MOYEN: The following is an unrehearsed interview with Sam Thomas, who
served in the Kentucky House of Representatives. The interview was conducted by Eric Moyen for University of Kentucky's Oral History Program and the Kentucky Legislature Oral History Project. The interview was conducted on February 12, 2004, in Frankfort, Kentucky.[Pause in recording.]
MOYEN: Okay, I'm here with, uh, Mr. Sam Thomas, who served House
District Twenty-Four from 1972 to 1986, or through the '86 session, I guess, in--THOMAS: -- -----------(??)--
MOYEN: --and, I mean, until decided not to run again. Thanks for meeting
with me. Um, let me start just by asking you a little bit about your family background, uh, how far back can you trace your genealogy, and, and how long has your family been in Kentucky that you know of?THOMAS: Well, at first my family came from Maryland, and, I, uh, you
00:01:00can go way back and trace clear back to Maryland, clear back to Ire-, I mean, England, really.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: So, I have a, a niece who lives in Lexington who's traced it all
the way back. They came in, they came into Kentucky in the late 1700s.MOYEN: Wow.
THOMAS: And, uh, from down in, uh, what was then probably Washington
County. And at that time Washington County and, uh, Marion County was taking off(??)--MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --Washington County(??)--
MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: -- ------------(??), so it goes a way back to.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And, uh, they were, uh, moved to which is a very Catholic area.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Which is, was either in Lebanon, Kentucky, or in a little
community called Calvary. So, they were fairly prominent--MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --in that area. And always told my brother, I looked back at my
great-grandfather and even my grandfather, and, uh, he didn't, I didn't 00:02:00tell it, he told me, he said, he said, "Sam, we the only people I know that's being gonna backwards for two hundred years." (both laugh) So, I, I said, "Well, maybe we can, maybe the next generation go back and pick up where we were(??).MOYEN: Um-hm. Um, a lot of people when I ask that question, they just
tell about their grandparents or whatever, but you, you knowing so much about your family, do you know where they were, say, like in a, like, in the Civil War where they stood on, or, or was your family divided, like a lot of others(??)?THOMAS: I think they were divided. I had, uh, one of my, which it would
be, great-grandfather, I guess, he was a, uh, Union officer. I'm not sure about the other--(laughs).MOYEN: Um-hm. Um, so, now could you tell when you were born and where
you were born?THOMAS: I was born in Lebanon, Kentucky--
MOYEN: --okay--
THOMAS: --on January 1, 1925.
MOYEN: Okay. All right.
00:03:00THOMAS: I was born on New Year's Day.
MOYEN: All right.
THOMAS: There were things I did kinda in my life that was ---------(??)
with New Years Day, and I left to go to Japan on St. Patrick's Day. So, the two kinda worked together. (both laugh)MOYEN: Um-hm. Um-hm. Um, now, born in 1925, so some of your first
memories, um, political memories, were probably during the Great Depression. Would that be correct?THOMAS: And that was almost true, uh. That, unfortunately that, uh, my
dad, although during the Depression, lost two or three farms, someway, by, I would say, the time I was ten, uh--MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: --actually we weren't living hard. I only did that after I
became a teacher. (both laugh) But, uh, so, I didn't see it from, uh, poverty standpoint.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: At, at all.
00:04:00MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: I mean, now, I know most politicians tell the stories about how
they grew up with no running water, and even though I lived on a farm, we actually had it. We had our own system. And, and we had a Delco plant for electricity. So, I just don't believe all these politicians--MOYEN: --right--
THOMAS: --I listen to, grew up, you know, starving. -----------(??)
(Moyen laughs) Makes a great story--MOYEN: --right, um-hm--
THOMAS: --to run.
MOYEN: Um-hm. Um, in terms of political philosophy, uh, when you were
around the dinner table, uh, did you parents talk about a lot about politics?THOMAS: Well, my dad liked politics. The only difference between, and
I never had truthfully, really, I never guess I even thought about it that much later, but he, he liked politics. And the difference between he and, and myself is that he always said the best thing to do is elect them; don't do it yourself.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: But he was very active, in, uh, in politics.
MOYEN: Um-hm. He was in, in what, what ---------(??)?
THOMAS: Well, he, you know, he, I'm sure helped elect, or used to, you
00:05:00know, they did that a lot then, that was the social life, as much as anything else--MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: --the way I got into it(??). I mean, he was involved in county
elections and state elections, and whatever he, uh, it seemed to be a social thing as anything else(??).MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Now he had, uh, he was part owner of a tobacco warehouse.
So, he followed that issue somewhat even, he went to Washington, I remember, back when tobacco got down to whatever it was, three cents a pound, or eight cents a pound, and, and talked. So, I know he was active in, in, a little bit in that, that one area.MOYEN: Um-hm. Did he--okay.
THOMAS: Um-hm.
MOYEN: Um, but you said he, he never ran for any political office.
THOMAS: No, he said, "You should, you elect them--(laughs)--
MOYEN: --right--
THOMAS: --put the other guy--
MOYEN: --get, get somebody else to do. Um, can you tell me a little
bit about what politics in Marion County in the thirties, forties, late twenties, you're growing up, what that was like? What were the most powerful positions? Um, or, or-- 00:06:00THOMAS: --well, it seemed like that, uh, he and one of his, actually, one
of his partners did run for county clerk, and he was what you call the patronage man in, in the Frankfort, uh, I'd say in the forties, anyway.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: The late thirties and forties. Uh, then it seems like then that
certain people in certain areas in little towns, they kinda controlled what, what happened.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And I'm not sure it wasn't just as better, just as good as it
is now.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Because, but each little place, and even when I started running,
you went to certain people in certain little towns and try to get their support.MOYEN: Um-hm. Um, your education, you ended up teaching. Was there
anyone in your educational experience that influenced you to go into that, in particular?THOMAS: I, I taught government. So, I did have, you know, an interest
00:07:00in it.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And, uh, and I would say in the beginning was probably at
the time because we made such small salaries that I had to come to truthfully only to Frankfort a couple times in my life and one of them I came up here, uh, with the superintendent for whatever I was doing, to try to influence, I guess, some, some legislator.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Get some people I knew that, uh, you know, to help education.
And, and there was a strike back at one time and I'm pretty sure I came in.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: But that was about the extent of my, now I had(??) brought some
of my students up here a couple of times.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: But, uh, but I didn't know my way around is what ----------(??)--
MOYEN: --right, um-hm. So, my thinking about when you were born, right
after high school, did you enlist in the service?THOMAS: Not exactly, I, uh, I was draft-age, but I'm basically blind
00:08:00in my right eye. And, uh, I have something like 20/200 on both, they never would have accepted me, but I kept getting turned down and turned down, and whatever I did, I started an insurance agency. I did this and that. I was always, uh, been called up. And I think frankly the last time I was called up, I kinda memorized the bottom of the chart. And even though I could only see the E--MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --and, uh, so this is how I--
MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --ended up in the service. But it was more, I got, I just
couldn't get anywhere(??), I couldn't get anything started, and all my friends was gone. So, for my age, actually I went into the Korean War, and I could've gone in, you know, during World War II, so.MOYEN: Okay.
THOMAS: But that was ----------(??), that was the reason because.
MOYEN: Um-hm, did you see, um, any action--
THOMAS: --not really, I, uh, although I, most of my time was spent, I
went to, uh, up to Washington, D.C., and that was in, what you'd call 00:09:00the -----------(??) for three or four months. And, uh, which was on the grounds(??) around Arlington.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And then, I don't whether it's true or not, but we were told
everybody under 5'9" was shipped overseas. So, we didn't look too --- -------(??) up there, around the Unknown Soldier's Tomb, but I did know that they ship everybody over 6'2" and under 5'10", because I --------- ---(??)MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And I spent most of my time in Japan. And, uh, I was very
fortunate that, uh, some way I ended up in Special Service, I'm not sure why that was, although maybe somewhere it, it, it showed that I had done some coaching for a little, a small, little Catholic high school in London(??) where I went. I'm not sure. But anyway, I ended up there. And, and, uh, it was maybe the best job I ever had. I was over, uh, had a captain who was interested enough in being the 00:10:00quarterback for Bear Bryant's Alabama team. (Moyen laughs) And so, he was the boss, but I had, we had, uh, all types of facilities there(??) for about ten thousand troops. And, uh, I know we had nine softball fields. We had everything there.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And, uh, primarily that's what I did. Then, I don't know,
sounds like a fish story, but it's true. Some, one day, he told me that, uh, he had put on an Army team together there, and because there's gonna be Olympic trials for the far east command(??). So, he told me to go over to headquarters and see if there's any coaches there. And I came back, and I said, I was about half-kidding, I said, "Well, I'm the best coach here." At that time, I had been at UK(??) and Louisville, under Adolph. And, uh, he says, "Why don't you do it?" I said, "I can't do it; I'm a corporal." And he said, "Well, we'll just make you an officer." And he said, "You got a sweatshirt." I said, 00:11:00"Yeah." He says, "Well, you just wear it for the next six months then." So, basically, although most people knew it, I mean, they didn't, when I went on the road and all, coaching, taking the team, why, I wore a sweatshirt so everybody thought I was an officer. (both laugh) I was a corporal. And we did real well. We went to the finals of the far east command(??). You know, that was something fairly ---------(??)--MOYEN: --sure--
THOMAS: --there--
MOYEN: --sure. Um-hm--
THOMAS: --and I, I'll tell you a funny story. When I went up to get
the trophy, now he, I, I asked him, Captain, Captain ----------(??), I said, "How about you wearing that, uh, not sure to wear(??)," he says, "You better still wear that sweatshirt cause Army Times is ----------- (??)." (Moyen laughs) Anyway, that's, it worked out real well for me.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And I enjoyed it.
MOYEN: Um-hm. So, now did you go, you mentioned you were at UK some--
THOMAS: --then I came back home and graduated.
MOYEN: Okay.
THOMAS: I graduated in 1955.
00:12:00MOYEN: Okay. And then, um, you mentioned, did you attend parochial
schools?THOMAS: Yes, I went to, uh, St. Augustine, uh, high school and grade
school.MOYEN: Okay.
THOMAS: We were just a small school but we had, uh, unbelievable good
athletes.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And not that I was one of them. But, uh, uh, in fact, uh, one
of our boys was, I was the quarterback, and he played halfback, went to Notre Dame, and played halfback, and they won thirty straight, the Blue Jacket, that era of--MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --uh, Leahy and them.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And I don't think one game that I remember. So, it was amazing
that a boy from a school that probably had seventy-five boys in it, but we played Danville and we played -----------(??).MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: We had, we had a fine coach. He, he even convinced me that
I could play, you know. (Moyen laughs) I had to be him(??); I'm not convinced that he had. And I would say that's what influenced me to go 00:13:00into coaching.MOYEN: Um-hm. Um-hm.
THOMAS: Uh, before we turn it on--
MOYEN: --okay.
[Pause in recording.]
MOYEN: We were talking about football, and, um, let me hear a little bit
about your coach.THOMAS: Well, I would say that I really meant to be a football coach.
I never dreamed when I went to college that I would end up being a basketball coach when I originally went. And, but, uh, when I got to Japan and kinda got the offer, then I end up coaching basketball, and when I got out of college, the first job that opened up, I, I really thought I may go back to the high school that I graduated from.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: But by that time they had dropped football.
MOYEN: Okay.
THOMAS: And, uh, a basketball job was opened. So, I kinda got, uh,
coming around a little bit, but I ended up coaching some football, backfield(??) for another school. So, I was coaching basketball, and went to school, and coaching the, the backfield in another school, where I went didn't help them(??).MOYEN: Okay.
THOMAS: And it was small(??). And, uh, and then I was coaching against
00:14:00my, same people I was coaching in this football and basketball. (both laugh) It worked out real well. But as far as my coaching, I think the greatest compliment you can give to me, and I know a lot of people don't like he either, he had to do what he had to do, since we had such a small school, and I always said he made Bobby Knight look like a altar boy. So. (Moyen laughs) It was so true(??). (both laugh) Some of my students later said I was as bad.MOYEN: And how long did you coach basketball?
THOMAS: I, altogether, about twenty years, uh.
MOYEN: Okay.
THOMAS: Almost that long. It's actually seventeen, I guess, because
I won for the General Assembly, I had, you know, I took a leave of absence, so I couldn't really coach anymore.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And then they closed school about that time, and they
consolidated into what is now Marion County High School.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: So, we had, uh, we really had, uh, five high schools in the
county at the time.MOYEN: Um-hm. And what did you say the name of the school was before
00:15:00it closed?THOMAS: Uh, it was called St. Francis High School--
MOYEN: --okay--
THOMAS: --it's in Loretta.
MOYEN: Okay.
THOMAS: Which is better known for Markers Mark than--
MOYEN: --yeah--
THOMAS: --my coaching(??). (both laugh)
MOYEN: Okay--
THOMAS: --but we, we did real well.
MOYEN: Um-hm. And, and once the school was consolidated, did you move
over to Marion County?THOMAS: No, I went to, uh, a junior high, because that made it easier
for, to get a sub student.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: You know, it just worked better(??).
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: I really stayed in the same area just about, but it was a grade
school.MOYEN: Okay.
THOMAS: And then I did coach, uh, the eighth and ninth grade football
teams for--MOYEN: --um-hm----
THOMAS: --six, seven years.
MOYEN: Okay.
THOMAS: And really liked it(??)--
MOYEN: --um-hm, um-hm. Um.
THOMAS: And I coached baseball also at the, a regional(??) high school.
I coached every team, just about every team.MOYEN: Wow. Um-hm. Stayed busy, I'm sure.
THOMAS: Every day of the year, I had a Babe Ruth team in the summers.
So, as soon as school was out, we, I coached a Babe Ruth team. 00:16:00Generally, I coached the all-star team. We went to state several times for it.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: So, I guess I coached every day of my life--
MOYEN: --um-hm----
THOMAS: at that time.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And probably still would, if it comes down to it(??).
MOYEN: Um-hm. So, why don't you tell me a little bit about your
decision to get in-, involved in politics? How did that happened?THOMAS: To be honest about it, uh, a person who lived in Larue County,
now my district was big. It was Hart, Larue, and Marion County, which really from, uh, Lebanon to Cave City, it's about seventy-five miles.MOYEN: It's pretty big for a House district.
THOMAS: A House seat.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: But what it had, it'd been germane by, uh, Louie Nunn, and, uh,
which, uh, really I thought a lot of. Uh, to save a Republican, and, and not knowing any better, I ran and, and some way or other, I got some breaks in Hart County, and, and, uh, I won, uh, in the election. 00:17:00But, now as I look back at it, I don't how, I only had ten, ten precincts in my home county. And I'd, I'd decided if I'd coach some in Larue, and then I don't even know if I'd been Hart County, except to go through there to Bowling Green. (Moyen laughs) So, I was really--MOYEN: --um-hm----
THOMAS: --I guess where I was(??), everybody knew who I was(??).
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: But anyway, it happened, now the first, uh, the one time I was,
we had a senator that quit, and some people approached me about taking a, just taking an appointment, and some reason I even just didn't want to do it, to ---------(??)----------. But, uh, I turned that down. I guess that's when I got to thinking about it. And, uh, the original senator was from, uh, Bardstown, he's from, cause that happened after I was already elected.MOYEN: Okay.
THOMAS: It's been so--
MOYEN: --okay--
THOMAS: --long ago, right after that.
MOYEN: Okay.
THOMAS: And, uh, so I'll go back to when I first ran, and I got a call
00:18:00from a man who said, said, "Well, I grew up in Marion County," his name was -----------(??). "And knew your dad, knew where you was born," and all that. Said, uh, "We've been talking about representatives," cause, uh, the reason(??) was the, the one then was a Republican. And said, "Somebody, some people say that you're the candidate." And I said, "Why me?" I mean, I never did thought about it.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And he said, "Well, just looking at everything, and looking, you
know, you coach and people know a little bit of who you are. And maybe not as much in, ----------(??) running in as another," but anyway, to make a long story short, I ran. Uh, I had gotten a call from actually Joe Hall called me about coaching out in Danville when he was out there. He and I are good friends at UK.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: But I, that's the same time I really had, uh, just filed for
00:19:00the state legislature. So, I ran real well at home. And, uh, I didn't(??), down in Hart County, I, to tell the truth about it, I went down there and I thought, My goodness, it's bigger than Texas down here. And, uh, I had known a referee(??) who was a, a circuit clerk, by the ------------(??). And I went to him and talked to him, and he said, "Well, why don't you go see this certain lawyer." Said, "He's a big Wendell Ford person, and I bet you are too." I said, "Yeah." And he, I went over and talk to him. He was younger than I was. And he didn't say very much, and he basically said, "Well, the fellow you're running against I just don't particularly like him too well." I didn't know what to think, so I went home. I don't see how I can win. So, I go back down to tell him, you know. And, uh, he said, uh, "What can you do in Marion County?" I said, "Now," I told him I get, you know, 00:20:00eighty-some percent of the vote. I didn't know. I ended up doing a little better than that. But I can't believe that now.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: I can't imagine it, now I'm thinking of it. But he said, "Well,
if you do that," said, uh, "You know some people in Larue, that's where the, uh, representatives from." He said, "We'll carry Hart County for you ---------(??) vote." And I said, "What?" He said, "Yeah," and I said, "What do you want me to do?" He said, "You can come back if you want to." (both laugh) So, but I went back a little bit, and, uh, he's(??) kinda left-handed. I grew up in Marion County, where it's wet(??), and coaching at Loretta where Markers Mark was, and the other two counties were dry. And kinda, and, uh, and even to be honest about it, at that time, you know, it certainly worked out to my advantage, and, uh, I think it really helped me. He said it did. But I was just Catholic, and Catholics didn't drink too much, it wasn't any, you know-- 00:21:00MOYEN: --um-hm----
THOMAS: But I was told later that they felt sorry me(??). ---------
-(??) it worked out real well, and, uh, so, election night there's an hour difference in the times, from my home to his--MOYEN: --okay--
THOMAS: -- ------------(??) I guess. So I, when I got to Hart County,
why, uh, I was up, uh, I think about five or six hundred votes. And I thought, My goodness. And so, I went to his house and he was smiling. I said, "What happened?" He said, "You carried the thirty-one, just like I said." ---------(??) So. (both laugh) So after that, I stayed, I did real well down there in elections.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Uh, I learned a lot of people and I like it down there. And
they, they didn't ask me to do a whole lot. Uh, they were politically, a lot more politically inclined than my county; they knew all about Frankfort. They knew where to go. And, uh, ole Thelma Stovall, I 00:22:00believe, had been born there. And so, and they, they said, "Look, you know, we know how to take of the roads; you just, you make ------ ---(??) friends(??)." And so, that part of it was the real easy thing, you know.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And they served me, taught me a lot. I mean, heck, I was so
green I didn't know, you know, even anything about politics. But they wrote the book. (laughs)MOYEN: Um-hm. Um-hm. So--
THOMAS: -- -------------(??)--------- especially people who knew me,
and later on, they knew, uh, I had a strong farm background. Oh, my dad died, you know, when I was in high school, but I had a strong farm background because he had a tobacco warehouse.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: I, uh, worked at a stockyard. And the other two counties,
people knew him more than they knew me.MOYEN: Okay. Um-hm.
THOMAS: And then, uh, generally I would say it would've been education.
MOYEN: Okay.
THOMAS: And, uh, I had a special love for the young, you know.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: So, I don't remember. It was a lot of -------------(??) I don't
think I did. 00:23:00MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And I'm not sure now even it was any ----------(??).
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Especially if you, you can't produce, you know.
MOYEN: Right, right. So, when you, um, first elected, did you go down
to Kentucky Dam State--THOMAS: --yes, I went down there--
MOYEN: --Village. Tell me what's that like.
THOMAS: Well, it was, we went, and I was a freshman. So, we went down
there. And, and, uh, that's where they, uh, elected leadership.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: You know the speaker and all.
MOYEN: Right.
THOMAS: And, uh, generally the governor was there. And, uh, I don't
remember whether the first one, where I went, Wendell or not, I remember, uh, especially Julian.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Him being there, and, uh, we met first time we probably ever
seen him, you know, I never seen the other legislators hardly. And they, uh, a lot of, that's where, what few lobbyists were around were down there.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And they had little receptions and this and that. But most of
00:24:00it was politicking who would be the speaker of the House.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And, uh, who you were for. And it was very difficult, because
I didn't, I didn't really know anybody. In fact, I don't remember who I really voted for. So. First it was Kenton, and then Richardson, and then Blandford.MOYEN: Right.
THOMAS: Of course, later on I knew who.
MOYEN: I guess, was Norb Blume there?
THOMAS: Yeah, well, when Norb Blume was there, it was my first one. And
he was a great speaker. He had controlled. I'm glad you brought that up. And Kenton, -------------(??).MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And, uh, he watched over freshman pretty well. And, uh, of
course, some of them, some reason, they, I'm sure they looked at my background before they put me on certain committees. I mean, I don't think it was an accident.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Cause I ended up on what it is now L & O. And, uh, which was
really BOP at the time. And I'm sure because where I was born, Lebanon 00:25:00was wet, there's no doubt in my mind actually the one I end up on. In fact, after I got to be chairman, I picked them the same way, if I could.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Because it's a committee that's very tough.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: It's, uh, certain people, I mean, friends have no business on
that committee, because you deal with, with the toughest issues I think that are here. You have, uh, thousands of people are licensed.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And, uh, including all the racing laws, which could be the, you
know, the gambling, the off-track betting, and simulcasting, and then you have all the liquor laws.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: You know.
MOYEN: And all that went through the business--
THOMAS: --yes--
MOYEN: -- business, organizations, and professions(??)--
THOMAS: --and that's not counting, they were the two toughest ones for
people that lived in certain areas, especially if it's dry.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: So, uh, you weren't, aren't doing anybody a service by putting
them on there that, you know, it, it hurt them, you know, even though 00:26:00they may believe what they were doing was like, like say, when, when Kentucky law passed to, where you could sell cocktails on Sunday, uh, so you could get conventions. We couldn't get any conventions in the state. And so, like the, well, the Galt House in Louisville, or anywhere.MOYEN: Right.
THOMAS: And so, you know, laws like that were tough for some people to
vote, even though they probably knew that probably I shouldn't be doing ----------(??) anyway. So, that committee, it's not for everyone.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: You know, although I don't know, I had two counties that were
dry, but it didn't seem to affect me that much.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Some people thinks it does. But I think it--
MOYEN: --um-hm----
THOMAS: --you know, what you're doing is legal, I think it didn't affect
me, which surprises a lot of legislators I'm sure.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: But I never did see any -----------(??)---------.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: But, you see, you got engineers, architects, geologists, you
got real estate, CPAs, uh, accountants, psychologists, psychiatrists, sociologists, sometimes you go around in your mind, I used to think, 00:27:00I'm sitting there, the chairman of the House, I know how much education psychiatrists have.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Anybody who needs one is us. (Moyen laughs) Or a psychologist,
and then you determine how many hours.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And you did the same thing for all of them, the engineers, and
architects, and geologists, and then, you won't believe it, but even the cosmologists and the barbers fought a lot, you know, over this(??)--MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: It was always a real exciting committee. You make five thousand
mad today and five thousand happy--MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --you know. (Moyen laughs) It's no place for the weak.
MOYEN: Right. And that, you know, obviously that's the committee that
ended up in the nineties getting in so much trouble. Did you kind of, afterwards, thank your lucky--THOMAS: --I was not--
MOYEN: --thank your lucky stars that you were--
THOMAS: --well, I tell you, I, I really did. Uh, and that's a story of
its own. I, but, uh, for some reason, they tell me about a hundred--you know, not only that I've been chairman of the--up to '86, or six years 00:28:00----------(??), but I was lobbying for two or three racetracks. So, if anybody was involved in racing, it'd been me, all my whole career here.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Which at that time had been twenty years, and that's all I've
done. And, uh, uh, so when it all broke, I heard they talked to a hundred people, but I was never even talked to. I never--MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --it made me feel good, but, you know, it was probably the
oddest thing about it all to me, regardless of this, and that, that they didn't, you know, I'm sure you've heard, there was a bill, and that legislators took the money for a bill, that's about what you've heard.MOYEN: Right.
THOMAS: Did you know there never was a bill? I'm serious. Go look it
up. In 1992, uh, a record, uh, I don't know who made the bill up, but it's certain--let's put it this way: it's kinda odd that, you know, there never was a bill.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: It, they called it Greed to Breed(??). And when it came out,
00:29:00uh, I heard it that soon as it happened. I was upstairs and they called me. Said, one of my friends(??), said, "Samuel, you better be thankful(??)." And you got that right. I was happy to--MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And I said, "What was it?" And they said, "Well, it was
something about accusing of taking money for the greed-to-breed bill." I said, "What's a greed-to-breed bill?" I never had heard of it.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Here, I'm a lobbyist for them(??).
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: For the racetracks. And so, I won't go into that, but let's put
this way; it was a little bit more behind the -----------(??).MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: ----------(??)--(laughs).
MOYEN: Yeah.
THOMAS: And I still don't know why somebody hasn't said something about
me(??) being ----------(??).MOYEN: Um-hm. So, let's get back to, um--
THOMAS: --you've got all that ----------(??)--
MOYEN: --um-hm--(laughs)--
THOMAS: -- ----------(??)--
MOYEN: --when you, when you were at Kentucky Dam Village, did you
get your committee assignment, is that when you got your committee assignments?THOMAS: Yeah, generally, I think what was happening, I guess, the
chairmens met all of us, and the ones that had the influence to pick 00:30:00their committees, I think, that's what they did, who they wanted, because the odd thing about me, I, I not only was picked to be on that particular committee, they sat me by the chairman.MOYEN: Okay.
THOMAS: And I always thought that was kinda odd(??).
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: I don't believe it was an accident. (Moyen laughs)
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Let's put it that way. He told me at the time, he said, "You
know, someday, you know, if you keep winning, you'll be chairman of this thing(??)." So, I, I, I'm convinced that it wasn't an accident, sitting me right behind ----------(??). You know.MOYEN: When did you become chair of that?
THOMAS: Well, I think about 1980.
MOYEN: Okay, okay.
THOMAS: Uh, the reason I wasn't the chairman, I think, for one reason
in the earlier, maybe, for many reasons maybe, some better qualified, but I was a Wendell Ford. And, uh, at that time, there was the Wendell Ford and the Julian Carroll's camps. Some of us(??) didn't get along too well. So, I've always thought those of us that were Wendell Ford'ers would, we were, you had to wait a little while--MOYEN: --wait a little while(??)--(both laugh)--um-hm, um-hm.
00:31:00THOMAS: But that's the way the system was, I, I liked it, I have nothing
against the system(??).MOYEN: Um-hm, um-hm. Now--
THOMAS: --and I wasn't real experienced either.
MOYEN: Right.
THOMAS: So, maybe it just as ----------(??).
MOYEN: Now, when you first got here to Frankfort, you said you'd taken
some students up here before. But when you're, you first get here as a representative, what was what you'd thought it be liked, and what was a complete shock to you?THOMAS: Well, I, I found out that people's background or education,
probably what did shock me the most is that regardless of the person's background and education, it had nothing to do with being a good legislator. Uh, one of the better legislators I ever knew was a bus driver. So, I think that shocked me, I, I didn't know what to expect. 00:32:00And, uh, uh, all of us, we were --------(??), now, we didn't have any, we didn't have any offices. The only thing we had, uh, was that we parked over there at the end of Capitol, we went through the tunnel, and we went upstairs to the General, you know, the General Assembly. We had no offices, no place to hang your coat. And that's all we had, no phone, you know.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: It did have four or five phones out in the hall. But with that,
when we went there and that was it.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: I mean, we didn't have all this, you know, entourage(??), we
didn't have any aides, or, or anything.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And I like that, probably, well, I, but we were all together, we
got to know each other, each other's name, everything about each other. And so, now, you tell me, I mean, I have a legislator, I bring up a name, and they say, "Who's he?" I said, "Well, he sits over there." They don't even know them. Where we, we just thrown together--MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --you know, all the time.
00:33:00MOYEN: Um-hm. (laughs) And in some respects, do you think that was a, a
positive thing? I mean, it'd be nice to have a phones, or whatever, but it doesn't help--THOMAS: --I really think from, from understanding different people's
viewpoints and where they lived, like the mountain people that I knew very little about it, and their needs, and all, I learned about those people, about what they needed, or west Kentucky, or even, uh, you know, Louisville. And I don't know how you would, I think it was positive as far as I understand.MOYEN: Right, um-hm.
THOMAS: Uh, and then, if you have a bill of your own, you could, you
could talk to ten people about in five minutes.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: They all were there. Now, if, you know, you got to go through
a ----------(??), come all the way back, and I don't know how they pass their own bill, the factions are so hard(??) now. And, uh, we just, I think, knew each other, and then we generally, a lot of us, most people stayed around the Holiday Inn up there. But we just, we just got together. So, you made strong friends the rest of your life.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: You know, you got to know people's families, their kids,
00:34:00everything, you know.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Where now it seems, maybe not, a little colder maybe--
MOYEN: --right--
THOMAS: --they just don't know each other the way they used to(??).
MOYEN: Um-hm. Um-hm. Can you tell me what interaction you had with
Wendell Ford? You said that you were a Wendell Ford man. That you supported Wendell--THOMAS: --well, it goes way back. Uh, when I, uh, the year I graduate,
I believe, this might be true, he was, I think, the same year I graduated from college, I had, uh, I had a first cousin that belonged to the Jaycees, and it was actually before I was a Jaycee. Because I joined right after that. But I think, the best I remember, I went home, and he was going to Atlanta to help Wendell Ford be elected national Jaycee president. And, uh, so, uh, I actually went down there, and we went room to room to other states, and put on a big party, uh, uh, actually, uh, mint julep, and I can't stand one now. I think we made four thousand, or something like that, mint juleps. (Moyen laughs) And we had this reception for him. And, and he was elected national Jaycee president. So, I went back from then, and 00:35:00then actually probably next time I saw him, uh, probably in 1970, or something, when I ran--oh, no, I saw him, because he came down to our Jaycees. But, so I'd known all my, almost all my adult life.MOYEN: Um-hm. Um-hm.
THOMAS: Real close to him.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: But I remember telling him, I didn't think he could win, he
didn't have enough money. He told me, "You worry about you; I go ---- ------(??)"--(Moyen laughs)-- ----------(??). (both laughs) But so, we, I was elected the same day he was--MOYEN: --right--
THOMAS: --governor, you know.
MOYEN: Um-hm. Now, did that help you, were you able to say, "Governor,
I really, you know, I, there's not a whole lot of legislation that I want passed, but can you support, can you get people to support this?" Did that ever help you--THOMAS: --I don't think I did any, I, I'm, I sat in my seat and kept my
mouth shut, as far as legislation, for probably two terms.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: I don't even doubt if I introduced a bill. I may, if you look,
I may have cosponsored something, not my own, no.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And, uh, uh, the best thing I did, I got on the highway, I
00:36:00was advised to get on the highway committee, so you get to know the commissioner, and then you could help him, and you could get some roads back home, which was probably the number one in most rural areas.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: So, what Wendell mostly did for me, he helped me get roads.
MOYEN: Okay. Um-hm.
THOMAS: I mean, I, that, the rest of the time, uh, I don't remember
going in, saying, "This is my bill." I remember him calling me down there, raking me over the coals for voting against one of his(??). (Moyen laughs)MOYEN: Do, do you remember that? Could you tell that story?
THOMAS: Well, you know, he, it was over, uh, it was a bill where you
got, each candidate got so much money pertaining to how many tons of coal went through. It was kind of a deal like that.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: But it still, maybe still around. And seemed like to me they
needed fifty-one votes, and they started in the mountains, and the 00:37:00time they got to Marion County, they already had their fifty-one. So-- (laughs)--my county wasn't in it. It didn't suit me too well. (laughs) So, I voted against it. His, uh, chief of staff, Fleming, which was a good guy, he's the one that really kinda got on me, you know. I better not say what he said. Fleming's the one did most of it. (both laugh) But that's about the only one.MOYEN: Um-hm. Um-hm. Now, when Ford left--
THOMAS: --but he--
MOYEN: --oh, go ahead--
THOMAS: --but he helped me get roads.
MOYEN: Um-hm, um-hm. When Ford left office and Julian Carroll stepped
in, and then would later be elected in his own right, did you say that that, that the Carroll and Ford camps were--THOMAS: --well, we kinda, it may've not been them, but we kinda thought,
you know, that it might've been too animosity between, you know, it's, uh. For no other reason, eventually(??), and he should have, Carroll took care of the people that had been on his political side all his life. So, I think that's the way politics ought to be. And, you know, 00:38:00probably ----------(??) with me. Maybe, if I could have experienced, and then have Wendell Ford elected--MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --I'd been down in his office more times probably.
MOYEN: Right. (Moyen laughs)
THOMAS: But, uh, you know, it worked well, and then I got to be
chairman, uh, you know, anyway, so.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And you should spend some time before you need to be.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Especially in that committee where it's so complicated.
MOYEN: Um-hm. Um-hm. Um, can you describe Julian Carroll's leadership
style? How, as, as governor?THOMAS: Well, I thought he was a good leader. For one of the reasons,
he was a good speaker. You know, he, he had been in the system for so long. He paid his dues, and went through the system, and, uh, he, he was a leader. He looked like a leader.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And, uh, I think he did well.
MOYEN: Um-hm. Now, um--
00:39:00THOMAS: --but he had a, uh, he had a chief of staff named Cox, who did,
dealt with us most of the time.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: I mean, the, the legislators didn't, the leadership did, I'm
sure. But as far as just the peons, we, uh, we dealt with Cox most of the--MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --of the, some day somebody went to talk about him. And, uh,
that knows more about him. He was from west Kentucky. And he was the one that cracked the whip--MOYEN: --=, was, was--
THOMAS: --in the governor's office--
MOYEN: --would, would he have the one that said--
THOMAS: --he was a J.R.--
MOYEN: -- ----------(??)----------
THOMAS: --he was in J.R. Miller for, there was a J.R. Miller that did
the same thing for Wendell Ford.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: I mean, you know.
MOYEN: Kept, kept the troops in line, so to speak.
THOMAS: Yeah, you know, it, you voted bad too long, and you got less
blacktop, I always figure(??).MOYEN: Um-hm. (laughs)
THOMAS: Which is nothing wrong with that, because, you know, it's like
voting for the gas tax. I guess, it's not good for the people, but if your legislator votes against the gas tax, I'm sure he deserves in a lot of ways, which is what others get, but if you're a legislator, doesn't 00:40:00have the, uh, guts to vote for it, I don't know why you should get--MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --as much as the guy that does, because the guy that does, a lot
of times he needs more to cover up his vote, if nothing else. Although when I voted for it, I never had to worry about it. I voted for it. And John Y., I never remember one person that mentioned it to me.MOYEN: Really?
THOMAS: Not one.
MOYEN: Hm.
THOMAS: And, uh, of course, I, I didn't say very much, and I just told
people, "Look," I said, "if the bill comes, it's gonna pass. They're not gonna bring that bill up and then get beat. They've got the fifty- one votes."MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: "Since they got the fifty-one votes, either, uh, you're gonna
pay for the tax. And either you pay for it with nothing, or I vote for it, and I'll get my share."MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And, uh, they understood that. I mean, I didn't--
MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --I just laid it right on the line. I said, "You know, you're
gonna pay the same amount ----------(??). But you, you're gonna get your frontend knocked out of line, you know."MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --"And you're gonna lose both ways."
MOYEN: Um-hm.
00:41:00THOMAS: So, that's the kind of way I explained it when I had all those--
MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --although I didn't, wasn't much about writing articles in the
paper, or radio, nothing much like that.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: But, uh, I did the right thing, and I, I think now with the
price of, uh, blacktop and road building going up, and cars getting much better mileage, except SUVs, but overall, they're getting much better mileage. At the time, they're gonna have another crisis ------- ---(??).MOYEN: Um-hm. Um-hm.
[Pause in recording.]
MOYEN: All right, so we were talking about the fact that you were able
to vote for, for things like that the gas tax, and, and not get too much trouble from the constituency, so to speak. Um, you mentioned that Thelma Stovall was from your area.THOMAS: Uh, Hart County, really--
MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --which I was a stranger at the time, but yes--
MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --but she was from that area.
MOYEN: So, she was lieutenant governor, um--
THOMAS: --under Julian--
00:42:00MOYEN: --under Carroll.
THOMAS: Yeah.
MOYEN: Under Carroll. Um, when she decided to run for governor, did you
support her? Do you recall?THOMAS: I can't recall. Who ran, do you know?
MOYEN: Well, I know John Y. Brown ended up coming on strong and, and
winning the election, and I'm not sure what other Democrats.THOMAS: I probably did. Because I remember, uh, after John Y. got
elected, uh, and I think it was probably the best thing I ever did, cause he certainly proved me well(??), he, after that, I was in his office, for whatever reason, he asked me, did I vote him, and I told him no. So, I didn't vote for John Y. And I, and now as I look back, he made a great governor. And he said, "Well, you're the only one who probably told me the truth." (both laugh) After that, I mean, I really did well with him, and, uh, with Frank Metz after that.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: I always thought cause I was straight up with him.
MOYEN: Um-hm. That that helped.
THOMAS: That it helped. But I can't remember who did I vote for.
MOYEN: Okay. Now, can you tell me a little bit about the, do you recall
00:43:00much about the special session that Thelma Stovall called when--THOMAS: --when she had, uh, what do you call, the, uh, women's--what is
it? Uh.MOYEN: Okay.
THOMAS: ----------(??) Well, uh, Thelma called the special session; the
best I remember is the time really for the Equal Rights Amendment. She just for it. And, uh, you know, a strong advocate of women rights, and the labor movement, whatnot. And, uh, I think, the best I remember, it passed, it never did pass the, it takes, uh, you know, a certain, so many states--MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --for it to pass. I believe it got up to something like thirty-
some, or something, not nearly that close.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: But it never did go.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: But the thing I remember about it most that, uh, for some
reason, I don't even have ----------(??), it was in the news all the time, and nobody ever said anything to me about it. I remember one reporter, a little, you know, small paper asked me about it; and I 00:44:00don't remember what I said. But anyway, uh, in the meantime, it wasn't for that that the Sisters of Loretta, it's where the motherhouse of the Sisters of Loretta is, the retired--MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --sisters. And, uh, and either they called me down there,
I guess, probably may have been for that. And I remember I was kinda scared to go down there. They're so smart, you know. So well educated. And they had taught me.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And I was in the ---------(??) cafeteria. Uh, some of them
were in wheelchairs. And I thought, Well, some of them I probably put there. You know. (both laugh) I was going through my mind. But the other thing you worried about is you, you know, supposed you were to say, "ain't(??)," uh, you know, they, they would absolutely have a heartache. And so, I didn't think I would, but I wasn't sure. And I remember at the time, I said, "Well, you know, if I use poor English, I want you to know that you taught me English"--MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --so I kinda covered that up. And before I ever, anything ever
00:45:00happened, I don't what I was gonna talk about, this little nun in a wheelchair raised her arm, and said, uh, "Coach Thomas, if you're not for ERA, just shut that door and go home." (Moyen laughs) And I almost died. I thought they'd bring up abortion or something. And, uh, and so, I said, I said right there, I, I remember what I said, I'm pretty plain spoken, I, I said, "Well, sister, you're not gonna frame in hell, I'll vote for it." I said, ----------(??)---------- --(both laugh).MOYEN: That's a good story.
THOMAS: But--
MOYEN: --so--
THOMAS: --but I told them(??) over at the House, I said, "What would you
have done?" (both laugh)MOYEN: Um-hm. So--
THOMAS: --so they were smarter than I was, I thought. I knew they were.
MOYEN: So, you'd been serving since '72, and when John Y. Brown comes
into office in 1980, um, was there anything in particular during those, the 1970s that you were able to say, "I, I went up here to do a good 00:46:00job. Nothing in particular that I was gonna fight for. But here's what I saw and what I was able to write or pass, legislation that passed"--THOMAS: --I think most of the things that tried to, some things in
education that my probably contribution was always in the racing(??). Because I, we, uh, Kentucky racing was looked at as, uh, a, you know, the capitol, you know, the, of the racing world.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Whatever we did went to other states and we didn't ----------
(??) didn't. And when we went to conventions, and, uh, we, I generally went to one, it was in Tucson, uh, that's where we learned a lot about racing, and I testified a lot out there about some of the things we were trying to do in, uh, which would, even simple things you wouldn't think about, like, say for the rails for the jockeys or--MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --fees for the jockeys, and, and the racing dates. And, uh,
00:47:00uh, and tracks were rundown, especially the two, uh, the one in west Kentucky and Turfway, they were in terrible shape. You wouldn't take a mule across them. I mean, you couldn't even walk across it.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And so, we, and I would like to think I did my part, we had what
you called the backside improvement) fund. We cut the take(??) out the state(??) was getting, and put it in this fund, -----------(??) it's nice, so -----------(??)----------- --UNKNOWN: --hold on(??), I'm coming--
THOMAS: --uh, a lot of that money went into that.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And with those things--
UNKNOWN: --never mind--
THOMAS: --and then later on with simulcasting and the off-track betting,
all these things that, uh, I don't think Kentucky racing would have, which those two tracks wouldn't have survived.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And it, unfortunately now that we did every-, we also tried to
save the harness racing, you know. We did things, like, uh, we had the health and welfare fund where certain, where a little small percent comes out for, like, the jockey got killed or for his family. 00:48:00MOYEN: Right. Um-hm.
THOMAS: And then, uh, we also had them cash(??) tickets. I remember
John Y.(??), I did that, we had, uh, some of that money went into different things for thoroughbreds.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And, but then I did it for the harness racing, and I took the
money, and put into sub-, the amount that county fairs, where we had -------- mile(??) in town.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: So, the harness racing, even today, they're, uh, it's a training
ground, and that's how they pay the, uh, the purses for harness.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And so he asked me where I found the money, I said, "That's all
right, it wasn't yours." It was them cash(??) tickets. And, uh, so that's still in existence.MOYEN: Okay.
THOMAS: Though they do it a little bit different now. But basically, I
think, most of mine was into racing(??), although, uh, I will say this, that committee also, uh, I'm convinced, uh, Lexington and Louisville and them, we wouldn't have any convention business, and maybe not even in, say, -----------(??), if you hadn't done something about the, being 00:49:00able to buy a cocktail on Sunday.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And this thing, you know. Of course, the, a lot, that
particular law, Lexington was left out of it; they didn't want it at the time. But they voted it in themselves later on, on, on a ballot. But the rest of the, the, the larger areas got it.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: But I would say it was in that, and then in, uh, education.
And, of course, I would like to think I was real close to the chairman of the health and welfare, which was into, I, uh, I had taught special ed students in, especially, in P.E. So, I was closer to that. I didn't even, that was thing that I liked to do.MOYEN: Right, um-hm.
THOMAS: Still do ----------(??).
MOYEN: Um-hm, um-hm. Now, I'm not real familiar with the horseracing
industry. I mean, I can go to Keeneland and--THOMAS: --yeah--
MOYEN: --put a bet down, or whatever, but what are the different
factions that are involved there? Who, where are the tensions or the opposing groups?THOMAS: Well--
MOYEN: --what do you have to balance?
THOMAS: Of course, you've got the, the percent of the purses, you know.
00:50:00MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And, uh, you got the takeout purse that -----------(??), they
take out anywhere from 17 to 21 percent off the--MOYEN: --okay--
THOMAS: --top. So, we go, I believe, it's a better deal than most
games. I mean, you mean get 80 percent back, I mean, you know, so it's not, you know. But that's a ---------(??), and then you do that. And the other thing that you deal with a whole lot with the racing(??) dates, you know.MOYEN: Okay.
THOMAS: And, uh, there, the factions are basically, uh, between the
thoroughbred owners, and then the track owners, and then actually with jockeys and trainers, and them.MOYEN: Okay.
THOMAS: And it's got to balance out.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Everybody's got to make(??), but when we passed the law, which
we lowered the tracks on Turfway, uh, heck, fire, their purses were only three or four thousand dollars a race. And now it's up eight, ten. That's not a, I'm not sure what it is now, but they're about, and 00:51:00I wouldn't be surprised if it, five years from now, something would've happened, they wouldn't be there. They wouldn't last in Kentucky, because the slot machines in West Virginia, you can race the same horse, the same class horse for at least 50 percent more.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: So, I'm not talking about the big stake race. That's something
people think about, they, most people in racing don't have money like you think.MOYEN: Right.
THOMAS: And so, if something isn't done where they can compete, then
we're not gonna, we're not gonna get the horses. If you don't have over five horses, four or five horses in the field, nobody's gonna bet on them.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: It's a funny thing(??), I don't, I understand the laws pretty
well, but as far as betting, I don't, I can't hardly read a form, you know. (Moyen laughs) I liked to go down to the farm and look at them, but somebody said, "Well, maybe that's why you made a pretty good chairman." I, I don't have any sides, you know.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And, uh, except when I was a kid, we did have some harness
horses.MOYEN: Okay. Um-hm.
THOMAS: But, uh, it's big, big thing. And that committee did wonders
00:52:00for it.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Uh, took steps that, I think, many committees wouldn't have the
courage to do--MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --where racing is today.
MOYEN: Um-hm. Let me ask you about the, the big shift that people
talk about in 1980 when John Y. Brown is elected, is legislative independence. Um, as someone who served before and after, um, 1980, did you feel like that there was a big transition, that there was a great deal of independence that you all had gained?THOMAS: I would say yes. Uh, in my case, which, uh, we had more
independence. But, uh, before that, it's not true that the governor controlled every bill. Now, I don't mind telling you(??), it sounded(??) ugly, but I've called idiots -----------(??) that they had positions on certain bills. And, but it wasn't every bill.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And at that time, I'm convinced it was the best way, because
I can remember we didn't have any, we had no internet, we had no 00:53:00computers, we had no way of, we had no desks. (laughs)MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: I mean, it, somebody had to say something about what was in them.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: You know, pick up a bill, and, uh, one time somebody asked me-
-later on I learned to do it--but, you know, thirty, forty pages, and you're talking about voting on it in two minutes, and--MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --no way(??). So, I'm convinced under that system, it worked
just as well.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Used to tell a seatmate of mine, used to say, "You not, you know
what's in every bill." I said, "That's real simple. I pick it up. It smells like monk cheese(??), I vote no." (Moyen laughs) He was from Harlan(??), he said, "Sam, what's monk(??) cheese?" (both laugh)But anyway, I think that that system then when they changed, it wasn't as
dramatic to me, I don't think, as it would've been, because, uh, up to then, I needed some, you know, some guidance, and then, uh, basically, the power kinda just went from the governor's office to the leadership.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Instead of, it was pretty much a -----------(??)--
00:54:00MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --and by that time I was kinda in leadership a little bit. So,
it didn't change me so much--MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --now if I hadn't been in leadership, you know, I think I
would've assumed -----------(??).MOYEN: Um-hm. Right.
THOMAS: I think it can go too far in either direction.
MOYEN: Um-hm. Where do you think we are now? Do you think we've got too
much legislative independence, or what, or, or do you think there's a pretty good balance right now?THOMAS: I, of course, I really don't have an opinion yet, because it's
like now the way the new governor has gotten new people(??)--MOYEN: --have to wait and see(??)--
THOMAS: --I think they deserve a chance, and I, I just don't right now.
MOYEN: Right.
THOMAS: Uh, that, uh, they work hard. I think the worst thing that
happened to legislators was email, you know. That's some, you probably wouldn't hear from thirty people, you know. And now, they get so much email that, but that never did affect me.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: I used to think, some guy would say, "Well, I got thirty calls."
I said, "Well, how about the other thirty-five thousand, you know?" 00:55:00(Moyen laughs) That's my attitude. But I always thought, if I had the most information about what was in there, sometimes you don't. But a bill that I really had--MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --the information on, that, since I had the information, that I
could pretty well explain what I did. And if people back home didn't have the information--MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --uh, when he finally gets it, I've had people say, "Well, I'm
glad you did that, because I didn't know that."MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And, uh, uh, I can give, probably an example in my, uh, it's
about the death penalty. Once, on the, as far as severe rate(??), it doesn't sound like, you know, you ought to vote for it. ----------- (??) said, uh, uh, I ran into a guy, I remember, he looked me up, it was the chief of police in, uh, Chicago. And he was down there testifying. And he said, "I bet something you've never thought about it. You have a death penalty for rape." I said, "What's that?" And, uh, he said, "You realize everybody's raped, they gonna kill them. Well, you get 00:56:00eight years for that. I mean, for, you know, killing somebody, the rape, you gonna rape them, and electrocute them." But it made so much sense to me, I said, "Man, I never, -----------(??)."MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: He said, "All you gonna do is turn, uh, people, rapists(??) to
murder." And so, I voted against it. And went home, after he told me, they said, "You know, I never thought of that." I said, "Well, I didn't either." And he was so right. It's gonna make a bad situation worse.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: But it looked good politically.
MOYEN: Right, um-hm. Um, by this time, like you mentioned, you had
become a, a pretty powerful representative. And were winning your elections back home. And so, you kinda understood what was going on. What would you say the average voter back home in your district was most interested in? I mean, were they most interested in, in the laws you were passing, or were, or, or what were they most--THOMAS: --now--
MOYEN: --concerned about?
THOMAS: I don't know how powerful I was. But somewhat, I guess. Uh,
00:57:00but most of mine, they kinda thought we had a dog and pony show.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: You asked about it(??), cause I, my hometown is well educated.
They have more interested, I'd say, in what I could bring home--MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --than, uh, than the others. I mean, some things they were but--
MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --that wasn't the driving force in electing me, I don't think.
I mean, you know, if you need a health department, uh, little things happened, a bridge falls in, or something happens to your water, or, you know, to have contacts to--MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --to help, uh, whatever may happened, you know. I think that
was a lot more important than, than, than the laws were.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And still do.
MOYEN: Okay. Um-hm, um-hm. Um, what did you think about John Y. Brown
as governor, did you, would you, did you think he was a good governor?THOMAS: Yes, it's no doubt he was a good governor. And let me,
the reason he was, he, not only was you talking about legislative 00:58:00independence, I think what he did, he, I guess you'd say, decentralized his own office. He had, he had so many smart, qualified friends, like, you know, I mean, Sturgill and Metz and some more.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And so, he brought them over here and put them head of these
things. And so, when you went down, you didn't even go there, he told you to go talk to them; that's their expertise. But he had those brilliant people--MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --running for a dollar a year, running these, uh, you know,
different areas.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And I think that was his strength. It's like, uh, coaching; the
better your players, the better the job(??).MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And so, in his case, he had so many daggone smart people around
me, plus his own leadership ability, it had to work.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: In fact, I've never known anybody who could bring people up
here(??) like he did.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: I mean(??), I named three of them, but I'm sure there are some
more.MOYEN: Right, um-hm. Now, um, at the end of his tenure as governor,
Martha Layne Collins, um, decides to run, and she ends up winning. 00:59:00Did, do you recall if you supported her, and if so, was that anything based on education? She was an education--THOMAS: --I'm sure that--
MOYEN: --wanted to--
THOMAS: --influenced me--
MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --I'm sure it did. And that, and, and she was a, among another
thing, she was kind of a Wendell Ford -----------(??)--MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --and I'd say between the two, and the, and the education.
I, uh, I've tried to work education, I mean, one of the things that I think they've changed, they changed, I may have done, I never did believe it when teachers, when they get up and said, you know, teachers get a thousand dollar a year raise. I just say, that, a lot of times that wasn't the way it was. By the time it gotten back home, it'd fallen off the truck, because the thousand dollars that you had, we'll say, twenty-five teachers and counting administrators, and they gave you twenty-five more thousand, but the administrators got a whole lot more than the teachers. And then, you know, I got up and explained to them, I said, "When you get home, uh, that teacher, 3 percent"--well, 01:00:00it was on percent, really.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: It, "You know, he's gonna get a 3 percent raise," but and then
the, they said, "Well, that's gonna be a thousand dollars." You're gonna find out some of them are only gonna get five hundred dollars. And you better not be -----------(??).MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: So, I, for a long time there, we, we put it on dollars.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Rather than, uh, along percent. Now, and that's still ain't,
that's the way it ought to be. We, we have to bottom(??)up.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: But the other way was, you know, you get home, they were mean to
you, because you -----------(??)--MOYEN: --um-him--
THOMAS: --making ten thousand dollars, they weren't making it (??). But
I, they changed it a lot later, but I still think it should be--MOYEN: --um-him--
THOMAS: --because it's just, uh, you know, they read in the paper, they,
that's the way that they're thinking. But it did send that money ----- ------ (??) --MOYEN: --um-him--
THOMAS: --dollars.
MOYEN: Um-hm. -----------(??) --
THOMAS: --but I wasn't an administrator.
MOYEN: -- (laughs). Do you--
THOMAS: --I could've been I'm sure.
MOYEN: Yeah. Who would want to be?
THOMAS: Yeah. I didn't want to be.
MOYEN: Um, do you recall anything about the 1985 special session, which,
I believe, dealt primarily with education, and, and education reform, 01:01:00and Martha Layne Collins's attempts to, um, help reform the system? Do, do you have any recollection--THOMAS: --not that I really--
MOYEN: --of that--
THOMAS: --I know I was always pretty much, at one time, uh, I was
pro-education. At one time, now they have people in each area, called -----------(??), KEA does.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: When that system first started, it, it took regular teachers and
we did it kinda part-time.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: I did that for the E-town area. So, I was always pretty
involved with the, uh, mechanism of KEA.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Now they have them everywhere.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: But, so I had done to that. And, you know, on the side, and
kinda--MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --but I was pretty pro-education because it's, it's the only
salvation, you know, that.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And, uh, uh, House Bill 44 was, was good and bad. And that was
where, you know, you put a limit on taxes, and, uh. And some day I 01:02:00looked for, Kentucky pays a higher percent for edu-, in education, the state of Kentucky does than, than, I think, any state. I don't mean in dollars; I mean in percent. Except Hawaii. And I think the day will come when the legislators get so much heat that they'll start passing back down to local(??), like, Ohio and Indiana.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: See, if you're in Alabama, you, if you knew anybody, houses
probably, especially Penn-, I mean, Ohio and Indiana, taxes on their houses will be three times what it is here.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: But ours in something else.
MOYEN: Right.
THOMAS: But I think the day will come some, when the legislature will
pass some of that responsibility down. The question is, do we have the, will people vote for it back home, or will they let the schools -----------(??) and ruin them(??)?MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: I don't know.
MOYEN: Right.
THOMAS: I know that.
MOYEN: Um-hm. In, in 1984, um, you sponsored what was House Bill 750,
01:03:00uh, which was to help counties maintain local roads. Um, that they, that counties would get more money from the country road and the municipal road aid fund.THOMAS: Turn it off.
[Pause in recording.]
MOYEN: Well, I, I guess I was ask you, do you recall what, what that
bill was? And, and two, it--THOMAS: --the reason for the bill--
MOYEN: --the reason for the bill, and it sounded interesting to me that,
that the counties were needing to try and get more money from a fund that was set up to give counties money, in, in the first place.THOMAS: Now, what year was this?
MOYEN: This was 1984.
THOMAS: Actually, I don't think the tax, when did the tax pass, '84? Do
you know?MOYEN: Um-hm. I think so.
THOMAS: That's what you're. Well, what reason I thought that is because
I'm convinced any rural legislator, the better job he does with roads, the more he can do for more people, or for all people. 01:04:00MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And, uh, at that time, I learned something about the formula(??).
UNKNOWN: Bye.
THOMAS: And I don't think, just maybe by accident, I did, whatever the
reason, I had no idea how it works, and the way it works, it's very complicated. And I'm not sure what it is now, probably the same. That, the road fund money is based on the type of road and the miles of each type of roads that you have in your county. And it's not, and, and in, in town, it's based on some on population.MOYEN: Okay.
THOMAS: Uh, but basically it's based, like, say like, a two-numbered
road gets more than a three-numbered road--MOYEN: --okay--
THOMAS: --and a four-numbered road gets less, you know.
MOYEN: Okay, right.
THOMAS: If you, that's the best way--
MOYEN: --right, um-hm--
THOMAS: --I think I could describe it to you. Now, the, you know, the
U.S. is different. That's a different thing(??).MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: But, uh, that, there's more people moving out of small towns and
into suburbs that, uh, seemed to me like, you could have two, three, 01:05:00four in town, a hundred houses out on one little road that wasn't getting any more money than it was when it was, you know, a big path.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Because the formula they was based on, that is the rural
secondary road.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And so, at the time, I thought, and I'm sure they've changed it
some, because it wasn't fair, as you got into it more--MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --to make it, you know, more equal.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Because probably outside of towns was more people now than it
is, into towns--MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --in a lot of places, anyway.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Right now. So, their road would be more, uh, more now, and, uh,
although they weren't getting enough money that they need(??).MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: So, that, that particular magistrate, he has it pretty rough.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Most of them(??).
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Well, another thing, I never introduced a million(??) bills. I,
I was for a lot of bills, but I give a lot of time somebody else's name on them.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Because first place, they like to do it. They worked it. And I
01:06:00always could do better behind the scenes--MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --than getting my own name on it(??).
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: But I just didn't have time to do everything.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: It's a big job.
MOYEN: Right. Now you, you were, I believe, a cosponsor for the bill
that we've mentioned a couple times to get, uh, a lessening, some of the liquor laws on Sunday. There was quite a, quite a fight over that, with that -----------(??), right. Didn't Jack Trevey--THOMAS: --how do you know this--(laughs).
MOYEN: Support it--(Thomas laughs)--and amended it(??).
THOMAS: Okay.
MOYEN: Can you tell me a little bit about that?
THOMAS: I don't know how you knew it.
MOYEN: (laughs) Well, what happened, Trevey wanted, what ended up
happening. And, uh, so he knew since I was the chairman, I had the bill that, you know, he could hook his bill to mine. Well, originally what happened that when we first passed it, and I think this was, I know it's true, is that we, you never do get over forty-five votes over here anything that involves(??) alcohol. (Moyen laughs) And, uh, it's 01:07:00true. And we had to leave Lexington out of it originally, because-- well, we were gonna leave them out of it is because we couldn't get the, we needed two legi-, a couple legislators' votes in Fayette County.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And, uh, Baesler was against it, all right. And so, in the end
Trevey puts, uh, an amendment on my bill, figuring well, the chairman's not gonna lose his bill. So I don't blame me, I said, but he told me about it. And, and, uh, I asked him, I said, the best I remember that, uh, Baesler didn't like it too well, and Trevey jerked the amendment, wasn't my(??) you know.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Uh, just(??) because of him, but, but in the meantime, Baesler
said he would have an election. And, uh, so I think I agreed to, I'd take the amendment off, or Trevey, or somebody did, that if he would 01:08:00promise us that he would have an election, and I never did understand is why he didn't let, let it be on my bill. Well, if there's any controversy, he could've blamed me.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: See(??).
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And, uh, but he didn't and he did have the election and it did
pass, just like I tried to do anyway.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: So, that's why that--
MOYEN: --okay--
THOMAS: --uh, that Lexington is left out of its(??)--
MOYEN: --right, okay, right.
THOMAS: We were counting votes and we couldn't get enough on the
original bill.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: So, we had to leave them out to, to get the two votes we need to
pass it.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And I think it passed by over--
MOYEN: --um-hm--.
THOMAS: You got, it takes some walks(??) to pass those bills.
MOYEN: Um-hm. In, in 1985, there was a big leadership change in the
House. That's when Don Blandford becomes speaker. Um, he, he ousts Bobby Richardson and, and Blandford, Pete Worthington, Greg Stumbo--THOMAS: --um-hm--
MOYEN: --come into leadership. Through all of that, you managed to keep
01:09:00the chairmanship of your committee. How was that?THOMAS: Well, I will have to say I was just lucky, you know, in a lot of
ways, because normally they don't, normally if you cross the speaker, you know, you, you pay the price and probably you should. And, uh, but for whatever reason, uh, uh, and certainly mine, I was for Blandford for, because, whatever many, many reasons. And he's just friends, and my friends here, and this, that, and other, and, uh, that was, and I was opened about it, and I think that helped me.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: I didn't, I didn't cover it up or lie about it. I just, but
Bobby and I also were pretty close because my district joins his district down there in, in Hart County.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And, just so, when it was all over, they, uh, they, "We're gonna
01:10:00do this, that, and the other," and, uh, it ended up, you know, that I was the chairman, which I appreciated because they could've done just the opposite.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Because Wendell(??), back in the, I think if Julian had been
there, I don't think I would've got it. (both laugh)MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: But there was more independence then.
MOYEN: Right.
THOMAS: And, uh, that's, you know, I guess.
MOYEN: Um-hm, um-hm.
THOMAS: Some of them lost theirs, so.
MOYEN: Right. Is that difficult as a legislator to when, you know, each
session when the leadership comes up, trying to figure out, one, do you like this legislator--THOMAS: --it's terrible--
MOYEN: --politically but then, trying to figure out who's gonna win, so
that you can--THOMAS: --that's right--
MOYEN: --maintain--
THOMAS: --oh, it's the worst vote you make in your life, trying to pick
between them.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Then they jockey a lot, you know, "If you vote me, you'll be
chairman, you'll be on A & R, you'll be on education." Although I never did play those games.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And, uh, uh, you just got to realize that if you guess wrong,
01:11:00you lose, that's, you know, you did it.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: No use crying about it. And, uh, but it's very difficult to do.
But those things are really jockeying hard about committee assignments.MOYEN: Um-hm, um-hm.
THOMAS: And it's a hard vote.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Because most of them that run, they, they're qualified, you know.
MOYEN: Right, right. Um--
THOMAS: --I don't know, I, in fact, Bobby tried to get me to run for
leadership. Even then, before it, even though when, you know, and no, he didn't try to get me to run, he talked me out of it. I thought about it, you know, he said, "Well, yeah, you could probably get something but," said, "heck, where you are, you're more powerful than anybody here anyway." That committee is powerful.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And, you know, he said, "Well, if you want the headaches for
when you already got it."MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: He's the one that convinced me not to run--
MOYEN: --okay--
THOMAS: --you know, for leadership.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: I wasn't, didn't want it enough(??). You know, now, as I look
back, I think he was right.MOYEN: Um-hm. In, in 1986, in that legislative session, Toyota was
01:12:00passed. Did, did you vote for or against it?THOMAS: I'm sure I did(??).
MOYEN: Okay. Um, what were your thoughts on that, I mean?
THOMAS: Well, it was such a small amount of money when you look at not,
you know, if you think about it now, it's almost a joke that anybody was against it. I, I don't remember how much it was, it wasn't very much. But, uh, I lived in the county that we needed industry.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: You know, and this is just the ----------(??) together. In
fact, you'd be surprised how many people from my home county even works there today. And I'm, I'm just, I think it was pro-business myself.MOYEN: Right, um-hm.
THOMAS: Uh, you know, you see those demagogues -----------(??).
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And there are some, some too that(??) in many ways, you got to
take care of the ones you already have, too. I understand that. But I don't think I even thought about it, you know.MOYEN: Um-hm. Um-hm.
THOMAS: I didn't have, I think I was very lucky. I didn't seem to have
much, whatever I did, good or bad, I didn't, at home, I never did much. 01:13:00Never thought I was too hard at it, or whatever it was, but I don't remember taking much heat for any, any one thing.MOYEN: Okay, okay. Now, in, in 1986 and during the beginning of that
session, you announced, or at least that's when I first saw your papers that you weren't gonna run--THOMAS: --um-hm--
MOYEN: --again for office. Why was that?
THOMAS: Well, just like I said, well, I told you earlier this, I was
tired of teaching, you know, I was getting up in sixty-some years old. And kids were, you know, I just don't think you should teach ------- ----(??), I had enough Irish in me, anyway, you lose your temper, this, that, and the other.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And I just thought it was time to get out teaching. But when I
got to looking into it, since, uh, that for me to draw my, uh, teacher's pay, I had to, because the way the -----------(??), it was set up at the time, I had to quit both of them to give any pension, or any decent pension at all. And I couldn't just make it being a legislator. 01:14:00MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: You know, taking that part of it. So, uh, that's what really--
MOYEN: --right--
THOMAS: --the main reason, and I think I'd run nine times, and then
sometimes you get, especially after, you know, you had to file during the session, you're overloaded, you know you're gonna run again, and it's too much. And maybe sometimes you may, uh, to, you know, make decisions that you shouldn't. And the other reason was I'd been a baseball coach and I, I thought I better take the pitcher out one, an inning too early than one too late. Although I'd run well to then, I think I got 70 percent of the vote or so--MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --that time I'd run before.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: -----------(??) If I could've probably rested a couple of years.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And then, it worked out, I did have the opportunity through June
Thornton(??), he asked me, after he found out, I was thinking about it, would I lobby for them. I didn't even, I didn't even know what to say. I said, "Yeah, I guess so, I don't know what I'm gonna do." So, 01:15:00because that's how I got, over at Georgetown, he called me over there. And he said, "Well, you know, would you work, if we buy Turfway, will you lobby for us?" I said, he said, "You know, you, anybody ought to know the law, it's you." I said, "Yeah." And so, that's how I ended up lobbying.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: I don't know what I would've done--
MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --you know, if I hadn't been -----------(??).
MOYEN: Um, can you explain to me what you do as a lobbyist? What does a
lobbyist attempt to do? What makes you a successful lobbyist? What type of things do legislators ask you for? What type, you know?THOMAS: Well, I think the main thing of any lobbyist is his word has
got to be completely, you cannot even think about not telling them the truth.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And what I try to do, if I have to, you know, do a bill, and I
not only try to tell him what's in the bill, I try to tell him why he might should be against it(??).MOYEN: Um-hm.
01:16:00THOMAS: You know, so, he's gonna find it probably anyway. And, and, uh,
it depends on where he's from.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: You know, if he's from certain area, you know, I just lay it
on the line to him. "You know, this might be hard for you because of this, but it would do this."MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: You know, and, uh, I try to be straight up front with them.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And I, I never really try not to lobby for anything that I
didn't understand the subject.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Because everything that I've lobbied has been the same subject
that went through that same committee, that's what I know. I, I've done very little of anything else that I didn't, maybe even wrote them, some of the laws -----------(??), or whatever it might've been. But I, I think you need the knowledge and you need trust. And that's the big thing. And, and I always, when I lobbied, even when I had bills up there, uh, I try not to even get a voting sheet. If I win, 01:17:00which I don't, I don't, really didn't tie(??) much, I don't think I really lost(??), I don't go get the sheet because I don't want to hold grudges. But I didn't do that when I was a legislator.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: I didn't even look up, because I didn't want to walk out, and
you voted against me, and I say something. So, I never looked back. I don't see -----------(??).MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: I think you just don't do that.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Because you need him tomorrow, you know.
MOYEN: Right, um-hm.
THOMAS: But, uh, I think basically, know the subject, work hard, and
don't, well, you might have to, but I, fortunately I didn't, because, uh, you know, I was retired basically. Don't take a client, something you don't believe in. I almost did it once. And they looked at, they said, "What are you talking? You can't do that. You wouldn't even voted for it." I just didn't want to hear -----------(??). So, I never did. I mean, there's more money in a lot of things. The first people that tried to hire me was the people's stuff I'd beaten.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: So, naturally, you know, that's where, what they should do.
MOYEN: Right.
THOMAS: But I just never did.
01:18:00MOYEN: Um-hm. Um-hm. Now, as a lobbyist, do you work, uh, throughout
the year, or a does a lobbyist just, just--THOMAS: --it depends on me. I don't do that much lobbying. I got a
daughter that does major lobbying. She does it pretty much all year. But what she tries to do is when they have the interim committee meetings, she comes to all of them, whatever it is.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: But, uh, basically, I, I'd say 90, 80 percent of the work you've
done in this three or four months.MOYEN: Okay.
THOMAS: But now if you're gonna lobby a bill to pass one(??), it's ten
times harder. There's two types of lobbyists; it's a whole lot easier to be a lobbyist that beats bills than it is to pass one. And most lobbyists are, are beat bills. Very few are hired to pass them.MOYEN: Hm, okay.
THOMAS: It's a complete different world.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: It's not even the same, uh, occupation. So, basically, mine had
been more to pass bills than it has to, to beat bills.MOYEN: Okay.
THOMAS: Of course, a lot of times when you're beating bills, you have
a lot of people helping you. Say, if it's doctors, or lawyers, you 01:19:00just called them up, and they'll do all the work. When you're passing a bill, it's nothing, most of the time, you don't have too many really for you.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Or they've already would had it done.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Although in racing, even racing doesn't have the people for it
that you would think.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Because they don't understand, they think everybody's rich.
Well, -----------(??) but you don't have, you don't have anybody in Marion County, Hart County, Larue County, or, you know, calling up here to the legislators.MOYEN: Right.
THOMAS: So, you have to work a lot harder.
MOYEN: Um-hm. Do you enjoy lobbying?
THOMAS: Oh, yeah, I like it, because I'm bored to death when I'm not
doing it. (Moyen laughs) And most of the times I lobbied what I believed in, you know.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And that makes it a whole lot easier.
MOYEN: Sure, sure.
THOMAS: And I don't do that much, pretty much(??) my daughter does most
of it.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: But it's, uh, hard work.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: But tell her, she, she, she reads the bill, you know. (Moyen
laughs) -----------(??) Says, "Anybody can pass a bill through." Says, 01:20:00"Read mine. -----------(??)-----------." (both laugh)[Pause in recording.]
MOYEN: So, tell me ab-, uh, a legislator, you're in the public
spotlight, so what's the most embarrassing thing that, that, that's happened to you?THOMAS: Well, the most embarrassing that happened to me, I introduced
a bill to change, uh, the judges in Hart, and Laure, and, uh, Nelson County. They, like we did at home(??), they had two judges for the three counties. And Nelson County was so large that, uh, they were electing both of them. So, Hart, I knew Hart and Larue wasn't get anything. (Moyen laughs) So, I, I kinda did what I shouldn't do, I guess, I didn't, the judiciary committee wouldn't do it. So, I took it from myself, and do it anyway. One reason the judiciary committee couldn't do it cause, uh, uh, one of the -----------(??) in the judicial committee was, uh, Senator, was from(??) Nelson County, which 01:21:00I knew. And so, I introduced a bill and things were going fine. Get out of committee, and to make a long story short, and, uh, uh, a very popular Kenny Rapier, although he was kinda a freshman then, this wouldn't have happened later, he had to be, or he was -----------(??) half against what I was doing, because he had Nelson County.MOYEN: Right.
THOMAS: And, uh, so anyway, he told me, said, "Well, I won't be too
hard on you," this, that and the other. But when the time came that I worked it pretty hard, and three or four freshman told me, "Well, if you need the vote, I'll do it. I'll vote for it." I said, "Well, just wait and watch and, and the tote board up there." So, help me, the bill comes up. And you won't believe what happened. Said not only wouldn't vote, but at least, I'm telling you, at least forty-five walked out of the room. I've never seen that. It didn't look like anybody 01:22:00was in, my seatmate wasn't there. And I'm saying, "Where you going? Where you going?" And finally I told Bobby, I said, "Speaker, will you clean up that restroom? There's nobody in here." (Moyen laughs) So, I couldn't(??) tell on them(??). You know, I'm just -----------(??) the bill, and they're leaving, and, you know. And so, he takes a vote, and, uh, and then, it went through my mind, oh, how many does it take, all right. Because all we need was forty or forty-one, but then you're excited(??) and you don't know. Well, I look up there, there's fifty votes, something like, forty-one to three, or thirty-nine to five. And so, I don't know exactly what I did, but I'm waiting to vote last, so you could know whoever they were could see that I needed another vote. I guess that's what happened. I either did that, or I put my hand down on the seat, and knocked my vote, I don't know which one. But anyway, when the thing stopped, it was thirty-nine to four. But 01:23:00I got beat because it takes forty votes. And, uh, I looked out, my seatmate, and all, I said, "Who in the you-know-what didn't vote?" He said, "You, you -----------(??) boy." And it was awfully embarrassing. And, uh, so, it made the papers and T.V., and the next time I ran, the guy wanted to know why would you vote for a legislator who wasn't smart enough to vote for his own bill. Anyway, I brought it up the next day. And Bobby looked down there, and he said, "Representative Mann(??), would you tell that rookie sitting by you sure the hell use that machine(??)." I mean, oh, it was awful. (Moyen laughs) You'd never imagine you heard the, the big chairman, you know.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Didn't vote for his own bill. And it's normally that happens
some, you know, but it's never one where it beats you.MOYEN: Right.
THOMAS: At least I didn't -----------(??) with this one. (Moyen laughs)
But you play at that machine, if you want votes, you know. 01:24:00MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: You can take that machine, like, if you've got to deal with
stuff, I go to your friends(??), or you could -----------(??) early, so people will think it's better than what it is. And then, you know, they look up there and if it's seventy-to-thirty, well, then they'll vote, and then they'll pull out. So, there's a lot of strategy in using that machine.MOYEN: Really.
THOMAS: Or if you, you know, you do it on both ends, really.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: So, you don't, that's why I didn't like the Senate, because you
couldn't play those little games.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: But I got, I got caught in all the smartness; I didn't use my
own machine. (Moyen laughs) And here it turned around, it was thirty- nine to, something to four.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And the rest of them was banished.
MOYEN: Huh.
THOMAS: Because they didn't want to vote against him, they didn't want
to vote against me. We were best of friends. You know, you gather all of that.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: But anyway, I got it brought up. And I tell you how you have
to do that: you got to get somebody that voted in the negative. Well, there wasn't but four. So, I had to--(Moyen laughs)--it was cutting it short. I had to get one of them to switch.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: So, that's the way it worked, to bring it up, bring it back up.
01:25:00MOYEN: Right. Were you able to do that?
THOMAS: Yeah.
MOYEN: Okay.
THOMAS: I passed it. Now, uh, Hart and Larue's got their judge and
Nelson's got theirs.MOYEN: Okay.
THOMAS: So, it worked well.
MOYEN: All right.
THOMAS: So, that was the most embarrassing thing--
MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --I ever -----------(??).
MOYEN: What would you say was your best memory of being in the
legislature? Or, if there wasn't one specifically, what was--THOMAS: --oh, I think the best memory of all is the great friends
you made when, uh, uh, realize that maybe in your own way you did contribute to the welfare of the state. Uh, but the friendships that you make, at least, the way we were so closed through the years, that, uh, there's nothing greater than that. -----------(??)-----------MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And, uh, and particularly how hard people worked at it. Most
people don't realize. It's hard to work. And, uh, demanding. Your campaigning is, is hard. You know, back when I was there, it didn't take, you didn't, there wasn't that much money involved. Now I could see now it'd be horrendous. Of course, now you got more, more lobbyists. So it's harder. But, but my best memory is all the friends 01:26:00I made. I can go to any county anywhere, I don't think, if they're still living, anyway. You know, call them up.MOYEN: Right.
THOMAS: I don't care what county it is, I know or did know somebody.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: I think that's the greatest--
MOYEN: --yeah--
THOMAS: --thing(??). I would like to think that, that it contributed
to, you know, to certain areas -----------(??).MOYEN: Um-hm. Can you tell me, by looking back, what you would say in
retrospect was your best vote, and, and--THOMAS: --best vote--
MOYEN: --and, and my, your best vote that, hey, this was a challenge,
and I wasn't sure, but looking back, it was the best, or if it could've been you knew from the get-go, this is what you, the right thing, and, and, and history has proven that correct.THOMAS: I rather, rather take the worst vote--
MOYEN: --okay--
THOMAS: --better -----------(??)----------- --
MOYEN: --talk about that--
THOMAS: --that.
MOYEN: Tell me about that.
THOMAS: Uh, and I don't know why, it, it was in, the death penalty vote.
And, uh, you asked me the best vote, I don't even remember ----------- 01:27:00(??). I remember the, the one that, that I still think about, you know. And evidently did wrong, or I wouldn't still think about it. We had the, uh, you know, the death penalty to deal with certain cases. And, uh, I really didn't know what to do, you know. Uh, in a way I was for it, and in a way I wasn't for it. Cause I'd seen too many people with no lawyers and get the death penalty and people that had lawyers not got the death penalty. Just something about it, I don't know. It could've been my background, or maybe, even maybe the nuns teaching.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: I'm not sure.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And for some reason, I don't remember ever in my life really
remember voting politically. But I just, I really just -----------(??) vote. But if that drove me for a split thirty seconds, I know, but(??) I voted for it.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And soon as I did it, it, it, probably the worst thing happened
to me, I laid my head over, I can't believe in me, I never did that. 01:28:00And my seatmate had his turned toward me, and he said, "I never thought you would do it." And I think I remember him saying that, ---- -------(??) although he did, but he was, was politically, uh, you know, back home harder on him. You know, I don't know which is worst, the vote or the young legislator said, "I never thought you'd do it." And I remember to this day.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: In my case, I did wrong, or I won't still remember it(??).
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: I mean, I remember it just like it was yesterday, you know.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: So, I don't know the solution to it. In my case, I don't think
I, I, if I did it politically, I did wrong. I can't, if I did, it's the only time I ever remember doing--I don't know, it's just one of those things, I didn't know what to do--MOYEN: --right--
THOMAS: --and oh, they're speaking, this one influenced you, that one,
and I'm sitting there, I, I bet I pulled it up and down over it(??).MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: I remember that. And, uh, uh, especially for teenagers, and
things like that(??).MOYEN: Um-hm.
01:29:00THOMAS: But I would say it's probably my background.
MOYEN: Um-hm. The, uh, the death penalty is a pretty controversial
issue. What, what other, what would you say were the other most controversial votes, uh, or most politically bitter votes, besides--THOMAS: --you know, I don't remember. I would say then, there was, uh,
you had the beginning of the abortion votes, you know.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Which before I got into politics so much, I would say they were
somewhat controversial. Not particularly what you thought, one way or the other, but probably the thing that bothered me about that is that I knew, and 90 percent of it, whatever we did here in that area was gonna get thrown out in court. And, uh, I was always suspicious of, of some of it was voted for and introduced, uh, for political reasons, because you spend time after time up here, and I introduced some of the 01:30:00-----------(??)-----------, and -----------(??), you know, they threw them all out of court. So, and they go to court, state spends two or three hundred thousand (??) dollars defending them, and then I began to realize that the Supreme Court's got the say-so.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And I just, I won't go any farther than that, but it's, uh, it's
make you wonder, you know, if, uh, what the solution is.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: The court's got the say-so.
MOYEN: Um-hm, um-hm.
THOMAS: And, you know, the, it, it divides the legislators more than
anything.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: You know.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Not maybe the issue of, of what they thought, but if it, what
you're voting on is illegal. And you know it's illegal, and you know the court's gonna throw it out. Should you spend the state's three or four hundred thousand dollars whether(??) we need the money or not?MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And, you know, if you do, it's surely up to Kentucky(??), to
pay--they are by far the toughest issues(??).MOYEN: Um-hm. Um-hm. Now, maybe I missed--
THOMAS: --but we didn't for any taxes or nothing. I don't ever remember
01:31:00voting for any particular taxes.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: -----------(??)-----------
MOYEN: Um-hm. Now, maybe I missed this, but you do fall specifically on
the, on the pro-life or pro-choice--THOMAS: --most of the time pro-life.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: But then, I began, you know, it, it bothered me though, if I
knew they were illegal and we were gonna spend three or four hundred thousand--MOYEN: --right--
THOMAS: --dollars.
MOYEN: Right.
THOMAS: And if you, and by the time I left it wasn't, it, as much of it
as it is now.MOYEN: Right.
THOMAS: So, you know, it's a little bit.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Uh, it's a tough, -----------(??).
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: But, uh, I always thought, and still do, that, and we did, we
tried to put as much money into whatever program it took, where a woman wouldn't even have to think about it.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And, uh, I think you have to, it's a solution to it. -------
----(??) the one that doesn't have one, is gonna get kicked out of the house in the street. -----------(??) have someplace for her.MOYEN: Right.
THOMAS: So, I probably worked more in that -----------(??)-----------
01:32:00than, uh, than the other.MOYEN: Um-hm. Um, can you tell me about any instances, or, or just in
general, how regionalism affects legislators and the way they vote? And, and two, where is Marion County in terms of regional--it's not really western; it's, it's not urban or northern, or eastern; is it south central, or, or where is that classified?THOMAS: I think back when I was there that 90 percent of the votes that
were made for regions, for regionalism. Because I sat by, I know one legislator, I sat two seats from him for ten or twelve years, and, and I met him not long ago, couldn't remember what party(??) he belonged to. That's true. I mean, we just didn't have much of that. That he, we voted our region pretty much.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Or the mountains had their caucus, central Kentucky had
their caucus, and west Kentucky had their caucus, and Louisville had 01:33:00theirs, and northern Kentucky had theirs. And we, party lines didn't mean anything. You pretty much tried to vote, that in my case, it was pretty hard. Because we were probably, we probably had, uh, a high percent of the industrial people, in my home county, worked in Louisville at Ford and GE.MOYEN: Okay.
THOMAS: So, I was almost as much, actually a labor vote as I was any
other vote.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And well, Hart and Larue was more rural county votes. ---------
--(??)MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Which I liked anyway. It just was different(??). But my, it
couldn't have been any different in my two counties, -----------(??) counties.MOYEN: Huh, that's interesting. Um, where did your district primarily
get their media, what they saw on T.V., or what they read in the paper--THOMAS: --mostly Louisville.
MOYEN: Okay.
THOMAS: I think, uh, we, I think Lexington Herald goes more into Boyle
01:34:00County and stops there, although there's a lot of Lexington Herald there. And, uh, as far as T.V., I still think it's mostly Louisville.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Outside of U.K.(??) -----------(??).
MOYEN: Did, did you have a pretty good relationship with anyone at the
local papers, and--THOMAS: --yeah, I got along fine with them.
MOYEN: You feel like that that helped at all, or?
THOMAS: Yes, I was never one, I did, I didn't, I don't know what I
thought. I taught, well, you know, I tried to inform them of what I was doing. But that's all. I wasn't one; I didn't care about articles in the paper, or with, because mostly these articles that are written, you may or may not know it, they're written up here by somebody else, and then they're shipped to the papers.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And I was always, I knew I wasn't gonna do that.
MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: I -----------(??) somebody in my hometown, -----------(??) to
mark with three different papers somewhere. So, I never was much at that, at that -----------(??) kind of stuff.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: I, you know, I said, "Well, I just," got enough of that from
coaching.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: I just, I always thought the players should get the publicity, I
01:35:00just, wasn't my game(??).MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: Plus, it remind somebody run against you, -----------(??)--
MOYEN: --um-hm-- Do you have any stories about the legislature, either
with political dealings, or, um, funny anecdotes, stories that, that a research or someone who's interested isn't going to find in a newspaper anywhere that the, that you would know that would be interesting to, to share?THOMAS: Well, one of them, I would say, is, uh, when I first, uh, early
in the session, I went over to the highway, I've always was pretty good to people in the highway department.MOYEN: (laughs) Yeah.
THOMAS: And I went over and got some road. And, uh, the road was on
Highway 149 from, actually from my home-, where I live to where I used to coach.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And, uh, and I get over there, I got promise from them(??).
And then later on, I remember seeing one legislator coming out of 01:36:00over there at the time, but I didn't think much about it. About, uh, six weeks later, -----------(??)-----------, I get a call from the governor's office of Julian's, except it was Cox. No, they kept saying that Julian wanted to talk to me, and I wouldn't go down there, whatever it was. I can't remember what the deal(??) was.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: But it was controversial. And, uh, so they finally they sent
one of my better friends of the family, a boy named Pat Able(??), said, "Will you go talk to Cox?" And I said, "Yeah." So, I go down and talk to Cox. And I can't believe this. This was probably six weeks later. And there in that letter is where I was going to get that road turned towards me. I'm looking down at it. He never brought the letter up, and I never brought the letter up, you know. And so, we got talking about the bill, and I got thinking about--this is a true story--thinking about road. It's $350,000, which is a lot of money. 01:37:00Thinking about those jump hills, and one of my ex-football players actually had been killed in it, and really I thought about it. And I got to thinking about that bill, some bill, something in the mountains, if I'd vote for some judge(??). I didn't know. Anyway, I just had told somebody I wasn't(??) gonna do it.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: And, uh, you know, so, finally, he never brought the bill and
I never brought it up. I just kept looking down. Finally I got up, I said, "You know, Cox," I said, "I must have misread that bill; I thought that was Japanese." I said, "Now, I understand it." And I went back upstairs. But the good thing about it, of course, six months later, I did get the road with Julian(??). (Moyen laughs) So, you know, I'm not, I did right. I mean, whatever it was--MOYEN: --um-hm--
THOMAS: --it wasn't anything major. -----------(??) it goes, confirmed
some judge, or something.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: But I got to thinking about those jump(??) hills. (Moyen
laughs) That's a true story.MOYEN: Um-hm. Yeah. Anything else that I've missed, or that, uh, that
you'd like to mention?THOMAS: I can't think of anything. I've talked myself to death. I'm
01:38:00not used to--MOYEN: --no, I think it's great--
THOMAS: --I'm basically quiet. I was quiet when I came up here. Almost
shy.MOYEN: Um-hm.
THOMAS: You know. But you learn to talk or you can't survive.
MOYEN: Right. (laughs) Well, thank you for your time.
THOMAS: Well, I enjoyed it.
[End of interview.]
