FOSL: --testing, testing.
[Pause in recording.]
BRADEN: [noise]--about two generations, but two jumps, me to her, to herto Mary Pogue, um, and she, and she remembers her, Mary Pogue, sitting there in a rocker or something, keeping her dress and then, um, that's all she remembers--
BRADEN: ----------(??)----------. But she would talk about that inthose days remember. 'Cause I remember--I don't remember much of the Civil War stories, except she hated Yankees. (laughs) So she always voted Democrat 'cause the Yankees she figured were, you know, the Republicans or something. But, um--
FOSL: Yeah, I'm sure she hated Republicans, too, didn't she?
BRADEN: Oh, she hated Republicans. But mainly 'cause they wereidentified as Yankees. And, um, she, uh, but we'd go out on Sunday and she would give us ice cream. I remember that. I always looked forward to that. And sometimes she'd give us watermelon or something. And she always had cottage cheese and I hated cottage cheese, and I ate it all the time and ----------(??) (Fosl laughs). But, um, but Mother 00:01:00would go every morning. And I may have told you this before, too, Nana would, cause she would have never gotten over her sort of being the daughter-in-law who wasn't accepted and--
BRADEN: --that she never let her have her son and all of that. Andshe said, standing looking out the window, "Why wasn't Mother back to lunch? Why was she late?" And all that. "Lunch was ready." ---------- (??)----------
BRADEN: Well, back then, you set out to lunch every day, you know.You'd just grab a sandwich like most--(laughs)--civilized people do.
BRADEN: Sat down for lunch and Mother wouldn't be back and, um, andshe'd, and she said one time something about, well, you know, she took her husband away from her, now she was trying to take her daughter away from her. And I told Mother that and Mother said, "Oh, she shouldn't have been telling you those sort of things." (laughs)
BRADEN: So, but she'd do that. And Mother, and Mother didn'tparticularly want to go either. I think, and Mother was great (??) on family duty and these were things you had to do. And, and, and my aunt, Auntie was the same way. Now Auntie didn't, now she didn't spend as much time there. But when, like, she, we went for the whole 00:02:00summer, they might come for three weeks or something like that. But they always, they'd get in and they, and Mother and my, her sister, Virginia, really were pretty good friends. And stayed friends, I think. And they, even when they were older, they went to Europe together, and Virginia had a lot more money than my family 'cause her husband had gotten kind of rich, very rich really.
FOSL: When you say older, you mean like after the children had grown?
BRADEN: Um-hm. Well, I, when they were older. Like, when--
BRADEN: --my parents were in their seventies, I guess, they took a tripto [noise] Europe. They took Beth to Europe when she was about ten, and with Auntie and Auntie's husband had, had died and she was very active then and she, stuff, she had really, I think, had Alzheimer's then. She--
BRADEN: --I don't think they called it that. But she just really kindof lost her, she, her memory, lost it, she got kind of giddy, silly, 00:03:00but she would, they had a lot more social life than my parents. She, they also had a good bit of money. But she, she would buy things for me. She bought my first evening dress and bought me a fur cape or something and stuff like that. Spent a lot of money. But I think she- -(laughs)--Mother said after Auntie died, she said, "I don't know why I didn't ask Virginia to leave me some money." (Fosl laughs) I said, "I, I, she, she, I, she'd, I know she'd a done it. Now why didn't I think to ask her--(laughs)--to leave me some money?"
FOSL: (laughs) Oh no.
BRADEN: But that's the kind of, but she, but she, they would come. Sothey would enjoy visiting each other, you know. And they'd be sitting there talking. And they'd just gotten in that evening or something, or she'd gotten in, the phone would ring. She'd say, "Oh, Mammy Crabb calling," 'cause--
BRADEN: --she was mad you hadn't called yet. And after Mammy Crabb diedit was some years later the phone rang when they were just there for, for the first time and she, and they, she said, "Oh, Mammy Crabb." I mean, she'd been dead for some years, but--
BRADEN: --they still thought Mammy Crabb was--
BRADEN: --calling to see why she didn't called--
FOSL: very funny (??)
BRADEN: --yeah, right?
BRADEN: Okay, here we are.
[Pause in recording.]
BRADEN: Yeah, they went out to 20--see, 22nd is one way south. So theywent to Main Street. See, if you go, after Market, the next one over 00:04:00toward the river is Main.
FOSL: Um-hm. Okay, one more thing before we leave this Eminence thing.Was there anything, like, I know when I came into Eminence that time, like, I could notice scenery. And the thing that struck me was it was in June and there were so many tiger lilies beside the road. Is there anything that, you know, you would just really think about as you were going in? Or, you know, like when we would land in Louisville in the summer, I would always love that place where you go right by the river, you know, something that you just associated with that place and looked forward to and that kind of thing. Can you think of anything (??)? Or was it her house maybe even?
BRADEN: I don't know that I was that fond of it. It's like, you know,it, I, not that I didn't like it. I didn't have anybody to play with much.
BRADEN: There were sometimes some friends of hers would come that mighthave a child, but not much. I really didn't have any companions to 00:05:00play with there.
FOSL: I see.
BRADEN: And of course I didn't have a lot of [noise] when I was a littlechild, I didn't have a lot of friends I played with at home. Well, I did have some. I had the girl when we first moved out there was a girl exactly my age, seven I guess, that lived next door. And they moved away after a while. But my parents stayed friends, close friends with her parents, till they died. But I--
FOSL: The Turners.
BRADEN: --my parents--the Turners, yeah, Lucy, that I see if I evergo back down to Anniston sometimes now. She's, they were pretty traditional ----------(??) for Anniston. But um, and I didn't stay close to her growing up 'cause she went away to a private school. She didn't go to high school there. So I had Lucy and I'm trying to think. There were a few others ----------(??) occasionally, you know, people came and went. We sort of stayed in that neighborhood for a long time- -(coughs)--or the whole time. That was, we moved from one house to 00:06:00another, but we stayed in the same block. A lot of people kind of came and went. But, um, but I didn't really have any playmates in Eminence--
BRADEN: ------------(??). There was a woman that was ----------(??)good friends with my grandmother who would come with her daughter who was retarded. And I, you know, I felt sorry for that little girl--
BRADEN: --I wonder what's ever happened to her, too. But she--hermother was real good to her, took her everywhere--
BRADEN: --I was real worried when mother said, "What was gonna happento her after she died?" And I thought ----------(??)---------- dead. She was about my age. Of course, she's probably dead by now. But she would come and I would try to play cards with her or do something. But of course I was never ----------(??) and she was--
FOSL: That's not, like, the kind of thing you'd sort of look forward to.
BRADEN: So, and they would, and I would sit around when the, the adult----------(??) see, in that milieu--(laughs)----------(??) even went into my mother's life in Anniston, too, leis-, people with a leisure, the leisure class or something--
BRADEN: --they did a lot of visiting of each other, um, you know, and alot of dropping in, which people, by the time I was grown up, people in 00:07:00my world didn't do it at all. Oh, you didn't go visit somebody--
BRADEN: --unless you called 'em or see if it was okay.
BRADEN: But people would just come to call. They would say that theywere coming--(laughs)--and everything else. And then, and Mother would, I remember Mother would, she used t-, and Miss Turner sometimes or somebody else, they would, they says this afternoon they were gonna go calling. And they had calling cards and--(laughs)----------(??)------- --- but they'd go calling. They wouldn't tell anyone they were coming--
BRADEN: --they'd just appear. (laughs) Well, I didn't think anythingprobably (??) was funny about it then, but, um, but I learned some of that from, you know, I began to pick up different habits from Harriet who was--(laughs)--my good friend, Harriet Fitzgerald, when she was, about how people in Danville, and I can remember her talking about that, did that. And she said, oh, you just don't do that in--(laughs)- -New York. You don't go visit somebody without calling--
BRADEN: --'em and seeing--
BRADEN: --if it's okay if you come. But, um--
FOSL: I think it's still that way a little bit in small towns.
BRADEN: Um. It probably is. But it certainly was in, it was, well, itwas in Anniston then. I don't know that it is that much in Anniston now or whether any of the, well, in the first place, more women work. But these are women--
BRADEN: --well, they didn't work and they, they played bridge, a lot of00:08:00them played bridge. And then, and, and, and my mother and grandmother both did some of that. Mine never was an a-, an avid bridge player. But she, she went to bridge parties, I guess, usually during the summer Nana would have at least one party for her, and usually a bridge party, you know--
BRADEN: --where you'd have four or five tables of bridge and all that.Um, but, uh, but people would come to visit. And they would sit under the trees and visit and I would sit and listen. I, I, you know, I stayed around adults a good bit, I guess. And, um, so I'd do that and at night--people didn't visit too much at night. But we would always sit outside at night, maybe 'cause it was cooler, I think, probably, than inside. And of course there was no air conditioning.
BRADEN: But the house, the ceilings were high and all that kind ofstuff and there were fans and I can't remember smothering. There was no place to swim and I loved to swim. We, that was the one sport I liked. And we, of course I never had a swimming pool and, um, didn't know many people who did. Not everybody had swimming pools in those 00:09:00days. But we had a couple of rich friends in Anniston who had swimming pools. And I thought it would be wonderful to have a swimming pool in your yard and how wonderful that would be. But, um, after I got a little older Mother and Daddy joined the country club in Anniston--
BRADEN: --so I could go to the club and swim--
BRADEN: But, and I did. And I used to go sometimes every day in thesummer there. But there was no place to swim in Eminence. So couldn't do that.
BRADEN: Um, but I didn't sit around moping about that. That was, ofcourse, that was probably before I had access to a swimming pool much in Anniston either, 'cause they didn't join the country club till I was somewhat, maybe in high school or something. I was in junior high anyway, and, um, probably couldn't afford it, I don't know. But, um, so there wasn't enough (??) to do, and as far as noticing things, I always, like I said, I liked my grandmother's flower garden. I would go out and I, and sometimes spend some time there. And liked that sundial. I don't know if, I kind of wrote a poem about a sundial once. 00:10:00You know, I wrote poetry when I was little.
BRADEN: And I, something about a sundial fascinated me. I think I wrotea poem about the sundial. So, but I'll tell you, that's an interesting question, because, you know, I don't know that places impinge on me that much. I know what you're trying to get at, that you--
BRADEN: -create a picture, a person by--
BRADEN: --by the places that appeal to 'em. I think I've lived morein an inner world, Cate. You know, I, you know, I'm sort of oblivious of my surroundings. I mean, I can, um, of, um, of the physical world, I mean, I'm, uh, it's not any virtue, but I don't think it's a vice either.
FOSL: No, I agree.
BRADEN: It's just the way people are. It's like, and that's why I,well, I, I can't, it gets too messy. But I can live in a house that most people think is messy and dirty and all that and never notice it, you know. It just doesn't impinge me that it--
BRADEN: --is. And, um, I know when the Courier-Journal wrote that storyabout my birthday, you know--
BRADEN: ------------(??) and made ----------(??) somebody, 'cause thewoman said my house, that I was in a messy living room or something. Actually I'd kinda straightened up for her. (laughs) 00:11:00
FOSL: (laughs) Woops.
BRADEN: And that's, and she saw the ----------(??)---------- and that'sthe whole thing, but you just shouldn't a said that about it. I was, I said, "No, you didn't." I said, "Who cares?" I don't care that she said my house was messy.
FOSL: That's funny.
BRADEN: But, um--
FOSL: Well, that's something good to know--
BRADEN: But, you know, I don't keep--
BRADEN: --I don't even notice. And I do now. My house is absolutelystacked up if I don't keep my stuff in the office. My living room is stacked up with papers I just can't stand it and I think that's (??) one reason I don't get more done. And I think I told you I had this virus last week. But I wasn't gonna do anything till I got those papers picked up. So if it gets terrible I have to do something about it. But ordinarily I don't notice. And, and I don't notice what I eat either, you know.
BRADEN: People say, "Well, what do you like to eat or that?", and I say,"I don't know. I don't care." And I really don't remember what I've eaten later.
BRADEN: Uh, or if I have. I forget that I haven't eaten lunch. So Ijust, the physical world doesn't impinge on me that much. And probably that would hamper me being a writer. I don't notice, you know, I've told you--
BRADEN: --I think I have a phonographic memory.00:12:00
FOSL: Right, you have told me.
BRADEN: But I do not have a photographic memory. I don't remember thedetails of things. But I can hear things that were said fifty years ago and I know I remember 'em correctly. I can hear 'em still.
BRADEN: So, and, and it's like the physical world is just--(laughs)--not, not there sometimes. That's why I wrote--did I send you the little, I did, didn't I, sent you or gave you when you were here before, I can't remember when you were here, the little thing, that quote I gave the paper when they wanted people to know, wanted us to tell 'em their, our idea of heaven? Did I send you mine?
FOSL: I can't remember. No, I don't think.
BRADEN: Yeah, this guy wrote me this note, and he was asking differentpeople, "What's you're idea of heaven?"
FOSL: Your idea of heaven? Huh.
BRADEN: ----------(??) Of heaven. He had done one some years for youridea of hell, which was sort of tongue in cheek. But he says, "This is serious." He said, "What do you really think of when you think of heaven?" Boy, we've got a train going to cut through here. Um, that's the trouble owning property in the West End, just sitting and wait for these trains. They wouldn't let 'em take that long in the East End. A chauvinistic (??) west ender. Um, and that, so I wrote, I'll send it 00:13:00to you. It's just a little short thing 'cause they wanted an hundred words or something. And I said something to the effect that, um, um, I said bodies are a nuisance. They have to eat, sleep, when I'd rather be doing something else. And so I think that maybe heaven is a place, I think of heaven as a place where I won't have, I, I've worked in different prose (??) on this idea. I'll just be all spirit and I don't have to worry about that stuff anymore.
FOSL: Wow, how interesting. I would never have thought--
BRADEN: And then I said--
FOSL: --of that.
BRADEN: --but, except I thought that's might, might give the wrongimpression, too. And I said the only, I've never, I never felt that way particularly about sex. In other words, sort of rejecting your physical--
FOSL: Right. Right.
BRADEN: --being, which I didn't. But, um, I don't know, I've gottenalong without sex in recent years. But I didn't never reject the sexual aspect. But eating and sleeping seems to me a terrible waste of time, you know. And--(laughs)--so it's just the, uh, that, that's just the way I am. 00:14:00
FOSL: Well, tell me this, speaking of sex, this is only broadly relatedto that. But when Carl, after Carl died, have you made a conscious decision, like, you're done with relationships? Or it just has something that's, you know, you didn't have time for or inclination for and it just sort of turned out that way?
BRADEN: It was partly conscious, I think. I didn't have time, you know,in the first place. I, you know, I never planned to get married once--
BRADEN: --so why would I start looking for another man?
FOSL: Right, right.
BRADEN: And, um, and then I, and with the way my life was by then, andprobably always had been, I didn't think I'd find a man that would put up with me, for one thing. Because I was not a traditional woman, even in the sense of compared with feminists, because I, you know, I'm not gonna spend time making a home and all that kind of stuff. Which there's nothing wrong with that, but I just wasn't -----------(??), um, um, you know, I didn't want to be waiting on a man. And I know that not all men-- ----------(??) that way.-----------(??)------------You're about to go the wrong way--
BRADEN: --Um, not that all men would require that, and--00:15:00
BRADEN: --you know, I could, maybe I could've found a mate. But, yousee, I, I felt like I had such an unusual relationship with Carl, which wasn't perfect, but I think it was unusual, and I didn't think I was gonna find that again. And I didn't wanna, and I've seen widows get into this, they're looking so hard for a man and it almost, you, it reverts to that adolescent thing when you're waiting--
BRADEN: --for a man to call you on the phone.
BRADEN: And I, it would, Jane Holtz that, um, I don't know if you'veheard me talk about Jane Holtz, but she, very intelligent woman, politically active and all that kind of stuff. And she just got giddy and she, but her whole life was wrapped around trying to find, she finally did find a man and I guess she's been happy. But, you know, she'd be, I, well, I, I, I when I thought about it I'd be at, I'd stay at her house when I was in New York doing fundraising--
BRADEN: --and this was long before Carl died, but her husband wasdead. She's older, a little older than I am maybe, but he died before somebody was of the age to die. But, but and I had a lot of phone calls to make. And so I've always assumed I could use her phone and 00:16:00that's sort of what people offer, they offer you their house--
BRADEN: ----------(??) And I guess they pick your brain and all that.But, um, but she would come ----------(??) through with the phone. And I realized that I was getting on her nerves my being on the phone so much, and I said, I said, uh, one time I said, you know, I'll just have to make my calls later. You go ahead and make what calls you want." Well it turned out she wasn't needing to make calls--
FOSL: She just didn't--
BRADEN: --she was, didn't want the phone tied up--
FOSL: --want the phone to be--
BRADEN: --'cause she was hoping somebody would call her.
FOSL: Oh, wow.
BRADEN: Now whether it was somebody specific or just somebody, I don'tknow. But I, that really impressed me at the time. And I think Carl was still alive and I was thinking I never want to get to that stage again. That reminds me of when I was a teenager, you see--
FOSL: Right. Right.
BRADEN: --waiting for a man to call.
BRADEN: And I'm just not going back to being a teenager. (laughs) Thatonce was enough. So, so to that extent it was conscious, I think.
FOSL: Um-hm. Well, you know, that, uh, this is jumping around a littlebit, way away from Eminence and childhood. But that reminds me of something. I had asked you when we were talking with Mike Honey that day and you, you said you were gonna talk about it but you didn't talk about it. So you sort of be a little bit more specific about the, um, 00:17:00the ways that you all shared parenting. I mean you've talked about it, like, in general terms of, like, one of your was always traveling and the other one was always, you know, when the other one was home, the, and you would alternate. But can you just say a little bit more about that?
BRADEN: -----------(??) Well, I don't remember the details (??) aboutthat. Maybe, I mean, there are just different things you do with children, taking 'em places--
BRADEN: --talking to 'em. Carl probably spent more time talking to thekids than I did. And uh, ----------(??) Jimmy. I mean, he, he, had carried on adult conversations with Jim since he was real little. Jim was one of these kids with a thousand questions. He went somewhere with, on a trip with Carl and Carl said, "I bet I answered a thousand questions on the way back." (Fosl laughs) So, you know, it was that kind of thing. And, and of course we shared the cooking and cleaning up, too. I mean we would al-, for a long time, we alternated who cooked which night ----------(??) what we ate, and, but we had three meals a day, too ----------(??) but some way -----------(??)---------- 00:18:00
BRADEN: --the kids were little, which I haven't done in years, but Idon't know that people eat with children necessarily. I guess children have to eat three times a day. But I just thought you ate three times a day.
FOSL: Yeah, you kind of have to or at least feed them three times a day.
BRADEN: But, um, but we had the main meal at night and we wouldalternate if we were both home on the weekends washing dishes and stuff like that and cleaning up ----------(??)--
FOSL: So this was kind of--
FOSL: --this was a very conscious kind of thing against male--
FOSL: --supremacy in a way. Or against--
BRADEN: Well, not so, I don't know that we called it male supremacy, wejust sort of share in the details of life. I think the details didn't interest either one of us that much--
BRADEN: --so somebody had to do 'em, you know. Because I didn't, youknow, some people really enjoy cooking.
BRADEN: It's like an art. And I did not (??) really mind it. But itwasn't something I'd pick--
FOSL: Right, no--
BRADEN: --to spend a lot of time--
FOSL: --I don't like that.
BRADEN: --doing, you know. But some people do, they really love it andit's like a create-, creation.
FOSL: And what about him?
BRADEN: But neither--no. He didn't have that at all. He, he loved, hewould fix pork chops, which, his little, little peppery pork chops. I 00:19:00remember that he put a lot of pepper on it. That was one of his things and just simple stuff. Or he would, and, and breakfast, too. We'd alternate on breakfast, not rigidly alternate--
BRADEN: --not that much, but again, we did and it was mainly just toshare the details of life so we could do other things, you know.
BRADEN: Washing clothes. We did all what you have to do when you havechildren, but we--
FOSL: [noise] ----------(??) you just gonna park over here and [noise]--
BRADEN: I'm gonna park right here. So come, let's go see if we can findyour mail. And I'll call while I'm--
[Pause in recording.]
BRADEN: ------------(??) they built a small building on the campus wherethe science lab was. And, um, so I would, um, got to know her. And I think she stayed around Stratford, maybe till it closed.
BRADEN: So she may still live in Danville.
BRADEN: I can't think of her first name, but it would be in the record----------(??).
FOSL: ----------(??)--I bet Miss Jefferson (??) will know it.
BRADEN: Richardson was her last name. Then of course the other, the00:20:00teachers of the classes I really enjoyed I'm sure that, well, at least one of 'em, they're probably both dead. I guess they are ---------- (??)---------- get old. Um, was the journalism teacher, Miss May (??).
BRADEN: And she, uh, was, you know, I was wanting to be a journalist bythen or thinking about it. And I became, and I was, became editor of the paper, the Stratford Traveler, they called it.
BRADEN: And it won a lot of prizes, although as I look back on it, itwasn't that good a paper. They ra-, articles just went on and on and on. We didn't know anything about writing short. But, um, she taught me how to do makeup and (??) stuff. I had done some of that in high school.
BRADEN: 'cause I worked on the high school paper. But I used to--thenat the, my senior year I started working on it when I was a freshman, then I got to be editor. And I would, and there was a little room down in the basement of that big building there, it was the, was the journalism room. It was very small. Not that many people took it, just a small school anyway. And I would go down there at night and work all night to complete ---------(??)--
FOSL: Yeah, you did say that--
BRADEN: --and I'd go down--
FOSL: --in ----------(??).
BRADEN: --and, and they had lights out rules. See, that was the dayswhere the lights out were supposed to be at eleven o'clock. But I could always go down there and stay up all night.
FOSL: Well, um--
BRADEN: And, um, so, and then there was the dramatics teacher, 'cause Iwas interested in drama. And that was Miss Parker. And she was just sweet as she could be. And very good, I think, you know, I don't think I was made to be an actress. But she brought out what talent I did have, I guess. And I minored in drama, you know.
FOSL: It seems to be you must have been extremely talented. I mean youmu-, you were the star of just about every play at both those schools.
BRADEN: Well, there weren't many people. Not, no, not at Randolph--
FOSL: But at Randolph-Macon, too.
FOSL: The, for junior year, you were the star of the junior play Timefor Romance.
BRADEN: I've forgotten that one.
FOSL: Well, when you read this excerpt you gonna be reminded of itbecause the plot is a very sort of, you know, stock sort of--
BRADEN: I can't remember that play at all.
FOSL: Well, maybe -----------(??)----------
BRADEN: And I remember some ----------(??)--
FOSL: --in the truth.
BRADEN: -----------(??)----------. Well, the thing is, I didn't havemuch competition, you see--
BRADEN: --at Stratford. And uh, um, on anything, you know, I was, and00:22:00my mother pointed that out. I remember I may have told you this, Ida Fitzgerald thought it was--
BRADEN: --sort of unusual for a parent that she thought it wasn't toogood for me to be a little--big frog in a little pond.
BRADEN: Because I was president of the--vice president of the studentbody and then the president left and I was president. She left to get married, you know.
FOSL: Now who was that?
BRADEN: June Nichols.
FOSL: Okay, 'cause I did want that name. June Nichols. Is that N-i-c-h-o-l-s?
FOSL: Okay. Okay, let me just--
BRADEN: She's the one I told I didn't want to come to her wedding ----------(??)----------.
FOSL: Right. And that's in there. I think you'll see that in thisexcerpt, too.
BRADEN: But don't use her name, because that marriage broke up later.
FOSL: Oh, okay, well, all right.
BRADEN: I can't think where I ran into her, not recently, but somewheretwenty or thirty years after we finished, and her marriage had broken up. So I, I don't want to, I probably wouldn't use her name.
FOSL: Sure. Um, now, it was the war years and do you remember, like,conditions imposed upon you because of the war, like rationing --
BRADEN: Oh yeah, I remember we couldn't get cig--
BRADEN: --couldn't get cigarettes.
BRADEN: We had--(laughs)--and nobody's told us not to smoke anyway in00:23:00those days. You know, we smoke in our rooms and we couldn't smoke in class. And women weren't, it wasn't very nice to smoke on the streets in those days. Of course--
BRADEN: --now, now, now that's the only place you can smoke--
BRADEN: --so you smoke (laughs)--
BRADEN: --everywhere you get a chance. But we smoked in our rooms andthere wasn't any problem with that. And, um, um, but the standard back--brands of cigarettes, there weren't any, so there was, we had to buy these off-brands. I--Rameses. I remember Rameses--(laughs)-- cigarettes. They tasted awful, but they had something in 'em. I don't know if it was tobacco or what. And you couldn't get silk stockings much. And there wasn't any--
BRADEN: --nylon then. And everybody wore silk stockings.
FOSL: So did you--
BRADEN: I don't know what we did for stockings, to tell you the truth.
FOSL: Well, you know, in, in sort of standard classroom histories ofwomen in World War II, they kind of talk about that as the moment when women started wearing slacks.
FOSL: So do you remember that as something you did?
BRADEN: I can't remember that we wore slacks or not. I guess, I guess I,I think, you know, that's funny, I don't remember that because we wore 00:24:00skirts and sweaters a lot. That was what you kind of wore to school.
BRADEN: And I cannot remember at Stratford or Randolph-Macon either,whether we were permitted to wear something beside skirts to school. I don't know. I think we wore, I remember, I guess we wore blue jeans sometimes. I don't know that I ever had any blue jeans. Maybe I did. But I can remember when I, visiting Schoolfield once in Rye, New York, that's where she lived, and her mother. I never knew her family well, and I never even got in touch with 'em, well, that was a long time and she died before I even knew she was dead. But, um, she--(laughs)--I remember her mother saying I was a, saying, oh she always, when, when Lucile was away she had this vision in her mind of this beau-, her beautiful daughter, and Lucile was, she had this beautiful long brown hair. She didn't have a beautiful face, she had an interesting face, but she had this long blonde hair. But she had this picture of this beautiful young woman, and then here she comes in these blue jeans. 00:25:00That's all she has on, you know. (laughs)
BRADEN: And all that. So I guess people did. I don't remember. Well,I can remember being out in the woods and at camp and you wore shorts and we must have had slacks, I guess. I honestly don't remember whether we wore 'em to class or not.
FOSL: See, I don't remember seeing 'em in a yearbook either. But Iwondered if you remembered anything about that.
BRADEN: I know we had to, if, we had to sort of dress for dinner there----------(??)--
FOSL: Right. And probably classes--
BRADEN: --so that--
BRADEN: --well, I can't remember. I guess at Randolph-Macon. I know wedid at Stratford.
FOSL: 'Cause when we went to Ran-, when you and I went together toRandolph-Macon, you showed me what used to be that dining room--
FOSL: --and you said you all did dress for dinner.
BRADEN: Well, maybe we did. I know we did at Stratford. At Stratfordyou had a particular table you sat at and I think you did at Randolph- Macon, too. And there was a faculty member there. And you always stayed there. And maybe you moved around some during the year. I don't remember. But you came and you dressed, so that we may have, maybe we did wear slacks during the day and had to put on a skirt at night. I just can't--(laughs)--remember. Well, when--
FOSL: And then you weren't supposed to have more than two pairs ofshoes. But I don't know. I don't, I don't remember--
BRADEN: I don't remember that so much as some of the other things. Of00:26:00course there was the--we didn't have, nobody had cars. So the gasoline rationing wasn't a thing. Well, of course the other thing was getting anywhere. I mean, you, nobody flew then.
BRADEN: Well, I guess some people did. But basically you, you traveledby train. So I always went to college on the train.
BRADEN: And, um, and the train rides were fun because they would--bothto Stratford and Randolph-Macon, same train, I think, went to Danville and Lynchburg and, uh, came through Anniston. And people from Birmingham were on it. People from Montgomery would come up and get on it. So there were always a bunch of girls going back to school or coming home. We'd go to the club car and we'd have drinks and people would get a little high and stuff. But then the trains got very crowded and you just couldn't find, sometimes you couldn't even find a place to sit. You, it wasn't like a reserved seat, you know. You'd sit on your suitcase in the aisle. And the train stations were just packed with people, you know, it's amazing, um, because the soldiers traveling around and stuff, I guess. I don't know. That was what a 00:27:00lot of it was. But they were just packed.
BRADEN: Um, and then as far as, I guess when I was home during the war,you know, the gasoline rationing--
BRADEN: --restricted people. But as I say, nobody had cars at school.And I never went off the campus anyway.
FOSL: Right, you mentioned--
BRADEN: You know.
BRADEN: And some people did. I was talking about that when I was, backat the re-, Randolph-Macon. I said I don't think--
BRADEN: --I ever went downtown in Lynchburg in the two years I wasthere. I really don't.
FOSL: We talked about that.
BRADEN: But other women did. They did. They went to movies and stuff.And I would go across the street there to the Columns, they called it--
FOSL: Well, um--
BRADEN: --to eat, but, um. What else was rationed or that kind of thingin (??) the war? Boys. There weren't any boys around.
BRADEN: (laughs) They were rationed.
FOSL: Well, speaking of boys. I've written a little bit about thatwhole relationship with, uh, Bobby Baker because it was, it, it was sort of illustrative of your view of relationships at that time. But he went to Auburn and then he went into the Army? Do you, do you remember what happened to him? I ----------(??)
BRADEN: Oh he's, he may still be around. He's not in Anniston.00:28:00
FOSL: But, I mean in the short term. I, I'm not too concerned with now.But, like, when he, you said at one point in one of the interviews that he joined the service. But you didn't say, like, if it was the Army or where he went.
BRADEN: I don't remember. Well everybody--
FOSL: Do you remember ----------(??)--
BRADEN: --did. I mean, if there wasn't--
BRADEN: --something physical wrong with you, you were in the Army orthe Navy. And most people were in the Army. So I guess he was in the Army. He wasn't, he didn't stay in. He wasn't career Army.
BRADEN: He was in the Army during the war. And I sa-, you know, I sawhim when I'd be back in Anniston after that, after the war, I know. Um--
FOSL: So it wasn't a bitter breakup or anything?
BRADEN: No, not really, I don't think. I, I think, I remember tha-, Imay have told you about this, 'cause things that stick in my mind--
FOSL: About the fraternity pin.
BRADEN: Oh, when I lost his fraternity pin--
BRADEN: --yeah. But no, the, um, when I saw him, and that must havebeen, I think maybe after I was in Kentucky but maybe before I was married to Carl and I was back home for a visit or something. And I 00:29:00went to somebody's house for a little party or just a little gathering, maybe Tom McNaron, you may have heard me mention him. He's still around. We were--
BRADEN: McNaron. M-c-n-a-r-n--n-a-r-o-n. He was in my class and wenever had a romantic period, we were good friends, sort of. And he stayed in Louisville, in Louisville, Anniston and married another, Leonora Jesperson there and I saw them actually through the years somewhat. I guess he's still alive. He developed cancer a few years ago--
BRADEN: --while my mother and father were still in Anniston and hesurvived the first round. So I don't know. But he and Bobby, so it may have been at his house where we were. But, um, Bob, I, Bobby, Bob, I think we called him Bobby in high school. Bob was a year ahead of me in school, I believe--
BRADEN: --I'm sure he was. And, um, but--(laughs)--I remember being inthis gathering. And some way I was tell, I, it wasn't anything serious 00:30:00discussion. But, and it was before, it was before I had gotten really a lot involved in any overt civil rights activity and before they knew, I mean, Bobby and them knew that, I think, how committed I was to that. But I just, I just was talking about my father 'cause people al-, my friends always liked my father. He was kind of sweet. But everybody thought he was a little eccentric, which he was. A little bit like I am now, getting more and more like him all the time. (laughs) Um, but, and I was telling about how he wanted to go to New York and the only way, nob-, as I say, nobody thought about flying. It was, the train was the Southerner. But by that time the railroad cars had been--
BRADEN: --desegregated. And, um, so he was gonna have to sit with thecolored people. That's the way he put it. I think he said, colored people. So he just, I said, "So he can't go. (laughs) He can't go 'cause he can't sit with the colored people." So I was ----------(??) something--
BRADEN: --and, and I remember Bob said, said, "Mr. McCarty said that?"00:31:00And I said--(laughs)--"Yeah." And he just shook his head, you know, just kind of, you know, how--
BRADEN: --ridiculous that was. It was sort of like, you know, that'sthose old folks. They do have these strange ideas.
FOSL: That's right.
BRADEN: So, uh, but I don't know what he really thought about anything'cause we never really talked about things.
BRADEN: And I never saw him after I became more controversial. I didsee Tom in that period and, um--
FOSL: And then there's that one you went to the senior prom. I forgethis name. I, I've got it here someplace that--
BRADEN: I don't even know who that was--
FOSL: --tell me that story about you, you all stopping and it made youcry to go by that little country church that was burned. I'll tell you that story. ----------(??)----------
BRADEN: I don't even remember that. What was that?
FOSL: His name is Allen Draper.
BRADEN: Oh, he's still around. I think he's still around. See, Ihadn't been back to Anniston in quite a while. I need to get down there. We've got a battle going on there in (??)---------- supporting Monsanto Chemical. Um--
FOSL: Well, he has very good feelings about you.
BRADEN: Oh you talked to him? Yes.
FOSL: Yes I did--00:32:00
BRADEN: He went in an artistic direction sort of. But he married thisstrange woman. Well, actually Tom McNaron's wife's sister, Helen Jesperson. She was really wild. There were a lot of wild women in Anniston.
FOSL: And then he got divorced, which I think--
BRADEN: They got divorced. They got divorced.
FOSL: --in Anniston, that was still such a kind of unheard of thing todo that he started feeling like an outcast just 'cause of that and then kind of identified with some of the experiences--
BRADEN: Oh, did he really?
BRADEN: Well, they, a lot of 'em finally did get divorced. But I guessit wasn't quite acceptable. But then, she, yeah, well, she was sort of sleeping around with a lot of different men. And I think she probably- -maybe she married somebody else after that. I don't know.
FOSL: I don't know.
BRADEN: But, um--
FOSL: Well, now the tennis pro--
BRADEN: Yeah, there's Chuck Evart, um-hm.
FOSL: Chuck Evart?
BRADEN: E-v-a-r-t. It's like that, it's very similar to the name of thewoman who became quite a star--
FOSL: Chris Evert. Um-hm.
BRADEN: And I wondered sometimes if there was any relationship. It's,the name is different but people can change their names. And whether he had a daughter or something, you know. 'Cause he was, he was quite good at tennis and, um, I had no idea what became of him. 00:33:00
FOSL: Hmm, well, um, and that would have been, do you remember what yearthat would have been? Was that when you were still at Stratford, like, the summer after Stratford maybe?
BRADEN: That I met Chuck?
FOSL: That ----------(??)? I was just trying to place him in there. Idon't even know that this will be in there. But I was just curious.
BRADEN: It may have been between my junior and senior years at Randolph-Macon.
FOSL: Okay. That's kind of--
FOSL: --I knew it was sophomore-junior or junior-senior. I wasn't surewhich.
BRADEN: I'm not sure either. It was one of the two.
FOSL: And he was in the service at Fort--
BRADEN: Yeah, and--
BRADEN: --um-hm, and I can't remember where I met him at that, but therewere dances and stuff and I met him.
BRADEN: And then he, he finally just got disgusted with me because Inever wrote him.
FOSL: Right. And that, you did tell me that story. Okay, now, um, I, Idon't know if you've read Pat Sullivan's book.
BRADEN: No, is it out?
FOSL: It's out. And Anne, it's so good, you just should go out and buy00:34:00it today. It's so good, I just loved it. I even wrote her a note, and I don't even know her that well. But I wept when I read parts of that book, 'cause there, there are ways that it really brings to life people like Clark Foreman and Bing Baldwin and, uh--
FOSL: --especially Palmer Weber, especially.
BRADEN: Um-hm, she was in love with him, wasn't she? Did she--
FOSL: I don't know.
BRADEN: --live with him? I think she lived with him.
FOSL: Is that right?
BRADEN: Well, I just always figured that. I just--
FOSL: I had no--
BRADEN: --assumed it.
FOSL: --idea. Hmm.
BRADEN: I mean they were in Charlottesville at the same time. I thinkshe did. But, I mean, I never heard--
BRADEN: --anybody say so. But I just--
FOSL: No, I never knew either. It, it never even occurred to me. Buthe really comes to life in her book and it's, it's called Days of Hope.
FOSL: It's real good. UNC just put it out.
FOSL: And see, I had paid for an advanced copy at this year's Southern,but it wasn't out yet.
FOSL: But so they sent it to me right away when it was published. SoI got it, like, right away. But yeah, it's great. But anyway, she talked a lot about how as the war went on people were more and more, there was building up more anti-Roosevelt sentiment in the South. And 00:35:00a lot of it came out of anti-Eleanor--
FOSL: --sentiment. So we've talked a little bit about, like, thoserumors of the Eleanor Clubs and all that--
FOSL: --but I wondered if you remembered anybody talking about Eleanor,either in a good or bad way when you were in college.
BRADEN: Oh, in college?
FOSL: Yeah, in college, during the war. And, well, thereafter, too, or,or before. But I assumed--
BRADEN: Well, I think the rumors about Eleanor I heard growing up, sortof. I think that's when I heard about the Eleanor--
BRADEN: --Clubs, when I was in Anniston, more when I was in high school,I think. Now I may be wrong about that. But that would have been thirties.
FOSL: Well she kind of argues that there was getting to be more, it wasgetting to be more widespread, this--
BRADEN: It may be--
BRADEN: --because I don't remember vividly that. Probably was. But shewas controversial in the thirties. Well, it was in '38 when she came to the Southern Conference for Human--
BRADEN: --Welfare. So that, I think I heard that sort of thing morein Anniston.
BRADEN: I don't remember a lot of talk, I remember about her atRandolph-Macon. The people I knew there liked Roosevelt. I think 00:36:00people were just--
BRADEN: --crying when he died and all that kind of stuff. Um, so Idon't remember that that much.
FOSL: Okay. Well that, I mean, not that you would have necessarily ----------(??). Okay, um, two more questions 'cause I don't want to get, we've gone way over ten minutes and I don't--
FOSL: --want to. Two more questions. One is, when you lived inBirmingham, jumping ahead, where did you live? What, you said, you said you had no life really outside the paper. But do you remember where you lived then?
BRADEN: Unh-uh (??). Except with Marshall. I lived with MarshallJohnson as much as I could. Um--
FOSL: And were you all together before you went there?
BRADEN: Well, yeah, I guess I thought I was in love with him, I thought,um, in Anniston. And then he came to Birmingham because I was there, I guess.
FOSL: Oh okay, I wasn't clear on that.
BRADEN: Yeah. But, um, but I got a, when I first went to Birmingham Igot a, a room and it may have been somebody my parents knew. Um, and 00:37:00I'm, I'm not sure I could go there now. It's somewhere near the Five Points area. But kind of in, I don't know what part of Birmingham it was called. I'm really, I've kind of forgotten. I haven't been in Birmingham enough to be familiar now with all the sections.
BRADEN: But it was a nice residential area and I just had a room there.And then I guess when, after he came to Birmingham and I wanted to be with him more, um, I didn't, I wanted to get a different living situation. And I got an, an apartment somewhere right near Five Points. And, um, I think I got it under a different name. I mean, people just couldn't live together openly in those days, you know. It was sort of disgraceful. (Fosl laughs) So, I think I got it under another name. And he didn't live there, but he would spend time there. And he had an apartment somewhere. But we were there a lot. And 00:38:00then finally the landlady got real vicious and she found out who I was and she was real upset because, because if I had a man in the room or something. So--(laughs)--that wasn't gonna work. And then he, I remember he went out and found an apartment and I remember he told me--(laughs)--he says, "Well, I got an apartment." He said, "I got it for us, too." So he got it as--
BRADEN: --as Mr. And Mrs. Marshall Johnson. And that was also nearFive Points. But it was further out. It was out a street and we could walk to Five Points, ----------(??) walked ----------(??) to go get something to eat or something like that. So I lived about three different places--
BRADEN: --and I'm trying to think. By the time I left there I had sortof decided to break up with him, a part of, and, I think, so I don't, I'm try to think whether it, I, when, even when I was living with him there whether I kept things somewhere else. I may have had another apartment, too.
BRADEN: Yeah, well, I finally got another place, but I'd go to his place00:39:00some and I, and they thought I was his wife, so I could go back and forth. But I had my own apartment and I remember when I, when I came to Louisville I was, and ----------(??) moved out of that place and I can hardly remember how that looked. I didn't spend much time there.
BRADEN: I think I just had the apartment. I know after that place didn'twork out, after the landlady got so nasty, I, I got another apartment and then I didn't hardly ever stayed there 'cause I stayed with him.
BRADEN: And, but that's where, I guess, I kept things, whatever I had.And when I moved, and I flew to Louisville.
FOSL: Oh, okay.
BRADEN: And I, I remember my father who was worried about me going offto Louisville and stuff had found me a place to live through somebody he knew up here. And he came and got me and took me to the airplane. And I remember that. And it wasn't that usual to fly, but the reason I did it was that I had worked in Birmingham until the end of that week and I thought I had to be here to start work on Monday. I remember that first week in April, or I thought it was the first week of April. And I got here and found out they really weren't expecting me till next Monday.
FOSL: Right. Right.
BRADEN: So, when I first came in or something like that, in the middle of00:40:00the week, I think. But that's why I flew. Which was sort of unusual. I had flown, people were beginning to fly then, you know, places. I had flown to New York a few times. But it's funny, I, you know, it's just, flying just wasn't what you did in--(laughs)--those days.
FOSL: Right, it's still very new.
FOSL: Okay, well, um, then real quick. When you and Carl, you threwover this idea of this wedding that your parents wanted to have and you just went and got married.
FOSL: Who went with you and where did you go?
BRADEN: Barbara Lane (??) and, um, this lawyer here that was a goodfriend of Carl's, Herb Monsky, who was sort of a radical lawyer. And he's long dead now. His wife lived longer than that. I don't know that she's still around or not. But he and Carl were good friends. He was sort of lawyer for the left-wing of the CIO in Louisville. And they were the witnesses, I think, he and Barbara. They were both working on the Progressive Party.
BRADEN: The Henry Wallace campaign. And, um, and we went to the, the00:41:00Unitarian Church, the Unitarian minister married us.
FOSL: And so married you--
BRADEN: First Unitarian Church--
FOSL: --in the church?
BRADEN: That's funny, I can't remember whether we were in the church orin some chapel or something. That church burned. They, they rebuilt where they'd been before. But that, it's not there anymore.
FOSL: Is that that one down by the library?
BRADEN: Um-hm. But it's entirely new now. They--
BRADEN: They had a fire a few years ago and rebuilt.
BRADEN: It may have been in, in sort of a s-, chapel or something. Idon't think it was in the church.
FOSL: So but it wasn't really quite--
BRADEN: I don't remember.
FOSL: --as quick as saying, "Let's just go this morning."
BRADEN: Well, it almost was. I, I remember I called Barbara that dayand said, "I want you to be a witness at my wedding." And that was that morning. And she was real busy. She said, "Oh Lord," she said, "Do I have to do it today?" (laughs) or something, and I said, "Yeah."
FOSL: And what day was--
BRADEN: June twenty-first, I think.
FOSL: That's what I thought. But you always celebrated--
BRADEN: March nineteenth.
FOSL: March nineteenth. Okay. And then you just went on back, you,00:42:00did you go to work that day or did you take the day off or did you go anyplace?
BRADEN: No, well we worked, this was after work, I guess, 'cause we bothworked days at the paper and it, it was an afternoon paper, you got off about three o'clock. So it was after work, we went to work the next day and nobody there knew we'd gotten married until it came through on the, a list of, you know, that they get from the courthouse in the paper--
BRADEN: --of marriages, (laughs)--
BRADEN: --marriage licenses.
FOSL: Okay. Okay. I think, I don't want to take up too much of yourtime 'cause then you will decide once and forever you don't want me around.
[Pause in recording.]
BRADEN: --no, because that's the first time I knew anything aboutwriting a story to size.
BRADEN: Because I--
BRADEN: --you just wrote things and turned 'em in, the news would print'em. And I, when Jasper (??)--(laughs)--Hodson (??) was the editor and he first told me to write two hundred and fifty words, I didn't know how to write two hundred and fifty--(laughs)--words. So I had a time. But I learned. And that's, and I, and I still use that talent.
BRADEN: Um, and we wrote short stories and we just always kind ofsneered at the Courier-Journal 'cause they went on and on-- 00:43:00
FOSL: Yes they did.
BRADEN: --and they wrote these long stories, you know, had no senseof space whatsoever. Um, but they had some good reporters. And some of those, Grady Clay who is, covered the education beat when I was covering the education beat for The Times so we were kind of in competition with each other. And it wasn't cutthroat, but he was better than, he, he had more background than I did--
BRADEN: --he had been here longer and he knew the people. AlthoughI think I finally did okay. But, um, but he left the paper and he's began editing architectural magazines and he's, or city planning stuff. He's considered quite an expert. Still is. He has an article in the paper every once in a while on something to do with--
BRADEN: --landscaping and trying to build decent cities and stuff. AndI had a really nice letter from him at some point.
FOSL: So now would he be someone you knew through that period ----------(??)?
BRADEN: Well, no, not the kind of person you were talking about, likeI'd sit around and talk to. I mean, we didn't know each other well. 00:44:00But he, he wrote me a real nice letter. And something happened, and I got letters from a bunch of people. Maybe it was when I got that award from the ACLU--
BRADEN: --and there was a story about it on the front page of the paperor something, which would've been about 1990, and a whole bunch of people wrote to me. I think that's may have been what it was. 'Cause I got letters from a bunch of people at some point. But that he wrote--
FOSL: I'd love to look at those.
BRADEN: --he wrote a real nice letter. Well, they're somewhere. And Ididn't, I never throw ----------(??)--throw anything anyway. They're somewhere. They're probably all in a folder or somewhere. So, but anyway, the point is that he, that, so he and I would be sort of in competition and other things. So it was definitely a competitive relationship. And nobody would have thought of picking up something from the other paper--
FOSL: Um-hm. Um-hm.
BRADEN: --at all. And the editorial staffs were different, too, youknow, the editorial writing.
BRADEN: And sometimes they disagreed, editorially, on some question.So--
FOSL: I haven't found an ----------(??)----------.
BRADEN: Um-hm. Sometimes but, well, of course they were all Binghamand Ethridge, but, um, so no I never would have had a story in the 00:45:00Courier-Journal.
FOSL: Okay, well then, I think I, I think that '47, that might a beenfrom The Times. I can't really remember. I just got it yesterday. But I think it was Courier-Journal. So I'll just look back for the counterpart of The Times on that day.
BRADEN: You mean in, well, how do you have a day? Oh, you mean the--
FOSL: The Wallace rally.
BRADEN: --oh, the, the Wallace rally.
FOSL: Yeah, see, I think, so, I, I've just been operating under amisassumption that--
FOSL: --that would be the morning and they would just carry--
BRADEN: Oh, no.
FOSL: --pick it up.
BRADEN: So that's, somebody wrote a story for the Courier-Journal you'retalking about.
FOSL: Yes, yes.
BRADEN: Well, The Times probably covered it, too. Now they would, Ican't remember, like, if the Courier had something pretty complete on something the night before, they wouldn't do that much with it. And they would take it and rewrite it. They would clip that out and they, and, and he, the editor would give it to somebody to rewrite something, something short on that--
BRADEN: --and update it if it needed updating.
BRADEN: They'd do that. But they wouldn't pick 'em up.
FOSL: Well, most of, I think the things that I have from, from, ofyour writings from that period have come out of the Madison collection rather than this, because I haven't worked extensively with this, 00:46:00because I can't get it on interlibrary loan. So I've mainly worked with the Courier.
BRADEN: Hmm. Well there must be an index of The Times somewhere.
FOSL: Well, I'm gonna go back and ask ----------(??).
BRADEN: There's some things I've been curious I've wanted to look andsee. I've always told Lyman Johnson who filed the suit here on the ----------(??)--
BRADEN: --that I got that story on the front page. And I've oftenthought it was my memory right about that. I know I wrote the story. I went to interview him and I had a big argument with the editor who wanted me to write two paragraphs and I said, "Well, it's a major story of the decade." And I argued with him and they gave me, what, two hundred and fifty--(laughs)--words. No, actually, two hundred, sometimes you got five--four hundred words. And that was a pretty long story at The Times. But they gave me adequate space.
BRADEN: And I think I persuaded them to put it on the front page.Anyway, that's become part of the folklore with, between me and Lyman ----------(??)--
BRADEN: --and I went and got that story--(laughs)--on the front page.
FOSL: Well, I will probably--
BRADEN: I don't know whether I did or not--
FOSL: --I will probably know that by--
FOSL: --the end of the week. 'Cause that's one of the things that I'mgonna--
BRADEN: --but I don't know when--
BRADEN: --that was. It would have been--
FOSL: I know ----------(??)--
BRADEN: --but I wasn't at The Times that long. Remember I was onlythere from April the 1st, 1947, until November '48, a year and a half. 00:47:00
FOSL: Yeah. Okay.
BRADEN: So it--
FOSL: Well I have a date for it because I have the Courier stories fromall that.
BRADEN: Oh, from Lyman?
BRADEN: Well, this was when he was filing a suit. He was--
BRADEN: --either gonna file it or he had filed it. I forget which.
FOSL: Actually, you know what, that brings me to one last question Ihave that, Jim Cremlin (??) told me a story and I wondered if you could clarify, but it seems like I've asked you this before and maybe you couldn't, but there've--
[Pause in recording.]
BRADEN: --he wrote a column for The Times.
FOSL: Column for The Times.
BRADEN: But she and Carl didn't fight. But she, Carl really knew whatwas going on in the Labor Movement and he didn't f-, think she did, you know.
BRADEN: But she had been around a long time and I don't know what herconnection to the famous Dupont family is or was, but she's, uh, she's long dead. But she was an old family here and I think she had some kind of pull there at the paper. So she had this column. She didn't do anything else but write that column. And it was not exactly Times' style either. It was a long, rambling column. But I didn't remember her ever attacking me and I don't know what, uh, it would've, what it was about. I have no idea.
BRADEN: But it was supposed to be in her column? Was that what he said?00:48:00
FOSL: That's, it sounds--
BRADEN: Well, that was one of the things--
FOSL: --he said he, she attacked--
BRADEN: --that's pretty much--
FOSL: --him in print.--
BRADEN: --that's pretty much the only thing--
FOSL: --is ----------(??) guess.
BRADEN: --she wrote in the paper.
FOSL: Okay. We'll see. I, that's just something I haven't dealt withbecause it's very tedious to sit and go through microfilms--
BRADEN: Oh yeah.
FOSL: --of a paper you don't have any suggestion of where and when ithappened, you know. So. Okay. Well, I think that's it.
[Pause in recording.]
BRADEN: --Jean Lloyd and, um, Gelba Gate Williams (??) who still lives inGadsden, I think. Can't think of her last name, now, and Anne Poland.
FOSL: Anne who?
BRADEN: Anne Poland.
BRADEN: Never--yeah, she, um, I guess still lives in Atlanta. She movedto Atlanta and became a big official in a, some very responsible job at Rich's Department Store. Someone who lived a fashionable life and never married at the time other people were. She had a career but I think she would have rather married. It wasn't sort of a choice. 00:49:00And finally did marry when maybe, sort of middle-aged and her husband didn't live long. He died. But she was married, so she has another name now. And I think maybe she's retired in Atlanta. But she--
FOSL: And that's Anne Poland?
BRADEN: Anne Poland, there was the Poland family, lived, um--
FOSL: Spelled like the country?
BRADEN: Um-hm. They were, she was very tall. They were all tall.Her mother was very tall. And my brother has kept in touch with her brother. She had three sisters, um, Mary Poland, Martha and Anne, and then this brother, Carter. Carter was a classmate of Lindsay's. And, and they moved--and Lindsay's kept in touch with him.
BRADEN: In fact, that may be when he's going to the reunion. I think hehad seen Carter in Florida this winter, Lindsay and Beverly went down, and took their boat to Florida this winter. And I think he saw him, then Carter had persuaded him to come to the reunion, I think.
But the people here that I remember, some of 'em I don't even remember,Francis (??) of course. Elbert, that's Bud Willett, that's Jean's 00:50:00husband, was master of--(laughs)--ceremonies ----------(??). Mary Frances Gemeson (??) was kind of a friend of mine, not, I don't remember Milton Cay. The name's familiar. I knew Jean Lloyd. Gather Snyder. Mary Jo Spradly (??) was, she's still around in Anniston. She's, she, she married the guy she went with in high school and ----------(??)--
BRADEN: --some of that, Tom Bridges, and he became a doctor and she wassort of a wheel in Anniston. She was a real nice person, actually. Headed up the medical office there for years and stuff, but she was a real, she was a cheerleader in high school. Athletic and cheerleader and real popular with the boys and all that. Nice person actually. Mary Ann Springer (??) was a good friend of mine. She was Jewish. And, uh--
BRADEN: --weren't many Jewish families there in Louisville, I meanLouisville, I keep saying--Anniston. Um, and she was, um, she moved away. But we were kind of good friends. We, she was very smart and we would study together sometimes. I kind of remember Sam Stickney a 00:51:00little bit. Um. (pause)
FOSL: Well, what I really wanted to show you was, was this thing,because it's of course very romanticized and sentimental and what have you, but I just wondered if you felt that it, you know, if it resonated at all with your own understanding of yourself as a young--
BRADEN: I, I--
BRADEN: --it didn't really. I remember I read it and my mother gave itto me, I think, I don't remember persuading--
FOSL: I mean it's just--
BRADEN: --her to sit on the roof--
FOSL: --clear that she just thought--
BRADEN: --all night and smoke a pack of, maybe I did. I can't rememberpersuading, we did sit on that roof. That was a good place to sit and talk. And I gave her a volume of Shakespeare and I don't remember that.
FOSL: Well, see, it's clear she looks at you or looked at you at thetime as just deadly sophisticated compared to anybody she'd ever known. And she told me in the letter that she sent me and talked to me on the phone, she said it was fictionalized some. 00:52:00
BRADEN: Oh, she's fictionalized the whole thing.
BRADEN: She's talking about Blacksburg.
FOSL: Right, because they told her to fictionalize it.
BRADEN: Oh, and the Murphy--
FOSL: But she said--
FOSL: Yeah. She said to fictionalize, our professor told us tofictionalize places and names.
FOSL: Notice I used Blacksburg. But the personality study is pureand real and exactly the way I felt about her idealistic leanings as a teenager.
BRADEN: Do what?
FOSL: The personality study is pure and real and exactly the way I feltabout her idealistic leanings as a teenager.
BRADEN: Hmm. (pause) Yeah, she was short. She was real cute andlittle. (pause) I don't remember my teeth were crooked. I did wear 00:53:00braces, but they weren't so crooked, they were just protruded a little bit. We had to wear braces. Her teeth were crooked actually, but they were cute. (laughs) (pause). I don't remember (??) this. (pause) 00:54:00That's a comment from her teacher, I guess, right?
BRADEN: Too direct. (laughs)
FOSL: Um-hm. Yeah.
BRADEN: She wrote this in college, did she?--
FOSL: Yeah, first semester.
BRADEN: When she was up here at a Catholic school. That was her--
FOSL: No, I don't know.
BRADEN: --first year.
FOSL: She didn't tell me where.
BRADEN: Oh, she came to Nazareth. Her mo-, (laughs)--and--but shestayed there one year. I think she got along all right, and then she went to the University of Alabama. She ----------(??) social down 00:55:00there. (pause) Yeah, she says I went to Kentucky. Um-hm. (pause) 00:56:00
FOSL: Well, you know, memory's a funny thing. And, one thing, she waswriting it from memory then and--
FOSL: --you know, now with, you know, sixty years or fifty-somethingyears vantage point, who knows. I mean, but I was just curious what your take on that was.
BRADEN: (pause) I think that's the same one that she sent my mother.00:57:00But I don't know and maybe all that happened or something once. We didn't climb up any rose trellis, but the roof there, I did sit out on the roof a lot. Was just, um, when I'd ----------(??) a kind of flat roof and ----------(??) be on the roof. There was a woman at Randolph- Macon named Honey, Honey Watts (??), I can't think of her first name, that was a junior transfer with me. You may want to talk to her some time if you want to talk to somebody at Randolph-Macon. She, um, I hadn't thought of her in years. But she, um, called me back, let's see, last winter. I think it was after I went over there to get that award they gave me. When was that? That was two years ago?
FOSL: It was October of '94.
FOSL: And you say her last name is Watts?00:58:00
BRADEN: Watts. But she's in the little booklet that if I find itfor you, with an address and everything, but she was coming through Louisville. I believe she was coming, and I was out of town, --------- -(??) or something, anyway she left a message on the tape. And she said that she didn't know whether I would remember her, and "This is a voice out of your past, this is Honey Watts." Well, I did remember the name actually. And she said, "And I'm just wondering if you remember those nights--
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ----------(??)
BRADEN: --at Randolph Macon," said this on the tape--[noise]
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you check the fax machine and see if ------------(?) has sent a fax?
BRADEN: um, let's see ----------(??) I think called her back almost----------(??)--
FOSL: ----------(??) before--
BRADEN: No, I think it was before the reunion, ----------(??)----------.But anyway, she got, she remembered a, I remembered those nights that after she, she roomed with, um, she lived next door to Mary Beth Wilson and me and I remember a woman from somewhere in Virginia named Essie, 00:59:00Essie, Essie something Gordon or Essie Gordon something, who's still around. And she wasn't at the reunion, but a good friend of hers was. But anyway, she said "When our roommates would go to sleep and you and I would go down to the end of the hall," and I don't really remember this, I kind of, well, I don't know whether I'm remembering it now, or if she's just put it in my mind, "So that we wouldn't wake them up, and sit there all night smoking cigarettes." (laughs) And I remember me smoking cigarettes. "And talking about, um, changing the world," or something.
BRADEN: I don't remember those conversations, to tell you the truth--(laughs)--or exactly what we're talking about. But there was a lot of talk about things like that actually.
BRADEN: And she was a beautiful woman, or she's, she had long blondehair and a real attractive face, I thought. But she was brilliant. And she, um, ----------(??)---------- but she's--you know, she kind of looked like a beautiful dumb blonde, the stereotype, but she was 01:00:00very brilliant. But I did remember her very well because, and things she had forgotten, so I, I called her, I didn't call her back then. I don't, didn't have time or something, but I guess maybe before, you know, when I was going to the reunion, I called Randolph-Macon and got her number because they do have a good alumni file. And, um, and I called her. I'm trying to think if I called her twice, maybe, no, I called her from over there.
BRADEN: 'Cause there were phones in our room. And I thought, if I don'tdo it now, I'll never get around--
BRADEN: --to it. So I called her 'cause she wasn't there. Anyway, Isaid, "I certainly do remember you." And I said, I said, "Did you marry that guy you were going with then?" Um, and she said, "Yes." He was the son of an ed-, the editor of the paper in Kansas City, whatever that is. Kansas City Star?
FOSL: The Star maybe?
BRADEN: Maybe. Maybe it's The Star. And, but she doesn't, I don't01:01:00think she lives in Kansas City now, but it's somewhere in Kansas. Oh, but she had said on the tape to me that she had talked, that I don't know what she knew about me, I guess, you know, they all heard something about me. But, um, that we talked about how we were gonna change the world and she said, "And you've really done something about it," and said, "I haven't done anything," or something like that, she said. (laughs) Um, but she was real friendly. So I said, "I do remember--(laughs)--you very well." And I said, "Did you marry that guy?" And she said, "Yes." And they're still together and everything. And I can't remember whether he's a newspaperman or a history, he, he's a history buff. But, I said, "Well, I remember you talking about him." I never met him. But I said, "You know, Honey, that was the first, just hearing you talk about him, was the first time I ever knew that you could have a relation-, an intellectual relationship with a man." I said, "That was news to me."
BRADEN: And I said, "I think that helped change my life." (laughs) Isaid, "I just thought men, you just had to, you know, make sure they didn't know you had a brain and stuff." Because I remember, and I said, "I remember you talking about when you all went out on dates, that 01:02:00what you talked about was the books you had just read on history. And I thought that was the most amazing thing I'd ever heard. I mean, I--(laughs)--didn't know you talked about things like that on dates. I thought that sounded fascinating. If I could find a man like that, it might be interesting."
BRADEN: So I said, and she laughed, 'cause that I remembered that. AndI said, "But you ended up marrying him?" And he, she said, "Yes she did." And apparently she's been very happy. I can't remember whether she had, said she had children or not. Hadn't done much. She said I don't know if she was working or not. But anyway, we agreed we'd talk again and I said, "Are you coming to the reunion?" I guess I called her the first day I was over there. She said, no, she had decided not to come. But she's in the little booklet, I believe.
BRADEN: And, um--
FOSL: Yeah, she sounds like a good person to talk to.
BRADEN: Yeah, she'd probably be glad to talk to you. And, and I don't--
FOSL: Where does she--
BRADEN: --she may remember things--
FOSL: --live now?
BRADEN: Somewhere in Kansas. It may be--
FOSL: Oh there's ----------(??)--
BRADEN: --Kansas City. But it's, it's Kansas.
BRADEN: And I'd love to see her actually, some time. But, but, um, Idon't remember a lot about it. But we would, we, we spent a lot of time in each others' rooms. And I was more congenial with her than I 01:03:00was with Mary Beth. I never was particularly congenial with Mary Beth. I liked her all right, but I, I worked all the time at Randolph-Macon, too, and she got a little tired of me, well, then she was real nice about it actually. I'd sit up all night typing and stuff, well that's not too good to have your roommate doing that. But she never objected. It was just that she was more into other things and I was just working a lot.
BRADEN: And then got into the dance group and spent a lot of time onthat, and so we were cordial enough, but we weren't real good friends. And I liked Floy (??). I felt more kinship with Floy (??). So, we all, they were good friends from Memphis, and then I decided to room with Floy (??) that last senior year--
BRADEN: --and I can't remember where Mary Beth, I think Mary Beth cameback her senior year and--
FOSL: Were you all in West Hall?
BRADEN: We were in West that first year, just so--they put us off inthis little wing--
BRADEN: --which was, I was talking to people at reunion. It was reallya bad way to treat junior transfers 'cause we never really felt like we were part of the class. They--
BRADEN: --the rest of the junior class was in another building. Westwas the senior hall. They divided, I don't know how they divide it up now, but then they had different classes in different halls. And they 01:04:00were in East Hall or something while West Hall was seniors. And we were just in this little wing, they didn't know what else to do with, so we were separated from our class. So I never felt close, really, to any of my class, except Swoops. I think I've told you about Swoops.
FOSL: Right, you have.
BRADEN: Who's still around.
FOSL: She's just had--
BRADEN: Well, you met her.
FOSL: --a very serious accident though ----------(??).
BRADEN: Oh, he did? What happened?
FOSL: She's, um, in the hospital recovering from a broken hip.
BRADEN: Oh. Poor Swoops. You met her at that thing you came over for.
FOSL: Yes, and I was just over there a couple weeks ago and tried to seeher and heard about that because I've gotten kind of, um, friendly with a woman who teaches English there who's writing a history, a fairly interesting kind of critical, I mean, you know, laudatory but critical, history of Randolph-Macon.
BRADEN: Oh yeah?
FOSL: Who's good friends, uh, she's more, well she's probably fifty. Imean she's older than me. But she's real close to Shirley Strickland and she talked ----------(??).
BRADEN: Well she was probably a student of Shirley's.
FOSL: Maybe so. Well there's sort of, you know, now they're like someof the most, uh, kind of progressive thinkers, I guess. So they're 01:05:00still, you know, having--
FOSL: --a bond now that they both teach there.
BRADEN: She was apparently a good teacher. She had, and she probably,that woman may have been her student 'cause I know when I was, I guess it was when I was there for that award thing, I don't, spend a little time, you had probably left by then.
BRADEN: I think you'd gone. In somebody's room and we were just talkingabout--
FOSL: Right, you were gonna do that that night.
BRADEN: Yeah ----------(??). And some of the younger people who werethere, who had had Swoops--and nobody called her Swoops. See, that would--embarrassed her when I called her Swoops in my speech. Nobody- -and she said, "Oh, you've really fixed me." Nobody knew she was called Swoops. (laughs) Um, but, who had her as a teacher and said they were terrified of her. Said she terrified 'em. And I thought it was kind of funny, and I told her that in the room. But she said, "That really bothers me." So apparently it kind of hurt her when I said that, that's what she--(laughs)--said. But she was trying to, and then one of the, Ann Sutherland, when she was there, girl from New Orleans, 01:06:00she's the one who had talked to me on the bus going out and was kind of interested that my life had been different from theirs, real friendly. But she had, was talking about that when the year after--no, it may not have been the year. I don't know when Swoops came back there to teach. But it wasn't too long after she finished.
FOSL: No, I think she--it, it would a been about five or six yearsI think.
FOSL: Anyway, she was, had just, it was the first day of school andthe students were just coming in or classes were just convening or something. And Ann (??) was there and, uh, they were real good friends, she and Shirley Strickland. And she hadn't seen her in a long time and she saw her down the hall and she yelled out, "Hey Swoops." (laughs)
BRADEN: She was just, Swoops said she just ruined her day, here she wastrying to be the--
BRADEN: --dignified professor.
BRADEN: You know. So she apparently had a hard time sort of achievinga self confidence I think as a professor. But she was probably a good teacher. And I guess if they were scared of her it was 'cause she probably required a lot or something like that. I don't know. But I'm 01:07:00sorry she broke her hip. That's too bad.
FOSL: But she seemed to be doing well.
BRADEN: She was in an automobile accident? Was that how it happened orsomething else?
FOSL: I don't know. I really don't--
BRADEN: Oh, 'cause people break--
FOSL: --know. I can't remember.
BRADEN: --hips ----------(??).
FOSL: I think she did tell me but I can't remember. But I'm gonna--
BRADEN: You talked to her?
FOSL: No, I talked to Carolyn (??), her friend.
FOSL: But I'm hoping to talk with her later in the summer.
BRADEN: Yeah, I, she's one of the few, uh, few people I can remembersitting up all night talking to, at, um, at Randolph-Macon, you know. It, besides Honey, Honey Watts (??). But my Floy, well, Floy and I would talk about life some. But Floy wasn't as interested in the world. She'd talk about more personal things. Well, we'd talk some about things like that.
FOSL: Well, you know who I did talk--
FOSL: --with is Dot Berea.
BRADEN: Oh yeah, now we were pretty good friends.
BRADEN: And then saw each other again--
FOSL: In Chapel Hill one night--
BRADEN: When we were all there.
FOSL: --you and I were there.
BRADEN: Then. But also I s-, ------------(??)--no, I didn't stay withher. But in 1961 when I was organizing a conference in Chapel Hill-- 01:08:00
FOSL: Oh, she said you stayed with her.
BRADEN: Oh, did I?
BRADEN: Thought I was staying somewhere else. But it, I did stay partof the time there, I guess, yes. That was back in touch with her. She had had a lot of trouble, and separated from her husband or something?
FOSL: But more recently, yeah.
BRADEN: I think when we saw her at the history conference--
FOSL: Yeah, it, that, she--
BRADEN: --she had--
BRADEN: --separated from her husband (??).
FOSL: She seems happy now.
BRADEN: Oh, where did you see here lately?
FOSL: I called her just--
FOSL: --a couple months ago.
BRADEN: Yeah, I'm, I, I didn't feel like I knew her real well in college,to tell you the truth. But she was in the dance group and she was real good. And I'd see her in that context. But I talked to her a lot more when I was there in '61 than I ever had in Randolph-Macon really.
FOSL: Yeah. And she t-, she told me about coming, she danced withMartha Graham's company evidently for some years.
BRADEN: Oh, and came to Louisville.
FOSL: And came to--
BRADEN: I remember that.
FOSL: --Louisville and you went backstage.
BRADEN: Yeah. And then--and she shooed me out because Martha wascoming. Did she tell you that?
FOSL: Oh, she didn't tell me that.
BRADEN: Oh yeah, oh she was glad to see me, Dot was, but she, um, I wentback to see her and she was glad to see me and we was just talking for a minute and then she said, "Oh, go. Leave." 'Cause Martha was coming and she couldn't have guests. I mean Martha-- 01:09:00
BRADEN: --was probably, apparently a real tyrant.
FOSL: Oh, is that right? No, she didn't--
BRADEN: Oh, I think so.
FOSL: --tell me that.
BRADEN: Oh yes.
FOSL: But I was gonna tell you a story that you probably might, youmight have had quite a different experience at Randolph-Macon if you'd been just one year younger. Because I don't know if anybody's ever told you this story, uh, and she just sort of told it to me. But I just, we were about to hang up, just as an afterthought, but, you know, she was a year behind you and uh, the following year, the dance group won some sort of contest in which a lot, I think, I can't remember she said four or seven colleges nationwide were going to all perform together in New York. It was quite--
FOSL: --an honor.
FOSL: And in the end, guess what, one of those schools was Howard andRandolph-Macon wouldn't go.
BRADEN: Oh, really?
BRADEN: They didn't go?
FOSL: --they wouldn't go.
BRADEN: They didn't go to any of it?
BRADEN: Oh my goodness, so they didn't get to go.
BRADEN: That's something.
FOSL: And it was a real, you know, traumatic experience for thestudents. They just didn't--you know.
FOSL: Because as you said, it's a different generation and they weren'tso attached to these kinds of, you know.
BRADEN: Hmm, I'd never heard that.
FOSL: Yeah, so she, she told me that story. So I was kind of interestedin that.
BRADEN: It's funny I didn't hear that. See, Harriet would have knownabout that and I'd, I was sort of, I wasn't in touch with Harriet in that period. It's a wonder I didn't hear about that.
FOSL: Yeah, I'm surprised you didn't.
BRADEN: And I was back over there, saw Struppa, you know, in the years.I went over, Struppa asked me to write up something about something they were doing and I did. Some kind of dance magazine, ---------- (??)---------- something. I'm surprised I didn't hear about that, but I never did. Well they probably didn't want to talk about it much to tell you the truth.
FOSL: No, they didn't want to talk about it. They tried to keep it realhush-hush evidently. And Struppa, she, it wasn't she who--
FOSL: --you know--
BRADEN: I don't think she would have done that at all.
FOSL: Yeah. She, she just, like, didn't even know how to talk to thestudents about what had happened. She was very--
FOSL: --traumatized by it, too.
BRADEN: ----------(??) think ----------(??)--
FOSL: Well. Now that I've--01:11:00
[End of Interview.]