Interview with Art Hansen, May 22, 2003

REES: -- second, 2002, and I'm here and going to do an interview with Art Hansen from Clark Atlanta University about the old farts in anthropology-- [interruption in taping] We're getting ready to start here. Hi, I'm Martha Rees, I'm a professor of anthropology at Agnes Scott College, and I'm here interviewing on May 22nd, 2003, Art Hansen who is an associate professor in the department of international affairs and development at Clark Atlanta. We're doing this for the Society for Applied Anthropology's Oral History Project. So we're going to ask Art some questions about anthropology and about his career. First I want to thank Emily Gwinn, Calvin Burgamy, and Mary Osterbine for helping us do the technology, which would certainly have us stymied, if we didn't have a little bit of help. Hi Art. [chuckle]

HANSEN: [chuckle] Hi Martha.

REES: You know-- have you gone over this list of topics? HANSEN: I looked at the 00:01:00list that, came out from the Society.

REES: Well, I can just sort of go down the list, and start with just what you-- how you see anthropology, and practicing anthropology, and then we can move on to some personal stuff, or we could start with the personal stuff.

HANSEN: Might as well start with the general--

REES: Okay.

HANSEN: Although, admittedly, I don't have that much to say, because I'm not really an historian in anthropology.

REES: Well they don't want this project to be about the history of the discipline, they want you to talk about practicing anthropology and how you got into it, what it means to you, what suggestions you have. So why don't you just start-- start where you think the beginning is.

HANSEN: Okay. My career? Talk about the beginning of practicing anthropology? Or--

REES: Well, one question is, how-- well, what are your influences-- what are the influences on the early development of applied and practicing anthropology, in your opinion, and how did practicing anthropology get started? You were probably there on the ground floor, at least in a--

HANSEN: Well, I mean actually I would go back to the 40's, there were 00:02:00anthropologists involved with the Bureau of Indian affairs.

REES: Mmhmm.

HANSEN: There were also people doing industrial, and anthropology floor-- shop floor work. And essentially what's happened is that anthropologists have abandoned those things. We used to do a lot of things with rural society in the U.S. We've essentially abandoned those to disciplines that have sprung up like rural sociology, which is doing all the U.S. rural sociology work that we used to do.

REES: Yep.

HANSEN: Agricultural economics, which is picking up, again, and those two fields, rural sociology and agricultural economics are American academic fields, they don't exist in any other country, unless we've exported them. And so they're really off-shoots of sociology.

REES: Mmhmm.

HANSEN: Which is the urban-industrial-western view with rural areas, and your off-shoot of economics, which is really dealing much more with macro, or industrial, whatever, to deal with agriculture, those are American offshoots of an arena that anthropologists originally were involved with.

REES: I thought rural sociology was what we called anthropologists in Africa when they didn't like the name anthropologists.

HANSEN: Rural sociology and agricultural economics are two fields in the U.S. that only exist in land grant schools.

REES: Yeah, okay.

HANSEN: Or only in agricultural schools, and they're only-- and they're American.

REES: I'm concerned just a tad about that noise going on in the background. Can you hear it?

OTHER VOICE: [inaudible]--

REES: Move the coffee--

HANSEN: The coffee bothers you? Or the [?]--

REES: On the other side, yeah.

OTHER VOICE: It's on the microphone.

REES: Move the coffee over here, how about that.

HANSEN: Ah, yes. I see.

REES: There's a microphone here.

HANSEN: That's right.

REES: I'm just-- they're building stuff. Okay. That is really-- that's really neat. And so--

HANSEN: Yeah, and the other thing is industrial and labor relations, ILR, which will exist in some business schools, like William Foote Whyte was a major person, ILR, he'd been-- Street Corner Society, which we could count as anthropology, sociology.

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: But that plus a lot of shop floor stuff, anthropologists left. So, if 00:04:00you look at some-- Elizabeth Eddy and Bill Partridge edited a book on applied anthropology in America, and some of their-- what they're looking at is some arenas that we have left, that we had been involved with earlier, before World War II in the U.S. And then of course, World War II, we got involved with Chrysanthemum and the Sword and all this business of the U. S. trying to understand peoples in the pacific that they have never-- didn't know anything about, so the military asked anthropologists. So that was all previous.

REES: So what happened to you? How did you get into this? How did you get started?

HANSEN: As an undergraduate, I only had one course, a senior level course in anthropology by some visiting lecturer who was passing through on a one-year contract and at Iowa State University, he taught one course and left. I mean, he taught one year. I took one course, that was it.

REES: Who was it? HANSEN: I haven't the slightest idea.

REES: You don't know--

HANSEN: To me, it was just a course. I took psych courses and history courses, 00:05:00and that was an anthropology course, and--

REES: I'm sure none of our students ever [inaudible]. [chuckle]

HANSEN: Well, it was just a course. It was interesting, but, I was thinking about this on the way over, how did I get involved in anthropology? I would use an example first. My first wife was also an anthropologist, and we were doing fieldwork in Zambia. She was interviewing indigenous practitioners, non-anthropologists call witch doctors.

REES: Yeah, right.

HANSEN: Indigenous practitioners, and she was asking this person how did he become an indigenous practitioner? How did he get involved in that career? And he said, "first I became sick."

REES: Mmhmm.

HANSEN: How'd you become a practitioner? Well, first you become sick.

REES: That's right.

HANSEN: Then you become part of the community of those who have that illness, after which you are then able to, if you pay someone to go on into becoming a practitioner of medicine to cure that. Well, I became an anthropologist because 00:06:00first I traveled in the Peace Corps. So, after graduating with no-- one course in anthropology, and no-- it had nothing to do with any decisions in my life, I went in the Peace Corps. That was JFK, ask not what your country can do for you, etcetera. Plus, helping other people. It's this idea that's helping other people that's always been real important, and so I joined the Peace Corps, went off to Latin America--

REES: Is that where you met Scott Robinson? No.

HANSEN: I met Scott later.

REES: Okay. He's going to come up again.

HANSEN: Yeah. Okay. I went to Bolivia for a couple of years, and in public health education and rural community development, learned a lot about those fields, and at that time, the Peace Corps gave volunteers what they called the foot locker, a library to take volunteers that-- volunteers to take with them. And there was a book by Edward T. Hall, The Silent Language.

REES: Great book.

HANSEN: Which, to the best of my knowledge, to show you how little that senior course I took, as an undergraduate had, that's the first anthropology book that I read that really meant something to me that I remembered. Because, here I was in Bolivia, as a volunteer, trying to affect social change, being totally naïve and innocent about cross-cultural communication, about the fact that everybody isn't necessarily meaning the same thing I mean when we're talking with each other, and as I was going through this process of community development, I was-- I started reading this book by Edward T. Hall, and things made a lot more sense. So, anyway, after finishing the Peace Corp in Bolivia, I became a rep in the Dominican Republic, for a couple of years I headed rural development programs, and I had questions about development. Why, when I could see things that could 00:08:00be done, why weren't people doing them? Why were these people not developed? Why didn't they have many of the same things I had? And the simplest answers were, of course, that they were stupid, dumb, or lazy.

REES: Mmhmm.

HANSEN: But, I was living with people, I was working with people, they were no more stupid, no dumber, and no lazier than anybody I'd grown up with in the mid-west. In fact, a lot of hard-working intelligent people. They may or may not have formal education, but they were smart, hard-working, motivated, had to be something else. What else? Well, I thought it could be the issue of-- I was naïve enough to think it was communication, it could be something about the cross-cultural communication. Of course, Edward T. Hall's told non-verbal, but also the-- you know, you're not saying the same things you are speaking, communicating. So I went into grad school in anthropology, really looking for 00:09:00answers why wasn't international development working the way I thought it should work. Why weren't people developing? So that's how I got into anthropology.

REES: And that's Cornell? HANSEN: That was Cornell. And, Cornell had been involved with Vicos project, and of course I'd just spent 4 years in Latin America, and so when I thought of grad schools, I went-- I went around to a couple of grad schools, a number of grad schools to see about anthropology, but Cornell seemed to make sense to me because of its applied anthropology background.

REES: Well what was your undergraduate major?

HANSEN: English. I had majored, really, in poetry. So, the single most important issue that I studied was poetry. And, unfortunately, when I got to Cornell, I got there just too late. Alan Holmberg had died, and as-- the Cornellians, in a 00:10:00sense, had given up on applied anthropology. I didn't know that.

REES: Why?

HANSEN: Just continual issue in the discipline, about is applied anthropology really anthropology? And, the theoretical anthropology, what I consider a more discipline bound approach, is, has always been stronger, and so they went away from applied anthropology. They thought that wasn't the way to go. They were telling us, when I got there, or had already gone there as a graduate student, applied anthropology is dead.

REES: The post-Vietnam era probably had something to do with that.

HANSEN: Well this is-- this was-- this was during-- this-- we were still at--

REES: Still at war?

HANSEN: We were still involved in the Vietnam controversy. We were still-- I went to Cornell in '68.

REES: But don't you think the war made us be more critical of anthropology? The 00:11:00Vietnam war? Like, that it's no good, that anthropologists might sell out, and you know--

HANSEN: Yeah, and there was-- they just had the controversy, the Peruvian controversy. They had-- while I was in-- at Cornell is when they had the Thai--

REES: That's right.

HANSEN: -- controversy.

REES: That's right. Del Jones, and--

HANSEN: Yeah, and one or more of the faculty at Cornell had been involved with the whole business about collecting commission, about people that was then utilized by--

REES: Right.

HANSEN: By the CIA or whatever to understand how to co-opt people. No, it was-- but the death of applied anthropology, seemed to me because these were hide bound academics.

REES: [chuckle] So, I guess you don't agree that applied anthropology is not relevant.

HANSEN: I think this was absurd. I mean, but at that time, in the late 60's, and 00:12:00into the 70's, in the academy, which was the heartland for anthropologists, because anthropologists generally only reproduce themselves in academics, applied anthropology was certainly not mainstream, and it certainly went along with the fact that they had abandoned all these other avenues that we'd talked about. And so when I would give presentations at conferences, about things that interested me, one of the common response was, "but is this anthropology? This is very interesting, what you said, but is this anthropology?" That was during the late 60's, early 70's a constant refrain at anthropology conferences.

REES: Mmhmm.

HANSEN: The fact that anything that was applied, that was change oriented, development oriented, social change oriented, was interesting but not really anthropology.

REES: Right.

HANSEN: And so it's-- I mean, it's during the 70's, late 70's, I think, that 00:13:00then there became a shift in the discipline, and I'm not sure the reasons for it, I think it may very well have been driven by the fact that we were graduating a lot of Ph.D.'s without jobs in the academy--

REES: Yeah. Yeah.

HANSEN: And so they were getting jobs outside of the academy, and graduate students were seeing that, and were wanting to see, "well what can I do that's actually relevant to being something other than a university professor?" And, there was this whole-- I mean, there's a world out there, where all of these issues that anthropologists could speak to, that we can do something innovative and interesting with, because we have this perspective that other people don't have, and I think it was driven by students.

REES: I agree. I think that we can be grateful for our students for ourselves and for our students even today, for doing wonderful things like that. Pushing 00:14:00us forward.

HANSEN: Yeah, keeping us in contact with something outside of the--

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: The academe.

REES: Yeah. Reality check, or whatever.

HANSEN: Plus, I mean, I'd gone into anthropology because my interest in development, and having these questions about development, but I must admit, I spent probably the first 10 or 12 years in anthropology with almost a split personality, because nothing in the university, in anthropology, spoke to my feelings.

REES: Yeah. What do you mean by that? HANSEN: When I was taking courses?

REES: Yeah. Courses weren't relevant, you mean?

HANSEN: The courses were-- it's as if you are a Latin speaker and they're teaching you Lithuanian. They're both languages, they obviously have something in common, but they're just totally different tracks. Here, I'd be taking 00:15:00courses on kinship, social organizations, information which I could see was relevant, but it was not presented in a framework of trying to make it relevant. It was taught in a-- it was so discipline centered, I mean anthropologists were so oriented toward the discipline themselves, the tradition of anthropology, the questions they were trying to answer were questions that were raised in the discipline, very theoretical, very methodological questions, they weren't speaking the issues of the world, and so although there was a lot of inspiration that could be used in the world, that was very relevant, they weren't speaking to that. And, it made it hard for a student, you couldn't talk about it in class. Just-- you're speaking, you know, Latin, and they're teaching Lithuanian.

REES: Didn't people sort of stop doing fieldwork outside the United States 00:16:00sometime in there?

HANSEN: There was a time of [?] funding.

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: There wasn't as much funding for field work. The most expensive-- students could, generally, while they're in classes, they could get spare-time jobs, they could-- there was some money for tuition, whatever, I mean they could survive, but to do field work, that's expensive. And that is sort of a full-time-- if you're going to leave and go to Africa, or you're going to go to Asia, or you're going to go to some other places, you're not going to be able to work while you're doing field work, well, if you don't have funds, you can't do that.

REES: Mmhmm.

HANSEN: So, for a lot of people, they did field work in the U. S., because that's the only thing they could afford. It used to be, for anthropologists, if you did field work in the U. S., that was not anthropology.

REES: That's right.

HANSEN: Unless American Indians--

REES: American Indians are okay.

HANSEN: -- were seen as different enough, so you could deal with American Indians.

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: But you couldn't do it on minorities in the U. S.

REES: Right, that would be sociology.

HANSEN: And, heaven forbid, couldn't do it on majority culture, that was sociology.

REES: White guys. Yeah.

HANSEN: Wasn't field work.

REES: So what-- what tricks do you have in your bag that makes you a practicing anthropologist that you take from that fabulous anthropological perspective that you add to your practice of anthropology. I mean, that's what you're saying, you have this great perspective that's just-- most people don't apply.

HANSEN: Right. The main-- I mean, the fundamental contributions that anthropologists have to offer in development and social change is our understanding that there's more than one perspective. It's the anti-ethnocentrism. First, the understanding of ethnocentrism. Second, the willingness to apply that insight to ourselves.

REES: Mmhmm. That's good. That's good.

HANSEN: Many people, "oh yeah, sure. Ethnocentrism, oh yeah, I can see you're ethnocentric, not me."

REES: Yeah. Yeah. And we all are.

HANSEN: Right. So the willingness to apply it to yourself.

REES: That's good.

HANSEN: The willingness to, when you're in a situation, to ask yourself what is the perspective of the other people in this environment? What do they think is happening? What is the reality that they're experiencing at the moment? And, to not just assume that the reality of the planters, the reality of the outside observers, the western experts is the only reality that counts. That's the overwhelming contribution that anthropologists made. And then the willingness to-- all of our techniques are ways to having accepted that, then how do you find out about that perspective? How do you find out about that reality? And, so whether it's participant observation, or interviewing semi-structured, unstructured, pile-sorts. whatever observation, all of those things we know are just ways to get at something we know exists, which is another reality, another perspective.

REES: That we can't even see.

HANSEN: Right. Without, you know, preconceptions.

REES: Mmhmm.

HANSEN: So that's-- I'd say that's the main thing.

REES: That's good, I like that.

HANSEN: One of the concerns I have with applied anthropology, and several texts on applied anthropology, is that I see some of these texts saying unless you are using specifically anthropological theories, using specifically anthropological techniques, addressing anthropological concerns, you're not an anthropologist. These are even in applied anthropology.

REES: You're not going to name any names, I guess, huh?

HANSEN: I'm not going to name any names. Any revered names who write revered textbooks, no. But, I think that's totally absurd.

REES: Yeah. Yes.

HANSEN: Totally wrong-headed. I am an anthropologist.

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: How can I define anthropology? I don't know, but I know I am one. And, yet when I go out to do work, whether it's in-- with child soldiers in the Congo, or with demobilized soldiers in Angola, or rural development, or 00:20:00whatever, we're not worried about theories in anthropology, I'm interested in understanding what's out there, understanding what those people are doing, and so I use a lot of anthropology, but I'm not trying to come up with answers for the discipline, I'm interested in coming up with answers for the world.

REES: But the problem that you see--

HANSEN: It's a problem.

REES: Mmhmm. So what you're saying is that disciplinary focus is still really there, it sort of like keeps a-- a boundary between--

HANSEN: Oh yeah.

REES: Yeah. I agree. That's a good way of saying it.

HANSEN: It's still very, very clear in graduate school.

REES: Yeah. And departments, it's very clear.

HANSEN: Yeah, I mean, it's-- I've mainly taught-- in anthropology I mainly taught the graduate level. I haven't taught-- I taught undergraduate courses but not that much. It's been more graduate, and it's still very clear. Students keep us honest, because they look at their careers, and they see jobs, and many of 00:21:00them come in to anthropology because they want to work in development, they want to work in social change. But the academy still has this conservative orientation. If you don't have a Ph.D., you're a failure, you know, matters in anthropology, no.

REES: Eh.

HANSEN: No, no, no. It's got to be a Ph.D.

REES: Doesn't count, yeah.

HANSEN: And the highest status in life is to be a university professor, like me your instructor. That's so self-serving, so, dare we say, ethnocentric.

REES: And, if they can't get jobs, all of them, anyway, that-- you know, like leading them--

HANSEN: It's making them perpetually dissatisfied, because you've set up, as far as I'm concerned, the wrong goals, it's a misunderstanding of anthropology to believe you have to be a University professor to be an anthropologist. And, the thrust of practicing anthropology is great because of that.

REES: Okay.

HANSEN: You know, for a long time, we've said that there were. -- we talked about being an applied anthropologist, which meant that rather than-- rather 00:22:00than being-- we had to have the adjective, because if you didn't say applied, if you just said anthropologist, implicit with that was that you did research, wrote books and articles and taught courses, and you were discipline-oriented, you were worried about the theories and methodologies in the discipline. So, we had to have an objective, call it applied anthropologist, which included people like me who were interested in questions about the world. Issues that the world threw up, not that discipline threw up. But still many of us were based in the University, and I've always been based, I mean, I may go off a couple years on a contract, but then I come back to teach at a University, and practicing anthropologists didn't that university base. And, they were the ones who thought up, very clearly, the fact that just saying applied anthropology is not enough, because you're still excluding those of us who are not university based. We do 00:23:00not have to write an article or a book, anything we write will probably be reports, it's a very different life, and until we explicitly make room for ourselves at the table, you're not talking to us, and we're not involved.

REES: Mmhmm.

HANSEN: So I think that's been a great advance.

REES: And a shift, I think, you're right.

HANSEN: Yeah, and it's a recognition of the implicit orientation toward the theoretical and the discipline.

REES: Mmhmm. Mmhmm.

HANSEN: Yeah. So that's been very good.

REES: And, so tell me any funny stories or stories about maybe your first field work, or maybe the first time you-- like, maybe some more about what was happening to you in the Dominican Republic.

HANSEN: Right. Good thinking. Let me first just say what I-- one thing in general. I mean, I had-- I had spent four years in Latin America before I went to graduate school in Anthropology. And, I thought I was relatively aware of Latin America. I mean, I learned to speak Spanish there. I understood a lot 00:24:00about it. Then I went to Anthropology graduate school for a couple of years, and then I went off to Zambia and went to Africa-- I was always intending to do my dissertation research in Bolivia. But, married a woman, anthropology graduate student, got married, she was going to go to Africa, while I'd been off in the Peace Corps, she'd been at grad school, so she was ready to do her dissertation before me, and my committee said you have a chance to go to another part of the world, excellent-- excellent training. Okay. So, I went to-- I went to Zambia, and was there a very short time before I realized that as an anthropologist, even as an anthropology graduate student I learned so much more, so much more quickly than I had as a development worker. Even as a development worker who had been interested in the culture and interested in learning about Bolivia, 00:25:00interested in learning about the Dominican Republic, learning was so much faster, quicker, deeper as an anthropologist.

REES: Why? Why? Because you had a little-- these anthropology tricks in your back/front pocket? Or you picked up some concepts? HANSEN: I suppose underlying it was the major principle of anthropology, which is that there is another reality out there, but the main trick, is as a development worker, your mouth is open, you have a message to communicate. As an anthropologist, your ears are open, your eyes are open. So I went to Zambia, and when I introduced myself to people I said, "I am a student, I have come for you to teach me about how you live."

REES: Mmhmm. That's wonderful.

HANSEN: And then mouth closed, ears open, eyes open, and I went to learn. But, 00:26:00as a development worker, your message always gets in the way of your learning, because you were always trying to teach, and so you're not as aware of the messages that they're trying to communicate to you. You're not trying to understand their reality; you're trying to impose yours.

REES: Mmhmm. Mmhmm.

HANSEN: Just a tremendous difference.

REES: It's a big difference.

HANSEN: Oh.

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: And it was fascinating to me because I had had four years of field experience that I could put it up against. Where so many anthropology grad students, or anthropology undergrad students, when they do field work knowing about anthropology, they can't compare that with what they would have learned if they had no orientation.

REES: Right. Right.

HANSEN: But, it wasn't anything to do with techniques.

REES: Okay.

HANSEN: Yeah. Because at that time, in the 60's, no one taught methods.

REES: No. No. Absolutely not.

HANSEN: I mean, demand in some graduate programs were nothing, Cornell didn't teach zero on methods.

REES: Uh-huh. We didn't have methods.

HANSEN: No, no, no. You had theories, you had data, you know, more ethnographies, how many ethnographies have you read about all these people, but we didn't have anything about methods. That was-- you know, pick it up on your own.

REES: My first field experience was a shock in that. I didn't even know how to write a diary, which I'm sure every one of my students here has done. Isn't that wild. So, that it something else that's changed.

HANSEN: Oh yeah. I mean, we teach often, because of the errors we made. We emphasize this, "don't you do what I did, I know what a mistake that was." I'm always concerned with my grad students that they really design their research before they go. They know what it is they're going to study, they do the lit background, they think about how they're going to collect data, they think about how they're going to analyze data. Still, there is another issue. Because I 00:28:00didn't do that. When I went to Zambia, I didn't go with any planning like that. I went to just accompany my wife while she did her field work, I was going to come back and go to Bolivia to do mine. I still wanted to do my dissertation in Bolivia, but-- so I went to Zambia to just observe Zambia, no design at all. I was reading about Bolivia up until the month before I left for Zambia, but go there, mouth closed, eyes open, ears open, fascinating. Fascinating. People having a very different perception of the universe. You know, people not believing the germ theory, just as an example. People believing in spirit possession, for example, sorcery, I mean, it's real fascinating, absolutely and totally fascinating. And, I've got-- I've discovered, if there were refugees there by accident, they weren't supposed to be there, but I discovered that they 00:29:00were there, and that's how I ended up getting involved in some of the major orientation I got in research. Studying refugees.

REES: And you've been doing that-- was that your dissertation then? You just did that there?

HANSEN: That ended up being my dissertation.

REES: Did you go back to Zambia?

HANSEN: Oh yeah, I've gone back.

REES: I meant for your dissertation? Or was that your--

HANSEN: No, I ended up-- we ended up-- I was-- we were there for a year, originally gone for a year. The thing is that all the refugees who were living in the villages, where we were living in the village, all the people living there were there illegally. The government policy was that refugees had to report to the government and they would be taken to a settlement scheme where they would be given land, they'd be given food, they would be taken care of under government control, and so all the refugees still living in villages were people who were purposefully keeping their heads down, not letting anybody know about it because they were there illegally. So no one would admit to me that he 00:30:00or she was a refugee. I mean, they had three categories of European, and I was a [Chindade] European. You could be a missionary, well I wasn't preaching so I wasn't a missionary. You could be a trader, well I wasn't buying or selling, just things for the household, so I wasn't trading. Or, you could be a government employee, well that was the only third possibility, and I wasn't telling them that, so I must be a spy. That's another way they think of a government employee, he doesn't tell you what he's doing. Some people were-- I mean, I was on a border area, the war in Angola was going on, it was hot and heavy, you could originally hear gunfire, we were living like 6 or 7 miles from the border, hear gunfire in the beginning at night from the other side of the border. There were-- it was not officially there, but there were UNITA, which was an opposition movement that was actually based, they had camps right there in that rural area where we were. Well, a lot of things were going on, and there 00:31:00was a lot of concern about intelligence, and you know, western intelligence, whatever. It wasn't until I was ready to leave, at the end of the first year, and this, as you know, from field work, when you're leaving people tell you things. They think it's safe, you're leaving, you're going to take this with you.

REES: Amazing, the most amazing thing.

HANSEN: Yeah. Oh, the last-- last month, all that information comes out.

REES: The last day I've had stuff, yes.

HANSEN: Yeah. So the last-- the last month, somebody finally told me that yes, he had come from Angola during the war, he was a refugee, and so I stayed another year, and I did snowball sampling, because okay, you said you came from-- who came with you? And then I went through that, and I said, "okay, I know you came, who came with you? Okay, who came with you?" Because I had been doing a study of the rural economy in that settlement. The only thing-- and I was very interested in how people whose lives had been upset, and lost so much, 00:32:00who have been displaced, how they were going to restart life again, but I couldn't tell who was a refugee and who wasn't. So you couldn't prepare them.

REES: But one guy told you.

HANSEN: One guy told me. So I stayed another year, did snowball sampling until I was able to separate out, you know, there's still some I don't knows, but I could separate out a lot of refugees, non-refugees, so I could actually prepare and actually study the process of the refugees in terms of making a living in a new environment.

REES: Now, your committee didn't go bananas when you did that? When you came back with all this data?

HANSEN: That's the other thread I wanted to pick up.

REES: Okay. Good.

HANSEN: Because, although I tell my students to design their research before they go, to foresee things, do the lit review, work out the statement of problem, whatever, then they go, and when the student comes back, the first thing I ask him or her is, "so what did you do while you were gone?" And I tell 00:33:00faculty this in other disciplines and they're just dumbfounded. Because in so many disciplines, chemistry, astronomy, physics, whatever, your students are working side by side with you in the lab, from day one, when they start in graduate school, they're taking classes and doing research that you give them by the lab, and when they finish their coursework, they've often finished their research, they get their degree and they go away. Or, in other disciplines, you set out something for them to do, and if they're going to do any fieldwork outside of the campus, well, it's pretty close. Whereas in anthropology, there's always serendipity operated. I had not gone to Zambia to study refugees. When I send students off to do their research, I don't know what they're going to come back with. So, I've told them, here is something that if in fact you collect the data, you have the dissertation. Now, if you go off and find something that just totally excites you, my recommendation is that you also fill in the holes for 00:34:00this, and then do whatever excites you, and come back, because the problem is going to be, if you just study what excites you, when you come back, since you hadn't thought about it, and designed it before you went, you may have all these holes, it doesn't make a dissertation and you're stuck.

REES: And they do that? Go with the flow.

HANSEN: Yeah. I had people come back with things that really excited them, but so often, because it's so well designed, you can fill this out, and in addition, you'll have extra time to study what really excites you.

REES: Go with the flow. Mmhmm.

HANSEN: But don't-- don't dump this. Many times you come back--

REES: And so do they do that? HANSEN: Yeah. I've had people come back with things that really excited them, but so often, the things that excite us are things that we didn't know anything about because they haven't been studied before, so there's no literature, and--

REES: And you're out there in the boondocks.

HANSEN: I mean, I did my dissertation on refugees, to the best of my knowledge 00:35:00nobody had done an anthropology dissertation on refugees before. If they had, I certainly didn't know about it. I hadn't had any idea of what concepts to, how to conceptually define these things, no literature to work against, I just collected all the data I could find on something interesting and then came back and had a devil of a time trying to make a dissertation out of this. Because, where were the anthropological questions? There were no disciplinary questions I was asking about refugees? I was just asking how do people earn a living when they've been displaced? Nobody had studied displacement.

REES: Well, just-- and that's to me, central in anthropology quest, even today, I mean. HANSEN: But, at that time, law and order.

REES: Mmhmm.

HANSEN: Durkheim, structure and function, the major thrust still is, in social science, was structural, functional analysis. We hadn't shifted towards the emphasis on conflict yet.

REES: Mmhmm. Mmhmm.

HANSEN: I mean, we still-- the Robert Redford-- Redfield, Oscar Lewis, you know, 00:36:00doing the same community-- the conflict versus consensus, that had not yet permeated anthropology and the rest of the social science, to where were studying conflict rather than-- or change, rather than continuity.

REES: So when did that happen? When did that shift take place?

HANSEN: Seems to me it happened more in the 70's-- 70's and then later mid-80's, and with-- because, before that, as anthropologists, you studied cultural continuity, you studied how people continued culture, how they were carriers of culture. We didn't study how culture changed. We didn't emphasize that.

REES: Yeah, I think the Vietnam war had something to do with that shift also.

HANSEN: Something.

REES: I mean we were critical of everything we were hearing, and--

HANSEN: Yeah. But even before that. I mean, look at-- look at African anthropology, because after-- in the post-colonial era, and in the urbanization, 00:37:00the rural urban migration era, look at anthropologist's trying to-- I mean, that studied tribal societies. What happened when somebody from a "tribe" went to town? How did he handle the fact that in town, that person was interacting with people from other tribes, lineage systems weren't operative, they were meeting and hanging out with and getting married with other kinds of people. The old models weren't working.

REES: They weren't working.

HANSEN: And, so after-- that's--

REES: So, post World War II, just-- just displacement of people.

HANSEN: Yeah. Yeah. And we find it in the--

REES: But I still think we were inclined to say that that was a breakdown, so that was an example of, you know, dysfunctional change, whereas when you get a little bit more into conflict theory, then you're saying, well actually that change is good, because it's progressive, or that's why--

HANSEN: I mean; I don't think anthropology was in the forefront here. I just think there was a whole shift in western social science.

REES: You're right, yeah.

HANSEN: And, along with that, look at Marxism. For so long Marxism, heaven forbid, you know, all these--

REES: Taboo, yeah.

HANSEN: -- communist kinds of things, but when you started emphasizing conflicts, well that is another way to conceptualize conflict, and underlying fundamental conflict. With that shift toward an understanding of conflict, there is-- has been a shift toward being willing to study societies in change, in crisis, and so that's what I ended up studying.

REES: So, after you finished your dissertation on refugees, then you continued that?

HANSEN: By that time I was in Florida, teaching at Florida, I met another anthropologist, Tony Oliver-Smith, and Tony and I were colleagues, and we were-- 00:39:00we'd meet in the hallway and talk about this or that, and it turned out he had originally been going to Peru to do a study of rural market systems, in highland Peru. He had gotten delayed, for one reason or another, he was up at that time, in Boston working as a social worker, and got delayed going down, and in the delay, the town he was going to study, that market system, had been buried by an avalanche and so the question was was he going to shift his topic, go to some other place, he decided to go to that town and to study what happened.

REES: That's great. That's how you get started. Yeah.

HANSEN: Yeah, that's how he got study-- studying natural disasters.

REES: Yeah. Yeah. Disaster anthropology.

HANSEN: But, you know, how did you become a-- an indigenous healer, first I became sick. How did you get interested in a disaster? A disaster happened to the people I was going to study. How did you become interested in refugees? I 00:40:00was studying people and there turned out to be refugees there. And so we-- we're excited in the people we're studying. So, he had been studying how people responded to this disaster, and to rebuild, and how they were responding to government policies about moving them out, etcetera. I was dealing with refugees in Africa. On the surface, nothing in common, first of all, different culture areas, you know how high bound we anthropologists are about, "are you a Latin Americanist--" are you a-- you know, "I'm a Chinese specialist." Well I'm an Africanist, he's a Latin Americanist, and Andeanist, that's one thing. He's dealing with people in a town, living in a town, buried by an avalanche, I'm dealing with, essentially rural people who are fleeing a war, but as we talked, there seemed to be commonalities about these people who were displaced, and we 00:41:00thought hmm, this is intriguing, so we called before a symposium at the AAA, and we asked around to see if anybody else had been studying displaced people, and so then we had a symposium, we got with the Elizabeth Colson and Ted Scudder and some others to come in to discuss this, and we had a symposium at a AAA on displaced people.

REES: When was that?

HANSEN: I think it was '81, the book came out in '82, and it was about problems and responses of, you know, they call it involuntary resettlement of-- involuntary migration, people who were forced to move.

REES: I'm thinking that my tape is going to end every second now. No, I've got-- I've got a little bit more.

HANSEN: Okay.

REES: Okay, but when it goes click, I'm going to have to--

HANSEN: Right, sure. And--

REES: So that's--

HANSEN: We didn't-- anthropologists always wander into territory that's just not marked, I mean, anthropology is sort of a discipline, as far as I'm concerned, that's just full of unmarked territories, so we had questions, we were interested in pursuing those questions, these were issues that had come up in the world, I mean, this avalanche in the Andes wasn't a theoretical avalanche, it was actually people suffering from this that he was dealing with them trying to recover, and the resistance, and I was-- it wasn't a theoretical war, these were actual honest-to-goodness refugees who were trying to, you know, earn a living, and so we were asking questions that were rising from life. So we were both, in that sense, applied anthropologists. Some anthropological theories, 00:43:00sociological theories, psychological theories, we didn't particular care-- interested in where these theories came from, but we were just trying to make sense of it.

REES: Mmhmm.

HANSEN: And, we were not just dealing with refugees, it was a natural disaster. We then realized, well, I had four years in development before that, he had a background with-- in social action as well, there's also victims of development projects, and so we had some people with-- who would work with victims of development, and we didn't know it, at that time, but later people go back to that book and say that's the first book in a field now called forced migration, or displacement, because we had first thought it was interesting-- interesting to study, we were interested in people being dynamic, that the agency of people 00:44:00were interested in showing that, and that we were pulling in what had previously been considered to be discreet fields, natural disasters of war and refugees and development. You know, you just pursue things you think are interesting, and some of them-- other people think they're interesting.

REES: But, one of the reasons you think it's interesting is because it's something that's really happening in the world. I mean, obviously it's what's really happening on the ground.

HANSEN: Oh yeah. I mean now, child soldiers, I'm really interested in the issues of child soldiers in Africa, and the reintegration of child soldiers.

REES: In Congo and--

HANSEN: Well, it's so common, I mean there's so many children being used as soldiers or combatants in so many countries around the world, but I'm primarily interested in Africa, and in Africa, Uganda, Sierra Leone, Nigeria, Angola, D. R. Congo, I mean there's a lot of countries where-- in Africa where children are 00:45:00being used as soldiers. And it's-- to me there's-- there are-- aside from moral-- I'm a-- I'm a parent, now, so aside from getting at me personally because it's seeing children in this way, it's also-- the theoretical issues are just astounding, why hasn't anybody ever studied it? REES: Like--

HANSEN: Well, socialization. You know, if we're talking about-- we're not talking about a stable society, we're not talking about continuity through time, we're talking about what happens to children who are supposedly the next generation--

REES: Yes.

HANSEN: Supposed to be socialized to become the carriers of culture, what happens if they go through militaristic socialization? So what is the difference between being socialized in the military and being socialized in civil society, what are the outcomes for society that you have then? In terms of domestic relationships, gender relationship, military societies are essentially 00:46:00predominantly male. Now, women are involved in definitely a dependent arena. Now, there is some gender equality in a very few arenas, I mean Eritrea, honest to God, women and men were involved as soldiers, I mean real soldiers, there was no separation, but even Mozambique and other places, commonly, when women are involved, it's because they're either doing the domestic work to support--

REES: Right.

HANSEN: They're not women with guns, so much, as men with guns and women who are either supporting them or spying. Doing these kinds of, you know ancillary activities. Soldiers need water to drink, they need food to eat, they need their clothes washed, you know, this kind of stuff. Often-- often children, and often women, are involved in these kinds of subsidiary activities to the military. It 00:47:00doesn't mean the military is primarily male based, and it does mean that the opposition of the sexes, which we have in all societies, is tempered in all civil societies by the interaction, the interdependence of male and females, we have a division of labor in which men do certain things, women do other things. Men depend on women; women depend on men. You can't just go it alone.

[End of tape 1, side 1]

[Beginning of tape 1, side 2]

REES: May, 2003 and this is side 2. So you were saying--

HANSEN: In civil society, usually there is this interdependence, and so the opposition of the sexes, the tension-- the sexual tension and gender tension, which you have in all societies, is tempered by a need for interdependence, but when-- in military society, it is very male dominated with women in a very secondary role. Well, what happens to boys when they get that kind of a 00:48:00socialization? When you're in a situation in which women are to be raped, women are to-- are to be abducted and taken away to serve as slaves, as opposed to-- as opposed to needing to have marriage in the military-- particularly in your more informal military groups, but even when you have formal groups in which rape becomes institutionalized.

REES: Mmhmm.

HANSEN: The idea that we've had in a number of these civil wars, about rape as a weapon of war, to humiliate and demoralize an o--- another group. Well, the children who are still being socialized, who are still learning the norms and the values of your society, what happens to those boys? What kinds of fathers and husbands are they going to be? Are they going to be fathers? Are they going to be husbands? I think there's a tremendous issue to examine, in terms of 00:49:00society about having children as soldiers.

REES: So, what happens to them? What do you think?

HANSEN: Right now?

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: Nothing. They're ignored. Right now, we-- it's just one of these things that you sweep under the-- there are lots of very important issues that we don't examine, that we just sweep under the floor. Right now, commonly you demobilize soldiers at the end of a war. Soldiers are still important, because they're guys with guns, you try to get rid of the guns, you try to give them something to do other than shoot people, for a living, but commonly, once the war is over, everybody loses interest. Once you take the guns away from the guys, then you're back to--

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: -- doing whatever you normally do. The same with children. Just because they happen to be boys with guns, rather than men with guns, you just ignore them.

REES: So, what can an anthropologist do? HANSEN: Well, theoretically, we can 00:50:00examine questions that aren't being examined. Because nobody, I mean, in looking at the literatures, nobody is examining the questions about the social impact. They're examining in a practitioners' level, NGO's, you know, asking, "what is the future of our society with all these children?" But it's charities, you know, in which assumptions are being made, but nobody's doing research about what's going on. And, in the academy, which is a major place where issues can be pushed, I mean agendas, political agendas can be-- can get more visibility, can get more power, and no one's-- no one's bringing it up in the agenda. In terms of actually-- policies, actually doing some research on it, asking fundamental questions, could very well illuminate practical policies, programs. I mean, 00:51:00here's the applied anthropologist, which you get involve with actual programs, but you're asking questions about very basic assumptions. That's what could be done. Right now I'm at the beginning of this, so it's-- there's no payoff.

REES: We have the lost boys here in Atlanta, don't we? A bunch of them.

HANSEN: Oh yeah, that's a total anomaly, because you know, they're men, I mean they're mainly in their-- mainly in their twenties. I mean, they-- because these are lost-- they were boys, but they've been in refugee camps in-- now in Kenya, but they-- you know, they were in Ethiopia, and then they fled from Sudan to Ethiopia, they fled back to Sudan, they fled to Kenya. That's part of the-- that story, of course, is the trekking across Africa to find a point of safety as kids, and a lot of deaths, losing a lot, but then they've been in the Kakuma camp in Northern Kenya now for 10 years or so with very poor education, and so 00:52:00they're coming in as 20 year olds, 25 year olds, 18 year olds who are-- who've been socialized in camp, and I mean, there are so many other people who have been socialized in camps, I mean, look at your refugee camps, which, that society is ignored, what kind of society could they reproduce? Here, it was the fact that they were children, they actually-- there were no families with them, so they were boys, you know, teaching boys.

REES: Yeah. Like Lord of the Rings a little bit, or whatever.

HANSEN: Yeah. Yeah.

REES: But it also reminds me of prisons, you know.

HANSEN: Oh yeah. And it's so-- in the sense of limited options, and in the sense of not really-- not being in a society where you could-- a functioning complete 00:53:00society, in which you would learn the roles that you would need to fulfill-- to reproduce that.

REES: Right. So they're going to reproduce something, that's the question, what is it they're going to reproduce? Certainly not the culture they came from, because it's gone, probably.

HANSEN: And when they come here, they don't come with their fathers and mothers, and you know, their-- essentially these boys come, and they have, like most people coming, a real interest in education, but they had such terrible beginnings. I mean, it's a real struggle for them, any of them, to get GEDs, and if you can't get that equivalent to a high school degree, you know, how can you belong?

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: But it means they've got very truncated, elementary school education. But these are examples, and these were not soldiers, but these were clearly very war affected children, and affected for a long time. The reason to focus on child soldiers, I mean war affected children is a huge category, and when you have some of these societies, essentially all children are war affected, but the 00:54:00idea is child soldiers we know are clearly, directly involved in war. We assume more than anybody they've had experiences of actually-- either killing people, or being involved in that. We know that a number of them were recruited, clearly, in ways to isolate them from their own home. Having them commit atrocities in their own home village, you know, kill a member of their family, burn people's homes in their own village so they couldn't go home again, so that they would be more wedded to their troop.

REES: I didn't know that. Yeah.

HANSEN: Oh yeah. There are major issues to study. It hasn't yet become of academic interest. Well, refugees weren't of academic interest.

REES: Yeah, but there's so many now, and we have, you know, Bosnia, Middle East, you have Iraq, you have Afghanistan--

HANSEN: Anthropology is a discipline that's changing, and part of-- we're looking at what's changed during my time as an anthropologist, it's changed to a focus-- to an inclusion of people in crisis, as opposed to only studying social continuity. But it's still a minority.

REES: Mmhmm.

HANSEN: Still a focus on the continuity.

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: But at least we're willing to deal with people in crisis. Whether or not it's displacement, whether or not it's war, whatever, we're willing to deal with those kinds of major shifts. And, there were still populations we haven't dealt with, like child soldiers, but analogous to that, it is related. There's the famine, food security issue. Because, in 1985, when we had the famine in Africa, the AAA was going to have a response, and so Sol [Solomon] Katz of Pennsylvania, 00:56:00several other people at Pennsylvania and elsewhere, put together this task force of an African famine. And, the idea was, we were very concerned about the fact that the U.S-- we felt the U. S. response, and the western response, would be counterproductive. That, so much of what we do, we westerners do in the third world, is not based on an understanding of their own culture--

REES: Exactly.

HANSEN: It's just, we've sort of-- based on our own assumptions, we're going to go steamroller in with our aid programs, which we felt might be counterproductive.

REES: Right.

HANSEN: And so the idea with the task force was to say, "let's-- at this national level, let us organize the insights that we have about dealing with societies, and this kind of famine, very food insecure situations, so we can offer advice to these, you know, aid development relief programs." Well, much to 00:57:00our chagrin, wasn't it?

REES: Yes. Yes.

HANSEN: We went to the body of knowledge, and the shelves were empty. And we asked ourselves, "why is it that so many of us have been in situations where there has been famine, there has been food shortages, we've been living with people like that, but we haven't written about it?"

REES: That's like the history of the human race has been--

HANSEN: Well, it wasn't-- it wasn't considered to be an appropriate topic for anthropologists. We went back and found Raymond Firth, when Raymond Firth went back to Tikopia, social change at Tikopia, he goes back and finds out that the year before he went back, there had been a famine, and their-- one of the responses to famine is that people get in boats and they go off in the ocean, either to drown, or to find someplace where there's food, well he gives a chapter in his book, on social change at Tikopia, on famine in Tikopia.

REES: That's it. That was it.

HANSEN: That was it. That was the body of knowledge that we had. And he wasn't doing anything-- lessons learned, just a chapter.

REES: Right. Right.

HANSEN: And, so we-- we-- in terms of this task force, even, said--

REES: [inaudible]

HANSEN: Okay. What we needed to do was to mobilize people to write what they knew. We need to encourage people to put our lessons on paper, to try to think of lessons learned, so in fact we offer some advice. Well, so here are the-- here is famine and food security in Africa, earlier here was this business of refugees, victims of natural disasters, now child soldiers, many of these arenas in which, although as anthropologists doing field work, we had been there--

REES: Mmhmm.

HANSEN: -- it hadn't been considered to be appropriate for us to write a thesis 00:59:00on, or a dissertation on it, an article on it, it wouldn't get published if you wrote it, your committees, as a graduate student, wouldn't recommend you to do it.

REES: Yeah. And who would harm you?

HANSEN: And so-- so it wasn't done.

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: And, so still when we look at applied anthropology within the anthropological network, still says that here are all of these problems in the world, critical issues that anthropologists, because of our recognition of other realities, and because of our willingness to go live in places where western social scientists don't live.

REES: Never go. Yeah.

HANSEN: Never go.

REES: Never would-- yeah.

HANSEN: You know, tourists, and adventurers might go, but no academic would go.

REES: Hmm-mm.

HANSEN: Because of that, we have this information, we have this potential to contribute, but as a discipline, we're only slowly accepting that as being 01:00:00professional, and it's still a real minority opinion.

REES: Yes.

HANSEN: I mean; you look at-- I mean, we have Human Organization.

REES: Yeah, look at the AAA, look at the--

HANSEN: Look at American Anthropologist.

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: Hey, give me a break.

REES: Nothing. Nothing.

HANSEN: No. I mean, we have-- and-- and Human Organization is set up by the Society for Applied Anthropology.

REES: Yeah, so--

HANSEN: Right, that's the voice. There are some other things, I mean, that-- the Journal on Disasters, the Journal of Refugee Issue Studies, and these things, Practicing Anthropology, these are brought up, but they are still off to the side. There's been a major shift, there's still an awful long distance to go.

REES: Yeah. I think there's still a whole lot of that, "is this really anthropology?" And, even in the case of refugees, I would be-- think that mainstream anthropology is more interested in things like identity--

HANSEN: Oh yeah. Absolutely.

REES: -- than in, you know? HANSEN: Absolutely. Absolutely.

REES: That's a whole other topic, I think, but they would be-- that would be more mainstream than, "how are these folks living?" As you say, how do people earn their living who are refugees.

HANSEN: Right. And, it does-- because, it's refugees, I mean, part of what I was interested in is they're-- they're reformulating who they are, how they're-- how are they going to earn a living, based on who they wanted to be, I mean, their own values were very important, because they did certain things, they didn't do other things, they made-- they made choices, even when they were-- food deficit, they would hold rituals, which required them to use food, life cycle rituals, they would celebrate those rituals with food, they weren't just being totally, you know, instrumentally rational, in which they were just using food for instrumental purposes, no, ritual was still essential. Life cycle things were essential.

REES: It keeps the group together. I mean, in the group--

HANSEN: It's identity-- identity is still as critical as breathing, as critical as eating, I mean people are putting that down there with the fundamental kinds of things they need to do.

REES: Well, and maybe they're not separate, or shouldn't be separate.

HANSEN: Yeah. But, I wouldn't-- studying refugees, then go at it with the interest of contributing only to the theories of identity. That wouldn't be what I was interested in doing.

REES: Yeah. It wouldn't be--

HANSEN: A byproduct is that, is byproduct is the theory--

REES: Well, I think the identity issue keeps people together, and keeps them-- and they depend on the group anyway in order to survive, whether they're in a famine or not, so, maybe especially when they're in a famine, I'm not sure. I have lots of questions to ask you more, but-- that are sure to go off our topics, but-- so you really came up, and I mentioned this to you before, in the 01:03:0060's and the 70's, can you-- what do you see has changed in the way we look at gender, or race, or any-- or class even, in those-- over those times? What-- I mean, I could talk for hours about how I changed, how it's affected me, and my perspective on the world, both doing fieldwork with people from other countries, as well as--

HANSEN: Right.

REES: The social milieu--

HANSEN: But, to me, the most dramatic shift has been gender.

REES: Mmhmm.

HANSEN: I mean, when I came back from the Peace Corps, in the late 60's, came back to the university, we were just going through the whole Vietnam War issues, the upsets. .

REES: Yeah, yeah.

HANSEN: That was the year, '68, '69 in which at Cornell, and Columbia, and all the-- a number of well publicized episodes, and at Cornell, I was very involved with that stuff. But, we didn't think about it at the time, the leaders were 01:04:00almost all men, and the women were all bringing us coffee and making sure that we had something to eat and drink, and taking-- you know, it was very traditional in gender ways. The civil rights issues had not moved to gender.

REES: Yeah. Yeah.

HANSEN: It's when you get into the 70's, is when you start getting the gender issues, and it's-- then in the 70's, where it's-- and the academy is elsewhere, among those of us who were quote-- you know, the term, for a kind of social change-- but all of the sudden, we started thinking, "oh, gee, women as equal?" Well, sure theoretically, but what does that mean in practice? And, at that time, it did mean, for women, a lot of anger.

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: There was a lot of anger at that time, going on.

REES: Yeah, and you might have been the brunt of it.

HANSEN: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Certainly was. And, being an anthropologist, and having gone-- having worked in anti-colonial, or post-colonial situations, I couldn't say that they were wrong, because if you had been a colonial person and someone said, "you know, you did X to me," and you said, "well, it wasn't really me," well, yeah, yeah, yeah, it was you.

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: You certainly benefited by that situation. And, sure, okay, I'm a nice guy, but sure, of course it's been unequal. Of course it's been unequal.

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: Yeah. And, you know, I've lived with, and lived through that time in which, first of all there was no recognition, then there was, what I would see 01:06:00as major an--- major issue with anger, and then trying to come through the issue of aggressiveness versus assertiveness. All of these buzz words that the women's movement have gone through to-- to have women understand that they could be assertive, without being aggressive, and of course, I mean, one of the major-- it's not an anomaly, but the fact that gender equality meant women could be like men, rather than that men or women could be like women or men, because it meant then that women would want the jobs that men had, and women could be as aggressive as men, and they could exhibit-- because masculine characteristics often were considered to be better--

REES: Right, you don't have men trying to be like women.

HANSEN: Right.

REES: Yeah. You're right.

HANSEN: And so it was one sided. I mean, that just happened. It did-- it did 01:07:00show up the sense that although there had been this idea about feminine characteristics being wonderful, a lot of women didn't think that they were as wonderful as the masculine traits, or they weren't as successful.

REES: Or, we might resist that imputation of essentialistic characteristics, such as maternalism or nurturing--

HANSEN: Right. Right.

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: And, I mean, that's when you get the fear of success business, I mean, I've been giving students, for a long time, men and women, giving this business about give them one sentence, and have them complete the story, you know, "Mary was accepted into med school, after which--" and the original way that that was used, that given to women, women would often come up with some way that Mary would get messed up.

REES: Is that right? HANSEN: Mary would, you know, flunk out of medical school, or Mary would get a degree and become a physician, but never get married and never have children, or-- I mean, all-- all these themes of failure. I switched it, because I would-- by slight of hand, I would have Johns on the bottom and Marys on the top, and I would give Marys to the women, Johns to the men. I was getting the same fear of failure with men, and often more, which men would come up, "John got admitted into medical school, after which--" they would come up with failure themes.

REES: Hey, that's cool. I'm sure it's true.

HANSEN: Yeah.

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: And, I mean the same-- in that sense, pressures, to succeed, this whole--

REES: Yeah. Everybody's got them.

HANSEN: Yeah, the need to achieve. But it wasn't the social-- the women were confronted with the fact that, "how can you be a professional success and be a mother? Wife and mother?" That role conflict. With men it wasn't a role conflict, it was just the pressure to-- to achieve, and your identity and achievement--

REES: In your career.

HANSEN: Right. You are your work.

REES: But now, I mean, I think there's still some gender inequalities in salaries, but that could be age as much as anything, because certainly most anthropology programs, and new hires are coming 50/50.

HANSEN: Well, anthropology is still pretty-- very unusual. In terms of either gender equal--- in num--- I'm talking just demographically. In terms of numbers. Even-- either equality-- closer equality is very different. I mean, you still have most disciplines are heavily one way or the other.

REES: Most disciplines, yeah, you're right, anthropology is weird. But that's again-- but at the same time, we're still really white.

HANSEN: Oh yeah.

REES: You know. And other disciplines are much less white, actually, than anthropology.

HANSEN: And-- see, that's, to me, the big shift-- you asked about gender, race, and class. The big shift to me has been gender.

REES: But you were this white boy in the middle of Africa, you must have been 01:10:00two times as tall as everybody--

HANSEN: Well, in La--- in Bolivia, two times as tall as everybody.

REES: And also, yeah, brown people--

HANSEN: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, in the-- in the-- in the U. S., I mean, we went through this-- I mean, we went through the-- the 54 was a decision on education, so growing up, and well, I was in colleges, I mean the Civil Rights movement, as an undergraduate, that's when we're having the sit-ins. That's-- I mean, I was a member of the Civil Rights movement at my college, and that's when-- I worked in the summer to earn a living, and had to pay for college, but my friends would then go on-- on the bus trips, and you know, they would-- the civil disobedience, but that was something I grew up with, so to me it wasn't change. The idea of-- well, the change was that more equality is accepted, whereas we were fighting for it in the beginning. The gender thing is much more surprising 01:11:00to me, because, in fact, I was essentially grown up, or had grown up experiences, and then all of the sudden get blind sided by, oh, my goodness, I had been totally unaware of this.

REES: Yeah. Yeah.

HANSEN: And then, living through that.

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: Class-- well, we had mentioned the fact that Marx had been totally forbidden, the awareness of class comes along with the emphasis on conflict, goes along with Marx, because in the U.S., we have, as part of our ideology said "we are classless," or, "we're all middleclass."

REES: Right. Right.

HANSEN: We have--

REES: It's very-- it's very hard to bet my students to think of anything else.

HANSEN: We've completely ignored the fact that there's an upper class.

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: An elite. And--

REES: That there's a huge--

HANSEN: -- the invisible underclass.

REES: Well, I think when I went to Mexico the first time was when I became aware that I was white, and there were a lot of privileges, and I was rich, and 01:12:00that's, I guess, you know, maybe it's not historic, it was just my own personal development that that-- I realized that, just by being there.

HANSEN: And I had-- yeah, by going to other places.

REES: And seeing-- and working with people of different skin, and different culture, and everything.

HANSEN: Yeah. It-- I mean, I'm certainly not colorblind, that'd be absurd, I mean, I'm an American, therefore I'm racist, I mean, that-- we just-- we're-- we're brought up in that way, but I must admit that I-- I ignore that, at a subconscious level I ignore that.

REES: Well, you worked with lots of Africans, I mean--

HANSEN: I worked with Africans, Latin Americans--

REES: -- they must be so much a part of your--

HANSEN: -- and now I must admit it is an absolutely treat, in that way, to be working in a historically black school.

REES: Yeah. Yeah.

HANSEN: Because, when I come in, the majority of the students are African American, a lot of the faculty are African American, or foreign, and that means that the classes come with a third world, or minority perspective.

REES: Different. Completely different. Yeah, I'm sure that would be such a--

HANSEN: Such a-- well, it's such-- it's such-- it's a treat, but it's also a surprise, because rather than having to talk to students about that--

REES: Mmhmm. They already know it.

HANSEN: They come from that, and so you have to--

REES: Oh--

HANSEN: There are other lessons you have to-- you have to talk about. You have to say, "let's-- let me try to tell you the rationale for the majority perspective."

REES: [chuckle]

HANSEN: Have you tried-- have you-- suspend disbelief for a moment, in order to understand the rationale of--

REES: [chuckle] As if there is one.

HANSEN: Yeah, so it's very difficult.

REES: Well, gosh, I've got other questions to ask, but one of the-- one thing-- I don't know, I would ask you what did you learn in grad school? And, what would 01:14:00you think students could do? Or should do, if they were going to study anthropology. That's a question I made up.

HANSEN: I was thinking-- it-- I was thinking about this, I mean, the-- thinking about the interview spurred me to think about this, what got me interested in anthropology, and what seems to interest other people? It's certainly not the theories, it is more the ethnographies, but more-- more than that, it is personal experience with people from other cultures.

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: The personal experience. And so, when I bring in either students, or people from town, from other societies, into class, and confront the students with an opportunity to-- to ask questions, talk with somebody who's very different--

REES: They love it.

HANSEN: Well, they love it, and it is-- that's what interests them in anthropology.

REES: Yeah. Right.

HANSEN: And, it's the fact that outside of that classroom situation, a) they wouldn't associate with other people, because there is this flocking together, you know, this source of homogeneity of residents, of interest groups, of your friendships, that they're often very like you, but you also don't have a-- a safe space in which you could ask questions, without either being rude, obtrusive, whatever. Whereas in class, you bring in someone, you say, "this person is here, ask questions, this person knows you're supposed to ask questions," it's freedom.

REES: Mmhmm. And when you hear a person tell their story, if you have this idea that they're bad, or they're lazy, or they're-- whatever, illegal, and you hear them tell their story, it's a transforming experience to hear another human tell 01:16:00their story.

HANSEN: The most visual experience I had was something like that. I used to teach, for a number of years at Florida, a human sexuality class. It was by pure chance it ended up in the anthropology department, but we ended up with the an--- with--

REES: Not a boring class, I'm sure. Mmhmm.

HANSEN: And, I would bring in gays or lesbians for class.

REES: Yes.

HANSEN: And so, we'd have this discussion group size, because it was a large lecture class, like 3-500 students in a lecture, but they would-- once a week, you'd have a discussion section, of like 30 students, and I would say, "okay, this week, or next week, I'm going to bring in some gays and lesbians for you to talk to you about their experience, these are going to be students who are gays and lesbian, to talk about their experiences, you can ask them questions. And, there'd be this--

REES: Gulp.

HANSEN: Yeah, because there was-- I mean, it's just Mary Douglass, you know, about purity and danger, we knew-- sexual danger, which is so important to 01:17:00people. But, in the beginning of class, come in with these folks, and I would pick students, that makes it so much more real than if you got-- You know, older-- older people aren't really people anymore, right, they're, oh, a student, like me.

REES: No, it's true, with students work. Yeah.

HANSEN: Right, bring them in, sit them in front, and I could see students in the class. .

REES: Physically move back.

HANSEN: Arms closed, and with their-- this sort of-- all this hidden behavior, leaning back--

REES: Edward T. Hall--

HANSEN: Yeah. Yeah.

REES: -- rises again, you know.

HANSEN: And then, as the class would go on, they would lean forward, they would get more open, because they would ask questions, and they would discover that these were people.

REES: Yeah, they're people.

HANSEN: And they would discover that, in fact, all the purity and danger that there is with sexuality-- your sexual orientation is not the most important thing about you, it's one of the things about you, and a lot of times you're just a student.

REES: That's great.

HANSEN: Or a boy, or girl, I mean you're doing all sorts of other things, and that's just something. But seeing that-- well, that's the thing as 01:18:00anthropologists, to me, that sexuality class was-- particularly the business with gays and lesbians, was so much a part of anthropology, because it is opening people's minds to different realities, different perspectives, getting rid of some of your--

REES: And just hearing that really-- they really-- that's a great idea.

HANSEN: Yeah. I would sometimes also, in that class, or others, I would get an African friend, or a Latin American friend, because as you know, many times in Latin America or Africa, guys would hold hands, and you'd walk along holding hands.

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: And so I would meet this friend of mine, guy, outside of class, and we would talk, and we'd be holding hands and walking to class, and holding hands, you know, talk for a little bit, then have him leave, and then turn to class and say, "Am I gay?"

REES: [chuckle]

HANSEN: And, because I knew they were thinking, "look at him!"

REES: "oh, he's gay!"

HANSEN: And, then of course, we could get into the fact that, you know, the same behavior may mean different things, different to different people, different cultures, but to get them-- to get students, you want to get-- you want to have them confront their implicit judgment, and have them ask questions about it.

REES: That's wonderful. Well, what about something that your students have taught you? I find that teaching--

HANSEN: Right. Something? How much. So much.

REES: Anything, yeah. Anything come to your mind? HANSEN: One thing that comes to mind very clearly, not-- well, students, but it was also just colleagues, I taught about Africa for a long time, because before I became a faculty member, I was-- I'd done my dissertation research, etc, and so I would always give slides 01:20:00in classes of Africa, well of course my research has been rural, and it has been with people-- with refugees, it's been with poorer people, it's looking at spirit possession, looking at what is-- what is different about Africa. I would have African students, or African colleagues come in to give guest lectures, and they would always preface their presentation, like 5 or 10 slides of downtown Nairobi, this is the central bank in the capitol city, this is the main street with all the-- you know.

REES: That's true. Yeah.

HANSEN: They would be showing apartment-- department stores, they would--

REES: Yeah. "This is us in all of our splendor and glory," and you're out there showing a cow paddy.

HANSEN: I thought--

REES: Duh.

HANSEN: Hello, right. You're right. So, now I do that. Now I-- you know, we used 01:21:00to start off with the obligatory-- you know, these are cities, these are states, these are people living in our-- you know, they've got cell phones and that kind of stuff.

REES: Yeah. Yeah.

HANSEN: Even though it's not heartland of what I have done, but it's clear--

REES: That's great.

HANSEN: -- a lesson learned.

REES: That's great. Yeah. And it's true, we don't know so much. Well, another thing we mentioned here was your family, and having kids, and how that's affected you, and you know, like a lot of times we talk about people's careers as if their family wasn't part of who they are, but in your case, I do think it is.

HANSEN: Oh yeah. When-- although, that was also clearly one of the disconnects, because I met my first wife in graduate school, we got married, and she was all set to go off to do her dissertation research, and became pregnant, with our son.

REES: So you all had a baby while you were in Zambia?

HANSEN: We-- no, no, no. She became pregnant while we were at Cornell, and so we then went into, you know, went out to her committee, because she was going to have to delay for a year going to the field because she was pregnant. And her committee's response was, "you're pregnant, that's a disaster."

REES: Oh, wow.

HANSEN: And, you look at the model-- Elizabeth Colson, and other women who were some of the progenitors of children, married, like, you know, Margaret Mead. The typical thing is she goes up to the river with one husband and comes down with another.

REES: That's right. [chuckle]

HANSEN: You know, Margaret--

REES: An inspiration to us all. [chuckle]

HANSEN: You know, Elizabeth Colson never married, I mean, there was the idea 01:23:00that the anthropologist, that one person, whether you're a man or a woman, you alone go to the field. Families are an obstacle, they're a hindrance. So, although there were anthropologists who went to the field with their families, the model, when I was going to grad school, was--

REES: Was not. Huh-uh. Anti-family, you're right.

HANSEN: Keep them home.

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: Don't get married until you've done fieldwork.

REES: That's right.

HANSEN: Good heavens, don't have any children.

REES: That's right, don't do anything so indiscreet as to actually--

HANSEN: Right, but that's a disaster. Having a child is a disaster. Well, it did mean, of course, a delay, but as soon as our son was 10 months old, because at that time, you couldn't get key vaccinations until they're 10 months old, would get the vaccinations, and then could travel. So we ended up going for two years to Zambia, so my son-- his first language was this African language, and--

REES: And I bet you having a son didn't hurt you at all in your field work.

HANSEN: Oh, total help.

REES: I bet you it made you look like normal human beings.

HANSEN: Total help, having a family meant you were normal.

REES: Normal, yeah. Yeah.

HANSEN: And, in terms of participant observation, oh, you participated in so many ways when you're-- got a family.

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: And, so, you know, you're setting up, I mean you have a household, the cooking, and a child to take care of, but I mean you learn so much that you would otherwise not learn, because you wouldn't think about it.

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: And, of course, in terms of not only being accepted, but also for you to just-- to see so many other dimensions, because you have other responsibilities.

REES: You have a life, yeah. You have an-- effect of a--

HANSEN: Yeah, so I think it was-- it was critically important. As I said, when I went there, this was a-- this was a situation that was sensitive. That's an understatement, sensitive. I had been in the-- first of all, we went-- we 01:25:00studied the Luvale, Vic [Victor W.] Turner had been my wife's major advisor, and Vic Turner, of course, studied the Dembaluga, and when his-- when his student was going to go to the field, Vic said, "study the Luvale," The Lunda like the English, the Luvale like the Irish, they're just very-- a lot of fun, you'll like them, go study the Luvale. So, we decided to go study Luvale. Well, it took a while to figure out where to go. We had to pick a place in Zambia for the Luvale. We finally got to this space, which is near the Angolan border, by happenstance, it just turned out to be the place that made sense, for other reasons to go. We'd then been there about two weeks, and it turned out that the Luvale and this other group there were having-- had been a long term continuing 01:26:00conflict. And so this area we were going to, we just hadn't understood it, was-- hadn't had a chief, a resident chief for a long time because of this conflict. The Luvale had been hatching their plans all along, and we'd just been there a couple of weeks, and they brought in a chief-- a chieftainess -- installed her there. They have a sense that if things are-- are upset, instead of-- they have both men and women chiefs. So you could have a woman chieftainess come in, because she would cool the waters, whereas men are more aggressive, women are cooler. So, they brought in a chieftainess and installed her. Well, of course the Lunda then complained bitterly to the national government that this is wrong, and they said, "see, they're bringing in guns, it's right on the border," so we were just there a couple weeks, this chieftain is installed, I'm just studying all this stuff, what do I know is going on, and then one night I'm 01:27:00awakened at two in the morning with this sort of noise, I wake up right outside our place with-- right in the middle of this village where all these Land Rovers, the paramilitary had come in, and that night they came in and arrested all the major Luvale leaders, took them away to detention, because they said, "here is this upset," they took the chieftainess, you know, sent her back where she came from, so all of a sudden here is this major paramilitary action. Well then when I start walking out in the villages, it's, "who are you?" I mean, the sensitivity was enormous, and they thought, again, you're not a missionary--

REES: Yeah. You're not a missionary, yeah.

HANSEN: You're not a trader, you're a government, therefore a government official who is not telling us he's a government official, i.e. a spy, and the only way I was able to continue doing fieldwork is because we had done things the traditional way. We're outside academics coming in. We had an affiliation 01:28:00with the University of Zambia, therefore we had governmental permission, so we could have gone anywhere in Zambia because we had governmental permission, but we hadn't done that. Before going to that place with the University, with the government, you know, approval, university affiliation, we had first gone to the senior chief of the Luvale, and we had stayed there for a couple of weeks with that senior chief to talk about what we wanted to do, to go through the indigenous political structure, and with the chief's permission, etc. where he thought was the most appropriate place, then we had the chief send his emissary to take us to that place to introduce us to the leaders there, and so when the stuff hit the fan several weeks later, and they said, "who are you?" I could say, "is your chief a spy?" "No, of course not." "Did I come by myself?" "No, 01:29:00the chief sent you." Oh, okay. Because, I-- so, because I had--

REES: Cool. That's exactly--

HANSEN: -- the support-- because I had come in with the chief's-- the chief had sent his chief of staff there to introduce me to the headman. So, everything was right. So, having done that, which, no one--

REES: You didn't know how important that was going to be.

HANSEN: No. You know, no one taught us methods, right?

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: But it just made sense that we would go through an indigenous power structure, as well as a national power structure, and as it turned out, it was critically important.

REES: Yeah. Yeah.

HANSEN: Otherwise, we would have been gone.

REES: Yeah. Or worse.

HANSEN: At the best, we would have been gone.

REES: Yeah. Or worse.

HANSEN: It did mean I stopped talking about politics, and I just did gender.

REES: Well yes, that'd be good.

HANSEN: I just did genealogies.

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: You know, part of the basic social anthropology, we did genealogies to-- I started doing a map, you know, to do a census of the whole area, and no one, it's not dangerous at all, when--

REES: Genealogies are usually less dangerous. They could be dangerous, you know, if there's hanky panky, and other kinds of things, but--

HANSEN: But even in this case, where some of these people are refugees, I wasn't asking about the migration history, I was just, you know.

REES: Right, the name of your--

HANSEN: "Who was the woman who gave birth to you? And did that woman have any sisters? Who was the woman who gave birth to her, and how many children did that woman have?" I mean, all that kind of stuff.

REES: That's nice. Most people like telling their family histories.

HANSEN: Right.

REES: Now, we do it on a computer though, and that is something else that's changed, because now, you know--

HANSEN: Oh yeah, absolutely.

REES: Well, do kids of anthropologists hate being-- hate anthropology?

HANSEN: Well, my son's got an MBA. He said, "you academics, you work to hard, and you don't get enough money."

REES: Well that's true.

HANSEN: So, yeah, he got an MBA, he works with Microsoft.

REES: Yeah, okay. I'm trying to think if I know any anthropologists whose kids--

HANSEN: There are.

REES: Claudio Lomnitz's mother's an anthropologist.

HANSEN: There are some of these--

REES: Not very many.

HANSEN: -- several generation families of anthropologists, but--

REES: the Whitefords.

HANSEN: Yeah. Yeah. But--

REES: Not very many.

HANSEN: Not many.

REES: No, not many. Because they take their kids out to these godforsaken places, that's what I was thinking, and the kid says, "never again."

HANSEN: But it's also, I think, because we live in a society in which there's so many options for university educated people--

REES: You can go somewhere-- go anywhere you want.

HANSEN: Yeah.

REES: Okay, now talk about Scott Robinson.

HANSEN: Oh yeah. I met Scott in New Orleans.

REES: Yeah. In New Orleans? HANSEN: I was at Cornell in graduate school, had come back from the field, yeah, it was as a year, I'd come back from Zambia, '68 01:32:00to '70, come back-- from '68 to '70 I was at Cornell. '70 to '72 was in Zambia. Came back for the '72-'73 academic year. In the Fall of '72, went down to New Orleans, to the AAA meeting.

REES: Oh, okay.

HANSEN: And, at the AAA meeting, met Scott, who had finished his research in Ecuador, and was coming up with the AAA, and was talking about-- as-- he's a Cornell grad, as I was.

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: He needed to come back to Cornell to finish writing up his dissertation, and I said, "hey, we've got this farmhouse, come stay with us." So, when Scott came up that school year, that '72-'73 school year, Scott came up and stayed with us. And, so we had an extra bedroom, and he just stayed with us, that's how we met Scott. And, that's also how we ended up driving down in the model A Fords down to Mexico for his wedding.

REES: Oh, is that right? Okay. And so then he went to Mexico after that year, he 01:33:00went back to Mexico.

HANSEN: Right. Right.

REES: I can't remember, because I met him in [?], in [Universidad Autonoma] Metropolitana, which is where he still is.

HANSEN: Yeah.

REES: When I went there. But he must have been there--

HANSEN: Let's see, '73, the summer of '73--

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: Is when we then went down-- he had all these model A's, he collected these 1920, 1930 cars and drove down from Ithaca, New York down to Mexico City. Actually, the only car that made it all the way was the one I drove. The others, for various reasons got parked in various places, banana groves, garages.

REES: Oh my God.

HANSEN: But, we ended up with my wife, myself, and our baby-- oh, so this was the summer of '70.

REES: No.

HANSEN: No? S--- no, the summer of '70. The summer of '70.

REES: Your first year, before you went to Zambia.

HANSEN: The summer of '70, because our son was like 7 months old.

REES: Okay. Okay.

HANSEN: It was before we went to Zambia, yeah.

REES: Okay.

HANSEN: '70, before we went to Zambia.

REES: Okay.

HANSEN: And, he-- yeah, Scott was a treat. But he was in-- he was staying in Mexico, he got married that summer--

REES: And then he--

HANSEN: He stayed there.

REES: -- stayed there, and started-- he had been involved in getting-- putting together all this heavy equipment for the videotaping and stuff there.

HANSEN: Right, he's--

REES: Scott, with us, would every-- every now and then, every some evening, he'd come back, just clump, clump, clump and Scott would come in with a new piece of heavy equipment.

HANSEN: He had so mu--- it was like he brought it, I mean, like the Kaypro computers, everything. He--

[End of tape 1, side 2]

[Beginning of tape 2, side 1]

REES: Hansen on May 22, 2003, and this is side 3 of our tapes. Okay, year, so--

HANSEN: '64-'68 Peace Corps.

REES: '64-'68.

HANSEN: '68-'70 was in-- at Cornell, got married, had a baby, doing fieldwork. It must have been, then, '69, that-- must have met Scott in '69, the Fall of '69 at the New Orleans--

REES: Mmhmm. Mmhmm.

HANSEN: -- AAA meeting, so, he came back for the '69-'70 school year. We went down the summer of '70 to Mexico City.

REES: Mmhmm.

HANSEN: For his marriage. Then we left '70-'72 in Zambia.

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: For fieldwork. Came back in '72-'73 back at Cornell, and then were in Florida.

REES: And then you went to Florida.

HANSEN: Yeah.

REES: Okay, and then that's when you got-- you got a job at Florida in '74 then, or '73?

HANSEN: '73-- my wife had a job from '73 on at Florida. I was there, originally, not with a job, but I-- I went down, to actually get a job at Miami, at the 01:36:00University of Miami, in the department of obstetrics and gynecology.

REES: Oh.

HANSEN: Because it was that department that they were running grants out of. I went down for a study of Hispanics, as part of a multicultural study with drug use, a lot of NIDA national institute of drug abuse money was there initially, so this an area where they were doing drug abuse, and I was down there for a year. The whole idea was, when I was in Florida, since my wife had a job, and I was there, they could just hire me as an adjunct.

REES: Yeah. Mmhmm.

HANSEN: But when I took a real job at Miami--

REES: Usually women that get stuck in that--

HANSEN: Yeah, but different when-- when I took a real job at Miami, then to get me to come back to Florida, they had to offer me a real job. So I came back in '75 and started full-time at Florida.

REES: And then you started-- came here in what, '99? Or '98?

HANSEN: '98.

REES: '98.

HANSEN: And, while I was that year in Miami, then when I was actually-- who were the main Hispanics, Cubans, I was-- studied Cuban refugees in the U.S. as well. Sort of picked up on the refugee--

REES: Well what should we do in the future?

HANSEN: Well, there's still the dichotomy between university faculty, very few of whom actually know anything about working outside of the academy, and our students, who overwhelmingly are going to be getting jobs outside of the academy. I mean, if you go to like, let's say the business school, you often get people with experience in business coming back teaching in the business school.

REES: Right. Right.

HANSEN: In anthropology--

REES: No.

HANSEN: No.

REES: You don't do that. You don't have the space for the-- really--

HANSEN: And their-- but, our graduates, and to a great extent our undergraduates, I mean, many people get undergraduate degrees and they don't go on for graduate degrees, they go out and work. But, somebody with a BA in Anthropology, do they really know, or appreciate, how they could utilize that? Or sell themselves? Market those skills in the market place?

REES: I think sometimes they do if they already have a job, like in a social service agency, then they put it right to use, and some of my students here, and at Agnes Scott, have been able to parlay either some research they've done here to-- into working at a social service agency like Latin American Association, for example.

HANSEN: Right.

REES: You know.

HANSEN: I mean, the clearest thing is to base it and say, "we do multicultural work."

REES: Mmhmm.

HANSEN: And, in the world outside the academy, multicultural is an important issue.

REES: It is, it's everyday--

HANSEN: But, that's not saying anything about anthropology, that's just saying, you know, you can survive in a multicultural environment.

REES: Yeah, you understand the challenges of it. You know, I think even your school experience, not even in anthropology, but I do think all that is really important.

HANSEN: Yeah. But even more so for our graduate students, again, they're normally leading the faculty in terms of what do they need to do in order to get a job.

REES: Yes.

HANSEN: And, I used to say, when I was-- when I was advisor for the graduate program at Florida, I was telling students who were-- who had had some experience, because you'd often get ex-Peace Corps volunteers, or people who have had some kind of international experience, and often were then working for an NGO, or whatever, and they were-- they wanted-- they wanted to learn more, they wanted to know more. That reason to go on to graduate school, that 01:40:00curiosity. I said, "don't cut off--" because commonly what happens, you cut that off, go to school, stay in school for a few years, and when you leave, it's like you're newly born. I said, "why don't you talk to the agency you're now working with and say, 'I want to go to graduate school, are there questions you would like answers to? Let me be your-- I'll have you as my client, you have some questions, I'm going to go learn about anthropology, but I'm going to keep those questions in my mind, and see if I can, in fact, find out some answers for you'."

REES: You could even make that sort of like part of their anthropology program.

HANSEN: Yeah. So, I mean, when students were working with me, I would encourage them to when they came in, and they're taking classes, I would say, "do a paper on this, keep working on these things, action oriented, client oriented research."

REES: And you can get a job with that, you know. Or keep your job.

HANSEN: You can often maybe work for them in the summer in consulting, you can certainly get a job later on, but you also are not going to have that split, that I had had, of coming into a place where-- forget anything you knew, we're going to teach you academic anthropology, and then after you graduate, you can forget everything you learned here, because then you've got to get a job.

REES: Yeah. So where are your students going now? That get out of your program?

HANSEN: At Florida or here? REES: Here.

HANSEN: Because here is a multidisciplinary--

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: I'm the only anthropologist around. And I'm not, per se, teaching anthropology.

REES: Yes.

HANSEN: I'm--

REES: Heavily imbued.

HANSEN: Oh, sure, I mean the-- they appreciate the anthropological perspectives when they get out, but they're mainly-- work for NGOs, you know, CARE, or Africare, or couple going to, like state department, interested in the U.N., the 01:42:00public health programs--

REES: These are U.S. Citizens mainly? Or both?

HANSEN: About 1/3 of the students are foreign.

REES: Uh-huh. That's great too.

HANSEN: Yeah, gives you that third world, as well as minority perspective.

REES: Yes.

HANSEN: But also, at a place like Atlanta, or in the U.S., as we just talk about anthropology graduates, wherever you've got multicultural communities. So all of your-- all of your welfare agencies, your public health programs, they all need people who are sensitive to other people.

REES: Right. Right.

HANSEN: It helps if they speak the other language--

REES: Right, but even if you don't, just your attitude.

HANSEN: Just your attitude. As opposed to coming in, you know, and you treat them like, "if you don't speak English, you didn't come from here, go away," no.

REES: Even in, for example, the Latino community there's class and ethnic and skin color issues.

HANSEN: Yeah, right.

REES: I mean, within Africa, and any-- within any nation in Africa, or probably 01:43:00even any region, yeah.

HANSEN: Oh yeah.

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: I mean, there's no unified Somali community, there's no unified Ethiopian community.

REES: Right, just because you're Somali doesn't mean--

HANSEN: Right. And heaven forbid a pan African, you've got to be kidding.

REES: Yes.

HANSEN: It's like, your Cubans, and your Columbians, and Mexicans, we're--

REES: We're all fighting each other. And even Mexicans--

HANSEN: You would [?], oh yeah, yeah.

REES: You know. Okay, well, I've got more things-- I guess-- I'll ask you to add anything else, but my last question that I had in my little list is what is the relationship between anthropology, practicing anthropology, or applied anthropology and the state? Which means that a lot of times we are hired by government organizations, but on the other hand, a lot of times we're in this advocate position of we're clients, or victims, or whatever, what do you think about that? What do you--

HANSEN: Here is a-- here is a major issue. We can go back to the Vietnam War, clearly, on this.

REES: Yeah. Yeah.

HANSEN: Because, the Vietnam War clearly was a defining time, in terms of anti-government feeling among academics.

REES: Mmhmm. Very much. Very much.

HANSEN: Very much so. But then, of course, there are the Reagan years, and there was a-- the Bush years. You know, I have a sign out in front of my house, "war is not the answer."

REES: Yeah, me too.

HANSEN: I mean, there's very-- there are very clear differences between conservative governments and liberal-- consistent theme would be liberals among academic. And, of course the CIA has a well-deserved reputation, for a long 01:45:00time, of being an instrument of a very conservative cold war government, or a series of governments with assassinations, and overthrows of, you know, any liberal progressive government. So, there was a very strong sense of opposition between anthropologists and the government.

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: Along with that was the other opposition between anthropologists and development programs.

REES: Mmhmm.

HANSEN: Because, development programs were, you know, whose development? It was-- you're almost always externally planned, externally conceived, even if they're by planners in that host country, those planners are not representative of the-- of the--

REES: Right, they have class, and ethnic, and all kinds of--

HANSEN: Yeah.

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: So, I mean those were two oppositions. Well, and now, more recently, since 9/11, there has been much more of a willingness on the part of liberals, 01:46:00as well as others, to accept that our government has a right and a responsibility to collect intelligence.

REES: Mmhmm.

HANSEN: Now, that doesn't mean there we are fans of the Patriot Act.

REES: Right. Right.

HANSEN: It doesn't mean we want to go back to Joe McCarthy, or go back to Assassinations and overthrows, but it does mean that there is-- we should be willing to recognize functions of a state and the fact that the state has a-- has a responsibility, in terms of policies, well-informed policies.

REES: You're right. Right.

HANSEN: Talk about intelligence, how do you have well-informed policies? That means based on intelligence. And, obviously, having terrorist attacks, threats in which the U.S. is now very terrorist oriented.

REES: We're very nervous, aren't we? Yes. Yes.

HANSEN: Very nervous. There is much more of an understanding of the need for the government to have good intelligence. So, I think it's a pendulum, we're too much on the other side, so we're willing to accept torture as an instrument of state policy.

REES: Yes.

HANSEN: We're willing to accept a lot of-- well, the Patriot Act, a loss of a lot of hard-earned civil liberties.

REES: Very-- yeah.

HANSEN: Because of feeling that it's, you know, we need you for national security. Going back to-- like the Joe McCarthy, like the concentration camps--

REES: Right. Right. Very much. Very much.

HANSEN: -- in terms of, you know, for the Japanese, very-- very much like that. I have a real concern about it. But, the baby, in this bathwater, is, I think, a recognition that intelligence is something that our government, as well as all governments has a right to collect, and it's in the people's best interest that 01:48:00that be correct intelligence.

REES: I do think that in the U.S. Government, intelligence has been so bad. You know, like look at the Iran crisis, you know.

HANSEN: Yeah, and clearly what's happened in the U.S. has been we have been so I.T. focused, we've been so--

REES: [inaudible]

HANSEN: Yeah, so high-tech, we-- high-tech, low salary, you know, we've moved away with a high cost of labor, we've moved away from labor intensive to capital intensive everything, including intelligence gathering, so, you know, we listen in on the chatter of all radios and cell phones around the world, but we don't pay spies on the ground. We're now realizing, again, the need for human involvement.

REES: There's so much that we've missed the boat on.

HANSEN: Yeah.

REES: I heard that, you know, the Army-- or department of defense spokesman said the other day, "even without torture, it's amazing what people will tell you, if 01:49:00you just--" whatever. You were talking about these guys on the deck of cards. I'm going, even without torture? So, how would you know this? You know, if you hadn't already tried to torture--

HANSEN: Well, and sensory deprivation techniques, in fact, --

REES: Certainly.

HANSEN: Putting somebody in a hood for a long period of time, and there was something in the paper, it was in the last week, about music, about how you could get people to, you know, by-- by playing, you know, heavy metal music, you could--

REES: [chuckle] You can play rock music and they'll confess. [chuckle]

HANSEN: Yeah, but what they didn't say, is how loud you're playing that music.

REES: Yeah. Yeah.

HANSEN: I mean, you can-- it is torture. You can-- if you were playing music very loudly, what you're really-- it's torture, and we're ignoring that.

REES: Yeah, and I'm sure there's been a few other slips of the hand.

HANSEN: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

REES: You know.

HANSEN: How many guns have been pointed at people, you know, "tell me what I want, or--"

REES: Yeah. I mean, that happens in police stations. Yeah. I do think-- I think that we're at a critical time in the world, though. And, in a way the world has changed, but there's also lots of bad things that are happening.

HANSEN: But there's been-- but there's been a very dramatic shift in the U.S. in terms of, you know, our willingness to use naked force--

REES: And put up with things that we wouldn't have.

HANSEN: Yeah. But anyway, I mean, I think, at the same time, I think that there's are a tremendous number of opportunities for people with anthropological awareness.

REES: I would think that they should be looking more at anthropologists. And, in other countries, in Mexico, anthropologists are all over the front page of the paper, you know? Here, you're what? You know. I mean, anthropology is part of a certain national discourse in this country.

HANSEN: But, at the same time, within the discipline, I must admit, there's so much navel watching that goes on.

REES: Mmhmm. Mmhmm.

HANSEN: I mean, I accept the need for reflective, interpretive, introspective-- but this is part of this ongoing debate about collecting information versus who are we, and what are the biases that we bring to this. This is an ongoing back and forth, but there is-- and it goes along with this academic orientation. I think there are too many anthropologists for whom, the most interesting people to study are anthropologists.

REES: Or themselves, yeah. Yeah. I agree. I agree.

HANSEN: And so, you-- you know, you better do your thesis on my introspective whatever.

REES: Experience--

HANSEN: What about child soldiers? What about wars? What about these societies that are undergoing-- what about Iraq? And the Iraqis? What they're going through? REES: Anthropologists should really be doing more. There is something about it that just came out in the newsletter that was more about war, but I would have wished that there would have been more. Yeah, I think the introspection thing is okay, but I also wonder, what's the larger social 01:52:00framework for that? And, it is partly that it's hard to get money to go overseas, Americans can't go just anywhere, you know, because our white privileges sort of been curtailed, but there's also maybe a sort of a climate of couch potatoing, and looking inward, and that may be the social context of that interpretive trend.

HANSEN: Well, and if you look back, so much of this came out of literary criticism, and literary critics don't do field work, so there is a real--

REES: They don't write either. [chuckle]

HANSEN: -- retrenchment. There's a real retrenchment from field work.

REES: Yeah. But I thought that it was harder to get funds, so then people started studying things they could study here, and so then you start developing theories or perspectives that sort of permit that, I guess. Or--

HANSEN: Yeah, but the same thing is, how many anthropologists are really working on questions of poverty in the U.S.? Underclass? Okay, we had that.

REES: Yeah. Yeah.

HANSEN: Now, do we just leave that? Sociologists, in many ways, and anthropologists, of course, there are a lot of similarities. We have talked about differences in the past, but if you're going to have anthropologists here, that doesn't mean you necessarily have to only study minorities, that doesn't mean that you necessarily can't study societal problems.

REES: Yeah. Yeah. But how many do study poverty? I mean, a lot of sociologists do well--

HANSEN: Right, but see the thing for anthropologists, we have been so much defined by who we study, others, and using participant observation.

REES: Mmhmm. Mmhmm.

HANSEN: I think the third issue though, is this consciousness of other realities.

REES: Right.

HANSEN: And I think participant observation, although very important, is very high cost.

REES: Very high cost.

HANSEN: Very high cost. And by doing that, there are lots of things we don't do.

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: And, as long as you define yourself only by doing participant observation, there are certain things you're not going to do.

REES: Like, do anything that's regional. I mean, if you're doing participant observation, you're in one town, period, so it can be--

HANSEN: And, again, I remember studying-- when I was-- I'd done Latin Americans for four years before going into-- into anthropology, then I did two years in Africa, then I come back, since then, I've primarily done research in Africa, but I got interested in displaced people, but I would have anthropologists tell me I couldn't talk about people if I didn't speak their language, if I hadn't done participant observation there with that group. So, to study a topic, like displacement, no, no, no, no. Your-- the anthropological orientation towards region.

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: Toward, you know, being embedded in a culture. I think that's a very valuable, but I'm unwilling to say that I can only work in areas where I speak the language and I've spent two or more years doing fieldwork.

REES: Right. Right.

HANSEN: I've gone to lots of places where I have to use interpreters. Working with one area in Eritrea where I had to use two interpreters, because they spoke six languages, none of which I spoke, and no interpreter spoke all six. So I had two interpreters. Well, what-- I'm not going to-- I'm not going to refuse to work here because I haven't done.

REES: No. No. No. Absolutely not.

HANSEN: And, I've discovered that you can do a lot of good, insightful work, which can really contribute to other people's understanding through interpreters.

REES: But I do think it's good to start out your education with some kind of experience.

HANSEN: Oh yeah. Yeah.

REES: And language.

HANSEN: Otherwise, if I hadn't had that development experience, I wouldn't have learned-- I wouldn't have known how much I was gaining as an anthropologist.

REES: Yeah. Yeah.

HANSEN: And, yeah, the idea that once you see yourself someplace else, then you come back as a stranger, which is good.

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: You come home as a stranger.

REES: You do.

HANSEN: Which is good.

REES: That's good. Yeah.

HANSEN: That's very important to do that.

REES: I like that. You know, when I look back about how much I didn't know when I went out there, I can't even say that I know it now. I-- when you're talking about bringing it back home, I didn't get it, it still goes on in my own life. So, I'll meet somebody and I'll say, you know, "is what happening here because she's German and I'm American? Or, she's just obnoxious." Or whatever, you know.

HANSEN: Right. But it does mean--

REES: I'm asking the question. Oh yeah.

HANSEN: Right. The flip side also is that-- [chuckle] I'm not really necessarily at home anywhere.

REES: Or everywhere, yeah.

HANSEN: Yeah, but you're-- I mean, I-- my insti--- I have some instincts, but my 01:57:00instincts are really for Iowa. I mean, you wear costumes, it seemed to be appropriate wherever they are, but it's not like it's your home costume. They're all costumes.

REES: Mmhmm.

HANSEN: They're all customs that happen to be appropriate here, some of them I feel more comfortable with-- I feel more comfortable with a whole mélange of customs, you know, it's not like you feel comfortable with-- it's not like there's a set you feel comfortable with in opposition to the others.

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: Your set of things you feel comfortable with now, includes elements from-- it's like a global set.

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: It's real hard for me to shake hands. I shake hands two handed.

REES: How come? HANSEN: Commonly Africans--

REES: You're holding your hand-- oh, they do that? HANSEN: Yeah, it's-- or it's two handed.

REES: Like that, oh.

HANSEN: I mean, one of the things-- one of the things I learned in the first 01:58:00fieldwork is you relate to people, you don't-- you don't separate yourself. So, like in the U.S., like if I'm leaving and you said, you know, "oh, I need a pen," I'd say, "okay, here," and I could throw it to you. If I were doing that-- I could see Africans going [gasp]-- because you would--

REES: Proffer it.

HANSEN: But-- and, so it's a handshake, it is-- you know, it's not--

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: It's-- if you throw your hand out, you separate, you know, it's out there. You meet people, but at a distance.

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: Whereas you are. .

REES: Folding your hands until they're--

HANSEN: -- you're together. I mean, it's--

REES: That's neat.

HANSEN: To me, it's just normal to shake hands two handedly, and I would go-- other people in African societies, and they would be whatever, and I would say just look, when we're going to the hotel, and the clerk gives us the key, see if 01:59:00you notice anything different about how she or he hands you the key. Or, they'll westernize, so they'll just move it back.

REES: But so then they must think that we're horribly--

HANSEN: Western.

REES: Yeah. I mean, in Mexico if you walk out of a room without saying goodbye, if you smoke a cigarette without offering it to anyone, and even when you greet someone with a kiss the way I greeted you, I mean we always do that, we're just very Latino in that sense, but if you're doing it to somebody who is from Europe, I've almost gotten my head knocked off, because then they're switching around to kiss you on the other cheek.

HANSEN: Right. Right. Right. Right.

REES: Well that's nice. I don't know, I have this idea that I can live anywhere. I mean, I've lived in so many weird places, but I always try to say, "well this is where I'm living now, so this is going to be my home."

HANSEN: Right. Right. But, in that sense, you don't have any home.

REES: No.

HANSEN: You make a home.

REES: I can make a home.

HANSEN: Yeah, wherever. Right.

REES: I'm a mobile unit, yeah.

HANSEN: Yeah. I'd been in Bolivia probably about 7-- 4 or 5 months, I'd been working with this agency, and when-- I'd gone away for a week without a martial law, I was out of-- when I came back, they had stopped doing something that they had agreed with me that they would do. When I went back that first day, it turned out that, you know, they had-- clearly they had stopped it. Well, I was unhappy with that, but I was quiet. When I left that day, I just left. I didn't go around the room and shake everybody's hand. When I came back the next day, they were all, "oh, Arturo, we're so sorry. Oh, we're so sorry that we've offended you." I mean--

REES: Oh my God, and you were just acting like a gringo--

HANSEN: Well, no, I was angry, which is why I--

REES: Oh, you really did it deliberately.

HANSEN: Because previously-- yeah, previously I had always shaken hands with everybody when I came in, shake hands with everybody-- that day I was just angry and I just left. And, they picked up on that.

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: Oh yeah. So the next day, I mean-- and I remember in-- we had a-- an applied anthropology meeting in Yucatan, not the recent one, the one before that.

REES: No, the first one. Yeah, I went-- I was there with Solomon Nahmad--

HANSEN: And, that Sunday, I think it broke up on either Saturday or Sunday, I forget which, but I got the paper, Yucatecan paper from that day, and I was reading it, and here was a story by someone from there about our conference, and it said, "the anthropologists had this big conference here, and the conference broke up today, and they left without saying goodbye."

REES: [gasp]

HANSEN: And I thought, of course, we don't have a plasura.

REES: No, we don't.

HANSEN: We just-- it just leaves, people sort of go off, somebody leaves on Friday and Saturday, and Sunday, we just-- and it's a whimper, it just ends in a whimper, and "they left without saying goodbye."

REES: That is so-- that is so cool. I never-- don't remember that. I mean, I was 02:02:00there. I was talking to one of my-- I think that was probably my first applied meeting, Ted Downing, Tom Weaver was there.

HANSEN: Mmhmm.

REES: I was very impressed. Although some people didn't impress me, because they were applied anthropologists and they were complaining about the hotel, and I thought, "you're an anthropologist, you can deal with hotels," I mean good greif .

HANSEN: There was a conference in Mexico City a long time ago, this is tr--- I think it's AAA.

REES: AAA? Or LASA? LASA was--

HANSEN: No, it was-- it was either AAA or-- it was either-- I think it was AAA. This was a few years ago, probably. And, of course, all the shoeshine boys are on the--

REES: Yeah. Yeah.

HANSEN: -- empty hotel. And it was just some anthropologist talking about, you know, "don't pay them that much."

REES: I know.

HANSEN: And I'm going, "what are you saying?" Here was this kid, who was trying to earn money, you-- you know, "am I going to give him a dime or a nickel?" Hello! Give him a quarter, give him fifty cents, what difference does it make to you?

REES: What difference does it make to you? I know.

HANSEN: But, you know, it's just--

REES: Yeah. Yeah. We're having problems. Okay, now, I have these conclusions.

HANSEN: Okay.

REES: You said, anti-ethnocentrism, at the very beginning, I really liked that phrase, and the other thing you said from the very beginning was-- and you said it again just now, observing the other, but also bringing it back home, in terms of your own self-awareness, I guess. The way you said it, but also applying it to your own self. I think that that's a really nice way of pulling together what you've said, I'm just wondering, do you have more to add about applied or practical anthropology? Where we're going, what we should do next? What's the best part of it? The worst part if it? What do you want to do?

HANSEN: Well, I would think for anthropologists, and the discipline, it's clearly-- it's clear that we're painting ourselves into a corner by-- by emphasizing the navel watching business. Because, we end up critiquing ourselves, and critiquing our ethnographies, critiquing our understanding of other people, which, other people, other disciplines, it means that we don't support ourselves, we're our own worst critics, well then nobody is our own-- is our supporter. But the other issue is to the extent to which anthropologists need to create these multidisciplinary teams, I've worked with multidisciplinary teams now, most of the time I've been an anthropologist.

REES: I love it. I love it. Yeah.

HANSEN: And, it's these other disciplines who often appreciate what we have to 02:05:00offer, but they only appreciate it when we're in work situations with them. Otherwise-- well, otherwise they may have an appreciation, but it's a totally unfounded appreciation, they think you can understand what's going on in anybody else's head, you know, but if you form teams with people in other-- other disciplines to work on something, so you're working with them in something, you can, in fact, make a contribution that they then appreciate.

REES: Yes. Yes.

HANSEN: Well, why don't-- we need to give our students that experience while they're students. When they graduate, they're often going to be working with teams.

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: I mean, that's an approach out there. If they've only been doing lone ranger kinds of anthropology things, we're not training them for--

REES: And teamwork is hard, it's hard to accomplish. And multidisciplinary teamwork is hard.

HANSEN: Much harder.

REES: But it's fun, it's exciting. Yeah.

HANSEN: Yeah. But it would mean, for instance, I mean how-- one of the ways I've had the most success with it is if you teach classes that are topical classes in which you get in students from other disciplines.

REES: Yeah. Yeah.

HANSEN: So you teach something on food security, and you get people in across the board.

REES: That would be great.

HANSEN: If you teach something on refugees and get people in from across the board, then your students work with other students, you can set them up tasks to work together. But if you're going to teach an anthropology class, well, how are they going to get into contact with other students? REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: I mean, you can make it relevant, but students in other disciplines aren't going to see the relevance.

REES: I would say at a small school, like this, that they all mix and match classes, but not at University of Cincinnati, I bet. Thinking about that.

HANSEN: So, like an applied anthropology--But, don't call it applied anthropology, because if you call it applied anthropology, you're only dealing with anthropology students.

REES: That's right.

HANSEN: But suppose you had something on urban poverty, or Hispanic, or Latin-- you know, Latins in Cincinnati.

REES: Mmhmm. That's what I'm going to do, actually, [inaudible]--

HANSEN: Well, see projects about international-- you know, Cincinnati is an international city, so multicultural Cincinnati. Whether it's public health in multicultural Cincinnati, whether it's housing in multicultural Cincinnati.

REES: Well, this one guy is an anthropologist and he does Latinos, he did a big dissertation on Latinos, so he's going to be the health, and I'm going to start doing ethnography, I guess.

HANSEN: Right.

REES: Great.

HANSEN: But if you focus courses-- if you set courses that are these topical courses, you'll get people in from urban affairs, from sociology, from wherever, you'll get students who come in who are Latin, who want to have something about it, people who are interested in Latin America, and first--

REES: [inaudible]

HANSEN: And they'll learn what you had to offer them that they're not getting from their own faculty because of your perspective, and the anthropology students will have a chance to work with other students. It seems like, hello, why don't we do that? And, part of it is, you know, to do heartland anthropology stuff, or you do kinship and social organization, and it only appeals to anthropology students. It's useful to many other people, but it's--

REES: I don't do straight kinship, but I make them do kinship charts of-- like they have to go interview an immigrant and then do a kinship chart.

HANSEN: Oh, I think knowing about kinship is wonderful, but if you have a course called kinship and social organization--

REES: Boring.

HANSEN: Well, and who-- what other discipline is going to think-- what student in any other discipline is going to think that has anything to say to them? REES: No. You're right. You're right. No.

HANSEN: No.

REES: But when I even have them do kinship charts of their own families, or their health histories, or of-- in health, they do a health interview, and then 02:09:00they do a kinship chart, a health kinship chart, like causes of death or diseases in family-- in the family of the woman they're interviewing, or-- I use family tree maker, it is really fun to do that. .

HANSEN: Yeah, and what I've had with students here, we have refugees here, you know, you meet with the immigration groups there, you meet with refugee service agencies there, some in Cincinnati, you bring in those students into classes, or you have your students go out and interview them, people from other cultures, dramatically different cultures.

REES: Yes. Yes.

HANSEN: Oh, they get excited.

REES: Oh, and I do. I have them do that. That's wonderful. It's-- you learn so much. [inaudible].

HANSEN: Yeah.

REES: Great. Okay, well, do you have anything else to add to this very, very-- I want to see it typewritten up. I'm glad I don't have to do it though. I don't like tape recording, it's too much work.

HANSEN: I gave up using tape recorders, because--

REES: Yeah, too much work.

HANSEN: -- two to three to four hours of--

REES: For every hour, yeah. Yeah.

HANSEN: -- I quit-- I couldn't afford it.

REES: Any-- yeah, anything else though that you want to add for the person who's going to be transcribing this? [chuckle]

HANSEN: Transcriber. [chuckle] Oh boy.

REES: Make her work or his work a little bit-- [chuckle]

HANSEN: What I consistently told students, is that I think anthropology is a com game.

REES: I like that.

HANSEN: I get to go to all these places, meet these people who are doing all these fascinating things, and they pay you.

REES: And you get paid for it.

HANSEN: Hello.

REES: Yeah. That's why if you have a topics course, people will come in and find out how much fun it is to be an anthropologist.

HANSEN: Right, what a treat.

REES: Yeah, that's wonderful.

HANSEN: And, I do-- you know, and I'm selling this because it's fun. Anthropology is fun.

REES: It's fun.

HANSEN: Research is fun. Field work-- field work, I mean that is fun.

REES: Yeah. Its work but it is fun.

HANSEN: I mean, I can understand, however, having a 9, soon to be 10-year-old, professional life doing something else--

REES: Yeah.

HANSEN: It's hard to do field work, because they all have their lives. They have 02:11:00their schools, they have their jobs, you know, and so it is difficult to do field work, extended field work when you have a family.

REES: Well, the time when most people do it is when they're in graduate school. That's the time when you learn another language and you learn another culture, if you're lucky, you get to do that.

HANSEN: And so there is this question, for the generational movement of anthropologists, how many anthropologists, the only time they really did anything in field work was when they were grad students? REES: That's right.

HANSEN: And, after that--

REES: Nothing.

HANSEN: A couple weeks here, you know, a summer they revisit a field site.

REES: Because even people, when they go on their sabbatical, they often don't get-- or, get grants.

HANSEN: Yeah. Whereas, I mean, I did four years in field work before I went in Anthropology, two years, really, for the dissertation, since then I've done about six or seven years of field research, but a couple of them have been a 02:12:00couple years, but others have been months, and weeks.

REES: I have a scam going on here where I get every third year I'm in Mexico--

HANSEN: What a treat.

REES: And that-- yeah, so--

HANSEN: What a treat.

REES: -- hey, I like it. Yeah, I like it. Yeah. Well, maybe we should wind this down, but let's bring this chapter of the Art Hansen interview to a close, but tune in next week for the continuing story. [chuckle]

HANSEN: [chuckle]

[End of interview]