Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History

Interview with Richard Turner, December 8, 2003

Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries
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MOYEN: in the legislature. Okay, we're talking about Old Regular Baptists.

TURNER: Well, see, you got a lot of them in east Kentucky. And they sing, absolutely sing with, they sing without music. And we, I know when I was a kid we used to go to a church, and we had singing schools. And they'd actually teach us how to sing the notes, you know, do- re-mi-fa-so-la-ti-do, do-ti-la-so-fa-mi-re-do, you know. We learned the different symbols and all that, and you could learn to just about sing anything if you learned the notes, you know, the symbols and so on. It was really interesting. I went to a lot of them when I was a kid, you know.

MOYEN: The Old Regular Baptist Church?

TURNER: Oh, well, the Regular Baptist, in this area. We're supposed to be Southern Baptist, but today the Southern has dropped off, and a lot of ours are just Independent Baptists in this area. And it was, now we have piano or we may not have a piano. You know, that's left to our 00:01:00discretion, and some churches didn't have enough money to have a piano, I might add too, you know. And then you'd sing without any, sometimes without even knowing, ever been to a singing school. You just sing, you know. And there's a lot of stories, a lot of interesting stories about, you know, the old churches, because that was the center of all activity in the community. It really was, you know. And one thing we were always taught to do, we were taught to go to the, whatever church it was in the community and to listen and be, you know, good citizens. It wasn't a divisive, mean or anything like that. We never thought about being critical of somebody's religion. I mean we, and as a result of that, I'm extremely tolerant of people, you know, and 00:02:00my kids are. And I know all my brothers and sisters are, but we went, we were, in this area we just had Baptists and Methodists and Church of Christ as a rule, and a few Church of God people come through and hold tent meetings in the woods. We used to do that too, you know. Arbor meetings, had that. And we, that's where we first saw a few women preachers, which was real foreign to us, you know. And, you know, we have, we're having now, in this area, a doctrinal problem with the women preachers now. And it's, it still isn't accepted in this area very well, you know. We've got a few, but not many. And some of the churches here still don't want the women to take part in the service, which I think is ridiculous because if you take the women out of the churches now, we don't have anything. A lot of the men won't go so the 00:03:00women is it, you know. So what you have then, you have a very narrow, few people making all the decisions, and that really hurts you. You got to get your best minds, and that's usually, in many cases, the women (both laugh). It's crazy. It is. We've had, in the church I go to, we've had that problem with a preacher trying to not let our women participate. We stopped that real fast. He is no longer with us. You know, he was a good preacher, but he, that was crazy.

MOYEN: Let me ask you this. When you were growing up with the, you talked about going to different churches and listening; was this true and were you cognizant of it at the time, that the ministers were in some respects the highly educated people in the community? Was that true or not true?

TURNER: They were, in many instances they were, but in, there was a, I don't know, probably in the late `40s and `50s, there was a group of 00:04:00people here that got into the churches, or you could call it, I guess you'd call it a clique in anything else but the church, that actually advocated, if the Lord called you to preach, he'll preach you. And I know we've had some arguments about that, some of us have. I, my thinking on that was that if the Lord called you to preach, that's wonderful. But He also said He didn't like lazy people, so if you didn't get, study to make yourself, it says "study to make yourself a servant, who need not be ashamed." So in that respect we, some of us took a dim view of having a, say, an ignoramus up there telling me how I am supposed to spend eternity, when he can't even read. You see my point?

MOYEN: Yeah.

TURNER: That become, as education improved, I think there was a demand, more of a demand, for better education. The older preachers were some of our best minds, there's no doubt about it, and your church leaders 00:05:00were, too. I thought so. The church I went to was that way. I have to give them high credit because, actually, they molded, they made me what I am, basically. I think that's a fact. Because we went three or four times a day to church, and we did. As I said before, you know, we'd go to Sunday school and church, one church, and then come up the road here to this other church, and go there in the evening sometimes, and then prayer meetings two or three times a week, you know. That was it, you know. That was it. And they were your better minds. But then you got, you had a group of people who, I hope it's losing its effect, but that were here for a while that did some of this, that actually said, you know, they believed, and some of them couldn't read at all. We've had people that could preach and couldn't read, you know. I 00:06:00remember one guy that used to preach, an old preacher, I think he was Methodist. Of course, the Methodist Church tightened up on that pretty fast, but I remember this one claimed he was Methodist. And he claimed that he was a preacher, and he would preach on, he always, his same sermon and the only sermon I ever heard him preach was on Lazarus and the, you know there was, Lazarus and the rich man. And he had that down, he had it all memorized, and he'd get up and he'd read, take the Bible as if he was reading, and he'd quote all that, and he never missed a dot, I might add. And then he would preach on it. And it was always the same sermon, so it got to be a joke because people knew that he was, that he couldn't read, you know. And that was being deceptive to start with, so it killed his effect, I think, you know. But he did 00:07:00it. So you can see that, you know, you don't hide much from people. People know. And they're, people are smarter than people think they are (both laugh). That's the first thing you got to learn-

MOYEN: That's right.

TURNER: about life, is that people are smarter than you think they are, I think (laughs).

MOYEN: Well, let's jump ahead here-

TURNER: Yes, sir.

MOYEN: and get into the, into your political career. One of the last things that we talked about was your race against Dr. Holcomb?

TURNER: Yes.

MOYEN: From Scottsville. Talked about how you used some television for that and some other things. Earlier that year, we didn't mention this, earlier that year there was some consideration, or at least mention, in various papers that you might be a candidate for lieutenant governor-

TURNER: Well, it was-

MOYEN: and that you spoke with Forgy about that, I believe.

TURNER: Well we, that was rumored. I don't know whether that was more 00:08:00local than it was statewide, but I had some support statewide. I did have. I did. But I was pretty active and pretty vocal and, I guess, at the time we were trying to restructure, you know, the party in the state, and I was, I guess I was considered. I was-

MOYEN: Did you pursue that at all as-

TURNER: Not really. The matter with me was money. I didn't feel like I could raise the money that I needed to do that. I, it takes an enormous amount of money, and I had a family to raise. And I gave it all I had, but I would have had to been carried. I didn't have the finances at the time that I could have done that. And it, if I'd have 00:09:00been, you know, drafted or something, I'd have probably done it and gave it all I had. But it takes a lot of money, you know, and being from a rural county, it's harder to be a, you know, it's hard to rise out of that than you might imagine, you know. It's a big detriment and I didn't, I still, I didn't, I don't now and didn't believe then that people ought to run me for office and pay my way. I really have a problem with that, too. So that, I guess you'd think a fellow in my situation would have wanted to have done that, but I really never did think that. I think, you know, it, I guess that where I try, what I tried to do, I wanted to see a two party system in the state and basically I think I aided in that a lot. I know I did because we held schools all over and taught people how to run races when I was party 00:10:00leader in Frankfort. And I think it's pretty evident that we've, some of the people that we picked are in leadership positions right now and have done, are doing very well. And I might, you know, I know every congressman and, that we've got, and I knew them when they weren't congressmen. And I knew the senators when they weren't, so I tried to help them and did help them. You know, I spoke all over the state. There's not hardly a town I haven't spoke in. So-

MOYEN: You had mentioned in the last interview that you played a part in the Republican growth and eventual control of the Senate. And you mentioned that that occurred over a long period of time-

TURNER: It did.

MOYEN: and that it was intentional.

TURNER: It did.

MOYEN: What can you tell me about that?

TURNER: Well, what we tried to do, we had, we begin to-see logically 00:11:00you would have, it's easier to take control of the Senate than it is the House. There's a lots of reasons for that. One of the reasons is that when you're running a race it's, you can amass a larger following over a larger area. That's just logical. And since you had only, what is it, thirty-eight, I guess thirty-eight senators, you had a chance to appeal to a, over a larger area. And I don't think that the people pay, they pay as much attention to a Senate race partisanly, as they do a House race. And, of course we worked, I know some of the people like, I know Representative, Senator Rogers, who went to jail, I might add, in the Wilkinson administration, was one of the very early 00:12:00pioneers in getting set up to take control of the Senate. He worked hard on that. That didn't just happen. That's happened over a period of time. Rogers went out and recruited and worked and it's unfortunate he had the problem he did, but he was, he did much, much to, I know I was party leader when he was-

MOYEN: Okay.

TURNER: and floor leader, and I was aware of what was going on and what they were trying to do in this thing. As I told you, I was, while I was there we, for the first time we begin to raise money, our own money in the House caucus to elect our people, and I know they did the same thing. Because we did it. We did it basically ourselves, you know, and we begin to try, work at that, and we did. And we got some, begin 00:13:00to get some monies. And as I said, our House, I had, I always said if you give me the number of people you've got in the House up there now, thirty-six I guess now, when I left we had thirty-two, that I could control the House if your Republicans would stay hitched as a block because the Democratic Party in the state is so fragmented. It always has been, philosophically, you know. You've got a group of left- wingies. I call them, I used to call them Fabians, the Fabian Society, you know, in England, the old trade union crowd? And I saw them as more socialists than Democrats. And most Democrats are afraid of those people to start with. I mean they're here, but you, they really are 00:14:00scared of them. And so, you see, many of those Democrats didn't really have any place to go on a boat like that. They'd rather go home. You see what I'm saying? That's why I said that I was always proud to be Republican because I was my own person. I could be for what I thought I needed to be for, you know, and I didn't get the heat put on me for that, you know. And I know that wasn't true with them, because sometimes they would take projects away from them. And I never, I saw right off I didn't want to be a Democrat because they made them walk the pole, you know what I mean?

MOYEN: Uh-huh. Yeah.

TURNER: Their leaders did. And some leaders were rougher to them than others. Some of them required more discipline. I mean, you know, it's a, one thing we probably in Kentucky didn't have as much as we have now, the Senate tends to have more party discipline in it now, which is necessary to maintain your solid fortress against the opposition. 00:15:00If you're going, you know, you can be, and I think Senator Williams has been fantastic in that. He's not only extremely bright, and he is, he is tough and he has the ability. He's like a demon, he never gives up. He is. He can be vicious, you know, and he can be vicious in paying back if they didn't follow through, too. And, see, many times that doesn't happen. You could see the Democratic Party getting, losing because, getting weaker and weaker, because they, you just look at their redistricting that they put on us the last time, when they put the 1st District, run it way up here in the mountains, took us away from the 5th, so that they figured they could win the 5th. Well, 00:16:00we fooled them. We not only carried the 5th, but we carried the 1st in the Senate races. We, they cut their own throat, and we saw that coming for years. We saw it philosophically coming. We saw the west Kentucky, who had been neglected by the Bluegrass intelligentsia for years, we saw them almost in a state of revolt. They got nothing. They just assumed, "Well, we got them, we don't have to do nothing." And that's what happened to them, see. And I think, over a period of time, if you stood back and you watched it, you knew it had to happen here. So what we tried to do was to, the Senate was a logical place to attack it. It was a logical place to attack. And the House will be Republican within, four years, we'll have a Republican House, or before.

00:17:00

MOYEN: Do you think it will be that quick?

TURNER: Oh, yeah, it will be that quick because, well you see, and I'll tell you this, just looking at other places, I watch other places, too. California's headed, it's headed that way, too. It will head that way, not only because of the governor, but the gov--, they're now beginning, they brought, they busted the state, and now they're refusing to work with the governor on the budget, so they're asking for trouble. See, the people, like I said, people are smarter than people think they are sometimes. Especially the leaders, sometimes they underestimate, people will go along with stuff just so long they finally get tired of it, you know. Well, the Democrat Party has always had an opportunity, what they would do they would always attack the other Democrat every four years, you know. "Yeah, he messed up, but we're going to change it now," see. People finally got tired of it. 00:18:00It didn't work, you know. It just finally didn't work. So-

MOYEN: Let me ask you about this. You mentioned even in the House that you were able to keep, especially when you were minority leader, able to keep the Republicans together-

TURNER: Pretty much.

MOYEN: and then bring in conservative or moderate Democrats.

TURNER: Democrats, yeah.

MOYEN: Were there any examples that you could think of where you were really able to frustrate the Democrat leadership by doing that on any legislation or-

TURNER: Frustration was many times very apparent, because you had people like, you take Smith down here, who's the ag. commissioner now; you take people like him, who philosophically and every other way, is basically, there's not a lot of difference in us. I might be even more liberal on some issues than he is. He was, he's one I can mention. I can mention a lot of others but I can just remember him, because Billy Ray's daughter was Mitch McConnell's, for instance, one of his 00:19:00aides, and worked there and all this stuff, you see what I'm saying. So, you know, it just, that kind of stuff is what I'm saying, it went on. And then when you make a guy stand up and be counted on something, he wouldn't do it. And they just would not do it. And then you had a guy out of Louisville, who's, Preacher Riner, very religious man. (Laughs), the poor devil, he voted against them every time they had a bill. It just got to be, Danny Seum was a fellow that's a senator now that always told me if he ever got a chance, he'd leave. And you've got others up there now that ain't changed, but will if they have to. I know who they are. I can name names. I ain't going to do that because that wouldn't be fair. But I'll tell you, you've got a lot of Democrat representatives that would like to leave right now, more than you might believe, that sometimes has to cater to organized labor, 00:20:00and they should. If they've got them in their district, they have to handle that. But many of those people are not happy, not happy campers where they're at, and I know that, you know.

MOYEN: Let me ask you about what happened after you did win, you did defeat Holcomb. And then in December of `86, "Woody" Allen challenged you for, and defeated you after, I think, four or five votes? Tell me how do you campaign, what were the dynamics there?

TURNER: The dynamics was inter-party fight. What we had, we, many of us, now-I love "Woody" Allen. He's the funniest guy I ever went, ever saw, and we went to college together. But "Woody" Allen was against everything, as far as I was concerned. He was just, "No." You can't 00:21:00grow a party on being against everything; you have to be for things. You can't be a, you have to, if you got weeds in your corn, you got to chop the weeds out or you don't, aren't going to grow any corn. So we have to, we had to be pragmatist enough to know. In my opinion, that's where our leadership come into conflict. He, "Woody" won his race basically by two defections, two or three defections. He lost, Pat Freibert voted for him in Lexington. Pearl Ray LeFevers voted for him out of Williamsburg. He got some votes, he got all of Louisville's vote, basically, and Heleringer and that crowd, and then he got the 00:22:00vote out of Leitchfield. I basically knew where his vote was going to come from, because some of these people, some of them were just against any accommodation with, well, you could take, you take organized labor. I think there has to be a, there has to be an understanding, and there has to be a, some sort of accommodation with organized labor, because they have a right as Americans to be represented by somebody else. Their, many of their attitude was, just write them off, you see? And I didn't ever think that way, I really didn't. I always thought that you had to use, you had to learn to reach some kind of an accord with whatever you had to deal with, something, you know. You can't be negative against it. And I always believed you should be for something, 00:23:00not against everything, you know. If you'll look at the votes that we cast up there, many times I would vote with the group. But also, "Woody" would vote against the group every time, and I thought for the Republican Party to have a leader like that was not good. I really did. Of course, "Woody" stayed there longer than I did, but I stayed there as long as I wanted to, let's just put it that way. But I, that I guess is, it may not tell you totally, but you also noticed that the next time we had an election, what we done to "Woody" didn't you?

MOYEN: Um-hm. Yeah.

TURNER: Now, that's another story.

MOYEN: Why don't you go ahead and tell about that?

TURNER: Well, of course, we couldn't stand that. I mean I couldn't take that, so what we did, we immediately brought into play Bill Strong, who was a very, may I say very, very smart, very smart politician. He 00:24:00was. He went, he actually went to jail, too, I might add. Yeah (Moyen laughs).

MOYEN: He had a short tenure as well.

TURNER: Well he did, but he wouldn't have, he's still a power in the party in the state. He went to jail by not understanding what he was dealing with, as did most of those boys really, you know. I believe that, because first of all Bill Strong didn't need money, he had plenty of it. And so what he'd done, he done for somebody else instead of himself. That's about what he done. But we took, Bill was smart, had some urban, had more urban support maybe than I did. We kept the 5th District in line, the 7th, which is basically my old crowd, you know, Danny Ford and that group. So that, we would not budge. We were, and 00:25:00we trusted each other totally. And we shook that place apart when we took over. I mean we did. And we, our group is still in them seats now, with most exceptions, that I appointed, in the Senate, I mean in the, on the A&R Committees and so on.

MOYEN: So even though Bill Strong would win the next party race for minority leader in the House, did you play a role in orchestrating that?

TURNER: Well, what do you think (both laugh)?

MOYEN: I know what I think.

TURNER: Well, let's say that I certainly didn't hurt him any. Yeah. We were very close, and we still are. And we still, when he left there, our friend Danny come on board, and he was part, he's been, always 00:26:00since he's been there, he's been one of our people. And Stan Cave, we brought them along too, see. You see what I'm saying?

MOYEN: Right.

TURNER: Those people were part of our group. And we were not only philosophically more pragmatic than some of the others, some of them people, we were people who trusted each other, and a word meant something to us, and we wouldn't budge. We didn't care if we lost, if we lost, you know. No window dressing. We're what we are. What you see is what you get, because we fought certain things that we fought. We fought the alcohol crowd in the state, and we fought the gambling interests in the state, and we done, we did that. We didn't apologize. We fought the pro-abortionists in the state. We don't apologize for any of that. I mean we didn't and we don't. And Danny come right 00:27:00along and did the same thing, and Stan come along and did the same thing. But as a group of people, they didn't, we didn't budge. See, "Woody" sometimes would tack, we tacked on with "Woody" and Pearl Ray LeFevers and that outfit, his group, we brought them along. I had no problems with those boys. I just, we just thought differently than what they did.

MOYEN: Uh-huh. All right. Could you tell me a little bit about the following, well, in the fall of `87 Wallace Wilkinson wins the election. Then there's a special session that deals with workers' comp.

TURNER: Yes.

MOYEN: Do you remember much about that session?

TURNER: Yes, I do.

MOYEN: Could you tell me about the issues with workers' comp and where you stood on those?

TURNER: Well, of course, I was for, we had to do something. We were being eaten alive by workers' compensation in the state. Basically, we were causing business to leave the state. It had got completely out of hand. I, don't hold me to these figures because I, but my recollection 00:28:00was, I don't remember, was it $9 million in arrears on workmen's comp and them asking for more money. And I know little businesses were being just destroyed, and we had to do some things. I mean we-it was affecting sawmills and furniture factories, and anything that we had in these areas here, it was killing us, you know, stores. People that didn't have a frequency of claims, it was eating them alive and they didn't understand. And it just got out of hand, basically because of black lung, the abuse of black lung in east Kentucky. Everybody that had a cough or smoked a cigarette drew, as far as we were concerned down here. I'm certain that's oversimplification, because there was 00:29:00some people that had, did have a problem with black lung. They were legit. But it was so liberal, and it had been handled by senators like Mr. Friend and people like that, and Deskins in the House. And some of those have become millionaires on, you know, working those kind of claims. And it was a hard, it was a real hard bill to get onto the House floor. And there, we done our work there in the committees, got real emotional, and some of those stories are just unbelievable. At one time, I'll tell, maybe I don't need to do that now, but I'll just tell you a story. We was on Labor & Industry. I was on Labor & Industry. We had Mark Farrow, who become a counsel for the Ag. Department, we had Marshall Long, who's, is a very fine gentleman, conservative 00:30:00gentleman, I might add, smart man. He's a Democrat, and Mark is, was, too. But there was a group of us on Labor & Industry. They used to call it "Labor & Labor" you know, it was so one-sided. They stacked every liberal on there that they could, but there were just a few of us that got our brains beat out. That was like sending you down to the slaughterhouse. You knew they was going to cram it to you every time you went. So we got, we become, they you know, they called us, they even nicknamed us "The Bees." There was three of us in there, and I was one of, I was a Republican "Bee." But Long and Farrow and myself, they called us "The Bees." In other words what we'd do, we'd sting them, you know. We'd attack them. Of course, they'd beat our brains out and outvote us, but we would have ours, too. And we'd put, we got quite creative about creating disturbances and so on. So what we 00:31:00did in that deal one time, this is, I have a lot of that on film. We decided, had Al Bennett, Al Bennett was the chairman of the committee, and he was a big union man out of Louisville. Well, you know, he would just not recognize you or he would, you know, the union people would, they'd cheer him, one union man would come in and they'd cheer him on and all that (claps hands), and just got to be almost bedlam in there, you know. We got enough of it, and we had the prevailing wage law that come up, which, you know what that does, I guess. That's where they take and they set a, like say, we're building hospitals or schools in an area. They used Paducah, the nuclear plant down there, as a basis to pay, they have to pay that rate. And, you know, that's just a shakedown when you can get it done cheaper. And you're doing that with taxpayers' money, too. It's just, it's crazy. So we decided we 00:32:00were going to do something about it. So we swore everybody to secrecy, and we got us enough people in there. Had Bob Jones, Bob Jones was out of Oldham County, he was one of the crowd, too. We decided that we would take, create a disturbance in there and we would take over the committee. This is a Democrat-Republican coalition. We'd take, we'd throw Al out of, we'd remove him as chairman and put our own in. And we did it. They had to seal the doors. There was riots and everything broke out in there. And we did take it over. And we got our bill, we got it to the floor. Oh, they cried and whined. And I know one time they used to bring those guys in, those labor, I call them labor goons, they'd bring them in and, organized labor, unions, 00:33:00they'd bring them in and they would just do bad. I mean they'd, you know, really get loud, you know, which is wrong. It's supposed to be civilized. And I remember one time, there was a, this is all for show, of course. Some of it is just slapstick almost. You look back on it and you know it's slapstick. We were all lined up at this table and had these guys in this room, and every time they'd say something, this one (claps hands), he'd holler and he'd yell. I got enough of it and I finally, I began to look at him and lock my eyes on him like we were taught to do when I was training the military people in the Air Force, lock your eyes on him and just look into his soul till he gets so nervous he gets to popping like popcorn, you know (laughs). And 00:34:00so I pulled that on that guy. I looked at him right in the eyes, and (laughs) he got to jumping around doing the worst there ever was, and finally I jumped up like I was going to come across the table at him, and he run out of the building. And it tore them boys up in there. I had every one of the unions come in, and they apologized to me for what that guy done. He hadn't really done anything, I'd done it (laughs). That really happened. You can ask Mark. And (laughs) he said he, he's just jumping like fish, you know, and he got real nervous. I mean I wouldn't look at nobody but him, just looked him in the eye, you know, just looking, just zero in on him, just every time he'd move his eyes, I'd move right on him. That's an old military trick that you used to use on basic training, you see, and it really worked good on him. He went crazy (laughs). But we passed that, and we took away the 00:35:00prevailing wage to some extent. Now they've brought some of it back. But we made some, and that was all well-planned and well-coordinated. Nobody told nothing. I mean, you know, that was it. That's, and it did help the state. It kept some business from going out.

MOYEN: It probably frustrated some legislators, like you mentioned, Herbie Deskins or maybe Ron Cyrus.

TURNER: Of course it did. Yeah. Of course it did, yes. I thought it did. I don't think, I didn't think that a legislator has a right, and I never did think that, to go up there and enrich himself in any way. I found a real problem with that. If you go back and look at my voting record, I think it will reflect that. I don't believe you can find, cite an instance where I did something like that. I mean I believe that. I'd like for somebody to look at it and tell me wherein 00:36:00I erred, if I did. But I think they did that. I think there was quite a bit of abuse by some of the attorneys that were eating out of the trough, both sides of the trough, you know. I had a, I did, I always had a problem with that, you know.

MOYEN: Let me ask you about once Wallace Wilkinson does take office. How did his leadership style change the relationship between the governor and the legislature?

TURNER: Well, they first started off, you know, I think they were the, even the Democratic leadership, they had a populist to deal with. And that wasn't, they had had populists before, but they didn't have one like Wilkinson; never had seen one, I don't guess, like that before. He was a, in many ways a good governor for us down here in the 00:37:00country. Many times, I know one time he called us, the Republicans, he asked me to bring over some of my people and meet with him and, on a tax increase. The Democrat solution was tax, as usual. They believe in taxes. And they come over and they started on, you know raising, putting some more tax on. And anytime that you have a member of your group that defects and goes along with something like this, what you in fact have done is let one of theirs off. You see what I'm saying? In other words, if he wants a tax, let him vote it, don't you vote it for him. Then he gets credit for not voting for a tax that you voted. And I know Wilkinson called us over, and this is a true story, I 00:38:00never will forget this. This is a departure a little bit. I remember Lonnie Napier and, I believe, Danny Ford and Clarence Noland, some of us boys went over. Napier is a piece of work anyways. Napier knew Wallace personally, knew his mother and all that. She had gone to church together. Well, we went in and Wallace says, you know, wanted us to, he said, "Now, you boys." He said, "Them boys are so smart." He said, "You all let them put their own tax on it if they want to put one on. I'm not wanting no tax, and you don't need no tax." Said, "You Republicans let, just let them do it." You know what I am saying? But I remember Napier saying, Wallace had a nice cake sitting in a stand, it was covered behind the desk. And he went in and he said, 00:39:00"You boys want some coffee or something?" And some of us said yes and some of us said no. And Lonnie said, wanted, this is what blew my mind about Napier. Napier said to him, he said, "Give me a piece of that cake, Wallace." The governor got up running (laughs) to cut him a piece of cake. This really happened. And then he said, "Get me a cup of coffee, too, while you're at it." The governor, you know, which we didn't do it, but they, that blew my mind. I thought that was so funny, but, and we told him, "You don't have to worry about us, we're not voting for the tax," you know. And it's just like the lottery. Of course, we was against the lottery. And Wallace, he would, he just cried. He would almost cry, begging some of us to get him a vote. And we wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole, you know. You know. But 00:40:00that was funny. Wallace was, Wilkinson, Governor Wilkinson was really a country boy at heart, he was, he really was, you know. And I think he was a, I think he meant to be a good man. I don't think, he might be like a lot of us; he might have had some, you know, he might have done some things or had some things happen that he shouldn't have done, but he, his heart was with the people. I believe that.

MOYEN: What, did he have any talks with you or other Republicans when you were there with him about his push, especially hard during that first session, for gubernatorial succession?

TURNER: He talked to all of us about that, you know. He did. Yeah, he did. Of course, he did. And-

MOYEN: What were your thoughts on that? Or what-

TURNER: I had, I don't think I supported that, as I recall. I was 00:41:00fearful at the time that if we didn't get the thing into a two-party state, that we'd just have one of them get in there and stay as long as he could. And if you had four years of smelly government, they might keep it that way. I mean that worried me, you know. I do think that since we have it, eight years is reasonable. That should let you get your program up and running and try your-but he, yeah, he talked to us. And I had no problem with Wallace running again. I really wouldn't have had. He was an original thinker in a lot of ways. Sometimes I think he was surrounded by people who weren't of the quality that Brown's administration had been. I mean they weren't the people that understood how you _______(??), you know. Yeah, he brought in a few 00:42:00people that should have been exposed to more bath oil and so on (Moyen laughs). Excuse me a minute (laughs). I thought some people were not equipped for where they were put, in my thinking. We knew that. We knew who they were, so we, people watched them. You don't pull that stuff on anyone. But he was a good governor. I loved his wife. She was a dear lady. He was kind, always kind to me. I know my son went off to Korea, not to Korea but to Vietnam, not Vietnam but to Iraq, and he, we went down, we flew down to Fort Campbell and saw them off and all that, and they were always there. He was a, as I said, he was a, he was more a populist than he was a, and you know, he actually was considered as a candidate for the Republican nomination before he run 00:43:00as a Democrat.

MOYEN: I didn't know that.

TURNER: Oh, yeah. He was very close to Hal Rogers and people like that. Yeah, he was, um-hm.

[End of Tape #1, Side #1]

[Begin Tape #1, Side #2]

MOYEN: All right, let me ask you, we talked about succession. The other big push at the beginning probably, not probably, why everyone says Wilkinson was elected was this push for the lottery. Did you do more than simply vote against the lottery? Did you really campaign hard in opposition to that vote?

TURNER: I worked in my district here but, surprisingly, I was correct in my assumption, as I told you early on that I believe you should represent your constituency. And I was correct in how, all my counties, by the way, voted against the lottery, but Monroe here where I live surprisingly come within just a very few votes of voting for the 00:44:00lottery. And-

MOYEN: And overwhelmingly Republican too, right?

TURNER: Yes, but I think what you, as I've told you earlier, you have in this county a, about I think about 54 percent of the people in this county draw some sort of a check of some sort.

MOYEN: Over half? Really?

TURNER: Yes. And that isn't true as you go farther south, it's, Allen is a little more, I mean it's a little less. But Simpson County, it's way down around 24 percent.

MOYEN: Okay.

TURNER: So it tells you about the income levels of the people. I think the way I come up and analyzed that later was that people who have less, are less, have less economically tend to vote for lotteries because they see it as a way of becoming instantly successful or rich. 00:45:00And our people here tend, the kind of Republicans you have here tend to think that way, you know. And, see, you can't, one mistake that a lot of people makes politically is that they think everybody, since you think this is the way it is, everybody else thinks like you do, and that's the first big, raw mistake you can make is, that's not necessarily so. You know, many times a politician will think since he reads the newspaper every morning, everybody else does. That's just not really true, you know. They don't, and they don't really care what's going on. They just want to make money, you know, that's not the thing. So I think that's why-

MOYEN: Okay.

TURNER: No, I was vocally against it. I considered it _______(??) and do now, a regressive tax on poor people. Has it done some good? It's done some good on scholarships and things like that probably. But how 00:46:00much damage has it done? And how many people, kids don't eat a full meal because of it? I don't know. I really resent the fact that they done just what I said they would do, that the state advertises and tries to get people to, they, when the power of the state gets involved in advertising or promoting a game of chance, I think it's pretty bad. I really have a problem with that; you know, a philosophical problem with it. So if I have a problem, that's it. And I just wasn't for it, you know, and that was the reason. I think it's very regressive. To make that contribution, I got to buy a lottery ticket. That is a cheap, sneaky, underhanded way of, and that's the way I saw it. You know, I don't like that kind of stuff, you know. I didn't.

MOYEN: Let me ask you about the other huge piece of legislation during 00:47:00Wallace Wilkinson's term is KERA, the education reform.

TURNER: Um-hm, um-hm.

MOYEN: Can you tell me about your earliest memories of not just the education reform, but how it started, when you first started hearing about I guess it was "Eck" Rose and Don Blandford that were actually sued by these school districts-

TURNER: Right.

MOYEN: for not funding them.

TURNER: Yeah. Well, all of us were sued.

MOYEN: Okay, all right.

TURNER: We were all sued.

MOYEN: Okay. What changes, you did vote against KERA.

TURNER: But I voted to fund it, you remember.

MOYEN: Okay.

TURNER: That's a difference.

MOYEN: Uh-huh. What reasons did you vote against it, and what reforms did you think would have better served?

TURNER: Okay. One of the big fears I think that most Republicans had about that, you know, almost en masse, I don't think they got, but as I recall Heleringer voted for it, maybe Nunn. Let me think, you can 00:48:00count them on your-Northup might have voted for it. Most of us voted against it for, some of the fears we really had about this was that it would give the state more control over a right that I feel that a parent has towards his child. It brought about more intervention of the state. We were fearful of this. That was a philosophical issue with us, many of us. We knew that something had to be done in education, there's no doubt about it. We proposed remedies. But we had problems, some of us did, you know, because of the philosophical idea. But we knew something had to happen, because when a child out 00:49:00of the Bluegrass is having, say at the time, $4,000 spent on it, and we were getting eighteen, you know, there's something wrong. Average day attendance and all of that, so of course, if you had a district where everybody could afford to send their kids to school every day, that was well and good. They got more money for that alone. Many of our kids here had to, we worked tobacco till the dew went off, and then we'd come in at the last recess and work tobacco in the evenings. In other words, you'd get four hours a day, that kind of stuff. They'd just keep us there long enough to, in school long enough to allow us to, we had to keep the economic machine running. And we knew there was a problem. Your teachers, many of them were ill-prepared. And if there was one thing wrong with Kentucky education at the time, it was 00:50:00educational incest. I mean that's about the best way I can think of it, because what you had, you had families, not necessarily your better minds in the county either, that all had tenure and you couldn't fire them, and it was awful. We still have some of them hangers-on yet in these counties.

MOYEN: Uh-huh. A lot of nepotism.

TURNER: Nepotism was rampant, you know. They hired all their people, and as I said, some of them weren't our best thinkers. We lost all those. They left. We knew there had to be something done. Certain aspects of that bill, though, were really scary, quite scary to us. One of the things that I feared has turned out in most instances, as far as I know, to they just proved me wrong on some of it. Because I was concerned about the fact where we bring kids in and we check them 00:51:00for their dental and all this stuff, I was really kind of concerned about that. I wasn't sure that was the right vehicle. We have a, as you know, each county has a system where you, if you have kids that are indigent or so on, they actually buy clothes and they do all these things for them.

MOYEN: Family Resource Centers.

TURNER: Yes. And I was concerned about Family Resource Centers, not only as to how it involved the system with, into the family, but also that it gave those people who run those centers an almost sure vote in the next election. See, that become a consideration to it, you know. When you live in a county where you have a one-party system, or a one-family system really, you become very hostile to that sort of 00:52:00thing, especially when you had to fight that machine all your life. So politically you had to look at it and say, "How much more power is this going to give them over how these people react and vote and so on?" And are we going to have more as, and more nepotism as to who hands out this stuff? That becomes a very fearful thing for us. And in many instances that has become a fact, that it went ahead and happened that way. But that's the reason some of us would vote against it, and some of us were very fearful of that. You see, your Republican Party until recently, we've got into the towns now because our people had to leave the hills to go into the towns. That's why you have the growth of the Republican Party in the cities, and you see us taking over the city governments and so on and so forth. We were fearful of that because we'd come out of, any, almost in any of these counties, you have a, I 00:53:00call it a clique or self- proclaimed geniuses, you know, that have run us in the ground, not only economically but educationally.

MOYEN: Right, right. In all, do you think KERA has done a pretty good job or do you think it's failed?

TURNER: I think KERA has done a, basically a good job, but I do think that it has become, it is becoming more so now a labor-intense, it's taking more teachers, more of the money is not being spent on educating the child in the classroom, but it's going into administration. I think it's become top-heavy, it's becoming top-heavy. And somebody 00:54:00needs to take a hard look at it because right here we have too many assistants to the assistants' assistants, you know. I remember one piece of information a few years ago, that it took nine people to support one college teacher. That's how much it cost, that's why education in colleges has got so high, you know. You got too many assistant deans and all this, you know. Too much pile-on. And you got the same thing occurring in education with KERA now. And it's going to have to be streamlined and some of that taken out, because the main thing is that we get more teaching, good teaching, in the classroom. And we've done a good job. I think KERA has done some good things. Our kids are, I'm amazed at them, really bright, little, I mean, but we don't have a choice. See, we have to make this work, because let me tell you something, every time we lose a kid out here, if you just 00:55:00want to forget that that kid's being denied a good life, what you're really saying is that your pension isn't going to be funded later on. Every time we lose a mind, that's what we've done to ourselves. We can't afford to lose anyone and maintain the kind of society that we expect.We just can't. I mean it behooves us to make sure that we give every kid, and I really believe that, that we have to give every kid the most solid education that we can find for him. We have to do it. I mean it's not a matter of being idealistic. If you just want to put the greed factor in, give it to him or you're going to be shortchanged later yourself. It's that way. And I am, I spon--, I voted for that, 00:56:00but I was really concerned about some aspects of that program, and I've continued to be from, and I guess the reasons I stated was, you know, how do you make it objective? How do, how are you totally, can be, how can you be totally objective and see that, you know, instead of being subjective, you become, how objective is it? I don't know. I think it's, I think we're making some progress. I think we've made tremendous progress, but we need to start looking at those things now, and we need to start looking at whether we teach the test and whether we, and I think they did, but I'll tell you one thing it did do, and I was real proud of that. It shook some of these teachers that ought to have left that profession, it shook them up. It liked to drove some of them crazy the first couple of years, you know. I mean it really did. I 00:57:00mean I had more complaints and gripes and groans and moans, and I mean it was hard on them. They worked like slaves, I'm telling you. They did. And it's made them go back, it's made those teachers go back now. I noticed we just had six people that passed the national test this week in this county. And I know my niece taught those people. She's a real young kid. She had hers. And I think that speaks well that we're doing that, that we're, you know, recognized on a national level, and you can go anywhere and teach, you know. Your credentials are such that, I think we've made a lot of progress. I think we, but we need to look, begin to look at those things, I think, you know. You can't test if there's not, if you don't have the material to test. And expose 00:58:00them, I used to tell my kids, "Learn everything from basket-weaving down to knitting." If you can learn, I tell the boys, "If you can learn to knit, knit," you know. You need it. You need to learn everything you can learn. Be like a sponge, you know.

MOYEN: Right, um-hm. Let me ask you this one last question about education reform. Did you have anything to say or any opinions on these tax assessors or tax evaluations on property, and having them appointed versus elected and that whole issue, that didn't become a part of KERA, but I know some people raised the issue. I think Art Schmidt, in particular, really pushed to have these people appointed.

TURNER: The PVAs?

MOYEN: Yes.

TURNER: Yes.

MOYEN: Uh-huh.

TURNER: I think it's all right. The PVA's office has become actually a, it really doesn't, you vote for them, but those people, it's so 00:59:00controlled, you know; you have to pass a test and you have to do this and that. And some people aren't paying any taxes, you know. I mean they just don't pay nothing. And I think the state had to do something about that. I do. I think it come down to the point that we had to do something because we had people, if they wanted to rub you out, politically again in these counties, they can do it by taxes, you know. And what it was doing to us, I was on A&R for a long time, eight years, I guess. But what it did, what they were doing, they were killing the young ones. You come along here, and say I paid, bought this farm for $1,000. And I sit here, and in many cases they didn't raise it, the tax, I paid nothing. And you come along and I sell it to 01:00:00you for $100,000. All of a sudden, you paid something, you know. You paid on the $100,000. So who, where is the weight of the taxes? Who's it falling on? Instead of the total population, which it should be doing, it is the young guy again. A lot of this was, some of us that had kids become very, very cynical with that whole program. We were hard to deal with over it. We wanted it straightened out, you know, and it needs to be. I mean you see it is my part, my responsibility to see that your kid is educated. Some people said, "Well, I raised my kids. I mean, why should I worry about it?" You need to worry about it, because we'll go back to the factor of who's going to fund your pensions? So it, you know, you've got to be fair about it, and we all should pay our fair share of our taxes, period.

01:01:00

MOYEN: Was there any other legislation during Wilkinson's term that may have not made it into the Herald-Leader or Courier-Journal that you sponsored, really pushed or were concerned about, that may have not gotten the press that the lottery or that KERA did?

TURNER: I don't know. I mean if you brought it up, I'd know instantly what it is because I remember pretty well. But I don't remember, I know that I was, I worked hard on workers' compensation. I worked real hard on that legislation. I can't say.

MOYEN: And those were the bigger issues that took lots of time.

TURNER: They took a lot of time. And I'm trying to think but, now, there's many instances there, we, I mean there was a, when you look 01:02:00back-I can't say specifically, but if you mentioned a legis--, some legislation, I could tell you. Because I did, I made it my business to know what was going on, believe me, and I basically knew what was going on. Some of those legislators do not read the law, the bills, I'm telling you. They didn't, you know. And that is terrible to say, but I know they didn't, you know, just vote. That's dangerous, isn't it?

MOYEN: Sure, definitely. Let me ask you about Brereton Jones' election, his win, and how that may have changed the tone with the governor and the legislature. What, did he have a more, what might be called positive relationship with the legislature than, say, Wallace Wilkinson 01:03:00did, in confrontations that were there over different issues? Or would you not characterize it as that?

TURNER: I didn't see him as much of a pacesetter. He had a, he, with the Republican Party, he was considered kind of a traitor since he had been a Republican, you know. And he'd also, he was extremely wealthy, and in many instances, many of us didn't feel that he understood the real state of Kentucky, in that his horses had better houses to live in than a lot of the people did. That bothered, that always bothered me about Brereton Jones, you know. He, I considered him basically like some of the wealthy people that's always wanting to tax everybody to, because they really have never understood what it is to be poor. 01:04:00That, I mean that's how, he was kind enough, but his wife was, you know, old money and he married into it. And that created, that always creates a problem, as you look at a guy, you know. I didn't consider him, I don't think a lot of the Democrats trusted him either. I mean I really didn't think they did, you know. He watched out for the racing interests real bad. Of course, he had to. You know, he was one of those people. But I never considered him a mover and shaker in the vein of the other governors, I really didn't. He was almost an afterthought when you brought him up there. I know I, the thing I remember about him mostly was that he, I think his administration destroyed the insurance industry in the state of Kentucky. I really consider, health insurance, they destroyed it. They literally destroyed it. They pushed that bill through, that utopian crap 01:05:00through, that anybody would have insurance. It almost made every AIDS case in the state, everybody was coming here because we were so, we had to insure them. And insurance is a private industry just like everything else, you know. I mean you can destroy it. And it's good for everybody to have insurance, but it's also good if you, when you tilt the thing to the point that it's not able to make a profit, you drive it out. We experimented with that, and that was, I remember him. And I think most people who have got young families know what insurance is doing to them now. It's destroying us. And I think that 01:06:00they brought this on. They basically stuck it down everybody's throat, you know. And that, I blame the Kentucky Farm Bureau for that, too. I, they did do that out of greed and selfishness so they could get all the insurance, you know, as far as I am concerned, I think. I voted against, that was the first Farm Bureau vote I ever, no vote I ever, that they was pushing for that I voted against. I wouldn't vote for it. I thought it was terrible, you know.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Let me ask you a few things about all the healthcare stuff, although it was mentioned early on, was really an issue in `94. Let me ask you about a few things before that. In `92, Anne Northup had a bill to raise the legal smoking age to eighteen. Why were you and some other legislature, legislators opposed-

01:07:00

TURNER: To that?

MOYEN: to that?

TURNER: Basically because it, you can raise the rate as high as you want to, but you're not stopping them from smoking. My position on smoking, and you can go back and if you'll pull, go to the film library up there, you can probably pull out some of the positions that I took. If it's so bad, see, I considered it hypocritical. The state wants the taxes, the federal, the feds wants the taxes, which is a sizable chunk of money. So if it's bad for the people, why do you want to Mickey Mouse around with it? Outlaw it totally if it's so bad. Quit being greedy. You're not going to stop the smoker. I don't care what price it is, he'll bootleg it out. He'll find a way to do it. You know what I mean?

MOYEN: Right. Right.

TURNER: He's going to do it. He's going to smoke. These kids out here- [to animal] shoo! Get out. Excuse me.

MOYEN: No problem.

TURNER: I'm going to have to run this-but what you do, what you're 01:08:00really doing you are, you're trying once again to, her legislation was that she, as I understood it, was wanting to make it legal. Well, it's already, whatever the age is, you need to clean that up, you have to clean that up at home. You know, my boys don't, I have one kid out of three that smokes, you know. And I mean I got, we got rough with it. I mean I don't smoke. It wasn't that. It, again, is that a bunch of people, hypocritically, were jumping on the industry-[to animal] get out of here you. What you had, we saw that as a bunch of, basically 01:09:00the same thing as we saw it with the Clintons. It's hypocritical as heck to go after an eighteen year old out here that's, you know it's, I think it encouraged the kids to smoke. Make it against, make a law against it, and that's the first thing you do, you know, to prove they can circumvent the law. It didn't have enough, there was no way to enforce it. It was pie-in-the-sky thing, and we saw them punching or harassing our people out here who were just trying to make a living. If you're going to do away, do something about it, I think I made, I remember making a speech, me and her had some real hot words about that. If you're going to do something, if it's bad and it's killing people, let's do away with it, let's just quit. Let's just not have it 01:10:00anymore, you know. That's what I'd, I think I equated it to liquor. I said, "You know, basically, let's do away with liquor. Let's all be, let's all live in a world of idealism," you know. Let's not jump on somebody because it's fashionable. We know it's terrible. I hate it, but it's a part of our culture. How do you disengage from that, you know? If it's killing us, it's killing us. That's what it was about. And we basically saw a city person trying to stick their nose into something we considered a rural issue, you know. But I notice that since then she's taken big contributions from the tobacco companies. Now, who was right? That's the point.

01:11:00

MOYEN: Uh-huh. In `92, you also sponsored a bill for nurse practitioners to be-

TURNER: Yes.

MOYEN: allowed to prescribe certain medicines. What brought that issue to your attention?

TURNER: What brought the issue to my attention was that doctor bills for the poor or the chronically poor was, is unaffordable in many instances. What we were trying to do, many doctors will make $1 million a year, $700,000 or $800,000 a year salaries. We can hire a nurse practitioner who can prescribe and preventive things like, simple things, and actually prevent a lot of this and do it affordably. We can hire a nurse practitioner, say, for $60,000. We was trying to get some help into un-served areas like these inner cities and rural areas.

01:12:00

MOYEN: Okay.

TURNER: That's what I was trying to do, and it is now becoming more fashionable. It's, we've got part of it, but we still got them under the doctors' thumb. I don't think they need to be under the doctors' thumb. I think a nurse practitioner required a master's degree, and that they only be, if they could not prescribe legend drugs or narcotics, you know. They could have oversight there maybe. But what, we were trying to do, we was trying to get medicine in to more people where they can afford it. We didn't advocate that they do tonsillectomies and things like that, but they probably could. They've had more pharmacology than a medical, as much as medical doctors have. Nine hours is all they've got, and that's what they have. It's 01:13:00kind of ridiculous. You know what I'm saying? It was an attempt to get affordable, more medicine out here to prevent problems before it occurred. And, you know, if you can go, make an office call for $5 instead of $50, get a dose of penicillin for $10, and you can cure the problem, give us some APCs or aspirins, you know, it's better than having no medicine.

MOYEN: Right. It doesn't take an MD to prescribe some Motrin.

TURNER: Not a bit. No, that's the point. It was a, it was trying to get back, get more help to the mass. In the long run, that would have helped a lot. And plus, I, we had had some experience with it along the Tennessee border here. I'd watched it work over there. And that's another reason I was for it and continue to be for it, by the way, you 01:14:00know. It's just like dentures, old false teeth. If I can get a set of false teeth for $100, and the dentist, just for taking an impression, charges me $1,600. I was trying to get more corn to eat (both laugh). And we, I worked on that bill a lot too, by the way. Some real funny stories about that, too (Moyen laughs).

MOYEN: Why don't share one or two?

TURNER: On the dentures?

MOYEN: Yes.

TURNER: One time, a friend of mine up there is a Democrat on the health and welfare committee. There was always some legislation running around there that was very sensitive, and many times they wondered who the false pen, the poison pen was that would pen such stuff. He told me one day, he said, "Use, why don't you put your creative genius to work and come up with something to, a bill that we can, we need 01:15:00this denturist thing aired more. You know, we need to get it aired." Well, I come up with a bill, an amendment we was going to put on an agricultural bill. It was an amendment on food processors. I put an amendment on an agriculture bill that we would exempt regulation and taxes on food processors for a period of so long. And that really exempted teeth (laughs), food processors (both laugh), you see what I mean? You get to be very creative, so this, so we got that bill all the way to the governor's desk before somebody got nervous, and he got up on the floor himself and said, "This could be the most biting issue to come before this chamber" (both laugh).

MOYEN: That's pretty good.

TURNER: Yeah, it was. And then we had another one or two that we used 01:16:00on bridges, exempted you know, put it on a road-building bill. We put the bridgework. You know, that's (both laugh)-we put it on a road, highway bill. We done some of that stuff, you know. And a tourism bill, we put a small caverns and caves bill, amendment on one of them once. You get to be quite creative after a while when you've been around. You learn to read what the possibilities are, you know. And it was interesting. We were always pulling stuff like that, you know. So, on, it kept everybody on his toes and made them afraid to go to sleep (laughs). You could throw something like that on a piece of legislation, and every dentist in the state would go insane. You know what I mean? Just, "Ugh! Some wild man, that bill's up there somewhere. 01:17:00We can't find it." Then hit them with a cave bill or something, you know. It makes for, it keeps you from going insane when you read too much dry material. That's all we was trying to do (laugh).

MOYEN: Let me ask you about in 1993, when the FBI subpoenaed your campaign finance (Turner laughs) records and that whole-

TURNER: Yeah.

MOYEN: thing. Why don't you give me your story on that.

TURNER: I'll do that. Ninety-three, let's see, that was the year, `92 or `93 that I had this race here with Lewis Darrell Carter. That's when they had all the superintendents after me.

MOYEN: After the KERA and all.

TURNER: Yeah. That's when they was all after me, you know. I had, they'd put money in it and they met at night against me and all that. And, of course, I was, I really pulled out the stops and was running wild. And what we did, all candidates do it, we raised, had to raise 01:18:00our own money. We didn't get no help from the party much at all, so we had raised money. And actually that, what happened to us in that case was that we, the only thing they ever proved on me at all was that, of course, that involved the outfit out of Louisville, the big hospital there.

MOYEN: Humana.

TURNER: Yeah, Humana. Of course, I voted against their bill.

MOYEN: That, I've got this in my, you were the only one of the legislators who received a subpoena in July of `93 who-

TURNER: Right.

MOYEN: did not vote for the legislation.

TURNER: And I did not vote. I would not vote, I was against the bill. But let me, as I told the-we took, we would take money, I think the only, many times the only money I had ever re--, would return, I would 01:19:00return money, if they wanted to give it to me no strings attached, which they do, I've returned money from liquor interests, and I wouldn't take that, ever take money from them. But in this case, I asked them people, "Why are you giving me a campaign contribution when I am against your bill? I'm just against the bill. I can't be for that bill. It tears up my small hospitals, you know. I can't do it." They said, "We like the way you vote." That's a quote quote. If you go to the FBI records, you'd see the same thing there, by the way. They come in here, they're subpoenaing all the records, they come to my house and they sat right there and right there, and I sat where you're sitting. And they asked me, the FBI did, you know, about the records. And I said, "Well, you know, if you say they gave me a contribution, I don't, I'm sure if they did it's a matter of record." 01:20:00Where my problem was, on that record was that, was my treasurer had just put that money in with a lot of other money, you know. And she put, she knew certain people were here, so she put down that they gave, somebody gave so much money. We don't know how much money they gave. You'd have a $1,500 fundraiser out here, and you'd have one guy buy, bought a cake for $1,600, wanting to be a big contributor. And you put, you're allowed to put all that money in a barrel, like the general fund you were talking about. Well, see we, what we did, when my, my wife, who was my treasurer, she just itemized it. She, we showed the money was there. We could track the money to that, but then it appeared here as if somebody gave it, because she had, she just 01:21:00knew who was basically here giving money and she gave them credit for giving money. So that's what they got us on. That's the only thing they got me on. And I voted against their bill, so they had to turn me loose. Believe me, they did. But they harassed me to death over that, made me sick, because I didn't ask them for a contribution. I never-another thing they did, I guess, was that they gave me the money, and I guess it was cash, evidently it was cash, like this money would be that we collected here. And that was in violation, we found out. And, of course, it was done all the time. Half of them, if they'd have checked them up there, they'd all have had the same problem. I can name you, had a lot of them tell me that, by the way. So we proved that we reported the money, but it was how we reported the money. 01:22:00Now, what the FBI couldn't prove on me was, and it's, again, I guess a tribute to my frugality on things. I didn't mail the report in, I carried it in. So I violated no mail fraud charges. That's why the Lexington Leader said, "Turner escapes jail by the lick of a postage stamp" (Moyen laughs). You know? I had no intentions of circumventing that, if that was the reason, but I just did it. I was very careful about stuff like that. It was a hard fight, as I told them at the time, and I think they believed me obviously. We were in a fight. You get the superintendents with all their power and money after you, and you're bare(??) to keep them, and I beat him to death. I beat his brains out, about 80-some percent. Even with them all after me, 01:23:00I still beat him to death. So, you see, that's basically what I can tell you about it. The FBI come here, and I would like to make this caveat to this thing here is, the FBI, when they come here, they wrote out a thing for me to sign, and I read it and I refused to. I said, "That isn't what I said," you know, putting words in my mouth. I would recommend that anyone that ever has the FBI approach them, that they're not necessarily your friend. You better read, know to how, what to read, because I wouldn't sign it like that. And I made corrections and then I signed it. And that wasn't smart either. I should have had my attorney with me. Thank goodness they were fair. By the way, Steve Pence right now is, I would, when they subpoenaed my records, I took my records and I went up there, I didn't wait for them to call me in. I 01:24:00had nothing to hide from them, and I told them I didn't, you know. I went up there and I told them. I didn't know whether Steve Pence was a Republican or a scalawag. I didn't know enough about him. I just knew that I, if they had something they wanted to see, I wanted them to see it. And I took it up there, and they didn't, I never appeared before any grand jury or anything. And I, by the way, didn't get any jail time either, you know, or anything. But I basically did it because I told them right there that day, I said, "You know, I am too old to start lying at this age. I'm not lying to you about nothing. I won't lie. If I go to jail, I still won't lie to you." And I didn't.

MOYEN: Uh-huh. All of this came on the heels of the BOPTROT and all that stuff.

TURNER: Sure, sure.

MOYEN: Did you feel like that that made the various investigations more 01:25:00intense, like they're looking, and in a sense-

TURNER: They were trying to get notches in their guns.

MOYEN: Uh-huh.

TURNER: But I want to tell you this, and I mean it right now. And I guess many big corporations do that, but I have absolutely no respect for Humana as an entity in any way. Their top management was well aware of everything that they did, I'm certain. They got nothing. They didn't even get a pat on the hand. I never dealt with those people, you know, but I have no respect for Jones or any of his crowd at all. I consider them a, probably a necessary evil. I think they exploit the people of the state. I think they are very greedy. I think they are a corrupting influence in the state. I wouldn't have 01:26:00ever supported a bill that they were for. You know, they bought their way into almost everything in this state. They have contributed to the orchestras, they did this and that. At the same time they were selling $20 aspirins. I could never support them. Contribution-wise, when you're fighting, you know, the enemy of my, you know, my-it's kind of like a, I consider them to be a monopolist in their approach. I, of course, they get rave reviews, but they caused a lot of good men to, who, we were riding a loose cannon up there at the time. There is no doubt to me if they would have looked closer at some of the big boys there, they would have put some people in jail. They never. Some of those people still hold high positions in state government, 01:27:00I might add, that I considered, I knew, but they never asked me those questions, you know.

MOYEN: And you really did get the sense that it was a hunt to put another feather in their cap, so to speak?

TURNER: I got, since I was the minority leader, I think they were after me. And they didn't have anything really to go after me on, but they wanted to drag me through. And I want to tell you another area that I am very angry about, very angry, very-it's a joke.

[End of Tape #1, Side #2]

[Begin Tape #2, Side #1]

TURNER: crowd that they put up, brought into being up there, it's nothing but a joke. It was all political hacks who wanted, as far as I was concerned, wanted to put, they wanted to get me. They were 01:28:00after me for a lot of reasons, because I'd always, you know, I was a fellow that they never had a scrap on me while I was there. I didn't, I never would do it, I wouldn't do anything. No one ever asked me to do anything. They knew I wouldn't, you know. And I considered it a- well, if you go back and you look at other things there, you know, they were, there was a lot of payback. They tried to get me in, they meant to put me in jail. There's no doubt about it, now that I look at it. I, (coughs) you take, the Ethics Committee basically was made up by a bunch of political hacks. They haven't done anything to Paul Patton; they didn't do anything to Kenny Rapier, and he's, God bless him, he's gone on to his reward, and I consider him a good man. But Kenny Rapier 01:29:00probably, they exonerated him.

MOYEN: Um-hm. So are you talking about the Legislative Ethics Commission?

TURNER: Yes, I am.

MOYEN: Okay.

TURNER: I consider it a joke till this day. I consider, and you can't have something like that that's made up of a bunch of partisan politicians, ex-politicians, or some old lady that's so old that she doesn't know what you're talking about.

MOYEN: Was there-

TURNER: And they did that.

MOYEN: I don't have anything in my notes, but it seems like I read in an article that someone who was on this commission or panel at the time actually resigned. Do you recall anything about that?

TURNER: They did that. Some of them did, and they had some people on there that I have seen, when they were legislators, seen, I have seen them drunk on the floor of the House when I first went there. That's the kind of stuff we had. It was a joke. It's still a joke. You know, we're elected by the people. If we're out of line, then they need to clean us out. They need to put all the fire on us they can 01:30:00and let the people vote us out of office. I really believe that. I just, I mean I don't think that they have a right to put us before a crowd. Now, I tell you where I think the, one thing about the ethics law was good. I think they need to bring us in and expose us to things we're supposed to do and not do, because they never did that. None of us knew some of this stuff. We just didn't know, you know. We didn't know that, I never heard of, when I went there, I never heard of a, these different committees, financial committees and so on that they had up there. I didn't know, they never done it for Republicans. I didn't know that they went out and had golf tournaments for certain Democrat candidates I won't mention, but it's pretty apparent who they were. I didn't know they did things like that, raised them thousands 01:31:00of dollars. Well, how are you going to fight those people? That's the point I'm making, you see? I didn't know Joe Barrows and that crowd up there when they were there was involved in all this. I didn't know about that. I didn't know that they tried to bribe people into voting for bank legislation, like Elmer Patrick when he come to me and told me he'd been, they'd attempt to bribe him on the banking bill. I mean, that was all wild. You may think I'm a gullible soul, but I really hadn't ever heard of that sort of thing, you know. But they did, and I, and we made some, we went after those people. And I think there was some of that on, in my case, it was pay, they wanted to get payback time, because I was vocal about it. I didn't hesitate, and I think they tried to put chicken manure on my head, as you might say, so I'd 01:32:00grow out of it, maybe, but it didn't work (Moyen laughs). I mean they made us sweat, but we were gullible. And I think some boys that got some jail time was very gullible also. They never told us about all these things. They should have brought us in and set us down. See, we're just citizens out here that are concerned. We were thrown into an arena that was completely foreign to us, you know? And we had to play, there was rules that we many times didn't even know about. But I have no respect for Humana at all. I mean whatever they do, I mean, I still have no respect for, the management at the top knew everything that was going on, in my opinion. Yet they got nothing. They didn't dare touch that sacred cow. It's just like the tobacco in this state. 01:33:00They don't want to bother tobacco; they want the taxes off of it, but they won't tell how bad it is. Let's stop it. I mean let's, liquor's the same way. Close all the stills, you know. But they don't do that. That's the point. But you have to deal with it. You have, that's something we have to deal with as best we can. But that's what I really, about all I can say about it. I mean I'll be glad for anybody to ask me any questions, you know, about anything they want to ask me. And I, we just went in and, but you know, they wouldn't let well enough alone. After the Feds said they didn't need me, they put me before an ethics committee, and that was the worst thing to deal with. I mean that was when you, they throw you to the dogs basically. You 01:34:00know, we'd violated no federal laws.

MOYEN: Because those people are still public ser--, they're elected officials and they're still dealing with politics-

TURNER: Absolutely. That's the point.

MOYEN: In `95 when you did, I think you had a meeting, it may have been more than one, with the Legislative Ethics Commission, a closed meeting, can you tell me what you told them-

TURNER: Just what I told you.

MOYEN: Okay.

TURNER: Exactly. I had no, there was nothing to say. I mean we told them the truth. I mean, you know.They had nothing against me. But here's what you find yourself having to face. First of all, you're not paid enough to defend yourself. You saw your four kids who were in school being subjected to all this crap out here, and you knew you weren't intentionally guilty of any of that stuff, and you found 01:35:00yourself, it was terrible. It was awful, traumatic, you know. That's what I learned from this. The Ethics Committee was actually, as far as I was concerned, a joke, but a very dangerous joke. See the, in most cases, they've ruled that they had no, they didn't, they had no jurisdiction. They tried to try some of us ex post facto. They tried to pass the laws after the fact, you know, that we'd walked into. Of course, you can't, that law is later, later was declared unconstitutional. They threw it all out. That didn't, they didn't get, that don't mean you-and I didn't, I was lucky again. I didn't have to spend, I think I spent two or three hundred dollars on law, on legal fees, was all I spent. I mean, you know, again, the Lord must 01:36:00have been looking down on me, because He sure, they meant for me to spend a bunch. They meant to bust you is what they meant to do. See, in other words, it's the old trick again. If you can't beat him, you bust him or you harass him to death. And they wouldn't allow, then they tried us before the legislature, a legislative trial, which again was where the Democratic leader, he picks these people and puts on the committee, and then they decide that, you know, this and that. Many of those people had been under investigation themselves that tried us, or tried me. They tried me. Well, they didn't have nothing to do either. It was, again, another, it was just a joke, you know. I never had a big war chest. I never maintained one. They first said, "Take all of his war chest." Well, see, unlike them, I didn't have one. Not good.

01:37:00

MOYEN: Right. Let me ask you this. I thought this was telling. I'm not exactly sure how it is, but I want you to tell me. In February of `96, you apologized on the House floor.

TURNER: Absolutely. If I, and I said if I've done something, if.

MOYEN: Right.

TURNER: If you'll check that recording, that's what it said, if. I am, I would apologize, because I would never do anything to hurt that institution.

MOYEN: You got a standing ovation.

TURNER: Yes, I did.

MOYEN: What does that ovation symbolize or suggest?

TURNER: Suggested to me that everybody was as guilty as I was and they could have very well saw-

MOYEN: Saw themselves.

TURNER: themselves in the same position. And I hadn't done anything, and I hadn't.

01:38:00

MOYEN: Right. Let's take a step back and talk about the, when the whole BOPTROT scandal or the FBI investigation was exposed, and toward the end of that session when the FBI was out on the floor, I'm certain you didn't imagine four years later that you would have gone through all the different steps with the FBI that you did. Did you have-

TURNER: I had no thoughts of it either way. I just, as I said, I reacted to the, I guess, the stimuli at hand at the time, you know. That's really-he's the fellow that's probably going to come in, and we'll have to turn this off probably-

MOYEN: Okay.

TURNER: for a minute, because he's moved some gravel for me.

MOYEN: Okay, we'll pause it here.

TURNER: Oh, okay. [Pause in tape]. Flip that out on you. And it's, 01:39:00it was awful. I don't, I made a speech on the floor afterwards, too. I burnt, I got rough with the press. I called them a yellow press. And I'll tell you, I don't blame Ernie Fletcher. If you'd been done like we had by the Courier-Journal and the Lexington Leader over the years, you would make them submit their questions in writing, too. The press has aided and abetted in keeping our people down in this state. They've done it for a group of families in Louisville, the Binghams. I despise them. I tell you I, if I, I've told them, I said, "You better be glad that we live in a democracy where we got a constitution because," I said, I told them and I believe this, "there'll eventually be a right-wing government take over." This may make me sound like an extremist, but I said, "I'm more afraid of a right-wing administration than I am a liberal. They could do a lot of things to us." And I said, "You know, you better be glad that I know what's right and 01:40:00what's wrong, because if we ever took over and I was a part of that administration, I'd have you shot before daylight." I said, "That's how I think you are. I think that's how bad you all are." I mean I really put the hot water to them. I said, "You people have aided and abetted in all this old immoral crap in this state, liberal junk, and you're dangerous people." And I told them, I still see those guys on the press, I mean, up there, they can tell you I told them. I didn't make any bones about it, I said, "You're, it's a, the yellow press." I said, "I was raised up and I was told to love, you know, respect the media," because of the fellow years ago that they was going to, you know, the newspaper, Zenger I believe it was, that they, you know, they tried to try him for what he printed. And I said, "He was trying to be objective." I said, "You people aren't objective at all. You people are subjective. You have a story, you have a program to sell, 01:41:00and I don't like it." I told them, and I threatened to whip one of them physically on the floor. There wasn't a damn thing he could do about it. I just told him, I said, "Let me tell you something. You can't do nothing but sit there and listen to me because I'm, you can't get me for libel because I'm immune from that on this floor." And I said, "You know, you're really a bunch of," I said, "You're not even, you don't even measure up to a good bootlegger where I come from." I said, "A lot of bootleggers take pride in what they produce. You people don't have any pride." It was bad. And I said what I pleased and, you know, I did. I have some real, that Courier-Journal is, and that Bingham family up there has been nothing but bloodsuckers on this state for years, you know. And I don't like them. I told them that we used 01:42:00their newspapers for bird litter boxes (both laugh). They was going to get, they thought they could beat me with their paper. I told them, "My people don't read your junk" (Moyen laughs). It was terrible. It really was. I mean they have an agenda to promote here every day and I don't blame Fletcher and them for making them submit their questions in writing, because they will distort it and lie about them. I think the Courier is that bad. And if they'll just hold their guns here a while, they'll probably make them get rid of some of those people. They need to get rid of that kind of junk. You don't need, you need to be fair. I don't care if you're chopping me up if you're fair. I mean I don't even care if it's just your atti--, your idea about it, but when you pretend it's everybody's idea and I know it's not, I really resent 01:43:00that, you know. And newspaper people, and Western's got an excellent newspaper training program down there, you know. And we're proud of it, it's nationally recognized. But I'll tell you, they have a bigger responsibility because they are in fact the fourth-the, you know, executive, legislative, and judiciary, and the press. They're very powerful people. And in a state like Kentucky they can-who's going to stand, who's going to be able to stand up against that much ink? It's hard, you know. It, I think, you know, McConnell ignores them basically, you know, or he has learned to manipulate them. And it's really sad, you know. Schools, colleges used to be bad that way too, 01:44:00but they, that's changed a lot in the last few years, you know. When I was at Western, we had a, we started the first Republican Club at Western, me and another fellow did, and we got a charter, a national charter. And they never had seen many Republicans in those days, and it was hard to live down there. Professors would lay it on you. I know, I mean they would make you defend every position that Hamilton Fish and everyone ever messed with. So I began, I really, by studying it, I began to really believe it all. I wouldn't have been as hard as I am now if it hadn't been for them. You know, they made me, I mean, into what you become. And it was just terrible and, but it's been 01:45:00interesting because we've changed it and we've saw it change, you know.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Let me ask you about a few other things that were going on in `94. There was a debate about dog tags and raising the price of dog tags.

TURNER: Yeah (laughs).

MOYEN: Although that may seem like a small issue to someone who lives in a little suburb, you know, outside Lexington or Louisville, down here that would be a serious issue, right?

TURNER: It would be a rough thing, because some of our people have twenty dogs, believe it or not. There's coon hunters and fox hunters would have that many dogs. Sure, it's an issue if you're paying $20 dollars on twenty dogs. It's a heap of money, as they say, you know.

MOYEN: Right.

TURNER: Yeah.

MOYEN: Uh-huh. And you even mentioned, I believe, that in 1915, one of 01:46:00the governor's races, that was an issue.

TURNER: That, it was the issue, and it was the first time the Republicans ever elected a complete slate, a complete slate of candidates. That's the first time we ever had a lieutenant governor elected until Fletcher, I mean Pence. And it was in that time. Any other time it was, a Democrat was elected. But the issue was "Free Old Blue," you know. And they swept it all. They didn't lose a county, I don't believe. My mother told me when she was a girl that they actually used to take the, her dad was a hunter, coon hunter and a fox hunter, so that meant he had fifteen or twenty dogs. And they would take the dogs out to the ditches and tie them, tape their mouths shut (laughs) where they couldn't find them until they would leave. They'd ride around the country on a horse and count the dogs, you know. And 01:47:00that's, she said it was done all over the place. I had no idea it was that, but you could see, it's something you just don't mess with. Some things out in the country you just don't do, you know.

MOYEN: You mentioned this briefly. I want to get back to, just for a minute, healthcare-

TURNER: Yeah.

MOYEN: and the healthcare issues in `94. You mentioned that you really felt like Brereton Jones is to blame for running out insurance companies from the state. Can you explain to me the complexity of the healthcare issue? I mean, obviously, your opinion on that reform you've stated, but what were the problems? What things do you think need to be addressed in terms of healthcare?

TURNER: There needs to be, I am a licensed agent, have become one since. I had people who were paying, just to give you a kind of 01:48:00an introduction to what's conditioned my thinking, of course, I was opposed to it then. I realize that it is a monopoly of a sort, but we had monopolies when they're competing against each other and you got a lot of them, tend to drive prices down. They become competitive. Well, when you give all of it to, it goes right back to my friends up on the river that I don't respect too much.

MOYEN: Humana.

TURNER: Humana. Humana and Blue Cross have got probably 70 or 80 percent of the insurance in the state. So, you see, it was to their advantage to drive everybody out. And who do you think Farm Bureau was representing? Blue Cross-Blue Shield. Well with them two and you tie all the farmers up, you basically have a, you've driven everybody 01:49:00out. Now, we represented Golden Rule Insurance. I had people that paid, for instance, say $100 a month, and they had, maybe had a $1,000 deductible, but that was affordable. My company left the state. They couldn't compete. I mean, you know, they, then when they ordered them to take everybody and they were, you know, it was a time bomb ready to explode, you can't, they accused them companies of cherry picking and everything else, you know, picking the healthy ones. But my goodness, I mean, whose fault is that? If you're with the company, I could have seen us coming along and saying, "If you've spent your life with a company, that they couldn't drop you when you was old." I can 01:50:00see that. I can see us doing that. But I cannot see them telling me I got to take AIDS, all the AIDS cases and everything else on people that absolutely can't pass a physical. I can see you after you reach, (coughs) you enter a contract with a person, us mandating that you have a right if you maintain, do your part. I can see that company being stuck with you, but I can't see them allowing people, just carte blanche, run in here and you have to take them because we said you did. That's like somebody telling me, I don't like goats, for instance, and they tell me that I've got to put them in for my cattle, say. That's not very nice. And that's what they did, they just destroyed that industry. But, see, outfits like Humana and Blue Cross and Blue Shield, they've got such, they've got all the state business, which is 01:51:00substantial, all the educator business. I mean what is left for the other companies? Why would they want to come into a state that said you got to take so many people with AIDS that's spending $300,000 or $400,000 a year? Is it my fault if I don't have that and I've lived a different type of lifestyle than some of those people? Is it my fault? Should I pay for their sins? I don't think so. That's what this is all about. It becomes a philosophical issue as much as anything, you know. And who is to say that just because I happen to be born in Kentucky that I'm entitled to anything if I don't earn it? That gets to be philosophical in my opinion.

MOYEN: Uh-huh. Can you tell me a little bit about how, if I understand 01:52:00this correctly, Brereton Jones was pushing healthcare reform, there were all these various compromises.

TURNER: Um-hm.

MOYEN: And then right when it seemed at the end of the session in `94 that the healthcare bill was going to pass, Brereton Jones started lobbying in the House-

TURNER: Against it.

MOYEN: to kill it.

TURNER: That's right.

MOYEN: Why was that?

TURNER: I don't know why he would have done that, because-

MOYEN: Was it tied-

TURNER: I think he was playing politics, and he had already, maybe somebody had made it known to him that it wasn't going to fly and what it was going to do, and he had done crossed the Rubicon. And he was wanting to be able to say, "Well, yeah, but I tried to kill it," you see. "I wanted it stopped really. I wanted to carry the ball, but I don't want to score," you see. But he did score. He destroyed it. He 01:53:00drove them out. I had lots, I don't know, I had forty or fifty clients, I'd just started out on that, and every one of them, I lost every one of those. There was no, although we were licensed, they destroyed us.

MOYEN: Why was it that the company you're talking about, Golden Rule I think? I believe they started running ads or some company started running ads-

TURNER: Against what they were doing.

MOYEN: saying if this passes-

TURNER: We're leaving.

MOYEN: either we're leaving or your healthcare rates are going to go up and all this stuff.

TURNER: And they did.

MOYEN: Why would, did legislators, you know, some people spoke out against that and said, "Oh, they don't know what they're talking about." Did-

TURNER: Oh, yeah. I can name you people that did, plenty of them.

MOYEN: Why was that? Did they ask the-

TURNER: Because, no see, the, you, what you got to do, you got to look at, you've got to look at, lots of their philosophical thinking is that 01:54:00all insurance companies are evil, that everybody is evil but them, you see. And since it is big business, they want to destroy it. That's their philosophical tilt to start with, you know. It is. Those people that are really, you know, living it and breathing it, that's what socialism does. We don't, if we're going to have big business, we're going to be it. They even look, they even tinkered with the idea of setting up a state fund up there to handle it all. They tried that for a while, you know, and it bit them in the tail end good, you know. Sure, that's that philosophical tilt that the Fabians have all got.

MOYEN: Could you tell me a little bit about, in `96, there were issues 01:55:00concerning timber regulation. And you had mentioned in our first interview that timber is an industry that, a real sleeper that Kentucky could get into.

TURNER: Absolutely.

MOYEN: And this, in `96 the lobbyists for timber regulation and environmentalists could not get that legislation passed. You were quoted as saying, "We're not going to tolerate anyone coming in and telling us what to do with our timber."

TURNER: Our land. We are not going to tolerate a group of people who absolutely know nothing about it, just-I've got a, I'll throw this in. I have a nephew that is a well-educated person, speaks Spanish and two or three languages fluently, has been to Chile and everywheres else, but he is absolutely against our government in everything it does, and he has no idea of the things sometimes that he's against, 01:56:00he's just against it. What I'm saying is, I don't want the Citizens for the Commonwealth to come in, a bunch of people from some other, New York or someplace, coming down here telling us how to run our farms. My goodness. You go out there and you look at my farms, and you will find that I don't have any erosion. And I've got about 1,000 acres in here, me and my sons do. It's an investment that we take some pride in. It's for the next generation. Any responsible person can't afford to do that, that's the issue. We don't need somebody, some do-gooder to tell us how to run our business, because we're not stupid. Even if you're in the business, just in a business standpoint, you'd be an idiot to do that. Now, what we may need is some protection from big 01:57:00timber companies that will come in and leave us with these problems. Now, that regulation, I'm for that. But I don't want them telling me out here that I can't cut a limb off from my tree out here and all that stuff. See, really, it gets down to a philosophical issue again. How much interference into private enterprise do you allow and still have private enterprise? You see? So you had to be very careful there. That's what I was really saying. I see the Citizens for the Commonwealth come in, and Fitzgerald and all his crowd. And they've done some good things, and there's some of the issues that those people are for are valid, but there's so many, so much more of it is crazy, you know. They get a bunch of people that aren't representative of the whole. They just pick a bunch of fringe people up in the community, 01:58:00many of them people don't do nothing either, they just-I gave one of them, I threw one of them out of a committee meeting once up there. I told him to leave. He kept, everything I said, he'd shake his head "no." And I told him, I said, "Let me tell you something. You can disagree with me personally, but," I said, "I'm representing my people now. You don't tell me when I'm talking to them that I'm not telling it like it is, because that ain't the way it is." And I said, "You probably never met a payroll. In my opinion," basically I said, "by the looks of you, you never made a payroll," come in there with no, never had bathed and all that stuff, you know. It gets pretty hairy in there sometimes. And sometimes they need just that, because that brings them back from the abyss that they're headed into. And, yeah, I did that. I said that.

MOYEN: Okay. In `96, you decided not to run again. Also in August of 01:59:00`96, Paul Patton let a deadline pass to accept the resignation of the judge-executive, Mitchell Page.

TURNER: Um-hm.

MOYEN: And was that something that you were going to run for?

TURNER: I think I got that nomination.

MOYEN: Right. You got that, the Monroe County Republicans wanted you for that post. They had nominated you. Do you recall the developments around that? What-

TURNER: Well-

MOYEN: why that was an issue and what the, Mitchell Page, had he gotten in trouble, but-

TURNER: They had got in trouble here, the county court clerk and he and the PVA had. There was two different groups of people in the county, and they accused them, brought charges against them saying that they had failed to pay taxes on something. And Mitchell was forced to resign, and the clerk was forced to resign, and the PVA was forced to resign. They accused them of conspiring to deny the state taxes that 02:00:00was lawfully theirs. Well, of course, I'd served a long time, and I actually think that, I think you got to have some years there before you're effective. I really mean that, and I do that because, as I told you before, I don't think you can-if you don't do that, you're going to always have a very weak legislature, because you're not going to not have anybody that knows what's going on. You're going to be run by the people who stay there, which is the staff. And they're going to be the people with the muscle. Well, but I had, I thought maybe that I could come back here and I could put some things that I really wanted to see enacted. I wanted industrial recruitment. I wanted some things 02:01:00like that. I wanted to stress Leadership Monroe County, those types of things where you take your bright people and you expose them to the methods and so on. And I was trying to, what I was really hoping to do was to broaden the involvement here in the county and get it away from the domination of one family or two. And of course I was, I didn't, wasn't overly, overall greeted with enthusiasm, because some of the leaders in the county at that time have, they've always saw me as a threat here, I'll be honest with you. I know that. And they've never allowed me to get my hands on that judgeship in the county. I come within 152 votes of beating them this last time, and I didn't spend a red cent for a vote or nothing. I'm telling you I got that many votes. 02:02:00They spent and bought and used whiskey and everything, and I know that too, including the county attorney now that's enforcing the laws in this county, but that's another question. But the point is, they just never wanted me. They've always tried to keep me out of here, because I would, I was too inquisitive. I asked too many questions. And a few minutes ago, this guy that come in here talking about a vote, we've got a real problem here in the county ASCS office. Well, there have just been one or two families that have been taking every penny that comes through that office, government money. Well, of course, when I found out about it, I was incensed and couldn't get none of the young ones to run, so I run. I'm running against him, and I guess I've got a good chance to win it, but it's just going to be a problem.

MOYEN: Now, ASCS?

TURNER: That's Agriculture Stabilization Committee.

MOYEN: Okay.

TURNER: And that's, most people don't know it exists, but it's another one of those things that distribute enormous amounts of money. And there's three men on it. They run it, basically. And they've been 02:03:00taking it all here, over a quarter of a million dollars, some of them have, soil bank checks and all this stuff, you know, government subsidy checks and, but they have never really wanted me, they know that I, they know what I'll do; I will cause problems and I intend to. I may, if I'm elected I'll probably bring the Inspector General in, which they didn't know there was one. I'll bring an inspector general in, and we go over everything, there may be some people find themselves hanging by a rope, you know what I am saying? I just don't believe that, I mean that way. And you're not helping the young people in the county when you allow that to happen. They need the help, not me. I don't need no help. So that's what I was saying. And that's why I wanted to be judge. That's why I run the last time against my wife and my kids telling me not to do it, I need to slow down and shut up, you know. 02:04:00But that's the way it is. But, see, somebody has to do those things. And you can't be a free man if you don't get your tail in gear and get out there and get involved. I believe that.

MOYEN: Looking back on your legislative career, what would you say were the most contentious issues that you had to deal with, ones that were the most difficult to balance, either your convictions and your constituency or those types of issues that were very difficult?

TURNER: Very difficult issues? You mean it's, well, dealing with KEA was one, educational, the educational gurus again, self-proclaimed solution-finders. I've actually, some of that was so ridiculous at one 02:05:00time that I threw their people out of my office. I can remember that was very emotional. We really had a knock-down, drag-out. I think-

MOYEN: Do you remember what that was over? Was that at the time of KERA or something like that?

TURNER: Well, I can't remember exactly, but I remember he threatened me. And that wasn't nice to threaten me, you know. And I wouldn't let him come in my office to talk to me again. And, of course, abortion issues; all those issues are real emotional, gut-wrenching issues, you know. And it was easy to, it wasn't so hard for me, but I guess a lot of times, those were emotional issues, very emotional issues. And I guess whether it is as much as I think it was or not, my perception of 02:06:00the hobbles that was put on industry sometimes, which could have been handled easier, in other words, you see, I think I still prescribe to that ethic that the least government interference in anything is the best, providing everybody is playing by the rules. Now, my thinking on that is that the government should be used as a big stick out there that will be used if you sin. You follow me?

MOYEN: Yeah.

TURNER: I don't think you need to tell me how I should make business. If there's a standard, we should maintain it. And, but you don't need to hobble me down with things to the point that I can't run my business, you know. And they did that. Just like my brother and my family, he employs about, he did employ three or four hundred people here. He got no help from the state. All he got was taxes and big 02:07:00work comp bills. He'll tell you that. He's-but they played all kinds of job deals there. I remember another bill that I was very-me and Patton, we didn't agree at all on is, this KREDA program. KREDA, are you familiar with KREDA?

MOYEN: No, I'm not.

TURNER: KREDA is a concept that says that if you create a job for a person, you can tax that person up to 6 percent of his job, that goes to paying off the debt that the company created. You follow me?

MOYEN: Um-hm.

TURNER: That would have precedence over, that would have priority over any tax that a little community might have on that employer, you know, workers tax or whatever. That had to come first. Well, you finally, 02:08:00if you go 6 percent there, and he got a 1 or 2 percent or something else, that worker is paying a big hunk of his money to those taxes. And with KREDA, they don't get any part of the ownership of that entity at all. They'll come in, some of these fly-by-nighters would come in, and they would impose that. It had happened in Gamaliel, for instance, over here in, was in my district, a big factory there. They imposed that, and that little town there was suffering for, just surviving as a corporate city. They all of a sudden found that they couldn't tax because they couldn't afford to. They were garment workers, but everybody was employed that wanted work. And they could make $15 an hour on production if they would do it, and a lot of them did. But what they did, they'd bring in a fly-by-night outfit and set 02:09:00it up in business down there, they'd run it for three or four years, these guys would get rich, take bankruptcy, and cut a trail. All the money that they'd taken from the employees, you just take, say, 300 employees, $15,000 a year, how much money that creates that went to paying off their debt. Yet, they had no claim at all to any of that. One of them up here now, Kentucky Apparel, sold out to some Mexicans. And they sold out and got millions of dollars for that, the people lost their job when the Mexicans took over, and they had bought the business basically for this bunch. That kind of stuff smelled to me. And I was opposed to it, and I told Patton I was. And, of course, he didn't like that, but I'm sorry about that, you know what I mean?

02:10:00

MOYEN: Right.

TURNER: That is not, you don't need to, no American should be forced to buy a job. That's wrong. And that's still on the books, by the way. I wonder if Ernie Fletcher will take it off. I'm anxious to see. I would take it off instantly, you know. But that kind of stuff was really hard for me. I think we've made it very difficult in this state for private enterprise to function because we have put too many, we've created a closed shop in the state. Do you know what a closed shop is? We've created a closed shop. It's not so much what we've done, but it's the signals that tell the people that invest, this is the kind of mind you're dealing with. I'm not against the unions, but I am against the unions being given preference, you know? And if you send 02:11:00signals out here that are negative, that means they don't come to your state. They go to Tennessee. They go across to Portland down here, instead of Franklin, you know. And, or they go to Hartsville down there instead of Scottsville, or they go to Red Boiling Springs and Lafayette instead of Tompkinsville and Gamaliel, see. In my district, that was an issue for me that I really had a problem with. And it was the perception more than the actuality, I guess. I think so. And that really was some emotional things that I had to fight, you know. And I did, believe me.

[End of Tape #2, Side #1]

[Begin Tape #2, Side #2]

MOYEN: Have you paid attention at all to, living as close as close as 02:12:00you do to the Tennessee border, to their legislation? And, I mean, no doubt in population, in growth, in per capita income, at one point Kentucky and Tennessee probably resembled each other. And now-

TURNER: Sisters.

MOYEN: now they don't.

TURNER: Why?

MOYEN: Yeah, why? Would, have you thought about that?

TURNER: It's the political, one-party structure that we had. Tennessee come out from under that much longer ago than we did, you know. It's that perception that we were adverse to industry. It's that we were a union hotbed. I'll tell you why that was. We've had some incidences in this state, for instance in eastern Kentucky, labor unions in the coal mines, you know, and all this crap. We've had incidences right over here in, say, Edmonson County where there was a person actually killed 02:13:00over there in a labor riot not too long ago. All of this permeated the thinking towards Kentucky. It was a PR problem as much as anything, but those people have, they didn't help themselves. Tennessee's got more unions than we've got. So why do they keep saddling us with this silliness of closed shop? It ain't right for me as an American, in my opinion, if I don't want to belong to anything to make me belong to it. I just really have a problem with that. But yet, that's what we're really saying, and that's what we're really saying to industry in this state too, you know. It smells to high heaven and it's hurt us. Tennessee is a, has been, you had, you forced the system, when you 02:14:00got choices you forced them to bring their best out. There was no best brought out here. Nobody could challenge it, nobody could challenge them. You know, it's just like I told them on the floor that time when I said they were Sandinistas. They might have had great intentions, but it stunk. I said that to them. I remember the speaker sitting up there. Now, he was who I was talking to. His attitude was that way, condescending: "We're right and you people haven't had an original thought in 100 years." We have had more thoughts than they did, you know. But that's what I'm saying. My brother, for instance, had to take his biggest operation across into Tennessee because of this crap around here. I've told them that 100 times. We just lost Pure-A(??) Water to Tennessee, a big operation, because of our labor attitude. 02:15:00Of course they'd all deny that, but we know really what happened, you know. My brother sold out his operation in Tennessee for big bucks to them, sold the whole thing. So we've still got one factory in Red Boiling, I mean in Tompkinsville, I mean Gamaliel. And he, they've got a small operation then in Tennessee, but it's really quite small. But that's, it's political. It's political, the way we think or the way people perceive that we think. Or I think so.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Could you tell me what your best memories are of serving in the House of Representatives? What are some of your best memories?

TURNER: Well, the fact that you had people that you could talk to that were pretty sharp people overall. I mean, you know, maybe that's, 02:16:00maybe I'm trying to make myself look good, but you had people there that you could talk to. One thing about it, I've learned about life is, you sometimes can find yourself a misfit if you learn too much about things that you perceive to be important. And up there you could always find somebody that you could talk to about an idea that you had. Legislators, many, they may, some of them, you might think, "Man, that's bad. That's a bad looking, that character, he's a nut." Most of the time, those people are, I find that that group, as a group of people, it's really unbelievable how much knowledge they have about things. You'd just be surprised who they are and what they know about. Some of them people are unbelievable, you know, really smart. I mean, 02:17:00of course, I like to study ancient Egypt and all that. You know, I like that. I dabble in it. And British history. Of course, that's what my degree is in. So I will, I was surprised. I never had run across anybody that I could talk to, but I run across a fellow up there that was very, very sharp in that. I was delighted that I run up on a guy like that. You know, finally I used some of that stuff I learned. And that was good. You know, that you get to like, you know, you learn so much there, it's a great experience for you. It's like going to graduate school all your life, really it is, you know. And actually seeing it executed, you know. It's a tough fraternity. It is. It's a 02:18:00tough one, and it's hard to penetrate. You've got to stay there a long time before your word, your word really is more important up there than anything. If you're not, if you don't do what you say you're going to do, then you have no credibility. But if you do what you say, even if it hurts sometimes, that increases your status as a legislator, you know. And you've got to always understand that those people have a constituency, and you don't really look into whether that constituency is informed or not informed, but he has one.

MOYEN: Right. And knows them if he's there.

TURNER: Um-hm. That's the truth, but those are good days. And, of course, you know, I was there, I was the guy that blew the whistle on 02:19:00Terry Mann, the rubber band voter. A lot of people don't know that.

MOYEN: Tell me about that.

TURNER: Who, him?

MOYEN: Uh-huh.

TURNER: Well, one day, one of the people from northern Kentucky who was watching him more than I was come to me, and he said, "Terry Mann's not been on the floor all day, and he's been voted every time." So I watched it. I went to the back end and sat there, and I saw (laughs) the next vote. Terry voted (both laugh). And I watched it another time or two to make sure I was right. And I went to the speaker, and I said, "Speaker," I said, "Terry Mann is being voted." And I said, "He, you know, that's not correct. I mean he can't, you can't do things like that." And he said, "I'll check it out in a minute." Didn't get alarmed. Took it, as a matter of fact, because I think he knew about it personally. That was Blandford. He was down in Louisville and 02:20:00he'd voted all day, the rubber band man. They always had it in for me and Art Schmidt and some of us over that, too. I always, I knew they did. Of course, they'd deny that. And that's fine, I understand, but we know they did. You know, we put the hooks in him. Actually ended his political career because, you know, he run for Congress. He never could get over after that. Until then he was always, you know, the bright and shining star. And he run the Education Committee. Just run it, basically. Ended up, he didn't even have a degree. That had all been a lie, too. They found it later on. See what I am saying? I know. They sent a group of us one time to, well, they sent a group of us to Austin, Texas, to, on an educational, futuristic educational, how 02:21:00it's going to be in twenty years, and so on and so forth. And he was supposed to be at that meeting, and he never showed up. He was down in Mexico, I know, the whole time we were working. So I had nothing good about Terry, and I figured they, it was payback time on some of us. They tried to dirty mouth us and-

MOYEN: Right.

TURNER: but, you know, they did stuff like that. They could do it because they had so many votes at that time. It was terrible. Poor old Art Schmidt. I've seen him stand up, up there for fifteen minutes and never get recognized. Just stand there. That's when he was floor leader, and I thought, "My God, them sorry. That's wrong to do a man that way." Art Schmidt, I have a high regard for Art Schmidt. Let me tell you something. He was a, he is a good man. Good man, he was.

MOYEN: Any, and you had mentioned one or two of these last time after the mike was off. Any good stories about the legislature that you 02:22:00wouldn't get from researching in the papers or legislative journals or-

TURNER: Well, we talked about some of those, I believe. You know, we talked some about the, Mae Street and some of them, you know, and some of that. I remember one time, we'll go back to Mae Street once. She was always for her people, and let me tell you, she was. And Louisville, she was always for her constituency. Well, one time she had made a deal with the Speaker of the House, Bobby Richardson, to (laughs), she had made a deal with Bobby to support her bill, but he had voted against it some way or another. And they, some of them convinced Mrs. Kidd that Bobby could just vote you any way he wanted to, you know. And she raised Cain, got up and was aggrieved, and done the worst there ever was. And finally he got out of it by claiming 02:23:00the Senate done it, and she charged through the door and went to the Senate and raised Cain on the floor, you know, stuff like that. It was always some kind of slapstick like that. I remember one time that Sam McCracken over in, down in west Kentucky, Sam would get up every day and he had the job of reading (laughs), he had the job of reading the Journal. The Journal is a newspaper that has every bill in it every day. And his job was to get up and, "Mr. Speaker, we have reviewed the Journal and so on and so forth and find it blah-blah-blah." One day (laughs), I'm not going to say who I think did this, but they got essence of skunk and put it on the microphone that he was using. And 02:24:00he started off, it didn't hit him, evidently, just right. And he started off, and then when he got a whiff of it, he began to speed up his delivery. And finally, he just become overcome and he hollered real loud, "Wheew!" So we had some of that, you know. You get [telephone rings] wacky kind of, you know, you kind of-just a minute please. [Pause in taping]. Yeah, I want to tell you another one or two.

MOYEN: Okay.

TURNER: But as I said, Mrs. Kidd was a, she was a novelty. She was such a lady. Very proper. One time they got us in a-

MOYEN: Did you say she was your seatmate?

TURNER: She sat by "Woody" Allen of all people.

MOYEN: Okay.

TURNER: And, of course, I sat right behind her, and I liked her. I always liked her. I found her interesting. And, of course, a lot of my jokes would be on her because she was such a strong Democrat. But 02:25:00she liked me, and she liked "Woody" pretty good. And one day we went in real early. We didn't get any breakfast. It was a time, got to be a time up there when they was just going to, just kill us (laughs) or make us vote with them. They'll just wear you out. I mean finally you just, they make you leave, and they vote while you're gone or something. If you, you had staying power, you had to have staying power. Well, they put, brought us in real early, and at one or two o'clock we still hadn't eat anything. I mean we were still there. And they finally, we waited them out more than they anticipated. And they finally agreed to send pages out and get us some sandwiches. So they, you know, they come by and, "What do you want," and you'd write down you wanted a Big Mac or you wanted so and so, and we'd eat at the desk. 02:26:00Well, they come back and they said, the kids did, with our food, Had boxes of food, and they come by and they set it on our desk. Well, some of us were so hungry, we just eat our food and didn't wash our hands or anything, but not Mrs. Kidd. Mrs. Kidd got up and she went to the bathroom and she soaped her hands up, and she washed her hands. While she was gone, "Woody" Allen, her Big Mac was up there. He got her Big Mac out, he's a big guy anyway, he held that Big Mac like this, and he bit down on it and he just made a crescent out of it. You know what I mean (laughs)? He put it back in the box. He put it back in the box, and Mrs. Kidd, she come back all prim and proper, and she took 02:27:00a nice lace handkerchief out and she put it down on her desk. And, of course, I was watching them. And she put that out, and she reached up and got her burger, and she said, and she gasped, "Oh, oh, the kind of help that you must hire anymore" (both laugh). She didn't know that "Woody" had, he never did tell her. She thought that some guy did it at the McDonald's. She was going to start a suit against them. Done the worst I've ever seen. But just some of that stuff, you know was, to me that was so funny. You have adults doing stuff like that, you know. One time, as I told you, well, sometimes it could get pretty brutal. I mean some of that stuff could get brutal, you know. And you'd finally, after a while you learned what the press was looking 02:28:00for. If you were halfway sharp, you could always get in print. You know what to do, you know. If you wanted to, you wanted a write-up in the paper, you could get it real easy, but you had to know how and when. And we deducted that the press-we studied it. We deducted that the press liked, they would print almost anything on Saturday because they wanted off too, like everybody else. That was easy to print, you know. They'd get a little something, a pretty good story then, and on Mondays. That's when you play to the press or play to the, you know. So we've learned that pretty, and we actually planned it. We'd drop a bombshell on them or a full press release on those days, and it 02:29:00would always get run, see. Because we took in the fact that newspaper people are lazy like everybody else. We figured that out pretty fast, you know. But they would, I remember, well, I don't guess some of these stories need to go on in, on the film, but, now, sometimes it was absolutely hilarious, some of that stuff was. And they'd tell tales. And I remember Brother Moseley, a Methodist preacher, a nice fellow, you know, he really was, up at Adair County. He was a good guy. He was always, we would pick at him some, you know, and he loved it. He loved to be picked at, but he was a good man and he, we was always telling him tales, and sometimes we'd just make up a tale and tell it on ourselves. And I told him once, I made it up on myself. And I told him about when we went to church out here in a one-room, these 02:30:00churches. You see them? That's a pew.

MOYEN: That's an old pew? Uh-huh.

TURNER: And we bought, any of us that bought a pew later on, they gave us one of those benches. And I've sat many an hour on that and listened to a preacher preach for two hours. Notice they're slatted. Well, we had a school real close to the church house. And when they had a revival meeting in the mornings, back then at ten o'clock, they would march us down to school, from the whole school down there, and we would have to sit in the center of the church. About three or four seats back in the center we'd sit down, and the teacher would sit behind us. So we had to go, regardless of what denomination you were, you had to go and you had to listen to the sermon. And you'd, he'd preach for two hours. It would be dinner, and you'd be hungry (Moyen laughs) and you'd be tired, you'd be sweating, because there was 02:31:00no air- conditioning. It was just really, I mean you had to be tough to stand it all, you know. And I made this story up, and I told him. I told him, I said, "I never will forget it." I went into all this spiel, you know, about this. "And they marched us down and they set us down." And I said, "In a few minutes, this dear little old lady and some more come in and sat right down in front of us." And I went in to the descriptive deals of the kind of dress she had on, a little old voile dress. "And the preacher preached for two and a half hours." And I said, "Mother always told us to be kind to old people. And she was real old. She could hardly walk. And she sat down in front of us, and the preacher preached for about two hours, and finally he said, 'Stand and we'll sing,' make the altar call and so on. And that was another hour at least. And in the meantime, her clothes stuck to her. And she stood up. When she stood up, her clothes had stuck to her. She was 02:32:00sweating, perspiring. So I was right behind her." And I told him, I said "Her clothes just, they clung to her body totally." And I said, "I reached, I noticed her butt was showing through it, so I just reached up and pulled the dress out." And I said, "She turned around and smacked me, and I put it back in, and she smacked me again (laughs)!" And Brother Moseley, it tore him all to pieces! Oh me! And every time he'd see me-but you know, some of that sort of thing. We had, we was always, we'd get together and we'd tell tales like that, you know. And some of that was pretty funny.

MOYEN: Uh-huh. So tell me, what are you doing these days?

TURNER: Me?

MOYEN: Uh-huh.

TURNER: Whatever I want to.

MOYEN: Well, good (both laugh). Well, good.

02:33:00

TURNER: Well, I tell you what I do. I run this farm. I run the farm, and I run most of the farms, the kids' farms, too. And I tend, take care of quite a few cattle. And we've got tobacco. But I am retired five times and I, I'm still, although I'm retired from the insurance company, I still have a contract. And this year, if I'd been on active duty, you might say, full- time, I would have made considerably more than I would have been required to make as a full- time agent. So I handle, like I say, I handle, I do annuities and life insurance on families and things like this. You know, I just do it basically when people call me, and a lot of them do. And it's been, that's been really, real rewarding. And I go to the schools and read. And I have 02:34:00camps, I have three Modern Woodmen camps where we bring our people in every month and we feed them. We have dinners and we have projects and we clean. We raise money for people that are indigent and heart attacks, or maybe heart or liver replacements. I help do a lot of that stuff. And I'm really, I really don't have any time. I'm involved in the Lions Club, in the Masons, and I'm a Shriner, and I, you know, I just, I'm so busy, I don't have enough time to slow down. I'm very busy. I'm not a bit bored. I find, I stay busy all the time. I sometimes like I say, I get lonesome to, you don't have, we don't have a lot of people, sometimes some of us do, we get together and we talk, but you miss that more than anything else, I think. You know, you can 02:35:00read a lot. I read a lot. I've thought about writing a book or two. I thought about that. I may do it yet, but I guess I might be getting too old, I don't know. But I have a lot of things I'm involved in. I mean I might get involved in anything. And I never said I wouldn't run for office again. But the family is opposed to it. They don't want me to. Because I want, you know, just a lot of grandkids and I keep busy. In the summer, we swim a lot and we do things like that or we fish. I don't hunt. I don't kill things unless I have a reason to. So, you know, that's basically what I do. And if I want to speak out on something, I do it now. I don't have to even be careful. I'll just tell you what I think (Moyen laughs), you know. I think it's pretty good, I have had a good life. I've, I have. I've been very fortunate, I really have. I've been lucky. I had to put myself through college 02:36:00and everything, but I've done about everything I wanted to, but lead a charge up, up you know, like Theodore Roosevelt, I always wanted to lead a charge up San Juan Hill (Moyen laughs). And that's one thing I didn't get to do, but one of my boys has helped do that, so that's okay. Yeah. But when I was a kid, I always, I was always studying about, I read a lot of history, even as a kid, and I, and that was my, one of my, them were my relish, so I got in the service as early as I could. I volunteered and went in. And if I was a young man again, I would go, gosh I don't know what I'd do. I'd be there, though. I'd go somewhere. It's been fun. It's really been fun. I may live to be 150 or so.

MOYEN: Well good.

TURNER: The other day they were look, wanting, my wife had become an organ donor years ago. I never would do it. The other night they made an appeal and I signed the card to do it. And I said, "The reason I'm 02:37:00doing that is because, number one, I've got a steel knee now. It's been, the leg has been cut on, and I've got a steel knee here." And I said, "I'm full of PVC and springs in here, and they ain't going to get nothing anyway" (laughs). They could get the same thing out of a junkyard, so maybe they won't use mine. It will make me look good besides. You know what I mean? So she didn't like that too good. She's more, she's very serious, and I am not. And she thought I was (laughs)-but that's about the way it is, you know. I do about what I want to, you know. Don't want nothing. I really don't need nothing. I like to learn all I can, though. I'm very inquisitive.

MOYEN: Well, thank you so much for your time.

TURNER: Enjoyed this.

MOYEN: I appreciate it. You've been-

TURNER: Good to meet you.

MOYEN: great to interview.

[End of Interview]

02:38:00