if you're going to get in this thing to win, you know I'll be for you because of the connections we've had in the past." Didn't know him very well. And he told me he was, and fellows convinced me that they were going to do -- shoot the moon, and so I had to go to Terry and tell Terry.

BIRDWHISTELL: That's tough, isn't it?

STURGILL: Tough. Was tough.

BIRDWHISTELL: So you set up a time to go see him.

STURGILL: I made an appointment with him and told him why I wanted to see him.

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh, you told him in advance.

STURGILL: Yeah. So I went and we talked about an hour and I told him why, and he said, "Well, blah, blah." We just reviewed the situation in some detail, and 00:46:00he was always saying that John couldn't be a formidable candidate. I said, "Well, he can if he says the right things and does the right things, Terry. I'm going to be for him."

BIRDWHISTELL: So that should have been an indication to Terry McBrayer, if Bill Sturgill's coming into his office and telling him, "I was for you, but now I'm switching to John Y. Brown -- ."

STURGILL: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: That's an early indication of what's going to come, isn't it? STURGILL: Yes. It should have been. And it was to him.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: So -- and it hasn't -- it affected our friendship, I think, but time has mellowed that.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. Well, it had to hurt him. I mean --

STURGILL: No. In fact it made him in the sense that he went to work.

BIRDWHISTELL: Ah. Ah. You motivated him. [Chuckle]

STURGILL: He owed a lot of money.

BIRDWHISTELL: Uh-huh.

STURGILL: And he wasn't about to go out here and ask people to pay it off for him.

BIRDWHISTELL: I see.

STURGILL: So he went to work and paid it off.

BIRDWHISTELL: I see.

STURGILL: And I admire him for it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: And he's put together a right good law firm.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. He's done well. But you cleared the decks so you can be for Brown.

STURGILL: I cleared the decks. And, of course, I had a lot of people working for me, about 375 people, and it looked like Brown headquarters. [Both chuckling] And, of course, my father was living then, and he just sat on the telephone all the time. Floyd County was the biggest county John had.

BIRDWHISTELL: Really?

STURGILL: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: Huh.

STURGILL: And he carried Perry well. I always thought I'd like to be in public life but I never said anything to John. So after the primary was over -- and he 00:48:00had a lot of guys that -- reportedly to be closer to him than I was.

BIRDWHISTELL: Like who?

STURGILL: Larry Townsend and --

BIRDWHISTELL: Okay.

STURGILL: -- and Frank Metts.

BIRDWHISTELL: Frank Metts.

STURGILL: And he catered to that Louisville crowd. So [I] met him at the football game that fall. And he said -- we were down in the President's Room having lunch and he says, "If I can give four years of my life to the people of Kentucky, you can give two years of your life." [Chuckle--Birdwhistell] And I said, "What are you talking about?" He said, "I want you to come in the cabinet and take this energy department out here and do something with it."

BIRDWHISTELL: Hmm.

STURGILL: And I said, "Well, it needs it." And he said, "Will you do it?" Of course, that's John, you know.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right there.

STURGILL: Right there. "Will you?" I said, "Well, I'll have to think about it. I've got a whole lot on my plate."

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. Yeah.

STURGILL: So I thought about it and looked at it. And I knew the reaction of the Courier.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right.

STURGILL: And they busted my ass.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: In fact they drove me out of the coal business. I had to sell my coal company. Barry [Bingham], Jr., did.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: So --

BIRDWHISTELL: You didn't anticipate you'd have to do that?

STURGILL: No. No. I did not anticipate that.

BIRDWHISTELL: Hmm.

STURGILL: And so Singletary said, "Are you going to do this?" I said, "Yeah." Then of course, I was advising with him.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did he want you to do it? Because it would complicate things for you as chairman --

STURGILL: Well, of course, I was chairman of the board.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: And he thought that that would be all right. I'd be in on "the know."

BIRDWHISTELL: [Chuckle] Well, for sure.

STURGILL: So he said, "Well, if you do this, you have to work for a dollar a year." Said, "You've got plenty of money." I said, "How in the hell do you know I've got plenty of money?" "You've got plenty of money." [Chuckle]

BIRDWHISTELL: "You've got plenty -- ." [Chuckle] People are always telling you you've got plenty of money, aren't they? [Chuckle]

STURGILL: So we went over to Frankfort to the inauguration --

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh, that's funny.

STURGILL: -- and, really, it was still in doubt in my mind whether I'd do it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Really? At the time of the inauguration?

STURGILL: And John said to me, said, "I want you to be the first person after we swear in the adjutant general, --"

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: -- that -- you swear in." I said, "You mean today?" [Chuckle--Birdwhistell] "Yeah," he said, "right now."

BIRDWHISTELL: Right now. [Chuckle] "I don't mean today, I mean right now." [Chuckle]

STURGILL: And in the -- and I'd told him that if I did this, I'd probably do it for a dollar a year; I was still thinking about that.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: Damned if he didn't walk in there, Terry, and announce that after he swore in the -- whoever that boy, adjutant general, --

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: -- he swore me in as [both chuckling] secretary and announced it, and I was going to work for a dollar a year.

BIRDWHISTELL: Wow.

STURGILL: Well, of course, that nailed me to the cross right there.

BIRDWHISTELL: There you were.

STURGILL: Boy, that was a miserable afternoon.

BIRDWHISTELL: And the criticism came.

STURGILL: The criticism came, and the fox guarding the henhouse and all that stuff. It was a tough period of time. And I said them son of a bitches aren't running me out of --

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: -- my business and my vocation and the way I'm making a livelihood.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: But I finally gave up on that. They wasn't going to run me out of 00:52:00the government either.

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm. Now, there were at least two dollar-a-year men and --

STURGILL: Bill Young.

BIRDWHISTELL: Mr. Young. And that made quite a story, that John Y. Brown had Bill Sturgill and Bill Young, the central figures in his cabinet, basically for a dollar a year.

STURGILL: And surprisingly, a lot of people don't know this, but Bill Young worked at it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. Well, anybody who knows you and Bill Young know that you both worked at it, right?

STURGILL: Yeah. And Bill would get so damn mad. John wouldn't come -- John would never come to a cabinet meeting. Bill would always -- said, "You and Bill are there, aren't you? Why do I go?" [Chuckle--Birdwhistell] It was a -- of course, Bill, he quit -- I mean, he didn't quit, he stepped back.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: And when he stepped back I stepped up, I guess, and took on more responsibility.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: We had that problem with Alben Barkley.

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh, is that when that happened?

STURGILL: And --

BIRDWHISTELL: That was -- the issue over the harassment?

STURGILL: The issue was what authority he had and what authority the governor had.

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh, this -- so that was prior to his --

STURGILL: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: -- other problems, yeah.

STURGILL: And I said, "Well, the way to solve it, we'll just take the agriculture department over and leave him over there with his constitutional authorities."

BIRDWHISTELL: [Chuckle] Let him have the authority.

STURGILL: John said, "Well, what's that -- ." So I told him, I said, "We'll just move the agriculture department to the energy department and leave him with just his constitutional duties."

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: He [inaudible]. [Chuckle--Birdwhistell] And I [inaudible], "What the hell are you doing?" Which end of the cow are you going to milk? [Chuckle] But it worked out well. We -- I enjoyed putting programs together and seeing them work. I enjoyed, naturally, doing things for the energy field that I think are just now beginning to take form into reality.

BIRDWHISTELL: Like what?

STURGILL: Like this synthetic fuel program.

BIRDWHISTELL: That was big. I mean that was central to what you were doing, wasn't it?

STURGILL: Central. We had it about done. If the administration hadn't changed in Washington, Terry, we'd have four major synthetic fuel plants in Kentucky, coal conversion plants.

BIRDWHISTELL: [Gerald R.] Ford wasn't big on it, but then when [Ronald] Reagan comes in, everything changes, right?

STURGILL: The need, the demand for it. We'd gone through the oil embargo, and the price got to be more -- lower, it got lower and more competitive, and there wasn't the need at the hour. And I could not convince them about the future.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. Yeah. Well, everybody knew the future was going to need it, but no one wanted to pay for it now.

STURGILL: And we were importing 52 percent of our oil at that time. We are now importing 54 percent --

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right?

STURGILL: -- as we sit this morning. And it's more -- the price is $32-something a barrel. We got our -- the conversion plant, the hydrocarbon plant up at Ashland, we got it down to $33-something at one point in time. But 00:56:00it was in its infancy. Coal conversion is going to be greater in the future than it has in the past for one reason. The reserve of energy in the ground, it's 94 percent coal.

BIRDWHISTELL: Ninety-four percent.

STURGILL: And eventually, America is going to have to look at it as a source of the basic fuel for our nation.

BIRDWHISTELL: Hmm.

STURGILL: We're out of natural gas. I get all the bulletins from the Natural Gas Association. And based on third-quarter end, based on current consumption, we're five years behind in our current drilling to keep up with it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Really?

STURGILL: And we're out on the outer shelf. We're out on -- all domestic drilling is about done.

BIRDWHISTELL: What happens when you run out of natural gas? How do you heat these homes?

STURGILL: Going to have to use coal to make natural gas.

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh, so you can use -- you can turn coal into natural gas?

STURGILL: Well, sure. We've already -- we've been professionals at electrifying it. We've learned how to liquefy it --

BIRDWHISTELL: Okay.

STURGILL: -- and gasify it. And we're more in our infancy about gasifying it than we are the other two.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, because you mostly think of turning coal into electricity.

STURGILL: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: Because that's what we -- I mean we're very familiar with that in this area.

STURGILL: Yeah, but people don't understand it. People used to -- my grandkids used to -- after we moved to Lexington, went to the Lexington School. "Is your 00:58:00grandfather in the coal business? Isn't that dirty? Ugly?" Yeah. Yeah. [Chuckle--Birdwhistell] Matthew used to say, "But it keeps that burning up there." Of course, I'd tell him --

BIRDWHISTELL: He understood where it went. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, when I was thinking about your appointment as energy secretary, it was at a really crucial time in the development of many of these things. And energy was at the top of everybody's list of concerns.

STURGILL: Terry, it's still the most discussed subject in the four corners of the world, --

BIRDWHISTELL: Is it?

STURGILL: -- is energy.

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm.

STURGILL: We fought a war over energy.

BIRDWHISTELL: And might fight another one. [Chuckle]

STURGILL: And -- well, if John -- George Bush doesn't stop beating the drum, we're going to fight one.

BIRDWHISTELL: How hard was it, as a guy who had started his own businesses, run 00:59:00his own businesses, did what you wanted, bought what you wanted, hired who you wanted, fired who you wanted, to get into state government where none of that works like that? [Chuckle]

STURGILL: Well, I guess it was tough for me. But I guess I understood it better than John Brown did; [chuckle--Birdwhistell] because John reduced the people in government from 32,000 when we went there to 28,000. And he did it not by the rule book --

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: -- but by the need and the contribution they were making. And we paid for a lot of it because it wasn't done by the rule book. And I've forgotten the number, but out of the reduction of employees, a lot of them sued 01:00:00and got benefits. Then, of course, some of them weren't under the merit system and didn't benefit from it. But it was hard.

BIRDWHISTELL: Things moved a little slower than you were used to, I know. I assume that must have been the case.

STURGILL: I remember walking through the energy department one day, and we had an accounting -- because of these synthetic fuel problems and the various companies we had who were participants, we were very careful to have an accounting system that would identify it all.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: And there's a little girl sitting there doing her nails. [Chuckle--Birdwhistell] And I said -- I scooted up on her desk. I said, "Let's you and me make a deal." She thought I was some smart-aleck. She said, "I 01:01:00don't make deals." I said, "Well, just for openers, you don't do your nails on company time, and I won't mention it to you any more. My name is Mr. Sturgill." She liked to died. That little girl quit. I got home, I told that story, and Eloise, she said, "You're the meanest bastard I know."

[Both chuckling] Said, "You don't even know that little girl, whether she needed that job."

BIRDWHISTELL: [Chuckle] So she just quit?

STURGILL: But that's what you went through, and that's what's in government today. He's -- Patton's bloated it up to 38,000. Hell, they're running over each other.

BIRDWHISTELL: And, of course, that gives the Republican leadership in the senate ammunition for opposing Patton's policies.

STURGILL: And he's going to have a hard time selling his program he was trying 01:02:00to sell yesterday about increasing business taxes until he reduces government --

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm.

STURGILL: -- to where it's workable and doable --

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm.

STURGILL: -- and efficient.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. Just what I read about it this morning in the paper, his attempt to get the business community to go along with his tax on business, at a speech yesterday, I guess, at the chamber -- state chamber of commerce, I was wondering how you sell that to people in business who are working all the time to, you know, get the profit margin workable, cut costs, but look at state government and, fairly or unfairly, think that it's not efficient.

STURGILL: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: And, you know, I guess government can never be as efficient as the private sector, but you hope to move in that direction, right?

STURGILL: Well, it should be. It should be. And people who run for governor 01:03:00ought to run on that kind of platform, Terry. They ought to make it important to have efficiency in government.

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm. It ought to be a goal, shouldn't it? Ought to be a goal.

STURGILL: But I enjoyed my days in government.

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm.

STURGILL: I didn't do everything that I wanted to do because that synthetic fuel program came apart. In fact I resigned as secretary of energy and went to Washington trying to get on the synthetic fuel board. Ford -- that was Wendell's big idea.

BIRDWHISTELL: Uh-huh.

STURGILL: And that lasted about two months, I think, and then I saw -- I was in the White House for an interview and some lady with a big flowing dress came into the interview room and said, "Are you the William B. Sturgill who signed a 01:04:00note for the Democratic National Committee once?" [Chuckle--Birdwhistell] I said, "Where'd he live?" Said, "Hazard, Kentucky." I said, "Yes, ma'am."

BIRDWHISTELL: That'd be me.

STURGILL: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: The -- you know, the syn-fuel effort got real wobbly because of the lack of federal support, is that right? And Kentucky was trying to push it, trying to lead the way.

STURGILL: Did lead the way.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did lead the way.

STURGILL: We had all coal-producing states come in here and said, "Show us what you're doing. Explain to us so we can get on the bandwagon." But just this last week, DOE gave the energy center an eight million dollar grant.

BIRDWHISTELL: Eight million?

STURGILL: And I've forgotten what they're going to do. But it's along the lines of coal conversion.

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm.

STURGILL: But it'll grow.

BIRDWHISTELL: You mentioned earlier that The Courier-Journal and Barry Bingham Jr. forced you out of the coal business during this period. How did that happen? Was it just through the continued discussion of it in -- on the pages of The Courier-Journal?

STURGILL: You let them beat you seven days on the editorial page in succession, and I just said I can't take this, you know. I can't do my work and do what I need to do about my tobacco business, my fertilizer business, and my other things. I'll wind up doing nothing. I'll sell the damn coal company. Well, 01:06:00Reading & Bates, an offshore drilling company, had been after me for some time to help them get in the coal business.

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm.

STURGILL: I didn't know them. So I sold it to them. Then I had to buy it back when the oil business went bad.

BIRDWHISTELL: [Chuckle] And then afterwards, I guess, in a 1986 article this issue came up again; headline, "Ex-State Energy Secretary Bought Control Of Coal Firm During Term." And there it was again. There you're back in it again.

STURGILL: Well, that wasn't entirely accurate; in `86 I bought back Golden Oak.

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm.

STURGILL: But I signed a note for Richard and Paul in `8---

BIRDWHISTELL: Eighty-one.

STURGILL: -- `81.

BIRDWHISTELL: June of `81.

STURGILL: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, not June of `81; it was --

STURGILL: And they just hit that -- all I did was sign a note at Citizens Fidelity Bank in Louisville, guaranteed payment of a company they bought called Big Elk Creek Coal Company.

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm.

STURGILL: Of course, they made it appear I was right back in it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. Yeah. They hammered you pretty hard on that.

STURGILL: And they kept at it.

BIRDWHISTELL: But you weren't in it. Your sons were in it.

STURGILL: Absolutely.

BIRDWHISTELL: Now, in this particular issue, L.D. Gorman's involved in this, 01:08:00too. [Chuckle]

STURGILL: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: And you all kind of got sideways on this one --

STURGILL: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: -- and --

STURGILL: Stayed sideways.

BIRDWHISTELL: Uh-huh. This was Kenmont Coal, right?

STURGILL: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: Kenmont Coal. And the way the newspaper plays it, you had talked to L.D. Gorman about this, and that the Kenmont Coal was profitable because of the connection to TVA [Tennessee Valley Authority]. Is that right?

STURGILL: L.D. approached me --

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm.

STURGILL: -- about Kenmont Coal. And he had a contract with KU [Kentucky Utilities] that he pledged to Kenmont Coal.

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh, KU. Did I say TVA?

STURGILL: You said TVA.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, it's KU. I'm sorry. I misspoke.

STURGILL: And we had some equipment. Paul and a fellow by the name of [Lonzo 01:09:00Greer?] that wanted to get in that deal.

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm.

STURGILL: So I signed a note and got in it. Not me personally, --

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm.

STURGILL: -- but the coal company.

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm. Hmm.

STURGILL: Now, that -- and I had no interest in the coal company. I wasn't a shareholder --

BIRDWHISTELL: Right. You just supported the note that that company that you had no -- okay. Said -- well, let's see, in the newspaper, here you go, "Sturgill's company."

STURGILL: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: "Sturgill's company, Straight Fork Coal Company, bought 52 percent of Kenmont in September, 1981, for about $500,000 from James Hall of Lexington. After agreeing to the deal, 'I went to the Kenmont property myself 01:10:00and found that there was a horrendous reclamation job,' Sturgill testified. He said in the deposition that he offered Hall $100,000 to back out of the deal. Hall refused, Sturgill said, because he wanted to avoid the reclamation expense. Straight Fork Coal invested about $370,000 in Kenmont, and business went well at first." Does that sound --

STURGILL: I never offered him anything to get out of it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. Why do they say these things in here?

STURGILL: And I don't think that's in the deposition.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. It goes on to say, quote -- this is quoting you, "`We made money the first several months, and then typical L.D., he started cheating,' [chuckle] Sturgill testified in his deposition. `And he started shortening on our wage, he started not taking our coal on a regular basis.'"

STURGILL: That's right.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. Those -- that's tough. That business is tough, isn't it?

STURGILL: Yeah. But I had gone to the property at the request of these guys to 01:11:00check the reclamation.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. And it was a --

STURGILL: It was a mess.

BIRDWHISTELL: -- it was a mess.

STURGILL: Anything L.D. had anything to do with is a mess. And that's evidenced by what happened to him in -- at the end of the day.

BIRDWHISTELL: At the end of the day.

STURGILL: Now I feel sorry for him.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. I can appreciate that. Of course, in L.D. Gorman's deposition, he didn't help you out any by his version of the -- of that story.

STURGILL: Yeah. Oh, I'm sure.

BIRDWHISTELL: He says you approached him and wanted to get back in the coal business. So --

STURGILL: I did not approach him.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. Well, that's why we do these interviews, see, because the historians are going to read this. And it's so -- you know, I hate to ask you questions that are --

STURGILL: Sure. I don't mind.

BIRDWHISTELL: -- hurtful in any way, but you know, I know you've been through this a lot. [Chuckle] So -- but I thought this sort of -- this story sort of represents how difficult it is for a person to go from the private sector into government. Because every time -- everywhere you turn there's risk, in terms of your reputation, in terms of your business interests -- you know, not -- it's not that you're just working for a dollar a year, your business interests are at risk often.

STURGILL: And that episode about Kenmont was embarrassing to me--

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: -- because of L.D.'s dominance in the picture. And knowing that I was in government, he could take advantage of me.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. It wasn't like a -- if you were just still in the private sector, you know, you ought to just take the gloves off and --

STURGILL: Why, sure.

BIRDWHISTELL: -- and go at it. But you're in a position where you're -- a 01:13:00little more difficult.

STURGILL: And I told John, I said, "Look, I'll quit. You don't need the embarrassment. I can take it. It hurts, but it'll go away."

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, you know, in --

STURGILL: When I bought this place in `82, they hung around trying to find something --

BIRDWHISTELL: Really?

STURGILL: -- about that. And I said -- what was the reporter's name from Owensboro that died?

BIRDWHISTELL: From Owensboro? I don't know.

STURGILL: I liked him. Well, I can't think of it. But I said, "Stand around here all you want to." We was in that little office over there. "You're 01:14:00welcome. I'm mining limestone."

BIRDWHISTELL: [Chuckle] That's funny. Well, you know, this situation reminds me of -- of course, Mr. Young's situation. You know, here's another -- you know, the two of you are two of the most successful business people in 20th century Kentucky. You're both working as dollar-a-year men in a gubernatorial administration. And they came after him, too.

STURGILL: Over the Humana deal.

BIRDWHISTELL: And --

STURGILL: Worried him to death.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, forced him out.

STURGILL: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: And, of course, now he regrets he got out. But at the time, you know, you just want to stop the -- stop it.

STURGILL: Stop the machinery. [Chuckle--Birdwhistell] I remember I was always 01:15:00griping about working for a dollar a year. Right at the end of our term John said, "I'll cure that." Said, "I'll get the finance department to figure out how much you owe [sic we owe you], and I'll pay you." [Chuckle--Birdwhistell] I said, "Yeah, that would really make a story." [Both chuckling]

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh, me. Oh, me.

STURGILL: No, I -- my entrance back in the coal business on a personal basis was in `86 --

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, when you --

STURGILL: -- when I bought back Golden Oak.

BIRDWHISTELL: Golden Oak, yeah. That's when you get back in.

STURGILL: That's when I personally got back into it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. Sometimes I don't think historians are going to know what 01:16:00to make of the John Y. Brown administration. You know, it was a little unconventional.

STURGILL: And I think John would be doing himself a favor if he'd sit down with you.

BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm.

STURGILL: And I'm going to tell him so --

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, I appreciate that. I think --

STURGILL: -- if you're interested in doing it.

BIRDWHISTELL: I've been interested in doing it, and I'm still interested because so much of what happened in that administration, you all did in a very -- in some unconventional ways. And I think it'd be good to -- you know, I've talked to Mr. Young, you know, I'm talking to you now about the activities that went in -- went on during that time, and I think it's good.

STURGILL: Yeah. I remember we went to a -- had an economic development meeting on the West Coast. And we had flown out there. I think Bill took the RC Cola plane. And we stayed at whatever the big hotel was. And the press got a hold 01:17:00of it, that all of us had a suite of rooms. And we did. [Both chuckling] And we did. Guilty as charged. [Both chuckling] And rather than John get up and say, "Well, that's right, we did," he said, "Where'd you want us to stay, at the Days Inn?" I said, "Oh, my God, we've got a thousand Days Inn in Kentucky."

BIRDWHISTELL: [Chuckle] Let's not slam the Days Inn. [Chuckle]

STURGILL: And John got all upset afterward, and I said, "Just -- you can't say that." He said, "Well, invite those people to the Derby." [Chuckle--Birdwhistell] I said, "You invite them to the Derby."

BIRDWHISTELL: I was once talking to Mr. Young, and I was quoting from the historian who edited John Y. Brown's public papers. And in the introduction she 01:18:00writes that Governor Brown had seemingly unlimited energy. And I quoted that to Mr. Young, and Mr. Young said, "Well, he ought to have unlimited energy. He didn't get up until noon." [Both chuckling]

STURGILL: Yes, or later.

BIRDWHISTELL: Or later. So in that way, it was unorthodox too, wasn't it, in terms of -- you mentioned the cabinet meetings. You know, you all had these early morning cabinet meetings, and no way Governor Brown's going to show up at --

STURGILL: Bill -- Bill --

BIRDWHISTELL: They had them at the mansion, didn't they?

STURGILL: Bill presided.

BIRDWHISTELL: Uh-huh.

STURGILL: And he had a habit of calling you anywhere from twelve to three in the morning. So I told him one day, I said, "John, I go to bed at about 10:30. That's my usual pattern. And I'm asleep -- I read awhile, and then I go to sleep."

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, and I'm down for the night.

STURGILL: "And if you call me again at two o'clock in the morning and ask me some stupid question -- now, if it's important, fine -- I'll get you back." [Chuckle--Birdwhistell]

So I called over there one -- he did it -- "I won't do it anymore." And it wasn't a week until he called me. So I waited about ten minutes and called back. And -- no, waited until the next night and called back.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: And he was at Cave Hill then. The trooper answered the phone, he said, "The governor's asleep." I said, "This is Mr. Sturgill." I said, "You ring him." Said, "I can't do that." I said, "You can do or I'll get your ass. It's your choice, not mine."

BIRDWHISTELL: Now, you put him between a rock and a hard place.

STURGILL: So he rang John. John, "Grrgh, grrgh." I said, "Good morning, 01:20:00Governor." [Chuckle--Birdwhistell] He never called me again.

BIRDWHISTELL: Oh, goodness. But he's just one of those guys that didn't get going until -- he was on a different schedule. I mean he just -- I guess he had been for years.

STURGILL: He's one of the most sincere, basic, honorable men I ever knew.

BIRDWHISTELL: Hmm.

STURGILL: He protects his integrity more than any man I ever knew.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. Well, he sure found out how hard public life is, though, didn't he?

STURGILL: Yeah. And he wants to get back in.

BIRDWHISTELL: [Chuckle] Well, it's hard to lose that itch, isn't it?

STURGILL: Once that itch gets you, you've got to scratch it.

BIRDWHISTELL: [Chuckle] Let's see. We're about out of time and -- for today. I want to pick up again on the Brown administration. There's many more things we need to talk about, and then we'll get you back on the -- we'll get you through the UK board and then back on the UK board. There's still --

STURGILL: Yeah, and then I'll get some information about the coal conversion processes -- it's not right at my fingertips -- --

BIRDWHISTELL: That'd be great.

STURGILL: -- that we were involved in.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. And we really haven't talked much about the state racing commission. There's some issues there we need to talk about.

STURGILL: Yeah, that's a very interesting story. We need to get into that. [Chuckle]

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. Well, I've got it down here. It's -- as I told you before we started today, this period of your life -- I mean, it's just -- things are just popping everywhere. And I -- when I'm studying it, I sometimes wonder how when you got up in the morning you knew what to do that day.

STURGILL: What hat to put on.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, yeah, because it's --

STURGILL: Well, one thing I always wanted to do was leave an imprint on the progress that I thought the university made.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah.

STURGILL: And Otis was a good friend of mine, but moreover, he was interested in seeing that you -- I wasn't chairman of that board for ten years because I had all the ability there was. There's other people with the same kind of ability. But I had a willingness to do it, and he wanted somebody who would 01:23:00inform the board and it wasn't coming from him.

BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. Well, I think that's the other thing, Mr. Sturgill; that you don't talk about it much, but if you just make a list of all the things at UK, that's an unbelievable list. You know, I ran across today the Sturgill professorship that was -- the money came from CSX, I guess. You know, I didn't -- you know, you've got that, you've got the Graduate School award, you've got the -- you know, it's just -- you chaired the Fellows campaign, you chaired the development council, you gave the money for the development building, you know, and I think just at some point we're just going to make a list of all those things because that'll -- I mean, that's impressive in and of itself.

STURGILL: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: And you should be very proud of all that. And that goes beyond just the day-to-day service, the chair -- chairing the board. You know, you're 01:24:00there for the equine -- for the Maxwell Gluck gift, you're there for -- you know, what I find as I go through these things, that every time -- you know, you chaired the merger committee. Every time I turn around and something big is happening, Bill Sturgill's at the table, [and] usually at the head of the table. So we'll -- with your patience, we'll work through those things --

STURGILL: Okay.

BIRDWHISTELL: -- and spend some time on them.

STURGILL: I'm sorry we can't go to --

[End of Interview]