Interview with John "Eck" Rose, September 24, 2003

MOYEN: The following is an unrehearsed interview with Mr. John "Eck" Rose. Mr. Rose served in the 28th Senate District in the Kentucky General Assembly. The interview was conducted for the Kentucky Legislature Oral History Project, as a part of the University of Kentucky Oral History Program. The interview was conducted by Eric Moyen on September 24, 2003 in Ashland, Kentucky. It is the first in a series of two interviews. [Pause in tape]. Check. Okay. Check. All right, it's working fine. All right. Okay, I'm here today in Ashland, 00:01:00Kentucky with John "Eck" Rose who served the 28th Senate district.

ROSE: Right.

MOYEN: And also served as the Senate President Pro-tem for a number of sessions. Let me ask you a first question: how did you get Eck?

ROSE: Eck's a nickname. My middle name is, well, it's really Alex, spelled A-L-E-X, but my father, it's an old family name, they pronounced it Alec. And my little brothers and sisters would try to say, "Alec" and end up saying "Eck," and my father always called me Alec after my grandfather.

MOYEN: Okay. Why don't you tell me a little bit about your father, grandfather, your family history? How much do you know about your family history and where they're from?

ROSE: Well, really quite a bit on my father's side. I, I was named after my grandfather who is buried there in Clark County, as my father 00:02:00is, but they came from Wolfe County, and they came from Virginia into Wolfe County. So I can trace my, on the Rose side, I can trace it back many generations, in fact, all the way back to Scotland. And the Roses, at least my set of Roses, basically had always been farmers, and traders, and things like that when they were, once they got here in the United States, so--

MOYEN: When did they immigrate approximately?

ROSE: The first ones came, the three brothers came from Scotland, it was in the, as I recall, and I don't have access to that at this point--

MOYEN: Sure.

ROSE: but it was somewhere in the early 1700's.

MOYEN: Okay. All right. And moving forward a little bit, when were you born? Where were you born?

ROSE: I was born in 1940, June 1, 1940 there in Clark County, Kentucky, where I still live. Live about three miles from where I was born.

MOYEN: Okay. What, what occupation did your father have? ROSE: My father was a farmer, as I say, just about all of my ancestors were, and of course, I still farm, I think it carries over, both of my brothers are still farmers, even though we do some other things we still farm, but he was a farmer and a trader.

MOYEN: Okay. Tell me about what it was like growing up on a farm in the 40's and 50's in the bluegrass area of Kentucky. What was, what were those experiences--

ROSE: Well, you know, looking back at it, I think it was, our bringing up was a little unique in that my father was considered I guess somewhat above average as far as finance is concerned. He'd taken care of his money and bought land and whatever, but we lived very frugally. 00:04:00We didn't spend a lot of money; we didn't take a lot of vacations, and things like that. A big day was to go to the state fair and back in the same day, or to go back to Wolfe County where they were from, maybe and spend the night or whatever, but, and you know, he made us work hard. And I'm grateful that he did because I think it's helped me later on in life, but we grew up there on the farm, had, I mean, we had plenty to eat, plenty of love, it was a great childhood and early adulthood, you know, you always, you always had steak, or country ham, or chicken, or something at every meal, you know, I mean, we ate, we ate the best. But as I say, we didn't, didn't spend a lot of money on toys and things like that, we had farm animals, I had ponies from a very early age, and that evolved into show horses and whatever. So it was little, little bit of a unique childhood.

MOYEN: Were your parents, I guess particularly your dad, the only Rose's to come to Clark County, or did other kin come along?

ROSE: Right. No, he, uh, his sisters, some of them came and wound up there too, but my father, my father's wife had died and his mother, my grandfather's wife, had died, and they came and bought this track of land there in Clark County. Now, later on some of my father's sisters came there, but he didn't have any brothers, living brothers, that lived you know to the age where they would be there. So it's, I don't have any close kin in the Rose family. Now, I have some pretty close kin with the sisters, you know, of course they wouldn't be Roses, but, uh, yeah they came together there in, I think the year was about 1914, I believe it was.

MOYEN: Okay.

ROSE: My father was, another interesting thing, my father was fifty-nine years old when I was born.

MOYEN: Okay.

ROSE: So, you know, I can, and like my father was born in 1880, my grandfather who I'm named after was born in 1984, I mean 1844 was, he was in the Civil War.

MOYEN: So, your grandfather--

ROSE: My grandfather was in the Civil War, so you know, that's something most people couldn't say, you know. Most people's grandfather was born in 1940 or '50 or something, you know.

MOYEN: So, from Wolfe County, Kentucky, what, what side of the war, what side was he on during the Civil War? ROSE: Oh he, we were, we were on the Confederate side.

MOYEN: Okay. Okay.

ROSE: Of course in Kentucky, I think in that area that probably would have been prevalent.

MOYEN: Okay. Did you grow up hearing about that quite a bit? ROSE: No, not really. My father, of course, never talked much about that, and I don't know whether his father talked to him about it or not, but 00:07:00you know, we, he would share some of the things of growing up, like my father did, in the late 1800's, share some of that, and of course I have recollections of that. But you know the thing about it, of course I was twenty, let's see, I guess I was twenty when my father passed away, and at that age, you know, you're just not into asking a lot. Now, if I'd have been thirty or forty, I would have gotten him to share a lot more of those experiences with me than he did, but you know, you don't start thinking about those things until you're, when you're in, when you're a teenager.

MOYEN: Uh-huh. Okay. Why don't you tell me a little bit about your schooling in Clark County? What type of schools did you attend? ROSE: I always attended public schools, all the family did. The grade school was down the road about three or four miles from us. In fact, I live 00:08:00about a mile from it now, from where I went to grade school. So I always went to public schools, went to town there in Winchester in high school, and, uh, you know, we didn't have the opportunity to do a lot of lab work or things like that, this was prior to that, of course some of the schools probably had some of those kinds of things, but it was a very basic education. And then, in fact, I didn't decide to go to college until the year, well, after I graduated from high school, then I enrolled over at Eastern, at Richmond, and finished my college there.

MOYEN: Um-hm. So when you, you said you went to school in Winchester, what was it, Clark County?

ROSE: Clark, oh, Clark County High School. Yes, before consolidation. The schools consolidated, I think, in 19--, about 1961 or -2, and I 00:09:00graduated in 1958.

MOYEN: Okay. Was it a Clark County and then a Winchester city School?

ROSE: Exactly.

MOYEN: Okay.

ROSE: Exactly.

MOYEN: All right. Was the school segregated?

ROSE: The, the integration occurred in my, on my eigh--, in my eighth grade. I think the Brown ruling was 1952, and, uh, or was it '54?

MOYEN: Fifty-four.

ROSE: Fifty-four. 1954. That would have been exactly right, and then, so that, I would have been in the eighth grade at that time.

MOYEN: And did that, in Clark County, was that any problem, or did it happen without much fanfare.

ROSE: No, that's, it wasn't any big deal. We had a, had a black family that lived on our farm, and raised tobacco for us, and had some kids, and one of them passed away just the other day, I was reading the paper, lived in Virginia. But no, that certainly was not a big deal 00:10:00in, in Winchester, Kentucky in 1954, because you were playing with them, with all races the day before, so now you're going to school with all races the next day, so it wasn't any big transition.

MOYEN: Uh-huh. What about the role of religion or church life? Did your family go to church? ROSE: Oh certainly, we, we, I don't guess I ever, unless I was just deathly sick, I don't guess I missed a Sunday from the time I was born and as long as my parents, I was living with my parents, you know.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: When I was eighteen or in college or whatever.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: It was just something that you did, just as automatic as Sunday came.

MOYEN: Right.

ROSE: We went to the Christian Church in my early years, and then attended the Methodist Church at the time my father passed away.

MOYEN: Okay. Was, were those churches in town, or were they small 00:11:00country churches?

ROSE: In town. No we, we always went, went to town for some reason, I don't know, but the only churches we ever attended were, and as I said we did it regularly, were in town.

MOYEN: Okay. I don't know about this, I'm just asking. Winchester had a college for a while, right?

ROSE: Um-hm.

MOYEN: Was that there when you were alive, or was it gone before then?

ROSE: Well, I hope I'm still alive, Eric, I mean (laughs)--

MOYEN: Yeah (laughs). I meant, did it leave before you were ever born?

ROSE: Right. No, Kentucky Wesleyan was there, and I think they must have left and went to Owensboro about, I'm going to guess about '54 or -5. I remember when it happened, and you know how they tried to retain the school, there was a big hoopla about that, but I think it 00:12:00left then, and then shortly after that, which would have been, you know, long before I could have, you know, attended college. And then after that there was a Southeastern Christian College there, and I'm not really sure about how big that was at the time, I knew there were several folks there that would attend classes, and then they would, you know, go on to somewhere else when they, when they had enough, or were ready to do so. And then of course the, now, the Lexington Community College has a branch, campus there. And it's at the same place that Wesleyan College was.

MOYEN: Okay. Did, you said that seemed like a big deal, Winchester trying to retain the school. Was it a big loss as far as you could tell, for the community, or--

ROSE: Oh, I would think so. Again, I wasn't, you know, astute enough at that age to I guess understand the impact of it or whatever, but of course it was, it wasn't like you were losing a public school and a 00:13:00state supported school, even though some state money, of course, goes to private institutions, but Kentucky Wesleyan was a private college. And of course it, it, it really hurts, I assume when that happens, and I know a lot of folks there went to Kentucky Wesleyan, and it brought folks in there that, if they go to school there they stayed there, you know. So higher education and the presence of an institution of higher education is very important for a town. I know this Spring I was traveling in Missoula, Montana, and you was just, we was out in the middle of nowhere, and then all of the sudden, here, here is just, you know, these fine homes, and what on earth is going on here? Well, of course I'd never been that aware of it, I found out the University of Montana was there. So you have all of that activity around a major university, and of course it would have, I'm sure would have benefited 00:14:00Winchester if they could have retained Kentucky Wesleyan.

MOYEN: So, tell me about your decision to go to Eastern?

ROSE: Well, I don't know, my sister had gone there, and I had some friends around there, buddies that were going to go there, and it wasn't, it wasn't one of my more well thought out decisions, it was just because it was close and I was kind of, you know, torn between whether I was going to even do this or not. My father, and to a lesser extent my mother, but they were very unique in that even though my father had had a little bit of college back in the 1800s and my mother was a schoolteacher, of course, and valued education very much, but they were also very big on that they thought if you had ability and whatever, that you could get out here and farm, or trade, or whatever, 00:15:00use your training and use your character and be successful. They didn't see it as important as--so I wasn't, I wasn't pushed to go to college by any means, so this was something I kind of, I didn't know whether I wanted to or not, but I decided to do it, and I thought, "Well here I'll just go over here with my buddies to Eastern." And I went with the intention of, of, uh, spending two years there and then transferring to the University of Kentucky, because at that time Eastern Kentucky College did not offer a major in agriculture. This is what I thought I wanted to major in. So that, but they did have a two year program, and then all the credits were transferable to the University of Kentucky, and you would finish up there. So that's what I went with that intention, and I got over there, and started taking some other courses, and of course you had, you had to have an algebra course in agriculture, and some way or another I lucked up 00:16:00and got an A in that, and I thought, well, while I'm over here I'll just take another, I'll take Algebra II. And I took that, and then, so then I thought, well, I'll take analytical geometry. So then I, at that point, I'd said, well, I want to be an agricultural engineer, and then I'll transfer, and doing pretty good in this math deal, and I'll transfer to UK and get a degree in agricultural engineering, and I don't know, at some point I decided, well, I'll just stay at Eastern and get a degree in mathematics. And that's the way it worked out.

MOYEN: Um-hm. So, when you decided to enroll, do you recall, was there much of an application process, or did you just kind of show up and say, "I want to enroll for the Fall semester," or--

ROSE: Yeah, back then Eric, there wasn't, as I recall, now maybe I've forgotten, this has been quite a while now, but as I recall, there, the 00:17:00requirements were not that great. In fact, I think at one point if you had a high school diploma, they, and were a resident of Kentucky that they had to admit you. I believe that's true. But no, it wasn't, it wasn't a big deal about getting in, you know.

MOYEN: Um-hm. And you did live in Richmond? Did you decide--

ROSE: Well yeah, I spent the first, uh, I think the first two years, and I finally got to commuting as I got more involved in farming and my horses and whatever, I started commuting, but the first two years I was, I was either on campus in a dormitory or lived in an apartment out in town.

MOYEN: Um-hm. It seems like farming was pretty important, obviously. How large of a farm did you all have?

ROSE: Well that, that farming was engrained in me, but my father had 550 acres there in Clark County, and then we had another farm, as I told 00:18:00you, back in Shelby County that I ended up going down there and running after, after I left, well after I got out of college. So, and one of the reasons that I started staying at home and commuting was my brother was in the, uh, in the Army Reserve, and was called up for active duty back then, I've forgotten what crisis that was, but he was called up, it was about the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis, so he was called up before Chaffey(??) and he, he had since, I think he went to college a semester or two, but he came back and was farming full time. So, when he was called up, then I had to devote time to running this 550 acre farm as well as going to school full-time.

MOYEN: Okay. And when you graduated and decided to go to Shelby County, tell me a little bit about that. How long did you stay there, and--

ROSE: I was down there three years. My father had passed away in, in 1960, and I graduated from college, well, I think I had 140 or 50 hours, because I changed my major so many times, I had to spend another semester to get enough together where that would qualify for a degree, but I think I got out in January of '63 and moved down there, and this was a dairy farm, a 581 acre dairy farm, and so at the age of twenty-two, I was running that farm, and owed, what I thought at that time was a tremendously large amount of money, because I was farming on a share basis, a tenant basis. I was, of course I had my little share as far as the family was concerned, but then I was doing it on a 50/50 tenant basis with the family, so I think I owed like $45,000 in 1963, 00:20:00which was a bunch of money, you know, and here was a kid down there, and practically knew no one when I went down there to run that farm in that area. And then in 1966, why we divided the farms up, my mother of course was still living, and so I got a hundred and some acres there in Clark County and moved back to Clark County and, and uh, started farming again. And got caught up in school teaching one year, there was, at that time, everybody with a math degree was being recruited by IBM, which was real close there, and the, one of the math teachers there at the high school had left right in the summertime, right prior to the opening of the school year to take a job with IBM, so the local 00:21:00people around there, the superintendent who I'd known all my life, and friends with one of his sons, and principal and whatever, knew I had this math degree, and they couldn't find anybody, so they kept calling me and telling me they wanted me to come up and teach high school algebra and geometry, and I finally agreed to do that, and of course it was very confining, and after being out of, when you're in college, you're used to being confined and having to study and go to class, or whatever, but I'd been out in the wide open spaces for three years there in Shelby County, and then tried to come back into a classroom and teach, and it was just too confining for me, so I finished out my contract that year, and that was my, my experience as a, as a teacher.

MOYEN: And what grade was this?

ROSE: I was teaching high school, was teaching Algebra I and II and plane geometry.

MOYEN: Okay.

ROSE: I was able to dictate, because they needed somebody so bad, I was 00:22:00able to dictate pretty much what I would be willing to do, and for the most part had the, had the classes that had the higher math aptitude, and so it was a real good experience, and still to this day it's one of the most rewarding things I ever did. I still have people, to this day, that, doesn't happen very often, but every now and then one will come up and say, and still call me Mr. Rose, even though at this point I'm, I'm just, you know, five or six or seven years older than them, because I was real young, and say, "You're the best teacher I ever had," or something like that, and you know, with all the things that happen in your life, you remember certain things that are important to you, and to think that somebody still thinks you were a good teacher is very rewarding.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: So, I'm glad I did that.

MOYEN: Um-hm. So all of these different experiences that you've had in your first quarter century or so, when, or what else, or what 00:23:00involvement was there in developing an interest in politics. Can you see anything back then? I mean, did you talk about it around the dinner table, or was it in college, or who really influenced you in that regard? ROSE: Well, my father, even though he was smart enough to never run for anything himself, he was always involved in politics on a local basis there. He'd always have his candidate for sheriff, which at that time was the most, uh, desired office in town, you know, uh, and he was always involved in those local races, and would get involved, sometimes in governor's races and whatever. In fact, I had a, I had an uncle on my mother's side that was a state senator, Dr. J. C. Coldiron. He was an M.D. and a state senator, and he ran for lieutenant governor, 00:24:00I think in 1952. So there was always a little bit of a tie-in there with political ----------(??), but I guess, I guess I didn't really seriously think that much about politics as far as running myself until I was more into my twenties, late twenties, whatever, and I got, I got to thinking, well, that's be a neat thing to do, and of course I also wanted to keep doing these other things that I'd done all my life. I didn't want to get into something that was full-time such as running for local office, county judge or sheriff or something like that. I wanted, I wanted my farms and my auction business, and, that I was doing at that point, so the most appealing thing was, to me, would be to serve in the General Assembly, which was a part-time position.

MOYEN: Okay. Now, you mentioned your auction business.

ROSE: Um-hm.

MOYEN: When did you get into other endeavors besides farming after your teaching? How did they--

ROSE: Well I was always, Eric, I was always doing something, something else, and I think that's, I don't know, probably, probably wasn't a positive thing, because I often thought if I would have concentrated on one thing and gave that my total attention that I might have been better off, but to me that was a little boring, I want to have three or four things going on, like I do now, got this car dealership, I've got my farms, I've still got my auction business, you know. I've always got to have three or four things going. But when I, the year I finished, when I finished teaching that year, then I started selling insurance, life insurance, and then we got into property and casualty insurance, and then at that point I started doing a few auctions, and, and over a period of two or three years then, the insurance thing just fell by the wayside, and so I've been in the auction business 00:26:00basically, you know, for the last, I guess thirty-seven years.

MOYEN: All right, so when did you, you talked about in your late twenties getting interested in politics.

ROSE: Um-hm.

MOYEN: When did this become a serious consideration?

ROSE: Well, I think in the late twenties it became a serious consideration, and, oh, I had a close friend that was a state representative, and had a close friend that was the state senator. The first time I was eligible to run, you have to be thirty or older to run for the state Senate, so the first time, this good friend of mine was state senator, so I would not run against him.

MOYEN: Who was that?

ROSE: B. E. Billings.

MOYEN: Okay.

ROSE: From Stanton. Well, this person from Lee County, Walter Strong 00:27:00beat him in 1973, beat my good friend in 1973, and so this opened the door for me to run in 1977. The first, first time I'd ever ran for anything, and ran for the state Senate there in 1977, and--

MOYEN: And who did you say beat your friend? And then I assume--

ROSE: Walter Strong.

MOYEN: you ran against him.

ROSE: Yeah, he was a minister from Lee County, Walter Strong, he was TV evangelist and whatever, and B. E. Billings from Stanton was the senator.

MOYEN: Okay.

ROSE: He, Strong beat him, and then I beat Strong.

MOYEN: Okay. So after 1973, did you know then, "I'm going to run for this the next time around?"

ROSE: Oh, not for certain. I mean, if, I'm a person that doesn't just say, "I'm going to do so and so and come hell or high water try to do 00:28:00it." You know, I try to look for opportunities, I always try to have a back-up plan or some other interest, and if something doesn't happen or something doesn't evolve like I want it to, to where it's no big deal you know. Like if I'd have won for governor in 1995, that would have been fine; I think I would have made a good governor. But I didn't win, and so I just go on and do something else, you know. So, but I think I knew, probably, in 1973 that if all the conditions were right that I would run in 1977.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: And as I approached 1977, it seemed like they were right, so I ran. But it's not like something, none of my political career is, was like something I had to do.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: It just, it just happened, I, uh, if an opportunity was there, I 00:29:00seized it, if it wasn't there, I did something else.

MOYEN: Um-hm, um-hm. So tell me about what it was like actually campaigning once you did decide to run?

ROSE: Well that, that was relatively easy for me, because at that point I'd been, let's see at that point I was like thirty-six years old, I had, I had been in the auction business for quite a few years, which entails getting up before a crowd and conducting an auction, talking some, you know whatever, had been a tobacco auctioneer at that point since 1971, and so it, it came relatively easy, the campaigning. The thing that was a little bit difficult, and I had, had to kind of, I 00:30:00guess if I didn't know what I was talking about just be quiet, that's always the best thing, you know, but I had no governmental experience of any, at any level.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: You know, most people, before they get to be a state senator, or even attempt to run for the state Senate, they have been a magistrate or a city commissioner, or a county official, and they have some, some basic knowledge of the way government works, and of course I was totally lacking in that. But the campaigning was fine, it was fun. I never did look forward to campaigning. I can't really say it's something I like to do or love to do or whatever, but at the same time, once I got into it, it was not any problem. I always, I always enjoyed it at the time. Right now you'd about have to take me to jail before I would run for something, but if I were to some way or another run for something, it would be a positive experience, you know. So the campaigning was no problem, and I had a lot of, lot of contacts, 00:31:00you know, when I got into that race, nobody gave me much of a chance, but they didn't fully understand all the contacts that I had in these seven counties. I'd been auctioning tobacco, as I said, and we had a rather big warehouse there in Winchester, and we were selling tobacco for people in all those seven counties, and it turned out they were very loyal, it was a built-in organization to go into each county and get some people talking for you and get your organization going. Same time I'd been showing horses, walking horses for a long time, and had people in all those counties that I knew. So even though some people discounted my chances at the first, I had a lot more contacts than they were aware of.

MOYEN: So your contacts were well beyond simply Clark County.

ROSE: Oh yes. Yeah. I wouldn't have attempted to do that. If all, if it had just been Clark County and been dependent upon that base 00:32:00there, and that's all I, I certainly wouldn't have attempted to do it, because, as I say, I knew people in all of these counties and was able to use that. In fact, I did very little campaigning in Clark County in that first election. In fact, in all my elections, all, every time I ran for anything, whether it was state Senate or governor or whatever, I didn't campaign much there because I figured the people would allow me the, the ability or the right to go out where I wasn't known. They knew who I was, they were going to be for me, or against me, and whatever. So I spent, in that first election, I spent just about all my time in, well, basically three or four counties, because I came by the campaign strategy that I knew I would do, or thought I would do, in Clark County without campaigning much and what vote I could get there, and then I knew if I could hold my opponent to a certain level in three or four other key counties that I could win, so that was my strategy.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: So I spent most of my time in those three or four counties: Bath, and Bath, and Montgomery, and Fleming, and Powell, once I, no, I take it back, didn't concentrate on Fleming the first time, it was Bath, Montgomery, and Powell was the ones I concentrated on.

MOYEN: Okay. When you talk about your strategy and having contact points there, when you campaigned, was it primarily at the gatherings? Did you, I know obviously the Senate is a little different, but did you do any official kind of door to dooring type things, or how did you go about campaigning?

ROSE: Oh I would try to get somewhere where there was a crowd.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: You know, unless you've got a really confined, small base of people that you're trying to get elected from, door to door is a very inefficient way of going. Now that's mostly in, of course you in this 00:34:00governor's race here in 2003, you're going to see them going door to door, but that's all for the press, that's all for the media, that's for the TV to show them going door to door, you can't, and at that time I had seven counties, you can't live long enough to even with those hundred thousand people at that point, you won't live long enough to knock on every door and ask them for votes. So you know, that's a fill- in, it's, the best thing about that is that people see you're enthused, you want the position or whatever, but the, and that's the reason it's important, like if you were in a county let's say like Fleming, and you know, it's not important that you go to each little old place in there, you don't have to spend a lot of time in Ewing, Kentucky, it's a little town in Fleming County, but if you go in there and go to two or three stores, and then the word gets around, "Well, Rose was by 00:35:00here today, seemed like a pretty good kind of fellow, you know, and he farms," and whatever, and they get to talking with them, he tells his neighbor, "They said that Rose boy was up there," you know. So that kind of thing, it kind of feeds on itself. But my deal was to, uh, and I basically spent my own money in that first campaign, was to be in the media, particularly those weekly papers, and then to just make appearances every time I could find a crowd to gather where I could go in and see more than one or two people without going door to door.

MOYEN: Uh-huh, uh-huh. Was that the way that you campaigned, in terms of spending money with, in papers? Did you do any radio? Or--

ROSE: We, we did radio, and of course at that time the TV wasn't a big deal in the state Senate race, it's got so now that quite a few of them use that, but I use the, use the papers and the radio, of course, yard signs, posters, and stores, and--

MOYEN: Let me ask you this, you talk about the different counties that you served. Seems to me there's some difference in, you know, I'm not trying to answer your question for you, but difference in Clark County that's up there near Fayette County large horse farm type area, and then, say, Powell County where--

ROSE: Right.

MOYEN: it's definitely more mountain folks. How do you address that? ROSE: Yeah, I know what you're, yeah, I know what you're asking, and I used to, and you're exactly right, but I used to tell people that I had one of the most diverse districts in the state as far as the senatorial district is concerned, because yes you're going, you're coming from, oh, seven or eight miles from the University of Kentucky, all the way, at that point, in Lee County up above Beattyville or, and then you have, you had the counties like Estill and Powell, which are outer bluegrass at the best, you know, and some folks would think eastern Kentucky, 00:37:00and then of course you've got Clark and Montgomery that were, that were basically on the suburbs of Fayette County, and then of course, Fleming County is more kin to the northeastern area, well like the area our car dealership is in now here in Ashland, you know, it's more attune to Cincinnati, and those kinds of things. So it was very diverse, but I, I addressed that by looking at it from, that standpoint, and knowing that was the case, and, uh, at that level, at the Senate level, then you know, I can basically identify with all of those people.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: I was a college graduate; I was a schoolteacher; I had an interest in higher education. Same time, I raised tobacco. I showed horses, you know. I hunted, I fished, I farmed, you know. So I think I, and 00:38:00I think that was part of my success, is that regardless of the crowd I was in, they could at some level identify with me.

MOYEN: Um-hm. So beyond your original race, or your original campaign, and including all the different campaigns that you've had, would you have to put on a different persona? Not that you're lying because you said you'd do all these different things, but when you go different places are you here in blue jeans and whatever, and then in a three piece suit at other times? Is that all part of it, or--

ROSE: Well, you certainly have to dress for the occasion if it's appropriate. But of course what catches you a lot of times is that one, one function would be a certain way, and then you might have to leave and go to another one that the dress was entirely, entirely different, but what I always tried to do, and it wasn't an effort 00:39:00because I think that's the way I've always been, I, I don't try to impress people. I want to know, if I'm with you, I want to talk to you, I want to know what you're about and whatever, and I want to talk whatever you want to talk about. And I had a real good friend, I won't name names, that was in the state Senate, and was a great senator, but he was a poor campaigner because every time he ran into somebody on the street, he wanted to tell them about something that he wanted to talk to them about, something that could be very abstract, something the person didn't have any interest in, whatever. And you can't get elected doing that. If they want to talk about farming, you talk about farming. If they want to talk about higher education, you talk about higher education; want to talk about UK basketball, you talk about UK 00:40:00basketball. So that is the way you handle that, as far as being able to have people of all walks of life identify with you.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: Is don't, don't think you're the, you've got the answer to everything, don't think you know everything, don't think you know what they need to know. Let them, there'll be plenty of times later on in your career, and in your, during your term of office that you can teach and instruct them, you know. If you're campaigning, you let them dictate how the, how the campaigning is going to go.

MOYEN: How did you articulate your political philosophy, or in retrospect, did you have a political philosophy before you've ever been to Frankfort, and has it changed overtime? What would that be now? ROSE: Well, I really seriously doubt, at least I don't think it's changed at all from the time I entered politics, and I'm one of a 00:41:00kind, you know, there's no party, or no persuasion that, that I think is out there that they would say, "Well this is where Rose belongs." I'm very liberal in some respects, liberal that I believe there are unfortunate people out here that need help, I believe that's the reason for government, is so that government can afford them the opportunity to help themselves. So I've, I've been for some things that ordinarily a conservative person, as I consider myself conservative, would not be for. I'm a big believer in education. I believe that's where government's money should be going. I don't believe government has any role in building golf courses or monuments to people. I think it 00:42:00ought to be in education and rural water and things that give those people the chance to have skill that are marketable that then can afford them the opportunity to go play golf, and have the money to go play golf. I am a person that is very pro-gun, I believe that that's a right we were given in the Constitution, we ought to be able to do that. On the other hand, and this is where I say it's very hard to peg me, you say, "Well, you're sounding like a Republican." Well I'm not, because I am pro-choice. I don't think that government can dictate what a woman can do with her body, mainly because government doesn't know what to do with that person after they convict them of a crime, 00:43:00which the only crime it can be is pre-meditated murder. Now what are you going to do, you know? It's not assault, or whatever. If it's a crime, if government's involved in it, the only way government can be involved in it is to make it a crime, it's pre-meditated murder. So then if you believe, as I do, that's why I say, you know, I don't fit in with a lot, I believe in capital punishment. So I believe if you, if you believe it's okay to take one's, someone's life if they have done something that's against society and fits a certain pattern, and fits into the criteria that calls for capital punishment. So with regard to abortion, if you believe in capital punishment, then you've got to put to death that mother, that doctor, whoever handed them a scalpel, whoever admitted them into the hospital or the clinic or whatever. So whether you believe, whether you believe in abortion or 00:44:00don't believe in abortion, that's not the issue. The issue is what is government going to do about it. So, you know, my political philosophy is, I guess, with some people, to be all over the board. I believe in, I believe in keeping taxes as low as possible; I believe in having a pro-business environment. So now I'm sounding back like a Republican again, you know. I believe that, I believe you have to give businesses the opportunity to function there and provide jobs and whatever. At the same time, poor and downtrodden people that the legislature, or government has not afforded them the chance for an education or whatever, I believe you've got to look after them.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Okay.

ROSE: So I don't know what I am. I don't know whether I'm a liberal, a conservative, or whatever. These are, and these were not things that evolved with me during the course of the twenty-one years I was in the 00:45:00state Senate. This is basically what I believed in 1977; it's what I believe in 2003.

MOYEN: Um-hm, okay.

[End of Tape 1, Side 1]

[Begin Tape 1, Side 2]

MOYEN: All right, we were talking about your political philosophy in 00:47:00general, let me ask you this about your political philosophy.

ROSE: Um-hm.

MOYEN: How do you balance serving the interests of your district versus serving the interests of the entire state?

ROSE: Well, that's certainly a good question, and, uh, you know, I guess basically what I always believed, that if I can create the right kind of environment in Kentucky for opportunity for people, then the local people there should be able to seize upon that and should be able to prosper, and if they're not, if we don't have it in Kentucky, then any, any progress we make locally is going to be short-lived because the environment is not there. Now, I used to get criticized a lot, not a lot but some, because I didn't, every session I didn't try to 00:48:00bring home some big project or whatever. All I ever thought that Clark County, and Bath County, and Montgomery County, and Fleming County, Powell County, all those counties deserved was what they were entitled to with what was available. And I never did try to use my position to bring home a bunch of projects that would help me get re-elected or something like that. I believe ultimately, ultimately, to answer your question, is that the interests of the individual, or the interests of the county, or the interests locally, should and will ultimately be the same as the interests state-wide. So I always try to have, even before I got to be president of the Senate, I tried to have a statewide perspective of what we need to do and where we need to go. Because, 00:49:00you know, as I used to, when I would go, when I was campaigning for governor, go to Louisville and they would complain about they weren't getting their share, or whatever. They sent very, I don't know what the figures were, but just throw out, they sent thirty-eight percent of the taxes to Frankfort and they got back thirty-one percent of the projects. And I used to tell them, "Look, if you don't start insisting that that money that goes to eastern Kentucky or wherever it goes, if you don't start insisting that that's spent on education instead of golf courses or whatever, then the figure is going to be, in a few years, it's going to be forty-two percent of the money coming from Jefferson County and twenty-eight percent of it coming back in, you know.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: And the same, the same thing when I was in eastern Kentucky, I tried to make them see that they need to spend this money on infrastructure, and on raising the market skills and the education 00:50:00level of their people in that populous if they were going to ever share and be able to get, get what they needed to get out of our economy.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: So I'm not real sure. I know you're, I know what you're asking, it's a dilemma, but to me over the long term, the interest locally should and will be the same as the interest state-wide.

MOYEN: Um-hm. You talked about taking criticism for not necessarily bringing the pork home to your district. Was that difficult at all to see others attempting to, and often succeeding at that, and then saying, "Well, if they're going to put this writer on," or "they're going to do that for their district, I should really do the same." Or was that kind of a non-issue for you?

ROSE: Well for ten years, Eric, and I think most people you would talk 00:51:00to would bear it out, that the ten years I was president of the Senate, there wasn't anybody in the Senate doing any pork stuff. We pretty much had it going the way it was supposed to go. You were entitled to something, you got it. If there was a need there, you got it. But there was very little of, of the pork things. Very little. And I think, as I say, if you talk to other people, it would bear that out, that that's the way we did it. Now, it finally, it came unglued there with the coup that they did on me in 1997, and that was a part of what precipitated out, was some of them weren't getting, weren't getting these projects funded that wanted them funded, and along with some other factors, but that was part of that--

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: that.

MOYEN: All right. Let's get back to, this started with your political philosophy at the time you ran.

ROSE: Um-hm.

MOYEN: So how much did you win by in your first election, do you recall? ROSE: It was pretty good at that time. I think the percentage was like fifty-three something to forty-six something, 1,600 and some votes. It was quite a shocker, because nobody expected me to win--oh, I had some local people there that did, or some people knew that, but statewide, it was a big shock.

MOYEN: Can you describe what that's like, where you were waiting for returns from these districts to come in?

ROSE: Yeah, I was there at the tobacco warehouse that I owned at that time, and as I say, being a mathematician, I had the same, at least in my own mind, figured out what I needed to do, and when the results came in in Clark County, and, which was one of the first ones counted because they had probably better access to get them in and whatever, 00:53:00but I think I carried it 2,400 votes or something, Clark County. And then when one or two of those other counties came in that I was concentrating on, and those, even though I didn't carry, let's see, I didn't carry, uh, I didn't carry Montgomery County but it was close enough that I felt like at that time I was going to be elected. I mean it's a good feeling. Its, but it wasn't, you know, I felt like I was going to win, even from the day I announced, because the, my opponent-- I lived in a county that was going to vote sixty some hundred Democratic votes. He lived in a county that was going to vote maybe seven or eight hundred Democratic votes, so, you know, the odds were in my favor.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: Now, I have done some things in, politically, and got into some 00:54:00things such as the governor's race that didn't make a lot of sense, that didn't, you know, maybe at the time because I ran for such a short period of time, when everybody else had been running for four years, eight years, twelve years, or whatever, maybe that didn't, that didn't make a lot of sense to do that, but that was done on principle and to, to try to raise some issues, which it did, and you know I think by and large, without getting, being overly critical, I think, I think some of the issues I raised in '95, and some of the things I said, and principles that I ran on, I think I've been vindicated with regard to what's unfold since that time. But back then, to get back to my original point, it didn't surprise me. I expected to win. I don't know that I would have been devastated if I hadn't, there in 1977, but 00:55:00I fully expected to win.

MOYEN: Um-hm. What, when you were campaigning, what did you tell your constituents, "This is what I want to do when I go to Frankfort," or "this is what hasn't been done in the last four years."

MOYEN: I didn't do a lot of that. The, my opponent gave me the best, I think, campaign issue that a legislator could have, or prospective legislator, one that wants to win, in that most of his ads were a picture of him standing beside Julian Carroll, who was the governor at that time, and of course Governor Carroll had promised, he endorsed all incumbent Democrats, that was his statement, "I endorse all incumbent Democrats." So there he was with his arm around him, and there would be these big ads in the local papers, saying, "I need Senator Strong 00:56:00back to Frankfort to help me," you know. And of course I used, I seized upon that, I saw I wasn't going to get any favors from the state Democratic Party or from the governor, whatever, so my whole deal was, and again, I had enough business background that people, I mean, I think they trusted me, the people that knew me, that I'd be able to get done things for the district or whatever. So my big deal was, well, here's this picture of the governor telling y'all who he wants as a senator. I said, "Are you going to let the governor pick the senator for you, or are you going to elect somebody that you, will represent you? Now, he says he's going to represent the governor. I want to represent you." And you know, I think for the most part, and this is no reflection on Governor Carroll, because I think, I think they will vote for people at that level, but I don't think they want you or me, 00:57:00if we are, if we are in a public, if we're a public official, I don't think they want us trying to dictate to them who needs to serve in this other office. I remember one time Governor Brown was trying to get me to vote for something, and he said, I forget what it was now, you know, he said, "Eck," said, "I'll tell you what, if you vote for this, then I'll come and campaign for you." I said, "Well, Governor, you know, I appreciate your offer and know you're sincere, but the best thing you can do for me when I run again, is to stay out of it. Now if you have to, and I know you're a popular governor, but," I said, "if you have to be for me or against me, I'm going to ask you to be against me," because it just doesn't work. You see, it was a great, it was a great issue for me. So it wasn't like I had to identify, I had to identify, had to identify issues or things that hadn't been done for the district, to get back to your question of things that need to be 00:58:00done, or whatever. I had that issue and I just played it to the hilt, and I think that was the most important issue in that first race. And the incumbent, Senator Strong, never did back up from that. He fully believed that the governor could, could elect him. And of course in 1990 I guess it was, when I ran for re-election, and Governor Wilkinson at that point, because of the contentious relationship that we had, he solicited the candidate to run against the--it was the same old issue that had surfaced thirteen years ago: well, you know, the governor wants his own senator; I've tried to be your senator.

MOYEN: Uh-huh.

ROSE: So it was a good issue. But, and you know back then, I don't know that, I don't know that campaigns were as issue-oriented anyway as they 00:59:00are now, and I don't know how much they are now. I know they put out these platforms and issue papers and whatever, but I think people still basically vote for somebody based upon how they feel about them, how they relate to them, because you know, let's face it, most people in, that get elected have promised twenty times more than they can do. And I believe the, and of course there's a certain amount of voters out here that want you to tell them something that's not going to happen. You tell them the truth they won't vote for you at all, but I, I just don't know how much, how much people are inclined to believe all the promises, that voters are inclined to believe all the promises that are made.

MOYEN: Um-hm. So once you had solidified your election, who was the 01:00:00first politician, Frankfort politician to call you or talk to you?

ROSE: Oh I, I think Governor Carroll called the next day or something, and delighted that I won, you know, and this kind of thing, which is standard stuff you know, but I guess at that point I was probably, probably thought all this stuff was pretty heady, but looking back at it I realized that all good public officials at a high level, and again I never did get into that much, but they call every winner you know and congratulate them, and I guess I was impressed at that point. Looking back at it, I probably wouldn't have been.

MOYEN: Um-hm. So, when, when you first went to Frankfort to serve, what was, what was that like? What was as you thought it might be, and what 01:01:00was wildly different?

ROSE: Yeah. I don't know. Of course, the last time, and this tells you a little bit about me personally, but I went to, with my, with a class one time, and I'm not real sure what year that was, what grade I was in, but I went to the Kentucky General Assembly when I was in grade school, when it was, and then I went one time, because my father had a friend that was a state representative, and I can just barely remember being up in the balcony there when the session was going on, don't remember much about it, but the next time that I set my foot in the capitol, I was an elected state senator. I had not been, from that point on.

MOYEN: That's got to be pretty rare.

ROSE: It's got to be pretty rare. And I can tell you something probably even more rare, I spent twenty-one years there, I left in January of 1998, or I guess it was '99. Ninety-nine, January of 1999. It is now September of 2003, and my foot has not stepped back in the capitol again.

MOYEN: So you're not lobbying.

ROSE: I'm not lobbying, it was just like closing a book up, leaving, and that's the end of it, and unless I contact somebody like you, or you contact me, or bring some of this stuff up, I go two or three weeks, maybe two months without remembering I was there, you know, it's, I'm glad I did it, it was a positive experience, now it's time for new things and new challenges.

MOYEN: Um-hm. So when you did get there, having had all that time, what 01:03:00were your thoughts or impressions? ROSE: Oh I was pretty impressed. You know, I'd been, of course, following politics and meeting some of these people that I'd read about, again, to get back to what I talked to you about earlier, I was, I was a little bit intimidated. A lot of people would never believe that that word came from my mouth, that I was, but I was. Now maybe I didn't show it, but I was a little bit, because I, as I told you before, I didn't have this prior experience of how government works; how's it function? You know, I just had none of that. All I could, all I had was maybe some, some knowledge with us in school about how it's supposed to function, how it's supposed to work or whatever. So for the first year or two, you know, I was congenial 01:04:00to everybody, avoided the press, you ever heard of a politician that avoided the press?

MOYEN: Why was that?

ROSE: Because I was afraid I would say something wrong that would blow my career.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: So, I didn't know what I was talking about, so why open my mouth and let everybody know, you know. But I basically sat back there, and Wendell Ford gave me some advice. This was, I had never started serving, this was sometime between May of '77, I didn't have any general election opposition, so it was sometime between May of '77 and January of '78, I talked with him and we simply, we seemed to from the outset have a rapport with one another, and got ready to walk away, said, "Rose," I said, "yes sir." He said, "Let me give you some advice." He said, "When you get to Frankfort," he said, "you get you a 01:05:00seat in the back of the room and keep your mouth shut," and said, "at some point they'll come looking for you." And that basically was my philosophy. I mean, they didn't even know I could talk for a session or two, you know, and probably still can't, but I was very low key and whatever, and developed relationships with other senators, but wasn't, I think I had one little old innocuous bill my first session, wasn't out there trying to, trying to conquer the world or whatever early on. So I guess I was a little bit in awe of it. Reminds me of the story that heard one of them tell and said he first got to the legislature and he looked around at old these marble halls, and all these people he'd read and heard about, and those statues down in the rotunda and whatever, and he said he thought to himself, "How on earth did I 01:06:00get here? Little old country boy and here I am in the state Senate." Said, "I sat around there for a month or two and didn't say much, and listened to everybody else," and said, "I had a transformation. Instead of wondering about how I got there," said, "I started wondering about how some of them got there" (Moyen laughs).

MOYEN: That's pretty good; I like that. So you did follow Governor Ford's advice.

ROSE: Yes.

MOYEN: And, and you feel like that served you quite well.

ROSE: Oh, I think so. I think so. I didn't know what I was doing, so, but I came across as being thoughtful and trying to learn, you know.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: But yeah, I think that served me well, and you know, I never did any point and still don't today whether it's in business here or wherever, I've never been into trying to show somebody else up just for 01:07:00the sake of showing them up, and you know, some of the other senators there that wanted to impress somebody. Well it's always been my experience when you try to impress, you do just exactly the opposite, you know.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: So I just took my time and, and was fortunate enough to keep doing the constituent things that I should have been doing, and attending the, even though I never was the world's best on attending functions in the district, I attended enough that I didn't have any opposition four years later.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: So that further gave me more tenure and solidified my position there a little, and got to be chairman of the transportation cabinet, and so I was very low-key when I went in, and didn't make any waves.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Could you tell me a little bit about, I assume before you went to Frankfort you went to Kentucky Dam.

ROSE: Yeah, um-hm.

MOYEN: What goes on there? What type of decisions are made? Especially I guess, as we will talk about legislative independence, you might be able to contrast your very first session with what goes on when John Y. Brown, but--

ROSE: Right.

MOYEN: can you tell me about what it's like down there? ROSE: Well, that was just the one time, of course, that I was there, and that was, that was in the Fall of '77, and at that point, you had, you had legislators like John Berry, and Lowell Hughes, and Bill Sullivan in the Senate, and people like that that were bucking the leadership of the governor over the existing leadership. And of course both groups were according me, because as it turned out, it wasn't really that close but it was fairly close, they were trying to get me to support their side, you know. And of course with, I just, I told you about the 01:09:00governor was for my opponent, and the incumbent state senator, so I had no allegiance whatsoever, he didn't, he often turned his hand to help me. So I guess they felt like that, that it would be an opportune time for them to get another vote, because here's a person that's not close to the governor. Of course, at the same time the governor, as I told you, he called me the next morning, or shortly thereafter and told me he was delighted I won, looked forward to working with me and whatever. So it was, but it was basically, I've heard about the wild parties or whatever, I wasn't in on any of them there, but they did, the old ones had them out somewhere, I don't know where the parties were, and all the drinking and whatever happened, but I, it wasn't there in the fall of '77, but it was just basically not unlike what happened up 01:10:00in, happens up in Room 327 when the Democratic caucus used to meet in private prior to '97 and select leadership, you know, just, just go in there and voting by, by secret ballot about who you're for for those leadership positions. Now, I think there was some orientation there at Kentucky Dam Village of new legislators, I'm sure they had some committee meetings, maybe something was already in place, and just like there's orientation now in Frankfort. And of course the, after the, all of some of the negative things that happened with the legislature as far as convictions and indictments and whatever, and it was more, they tried to move most of that stuff back to Frankfort, you know, and expose it to the press and anything else.

MOYEN: Before you went to Kentucky Dam Village, and you did have this long tenure between your election and then actual service--

ROSE: Um-hm.

MOYEN: did you start talking with other legislators about what committees you wanted to be on, or did you pretty much expect that when you went down to Kentucky Dam Village they're going to tell you, "Here's where you belong"?

ROSE: Yeah. I, no, I didn't start, it was unlike what happens, or did happen after I got to be president of the Senate, but immediately they were, you were calling them and they were telling you what they were interested in, what they'd like to be on, whatever. As I recall at that point, I did no lobbying to get certain committees or whatever, I don't remember doing that.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: I knew, I knew as a freshman senator that I wasn't going to be chairman of something, so there wasn't use asking for something like 01:12:00that, and also knew that I had a lot to learn in most areas, with exception maybe of agriculture or the auction business or whatever. So any place I was put was going to be beneficial, and even later on after I'd been in the Senate a while, I enjoyed serving on committees that I hadn't before. Like one time I got punished for not committing to, to the present leadership quick enough, and they put me on Judiciary Civil, had two, had civil and the court part that, no they had Judiciary Civil and Judiciary Criminal, that's what it was, committees, and they put me on Judiciary Civil, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. In fact, I developed a little relationship there with, with enough people 01:13:00on that committee to where I could effectively block what the chairman of the committee wanted to do.

MOYEN: Uh-huh.

ROSE: So you know those, you think you're being punished or whatever, so--but any tie there's a problem, there's an opportunity, you know, and so, but I don't recall lobbying for to be on committees or whatever, I just--and I was pretty much of a loner during that period. I think I, they put me on some kind of little old special committee after I got elected on something, don't even remember what that was about now, but I made an appearance or two there in Frankfort.

MOYEN: Now, why did you say that you got punished and put on that committee?

ROSE: Because I didn't, because I didn't agree to support the people that were in leadership as quickly as they thought I should have.

MOYEN: Okay. Was this early on?

ROSE: Yeah, this, no, this was about. oh, I guess this would have been about 19--, I don't know, '80 or something. '81 or -2 or whatever.

MOYEN: Okay.

ROSE: Somewhere along those lines.

MOYEN: So how would you describe the Senate leadership, you know, Joe Prather and Joe Wright, when you got there, how would you describe--

ROSE: Well, of course Joe Wright was, Joe Wright was not in leadership when I got there; Joe Prather was. Joe Prather was, was the president pro-tem of the Senate. Tom Garrett was the majority leader, Kelsey Friend was majority whip, oh, let's see, I can't remember who the caucus chairman--

MOYEN: Was it David Karem, I think?

ROSE: No this, Karem wasn't there either. This was, Garrett, Friend, well, I can't remember now. But anyway, the bunch that the, the 01:15:00so-called Black Sheep Squadron that I was not part of, some of my colleagues that went at the same time I did, like Ed O'Daniel and Ed Ford and Danny Meyer, uh, Bob Martin was a part of it, but he, those people were joining with Lowell Hughes and John Berry, and Joe Wright, and Wine--, Weisenberger, there was another one or two, but that they were the so-called Black Sheep squadron. Now they, they seized power in 1990, in 1980.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: That was their first, when Joe Wright became assistant president pro-tem. Prather was able to come back and cut some kind of deal with 01:16:00them and stay as president pro-tem. John Berry became the majority leader, Lowell Hughes became majority whip, and David Karem became the majority caucus chairman. So they, they took office in my second session.

MOYEN: Okay.

ROSE: Now I think that was at the point, yeah, that was probably the point, and I pretty much stayed neutral in all of that. I didn't play a part in it whatsoever, and I didn't oppose the Black Sheep; at the same time, I wasn't out front, so some of the other people that were out front, such as Danny Meyer got to be chairman of Cities, Ed Ford got to be chairman of, no maybe he didn't. Bob Martin got to be chairman of Education. Another one or two, I forgot what Ford got something, but anyway, I didn't, I wasn't there early enough and often 01:17:00enough, so I was put on Judiciary Civil, which as I said, at that point I started building some relationships with some of these other people.

MOYEN: So this transition that took place after your first term, could you tell a difference in the way things were run in the Senate, or was it there is a leadership change basically functioning-- ROSE: Well I think, when I first got there, the governor, as such, had pretty much lost control of the day to day operations of it. In fact, I was, I was never opposed to the governor for being opposed's sake, and I was never for the Black Sheep because simply that was the position they had, I was somewhere in the middle. And many times I found myself as a swing vote, and got a lot of pressure from both sides to go one way or the 01:18:00other. But you know, effectively, effectively when a governor has to depend upon a swing vote from a freshman legislator he no longer has control in the General Assembly, the old days at that point were over. The problem I had, and I'm not being critical, but the problem I had in supporting the Black Sheep all the time was that I thought, and maybe this was important, maybe it had to be done, but I thought many times that they were just opposed for opposition's sake, instead of having a very definite reason or being opposed on principle or whatever.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: I think just anything to create chaos there, uh, and to bring the other side down was the goal, as opposed to the issue. And I'm not saying that's all wrong, because maybe that had to be done. Maybe you 01:19:00have to tear down before you can build again. And, but it just didn't suit me philosophically, and so I was with them some, and I was against them some.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: But there was some change, but I think more of that evolved later on. You know, there is, there is the contention, contentions that, like I experienced with Governor Wilkinson and Governor Jones, oh that couldn't have happened in 1980. I mean, if I, if the Senate had just set out with a course that was totally opposite from Governor Carroll or Governor Brown, why you know, things, somebody's head would have rolled or something.

MOYEN: Uh-huh.

ROSE: It, the legislature, over a period of years, it wasn't like this big light comes on and now we've got legislative independence, it was 01:20:00a, it was a, you know, an ongoing thing. And I think, you know, to a large extent, and I'm sure some of the people that still serving there would disagree with me, but I think there was a period there with Patton in the last few years when, at least as far as the Democrats are concerned, they no longer had legislative independence I think. They were pretty much back to the old time of doing whatever the governor wanted done, and you certainly can't say that about the state Senate after the Republicans got control of it. But I think to a large extent that, that one of the things that's been detrimental to the Democratic Party is that there has not been, not been that on-going dialogue, and people just did whatever Governor Patton wanted to do.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Okay, could you tell me a little bit, while we're talking about legislative independence and the governor's role, what were your impressions of Julian Carroll and his leadership style? You said that you, you felt like he, you know, in retrospect, he had lost control already by the time--

ROSE: Well yeah, I think as far, the way it used to be.

MOYEN: Right.

ROSE: I mean, of course he hadn't lost control to the extent that he couldn't get a lot of things done, but as far as just sitting down there and dictating everything, I think, I think that was over by the time I got there, you know.

MOYEN: Would that have had anything to do with, at the time, the fact that, you know, governors are serving only one term, and it's his second term? Because it seems like a lot of what I read about Carroll is that he was an extremely strong--

ROSE: Right.

MOYEN: you know, Emperor Julian or whatever else.

ROSE: Right. There's no question that they're all weaker in their 01:22:00second session, because people are already trying to figure out who the next one is going to be, but I think, I saw from the time I got there and as the legis--, as the legislature became more independent and forceful, for a long period of time there, I saw the, the, as far as I was concerned, the individual independence of elected senators increase significantly. I saw the ability of them, the intellectual ability, the educational level, I saw that increase, and you know, that is a natural progression toward independent thinking and being a more independent legislature. You know, that's what, that's the reason 01:23:00that dictators and people around the world can't control their people. As they see more, as they get exposed to more, as they get TVs, get more education, and whatever, at some point, then they overthrow them, or they want a different way of living, that's the reason communist countries came down. Once they were exposed to that, once they were educated, and I think to a certain extent, lesser extent, that happened there in the, in the legislature. But governor Carroll, at that time, was very knowledgeable about the state budget, about all the workings of state government, was very hands-on, was very personable. He, you know, was, as far as I know, was a, was a good governor in all those 01:24:00respects. He, it's just that these people, these Black Sheep and other people had decided that, uh, they didn't want to have to go down and bow down and ask the governor to put them in a leadership position--and they shouldn't have to do that.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: So it was just a natural progression there, and I think, you know, the handwriting was on the wall in 1977 when I went there.

MOYEN: Okay, um-hm. You mentioned that you felt like the handwriting was on the wall when the governor had come to a freshman senator and ask for his vote. Did that happen to you?

ROSE: Yeah. Yeah, the governor asked me to vote for his leadership.

MOYEN: Okay.

ROSE: And I ultimately did that. Didn't tell him I would at the time, in fact, I don't think he knew what I was going to do right up to the end, because I didn't, I wasn't asking for anything in return, I knew I wasn't going to get much if I did.

MOYEN: Right (laughs).

ROSE: So there was really no reason to be out there lobbying, or to be trying to get them beholden to me.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Were there any instances in that first session that you served where your vote, where you were really being courted by different sides on certain issues? Do you recall anything?

ROSE: Oh, I don't remember. I remember one time there was a pretty contentious issue, and I voted with, I voted with the administration, or what perceived to be the administration, with the, with the Senate leadership, two or three votes, and there was something that came up, I can't recall what it was, and it wasn't something that I felt really strongly about either way, and you know there's lots of issues down there that way, and so I just voted with the Black Sheep. And Tom 01:26:00Garrett came running back there, and he said, I never will forget, and Tom Garrett was, was, had probably as much or more ability than anybody I've ever, that I ever served with in those twenty-one years, a very bright man, and very articulate--but anyway, he came down there and said, "What happened?" I said, "What happened with what?" He said, "You voted against us." I said, "So?" You know, and he said, "Well, I thought you," I said, "Look, don't ever take me for granted. If you've got, if you want to explain something, you better be back here explaining, because I am not a yes vote for anybody." But because I voted with them two or three times, they took for granted that I was on their side or something, you know.

MOYEN: Uh-huh.

ROSE: So that comes to mind. And as I say, I was, I was neither, I was neither pro-Black Sheep or anti-Black Sheep.

MOYEN: Um-hm. You, you mention that first session, sitting back pretty quiet, did you sponsor anything during that first session?

ROSE: Yeah, I had that one little bill I was telling you about, and I had something to do with the court system, let's see, maybe I can think about it if I can reflect here a minute. Oh, it would let the district judge in certain instances, instances do probate work if the circuit judge was out or whatever, just very, you know, didn't amount to much. But I sponsored it, and it passed, became law, you know. So there was a bunch of other senators that probably sponsored twenty, and none of them became law, you know, but I wasn't, as I say, I wasn't out trying to make waves or trying to impress anybody. And I never was an introducer of legislation just for introduction's sake. Obviously later on because of my position I was, and was glad to be involved in some 01:28:00major legislation, sponsor of it and whatever, but there is, there is I tell you, there's some of them, I guess they're still there that, you know, the first day of the session, they introduced twenty bills, and the second day thirty, and it just, it's just, it's amazing. I don't know where they get all those ideas, they must have very active minds.

MOYEN: (Laughs), now did you sponsor that legislation because it would be, either it would, "We should do this," or it was, you thought it was critical, or "I should sponsor something."

ROSE: No, I would not have sponsored anything, except there was a lawyer there in Winchester that brought that to my attention, said, "This is a very real problem here. Sometimes people can't get before a judge, you know, a long period of time, and there's no reason they can't do this, 01:29:00no reason they shouldn't do it. They used to do it." Whatever it was, they used to do it before the judicial article that reformed the whole court system, but somehow or another, this inadvertently was left out when it was codified, so, but no, it wasn't something I was looking to do, it was just, somebody brought it to my attention. I introduced it, and it became a law.

MOYEN: Um-hm. So, did you have any goal per se during that first session besides learning, or was that your goal?

ROSE: Well learning was my main goal, but then as, uh, I guess halfway through the session or something, I started thinking about, boy, it'd be neat to be, be neat to be the majority whip, or something you know. 01:30:00Didn't tell a soul about it.

MOYEN: Right. Uh-huh.

ROSE: Just sit back there, looking around, majority whip got to be in all the meetings with the executive branch of government, or press or whatever, and thought that would be neat to be in leadership. If I'm going to be here, might as well be part of the decision makers, and be neat to do that. Again, I didn't, didn't announce for anything, didn't tell anybody anything, I just started biding my time, and of course in 1980 there was that new, new leadership bunch came in, and I don't know, it was, I think, I didn't run for legislative leadership until 1985. I was elected assistant president pro-tem of the Senate. Of course the, when the constitution changed, at the same time, assistant 01:31:00president pro-tem is now the president pro-tem. And the old president pro-tem, like Prather is and like I was in 1987, is now the president of the Senate. So, but it's a second position down, the assistant to the president of the Senate. But I basically was trying to learn, and of course at that point was trying to decide, basically, decided early on that this is something I wanted to do again, so I was preparing for my re-election in 1981, and, and of course, as I said, it was in the back of my mind that I would like to be in leadership.

MOYEN: Um-hm. All right, so after your first legislative session, Thelma Stovall called a special session, didn't she?

ROSE: Right.

MOYEN: What do you recall about that, and what were your thoughts on 01:32:00that?

ROSE: Well, I thought she was being politically expedient, and I think she probably was, she was running for governor, but I think a very good piece of legislation came out of that, which is House Bill 44, and I know some people disagree to this day, but I think four percent growth is something that government ought to be able to live with, I think it's, I think it's something that, that has helped keep property taxes low in a relatively poor state like Kentucky. I think that's important to try to keep those low. The one thing that came out of it that I don't think I, I don't remember whether I spoke out much against it at this point or not, but I thought, I thought the elimination of the sales tax on utilities was a mistake, that's a tremendous amount of 01:33:00money, even at that time, that we were precluded from having, and it made, it made everybody participate in, in paying for government. If you rent an apartment, you had to pay, pay some tax on those utilities. After passing that, if you could have a doctor here in town making $500,000 a year that lives across the river over here, or rents their apartment, and some farmer out here is paying to send over their kids to school, you know.

[End of Tape 1, Side 2]

[Begin Tape 2, Side 1]

MOYEN: We were talking about--

ROSE: Yeah, we were talking about the elimination of sales tax on utilities, and I thought that is something that was very detrimental to the state, as far as financing state government. You know I'm known as a big cutter of taxes, but you also need fairness of taxes, and so that was a negative that came out of that, out of that session. I never will forget when that was called, and the legislative leadership was 01:35:00trying to figure out what they were going to do, how are we going to get out of it, and I never will forget, they invited Julian Carroll up to the, up to the caucus, and I guess it's just from your perspective remembering that, but it seemed to me like he pretty much, uh, at that point when he'd talk before the Senate Democratic caucus, pretty much took control of the session and told them how to get out of the thing and get home with the minimum of harm done and with the best scenario for the people, and I think, as I recall, I could be wrong, as I recall, by and large we did pretty much what he proposed.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: That's the things I remember most about it.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Now, in the next governor's race, obviously that didn't 01:36:00help Thelma Stovall enough, because--

ROSE: No.

MOYEN: she wasn't able to win the--

ROSE: No, she was not a factor much.

MOYEN: win the next election, but did you support a particular candidate in the '79 election? ROSE: I, I supported Terry McBrayer. Oh, again, I wasn't, I wasn't out here waving a lot of flags and raising a bunch of money or whatever, but I think it was pretty well-known I was supporting Terry McBrayer.

MOYEN: Um-hm. And, and when did people realize in the primary that it looked like John Y. Brown had really taken a big step forward, you know, just jumping in the race and getting--

ROSE: Yeah, I don't know, that thing was, was, it's the most amazing race. I never will forget, he, he was flying around in a helicopter, 01:37:00and this was like, I don't know three weeks out or something, and he flew in, they had a little old heliport there at the Holiday Inn in Winchester, and one of his college classmates and two or three other people were out there to greet him and meet him, and I don't even know whether the press was there or not, but I mean that was it. And this was three weeks out, and supposedly he was gathering this momentum, but still, I mean, nobody, and it was announced, they had it in the paper and everything he was going to be out there, and nobody showed up; I mean nobody. And you know, three weeks later he's elected. But I don't know, it was a combination of, of things. I think, I think at that point some of the problems that Governor Carroll was having with regard to investigations and whatever was detrimental 01:38:00to, to Mr. McBrayer, much like some of the, here in 2003, much of the investigations that's going on with the current administration is detrimental to Democratic candidates. So I think that had some part in it, that Brown here he comes in; he's a fresh face; he's got Miss America by his side; oh you know, he's doing the Ross Perot thing, "Look, it's not any big deal there, I can, I run this, big companies, this government's not unlike that, I can run that," and they were just looking for something like that. They thought he could bring them prosperity, and before we go any further, I want to tell you, I think Governor Brown was a, was a really good governor. I think he, I think he served during sometimes, some economic down times that have happened 01:39:00many times in our history, and he, in fact many times during my tenure there, and I thought he handled it very well.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: He cut government, he cut things out, he made it work, he increased the efficiency of it, and I didn't always appreciate the way he went about it or whatever, but, uh, you know, he, he was, I think was a good governor.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Now, when you say that you didn't appreciate maybe some of the ways he went about it, can you give me examples?

ROSE: Well, like before he ever got, before he ever, uh, got elected, I mean before he ever took off--, was sworn in, he made a statement like, uh, well you know, most legislators are not worth the money cost to get them here to Frankfort; you know, I mean, things like that which is, which is kind of, you know, you and I both are laughing, and I mean, I wouldn't say most, but there are maybe some that's not, you know, but it's just not something you, you say, and then it thought he, and 01:40:00of course that was one of the things that helped to give me a little credibility there in the legislature, was when he did the mass firings in state government there, state employees, and I became chairman of the committee that investigated all that, and his, where he wanted to go was, was correct, that's what needed to be done. They needed, we needed reduction in state employees, and there was a process to go about doing that.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: But Governor Brown and his people didn't follow that. So what happened ultimately was that the state employees sued and were all reinstated with back pay, which negated all the positive things that was done. So you know, as I say, I think he had a lot of, but that's just an example or two of, you know, where I think that the way he went 01:41:00about it wasn't, wasn't probably prudent or the right thing to do.

MOYEN: Um-hm. What were your, either your first or your most memorable interactions with him? Anything stick out in your mind?

ROSE: Well, uh, I remember the first time I met with him, and he had made another statement like, uh, like, "They can all be bought," or something, or you give them a project, or give them something else. He said, "I ain't worried about them, you give them something and they'll vote with you," you know. And I never will forget I, he called me down there, he was, I was a swing vote on a very crucial issue with him, and he said--

MOYEN: Do you recall what the issue was?

ROSE: Uh, no, not at this point I can't--but anyway, he said, he said, "I want you to vote for me, vote with me later this afternoon" and I said, "Well," I said, "I'll look at it." I said, "But let me say this 01:42:00governor," I said, "before we get started here." I said, "I want you to know there is nothing I want, and not a thing that you can do for me personally." I said, "I know you've made statements like, 'they can all be bought,' or whatever," I said, "I want you to know," looked him right in the eye, I said, "I want you to know, there is nothing you can do for me, before we go any further." And he said, of course Brown had that way about him, he said, "Oh, I was talking about some of the rest, I wasn't talking about you Eck," you know, and whatever. And so that was my first, first deal with him, and then I told him, I said, "Governor, this bill does so and so and so and so," and he said, well, let me, let me back up. Then he said, he said, "Are you going, are you going to vote for that?" I said, "I don't know," I said, "there are some things I don't like about the thing." He said, "Well I'm not changing anything," you know like that, and I said, "Well, we 01:43:00don't have anything else to talk about." And I got up out of my chair and just getting ready to walk, he said, "Wait a minute, come back here." I said, "What is it sir?" He said, "Sit down there," you know, he said, "What's wrong with the bill?" And I told him a thing or two, and he said, "It does that?" And I said, "Yes sir, it does that," and he said, "Hell, I'm not for that." I said, "Well, I didn't figure you were, but I had read the bill and you haven't." He said, "Well, get that changed." I said, "Well, I can't get it changed without, you know, it's your bill, you need to say, 'Well, yeah, I'll say I need to change that,'" you know. So, but that was my, some of my first impressions of him. He, he was, as I say, I thought he was, he was a very, I thought he was a good governor, thought he did a good job. One of the things about Brown was he had this self-confidence to the extent that, that he could admit he was wrong, he had self-confidence to the extent that you 01:44:00could on an intellectual basis discuss something with him. And if you could prove to him or show him that your position was right, he would agree with you. Now I won't get into who or what or when or where, but there were some of the other governors that seemed to not to have that self-confidence, or the ability to interact with you intellectually. They got started down a road, and there was no deviation from that, regardless of what obstacle presented itself.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Do you think that self-confidence may have been some of what led to this, you described it as an evolution earlier, but a lot of people say, you know, "John Y. Brown's election is the watershed event in legislative independence." Would you agree with that, and do you think some of his personality or self-confidence led to that? That he wasn't necessarily concerned--

ROSE: Yeah, that, I think Brown really, really thought that, he didn't feel threatened by legislative independence, because he did not want to run every little old thing in the state. He didn't, he could care less who had what job, and where or what. He didn't want to be bothered with that stuff you know. So I think, I think that was a, there was a void there, where all previous governors who wanted to be involved in every little old job down here at the state highway garage or whatever, you know, and Brown wasn't into that. He was in to the big picture, he was into trying to manage state government as efficiently as he could, and I think that void there, and I think he sincerely believed that the legislature ought to be an independent body, and, and making some decisions. I think that's self, I think he had the confidence 01:46:00to believe, and most of the time it worked, but I think he had come to believe that when I've got an issue that I am the ultimate salesman, and I can get them to go along with whatever I want to do anyway.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: So he wasn't, it wasn't like he felt like they were going to grab the bit and run off, you know--

MOYEN: Right.

ROSE: in somewhere where you couldn't find them.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Now, most people would say that during, or right after his election, the legislature asserted its independence to some extent, or that the legislature gained its independence. Do you feel like, did the legislature, or the leaders in your case in the Senate, did you feel like that was something that they took from him? Or was he just--

ROSE: No he got, absolutely didn't get involved at all in it, oh, as I said, in 1977 or -8 there, it was really close with regard to, uh, the 01:47:00Black Sheep taking over. In 1980, we kept hearing these rumors, at least I kept hearing some people that, "Brown's going to get involved," you know, "you're going to be getting a call from Brown," and this kind of stuff. This was the other side of the Black Sheep, and of course Brown, Brown didn't get involved, and it was just a true, sincere vote on behalf of the senators with regard to who they wanted.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Do you recall any really important legislation that you sponsored during his tenure as governor in either of the sessions? ROSE: Yeah, I sponsored, the, uh, I'm not sure which session it was--well, it had to have been the '82 session, I sponsored reform of the personnel department, which goes back to what I was talking about 01:48:00before, about some of the way that the Brown administration dismissed employees, and my legislation which, to this day is still pretty much on the books. Now, I sponsored another bill after that, or two, but, and made some changes in personnel, because this became something that I was kind of in the forefront on, but in the 1982 session, and I think it became law then, if not, then in '84 because there was, there was some contention between me and the House members, with regard to what that bill should do exactly, but there was major legislation passed that I sponsored--and again, I think it was '82, could have been '84.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Okay. During Brown's tenure as governor, he was gone 01:49:00quite a bit, wasn't he? Was there much mention of that? Did the legislature concern themselves with that, think that that was great, or think that it was really bad, or--

ROSE: No, I don't think there was, they perceived it either one way or the other. I think, I think there was some relief that the governor was not involved in every little old decision going on, it was a refreshing thing to not have them involved. I think the legislature, and the state, at that time, were somewhat proud of the fact that we've got a person here that is nationally known, you know, he had owned sports teams, he was a known, his name was known wherever you wanted to be in the United States or maybe even abroad; he, Phyllis George was nationally known; I think there was some pride in that. The downside 01:50:00to all that, if there was one, and I guess it is one, is that you don't, just because the head man or woman is out of town and not taking a hand in it, does not mean that there's not political decisions made.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: Somebody is going to make them. Now, either the governor's going to make them, or somebody, a cabinet secretary is going to make them, if they don't make them, then somebody down the, down the thing is going to make them, and unless there's somebody watching to be sure it's done right, so I think that's what, I think that's what happened, a little bit, and some of the problems that Governor Brown ran into is that he said, "Well, we need 5,000 less state employees." So he gets on the plane and goes to Vegas, or Florida, or wherever he wants 01:51:00to go, and I'm not criticizing that, but instead of, instead of being sure that these people were eliminated from the state payrolls in a methodical, legal way, they just bound pink slips and whatever, you know, and so somebody's going to make the decisions. Retrospect, I think he would have been a much better governor if he would have been a little more hands-on, you know, I think he did a good job, I think he would have been a better governor if he'd been a little more hands-on. Not to the extent of picking legislative leadership.

MOYEN: Right.

ROSE: I don't think, I don't think one branch of government ought to be involved in that at all. So, but as far as some of the other decisions he'd been better off if he'd been more hands-on. So--

MOYEN: Did you feel like he had a pretty strong cabinet?

ROSE: Yeah. Yeah, I certainly do. I think, I think they were a little, some of them were a little intolerant of the political process, and 01:52:00didn't have much appreciation for government, or how it functions, or how it should function, they didn't have much appreciation for the individuals in government, other people there, but I think, I think any time you can bring in people that have been successful as some of his people had been, it'd have to be a plus for the state, and they were not flashing the pans, you know. Mr. Young has done quite well, before he got in government and subsequent to being in government, you know. So it's, I think having people there of that caliber, magnitude, was a beneficial thing. You know, the best scenario would be to have people like that, that have been very successful in other businesses, 01:53:00in other walks of life and whatever, and then having somebody run under them that would not get political and fill the vacuum that, that they were creating there, and I think that happens in some cases.

MOYEN: Okay. Now during John Y's term, you are up for re-election for the first time, correct?

ROSE: Yeah, I was, I was, that's correct, it'd be 1981.

MOYEN: But you didn't face any opposition?

ROSE: Didn't have any opposition, right.

MOYEN: Was that really rare for a senator?

ROSE: Oh, yeah probably in the first term. Um-hm, probably in the first term.

MOYEN: Why do you think that was so?

ROSE: Well, I think it's, I think it's, oh, several reasons, and I worked toward that end from the outset, because I didn't want, I didn't want to face the pole that quick, and although it wouldn't be that quick, it's four years, but I worked at it, number one, I tried not 01:54:00to alienate a lot of people just by running my mouth when I shouldn't, uh, just keep my mouth shut when I disagreed with things that I want--, I wasn't going to compromise my position, or principles, but just, just because somebody was, I thought they were wrong, I just voted no, instead of trashing them, you know or whatever. I worked very hard at, and one of my supporters told me, he said, "Eck, you win your second election with the people that were against you the first election," and I found that to be true a lot, because the ones that supported you the first time, some of them are unreasonable, they want you to do things that will either get you in jail, or get you in trouble, or whatever, and you have to tell them no, and they get mad at you. Some of these people that were against you the first time, they want to be right the second time. And if you show them any attention whatsoever, they're 01:55:00going to be for you.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: So I did a, I did a tremendous amount of cultivating people that weren't for me the first time, and I think was pretty successful in that, and you know not that I eliminated all of my political enemies, you never do, but I think they were such a minority that they knew it was, that they felt like, it may not have been, but they felt like that it was useless to try to beat me. So you know, just several factors. I think I spent my own money in '77, spent quite a bit more than my opponent did; I think by '81 there was a feeling that I would spend my own money again and that I could raise money, you know, just a lot of different factors.

MOYEN: Right, um-hm. You mentioned a lot of people who might vote for 01:56:00you the first time won't vote for you the second time because they're unreasonable about what they expect from you.

ROSE: Right.

MOYEN: Any specific examples of that that you can think of where someone came back and said, and you just said, "That's outlandish," or--

ROSE: Yeah, I don't, I don't, I can't recall specifics, and I don't know that I'd want to discuss, but there was a mentality back in the '70's and the early '80's that nobody was supposed to, if you knew somebody you didn't pay a traffic ticket, or if you were pulled over for a DUI that the judge threw the thing away, you know, and the prosecutor did or something like that, and of course I never was, I never was into that kind of stuff, and, and never did try to prevail on the judicial branch of government to do those kinds of things. I'm not saying I 01:57:00wouldn't, somebody was in a hurry to go to the hospital or something, got pulled over for speeding or something, that I wouldn't try to help them get the ticket amended, not thrown away, but amended or something if there was some logical explanation. But you know, there would be people that just, that because they supported you, that over a traffic ticket, or one vote, or whatever, you know, would just, just be against you. And, and you know, you have 1,500 bills introduced down there every session, and there are no two people on earth that are going to vote exactly alike every time.

MOYEN: Right.

ROSE: So at some point I'm going to vote different from what a previous supporter thinks I should have. Now the, the question should be, for a person going to the polls is, "Is this person going to represent me the way I want to be represented most of the time?" Because there's no way that person's going to be there every time.

MOYEN: Right, um-hm.

ROSE: But some people, as I say, why I use the term unreasonable, it's like that you can do what they want done every single instance that comes about.

MOYEN: Um-hm, okay. Now, after John Y. Brown's term as governor, Martha Layne Collins wins election. And for example in main history book in Kentucky, it said that the Senate and the House rejected her plan during her first, or the first legislative session while she was governor. What about her plan was rejected, or what was she not successful with at accomplishing?

ROSE: As I recall, it was a bill on education reform, uh, and I can't remember what all she asked for. Came, she came back, if I'm correct, 01:59:00and it's been a long time ago, but she came back later and passed some, some education reform.

MOYEN: Well, '85 was the special session.

ROSE: Yeah. I can't remember exactly what the hang-up was, I assume it was over, over taxes or something, but I can't, it's been so long ago I can't remember, and I wasn't, at that point, now I came into leadership in '85, which was right at the end of her term. She was elected in, no let's see, '81, no wait a minute--

MOYEN: She was elected in '83.

ROSE: Eighty-three, okay, then I, right, her last session would have been '83, '84, it would have been '86. So, I guess I was assistant president pro-tem in, in '85, and then '87 I was elected president pro-tem. So I was not, yeah Prather was still there as president 02:00:00pro-tem. But I can't recall exactly what the deal was, and I remember Prather trying to pass it before the Senate and couldn't, I remember the special session and came back and did pass it, but it was not in terms of comparison with what we did in 1990, this was band-aid stuff, you know, but it was rejected, the first thing was.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Did the Senate leaders, at the time, or did you at the time, feel like you had gained your legislative independence in a very clear way under Brown, and so we need to make sure that we guard it with a new governor. Was there that sense at all?

ROSE: Oh, I don't, I didn't, I certainly didn't feel that way. No I never, I never sensed that from other legislators. Like when I ran 02:01:00against Delbert Murphy for the, and he was the incumbent president pro-tem, when I ran against him, well at that time it was called the assistant president pro-tem. When I ran against him, I don't, the governor, Governor Collins never turned her hand either way, you know to support him or me or whatever. So I think at that point, I think at that point they sensed they'd pretty much, pretty much arrived. So, no, trying to teach her a lesson, I never sensed that. Maybe it was there, and maybe I just wasn't privy to that kind of information, but--

MOYEN: What do you recall about the special session in '85 that did deal with education reform, like you said to a lesser extent than would be done a few years later?

ROSE: Yeah. I don't recall a whole lot about that session, but one thing I do recall was, was, was governor Collins, or at least some of the administration was wanting to bond the, the monies needed to do that; I remember that getting to be a big issue, instead of raising taxes to do it, or cutting something else and spending, spending the money out of those resources, whether they wanted to bond some of the things that were done there, but I, you know, at the time I didn't think it was significant legislation, and it's become so insignificant eighteen years later that I can't even remember what it was.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Now, there's also a trend around the beginning of your legislative career with John Y. Brown, and then with Collins and other governors, a shift from what may have been this very powerful western 02:03:00Kentucky contingent to more governors being from the bluegrass area of Kentucky. Did you ever sense from senators in other parts of the count--, or in the state, a regional tension? Were there tensions about regions and who had influence, or who was getting what? And if so, did you find yourself in the middle of that being partway bluegrass and partway mountain?

ROSE: Oh, I think I was always considered a person that couldn't be labeled because as you pointed out early on in this interview, I live in a rock's throw of Lexington and represented counties that are more eastern Kentucky. Answer your question: was there groups that tried 02:04:00to bond together and play one part of the state against the other, I guess you always have a little bit of that. When, after I got to be in leadership, uh, there was a non-written rule that west Kentucky was going to have a senator in leadership, Jefferson County was going to have one, and eastern Kentucky was going to have one. And then there was, the other two were from wherever they could get elected from, you know kind of a toss-up kind of thing, but those three regions were deserving of one, and for the most part that played out and played out pretty well, for a long time, and for the most part, it was a situation where, uh, like in west Kentucky, oh to a certain extent was, "You 02:05:00folks decide who it's going to be, you know, come and tell us and we'll support whoever it's going to be," and the same way with Louisville and the same way with eastern Kentucky. So, we tried to keep that at a minimum there in the Senate, and I think were very, very effective in doing that. My, I didn't have a built-in base to run for leadership from, because as you point out, I was neither central Kentucky, I didn't, I wasn't, the eastern Kentucky people didn't accept me as being from eastern Kentucky, and so mine was done not from a regional basis, but one on one with the senators all across the state, to develop a relationship with them that, "Look, I'm going to be for Rose, I don't care where he's from."

MOYEN: Right.

ROSE: So, that's the way I approached it.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Very significant piece of legislation during these years was the legislation that brought Toyota here. Do you recall how that developed, and what the naysayers were most concerned about, those who didn't like the idea of the tax incentives package and stuff that was given to Toyota?

ROSE: Yeah, I remember that legislation very well because it was significant legislation. You know, I think a lot of the opposition was just anti-growth people, anti-progress people. A lot of them were that way, and then I think there was some very, very real and very concerned people about whether, whether this could be done to the extent that 02:07:00Governor Collins wanted it done constitutionally. And I think that question is still out there, not that it's going to be undone or whatever, but I think there, there are legal scholars all across the state that would tell you that the constitution, state constitution was bent, and bent very severely, to allow this, and to accommodate this, this decision. So it was a, it was a combination of things, and you know, there's people that still to this day, I assume, would like Georgetown, Kentucky, and that area, to be like it was before, but it never will be again, you know, because of all this progress that's been made, and things that have happened, jobs have been created, spin-off jobs and whatever. So I think it was, I think, I think if there were 02:08:00people out there saying that, "This is going to be a disaster," I think there were a lot of those people that were saying that, that knew it wasn't going to be a disaster, but they did not want to see this major change to the state, and particularly to the bluegrass region.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: And that's having repercussions, and still being debated, and fought in every little old county in central Kentucky to this day. In my own county of Clark, there is still the pro-growth, and the anti- growth, and much of that can be attributed to the decisions that were made back then to attract jobs to central Kentucky. Now, when you, you can't have it both ways. You can't have a place for everybody to work, you can't have a place for your sons and daughters to go to school and then get a job making 70 or 80 or $90,000 at Toyota and not expect them 02:09:00to want to have a nice home in the country. You know that's what comes with that kind of money.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: So, but there are some people there that, "Well, we want the jobs, but we want, we want the farms, we want the bluegrass." Well, you know, that's double standard, you can't have that. And the decision was made a long time ago, twenty years ago, that we want jobs in central Kentucky.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: So the decision was made at that time that we're not going to have as many farms in central Kentucky.

MOYEN: Um-hm. When was that? Or--

ROSE: During this Toyota thing, and then a lot of it went on, and this Toyota thing, the spin-off from that, you know, it's created a tremendous amount of wealth, and added to the economy where the, now, when these people get to making this money, they're not going to live in an apartment, they don't have to anymore, and the economic, 02:10:00economics of it is that when that happens, and they have the money, and the demand gets there, then the property becomes available, you know, money changes the whole world, and it's changed central Kentucky, and much of it, and it's not just Toyota, but there was, there was a major effort all across central Kentucky, and extended on into, up into Montgomery County, and all those counties, that we don't want this high unemployment, we don't want our kids to have to go to Ohio, or Illinois, or wherever, to get a job. We want them to work here, we want to, we want to bring these jobs in here, and been successful at it.

MOYEN: Um-hm, um-hm. Around the same time that that legislation passes and has all the repercussions we're talking about, you do decide to seek a position of assistant pro-tem.

ROSE: Um-hm.

MOYEN: And you unseat Delbert Murphy of Owensboro in the process. What made you decide, at that point, this is the time to try to get a leadership position in the Senate?

ROSE: Well, I just thought the time was right, in fact, and Delbert and I discussed this, I supported him when he ran, when did he, he ran in like, I don't think he had the job but two years or four years, and I told him at that time, I said, "Delbert, I'm going to support you, but I may want this myself in a few years," because as I told you in that first session I started looking at maybe trying to get in leadership at some point. And he said, "Well that's fine, I just want your vote now," you know, and then I, I went to him before I started trying to secure votes, and I told him again, I said, "Now, Delbert, I," you know, "I told you I wanted to do this," and I said, "there's no, no 02:12:00hard feelings and whatever, but I'm going to run for your position." And you know, I think probably, I can't recall exactly, but I probably told him I wish you would just pull out or something, of course he, he didn't, and I beat him, but just, I just barely beat him, I think sixteen to thirteen or something like that.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: I made a, I made a mistake then in that campaign that I never did make again. Oh, I had, I had what I thought were seventeen votes, and I quit trying to get anymore, because I felt--or maybe I beat him fifteen to fourteen, yeah, I think I beat him fifteen to fourteen. I had sixteen votes, and I felt I had sixteen votes and I quit trying to get anymore. Well one of them, one of the people that was committed to me voted for him, so instead of sixteen to thirteen, it was fifteen 02:13:00to fourteen. So, then when I got ready to run for president of the Senate, when Prather didn't seek re-election, I tried to get every last one of them, I never made that mistake again, because one more, if one more had told me they were for me, and voted the other way, then Murphy would have won fifteen to fourteen.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Do you recall who that was, and what the issue was?

ROSE: Yeah, I know who it was, yeah. But, I don't want to get into that.

MOYEN: Okay.

ROSE: It's never been a public knowledge or whatever. I know who it was, and he knows who it was, so--

MOYEN: Is there any way that you can discuss what the issues were without giving a specific--

ROSE: It was not any issue, just somebody that promised both sides, and I mean there's, there wasn't any issue to it.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: He just promised both sides, and you can't vote but one.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Okay, how do you go about campaigning within the Senate for a seat? What do you have to do? What types of questions do the 02:14:00other senators ask you?

ROSE: Oh it's, it's not that unlike running for your office, you know, you approach them, and of course, at that point, unless you're a freshman senator or something and haven't had the opportunity to be around the candidates, unless it's that kind of case, in most cases you know them, know them real well, and because you know, you just have thirty-eight senators, and at that time, a little over half of them were Democrats, so you know, you're looking at, looking at dealing with nineteen or twenty people, or--so they all know you, and that's pretty much, you know, there's not a lot of real close races most of the time in legislative leadership. Most of the time it might be for, be some contention or activity for a month or two, but at that point, 02:15:00why, it becomes apparent that one of them is going to get elected, and usually the thing dissipates. Every now and then it goes right down to the wire, but you know, I didn't, I really, I can honestly say that I never, I never promised anybody anything to be in leadership or to stay in leadership. Tell 'em, you know, say, "Well, I want to be chairman to so and so, and so and so," and I said, "Well, we'll look at it, give you every consideration, but I'm not going to sit here and tell you that you're going to be so and so. I just, I just don't believe--well, first of all, it's not that important, or never was that important to me to be there to where I had to start trading votes or trading things to get there. Now, you know, some people will tell you, "Well you're, 02:16:00you're not being truthful Rose, nobody could stay president of the Senate for ten years without doing that." Well, I challenge them to go out and get one person to say that I ever promised to do something in return for my leadership position. I just didn't do it.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Was there any reason in particular that you chose assistant pro-tem?

ROSE: Well, I was hearing rumors that Prather might not run again. In fact was approached, and there were rumors out there that I wanted to be president of the Senate, in fact I was approached by a constituent or two of Prather's, along the lines of, "Hey boy, you would never think about running against Joe Prather, would you?" And I assured him I wouldn't, that he was, considered him a friend of mine, philosophically we were pretty much on the same page. I said, "Now, if he ever decides to not run, I probably would." But Prather was an 02:17:00auctioneer at that point, I was an auctioneer, you know, we had a lot in common. So I wasn't going to run against him, but I was hearing rumors that he wouldn't, in fact, when I told him, of course, he was still there when I ran against Delbert Murphy, and still president pro-tem, was going to be voting in this race, and I told him what I was thinking about doing, and that was the first time he ever told me that he probably wasn't going to run again. He said, "I'm looking at not running when this thing's up," and said you know, "this might be the time to do that, because this would present you a leg up if you want my position." I said, "Well, I'd like to have your position if you're not going to be here. So, that was the first time I ever heard that he, out of his mouth. There'd been rumors, you know.

MOYEN: Right.

ROSE: So, it all fit and worked perfectly, so that became, the goal was 02:18:00not just to be assistant president pro-tem at that point. The goal was to, as soon as Prather didn't run again, that I would try to run for that. Of course out there, as another factor that came into play at some point was I wasn't the only one that wanted that position. Joe Wright thought he might want that position. Benny Bailey wanted that position, David Karem wanted that position, there were a bunch of them out there, but my plan was to first be assistant president pro-tem, then when Prather quit to do the other--

MOYEN: Um-hm. So that wasn't, like of course I read, coincidental that you announced that you're going to run and do win the assistant pro- tem, and then at the end of that year, '85, although it didn't end right then, but Joe Prather announces that he's not going to.

ROSE: Right, exactly.

MOYEN: Not coincidental.

ROSE: Not at all. Not at all. Not at all.

MOYEN: Okay.

ROSE: That was, if the influence that you would have as assistant president pro-tem would have not been sufficient for what I wanted to do.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Okay.

[End of Tape 2, Side 1]

[Begin Tape 2, Side 2]

MOYEN: All right, we were talking about your decision to run, and how you expected that to be a stepping stone--

ROSE: Right.

MOYEN: to becoming president pro-tem. Did you know exactly how soon Joe Prather was going to announce that he was stepping down?

ROSE: Yeah, as I said before, he, when I went to, when I was getting ready to run against Delbert Murphy, I approached him for his vote, and he told me at that point, "I am likely not to run for re-election 02:20:00again, so the president pro-tem position would be up, and that's something you would be in position to do if you, when this--." So yeah, I, and I didn't say a word to a soul. Of course it already has been, there already had been rumors out there to that effect, but that's what he told me, so I guess I knew that, I knew that he was likely not, and it wasn't a firm decision, but I knew he was likely not to run, that would have been some time in '84.

MOYEN: Okay. When, once he announced that he wasn't going to run, how quickly did Benny Ray Bailey officially say, "I'm running for this post as well."

ROSE: Well, as far as I know he was in the race immediately.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: Of course, Joe Wright and I were really good friends, and close as Prather and I were philosophically. Joe and I had the common denominator of both being farmers, even though I did other things, of course Joe had some agribusiness interests. But I was, because Joe had been majority leader, I was going to acquiesce to his wishes if he, if he wanted to be president of the Senate then I was going to run for majority leader.

MOYEN: Okay.

ROSE: And if he was going to stay majority leader, then I was going to run for president of the Senate. We had that understanding. And there was a period there that Joe was hesitant to decide which he wanted to do.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: I think Joe was the ultimate citizen legislator. He liked coming to the session, he liked being in a leadership position there. At the same time, I don't think he enjoyed coming to Frankfort when the Senate wasn't in session. Of course, the president of the Senate is not only presiding officer of the Senate when you're in session, and the leader of the Senate there, but you're also the head of the administrative part of the Senate, as far as approving travel, and a lot of little old administrative things that I don't think Joe wanted to be there. So ultimately he decided that he wasn't, he didn't want to seek that, and told me. So I you know, I was basically at that point trying to shore up, and a lot of the people that were going to support me were going to support Joe too, and they wanted the both of us to have those two positions, president of the Senate and majority leader.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: And, and I don't think, I think to a lot of them it didn't make any difference to them who was what, you know. So I was able to, I was able to shore up votes that they were going to support me for one of those two positions.

MOYEN: Uh-huh.

ROSE: So you know, as I say, and I don't remember now when it was that Joe finally decided he was not going to pursue the president, president of the Senate, and was going to stay as majority leader. Of course, Karem was running at the same time for president of the Senate, but I don't think he was running until after Joe decided he wasn't going to run.

MOYEN: Um-hm. When did you, when did you know, in that race, that you had that locked up?

ROSE: Oh, very early on. Very early on. And, well as I say, I didn't, 02:24:00I didn't stop with the majority this time.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: Because I saw what happened the other time, and I just kept trying to pick up votes and pick up votes and was successful in doing that. Of course when Karem finally came to me and tried to get me to support him or whatever, and then he, he saw, I think he saw I had the votes, so then he drops out and supports me. So it all came together, and there wasn't anybody left but Bailey in the race. But I never will forget the conversation that Karem, when he came to me and he said, "I want to talk to you," and I said, "fine, David. What do you want to talk about?" He said, "About this president pro-tem 02:25:00of the Senate," and I said, "Well, fine." He said, "I've been here longer than you." I said, "That's true. You've been here a lot longer than I have." He said, "I've done more in this Senate than you have." I said, "that's probably true, David, probably true. Probably true. You've probably been more active than I have." And he said, let's see, what was the other one? Been there longer than me, and I guess there was two things, said, "I've been here longer than you, and I've done, done, accomplished more or done more for the Senate than you have." I said, "That's probably true," and he said--oh I know what he said, he said, "I think I deserve to be president pro-tem of the Senate." I said, "Well, you probably do." He said, "So, are you going to support me?" And I said, "No, David, you don't have the votes." I said, "I've got the votes." So he said, "Oh, okay. I'm going to support you," you know, and so that's the way it ended up.

MOYEN: Um-hm, were there any other interesting discussions that you had with people as you were running for that? Either getting their advice or asking about that? Type things that you wouldn't be able to find out just from reading the paper?

ROSE: Oh I think, I think probably something that's not general knowledge, but probably one of the best things I did to assure my position, and also to assure that we would have a good team to work together, was encouraging and finally getting Charlie Berger to run for assistant president pro-tem. He did that, that filled the slot of the 02:27:00person from the, from eastern Kentucky, leadership you know. Of course Charlie was a really good senator. He's never gotten much recognition, uh, but there has never been a more solid person to have ever served in the legislature than Charlie Berger.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: Principled, he voted like he, like he knew he was supposed to, and was just, was just a joy to work with, very bright--

MOYEN: He's on my slate here.

ROSE: Well, you're in, and he's very entertaining. Very entertaining, you're in for a treat.

MOYEN: Well good.

ROSE: One of the greatest stories I ever heard happened there, you were talking about Brown earlier, Charlie had a bill, I think Bailey was in on it, that in effect legalized cock fighting, and Brown was committed to vote for it, I mean to sign it, to sign it into law. And of course 02:28:00Brown claimed he didn't know what it did, they had it under the guise that they were going to wash all the black birds and starlings were a problem, and congregating towns, and spreading disease, and what you do is spray them with water, with a detergent that washes the natural oils out of their feathers, and they die from hypothermia, and the guise was to take the birds from being, from being considered an animal, take them out from under that so that people wouldn't get charged for cruelty to animals because of killing these starlings. Well, of course that made it applicable to made it applicable to chickens too when you did that, you know. So the press gets on it, and they go to Brown, "You're not going to sign that, are you?" "I don't," Brown says, "I don't know, what are you talking about?" And so they explained it, "Well no, I ain't going to sign that." So he calls, he calls Berger down to 02:29:00the governor's office. Said, "Charlie that bill that you wanted me to sign," said, "that legalizes cockfighting." Charlie says, "It does?!" He said, "Yeah, that's what the press is saying," and he said, "I can't sign that." And Charlie said, "Well, you said you would sign it," and he said, "Well, I didn't know what it did." So anyway, Brown being the, again, the ultimate sales person, he's going to convince Charlie that this shouldn't, Charlie's friends shouldn't be doing this, you know, and he said, Charlie said, "What do you all want to, what do y'all want to do that to those chickens for?" And ol' Charlie said he just did things, said, "Well governor, I'm going to tell you one thing," said, "we haven't been nearly as hard on chickens as you have," said, "at least ours has got a fighting chance" (Moyen laughs). That's a true story. True story. We haven't been as hard on them as you have.

MOYEN: (Both laugh), that's good. Now, you're saying that you pretty much had to convince him?

ROSE: Oh, I don't know, he probably wanted it. I mean, you can't talk somebody into that.

MOYEN: Right. Uh-huh.

ROSE: You know, he probably wanted to do it anyway, but certainly I, let's say I encouraged him.

MOYEN: Um-hm, um-hm. So, when you were running for this position, I found an article in the Herald-Leader that described you like this, it's quote, "Rose is operating behind the scenes, he has avoided speeches and the spotlight that comes with sponsoring legislation." Would you describe that as accurate up to that point in time?

ROSE: Oh I think it pretty much ties in with what I've told you, that Wendell Ford told me to go to the back and keep my mouth shut, and, uh, some time or another they would come looking for me. I still don't, 02:31:00never did consider myself a flamboyant person. I prefer to work behind the scenes; I've got a lot of press and publicity later on there, but that was never contrary to what some people thought was, that wasn't me, that wasn't what I wanted, that wasn't what I was seeking. On the other hand, I never did back up from somebody trying to intimidate me, or never did back up from standing up for what I believed was right and ought to be done.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: And so--yeah, I think that was an accurate statement, I think it's true today. I think it's true today. But events between that article and today would, would say that that's not accurate. But it is, and was.

MOYEN: Um-hm, okay. Now it also, it said that you didn't sponsor a 02:32:00whole lot of legislation, except it did mention a bill to reform the state merit system.

ROSE: That's what I was talking about earlier about the Brown administration--

MOYEN: Okay.

ROSE: that personnel bill that still is pretty much today intact that protects the rights of employees and specifies in a very detailed manner how you have to go about dismissing one.

MOYEN: Um-hm. When you took that position, just kind of like what I was asking you about earlier, what types of things were a surprise to you about the types of things you would have to deal with, and what was pretty much like you expected?

ROSE: You mean being president of the Senate?

MOYEN: Yeah, um-hm.

ROSE: Oh I think from, at that point, after sitting back there and being quiet and observing and whatever, in that two year tenure as assistant 02:33:00president pro-tem, I don't think there was any surprises. I pretty much knew what I was getting into, and I knew that I had to develop a coalition there that, that would be supportive of myself and the rest of the Democratic leadership, and a coalition that, that basically wanted to do the right thing for Kentuckians.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: And I think there was a period there, and certainly I'm not taking credit for all of it, I hope I was one small part, but there's a period there of about ten years that the Democrats, and not, wasn't all Democrats, because certainly some of the Republicans joined us from time to time too, but I think there was a period there that we pretty much set policy for the whole state.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: We, we developed policy, we opposed, other people were trying to 02:34:00do things we didn't think, and we prevailed.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: Ninety-nine percent of the time we prevailed.

MOYEN: Um-hm. When you took that position, very shortly thereafter when things really get interesting once Wilkinson is elected governor, but before that I, as best I can tell, you were involved in encouraging the special session to deal with worker's compensation issues. Is that correct?

ROSE: Yeah, that was the first time I ever got, crossed ways with a governor, and it was in the first year of my being the leader of the Senate. Oh I just thought something had to be done. And, oh, so I, I think that, and again, see here I'm getting, I'm getting that I forced 02:35:00the session. I didn't force the session, I was the focal point, I was the front man. The Senate Democrats forced the session, because I was the one up there running my mouth, and doing whatever, but I had the support behind the scenes, and they wanted to go the same place I wanted to go. But I never will forget, you're talking about governors and relationship with them, I never will forget when I, I think I called a press conference and called upon the governor to, to call a special session of the legislature to address workman's comp. And Governor Collins, and Don Blandford, and myself got on a Learjet, and we were flying to Detroit to meet with the chairman of the board, as I recall now, of Ford Motor Company, when they were, when they were 02:36:00threatening to pull out of Louisville, or at least to take, oh a bunch of jobs out of there, and of course you've got the Ford truck plant there. But there was, there was contention there, and we were going to meet with the chairman of the board of Ford Motor Company at that time about what we could do with regard to incentives and what we were willing to do, and of course, I could just generally say I believe the Senate will do this if you will stay or if you'll create these jobs, and again I don't remember what--but the thing I do remember, I think we, other than a brief greeting, like, "Good morning speaker," "good morning governor," and, oh, but neither one of them at that point wanted a special session. And I don't believe as I recall, I remember at the time, that I don't think they had any conversation with me until 02:37:00we landed in Detroit. I mean, that's how icy and cool it was on that, on that plane, because here's this upstart president of the Senate, president pro-tem of the Senate as we called it at that time, forcing us to, or trying to force us to have a special session. Of course the Democrats were right on that issue, and ultimately they did, she did call a session.

MOYEN: Um-hm. I read where Don Blandford said something like, "Well, there's no reason to call a special session if you don't have anything prepared to do." Would that be inaccurate? Was there a goal in mind?

ROSE: Oh there was already a goal in mind, and, and about what we were going to do, and I mean maybe they weren't privy to it, and I'm sure they weren't, even though I'm sure there had been committee meetings or whatever, but we pretty much knew what it, what we wanted to do. As I 02:38:00recall, and again, this has been a long time ago, and when I close the page up, I pretty much forget it, but as I recall, there was a special assessment on worker's comp that was getting really, really high for the average business person out here, and much of that was, was put in there by the coal interests, that's where all the problems were with the black lung, because the benefits were so lucrative that basically anybody that had been in a mine, at some point then could file for black lung, and all the business in Kentucky was paying for that. So the thing that I came up with, and I remember telling Ed O'Daniel to draft it in that manner that on the special fund, that business, or classification of business, occupations, would pay into the special 02:39:00fund, based upon their exposure that they had put into the special fund. So that meant then at that point, and the legislation was drafted that way and passed that way, that meant that if, and, I think the breakdown was that, that, oh, I don't remember whether it was all the rest of the business, I guess had put two-thirds of that in there, or maybe it was the other way around, but I remember the breakdown was one-third coal or two-thirds coal versus one-third business, the rest of business and two-thirds rest of business. So that's what they paid into the special fund from that point on. Well, of course that meant that the coal had to pick up a major, major part of it. But they were, you know, they were the ones creating the problem.

MOYEN: Um-hm, um-hm.

ROSE: So yeah, you know, the speaker didn't want the session, and the governor didn't want the session, and we forced the session, and of 02:40:00course passed something.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Now, when you dealt with the worker's comp and the coal issues, where were people like Senator Kelsey Friend and other eastern Kentuckians who may have had you know some political support from miners or miners unions, were they okay with saying, "Okay, the companies pay this," or did they not like that because it meant that, coal in general--

ROSE: Well, I think it was a mixed bag for them. They, on the one hand, they didn't mind big coal getting hit for these assessments, but the result of the assessments was that ultimately, uh, the benefits to the workers couldn't be that great, you know, because that's what created the problem in the first place. So you know, I think Kelsey Friend and people like that, and I don't remember how he ultimately voted on the legislation, but I think as astute as he was and savvy as he was, 02:41:00I'm sure he knew that anything that put more of the burden on coal, ultimately would result in decreased benefits for workers, for mine workers.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: But as I say, I can't remember at this point how he came down on it. But of course in those days, uh, you had Democrats, such as myself and Joe Wright, and people like that that supported business to a great degree. And then of course you had Republican, the thing, at that point, there was not the contention between Democrats and Republicans that there developed later on. At that point, you know, you're pretty much assured that unless it's somebody from eastern Kentucky that was identified with coal miners that was a, or coal interests, that was 02:42:00a Republican, they were going to be on the side of general business, you know. So it wasn't any trouble to get the votes to pass that legislation--and it was the right thing to do. You know, there's no reason, there's no reason for all the business to subsidize one other business.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: You know, that business needs to be able to stand on its own economically.

MOYEN: In ensuing sessions there was more reform on worker's comp issues. What gaps were there? Did you see any gaps at the time, or in retrospect, with that legislation that would lead to further debate about the workman's comp issues?

ROSE: Well, no, that pretty much stopped the unfunded liability in the special fund. You know, there were subsequent, uh, sessions on workman's comp, and you know, when Patton was elected, and I don't 02:43:00guess he ever said anything about it in the campaign, but he passed, which I'm a very pro-business Democrat, but, and he's supposed to be a pro-union governor, but he passed legislation there that just went way too far as far as penalizing workers, you know, and, and then came back and tried to undo that in the last session. But there is always, you see, you never get through dealing with an issue. You know, 1990 education reform fixed it forever. Well forget it, you know, because there's always, there is always adjustments that need to be made. With worker's comp, or if you're dealing with a labor-business issue, the pendulum swings and swings too far, and you're got to pull it back over here, and it goes too far that way, you've got to pull it back. So you know, but I think what we did, if we had not forced that issue in, I 02:44:00guess it was '87, the fall of '87 or '88.

MOYEN: Um-hm, '87.

ROSE: Eighty-seven. If we hadn't forced that issue, then business was getting ready to get in a real sad state of affairs here in Kentucky, and would've, would have, well I'm not sure you'd have had Toyota or any of those things if we hadn't addressed that issue.

MOYEN: Um-hm. You mentioned the cool reception--

ROSE: Um-hm.

MOYEN: that you had from the governor and Mr. Blandford. How did you or other senators eventually convince them to go along with this plan?

ROSE: Well, because public opinion was on our side. You can't, I don't care how strong you are or who you are, if you're on the wrong side it will eventually run over you. And I think they finally decided that, 02:45:00"Look, this is going to happen, they forced our hand, let's don't get run over by the train." Because the momentum was building, of course, that, you had the, you had the chamber of commerce, and you even had, you even had some of the labor people that saw that this couldn't go on, you know, and, and this special, this special fund, this unfunded liability there couldn't go on, it was going to break everybody, so even if they thought maybe there's a chance that down the road benefits are going to be reduced, some benefits are better than none. If all these companies are going to fold because of the unfunded liability, then we don't have anything anyway, so it--and we pretty much had the sense that we were right, in that momentum would be on our side once we forced the issue.

MOYEN: Um-hm. At what point did you, I mean maybe it was what you mentioned to me before, at what point did you realize that in a sense, if you want to talk about it in this sense, that you are now a major player? When you're talking about flying in a Learjet with the governor and Speaker of the House to talk to a chairman at Ford. Was it that? Or were there other things where it clicks that, wow, there's a lot of power and responsibility here.

ROSE: Oh I think I knew there was, there was a lot of responsibility there; uh, I never did, I never did, contrary to what some people's thought or said, I never did think of myself as, as a major player, because Eck Rose, or no one individual, is strong enough of a 02:47:00personality, or come up with ideas to do that on their own. This was, this was the coalition of Senate Democrats that I had there, along with a few Republicans. Now, did I try to move them from time to time? Did I try to say, "This is something we need to look at," or whatever? Yes I did that. But believe me, one single legislator that has no power whatsoever when the Senate's not in session, could do these things by themselves. It was a group of people there that for a short period of time saw needs in this state, and in many instances, because of a void of leadership from the state level, that assumed that role. But as far as me thinking, "Well I'm a big deal, I'm on this and that," 02:48:00that doesn't, that never occurred to me that, "Well boy, now you are a major player."

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: I'm a player as long as I have the support and as long as I'm marching in conjunction with these other people that are behind me.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: When I left the Senate, I made a spa--, a speech there in my parting day, and I said, you know, I, I got credit for a lot of things that you people did. I said, "You should have gotten the credit. I got the credit, I got the publicity, and I didn't deserve it." And I said, "On the other hand, I took a lot of hell for stuff you all did that I did not deserve either."

MOYEN: (Laughs), uh-huh.

ROSE: "But I was the front person, you all were the ones doing it, I 02:49:00just happened to be there to either get the praise or take the heat." And that's what, you know, that's what that's about. That's what being president of the SSenate is supposed to be about, you know. I wasn't elected governor, I was elected by my peers here to represent them. So I never did consider myself as being a player in, in my own right. I, I was, I was the front man for a bunch of folks that I agreed with.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Well, with that position that you were able to hold, the, or what I would assume to be, that took a very different tone when Wallace Wilkinson was elected governor in that it may not have been 02:50:00you in particular, but the Senate Democrats as a whole, when he comes to office, he's not like Martha Layne Collins, obviously in, "Well this is okay the way it is." He definitely is trying to, what history books might call, "Go back to the old style governor," where he can take power. Do you recall--and set the agenda, totally by himself. Do you recall your first--let me ask you this, what conversations or interaction did you have with Wallace Wilkinson before he ever became governor? Did you talk with him very much?

ROSE: One time, I don't remember, and again, he was, he was kind of an outsider, I think I didn't do a whole lot, but I was supporting Brown, 02:51:00I ran into him somewhere, and I can't recall where it was. And he, obviously he knew who I was, and I knew who he was, even though we'd not formally been introduced, you know, and he said, "Everybody over your way keeps wanting to know who Eck Rose is for." And I said something like, "I'm for Governor Brown, Mr. Wilkinson," and that was about the extent of it. And then I never had another meeting with him until, I think he had already been elected governor in the November election, and it seems like there was a special session that came up then. Oh 02:52:00I, that was the worker's comp session, of course, yeah, that's what we talked about before, and he wanted to have some input in that--

MOYEN: Because he was the governor elect.

ROSE: Right. Right. He was the governor elect, and started wanting to have some input on that, and, but I, and I don't, he didn't seem to take offense to it, but I remember meeting down there in the hotel with him, but I think that that, at that point, the message was to him, I don't know whether it was in so many words or not, but the message that we were trying to convey to him was, you know, this is a legislative issue, Governor Collins is still in office, and--maybe this was right before the election or something, but I remember him getting somewhat involved in that and wanting to do something, and we, we politely didn't do it.

MOYEN: Okay. So once he is elected, you did pre-file a bill to limit 02:53:00PAC contributions, The Political Action Committees, and the money that they could give. And you described one of the PACs that Wilkinson had received a lot of money from as a veiled threat to legislators if they didn't vote a certain way. Can you expand on that?

ROSE: Yeah he, they, he was creating this PAC that he said he was going to use in legislative races, as I recall, and you know, of course an incoming governor can raise a bunch of money. And of course, he started raising money to pay off his loans that he made to the campaign, and I also introduced another bill that said after election day, you can no longer recoup any money you spent in that legislative cycle. So he, 02:54:00you know, this got to be, I don't know, like a chess game or something, he's raising money to, and I think he was trying to intimidate the legislators, you know, you either be for me and for my programs or I'm going to beat you with this big pile of money. And then you know it, here I'm sitting over there, so I'm saying, "Well, I'm not going to let my people be intimidated by this big pile of money. We will limit the amount that they can give to a candidate." I think that's what my legislation did, like $4,000 or something as I recall. So, you know, he, and, I guess that was the first time, first affair, contentious relationship was, was when, was over those two bills.

MOYEN: Would you have been able to learn from the LRC, or did you know at the time, if Kentucky was, in a sense, behind the times in limiting PAC contributions? I was surprised when I saw there were essentially no limits on contributions at the time. Was that a rarity, or was Kentucky--

ROSE: Yeah, I'm not, at that time, I wasn't, at that time, I wasn't, I think I first started attending some of these Southern Legislative Conference meetings, and I wasn't, it wasn't like--and that's never been my nature, to compare what we're doing with what somebody else is doing. Here in this car dealership, I could care less what they're doing down the street, how much they're spending advertising or whatever. I want to do what works for me, and what's right for me and, but I just thought it was, and I could see the potential abuse that 02:56:00could be created with this PAC. Here's a sitting governor with the ability to raise millions of dollars to put it in his PAC, and with being able to say, "Okay, I want, I want $200,000 of it to go over here to beat Marshall Long," or whoever. So I said, "We've got to stop this. Put a stop to this right now. So now whether I, whether I was aware of, of what other states did as far as limiting contributions from PACs, I can't say at this point.

MOYEN: Um-hm. You mentioned going to some of the Southern Legislative Conferences and stuff, can you tell me, could you describe exactly what it is you did there and what types of things you could learn that would be helpful?

ROSE: Oh they, they, the Southern Legi--, Southern Legislative Conference is, is one branch of the four branches, or not branches really but regions of the Council of State Governments, which, that is 02:57:00headquartered in Lexington, Kentucky. I don't know how many employees they've got now, but many. And of course my initial involvement in this was I think in 1987, about that time they were talking about moving from Lexington, which would have had a major impact economically because of all those jobs that were there, and then plus you have all these state officials that fly into Lexington to do business, or to get knowledgeable about whatever, you know, so it was an economic thing that got my first, my first involvement with it. But it basically is a, is seventeen states, including Puerto Rico that, that go together, and they, they have an annual meeting every year and then they have regional meetings, and they focus on, on issues, and have these 02:58:00seminars, have world renowned speakers, and qualified, qualified it in these various areas to tell you what's on the cutting edge, what other states are doing, what would work, what wouldn't work and whatever. So it, you know, it, and of course it got a lot of bad publicity, because time to time they would have the convention at Orlando, Florida, and the legislator would end up taking his wife and kids, and the Lexington Herald would say, "Well, they're traveling on state money." Well yeah, true, the, the room was paid for the legislator, and if the convention wanted to say the family can stay there for the price of the legislator, maybe you know they were, but that all, you know, gets blown out of proportion. Now, some of that stuff is, some of the things they report is legitimate, and others is not. I eventually was elected chairman of 02:59:00that organization, and was a very enjoyable thing, I think that was '9- -, I don't know, '93 or -4, something, and so, but that's what they do.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Did you feel like there was anything, I know that you said you don't like to compare, but were there any opportunities for you to say, "Hey, this is what Tennessee or North Carolina is doing, that would be a good idea to implement here."

ROSE: Oh I guess the closest thing I ever came to doing that was, was when I repeatedly pointed out the, the commitment that, especially North Carolina had made years ago in education and research, and Kentucky sat around here and did nothing, and I don't know how many 03:00:00people is aware, but like thirty years ago, maybe a little longer than that, but Kentucky, Tennessee, and North Carolina were all the same size. And now North Carolina has probably got, I don't know, probably, what eight million people? Or--

MOYEN: Maybe nine, I think.

ROSE: Nine or something. Tennessee's probably got five or six or whatever, and we've got four or whatever, but it's, and you know, basically, geographically the same, natural resources the same, everything's the same except for the commitment to try to push their state educationally and economically, and we've blown eight more years.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: Eight more years. I mean we've done, we've just sat here and done absolutely nothing. Squandered close to a billion dollars in surplus funds that were there in 1997 and now talking about raising taxes, built 03:01:00a bunch of things that we don't even have the money to operate, such as golf courses out here in the county, and talking about raising taxes.

MOYEN: All right, let me get back to what we were talking about before, and that was some of the legislation that you had pre-filed before the legislative session in '88. And when you realize that there's going to be some tension here with Wallace Wilkinson, what were your initial ideas or thoughts on his style and, or his leadership style and how that was going to play out, and did that change over time?

ROSE: Oh I, I guess I knew, in business you know I'd run into a loft of 03:02:00people with the leadership style of Wallace Wilkinson, I knew how they operated or whatever. So it wasn't, it wasn't something unexpected. The, I guess the unexpected thing with, with Wilkinson was that it didn't change over time. He, he ended up the last day the same way he went in. Now, most people that are very successful, and particularly that get into the public arena, political arena, will modify that a little. Say, "Look, this, this is not working, I've got to back up and do this or that," but he never did. He was tenacious from the day he got there, and he left the same way.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: Left the same way. I never will forget one of his top lieutenants came to me and they, that was '92, I guess that was his last chance to get succession, and he said, "Are you going to push succession through for us?" And of course, you know, I wasn't for it, including the, the incumbent governor, and I wasn't real big on it including anybody, I just, I'm still not real big on succession. I think the last eight years will prove it hasn't been, hasn't been of great benefit to the state. But you know he, they came to me and said, "Are you going to push this through for us?" And I said, "No sir, I'm not going to do that." And he said, "Well, if you don't," said, "you, we're going to try to beat you." This was in '94, I guess it was, I was up for reelection in '94, said, "we're going to try to beat you," and I said, 03:04:00"well, you know, we work together." And of course, you know nobody wants a race, and I thought, well maybe I can talk him out of it. I said, "Well, you know, we work together on a lot of issues, work together well, why do you want to try to beat me over this one thing that you disagree with? Why do you want to solicit a candidate and run against me? And he said--

[End of Tape 2, Side 2]

[Begin Tape 3, Side 1]

MOYEN: Go ahead.

ROSE: So this was in 1990, right prior to the session and, or right prior to the filing deadline, and I said, "We, we've worked together on so many things, why are you so intent on beating me?" He said, "Well, I think the governor feels like that if he has to go, he wants to take some of you all with him" (Moyen laughs). I said, "Well, I guess 03:05:00that's fair enough." Just said, "Just, we'll have a go at it, and see how it turns out." So you know, again it would have been very easy, and for me to say, "Okay, I'll support it and do whatever I can, don't give me any opposition," but you know if it meant taking out two or three months of my life to do what I thought was right, I'm going to do it. I wasn't going to be intimidated by them saying they're going to try to beat me, and of course again, they could raise a lot of money. Ultimately it didn't, I don't think it happened, I don't think they spent that much against me, and I raised what then was a record for a Senate race, over $100,000.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: And again, it was the same issue I had, and this was 1990, had the same issue in 1997, do you want a state senator elected by you, or do you want one campaigned by the governor? Which do you want? You know, 03:06:00same old issue that I used for twenty years to stay in the Senate.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Do, would it be fair to say, in some respects, you were talking about the speech that you made on your last day in the Senate, and getting credit for certain things or whatever, would you say that it's fair that in some ways, Wallace Wilkinson helped give you credit for a stronger leader in the Senate by challenging you on issues like running candidates against you because you won't vote for something, and then you saying, "Okay" and winning.

ROSE: Oh yeah, I think if they, if they, if Wilkinson, I didn't have that much, it was right at the end of the Collins's term, as I say other than that cool reception that we had on the way to Detroit, I 03:07:00don't, she had I never had a cross word in our life. Of course with Wilkinson and Jones, there was a lot of contention, but yeah there's no question if that hadn't, and they thought that was with, to a certain extent, they thought that was with Eck Rose. That wasn't with Eck Rose, that was with this group of people around here that Eck Rose was the focal point for it.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: So yeah, I think if it hadn't have been for that, then certainly there would have never have been, never have been this perception that, that there is of Rose.

MOYEN: Um-hm. The opening day of the session, Wilkinson addressed the legislature. His first session that he was going to be governor. Do you recall anything about that at all, and what type of tone it may 03:08:00have set?

ROSE: No, not really, I can't, I don't remember that. I think the tone had already, as I recall, it didn't, it didn't just come from that speech, there was already some things going on, but I can't recall if it, the point where it broke down.

MOYEN: Can you think of any specific instances where, other instances where you either talked with the governor, or had other senators talking to you saying, "This seems like a concern here."

ROSE: You mean on succession?

MOYEN: Well, I was thinking on, on the general tone, what was being set for that legislative session?

ROSE: In as it relates between myself and Wilkinson?

MOYEN: Um-hm. Or the Senate and Wilkinson.

ROSE: We had a, Wilkinson and I had a lot of mutual friends. We had 03:09:00a lot of people that, that wanted very badly for us to be on the same page all the time. So from time to time one or more of them would come to me and talk to me about our relationship or whatever, but you know, most of it, most of the contention, and in fact I cannot, other than us trying to, and again I say "us," us trying to push him to, to be for some meaningful educational reform, and to be for funding that. The only other point of contention I think we ever had was this succession thing. And he was just obsessed with it. I mean, he was obsessed that he was going to be a two term governor, after saying all during his 03:10:00campaign and even for a short time I think after that, "I want to be governor one time," you know. And then all of the sudden he decides he wants to be two times, but that basically was, was the problem, and of course we had, and I wasn't in legislative leadership at the time, but Brown had came in the same way, and then the legislature proposed a constitutional amendment for succession, and the sitting governor was on that, and the public, the voters defeated it.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: So you know, we, even the one, even the people in the legislature that supported succession, which as I said I never was a big proponent of that, and still not, because I think it's very difficult to beat a 03:11:00sitting governor, and you get one that's not performing, and they're just going to perform for eight years instead of four, but the voters defeated the amendment with the sitting governor, who was Brown at that time, on it. So we were sure that that would happen again, so even the people that supported succession would not be on a succession amendment with the sitting governor on it.

MOYEN: Right.

ROSE: And you know, I don't know how many people, "Well, I agree with you Rose, Wilkinson," and even the press, editorial writers. "Wilkinson doesn't need to be on it, but pass the succession." Well I said, "Now look, you don't, you're asking quite a bit of me here, you know, you've got this sitting governor there, and I say I'm going to throw this in your face, and we're going to pass succession, but you're not going to be on it," you know. Which was, you know that's utopia, that's pie in the sky, that can't happen.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Now, did things begin, you just mentioned that there 03:12:00weren't that many points of tension between you, but this one, primarily succession. That didn't get raised, or didn't become very heated until, as best I could tell from reading newspapers, until March of '88, that first session. So some time had gone by. Were things more pleasant up until the issue with succession?

ROSE: Oh I wouldn't, no, I wouldn't say they were pleasant at all. That, it may not, it may not have got out in the press, but that started almost immediately from the start of the session, that he was pushing for this succession and keeping the pressure on, keep the pressure on, keep the pressure on. And practically every meeting that we had, he would bring it up.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: In fact, I remember going down to the governor's mansion in 03:13:00the basement, and eating there, eating breakfast there, and this was something we did every Monday morning, I believe it was, and I remember Governor Wilkinson looking over at Joe Wright and said, said, "How, how is succession going?" And Joe said, I don't know, something to the effect that, "Well not too good, governor," something like that, and he said, "Eck, how's it going?" I said, "Governor, it's never been a priority of mine." And he just threw his papers like that and said, "Well, we're through." And everybody got (laughs), and it was a big, it was funny, oh, I think it's Karem said, "I was just getting my sweet roll (Moyen laughs), when you all broke the party up," you know. But, 03:14:00and of course, he got Wright some opposition in that session because he wouldn't, I think ultimately what he pulled, the guy pulled out or something, I don't remember. I don't think he stayed in the race, but he was trying to leverage him just like he tried to leverage me in 1990.

MOYEN: Um-hm. One of the things that was mentioned was attaching amendments to that legislation that would also add a couple of years to tenure of house term.

ROSE: Oh yeah. They, yeah, they, of course some of them were wanting to, and this is the old, the old deal that goes on in Frankfort, and I guess every place that people meet and politics of some nature's discussed, of you get something and I'll get something and whatever. They floated the deal out there that it would give senators, I think 03:15:00six year terms and house members four year terms, and all that kind of, and that's, you know, that's enticing--here you've got somebody that doesn't really like to run every four years, and they think, well they can stay in there six years, but that was something, and I don't recall who threw it out. I don't know whether Wilkinson did that, or some of his men, and some of his supporters in legislature or whatever, but say, "Okay, we can go along with it if we get something out of it."

MOYEN: Uh-huh.

ROSE: But again, as I stated in this interview before, I was never into this thing of, "Let's trade around here and I'll get something."

MOYEN: Um-hm, um-hm.

ROSE: If it's good for the people, fine, we can all get something that way, but not trying to get something personally, or that's going to benefit them politically.

MOYEN: In March of 1988, there were reports in newspapers about--

ROSE: Nineteen eighty-eight.

MOYEN: Yes 1988, about te--, and you didn't respond to any questions 03:16:00about it, but other unnamed senators did about telephone conversation that you had that had upset a number of senators that you had shared what went on. Do you recall what you all talked about?

ROSE: Oh, I recall that very vividly, and I'm going to do this for you, I don't think I've ever done this before, but so that it gets at least my version of it. I got the phone call, at least my version of the phone call, he said, "Eck, this is the governor," said, "are you going to pass that succession?" And I said, "Governor, I don't see any support for succession," and I'm paraphrasing here a little, but to the effect of "you either pass it or I'm going to get you, and I'm going to 03:17:00get your buddy too." Well my buddy was Joe Wright of course, and I knew who he was talking about. And so he, he was, now, you know, I don't, I'm not saying he meant he was going to get me physically or something.

MOYEN: Right.

ROSE: I think it was what, ultimately was, when they, when they ran the opponent against Joe, you know, he's going to beat me and he's going to beat Joe or whatever, and he went on and on there, and I finally, I said, and I had to do it kind of forcefully to get him to, you know, back off. I said, "You know, ever since you've got elected all I've heard is that, that you're going to do this to me or do that to me if I don't help you do something. It's been a threat, or intimidation, and you've tried to leverage me from the day you got elected," I said, 03:18:00"now, don't call me anymore." I said, "Don't waste your time." I said, "From now on, and don't send anybody to me, you know, from now on, just whatever you think you can do that you want to do, you try to do it," and I said, "forget this phone calls, forget sending people to me, don't threaten me anymore, you just do whatever it is you want to do to Eck Rose, and let's get on with it." So that was the extent of the conversation. And that was, and he talked about that, I think several times, and said that was the biggest mistake he made when he was governor was, was the phone call he made. He never did relate what was in it, but that's exactly what was in it.

MOYEN: When you said that did he respond?

ROSE: Well I probably, knowing me, I probably just politely hung the phone up after I got through talking, I was through talking at that point. I wasn't going to be leveraged, I wasn't going to be 03:19:00intimidated, I wasn't going to be threatened. If he can take me out because of what I believe in and my principles, just as finally happened in 1997, I'm ready to go.

MOYEN: Uh-huh.

ROSE: You know, I'm not going to be, not going to be leveraged to stay in position of president of the Senate.

MOYEN: Right. Um-hm. Shortly after that phone conversation, you gave a real short, I think it was five minute floor speech that Herald-Leader called essentially a statement of legislative independence, and you got a standing ovation afterwards. Do you remember what was involved in that short speech?

ROSE: No, I don't even remember that speech. I remember the one--no, it'90 when I gave this state of the legislature.

MOYEN: Legislature. Yeah, this is a different one.

ROSE: Unh-uh. No, I surely don't. I don't recall, I don't recall doing that.

MOYEN: Okay.

ROSE: If the Herald-Leader said I did it, I'm sure I did (both laugh), but I don't recall.

MOYEN: It was you know, it was real brief.

ROSE: Yeah.

MOYEN: Let's kind of switch gears here and talk about what really began in '88, or a little before that, with education reform, but in June of '88, Franklin Circuit Court Judge Ray Corns ruled in favor of these sixty-six counties who had brought suit saying funding of educational systems is unconstitutional. You had some issues with that ruling, do you remember what was involved with that?

ROSE: I can't. I was trying to reflect the other day when they filed suit again, I remember some of the, some of the problem I had with the ruling, and of course then that precipitated the legislature to counter 03:21:00sue, or to appeal really is what it meant, which ended up in the decision Rose vs. Council, where we said, and basically as I recall at that time, we were saying, "Yes, we need to, we need to," in this initial ruling, see, by Corns, just said we wasn't funding enough.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: So we challenged that and said that we don't agree with that. We agree that we are, yes, we're, maybe we need to put more money in it, but they are misusing some of the money, they're doing various things with the money, or that's not all of the problems with education. So then, and that's, as I recall, that was some of the problems that I expressed, or some of the opinions I expressed at that initial ruling. 03:22:00And in fact, now let me go back now, see, that initial ruling Prather was president pro-tem of the Senate, and then I got inserted when Prather quit. Now, I think if you'll research this a little, you'll find that this initial ruling probably came in '86.

MOYEN: Okay.

ROSE: And then when I got to be president of the Senate, then we appealed that ruling, and then it came, it came back that the whole system of education was thrown out.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: That, that everything relating to education was thrown out, and had to be redone and redone with funding. But I, those are the things that I recall now, and of course my contention was that if, that if we, if we, and we being the legislature, because the House was part of 03:23:00this too, but I think it was primarily the Senate that was forcing the issue, but if we'd agree just to pump in another $50 million a year or something, then you would never have had education reform. There were a lot of folks, including the people that sued, the school district that sued, that's all they wanted, they wanted some money. Now, if we'd have done that, then we'd still have the same old system of education. So that was, that was one point there that I recall raising.

MOYEN: And another point that I think was an issue in the June '88 ruling, was that Judge Ray Corns appointed a committee to advise the Senate or the legislature on school finance. That that may have been--

ROSE: I had problems with that, I think.

MOYEN: Uh-huh. That that was a legislative function, not a judicial function.

ROSE: Right, right. It can't be both, you know. It can't be, if 03:24:00he's going to appoint people to do it, then it's not a legislative responsibility.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: You know, I do recall having a problem with that.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Did that exist at all with the final Supreme Court ruling, or was that--

ROSE: No. huh-uh. That was, that, the whole thing was thrown out, and no, that wasn't, that wasn't the issue. Some, some of the other, I had trouble with the wording, and still do, of, of--the way it came down, I think with Corns's thing, it said that there had to be equal and adequate, and whatever across the state, and every, every child had to have equal access to an adequate education, that's what it was. Okay, then they came back with a ruling that said that, which meant then at that point, then the money would all have to be raised from the 03:25:00state level, and proportioned out equally to every child in a school system in Kentucky. But they kept that ruling, but then expanded on it to say that local districts can go beyond and raise money, and spend it locally.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: Well that means then at that point that this child out here in the district that the board chose not to raise additional money, they no longer have equal opportunity, so there's still plenty of things about that ruling that, you know, the courts have just ignored for years and whatever that there is still, and was inherent in the legislation that we had before and the legislation that we passed in '90, it was inherent in that, that there was not going to be equal access to an adequate education.

MOYEN: Um-hm. And the wealthier districts, I would assume, would be the ones that would be able to raise--

ROSE: Right, exactly.

MOYEN: the extra--

ROSE: Exactly. And of course, I made that point all during that thing, you know, even if we, even if we equalized all of it now, and gave these wealthy ones the opportunity to do that, five years down the road, or ten years down the road you've got the same situation.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Did you feel like that educational reform helped the relationship that the governor had with the legislature, because it began to focus you on something that had to be done?

ROSE: Well it, yes and no. It helped a little, but you know, I think, I think Wilkinson basically wanted to increase educational opportunities in Kentucky for kids, I don't think he wanted to raise any money to do 03:27:00it, because he promised not to raise taxes and do it with the lottery. But this is something that, this is something that is forgotten, and I never hear it brought up anymore, the, when Governor Wilkinson died, they'd given him praise, and rightfully so, giving him praise for education reform, but the, one of the contingencies that he put on being for any legis--, any educational reform was when he called us down there and said he would go along, and again, this is something the legislature had already put together, we'd already put the package together, he would go along with it and sign it if we would pass his, I think it was $100 million road bond issue to go to his cronies across 03:28:00the state, you know. And you know, that was, I told you I didn't trade or compromise or whatever, I did in that instance, go along with his road bond issue, even though everything else being equal I probably wouldn't have, but with the thought in the back of my mind that I would attach some, what I considered very significant transportation accountability to that road bond issue, and I did that in that session. I felt my good friend Milo Bryant was going to fall out of a balcony when I did that, but that's another story.

MOYEN: Uh-huh. You had a number of meetings with the governor and Don Blandford dealing with education reform, what would become KERA. Do you recall what types of things that you discussed in those meetings, 03:29:00and did they always stay on education reform?

ROSE: Yeah, I think for the most part they did. I don't, I think most of the time we had the rest of leadership in there too. I don't recall just having Wilkinson and Blandford and myself in very many of them. But going in, the House was very apprehensive about where we were headed, uh, I think everybody, including the Senate, was a little apprehensive about the money we were going to have to raise to implement significant reforms and--but it all worked, it all worked, you know to the best. There is a lot of people that helped to make that thing successful, and people that really didn't get a lot of publicity at the time. Kenny Rapier was very instrumental; Charlie 03:30:00Berger, I talked to you before, very instrumental in passing that. But I, I don't, I don't recall any, I don't recall any meetings of just myself and Wilkinson and Blandford that were contentious in any way.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Okay. You didn't, but at one point I found somewhere where Blandford had said that the governor was trying to focus on his narrow program for education reform, as opposed to getting input from a bunch of different groups. Do you recall anything that would validate that comment? Was the governor set on just a couple things that he wanted with this reform?

ROSE: Oh yeah, I think, I don't recall, I just have to reflect and just say in general what I still believe to be his, his goal, I think 03:31:00his goal was not to have to raise much money, and maybe even find the money some other way, lottery or whatever, and then I think, I think he just wanted to, I think Blandford was right, he wanted to do some very specific things, but I don't think he ever envisioned, he ever envisioned far reaching reform like we did. As I recall his, he was pushing some kind of accountability thing or something, I can't remember exactly what that would entail.

MOYEN: And one of his big points was that they would reward districts that kept showing improvement.

ROSE: Yeah exactly, yeah, right. He wanted to create a pile of money there that, that gave it, gave them money if they showed improvement.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: Which, ultimately was part of the legislation, or something similar to that, but it was far, far beyond that.

MOYEN: Right. Well, beyond that, we talked about this a little from the perspective of that some school districts could get more money above and beyond, but when the Supreme Court ruled that the funding system was inequitable, a number of legislators talked about some of the problems that were already there with the money situation. Do you know, or could you describe some of those things that were concerns for senators or legislators in general about making sure that the funding that went there wasn't being abused, or the way property tax evaluations were going on, do you remember some of your concerns about that?

ROSE: Yeah I, I remember, you know, there were things like, and that's what, nepotism, they had, the central office would have all these folks 03:33:00that were either politically connected or family connected with the superintendent or whatever, and they'd have them all in these big high salaries, and one family would control the whole educational system and take, and take these monies. The Lexington Herald, as I recall, did an expose on, on well-connected people that might have a home there that cost $500,000 to build, and they were assessed at $50,000, you know, and all these things were, and there were a lot of stories came out there, and a lot of illustrations of things that, at least on the surface didn't appear to be right, and I think that helped to build the momentum for the major and extensive reform that we ended up doing.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: And I remember, you know, of course everybody was trying to protect this and that and their own little areas, I remember making a speech, even before this ruling that we would never have educational excellence in Kentucky until the groups within education quit trying to protect their turf or until the General Assembly had the fortitude to redefine their turf. And of course I think that's basically what we ended up doing in 1990, we redefined that turf and what, you know, everybody wanted to stop this or that, the teachers wanted to do this to the school boards, or the school boards wanted to do this to somebody or the teachers and whatever, and every session go down there, and it's still that way to a certain extent, but we put it pretty much in shape 03:35:00in 1990. There's been some erosion of that, and maybe we went a little too far in some respects, and some of that's been corrupted, but--

MOYEN: In retrospect, is there, or are there any parts of KERA that you think it's clear now that maybe we shouldn't have gone that far, or done in particular?

ROSE: I don't know of any part of it that I would have wanted to change, done differently.

MOYEN: Okay. At one point when you were putting together a group of people to coordinate this educational reform, I believe that you asked Walter Baker to serve on this group with you, and some people in the Republican leadership were upset that you hadn't asked them, and said that that was intentional, that you were trying to slight the 03:36:00Republican leadership. Why did you choose Walter Baker, was there any reasons why you didn't check--

ROSE: I don't recall, but you know, Walter Baker was, to a large extent, never considered a Democrat or Republican or whatever, and I just don't recall at this point what it was about. I vaguely remember there being some controversy about me appointing Baker to something. You know I, we tried to, during my tenure there, we tried to include, include people that wanted to have a positive input on the legislation. But if, if I knew where I wanted to go, and the Democratic members, or the majority of the Senate wanted to go somewhere, I was never big on, on 03:37:00putting people on a committee or something that wanted to dilute or to negate the positive things that we were trying to do, just put them on there to pick at what we're trying to do. Is that undemocratic? I hope not. But that's, that's the way, you know, that's the way I perceived it. And it wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't like this was going to be the end, and whatever this committee or group decided was going to prevail, you know, they still had to have the full scrutiny of the Senate and whatever, and it would be no more different than the Republicans wanting to have a Republican committee, and they did that from time to time, or appoint some people, or have a group of people meet on such and such an issue. But I don't remember the particulars of that.

MOYEN: Okay. At the same time as you were dealing with educational 03:38:00reform, obviously issues of funding came up, and Wilkinson said that he, that no new taxes were needed, that what you could do was close the loopholes essentially, and I think you may have gone on WLEX one morning and said essentially what we're talking about will be a tax increase. Did other senators feel that same way, or was the general sentiment, yeah, let's just try and close these loopholes and see if we can come up with the extra $450 million a year that we need or whatever.

ROSE: Oh there, there was, you know, I, there was a lot of support, including me, of thinking if you could go do one, two little old things and get out of this mess, that that would be the expedient thing to do 03:39:00and that's what we ought to do, but we were far enough along at that point, and with these rulings, that, and again, it wasn't just me, it was a group of people there, but we were, we were far enough along in this thing that we thought this, this is probably going to be the only opportunity in fifty years or a hundred years or whatever to make some significant change in Kentucky's education system. So even if it meant, I think even if it meant, uh, political defeat, and I assume it did for a few people that supported that, uh, but we were at the point where we weren't going to do, close any loop holes and try to raise the money. Now, did I go on WLEX and say that that would be considered a 03:40:00tax increase? I suppose I did. And it would be for some people. But this, if I were doing that, it wasn't like that I was trying to avoid taxes, as I demonstrated later when I voted for that huge tax increase, but it was a way to, it was a way to get to the point to where we wanted to go, and we just didn't want some piecemeal reform, we, we could smell, smell the roses at that point, we thought we could, we could run this thing through even though the governor wasn't on board.

MOYEN: Um-hm. And you also did say in that interview that it may have also included a tax increase for the wealthiest Kentuckians, and, and what I was getting at was, was it the general sentiment, I mean, you understood that this was going to take significant money?

ROSE: Oh yeah.

MOYEN: Was that the general sentiment among everyone else, and just the governor didn't want to say that at the time, or--

ROSE: You mean, was that the sentiment among the other legislators? MOYEN: Um-hm, um-hm.

ROSE: Oh, I think they knew it was going to take significant money, I think it was probably two or three times larger than what they would have dreamed of in the end, and it was even, it ended up bigger than what I thought we'd be able to do. And it wasn't, it wasn't like we were just trying to see how much, how much we could put into it, but we developed the reform, and then we tried to get the money to fund it.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: And of course, some, in some areas we didn't, we didn't fund it, and they have never funded it, you know, and, but, it's probably worse shape in funding now than it was in 1990--I know it is. But again, if we hadn't started big, if we'd just put in as many, or similar to what the '85 session did in education, which now nobody, I can't even 03:42:00remember what it did.

MOYEN: Um-hm, um-hm.

ROSE: But I can remember the '90 one, because the magnitude was so much greater.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Around the time that all the educational reform was taking place, that was when you did face a challenge for your seat from Larry Black in--

ROSE: Back.

MOYEN: Sorry. Larry Back.

ROSE: Not a problem.

MOYEN: And--

ROSE: That was 1990, right? MOYEN: Right. Now, did he, did you know for certain that this was essentially set up by Wallace Wilkinson--

ROSE: Um-hm.

MOYEN: that he had sent someone to run against you?

ROSE: Yeah, because as I told you before, I had a meeting early on in that session in 1990 that said if you don't put succession through, we're going to try to beat you. And of course, Larry was a, was a close associate of Wilkinson, and you know, it was just general 03:43:00knowledge that he got him in the race. In fact, Larry was telling people that Wilkinson promised him a bunch of money if he would run against me to run, I don't know how much of that was forthcoming, but it, you know, it wasn't just rumor, it was fact.

MOYEN: Right. Um-hm. How did you fare in that election?

ROSE: Oh, I beat him even in his home county, and beat him even in his home precinct. Again, because the issues were on my side, and with the tax increase, of course they were trying to use that against me, but most of the people that, as far as I know, that were defeated over that issue were the ones that were apologetic about what they did.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: I approached it entirely differently basically because I wasn't 03:44:00apologetic. I thought it was the thing to do, I still believe it was the thing to do, and you know, when that was brought up as an issue in that campaign, and I was kind of like Patrick Henry, "Give me one life to give for my country," or whatever. I said, "If, if that gets me beat, fine, I still did the right thing. That was more important than me getting re-elected to the Senate. The ones that got beat, were, "Yeah, we shouldn't have, I probably shouldn't have done it, if I had it to do over, I wouldn't have raised all those taxes, and I wouldn't have done this to the school boards, and I wouldn't have done this," or whatever, you know. But the people that, the people that were forceful and defended what they did, they all fared well.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

ROSE: But the ones that started second guessing themselves, and there wasn't that many, but some of them, but yeah it was an issue there, and they tried to use it. But I won, I won that race like, I think I got 03:45:00sixty-seven percent of the vote to thirty-one percent, of thirty-two or thirty-six point something, thirty-three something, it was like two to one, but carried every county, it wasn't even close. And Larry's a nice, was a nice guy, but I just had the issues on my side, and very few presiding officers of legislative bodies are ever defeated in their home country--I mean, you might, they might not like you, but they admire the fact that, "Well, I'm from the 28th District, and my man's a president of the Senate," you know, you've got that going for you regardless of any anti-vote you were ordinarily going to get. It's kind of like old saying there, "You're an S.O.B., but he's our S.O.B.," you know, that, that kind of a deal.

MOYEN: Right. Not bad when other people say, hey, even the best can 03:46:00expect a third that just don't want incumbents or don't, you know--

ROSE: Right. Right.

MOYEN: want someone new in that--

ROSE: Right.

[End of interview]