Interview with Gross C. Lindsay, July 28, 2006

HERDMAN: The following is an unrehearsed interview with former State Representative Gross Lindsay who represented Henderson County from 1970 to 1979. The interview was conducted by Catherine Herdman for the University of Kentucky Oral History Project on July twenty-eighth in the office of Mr. Lindsay in Henderson, Kentucky.

LINDSAY: And I'm still the representative until the first Tuesday of the first Monday of January of 2007.

HERDMAN: Okay, great. Thank you. Mr. Lindsay, uh, thanks for sitting with me today. Could you tell me when and where you were born and who your parents were?

LINDSAY: I was born in, well, Evansville, Indiana, which is across the river. Uh, on December 11, 1930. , uh, we've always made the home here in Henderson. My father's name was, uh, William Forrest Lindsay and my mother's name was Haley Haroldson Lindsay.

HERDMAN: Okay, and what did they do for a living?

LINDSAY: My father was in the, uh, mercantile business and got wiped out 00:01:00in the Depression. And, uh, at the time of his death on December 13, 1939, he was, uh, working with the government, uh, on what was called commodities back in those days.

HERDMAN: Okay, was it a New Deal program, or?

LINDSAY: Yeah.

HERDMAN: Yeah, okay. And, uh, what do you remember about growing up in this area?

LINDSAY: Well, uh, I don't know, about everything I, about everything. I, you know, it's, uh, it's a, uh, uh, small town.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Uh, it's about, what? Twenty-eight- or 29,000 now but back then it was probably half that.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Or less, uh, it was, uh, pleasant, you know, I mean, there wasn't, there wasn't a whole lot of crime. You didn't have a, uh, as kids we ran all over town, you know. Uh.

HERDMAN: Did you live down town, or?

LINDSAY: Well, we lived in the city.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: We lived in the north, the north end, north Main Street, and then we moved down on, in the south end, on South Adams, and then, uh, on Cherry Street.

HERDMAN: Were there a lot of kids around?

LINDSAY: Oh yeah.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Oh yeah, and that was before the days where everybody had to belong to this team and everything. You know, we just went out. And, and, uh, you know, get, we get five or six kids up, we had a baseball game; get five or six kids up, you had a, you had a tag football game, or, you know, whatever it was.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: It was, uh, just that was just that type of situation. There weren't as many, uh, of course, uh, I'm sure that's true everywhere, there wasn't as many as what you would call organized. You know, everybody didn't belong to this team and that team, and this sort of thing. You just went out and, and played.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY:, uh, we, uh, uh, we'd boat on the river. , uh, started hunting when I was about twelve. Uh, and things like that it wasn't, uh, wasn't as regimented as it is today.

HERDMAN: Um-hm. And did your mother work?

LINDSAY: Yes.

HERDMAN: What did she do?

LINDSAY: She was executive, uh, uh, secretary of the Henderson County Chapter of the American Red Cross for about forty years, starting the in the thirties. She retired at eighty-two.

HERDMAN: Okay. Um, do you have brothers and sisters?

LINDSAY: I had one brother. , uh, and he died.

HERDMAN: Young, or?

LINDSAY: He was an older brother, twenty-three months older.

HERDMAN: Um-hm. And what do you remember about your grandparents?

LINDSAY: Uh, well, I don't remember my grandfather on my mother's side at all. , uh, but, uh, my grandmother, my mother's mother, uh, lived with us until her death. From my, so she was, she was always there.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Her husband, uh, died, uh, as a fairly young man. , uh, and, uh, uh, then, uh, she moved in with, uh, my mother and her husband 00:04:00after they were married.

HERDMAN: Okay, and what schools did you attend?

LINDSAY: I attended, uh--(laughs)--Seventh Street Grade School, uh, Jefferson Street Grade School, and, uh, Barrett, Barrett Manual Training High School.

HERDMAN: Um-hm. Did you have any teachers that were of particular interest, anyone you really liked?

LINDSAY: Oh yeah, we, well, you know, I, I, you know, I always, uh, got a long with them real well. Yeah, I can remember, uh, uh, Fannie B. Harrington(??), she taught typing. Uh, and, uh, Mrs. Fischer(??), she taught, uh, English, uh, literature, and history. And, uh, uh, Mrs. Hancock taught mathematics, these were all in high school.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Uh, and various -----------(??) Mr. Shannon taught shop. Barrett Manual Training High School, uh, was a situation, the high 00:05:00school was a situation--it's no longer in existence by the way.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Uh, the Barrettes, who were very, very wealthy, a family of large landowners, donated, uh, some building and some land to the, uh, school, school district. It was in Henderson City, uh, uh, schools at that time, which are no longer in existence; they merged with the county. But when he did that, he had a requirement that they had to teach the boys shop: one year of woodworking and one year of metal working.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Uh, and the girls had to take, uh, home economics; they taught, got one year of cooking and one year of sewing. So, that was the manual training and that's, uh, and that was, uh, true when I was there.

HERDMAN: Um-hm. Okay, and did you attend, uh, church?

LINDSAY: First Baptist Church.

HERDMAN: Okay, um, do you think your, um, religious upbringing had anything to do with your politics later?

LINDSAY: Hm. Not, not like it does, playing in it today.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: It was just a different thing. You went to church and, uh, uh, you lead(??) the religious education guidance and that sort of thing. But I don't remember church as being involved in politics--

HERDMAN: --um-hm--

LINDSAY: --then like they are today, and I think it's a fair assessment that they're very much in it today, and the, the parties play to it.

HERDMAN: Um-hm. Okay, um, did you attend college after high school?

LINDSAY: Yes. I attended--

HERDMAN: --where did you go?

LINDSAY: --uh, uh, Western. Then it was Western Kentucky State Teachers College.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: I started there in the fall of '48 and I went, uh, '48, '49, in the fall of '50. (whistles) No. [Nineteen] Forty-eight, '49, and in 00:07:00the spring of '50, I took off hitchhiking. My brother was down in west Texas. Uh, we had both worked for the National Park Concessions Inc. They're the people, the concessionaires, and I think they still have it at Mammoth Cave Hotel. He was a waiter and I was a busboy. And then he was also attending Western. And, uh, he, uh, went with them to, uh, Big Bend National Park--

HERDMAN: --um-hm--

LINDSAY: --down in West Texas. You ever been there?

HERDMAN: I haven't.

LINDSAY: Very pretty, very pretty. And back then, it was very much way out in the middle of nowhere; you had gravel roads to get there. But he, uh, had gone down there with them and they had concessions there. And then he had, uh, gone into a, a, kinda business with another, 00:08:00with a rancher down there. And had a horse concession, in other words people came down there. Uh, and they wanted to go on horse trips, so he took them on horse trips.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: And, uh, so I took off, I got a little tired of school, and so I took off down there, and, uh, to where he was, hitchhiked down there. And then, uh, stayed down there about six months. And then, uh, the Korean War broke out. So we came home and he went into the Air Force and I went back to Western that was in the fall of '50. And then in February of '51, I went into the Air Force.

HERDMAN: You enlisted?

LINDSAY: Yes.

HERDMAN: Yeah. Um, what did you do while you were in the armed services? Where were you stationed?

LINDSAY: I was in air weather service. In the Air Force an air weather service, which we reported in, uh, we reported on weather and that sort of thing. And, uh, uh, uh, furnished weather for the SAC, SAC Air 00:09:00Force--

HERDMAN: --um-hm--

LINDSAY: --bombers.

HERDMAN: Okay, and when did you finish up, uh, your armed services?

LINDSAY: I got out, uh, uh, I'm going to say the day after Thanksgiving in November of 1954. I spent 3 years, 9 months, and 23 days. And at one time I knew the hours and minutes and seconds. (both laugh) I've forgotten that.

HERDMAN: Um, did you enjoy being in the armed services, was it hard?

LINDSAY: Uh, no, no, I, uh. At, at first I think I kind of begrudged the time.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Uh, begrudged the time, but then over the years, uh, uh, it was, uh, probably the best thing that happened. Uh, the, uh, when I was, uh, that was the Cold War was hot and heavy--

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: --when I was in. And, uh, we were on, stationed at Air Force 00:10:00base in England.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Upper ----------(??) for about a year and a half, and then, Greenup Common for about a year, a year and a half. And during that time, uh, uh, had opportunities that ordinary bear don't get because, uh, uh, uh, George died. George VI died, his funeral, went to his funeral. Uh, Elizabeth was coroneted Queen; went to that. Uh, not with a written invitation--(Herdman laughs)--I was one of the ten million people. I mean, it, it was a, uh, uh, uh, throng of people. Uh, uh, you just can't, you can't, uh, uh, imagine the number of people were there. And a parade, you, that's, it was a one in a lifetime parade.

HERDMAN: Um-hm. For the coronation?

LINDSAY: Yeah, yeah, for the, uh, after the coronation the, uh, uh, the Queen, uh, uh, I have a, uh, videotape that was made up that I bought, oh, several years ago, and it just brought back many, many, many memories. But, uh, uh, she and Phillip came by in a gold coach. Actually it's, it's the gilded coach but everybody calls it, uh, uh, the gold coach. She wasn't, uh, oh, fifteen, twenty feet away.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: We were sitting on the curb. Of course we had been down there for about twenty-four hours.

HERDMAN: Wow.

LINDSAY: You know, like, if you see people go to the parades, and they get there early to get a good seat, well, I, that, we did that. There was two or three people, two or three fellows out of our outfit. We didn't, uh, uh, in England we didn't have to wear our uniforms off base, so we all dressed in civvies. And, uh, we went down there on Haymarket, between Piccadilly and the, and the, and, uh, the strand(??), uh, on Haymarket, and, uh, watched the parade, and it went 00:12:00on for about four hours, I think.

HERDMAN: Wow.

LINDSAY: It was fantastic. And, uh, you know, things like that, uh, I also went to France. We went, I went all, pretty much all over Europe, but I was in France on Bastille Day, when I think it was '52, '52 or '53, I can't remember, on Bastille Day when the French Foreign Legion troops were in a parade, a Bastille Day parade, uh, July the fourteenth. Uh, they had come back from Dien Bien Phu in, uh, Vietnam.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: And, uh, had the Communists riots and, and all that was, that was an interesting affair. So, uh, you look back, and, uh, you know, traveled, uh, back in those days, you didn't need a passport. All you needed was your military orders.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: And you travel, they, they wanted the, the American dollar 00:13:00was very, very, very, very popular. And all the countries wanted it. And, uh, uh, we always traveled in uniform because they would, uh, uh, excuse me.

HERDMAN: Sure, we'll hold for a second.

[Pause in recording.]

HERDMAN: Okay.

LINDSAY: Uh, and we could, uh, we'd go anywhere. And all I needed was orders, so and they were always glad, we came through there, never looked at your bags. They would put the big X on it and on you'd go.

HERDMAN: You traveled by train most of the time?

LINDSAY: Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah. Well, that, where we, we, yeah, we traveled by train because, uh, and they still have an excellent, uh, uh, uh, rail transportation systems over there. And, uh, uh, but then I also flew on military airplane.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: I was in air weather service. And we, we were the one who furnished, if somebody wanted to fly from, from, uh, England to somewhere else, you'd get, I don't know how much time you got but you 00:14:00getting--

HERDMAN: --as long as you want to.

LINDSAY: Uh, back in those days, uh, there were a tremendous amount of what, what I called retreads.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: They were pallets during World War II, and they were called back in for the Korean conflict. Well, in order to, to, for extra pay and in order to maintain their flying status--(coughs)--they had to do, uh, uh, so many hours of flying a month.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: And every base over there had what, what was then--I don't know whether you're familiar or not--they called a, a Charlie 47, a C47, uh, which was a two-engine, uh, propeller plane. If you'd have seen pictures of the paratroopers dropping, uh, uh, out of them on, uh, D-Day do you remember seeing them?

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Two, two-engine planes?

HERDMAN: Yeah.

LINDSAY: I don't think they flew over two hundred miles an hour. But that, it was one of those.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Hundreds of them. The British called them the Dakotas or something like that. Anyway, and there was always two or three of 00:15:00those on a base, and these guys used that to, uh, uh, fly and get their hours in.

HERDMAN: Um-hm. And transport, I mean, anybody that needed to go anywhere?

LINDSAY: That's right. Anybody, but just generally, uh, we'd find out, see, we worked with them because they came into our, to the weather shack to get the weather for where they were going.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: To see if they could go. And, uh, uh, uh, they would come in there and we would find out, and we got to know them, we'd find out where they were going, and then, uh, uh, we'd say, "You got room for one more."

HERDMAN: That's great.

LINDSAY: And, uh, that's right. And we'd, we'd get on, we didn't have papers or anything, we just had a Class A pass, and that's, in the weather ----------(??), all we had was a Class A pass; we would leaved the pass anytime we wanted when we weren't on duty. So, uh, yeah, and so we go, uh, we'd fly to Paris, to Rome. Uh, flew, I was in Rome on, uh, on Easter, got in St. Peter's Square, you know, got blessed by the 00:16:00Pope, and that sort of thing. So, so you look back on it, and, uh, uh, most of the countries in Europe.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: And although you, I begrudge at the time, as you look back on it was, it was extremely educational.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: And so, that's, uh, uh, so I enjoyed it, I enjoyed it.

HERDMAN: So you left the service when the Korean Conflict was over?

LINDSAY: No, when my term was up.

HERDMAN: Oh.

LINDSAY: I was a four-year enlistment, and I served 3 years, 9 months and 23 days. (Herdman laughs) But if you came back from overseas with less than ninety days to serve, they gave you a discharge.

HERDMAN: Um-hm, okay.

LINDSAY: And that's why I didn't do four years.

HERDMAN: Did you come back here, once you got out?

LINDSAY: Yeah, came back to Henderson, yeah.

HERDMAN: Did you, uh, finish college, or?

LINDSAY: That, uh, uh, that was in, uh, uh. Uh, I got in, uh, the end of November of 1954. And, uh, I had a friend that had been, uh, uh, been, uh, a flight engineer. And he and I had been friends, so we 00:17:00decided we were gonna go to the University of Kentucky. Well, that was back in the days when you just, you went up and signed up and paid your money and you were, you're in. Didn't have all the red tape now. So we went back to the University of Kentucky; I didn't go back to Western. Went back--

HERDMAN: --did you, uh, pay for it yourself or did your family pay for it--

LINDSAY: --well, I was on the G.I. Bill.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: The G.I. Bill.

HERDMAN: That's great.

LINDSAY: Yeah, yeah.

HERDMAN: Okay, so you went to Lexington and finished up at U.K.?

LINDSAY: Finished an undergraduate degree and went to law school. And that is one reason I did that was because, uh, I could do that and get a combined time.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: So it would get me, uh, the G.I. Bill got me all but about three months.

HERDMAN: And you got law school at U.K. as well?

LINDSAY: Yes. Um-hm.

HERDMAN: And then, uh, so when did you finally finish with school?

LINDSAY: I graduated in, uh, January of 1959, yeah, '59.

HERDMAN: And you were able to do most of your grad degree--

LINDSAY: --well, I was in the law degree.

HERDMAN: Yeah.

LINDSAY: Yeah, got the arts in '57. Yeah, in '59, in January of 1959, the, the diploma is dated February of 1959.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: And then I went and took the bar. And, uh, went to work as a law clerk at the court of appeals, which is now the supreme court.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Same thing.

HERDMAN: In?

LINDSAY: Nineteen fifty nine.

HERDMAN: In 1959--

LINDSAY: --and I worked, uh, there, uh, from I think it was about April, when I got the results of the bar, uh, it was about April, and I went to work then as a law clerk there for until September 1, 1960. So that's about a year and four, or five, six months. And I came down over my ----------(??). Been here ever since.

HERDMAN: Okay, and, uh, how did you first get interested in politics?

LINDSAY: Uh, I think it's just something you, you matriculate into, you know.

HERDMAN: Was your family political active, or anything?

LINDSAY: No, not really, no, I don't know of anybody in the family that ever held a public office.

HERDMAN: So from '60 to '70, you practiced law here in Henderson?

LINDSAY: Um-hm.

HERDMAN: And did you make connections during that time?

LINDSAY: Oh yeah, oh yeah--

HERDMAN: --yeah--

LINDSAY: --again it's not a big, big town; it's a small town.

HERDMAN: Did anybody ----------(??)--

LINDSAY: --I had run for county attorney and got beat.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: In fact I ran two, uh, two elections before I ever won one. I ran for state representative, oh, after I had been back here a couple years.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: But that was to, to get your name out.

HERDMAN: Right.

LINDSAY: Back in those days you couldn't advertise. But the way you run for political office and advertise you're in fact (??) a lawyer that was just a way to get your name around, you know.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Because I said a practice builder. (Herdman laughs) And then I ran for county attorney and didn't expect to win the first one, expect, and ran for county attorney, and was unsuccessful there. And then, uh, uh, uh, in, uh, whew. It's complicated situation. In, uh, and I wasn't even running for office, but in, uh, in August of 1969, uh, we 00:20:00had a, uh, a representative, and he was running for, uh, reelection in the, in the November. In August of '69, the county judge died. And he was appointed to fill his vacancy.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: And put on, got on the ballot as a county judge candidate, left a vacancy in the state representative cab-, office, and the local Democratic Party appointed me as to be the Democratic candidate for state representative, and I was elected in November of 1969, started my term in '70.

HERDMAN: So, the Democratic Party actually approach you to run--

LINDSAY: --yeah--

HERDMAN: --they wanted you to run.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Central committee(??)

HERDMAN: Were you, were you active with the Democratic Party at that time?

LINDSAY: Uh, well, yes and no. Uh, you've got to remember, uh, how old are you?

HERDMAN: Thirty-one.

LINDSAY: Oh, mere child. (Herdman laughs) A mere child, a mere child. 00:21:00In 1969, the registration of Democrats and Republicans in Henderson County was, uh, something like 15 to 1 Democrat. You just didn't have any Republicans in the county. You had factions in the Democratic Party, which we have had statewide for years.

HERDMAN: Right.

LINDSAY: If you have gone around and, and, and checked on it, you know we have various factions.

HERDMAN: Right.

LINDSAY: There as bad as the Democrats and Republicans. But, uh, uh, yes, I'd been, uh, uh, I'd been peripherally--

HERDMAN: --um-hm--

LINDSAY: --uh, involved in it, and, uh, uh, uh, but as far as, uh, uh, party politics, no, because there wasn't any.

HERDMAN: So, who did you run against for that election, did you run against another Democrat, or?

LINDSAY: No, no. In November, there was a Republican on the ballot.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: And I have to be honest with you, I cannot tell you what his name was.

HERDMAN: How did you campaign or did you campaign?

LINDSAY: Well I had two weeks; I didn't have much time. I just, again, 00:22:00you know, registration--

HERDMAN: --right, right--

LINDSAY: --when registration is fifteen-, 15 to 1 Democrat, you know.

HERDMAN: Right.

LINDSAY: It wasn't any problem, you know.

HERDMAN: -- ----------(??)---------, candidate, right--

LINDSAY: I put a, I put a few ads in the paper, and that was back in the days where you didn't have to report, you just, you know. And I put some ads in the paper and this sort of thing, and, and back, hired some campaign workers. And there we were.

HERDMAN: All right, um, what was your expectation when you first went to Frankfort?

LINDSAY: Well, uh, I hoped to, which you always do, do, to, to, to, to be a good representative and, uh, to help your county. And do what, what you think was in the best interest of the state. Now, that sounds maybe a little corny but you have to remember that for sixteen, eighteen months, I worked in Frankfort--

HERDMAN: --um-hm--

LINDSAY: --as a law clerk for the court of appeals, so, uh, uh, Frankfort was not, uh, a foreign country.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Uh, and, uh, I had, I had, I had, had the, uh, although the 00:23:00court, the court and the judges ran on nonpartisan--

HERDMAN: --um-hm--

LINDSAY: --ballots; uh, uh, they were, uh, they were Democrats and Republicans.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Most of them were Democrats of course, but there were Democrats and Republicans. And, uh, there were factions. And while I was there, Combs beat Chandler. And I remember going to Combs's inauguration, and you talk, uh, uh, you talk about political, you know, I mean, that's, that was, that was just as political as any Democrat/Republican--

HERDMAN: --um-hm--

LINDSAY: --ever could be, you know. Because, uh, the ins--(laughs)--the ins-, the outs when they got in through the ins-outs. (both laugh) You know, I mean that's just the way it was, so that's, uh, uh, it wasn't partisan politics, but there was politics.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: But it was, uh, personality politics more than anything else. And not even a whole lot of, uh, philosophy politics, just, uh, 00:24:00personality politics.

HERDMAN: Did you find negotiation to be a big part of it, like --------- (??)--

LINDSAY: --well, when I first, well, when I first, again, when I first went to Frankfort, uh, oh, Lord, you hadn't even been born. (Herdman laughs) Uh, in, in February--I mean, in January of 1970, at that time the governor had absolute control over the legislature. And if you'd been interviewing old--

HERDMAN: --um-hm--

LINDSAY: --representatives, and I'm sure you knew from the senators, if you've already talked to Senator Sullivan--

HERDMAN: --yes--

LINDSAY: --you know what I'm talking about. The governor had absolute control over the legislator. He did that, one, through electing of the leadership.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: He also did it because we were elected in December, I mean, November, the same time he was, well, he went into office in December, was it the fifth Tuesday after the, after the, uh, fifth Monday of the election, or something, some situation. Anyway, uh, and, uh, 00:25:00uh, he saw that, uh, the, uh, uh, leadership of the, of the houses, he controlled them. Uh, and, uh, uh, so, we got, there's a piece of paper right here, we got things on our desk every day, "Pass, no pass, no position."

HERDMAN: Was there any opportunity to work outside that?

LINDSAY: Uh, probably zero to none.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Why, because the people that are gonna control that were the, were the leadership people. And they were gonna control that. Like, uh, uh, uh, when I went Julian Carroll was the speaker of the House. The, uh, majority floor leader was, uh, uh, Terry McBrayer. Uh, they 00:26:00were more or less Combs--

HERDMAN: --um-hm--

LINDSAY: --people. Well, when, uh, uh, when, uh, Ford was elected, uh, he was a, he wasn't a merely Combs person; he wasn't a Chandler person; he was just a different--

HERDMAN: --um-hm--

LINDSAY: --personality. Okay, so he elected, uh, uh, the leadership. Terry McBrayer started off running for, uh, uh, speaker of the House. And, uh, uh, they didn't want him to be speaker of the House, so, uh, uh, they beat him. And, uh, uh, uh, that was, uh, that was the, uh, situation at that time because the first floor did it. We didn't know what a lobbyist was in the seventies.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Why, they wanted something done, why did they come to us, we don't have any authority. They went down on the first floor. They went 00:27:00down on the first floor. And, uh, uh, uh, had to get the executive's approval, the governor's approval to get anything done. It was just that simple, it was just that simple. So no, there, you, uh, once in a while you could kill a bill. But you had to do it by using the rules.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: The rules and procedures. Now, they did have rules and procedures. And although those rules can be waived you could, uh, you learned the rules to, uh, to use them as your benefit, and I, and I'm not a very good follower. And, uh, uh, so I learned the rules and used them for my benefit for whatever I could. Didn't mean I did a whole lot.

HERDMAN: What committees did you serve on your first term?

LINDSAY: I was a freshman. I was appropriations and revenue, which was unheard of today. Uh, judiciary and elections, and constitutional amendments.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: And then I got, I didn't do some of the things they wanted me 00:28:00to do, and I got kicked off of appropriations and revenue and got put on, uh, counties and special districts.

HERDMAN: How did you get, what do you mean kicked off?

LINDSAY: Well, uh, they wanted certain things done, and I just had a little trouble with it.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Voting, you know, and so.

HERDMAN: What type of things?

LINDSAY: Oh, you know, just, uh, politics.

HERDMAN: Um-hm. When you first went to Frankfort what do you think were the primary needs were of your district? What were they, what were your constituents concerned about that first term?

LINDSAY: I think, uh, uh, basically I guess no different from today. Wanted jobs.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Uh, highways, roads, you know, and that sort of thing. I mean, uh, uh, we had just gotten, uh, Governor Chandler had just opened up the community college down here. And, uh, uh, that was, that was of interest. But primarily I think if you really got right down to it, it was jobs.

HERDMAN: Um-hm, what, uh, what kind of--

LINDSAY: --uh, help with the economic development, it you want to put it that way, and, and, and, and roads and highways, yeah.

HERDMAN: What kind of economic development was Henderson looking at? Was it companies, or coal, or?

LINDSAY: Uh--

HERDMAN: --what's out here?

LINDSAY: Well, we have always had coal here and we still have coal here. But, uh, uh, well, you know, I mean, uh, uh, uh, just some factories we had, uh, that woman, uh, that was sitting out there, the lady was sitting there when you came in, her husband came here with a factory in the seventies.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Uh, and she stayed, and he stayed; they both stayed. When he retired they both stayed and then he died. And we've had, uh, it's always, you always after, uh, uh, uh, factories and employment.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: The, the, uh, the, the, the, uh, statements today, you here today, we need this so we can keep our kids at home, that was the same 00:30:00statement that was--

HERDMAN: --um-hm--

LINDSAY: --that was back in the seventies. We need places with jobs, so we can keep our kids at home. So they don't have to go to Atlanta, to New York, Chicago, Louisville, wherever, to get a job. They can get a job here and stay home.

HERDMAN: Do you think that has improved since the seventies?

LINDSAY: It has, it has to improve some because we probably doubled in size.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: But has the human(??) cry changed? No. (both laugh)

HERDMAN: When did you run the second time? What, when did you run for reelection?

LINDSAY: Uh, in, uh, in '92.

HERDMAN: Okay, you mean, okay, so you served throughout the seventies up through '79?

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: And then why did you leave in '79?

LINDSAY: Uh, well, my wife, uh, uh, I had a daughter growing up. And my wife, uh, said I was spending too much time away. And, and I was, and I, I, I couldn't argue with her a whole lot because, although those were my productive years--

HERDMAN: --um-hm--

LINDSAY: --in law practice, and, uh.

HERDMAN: So, you kept your practice while you were--

LINDSAY: --oh yeah, oh yeah.

HERDMAN: Okay. And how--

LINDSAY: --because we didn't have any, we didn't have interim committees like you've got today.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: You went up there for ninety days, or strung over, sixty days strung over a, a, a ninety-day period, and then you came home. And then you came home. And then you came home. And we didn't have annual sessions.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: You know.

HERDMAN: Um, did you find it hard to balance the job being a legislator and a family?

LINDSAY: Yeah, I think so, I think so. My wife really wasn't interested in the, into the politics thing, you know, and, had a, had a daughter--

HERDMAN: --um-hm--

LINDSAY: --that was a teenager, you know, and they, you know.

HERDMAN: When you went did you generally stay in Frankfort?

LINDSAY: Yes.

HERDMAN: Where did you stay?

LINDSAY: Oh--(laughs)--I stayed one, one time in a motel.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: You know, go up, I paid, uh, uh, and they would hold a room for me, paid, uh, uh, stayed Monday night, Tuesday night, Wednesday 00:32:00night, and Thursday night. And packed up and came home. And that was terrible. And then, uh, uh, two or three of us rented an apartment. And then we rented a house.

HERDMAN: Just for the few months or you kept it there?

LINDSAY: No, no, no, just for the few months.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Because there wasn't anything else doing, back in those days, you know when the legislature shut down, baby, she shut down.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: And Frankfort did too. Now that was before the annual, the annual sessions.

HERDMAN: Did you find, um, a lot of politics to be going on outside the official setting, like the hotels or restaurants or drinks after work or anything like that?

LINDSAY: Oh, uh, yeah, yeah, there was always a lot of, uh, bull, gossip. Wheeling and dealing, that's what you're talking about.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Yeah, yeah.

HERDMAN: Well, and then later, people from later after the lobbyist come on the scene that seems to be where they infiltrated, too, a lot as far as.

LINDSAY: Yeah, but see back then in the seventies, lobbyists didn't talk 00:33:00to us.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Yeah.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Why, why did they want to talk to us?

HERDMAN: It seems to me like legislative independence kinda brought the lobbying thing in Frankfort.

LINDSAY: They moved from the first floor to the third floor.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Yep.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: And that's true, it was the result of the Kenton Amendment.

HERDMAN: Yep.

LINDSAY: Because we get, we got some independence then.

HERDMAN: Um-hm. How did you, um, gauge public opinion in the seventies? Were you friendly with the newspaper, or did people write in, or how did you know what your constitutes wanted? They called you?

LINDSAY: They called me on the phone. (laughs) My, my, my number, my office number, my home number, uh, is, uh, uh, always been in the book.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Uh, I, uh, I remember a couple of civic organizations, uh.

HERDMAN: How important are the civic organizations, or were they in the seventies?

LINDSAY: Probably more important then, than they are today. Uh, but, uh.

HERDMAN: What were the major clubs in Henderson?

LINDSAY: Well, the, uh, Lions, and the Rotary, and the Jaycees.

HERDMAN: Um-hm. Did you speak at their meetings?

LINDSAY: Oh, whenever they wanted, you know.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Have mouth, will travel.

HERDMAN: Yep. (Lindsay laughs) And what were the major issues they were pushing for, same kind of thing?

LINDSAY: Same, basically, roads, roads, roads were much higher on the list then than they are today.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: But then jobs, factories and jobs. Because all, most of those people were businesspeople, they're looking for business.

HERDMAN: Right. Okay, um, okay, let's go ahead and move forward you left in '79, voluntarily you chose not to run--

LINDSAY: --yes.

HERDMAN: Okay, and when did you run again?

LINDSAY: In '92.

HERDMAN: Also for the House?

LINDSAY: Yes.

HERDMAN: Okay, and were, were you elected in '92?

LINDSAY: Yes.

HERDMAN: Okay, and you served from '92 until?

LINDSAY: Through, through this year.

HERDMAN: Through present, okay. Well, let me ask you this--

LINDSAY: --well, actually January of '93.

HERDMAN: Okay, January of '93--

LINDSAY: --elected in '92, -----------(??).

HERDMAN: Okay, how, uh, how did you find, find things different between '79 and '93 when you came back?

LINDSAY: Hm. Well, it wasn't, it wasn't a shock to me because, uh, after, I worked as a lobbyist for, uh, one session after I, uh, left office.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: And I worked as, uh, House counsel for the, uh, uh, majority floor leader and the, uh, uh, leadership, House leadership. So, uh, I was up there during the session for, for a couple of sessions.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: So I could see the changes, and I had a, just had world of, were I was very, very, very fortunate, had a world, a world of friends. Used to call me. (laughs) "And Gross, you won't believe what happened." (laughs)

HERDMAN: Keep you apprised?

LINDSAY: Yeah, yeah.

HERDMAN: So, what, what changed in your personal life to make you decide 00:36:00to run again?

LINDSAY: Well, my daughter had grown.

HERDMAN: You only have one child?

LINDSAY: One child.

HERDMAN: And what's her name?

LINDSAY: Uh, Lisa.

HERDMAN: And she stayed around here?

LINDSAY: No, uh, she, uh, uh, uh, stayed in Lexington and worked up there in public relations. She got married and they moved to Phoenix, they moved to Indianapolis, and she's back in Louisville.

HERDMAN: Okay. (both laugh) What was your wife's name? We skipped over that(??).

LINDSAY: Sabra.

HERDMAN: What's that?

LINDSAY: Sabra. S-A-B-R-A

HERDMAN: And when did you get married?

LINDSAY: Oh. August of 1956.

HERDMAN: So, it was after you got back from the service.

LINDSAY: Yeah.

HERDMAN: You'd been here a couple of years?

LINDSAY: Um-hm.

HERDMAN: Did you meet her in Lexington while you were at school?

LINDSAY: Met her at UK, yeah.

HERDMAN: Okay.

LINDSAY: She was from Virginia.

HERDMAN: Okay.

LINDSAY: And I can't tell you, it was either the eighth or the eighteenth.

HERDMAN: We, we won't tell her that.

LINDSAY: Well, I didn't, I just bought her something on each one, one was anniversary and the other was her birthday. (Herdman laughs) I bought her something on each one, and she used to say, "Oh, you remembered." (laughs) But I didn't know what I'd remembered.

HERDMAN: All right, so you came back in '92, um, did you find at that time a big difference in regard to legislative independence?

LINDSAY: Oh yeah, oh yeah.

HERDMAN: Okay, what, uh--

LINDSAY: --and that is what got the legislative in trouble was BOPTROT.

HERDMAN: Um-hm. Okay. And what were the, uh, we've talked about how the lobbyists kinda came on the scene at that point, when you were lobbying who were you lobbying for?

LINDSAY: Uh, it wasn't a very big thing; it was, uh, uh, county fairs.

HERDMAN: Um-hm. On behalf of--

LINDSAY: --and the standardbred horse industry.

HERDMAN: Wow, okay. And then once you were back in office who were the big lobbyists at that time?

LINDSAY: Oh, geez, honey.

HERDMAN: Lots of them?

LINDSAY: I'm serious. And I, I, I didn't check it but I have every re-, this last session we have a 138 members in the General Assembly; we had over 700 lobbyists.

HERDMAN: Wow.

LINDSAY: Registered at one time or the other. You understand what I'm 00:38:00saying?

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: It's, I mean, I'm telling you, it gotten to a point where and, and, and, and I'm not pointing a finger at anything, but it had gotten to a point where, uh, a, a young legislature can be overwhelmed and smothered by these people.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Because they're not up there for good government.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Except what they want, which in their opinion and what they're doing represents good government. So, that's, uh, it's, it's, it's getting to be a real problem, especially I think the people that have been around for a while and have seen how, how to operate without it.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Having as one legislator said, said, "Hell, they're like vultures; sitting on the fence, they're waiting for you to come by and--(hits the table)--pounce on you." But that's, uh.

HERDMAN: Now, between the, your first terms and your more recent terms, the LRC became more active, is that true?

LINDSAY: Yes.

HERDMAN: Okay.

LINDSAY: Um-hm.

HERDMAN: What kind of difference did that make?

LINDSAY: Well, I think they had more staff, they did greater research-- uh, can, let me get a glass of water.

HERDMAN: Sure.

[Pause in recording.]

HERDMAN: Okay, uh, we were just discussing the difference(??) of legislative independence made. Uh, how, what purpose did the legislature function in the seventies?

LINDSAY: Well, you know, legislature, there's a lot of things the governor controlled the day to day, ----------(??), the day to day operations. But there were a lot of things that, uh, uh, uh, they had to go through the, through the legislature to get done. And, uh, uh, I don't know, uh, and, and Senator Sullivan was, uh, he introduced a bill in the Senate and I introduced one in the House for the, uh, uh, for the, uh, creation of the new judicial system, which he probably spoke to you about. Uh, and that was done in, in the seventies, and that was, uh, uh, that was something that, uh, that was passed through the legislature because it had to be a constitutional amendment, had to be put on the ballot, and the legislature I think as, in, as, as a 00:40:00practical matter, I think, was very, very active in, in getting that passed--

HERDMAN: --um-hm--

LINDSAY: --to, uh, reform the judicial system to take it out, uh, the old, you probably don't remember, but you, you'll hear from now the, uh, uh, the, uh, paying the fine, and on, on the front porch, and the receipt went in the pocket or the trashcan. So, uh, to try to take the, uh, uh, the money leverage out of, out of, out of the judiciary and out of, out of things like that. And so, that was done through the legislature. Uh, also I believe(??), and, and, and Senator Sullivan was I believe and I was, we were on a special committee for the implementation of the judicial article.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Which was, we went out, we met for about a year and half to, uh, uh, uh, draw statues to put in the statue book to, uh, uh, uh, to give the basis, the statutory basis for the new court system, and 00:41:00eventually creation of the AOC, Administrative Office of the Courts, and this sort of thing. So, no, that doesn't, I didn't mean to leave you the impression that nothing was done in the seventies.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Still things were done, in the seventies and also, and this is also during, uh, uh, uh, uh, Wendell's, uh, tour as governor, uh, uh, we also, uh, again the legislature passed the, uh, uh, criminal code--

HERDMAN: --um-hm--

LINDSAY: --which was a complete modernization of the, uh, of the, uh, ten thousand individual custom-crime statues into a organized, into an organized, uh, uh, statutory system to handle the crimes. We did that. And there're a lot of things we've done like that, uh. Uh, uh, we, uh, uh, when I was on the, uh, uh, we did a lot of things, like, we passed, 00:42:00passed, that I think was good stuff. Now, the Governor wasn't involved in it; he could've vetoed; he could've killed it, but he didn't. Uh, uh, we passed a bill in the House, uh, uh, that, uh, took away the, uh, you don't remember, but a lot of, ask your older, uh, uh, uh, hands at, uh, at that university in your, whatever department you're in. Uh, you couldn't go to the polls to vote without having to go through, uh--

HERDMAN: --um-hm--

LINDSAY: --line of people pushing tickets and stuff at you. I, I, you know, just, uh, of what we called poll workers. In the seventies, we passed a law that, uh, that the counties could, uh, uh, uh, uh, withhold, uh, permission to, to politic within 500 feet of the voting place so that did away with that.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: It was just and, and why is that important, today the federal 00:43:00court just ruled, oh, three or four years ago that 500 feet was unconstitutional. It was denying the people the right to petition their government. So, so I think it's down to 300 now, 300 feet. (Herdman laughs) Five hundred wasn't, was unconstitutional; three hundred feet is constitutional. But things like that, things like that were done, I mean , to say, uh, uh, things moved on and during, uh, Julian, uh, uh, Carroll was, uh, uh, was governor, but he was also an old legislative hand; he came up through the legislature; he came up through the speaker of the House, lieutenant governor. So, the president pro temp back in those days were the senate. So, uh, uh, uh, he was a legislative man. And, uh, uh, we did a lot of things there, uh.

HERDMAN: So it was just the vote that was locked in; you could suggest new bills and do research and, and--

LINDSAY: --but if they didn't want it, if the governor didn't want it, like, ivory soap, 99 and 44/100 percent of the time it didn't happen.

HERDMAN: Yeah, okay.

LINDSAY: It didn't happen and, uh, uh.

HERDMAN: But you did have a chance to originate things, and to--

LINDSAY: --oh yeah, oh yeah--

HERDMAN: -- ----------(??)--------- --

LINDSAY: --that's what I'm saying. -------------(??)

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: And, uh, uh, uh, then when Brown came in as governor, he was a whole different ballgame. Why? Because he wasn't, he didn't have political background.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: He was Kentucky Fried Chicken. And he, uh, he, uh, uh, he, uh, he, he controlled the executive in more of a corporate faction, fashion. He appointed very, very competent people to, uh, uh, to head various and sundry departments, which are different then than they are today, and then he's just hands-off. He let them run it.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: But, uh, whereas the other governors were, were always had their fingers in the pie there. But, uh.

HERDMAN: So, how did that change, when you came back in '92, then how 00:45:00did the legislature function differently? What did you do day to day?

LINDSAY: Well, because they had passed the Kenton Amendment--

HERDMAN: --um-hm--

LINDSAY: --which removed the governors, see back when I was in there in the seventies, the governor could only serve one term.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: And so they changed it the election of the legislature, and the election of the governor were two separate times--

HERDMAN: --um-hm--

LINDSAY: --when the, the legislature leadership was elected prior to the governor being elected. So the leadership was already elected--

HERDMAN: --um-hm--

LINDSAY: --when the governor came in. So that, that's referred to as the Kenton Amendment and it effectively, uh, cut the governor's power.

HERDMAN: Um-hm. And then it gave the legislature more room to maneuver?

LINDSAY: Exactly right.

HERDMAN: Okay.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Exactly right. And, and, uh, uh, in the early eighties while I was, uh, an acting as council for the House Democratic leadership, we filed suit against the governor. And I was the attorney; it was called LRC v. Brown, Legislative Research Commission v. Brown. Did, and it was a challenge and testing because even back then, see, the, the 00:46:00legislature was, was wanting to find out who had the right to do this and who had the right to do, and it was challenging the, basically six grounds of who had the authority, the governor or the legislature.

HERDMAN: So, the legislator, the LRC sued the, or took the, took issue with the governor--

LINDSAY: --yeah--

HERDMAN: --and the courts decided.

LINDSAY: That's right.

HERDMAN: Okay.

LINDSAY: And they ruled, they ruled, uh, basically they ruled against the legislature except, uh, in two areas that you won't view, one was blocked grants, which you probably never heard about, but they were, that's when the feds would give the state money for specific purpose. The federal law said the legislature had to provide for it, so we got that part. But the biggest win of all, in my, my opinion, was, was the court said that the budget was a legislative function. So the Governor couldn't take that away from the budget from the legislature. And you, I don't care, honey, you give me the money--

HERDMAN: --um-hm--

LINDSAY: --and I'll get what I want. (laughs)

HERDMAN: So, then after, after that time period where the legislator had, the legislature had more power, um, was it a harder job at that point? Did it require more research, or how did it compare?

LINDSAY: Well, because you've got to realize that, uh, uh, the LRC had become--

HERDMAN: --um-hm, so that balanced it off to some degree--

LINDSAY: --more of a, uh, uh, business like, you know, we had, uh, ample staff, ---------(??) research--

HERDMAN: --did you at least have a cubicle, or some sort of office space?

LINDSAY: Yeah, well, we had, when I, uh, when I, in the seventies, when I was there, your office was on the floor. You've you been to the legislature?

HERDMAN: Unh-uh, not yet.

LINDSAY: You've never been to the legislature before?

HERDMAN: Not yet. (laughs)

LINDSAY: Well, your desk on the floor, and there the same dang ole' desk they had in the seventies, that was your office. And you had all these books stacked up all over the place. That was your office. And that's where they put the bills. Uh, then when I first, then they, they went to cubicles over in the basement of the Annex, and that's where they 00:48:00were when I came back, in cubicles.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Which weren't really all that bad, they were just, uh, you've seen these offices like in, uh, oh, I don't know. You see them on television and on, on movies and that, where there was just an area, you had a desk and a bookshelf and that sort of thing.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: That was it; that's the cubicle. Yes. And they weren't all that bad. In fact there was a lot of advantages to those cubicles, but then, uh, uh, they went to offices in Annex.

HERDMAN: And you have an office there now?

LINDSAY: Um-hm.

HERDMAN: And, um, did you notice, was there any difference in the social aspect in the sense that you can't hear everybody in an office the way you can in the cubicles, or did that make any difference in --(Lindsay coughs)-- ---------(??) space?

LINDSAY: Oh, I think it made a big difference. Uh, to a detriment. Everybody has an office now. They can go to their office and shut the door, they go to their office. In the basement when they had cubicles, you wanted to go around and you wanted to talk to people about a bill and this sort of thing. It'd be like for me walking out that door, 00:49:00into my law--

HERDMAN: --um-hm--

LINDSAY: --law partner's door down there, or up into the, the room next to here, where the closing room. You just, that, that was it. And people would sit around and gossip and bull.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: And you'd find out all kinds of information, all kinds of information. To that extent, the, uh, was lost when you went to offices because you never knew where anybody was.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Where I have an office up there I think there're one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, there're eight people in the area, but each one has a separate office.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: And you never knew where people were.

HERDMAN: In regard to changes what do you think about the annual session, the change(??)--

LINDSAY: --I think it's terrible.

HERDMAN: Yeah. Why?

LINDSAY: Uh, I, I, I think that one thing that was great about in the seventies and in the, in the early nineties, uh, before they, before they did this was that Kentucky was a citizen legislature, was a 00:50:00citizen legislature. There were people up there, they're farmers. Uh, what's that thing, uh, bakers, a candlestick maker, lawyers, doctors, everything, insurance people, real estate people, not to say that they're not today, but there was so much more. They came, did their work, and went home, and went home. What you've got now is you just, you're having more, in my opinion, professional legislators.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Because many of them, and it's very difficult on me; it costs me money to serve in the legislature.

HERDMAN: Overall.

LINDSAY: Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah. Because you can't be here to take care of business.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Now you can say what you want, since, since, since the session I've been as busy as a--

HERDMAN: --um-hm--

LINDSAY: --you know, uh, uh, and, and, and that was something that, uh, 00:51:00uh, and you've got people there now, you still got the bakers and, uh, the candlestick makers and this sort of thing, but if you'll really, if you will keep your mouth shut and you'll listen generally their employer has some interest in Frankfort.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: So he's willing to give them the time off to go down, and I'll guarantee they're looking after his interest.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: So that's the situation, and I think eventually it will kill the, the legislature in Kentucky as a citizen legislature. You got, if you'll go around and look at other states, and I think this is true maybe in, in, uh, New Jersey and Ohio and other places like that, where they've gone to annual sessions, first thing they did was lengthen them.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Next thing you know they're just all but full-time legislators. And if you, you're looking into this and this sort of thing, I think 00:52:00you will find that.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: That the, the more time that they spend, uh, in session or, or, uh, or being there is the, uh, greater chance are it's gonna be a professional legislator, which I do not believe is the best interest for the people.

HERDMAN: Um-hm. Okay, um, what was your biggest accomplishment over the years that you've been in, that you served in the legislature?

LINDSAY: Survived. (both laugh) Oh I don't know, I don't know.

HERDMAN: Any bill that you particular worked on? I mean, you mentioned the judiciary reform, uh, bill that that was an interest to you. Anything else that you worked on specifically?

LINDSAY: Oh, you know, I mean, honey, you just, uh, I think the, uh, uh, revision of the criminal code was important.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Uh, you know, I'm.

HERDMAN: Any big disappointments? Anything you wanted to see go that 00:53:00didn't, or?

LINDSAY: Well I worked on this future gen thing this last session. And it, it, it didn't go through, you know. but I, I've always, I have the tendency, I, I guess to, uh, regardless of what happens if it doesn't happen this time you have another shot at it later on, or something.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: But, I, uh, uh, lord, let me. I had, that's why I had the secretary go, I mean. Uh.

HERDMAN: You looking through a list of everything you've worked on, or?

LINDSAY: Uh, well I just, uh, uh, see, right now, I'm, uh, I'm, uh, chairman of the, uh, AOC, uh, uh, court facilities.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: What's that? That means if there is a judicial center, like this one next door, built in the, the state of Kentucky it goes through that committee.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: I'm also on, uh, uh, the, uh, Kentucky Rules of Evidence 00:54:00Commission. What does that do? That is chaired, I don't chair that, but that was chaired by Justice Cooper, who just retired June the thirtieth, so he could get a bigger retirement check. Uh, uh, uh, and he was the chairman of that committee that, that examines and changes rules of evidence, by which are used by the courts or, uh, uh, that sort of thing. I, you know, I mean, you're, you're asking me, see, as chairman of judiciary committee, we, we got, we got every, I'm going to say, shouldn't probably shouldn't say but we got every tough job or nasty job that no other committee wanted.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: And we did, we, just this last session we did, uh, made major changes in the sex offender bill.

HERDMAN: Um-hm. And you landed there because of your legal experience, right?

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: That's right.

HERDMAN: Because you're a lawyer.

LINDSAY: That's right, that's right.

HERDMAN: But pretty much ---------(??)--

LINDSAY: --but not, but all of them on there are not lawyers.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: On the, uh, there's seventeen on the committee, and, uh, uh, I'd say, uh, thirteen, fourteen are lawyers; five or six not.

HERDMAN: Okay, um, who were your friends or mentors or who helped you out, who've been you're, uh?

LINDSAY: Oh, you know, that's I couldn't name them all. Julian, uh, was a big help when I first got there. Terry McBrayer was a big help. Uh, uh, I'd been to law school with John Y. Brown, so it just, I knew him. Uh, and, uh, you know, you kinda matriculate, uh, uh, together and, uh, uh, knew Wendell. Uh, he was big in the Jaycees before he gotten into politics and I was in the Jaycees and knew him. You, uh, has there been any one person that has taken me by the hand? No, I've just, I've tried, oh yeah(??), I've tried to use the best of all of them.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: You know, I mean, uh, to get information. That's the name of the game; the more information you get, it, it, it, the better off you are.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Sully, Sully was a great, great, great help. Of course he'd been there, uh, before I got there. And, uh, uh, uh, that sort of thing, and, uh, I just, you get, you get to make friends and, and that sort of thing. Uh, uh, Jackson White(??) who was, uh, worked for the governor and who worked for, was also, uh, uh, worked, was a director of LRC, uh, uh, was a big help, very, very, very smart man. Very, very smart man. But you don't, uh, to, to say that, uh, uh, I did everything that so and so wanted, or so and so took me by the hand that's, uh, uh, uh, difficult to say; so many of them helped me that, uh--

HERDMAN: --um-hm--

LINDSAY: --to say that no, that one, I can't say that.

HERDMAN: Well, and you would've served with a number of people with the two different times--

LINDSAY: --oh--

HERDMAN: --that you were there--

LINDSAY: --oh yeah--

HERDMAN: --the number would even be high.

LINDSAY: Oh yeah. No way, no way I can count them all.

HERDMAN: Yeah. Do you have any, um--

LINDSAY: --no way I could count them--

HERDMAN: --any funny stories or anecdotes or pranks?

LINDSAY: Not, not for the ladies. (both laugh)

HERDMAN: Fair enough, fair enough. Okay. Um, let's talk a little bit about the governors. You've mentioned them a little bit. Anything else you'd like to say about the particular governors you served under?

LINDSAY: Governors , uh, uh, uh, uh, without missing any names, uh, each governor, it's just like people; each people have different, uh, ways they operate.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Uh, you're, uh, you're working on your doctorate. And you have had various and sundry professors.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: And those various and sundry professors, uh, uh--

HERDMAN: --they each have their own quirks; that's for sure--

LINDSAY: --I started to say(??), they, they teach different ways.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: That's right.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: They teach different ways. I, you know, I was a, I taught when I first started practicing law. I taught down at the community college. As an adjunct professor to make a buck.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: You know, it's like running for office, you make, you know, getting your name out there. And, uh, uh, uh, uh, from talking to students, you know, they have, uh, they have different ways that they look at teachers and this sort of thing. And each, each teacher seems to be a little bit different. And so, I can't, I can't say that; they're different. That the governors have different styles--

HERDMAN: --um-hm--

LINDSAY: --there's no doubt about it. There's no doubt about it. When I first went to legislature, Louie Nunn was governor.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: He's a Republican. Democrat House, Democrat Senate. But he was, uh, uh, he was, uh, he operated. And he was smooth. Uh, and then you had, then I had Wendell, and, and, uh, uh, Julian and, uh, John Y. and Martha Layne. And old Wallace and then Jones. And Patton, and up to--

HERDMAN: --a lot of different governors for you. (laughs)

LINDSAY: Yeah. Yeah, and they're a lot of and their methods of 00:59:00operation was, uh, uh, it's, it's, you know, back and I could, I could tell some stories but I'm not, that, uh, their method of operation was, uh, different.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: It really was different, you know.

HERDMAN: Did you, were more, were some of them on the up and up than others?

LINDSAY: Oh yeah.

HERDMAN: Yeah.

LINDSAY: Oh yeah. And some of them did it themselves. And some of them had someone else do it.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: You know, I mean, uh, uh, I got paddled here and there and everywhere, yonder. But some of them called me down, and ate my butt out.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: And some of them had somebody else do it.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: So, I mean different, that sort of thing. Uh, but it, I've, I've always tell a funny about Julian, Julian, I, I liked Julian was probably as much knowledgeable about the legislative process and the governorship, and the, uh, not the governorship, but the budget as anybody. Of course, he came up during the legislature and this sort of thing. And, uh, back in the old days--[telephone rings]--which you're not familiar with-- -----------(??)----------- drawn up, you know.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: [telephone rings] Uh, well, we'd sit at our desks, and draw them up. And so I had a fellow, I won't mention his name(??) but had a fellow wanted to amend the bill. And, uh, uh, I said, "All right, I'll help you because I don't like the bill either." So, uh, uh, it was bill that affected agriculture. So I sat down there and drew up about a six-, eight-page amendment. And he filed it, I, my name was never on it. And so, uh, uh, he filed it and then, it wasn't long, I think the, the next day the governor called him. And he says, "I've got to go down and see the governor." I said, "All right you, SOB. Keep me out of it. I drew the amendments, but that's, you wanted it." "All right, no, I'm not gonna tell, I'm not gonna tell." And so about, about thirty minutes later, there's a, one of the governor's secretaries was a very 01:01:00attractive young lady, standing beside my desk, and --------(??)----- --- said that Governor Carroll, "The governor wants to see you." (both laugh) And I said, "What's the governor want?" Says, "The governor wants," that's all she ever said was, "The governor wants," of course you knew this, you know.

HERDMAN: (laughs) Right.

LINDSAY: "The governor wants to see you," And I said, "Well, I'm busy." "The governor says he wants to see you now." I said, "Okay," so I went down there and, and down on first floor. Went in there and walked in there and he looked at me, I could tell it, of course we'd had always been, been pretty good friends. He looked at me and says, "I read your amendment." I said, "Governor, I don't know what you're talking about." (both laugh) He said, "Don't hand me that," blah, blah, blah. He says, "I like it. Would you make a few changes in it?" (laughs) And, and I said, "Well," I said, "It's his amendment." He said "I know whose amendment it is, I know whose amendment it is. Don't get." He says, "Will you make?" I said, "Yeah, I don't care." And so, we made a few amendments and then we went, but, but that was, you know, it, you always got about half-scared when the governor wants to see you. (both laugh) But he went down there and he, he tried to put on a stern face, and then he started laughing, and said, "I like it." So we made 01:02:00some changes and that sort of thing, but that's, that's the type of situation you learn.

HERDMAN: Yep.

LINDSAY: We had a, uh, I had a roommate one time who was, uh, uh, Herbie Deskins, I'll tell you his name. Uh, and he had been fighting a bill, tooth and nail, and, uh, uh, uh, was successful in defeating the bill. And it was a bill that the governor was very interested in. Uh, and so Herbie got a call to go down and see the governor. And, uh, uh, when he came back up, he made a motion to put the bill back on orders of the day, because he was for it, it was a good bill, and he wanted, wanted it to pass. Now he just spent an hour just ranting and raving to defeat the bill, and then he came back up. And someone said, said, uh, asked him, back in those days, you don't call anybody by their names on the floor. "Will the gentleman from so and so, Pike tell us what changed your mind?" He says, "Well, uh, I've dropped part of 01:03:00that bill and found a missing page on the way back from the governor's office, and it had to do with projects in Pike County." (Herdman laughs) "So, Governor called down and says, 'Do you want anything in Pike County? Get off my bill and pass my bill.'"

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: He had that authority.

HERDMAN: Yep.

LINDSAY: So those things like that happened.

HERDMAN: How much did--

LINDSAY: --a lot of stories.

HERDMAN: How much did national politics affect state politics?

LINDSAY: Very little.

HERDMAN: Really. You felt like it was separated?

LINDSAY: Pretty much so, now today it's getting, uh, more so.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: It's getting more so today. Uh, but, uh, uh, uh, I'd say that, uh, that's, that's, a lot of it has to do with, uh, with a religion part of it.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: You know, that's very, very big today. Of course that was, you know, had very little to do with it back then.

HERDMAN: But things like the Vietnam War that would've happened while you were serving, or, you know, the, anything that happened with--

LINDSAY: --no, I don't think so. I think, I think, uh, you're from West Virginia?

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Uh, I'm from Kentucky. Uh, I think this area tends to be supportive of, of the government involved in--

HERDMAN: --um-hm--

LINDSAY: --in, uh, uh, you know, uh, especially conflicts.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: I don't think you're gonna see anybody that's gonna jump right, I don't know of any local politician--

HERDMAN: --um-hm--

LINDSAY: --that's gonna go out and say, you know, "We don't help the boys," or this sort of thing. You just don't do that.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: And that didn't play that big of thing. You know, everybody, I, I'm not gonna say everybody liked it.

HERDMAN: Right.

LINDSAY: No, no, no, no. But they weren't willing to, uh, say that Lyndon Johnson, a Democrat, was, uh, absolutely wrong. -----------(??)

HERDMAN: Um, you ran in the seventies, and then again from '92 to present. What do you, in, in regard to changes, see, as far as the changes in race in the General Assembly, because women, women and African Americans because there would've been more later on than there were in the seventies, more diversity in the General Assembly, did you 01:05:00see a big difference with that, did it make any difference?

LINDSAY: No, I don't think so. I don't think so. I really don't. I, uh, you wouldn't know him, uh, but I sat, uh, at one time, he came to the legislature, uh, uh, uh, was a fellow by the name of Carl Hines.

HERDMAN: I interviewed Mr. Hines.

LINDSAY: You know, Carl, super, super, did he talk about being a legislator?

HERDMAN: Um-hm. Oh yeah. LINDSAY: Sat right beside him.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: And, uh, super, super fellow. And, uh, I could, uh, here he was, uh, Carl was, uh, put on the Louisville school board when they had all that sort of stuff--

HERDMAN: -- ----------(??)--

LINDSAY: --you know, he told me about all the stuff about having, uh, police protection, worried about his family, and this sort of thing. Uh, I couldn't believe that he ever got beat.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: And, uh, uh, you know, I talked to some people up there in Louisville. And you know, you know what it was? I, I, I hate to say this on tape, but they said he wasn't black enough for his district.

HERDMAN: Hm. So it's more of, a different way than you would think--

LINDSAY: --yeah, yeah--

HERDMAN: -- -----------(??)

LINDSAY: I mean, that's what people in Louisville, of course, I wouldn't think, uh, uh, Carl Hines was a nice fellow, he was a sharp fellow, he was articulate.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: And, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, I, capable and then he gets beat, and that's what they, that's what they, uh, that's what somebody from Louisville said. That's, you, you say, so there are other things then--

HERDMAN: --um-hm, other factors, yep.

LINDSAY: Yeah, other factors. But Carl and I used to have a, have a good time over there. Uh, uh, there was, uh, uh, a black lady name of a Mae Street Kidd. Have you heard about Mae Street Kidd?

HERDMAN: Um-hm, a little bit.

LINDSAY: Uh, she was a pistol. Mae was a, a, was just a, uh, there is all kinds of funny stories that go around but, but, uh, uh, Mae was, 01:07:00uh, we had a bill, and I can't even remember what it was, and Carl was sitting beside me there. And, uh, uh, Mae just got up and raked that bill, just talked against it, and just, just, you know, just, just terrible bill, terrible, taking away from the people, and this sort of thing, and that sort of thing. And, you know, I, to me, it didn't make a whole bunch, a great big thing one way or the other, you know. And Carl and I was sitting over there and it came time for the vote, well, Mae had been talking against it. And then she voted for it. And, uh, uh, I said, "Carl," I said, "Carl, did you see what happened there?" He said, "Yeah." I said, "After a while," says, "Ease over there, and, uh, see what, what changed her mind." He said, "Yeah, I'd like to know." So we were sitting there, and after a while he got up and went outside, and he came back in, you know. So he didn't walk just from here to there, you know, -----------(??). (Herdman laughs) And, uh, 01:08:00went over there, and I could see him talking to her, and he came back, and he, he was biting his lip, and he's biting his lip, you know, and I could tell. And he sat down and he never looked at me, looked straight ahead, and this sort of thing. And out of the corner of his mouth, he says, "She just remembered she had stock in that company." (both laugh) And I, I thought, I thought we were going to die. Both of us sitting there, biting our lips, to try to keep, to keep from laughing, so.

HERDMAN: Oh, that's great.

LINDSAY: And so that's a funny thing. (both laugh)

HERDMAN: All right, well, let's do a little bit of, uh, looking back. Um, did, did your thinking change about any particular issue over time? For example, I've had people talk about being against seatbelts at first and then later realizing it's probably a good thing--

LINDSAY: --no(??)--

HERDMAN: --is there anything that sticks out in your mind that changed?

LINDSAY: (laughs) You know, you know, I can't say, I can't say that, because, uh, uh, generally and, and if you talked to people that knew me up there, and generally I voted my own mind, I voted what, what I 01:09:00thought. I--

HERDMAN: --did you ever have--

LINDSAY: --I've been, I've been many a time that I've been the only red light up there on that, you know, and this sort of thing, and I've introduced bills that I, that I know, knew that weren't going to get through. But I thought they were right. I've never been a big seatbelt man. I think maybe we're becoming too civilized, I didn't vote for the, uh, uh, uh, four-wheel thing. I just, I think that is certain things that, uh, uh, that the government is parental, it's not the government.

HERDMAN: Um-hm. Did you ever have a crisis of conscious where you felt one way and you thought your constituents went another way? Or were you pretty much in tune of what they wanted?

LINDSAY: I think I was always pretty much in tune. This is, this is a basically a rural, conservative county, area.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY:

And people ask, "Well, what's your philosophy?" You know I'm sure that's a question you want -----------(??).

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: It's very simple, well, what are you gonna do on this bill, 01:10:00they say, "What are you gonna do on this bill?" My philosophy is: I'm a, uh, I'm a fiscal conservative and a social moderate.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: You show me the legislation and I can pretty well told you, tell you right quick what's my position going to be on it.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: And you can go back and check my record, and you won't find me passing on very many, in very many votes. I either voted for them or I vote against them.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: I don't go run and hide behind it. Oh, I have. (Herdman laughs) But, uh, uh, generally nothing of great consequence.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: You know, sometimes if, if, if you avoid a fight you avoid a fight.

HERDMAN: So why have you decided not to run this year, or--

LINDSAY: --I got beat--

HERDMAN: --or are you running--you did get defeated.

LINDSAY: Yeah.

HERDMAN: Okay, when were you defeated?

LINDSAY: January, in May.

HERDMAN: In May, and by whom?

LINDSAY: Uh, uh, David Watkins, a doctor.

HERDMAN: Republican?

LINDSAY: No, Democrat.

HERDMAN: Oh, it was in the primary?

LINDSAY: Yeah, in the primary.

HERDMAN: Um, what do you think were the main issues?

LINDSAY: Oh, that's, that's, that's a very difficult thing. I've heard a lot of things. Uh, uh, I haven't found anybody who didn't vote for me. (Herdman laughs) Uh, the problem, the problem was, he was, he was very much against, uh, uh, medical malpractice, limiting judgments, and that sort of thing. Uh, and that wasn't selling good. So, uh, uh, he got out and was selling medical costs.

HERDMAN: Hm.

LINDSAY: Well, everybody, you know, you know, I'll do something about the medical costs. Plus the fact that, uh, I got caught, which again you can see it, uh, uh, I say a week, ten days before the election, I could kinda get it, nobody, wasn't any great wind, but there was a, there was a great thing; it was time for a change.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Not just in my race, but in, uh, uh, the mayor, a first term 01:12:00mayor, they're forming a race. He finished a poor third. He didn't get twenty, about 20 percent of the vote.

HERDMAN: Hm.

LINDSAY: And, uh, they were all out campaigning, "It's time for a change." The sheriff got turned out. Uh, gonna have three new magistrates, you know, so it was that type of situation.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: And, uh, uh, I think most of, uh, uh, I think that one of the mayoralty candidates, they interviewed him after it was over with, asking him what the, what the situation was, and he said, "Well, you know, we were just out campaigning, and they were doing it. 'It's time for a change,'" and he says, "It look like we caught some other people in it," and I think that--

HERDMAN: --um-hm--

LINDSAY: --when it gets right down, uh, uh, uh, to it, that probably contributed more than anything. Plus the fact, plus the fact, honey, uh, that you spend as much time up there as I did, and you, uh, take tough positions, you know, you don't get whole ----------(??) 01:13:00groundswell(??) of people keeping, but all the, there's people here, that you're, you're not, you're not making happy.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: You know, I've always, my position has been, uh, uh, I never would vote for a, uh, uh, anti-abortion bill that didn't provide for the, for the health of a, the mother.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: The child, rape, incest, and things like that. I just, I never felt like it was fair just to have a cart blanche.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Uh, well, a lot of people don't care; they just want to a cart --------(??), you get it(??).

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: The same thing with, uh, stem cell research, and things like that, uh. So, yeah, you know, these, uh, these things, uh, creep in there that, uh--

HERDMAN: --would you say your opponent was more conservative than you, or how, how would your opponent compare?

LINDSAY: I don't know what he is.

HERDMAN: Really, you didn't, no debate or any--

LINDSAY: --no, no, well, we did but he never, you know, I mean, it was just, that's what it was. In fact he did, and we had several debates, and he told everybody what a great job I had done.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: And I was gonna come up there and help him. (Herdman laughs) But no, that's right; you can go out there and you can ask anybody on the street. And he says, "Oh, he's done a great job." But, uh, uh, I think that it was just, it was just more than anything else a time for a change.

HERDMAN: And so, what's next--

LINDSAY: --because in fact he said, "I agree with him on these things." (both laugh) But it was, it was a medical--

HERDMAN: --um-hm--

LINDSAY: --medical, not medical malpractice costs, but medical costs. And all the doctors were, and so, every patient that came in, you know, got a, got a, a Vote for David card.

HERDMAN: Um-hm, yep. So, will you just continue in your practice here once you're done?

LINDSAY: Oh yeah.

HERDMAN: Yep.

LINDSAY: Hey, it's my living. And I enjoy it, Hell, I'm pugnacious enough-- oh, and he said I was too old.

HERDMAN: He did? Well anyway. (both laugh) So, if you had it to do over 01:15:00again, would you do it? Are you, do you feel like this has been--

LINDSAY: --would I do what--

HERDMAN: --a positive thing? Um, run in 1969 and then again in the General Assembly?

LINDSAY: Oh, I think, it's, it's, it's great.

HERDMAN: Yep.

LINDSAY: It's great; it's been a tremendous experience--

HERDMAN: --it's been many years in your life. I mean, that's a--

LINDSAY: --oh yeah--

HERDMAN: --that's a big part of your life--

LINDSAY: --oh yeah, oh yeah. And I, and I'm, I'm contentious enough, I have a, someone says I have a bulldog personality. I, I don't, I like a good little fight, you know, a big fight if you have to. (Herdman laughs) But, uh, uh, I enjoy that. And, uh, uh, you could get in a fight at Frankfort anytime you wanted to.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: But yeah, yeah, if you'll ask people that serve with me, I, they all would tell you, and I was always upfront with them. Uh, you know, I just, it was just the way it was, and I, and I enjoyed it. I really enjoyed it. If I didn't enjoy it, I wouldn't have gone, because it costs me money.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: And that's a fact. That's a fact--

HERDMAN: --how has the salary changed over time? Probably should've asked you that earlier, but from when--

LINDSAY: --boy, I wish I could tell you. I think, when I started you 01:16:00got fifty dollars a day. And you can look it up, honey--

HERDMAN: --um-hm--

LINDSAY: --I don't know I never paid that much attention to it because I didn't go for that.

HERDMAN: Right. (laughs)

LINDSAY: I think I got fifty dollars a day. And, uh, a salary of about a fifty dollars a day expenses.

HERDMAN: So, overall does it feel like you've gotten more, in more recent times, have you got ----------- inflation(??)?

LINDSAY: Oh, yeah, well, what I'm getting now, I think, I get, uh, uh, we're kind of on a escalator, just like the, the, we get a, unless we exempt ourselves, we own that, uh, whatever the employees get.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: So I think we went up a percent and a half. I think I get $160 a day now or a $165 a day now plus, uh, uh, uh, the expenses. And I'm not even sure what the expenses even are. I really don't.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: I'm gonna say a $100 to $150.

HERDMAN: But overall not enough to cover what you spend going and time 01:17:00lost.

LINDSAY: Oh, well, you figure out, of that, that was that, the salary and expenses, you've got to make up for what you lose here and you've got to pay for running up. Well, they do pay mileage but then you've got to pay for your room and board up there, you know. Uh, Aunt Susie don't feed you up there.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: Now back in the old days, that's what got a lot of people in trouble; the lobbyists were feeding.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: There were lobbyists up there(??), you know, uh, uh, uh, they never, never, never with me, but I, which I thought was, was, I was just absolutely surprised when I went back up there in the nineties that there were so little legislation, you just had credit cards, just sign the lobbyist name.

HERDMAN: Hm. That's very close to cash changing hands, which is what eventually brought the system in, to be reformed.

LINDSAY: Well, yeah, yeah, well, uh, yeah, that and, uh, uh, uh, there was, uh--

HERDMAN: --I mean, at that time food and drink and gifts were allowed but cash wasn't, but a credit card would be kinda very close--

LINDSAY: --yeah, that would, you know, that, I mean, but they were buying their meals with it, you know.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: What's the difference between that and a, and a lobbyist sitting there paying for it, you know.

HERDMAN: Yeah.

LINDSAY: I mean, they were, I mean, it was, it was for, that's what I understand. I never saw it. I never had one. But that's, uh, uh, they would say, "So and so's got so and so's credit card." I said, "What?" (Herdman laughs) You know. Which see, I came up right after BOPTROT.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: I came up right after BOPTROT.

HERDMAN: Yeah, that, uh, definitely made a change, so.

LINDSAY: Yes.

HERDMAN: All right, well, what advice would you give anyone considering going into politics? What have you learned from--

LINDSAY: --uh--

HERDMAN: --your long and distinguished career?

LINDSAY: Take a enema. (both laugh) Or a laxative. (both laugh) Uh, oh, you know, it's hard. It's hard, that's a hard question. I think we need more people involved in, of course, you look out here, people who don't vote, they're not, they don't, can't get people to run for office, and everything(??). But, uh, uh, and I don't think that's, uh, necessarily I think the press has so much to do with, uh, the, 01:19:00uh, status.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: And the attitude people have about politics today, because you ever seen anything neg-, uh, more negative than, you can't pick up the Courier-Journal or the Herald-Leader that, that--(smacks hands)--

HERDMAN: --um-hm--

LINDSAY: --got you! And I think that's, uh, and somebody said the other day that's, that's, uh, uh, that, uh, the, the press has a, has a totally "gotcha" mentality. And, uh, uh, I think that discourages people. I think it discourages them from voting, because they, they, they finally convinced everybody that everybody's a crook.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: So, you know, which crook you gonna vote for? I think that's, that's one of, one of, and, and, and, and I'll have to say this, I've been to places and to meetings that I've read about in the press the next day, and, and, and I said, "Wait a minute; that didn't happen." I used to, used to get lots and lots of calls from people, newspaper 01:20:00people. And had one, uh, uh, either the end of June or the first part of July called me up and wanted to ask me questions because I'm chairman, I was chairman of the judiciary committee, and, and, uh, always, they always felt like I was a good, good source for a quote or something. And he was talking and I said, "No, I can't say that. No, no, I, I, I think that, I think that," blah, blah, blah. And I just, I couldn't satisfy him for the question he was asking. He didn't want an answer; he didn't want me to, he wanted me to say something, so he could have a source.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: He'd already written a damn story because I saw it in the paper the next day.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: But he didn't have anybody to say--

HERDMAN: --quote or--

LINDSAY: --yeah, and that, to me, that's, that's part of the problem.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

LINDSAY: That's the problem. Press, and I, I, I think that's bad on politics in general, in Henderson, Kentucky, and the nation, is that 01:21:00we've stopped reporting the news; we're, we're creating and making the news, for what it's worth.

HERDMAN: Anything else you would like to add?

LINDSAY: No, no, no.

HERDMAN: Well, thank you so much.

LINDSAY: Are you going to send me a copy?

HERDMAN: Oh, you will get a copy. Thank you so much.

[End of interview.]