Interview with Carl W. Lively, October 27, 2006

KLEE: The following is an unrehearsed interview for the University of Kentucky Oral History Program. Uh, I am John Klee, and I'm interviewing Carl Lively. And we're at his home, uh, in Ashland, Kentucky. Uh, it is October 27, 2006. Mr. Lively, thank you for talking to me. Uh, how did you first get associated with Ashland Community College? How did you get the job and what's your background?

LIVELY: I got the job when Dr. Goodpaster called, called me from at cou-, at, up at Court Street and Westmoreland in West Virginia.

KLEE: I see.

LIVELY: Uh, I, he had been to several of our college career days at, 00:01:00from Vinson High School.

KLEE: Um-hm. Now you were at Vinson High School then?

LIVELY: Yes. I, I, no, no, I was not at Vinson High School when he call, called me. I, I was at the, at the, county office. I was a su-, one of the su-, three supervisors in, in Wayne County.

KLEE: Um-hm. And how did he know you? Did, uh, had you applied for a position, or--?

LIVELY: No. I had not applied for a position. He saw me at the college career days at, at back at Vinson. I came back there for one or more of the--each, they had them each, each year.

KLEE: And what was he looking for? What was, what was the position?

LIVELY: Uh, he was looking for, at that time, a counselor.

KLEE: Um-hm. And so you came to the, uh, to Ashland. Had you been to Ashland before and what was your background on community colleges?

LIVELY: The only background I had was in 1964 I attended a, I guess, it EPDA [Education Professions Development Act] then--uh, eight-week workshop where my, where I received nine hours of credit, of graduate credit-- uh, and I heard about the community colleges there. And, in fact, at that time, uh, Hopkinsville was open, and I was asked if I 00:03:00was interested.

KLEE: Oh, really. Um-hm. Uh, so was Ashland brand new to the system at that point?

LIVELY: (pause) Uh, in '64, uh, Ashland was brand new to the system in 1964.

KLEE: Um-hm. And what was, what was the college like then? You came to Ashland as a counselor. Is that correct?

LIVELY: But I--yes, I came as a counselor, but I came in nineteen and sixty-seven.

KLEE: Yes, sir.

LIVELY: Uh, and at that time, it was in the old Ashland Junior College building which was, uh, really a--had been a church, and it was a, had 00:04:00a gym in the basement where Be-, Bevo, uh, Francis, uh, uh, scored a hundred and some points.

KLEE: Oh, is that right? (laughs)

LIVELY: Which, uh, set a national record at that time. From, he was from, uh, one of the, Rio Grande College in Ohio, and that was Ashland College back at that time, city college.

KLEE: Um-hm. So it had had a basketball team at one time?

LIVELY: Yes.

KLEE: Um-hm.

LIVELY: Ari (??), I think Ari Shanton (??) was the, was the coach at that time. I'm not sure. I'm not, I'm not really sure of that.

KLEE: Right. So were, were they still doing some of those activities? Was there a team when you first started working there?

LIVELY: No. We had not, they had not started a team when I started 00:05:00in '67.

KLEE: Now how do you--are you aware of how long Dr. Goodpaster had been there at that point?

LIVELY: I understood that he wa-, was in Ashland in 1961. I'm not--

KLEE: Right.

LIVELY: I, uh, am, I don't know what his position was at that time, uh, but it was in education--

KLEE: Right.

LIVELY: --in some way.

KLEE: Now who were, who were some of the people you worked with? You mentioned Dr. Goodpaster. Tell me what kind of person he was?

LIVELY: Well, he was a outgoing pe-, person and generally a friendly person, and, uh, I think that was one of the things, and he did go out to some schools when he became director of the community college 00:06:00in '64. He, he went out to various schools, and that was a re-,--and particularly at career days or something of that na-, nature, and that's where I first met him was at, uh, at the Vinson High School career days.

KLEE: Right. So he was even going over into West Virginia to recruit?

LIVELY: Wh-, he was going over--well, in a sense, yes, I guess so.

KLEE: (laughs) Yeah.

LIVELY: And that, of course, that was pretty close to Marshall at that time. (laughs)

KLEE: Right. Um-hm. Um, and he was also, uh, your boss. What kind of boss was he for you?

LIVELY: Well, in most instances we worked, worked more or less together. Uh, I would think that most of the assignments that were given to 00:07:00me were ones that could or should be given to, well, not, more to an assistant which I became the following year after I was there a year as counselor.

KLEE: So you, you became what then after, after the counselor job?

LIVELY: Uh, assistant director. I mean, there were--he was director of the college.

KLEE: Right.

LIVELY: And I became assistant director, uh, maybe--I want to say it was '68. It might have been in '69.

KLEE: Um-hm.

LIVELY: Uh, because the first assistant director he had was Dr. John Smith who became the director of Louisville, uh, Community College.

KLEE: I see. Um-hm. Now your--as assistant director was your, was 00:08:00your, what was your area of responsibility?

LIVELY: Well, a little bit of everything. I, primarily I was still counselor, and the first year I was there I was also assigned--they divided up, uh, an education class--and I was, uh, assigned to teach this ed-, this, uh, basic education class of seventy-five people that I had. (Klee laughs) And that was at noon hour, and at one o'clock, everyone was lined up to, to see me and I did not--(laughs)--get lunch.

KLEE: Right. Uh, were you also, was your, uh, field more the financial side of things, uh, in addition to the teaching and the counseling or were you on the academic side?

LIVELY: It was more on the academics side. I, I knew about the financial, some of the financial things, and particularly I was concerned about the tuition versus the tuition that's at other schools that I could go to, to.

KLEE: So, uh, as the assistant director, then, were you in charge of, of getting schedules done, hiring instructors?

LIVELY: Uh, no. The hiring of instructors was still Dr. Goodpaster's--

KLEE: I see.

LIVELY: --position, but, uh, the, working with the division chairs--

KLEE: I see.

LIVELY: I helped develop the schedule.

KLEE: Okay.

LIVELY: And I had a great deal of responsibility with reaching out to other schools, and in fact, uh, Jim Harless or James Harless, he was, uh, director of admissions or maybe assistant director at that time at Marshall--uh, he and I worked out the first academic, uh--what would you call it?

KLEE: Reciprocal, I think. Wasn't it?

LIVELY: Academic reciprocal. Not, not financial. This--

KLEE: Oh, okay. It was, it was transferability then?

LIVELY: Academic transferability. Because one of the things that was 00:11:00faced us from the beginning was not only the other schools, other colleges such as a Ohio University, Portsmouth or Ironton and Marshall and different ones, uh, Morehead, and even UK was the fact, that, uh, was the fact that of trying to meet this transferability agreement. And this was a--I mean, transf-, I mean, transferability of our courses, courses. See, at that time, we were accredited through, in fact, we were with the University of Kentucky; not self-accredited. We 00:12:00did that in the--I'm not cer-, --in 1970 or something like that.

KLEE: Right. Um-hm.

LIVELY: But, uh, an illustration in which you may, UK may not even like was that s-, uh, there was a feeling that the students and the classes that they had at Ashland Community College was not up to the same standards as, as UK. Well, I had to battle that, and one illustration I'll give you is this; uh, accounting.

KLEE: Yes, sir.

LIVELY: Okay. It was a second year course at University of Kentucky. 00:13:00All right. Many people who came to the ACC to take a course, particularly those from Armco Steel and businesses around, they were just taking the accounting course, and this may be a, be one of the first courses that they had, had taken.

KLEE: Yes, sir.

LIVELY: Well, uh, I had to thrash this out with the, the div-, division chairman and so on at the University of Kentucky to make that when they decided to go down there to make those co-, --

KLEE: Count. Um-hm.

LIVELY: Count. And we did so.

KLEE: So, uh, your job necessitated going to Lexington occasionally?

LIVELY: Oh, very, very frequently. I went to Lexington with the station wagon, but, uh, I always had a load of, of other things to pick up 00:14:00besides the, the work that I had to do. I'm in the--they'd want me to pick up various things, uh, there, and the, the old building was on--I can't think of that--but it was on the corner of--you probably know.

KLEE: It was Breckinridge, wasn't it? Was that the name of the building you're thinking about or--

LIVELY: It was, as I recall, it was as you, you come out toward UK, it was down here, and it was, it was a corner building.

KLEE: Okay.

LIVELY: Was the headquarters of the community college system. Well, I would pick up additional material there, and that's where I'd lo-, uh, got back. We did not have a lot of catalogs and things of this nature at--

KLEE: Right.

LIVELY: --at ACC, and that's where I got those UK catalogs and started 00:15:00work. I started working with various members of, or chairmen of th-, various departments at University of Kentucky to get them to really see that we were as, as qualified as--

KLEE: And did, uh, did students then, um, because of your work, um, transfer to UK on, uh, very often?

LIVELY: There were several that transferred to UK with a, with considerable credits, but there would be some that would be coming back and say that they--this course or that--and I would have to get on the phone and get with the ch-, division chairman or the chairman of that department--

KLEE: At UK? Um-hm.

LIVELY: --at UK and talk with 'em and explain to them.

KLEE: Yeah. And you mentioned, uh, your work with, uh, with Marshall. 00:16:00How was the relationship there as far as transfer for students?

LIVELY: Oh, uh, it was very--of course, I'm a Marshall graduate--but, it, uh, Jim Harless and I were--had been friends, uh, since we were at, at an earlier institute, and we worked hand in glove to, to say, okay, uh, Accounting 201 here is the same as accounting whatever this was worked. That's where we first developed the reciprocity agreement.

KLEE: Right. And so how, uh, wo-, would you say, then, that, uh, for transfer students Marshall was maybe the first choice for Ashland students?

LIVELY: Uh, I would say that maybe more, more, more would, uh, go up to 00:17:00Marshall, but there was also some--when Morehead would put a class into the area--

KLEE: Right.

LIVELY: --some would go to that and some would go--be from across the river and would go to, uh, Ohio U.

KLEE: Okay. There was an Ohio University branch there?

LIVELY: Branch there, I mean, at, at Ironton--

KLEE: Yes, sir.

LIVELY: --or Portsmouth, and it all depended on, a lot on the location of where the student lived because if they lived toward Grayson and so on, they might go to UK or Morehead.

KLEE: Yes, sir. Um-hm. Uh, tell me about some of the earlier people that were at the beginning there when, when the college was kind of, uh, getting on its feet as part of the University of Kentucky system. Uh, who, who were some of the other people you worked with; early faculty members or--

LIVELY: Oh, the, uh, well, the faculty members were, well, of course, Opal Conley stands out as the top one because she almost had both, uh, a Ph.D. and an M.D. on, and she taught all of the advanced courses and received the nurses that were coming from King's Daughter at the time.

KLEE: I see.

LIVELY: And--

KLEE: That program started when you were first there--

LIVELY: The--

KLEE: --or did that come a little bit later?

LIVELY: The--

KLEE: Nursing program.

LIVELY: Well, the nursing program--well, let me explain.

KLEE: Okay.

LIVELY: Uh, the nursing program was King's Daughters, and, uh, maybe in '68, uh, was, uh, Dr. Goodpaster could not go and he se-, sent me to 00:19:00help with the se-, selection.

KLEE: Yes, sir.

LIVELY: And after that for a couple of years or so, whatever it was, I then was the one, representative that would, uh, help vote with, along with the nurses for that. Then--

KLEE: You're talking about on that committee, you're talking about, to admit students?

LIVELY: Um-hm. To admit--to select the ones that, uh, were being admitted

KLEE: --to the program--

LIVELY: --to the nursing program. And it was King's Daughters program and then, uh, King's Daughters said it was, uh--well, they felt it was costing them, and they were very willing to transfer the program to ACC at the time and, uh, pay, pay for it, for I think, one or two years; 00:20:00about two years, two years. And so it was accepted, and I continued to be one of the persons that would select the students. Uh, the chairman--I, I can't re-, --of the nursing faculty.

KLEE: Right.

LIVELY: And then we actually brought in nursing faculty, and of course they worked with King's Daughters and various facilities around, I mean, for their, uh, clinical experiences.

KLEE: Right. Uh, nursing program very important to the college as one of its programs?

LIVELY: It was very, very important to a college, as a, as a program. Uh--

KLEE: And you mentioned Opal Conley. Was she there, uh, from the beginning?

LIVELY: She, she was there from before I, long before I was.

KLEE: I see.

LIVELY: And, uh, uh, there was two or, two or three other; George Livingston, I believe in mathematics, Robert Halliday (??) in physics, uh, maybe Jack LeRoy (??) in English and some, and some of the others.

KLEE: Yeah.

LIVELY: I, I don't remember all of 'em.

KLEE: Right. Uh, college was, was relatively small when you started?

LIVELY: Well, it was relatively small, uh, but they, they also counted, at that time, their continuing education students--

KLEE: Oh, okay.

LIVELY: --as well but they, as far as acd-, I mean, you know, taking short courses and so on and it sounded like it was larger than what it 00:22:00really was.

KLEE: Was the emphasis on transfer, uh, uh, courses at, uh, when you started?

LIVELY: Well, um, no. I don't think, of it--it was, well, it was an emphasis, uh, to be able to get a job.

KLEE: I see.

LIVELY: As we say, as I said about the accounting earlier, it was take some courses that met their job requirements wherever they were and then, as they got more education, they realized that, well, okay, well, I can get an associate's degree and, or, or can transfer to some other place and com-, complete a degree, which they had no hopes of doing 00:23:00before--

KLEE: Before they got started. So who were those companies that you were, that were some of-- people that were trying to help themselves a little bit, uh, that came to the college?

LIVELY: Well, uh, Ashland Oil was probably the largest one, and, uh, somewhere along about '68 or '69 or something like that, we had a conference and asked all these business leaders in to help find or to get jobs for our students while they were, even while they were going to school.

KLEE: Yes, sir.

LIVELY: And Ashland Oil came up with the, was, uh, doing, was, uh--they 00:24:00had a keypunch card for much of their work, and they came up with a large number of students that were hired to work of the evening , key-, doing keypunch work.

KLEE: Keypunch work, huh.

LIVELY: And, just all different ones; some that was in accounting and maybe down at Armco there might be some. Armco was, uh, a supporter. Uh, the general joke was that Armco had the highest paid janitors (both laugh) in the United States at that time.

KLEE: So that was a place that people wanted to work then, if the janitor did well? (laughs)

LIVELY: Yeah.

KLEE: Huh.

LIVELY: And they would work at night, I mean, uh, you know--

KLEE: The students.

LIVELY: --and then go to school some during the day.

KLEE: I see. Are there any individuals that stand out in your mind, 00:25:00either people at those companies or, or people in the community, that were, that you had contact with or that were important supporters of the college?

LIVELY: Well, Rex Blazer was the leader there with Ashland Oil.

KLEE: Yes, sir.

LIVELY: But all the others were, uh, just name different, different ones. Uh, Pollock's Jewelers maybe hired one or two or something like that, you know, for part-time.

KLEE: What was his name?

LIVELY: I can't think, uh, see. Hagan? I get, always get mixed up in--

KLEE: Oh, it's fine. Yeah.

LIVELY: But he hired for, uh, the jewelry--

KLEE: Oh, for the jewelry store. Okay.

LIVELY: For the jewelry store and there were just so many different ones that would come up with, uh--Mr. and Mrs. Adkins--Mrs. Adkins still 00:26:00is a great sponsor of many programs, uh, that the Paramount Arts Center has now and finances it. He had a, I think, a wholesale business of all kinds of goods, uh, that, and he would hire some. Uh, just name-- uh, there'd be one or two--

KLEE: Were there, were there some people in the community that if you needed, uh, any kind of support or wanted advice, were there people that Dr. Goodpaster or the college went to, to ask for that kind of thing or even financial support?

LIVELY: (pause) Well, we were always asking for different ones to give, 00:27:00uh, scholarships and so on and several did, but the, the odd thing about it was that the scholarships, uh, went to UK and then they had, had to come back up the, uh--

KLEE: The money had to run through UK.

LIVELY: Had to run through UK; however, one lady--and I can't think of her name now--she was the sweetest old, I mean, elderly lady that I know of. She lived right across the hill here, and I can't think of her name. But anyway, she made two or three donations of maybe as much as five thousand dollars at a time, um, and I went to her house and sat 00:28:00down with her and she said she did not want that to go through UK. She wanted it to stay at Ashland Community College.

KLEE: Right.

LIVELY: And that's when we kindly broke the thing and could keep it.

KLEE: I see.

LIVELY: Uh--

KLEE: Have your own scholarship fund, then?

LIVELY: Have our own scholarship fund that we could have, uh, because she said, just plainly said--well, she was eighty-some, I guess, at that time--she plainly said, "I want it to be at ACC."

KLEE: Right. Tell me about the physical changes of the college. You said you started in the, uh, uh, the old Ashland Junior College building which had been a church.

LIVELY: Okay. Uh, being in West Virginian I came down in '60 and came 00:29:00to, to the college. Uh, in fact, I did not know, uh, where the new building was going to be. Uh, now--

KLEE: Had they already planned that when you were employed? Was, was that under construction or--

LIVELY: Uh, they were planning the new building. It was not under construction.

KLEE: I see. Okay.

LIVELY: And many times, uh, Dr. Goodpaster would go to, to UK, uh, and, uh, they would make changes, and, uh--but anyway, I'll tell you about my--

KLEE: You were going down in '60, okay.

LIVELY: --my first experience with it.

KLEE: Okay.

LIVELY: Uh, Bob Brunner from WSAZ came down, and he wanted to interview 00:30:00us, us about the new building. Mrs. Tate was, did not want to go. She was the fi-, financial aid person.

KLEE: I see.

LIVELY: Uh, Dr. Goodpaster was gone--

KLEE: (laughs)

LIVELY: --uh, at UK for something, and so it fell to me. And I, I kn-, knew him, not real well, but I knew, I'd met him at other things. I, I said, "Well, uh, Bob, I'll, I'll go wherever, wherever it is, he." So I got into his, uh, wagon, and we came up to the top of the hill, and 00:31:00there was steel laid out there, and he, he in fact told me, uh, some of the things that was going on. So when I, when he interviewed me, I could tell him that here is this steel, here are some things and we are going to build a building for you, uh, for ACC, here on the hill.

KLEE: I see.

LIVELY: And that was the first interview we had, but then I made, well, I had acquaintance with several of the other WSAZ personalities so we got day-time, air time--half hours at different times--to talk 00:32:00about our admission, our financial aid, and our offerings and so on at different, uh, at different times during the year for, with, uh, Jerry Sanders. Do you know Jerry Sanders down at--

KLEE: Yeah.

LIVELY: He went to 27.

KLEE: Right.

LIVELY: But he co-anchored the--well, he anchored the desk when the plane crash happened and all, because all of the others were in, uh, out toward the crash. And my wife was in the hospital at the time and was in there for sixty days at the time, uh, and she said all the doors were open and everything, they were expecting someone to come and no one came.

KLEE: Gee.

LIVELY: Jerry Sanders was a, was a close, close--he co-, he anchored 00:33:00the, WSAZ, but from that I was able to get various contacts with him. He, when he, whenever he was out on the road, he always stopped at, uh, ACC, and he always asked for me to talk to him about something about ACC at the, at the time.

KLEE: That was a good contact for, uh, for the college; good, free publicity.

LIVELY: Right.

KLEE: Yeah, uh, when you went out there that first time and saw the steel laying down and talked about it on the radio, did you catch any inkling, uh, from--

LIVELY: It was on television.

KLEE: Oh, it was on television? I'm sorry. That's a television station. Uh, that's my mistake; WSAZ. And wh-, let me follow up real quick. When you were talking about the plane crash, was that the Marshall crash--

LIVELY: Right.

KLEE: --with the football team you were mentioning?

LIVELY: And all of the doctors and dentists and so on. My oral surgeon- 00:34:00-well, in fact, uh, there was student of mi-, mine, we were in classes together and close, and he was our dentist 'til he went away for oral surgery--was Glenn Preston and his wife was lost in that crash.

KLEE: Oh. It, it's a shame. Uh, when you, when you were interviewed on TV and, I guess, they were showing, uh, where the site was, did you catch any--was there a controversy over the site? Uh, I mean, did you ever catch that from townspeople or, you know, when you were talking to the TV people or whatever that it was up on the hill as opposed to--

LIVELY: Uh, um, the only thing that I ever heard was that they felt like that some of the land that's out toward the prison, out where that 00:35:00prison, uh, hospitality house is--

KLEE: I see.

LIVELY: (laughs) --where thes-, these guys and they--all that hillside and all of that area was, uh, government, but they were going to give it away. And there was some, uh, talk, uh, that they should, we should have--

KLEE: Should have gotten it?

LIVELY: We should have gotten that, that--right--which was out of, out of Ashland, and I don't know whether that would have been any better--

KLEE: Right.

LIVELY: --or not, but it wasn't any big, big thing.

KLEE: And how has that location worked out? How did it work out while you were there at the college?

LIVELY: Well--

KLEE: Did it bring more growth out this way or--

LIVELY: Uh--(pause)--I don't know. The biggest problem we had was 00:36:00parking--

KLEE: I see. (laughs)

LIVELY: --and finding parking, but that was true at the old place downtown and that was one of the arguments of those who wanted it out this way that they could have more land and more parking.

KLEE: Have they solved that problem since then or--

LIVELY: Well, they've built various park-, uh, parking lots. Of course, there's still some of them that are steep, but many, several students have said that walking up those steps to there gave them, you know, energy (Klee laughs) and also helped them with their legs.

KLEE: (laughs) Right, um, do you remember what year you went into the new building?

LIVELY: Uh--

KLEE: You started in '67. I guess I could find out over there, but, 00:37:00yeah--

LIVELY: It must have been about '70, '70,'71.

KLEE: Okay.

LIVELY: And, of course, it did not take care of all of the, of the classes at that time. There were still some classes that was, was down at the--

KLEE: Oh, was there?

LIVELY: --old building.

KLEE: How long did that last?

LIVELY: I'm really not sure. It wasn't too long 'til they had it--really it wasn't a, wasn't a second building. It was more of an addition.

KLEE: I see.

LIVELY: An add-on to the first building.

KLEE: I see. Um, tell me a little bit about what it meant to be a part of the University of Kentucky. Uh, you were part of the system. Was that--and in your position--uh, what were advantages and disadvantages 00:38:00and challenges and, and benefits? Maybe start with the advantages first if, or benefits of being associated.

LIVELY: Well, I always felt that I was part of a team. I particularly liked, uh--well, um, there was Dan Tudor (??). There was, uh, um-- well, maybe he came later--but there was, uh, Jay Houselman and, uh, Dr. Wall and, uh, Dr. Hartford. Uh, in fact we had a meeting at Jenny Wiley one time, uh, not long after I went there, and there floated--I 00:39:00don't know how it got out--but floated a rumor that I had helped write programs for Wayne County Schools, uh, in the federal, uh, things, before I was hired.

KLEE: Yes, sir.

LIVELY: Well, I--Margaret Morgan and I wrote, I guess, the first federal grant program in which we got, uh, several counselors and others to a, uh, a meeting--or maybe it was almost, uh, might have been a weekly meeting. I don't recall--of the, uh, of these people, uh, with Terry O'Banion.

KLEE: Okay.

LIVELY: And then he, uh, went to the University of Illinois, and I 00:40:00had the opportunity to go out there to work, I mean, for a year, a year but, but Dr. Goodpaster said if I did, I would drop back to a counselor rather than--

KLEE: Ah. Yeah.

LIVELY: --than being assistant director.

KLEE: Right.

LIVELY: Uh, but Dr. Hartford had had, had already approved that I could go--

KLEE: --that you could go--

LIVELY: But I, I didn't. I decided that I had--well, our son was born in '61, October of '61, so, you know, he was relatively young and I was hesitant to go out there with him.

KLEE: Now explain that to me a little bit more. You, you were at this 00:41:00meeting at Jenny Wiley at, with system people.

LIVELY: Right.

KLEE: They'd found out you'd done this, this grant work before, and so you worked on a, a new, one of the first grants in the system then?

LIVELY: Right. With, with Margaret Morgan which was--

KLEE: Margaret Morgan.

LIVELY: --Dr. Hart-, uh, Dr. Hartford's main secretary but, uh, she really more than a, more of an assistant for him.

KLEE: Right. And that was when Dr. Hartford was still, uh--

LIVELY: Right.

KLEE: --the person in charge of the system.

LIVELY: I was assistant in, maybe in the '68s.

KLEE: Um-hm. And did you bring Terry O'Banion in here to work with those counselors?

LIVELY: Uh, I don't recall where it was. I was, I was tied up with other things. I didn't know, that there were others that--

KLEE: But that's how you made the contact and had that offer?

LIVELY: Right.

KLEE: Yeah.

LIVELY: And, uh, well, I made the contact with him and everything, and that's how the, when he went to University of Illinois, that was how I was able--was offered--

KLEE: Right.

LIVELY: --a fellowship to, well, not a fellowship. One of those EPDA, NDEA [National Defense Education Act] grants or whatever--

KLEE: Right. Right. Right.

LIVELY: --it was, or to take care of it.

KLEE: Yeah. Um, did you find it an advantage to be a University of Kentucky employee? When you came here, was, was, were you a University of Kentucky employee from the beginning, in '67? So Ashland was in the system at that point?

LIVELY: Right. I was a University of Kentucky employee, same as any of the others, and a few times when we were debating about transferability 00:43:00of things I would pull that--(both laugh)--because, see, I, I was down at University of Kentucky for this, uh, EPDA counselor conference, uh, in '64 before I ever was--

KLEE: Um-hm. Yeah. Uh, since you worked on so many academic matters, how is that as part of being a system? Was, uh, was, was, did that make it more difficult? Uh, I mean, what were the advantages, disadvantages of having to work through a system in curriculum and courses?

LIVELY: (pause) Well, most of our courses were aimed, I mean--well, there were some aimed toward, other areas--but most of the courses were 00:44:00aimed the same as the University of Kentucky. And, uh, some were along about, I guess 1970, or so on, we had the first, uh, planning with, for visitation for--

KLEE: Accreditation. Um-hm.

LIVELY: --accreditation. I forget what, what year it was, but you probably know better--

KLEE: Well, ours were always around the zero year, so '69, '70, '71, probably '70 was, first one I was aware of.

LIVELY: That was the time that we were--

KLEE: Did you have a big role in those self-studies?

LIVELY: Uh, only just expressing something. The various, uh, faculty 00:45:00members at that time had a major role, and I would, might make a suggestion here or there relative to--

KLEE: Um-hm. Uh, let me go back to this system question. What were, can you--were there downsides that you, uh, to being part of the system, and do you remember any specific challenges you had? Uh, you've already mentioned several times having to go to UK and go to bat for students on transferring courses. Did you have a lot of, I mean, were there problems with, uh, red tape or anything?

LIVELY: The, the only, uh, thing that I found was the fact that, you know, the various--some departments at first--but then they started waking up to, that, that we were part of, and with the students that went to UK, they were mostly pretty, pretty sharp--

KLEE: --good students, huh--

LIVELY: --because they were, their parents were usually paying their way, you know.

KLEE: Right. So they saw from the success of the students that, uh, everything was credible, I guess?

LIVELY: Right.

KLEE: Um-hm. Tell me about, uh--hang on just a minute if you don't mind. I might have to switch this tape over. This is gonna stop on me here in a minute, so I'm gonna have to stop and turn it over. Uh, if you can spend a few more minutes with--

[Tape 1 ends; tape 2 begins.]

KLEE: This is side two of a tape, uh, by John Klee for the University of Kentucky Oral History Program, uh, with Carl Lively of, of Ashland, Kentucky. Uh, we were discussing, uh--I, I'd asked you the question how did the, uh, community accept the college? What is the, the role of 00:47:00the college in the community?

LIVELY: Well, most of them were, were proud of, of that, and also we made contact with the federal prison and we had, when it was a youth center, we had students in, in there.

KLEE: I see.

LIVELY: And, uh, later we had classes out at the prison.

KLEE: Um-hm.

LIVELY: Uh, most, most people that I talked with was proud that we had that and, uh, and wanted it to continue as part of the University of Kentucky.

KLEE: Oh, I see. Um-hm. Uh, what impact has the college had on the 00:48:00community? Can, can you see or think of ways that, uh, the college has impacted on the community? I think you mentioned maybe one of your former students that became your dentist? Is that right or--

LIVELY: No. No. He was a student that was up at Marshall.

KLEE: Oh, I see. Okay. Did you, have you, uh, have you, uh, had much contact with former students over the years?

LIVELY: Yes. I've had contact with, uh, several students, and, and all seem very, uh, very pleased with their work and with hoping, truthfully, to see the, this become a four-year--

KLEE: Right.

LIVELY: --institution.

KLEE: Yeah, uh, as you look back at your career at Ashland are there, 00:49:00are there some moments that stand out either as special challenges or, or special achievements? Let's start with the challenges. Were there times, were there things that were particularly troublesome and you had to work through?

LIVELY: (laughs) I'll tell you one that was, you may have, uh--

KLEE: No, you're fine. You're fine. Yeah. This thing over here--go ahead.

LIVELY: Uh, we had a newspaper there called Off Center. Not, it, know, before, or, uh, I became part of, uh, ACC it was called, you know, Center because there was UK courses offered there.

KLEE: Right. Ashland was a, was a, an extension center or center of UK 00:50:00before it went into the system is what you're saying?

LIVELY: Well, I was, yeah, I was--Center offered some of the classes there--

KLEE: I see.

LIVELY: --as well as the old junior college.

KLEE: Um-hm.

LIVELY: But, uh, in all--

KLEE: That's where the name came from? Off Center.

LIVELY: Off Center came from just being, uh--well, this editor, this was during the height of the Vietnam War, and this editor in light of, uh, unbeknown to, uh, most of us the, uh, I asked the Students for a Democratic Society or whatever that it, which was--very much opposed 00:51:00to different things, well, and they were to come. They had asked, and, and she said that they would be able to come for this meeting. Well, uh, we were faced--first, Dr. Goodpaster was very disturbed about it, uh, but also he had a southern conf-, visitation with another school about at the same time that they were coming. So the whole problem fell to, to me--

KLEE: (laughs) Right.

LIVELY: --so I talked to some of our veteran students, they were talking, they were, they were hot about them coming. I talked to some 00:52:00of them and I talked to some of the faculty, and I asked them, each one of them, I said, "They-- scatter the people that will come out in that little auditorium down, down in the basement there and sit down beside one of 'em," particularly the men student, I mean, men faculty and, well, women faculty, too. They were just, they were afraid something might happen. What they were afraid of was that we would refuse, and they would go to Central Park and there would be all kinds of problems from there on. Okay. When they came, uh, we let them go down there 00:53:00but at the same time, we dismissed students to go and faculty, and they lined up along with each one of these SDS, uh, people. And, uh, in fact, uh, I had a counselor who was sitting behind me, had her shoe off to ready--the one that I was sitting by--ready to whack him on the head. (both laugh) Uh, but, uh, he, this fellow that got up to speak really made a butt of himself.

KLEE: Oh, did he? (laughs)

LIVELY: Uh, and because most of the people wouldn't respond. One, one, 00:54:00Jack LeRoy, the editor of the paper, said something, but other than that, most of us just didn't respond, and I, I told 'em just not, just keep quiet.

KLEE: Right.

LIVELY: You know, I told the veterans and all because there were already veterans then.

KLEE: Sure.

LIVELY: And, well, it went over--

KLEE: Without--

LIVELY: --without a bit of trouble.

KLEE: Good. (laughs)

LIVELY: And the, the funny thing about it was that was the first time--I believe, uh, Dr. Oswald was the president at that time.

KLEE: Yes, sir.

LIVELY: And I guess that was the first and only time that I got a direct 00:55:00call from the president of the University of Kentucky. (laughs) I said, "It's over with. They're gone. They will not, they will not get students to the Central Park. Everything is okay."

KLEE: --is okay. So you rode it out and let them come and speak and just kind of, uh, tried to, uh--

LIVELY: Well, and they didn't--yeah. I talked to the veterans. The veterans were very ho-, hot when I had them, and, of course, the teachers were hot, most of them were hot, too.

KLEE: Right. Um, what about any, uh, uh, can you think of any other challenges or, uh, or events that took place that--that one, it sounds like, Dr. Goodpaster was able to go to a self-study and left it all in your hands. (laughs)

LIVELY: Well, uh, another one--but this one wasn't Dr. Goodpaster or 00:56:00anything--um, was with a student was neglecting to go to his classes. He was working at, at, uh, Armco Steel, and he was neglecting to get any work done and particularly, I think, this was in typing or so on and so forth.

KLEE: Yes, sir.

LIVELY: And he was enrolled to stay out of the draft really, I mean, in a sense, and so, uh, I called him in and talked with him and he said, "I have a new car, and I've got to pay for this car and I have to work." I said, "Yes, but you also enrolled full-time so that you will, uh, would, uh, be not eligible for drafting, being a draft pick. And, 00:57:00uh, if you do not complete this work by starting in the morning, you will be dropped from this class. The teacher has asked for you to be dropped, and you know what? I have to report that to the draft board, and you know what? Within a few weeks, you will be in service."

KLEE: Right.

LIVELY: So he performed admirably the rest of the semester. (both laugh)

KLEE: I hadn't considered that, but when you were first starting there from '67 to about '71, you would have had some students that were 00:58:00there for that reason. I mean, you know, that was maybe an extra bonus or motivation for 'em. What about special, uh, uh, any, any, accomplishments or, uh, times of, of special satisfaction through the years?

LIVELY: Well, some of the satisfactions that I had was, uh, one, I was invited to be--I forget what, which governor it was now, but anyway- -the, uh, by the governor of Kentucky to be a part of the task force to study education, and I was assigned--uh, well, there was a, a, uh, 00:59:00forty-member head committee and then there was all these committee members under each chairman at uh--well, I was assigned to study the community colleges. And, uh, I, I don't know, I guess, I don't know whether it was Singletary or who else was in there after Oswald--but anyway, Dr. Wethington and Dr. Wall was assigned to the, was sent by that, uh, to attend that committee.

KLEE: I see.

LIVELY: So it was a particular challenge to try to--there was a few on the committee that thought that the, the standards ought to be that 01:00:00the, s-, s-, the, uh, colleges sh-, should stand alone, and others thought that that was, the colleges should mesh in with particular colleges in locations.

KLEE: The regionals. Um-hm.

LIVELY: So we, we worked that out so that, uh, that everyone was in support of the, standing with the University of Kentucky at the--

KLEE: So were Dr. Wall and Dr. Wethington on the committee or you had to call them in to, uh, to, uh, give their testimony or their evidence or--

LIVELY: No. They were on--

KLEE: They were on the committee?

LIVELY: They were on the committee, and they attended the committee meetings. But here I was--(laughs)--way down on the ladder.

KLEE: Right.

LIVELY: Uh--

KLEE: But in this case, you were in charge of the committee?

LIVELY: I was in charge of the committee.

KLEE: Right. So reversed roles. They were--(laughs)--yeah.

LIVELY: Uh, but, uh, Dr. Wall was always a wonderful person. I invited him up here a couple of times to speak to the Rotary Club downtown, and I would ask him if he wanted to come over, on over to the college. He said, "No. I'll just, uh, go on back." Uh, he would pick me up, and we would go down and have lunch and he'd make a speech, and, he, he was, very wonderful at that, and he said, "I see enough of--

KLEE: (laughs) --everybody--

LIVELY: --everybody elsewhere."

KLEE: So you had a pretty good personal relationship with him?

LIVELY: Oh, I had a good personal relationship with him, Dr. Wall, and generally I had a pretty good relationship with Dr. Wethington.

KLEE: Well, he mentioned your name for, to be interviewed. He put you on the list, said I ought to try to talk to Carl Lively. So, uh--

LIVELY: That was one, that was one of the things and then from that stemmed the fact that I was on the State Advisory Committee for Vocational Education for two years.

KLEE: I see.

LIVELY: At, this lasted about two years, uh, and the other lasted about two years.

KLEE: Hmm. So both of those stand out as, uh--

LIVELY: Important.

KLEE: --important things. Yeah. When, when some of the local industry began to decline some here--uh, I'm thinking of Ashland Oil, for example--did the college, did the college's role become more important? I mean, as an employer or, or any other way?

LIVELY: Well, I think that the, uh, as we went along, why, there were 01:03:00more students coming in, more mature students coming in and getting more education.

KLEE: Um-hm. And tell me about the shift towards more two-year technical education. Were you at the center of that? Uh, when did that trend pick up? Offering more programs like nursing and--

LIVELY: Well, I guess nursing was the major one, uh, and it moved up to eighty-four members per, per year.

KLEE: Per class. Gee. That's a big class. Yeah.

LIVELY: So that was, uh--and again, I was, was challenged in, in a way 01:04:00because I became the, uh, one who was kind the, the guardian of these students.

KLEE: Right. And, of course, that's a very important--that's, that's life and death to them getting into the program and getting through the program.

LIVELY: Right. Getting through the program. And, uh, I can recall one instance, I, I think that was very, very important which didn't sit well with, with the nurses at the time--(laughs).

KLEE: I see.

LIVELY: Uh, with one nurse missed one question on a test, and she was going to be knocked out of the program or, mis-, because of--

KLEE: Brought her score down that--

LIVELY: Brought her score down. Well, she came to me, and it was on former college and calculations and some-, something. Well, I told her, of course, I would be glad to sit in, but I, I would suggest that she get, uh, one of the math teachers to be really her presenter, go over that and present her, and I believe it was Robert Scott was the one. Uh, and when we had, we had a, a J, J Board which was made up of five boys and five girls to pass on it first.

KLEE: Right.

LIVELY: And, well, they went ahead. Of course, I si-, I was only 01:06:00sitting in, uh, and Bob Scott had taken that and had shown that the, uh, question as it was phrased had three different answers and one of the answers that the student gave was correct.

KLEE: Correct. Um-hm.

LIVELY: And that brought the faculty around to studying more closely the tests that they were giving.

KLEE: Sure. Did that student eventually graduate, then?

LIVELY: That student eventually graduated, but it didn't do much. (laughs)

KLEE: (laughs)

LIVELY: (laughs) But he did for a while.

KLEE: That J Board, that was the Judicial Board of Students?

LIVELY: Right.

KLEE: Okay. Uh, I'm, I'm, I've spent a lot of your time, and I sure appreciate it. Uh, I was gonna to ask you just a couple more things. First, are there some people around that you think I should interview for this, uh, for this project here in reference to Ashland? The beginnings of the college? The early years?

LIVELY: (pause) Well, of course, Opal Conley is, is, is one, but she, you know, she's gone to live--handicapped now and in a wheelchair, and only gets out with her daughter.

KLEE: I see.

LIVELY: She, uh, would be one. Uh--

KLEE: Is Mrs. Goodpaster in the area?

LIVELY: Mrs. Goodpaster is, I, as I said, is in the area. Uh--(pause)- -thinking of some other. Uh, I think--well, he wasn't in at, really at the beginning, but I, he was in there as a--Jim Miller, uh, who's still with the college, I think, would be a possibility. Danny Bailey, I don't know whether you've heard of him. He's--

KLEE: I think the name's been given to me. Um-hm.

LIVELY: Uh, he's been with the, the college for a long period of time. He worked under me for a period of time in the--

KLEE: I see.

LIVELY: Uh--(pause)--who else? Uh--

KLEE: Are there any questions that, uh, I didn't ask you that I should have or I should ask these other people about the college and the system and--

LIVELY: (pause) Well, I want, uh, to say this. I think that the system had, while it was an excellent system, and it was, it had to be a, I mean, there had to be a lot of things as we were growing.

KLEE: Yes, sir.

LIVELY: And I feel like it was, that, uh, they made a great growth, uh, 01:10:00and I have some mixed feelings about the joint thing but I also see the advantages, too. The only thing that I don't see is the, the distance between the two parts if they have to, as long as they can keep the students.

KLEE: Yeah. Getting back--you're talking about the technical school and technical college and the, and the community college after the merger?

LIVELY: Right.

KLEE: Yeah.

LIVELY: Uh, and I'm sure, sure that's, uh--the only other thing that I would see would be a disadvantage, but I think that, uh, we had--uh, Dr. Goodpaster and Charlie Chattin would kindly fight like dogs and 01:11:00cats--(laughs)--but, uh, we had a really good relationship with, uh, most all the people at, with the vocational technical. If they saw someone that could come our way, okay, and if we saw someone who would be a good addition to their program, I'd send, send them out there.

KLEE: Who was the director at the, or whatever--I don't know what office they served--at the technical college that you mentioned.

LIVELY: Charlie Chattin was the head of the--

KLEE: Charlie Chattin?

LIVELY: Um-hm.

KLEE: Hmm. Okay.

LIVELY: Now, I don't know whether he's still alive or not.

KLEE: And how long did you stay with the college?

LIVELY: Well, I was with them, them for twenty-five years.

KLEE: Okay. Yeah.

LIVELY: And after I retired from the college, I taught a class part-time 01:12:00on-, for two or three times, but then they didn't, it was downtown and I didn't get to have the students. So they asked me instead for the same pay as the class, plus expenses, would I go up in West Virginia and, uh, talk to some of 'em and, and not talk to the students. I, I decided not to talk to the students but talk to the principals and counselors which I found out was one of the blocks we had for not more coming. The principals and, uh, counselors were sending their student, their own students down here because it was cheaper than Marshall, 01:13:00but they were not telling it to the group at large. Well, I, uh, Dr. Newberry was the president of ACC at that time, and, uh, they had, uh, a considerable increase, I think, about 27 percent increase in West Virginia students coming down there after I had been up there. So they, uh, he at least seemed to give me credit for doing that, uh, because I, I tackled the principals.

KLEE: The administrators.

LIVELY: Administrators. And I said, "Listen, you need to get this out," --

KLEE: Right.

LIVELY: --and everything so--

KLEE: It worked.

LIVELY: Worked.

KLEE: Why, I, I sure appreciate you talking to me today.

LIVELY: Well, I, I guess I could talk real long, but I, I feel my, I feel that my twenty-five years was, was worthwhile. And also during that period of time or part of that time, I taught, I taught one night a week over at Ohio University at Ironton, and I knew those people very well. And I would like this to go on the record.

KLEE: Sure.

LIVELY: Uh, Bill Dingus, an, was the, uh, off-, office over there, and we worked very closely together to get students who needed classes over 01:15:00there because they could offer some upper division classes and, uh, he would work very closely with getting students to come over here, here. So it was a very close, joint relationship, and I felt like, I mean, and I was welcomed over there as far as teaching one night a week over there for twenty-five years--twenty-four years.

KLEE: Is that right? And did, do you think the teaching here and there, uh, when you did it, did that help you in your, when you were working with students?

LIVELY: Yes. I think it, I think it did.

KLEE: Um-hm.

LIVELY: And going out to the vocational school and, uh, having lunch and then, uh, I would talk with some of the, uh, teachers out there and go 01:16:00visit some of the departments, and I, I think that helped a lot, too.

KLEE: Yeah. Sure, it did. Okay. Why, thank you very much. I appreciate it.

LIVELY: Thank you.

[End of interview.]