Interview with Julian Bond, September 14, 1997

FOSL: ----------(??)---------- things to start. ----------(??)-------- -- Um, so I, I just wonder if you would think back to what's your first memory of meeting Anne.

BOND: I think it would have been, was she at the Raleigh conference where SNNC was going on?

FOSL: She was not.

BOND: Okay. Well, then--

FOSL: She was having a daughter. And she was at the, uh, but she was at the one in Georgia in October.

BOND: Okay, in October of 1960.

FOSL: Yeah.

BOND: Um, I just remember this, uh, white, attractive woman who smoked.

FOSL: A lot. (laughs)

BOND: And, who, you know, seemed to be right on the point, you know, with, you know, in these meetings we'd have, and we would meet endlessly. You know, people would talk and ramble and so on. And she just always seemed to be right on the point.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: And I can't remember an actual, you know, this is an introduction. I don't remember that at all.

FOSL: Oh, you don't, okay.

BOND: But somehow or another knew who she was. And I'm not really sure what I knew about her initially. I later found out, and I'm not sure where I found this out from, either, that she was a leftist.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: And could have been a Communist.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: And probably not a person, you know, we wanted to be associated with, 'cause it would be bad for us.

FOSL: Okay.

BOND: And--

FOSL: But that was after meeting her?

BOND: After the initial meeting, but probably fairly soon after.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: And I can't remember who would say this to us. It would have to be an adult. And who, I have no idea.

FOSL: -----------(??)------------

BOND: I wish I knew, too. I wish I could remember. But I also remember that it didn't cut any ice with me or us that, uh, you know, I think we had heard this about other people. And they were good people.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: So, whether it was true or not, it didn't make any difference. But I do remember hearing that, the Bradens.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: "Watch out for the Bradens." Uh, and it could have been someone 00:02:00from the Southern Regional Council.

FOSL: Yeah. -----------(??).

BOND: But I, I don't wanna say that it was.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: But it could well have been. 'Cause I can't think of anyone in the black Atlanta community--

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: --who would have said that. People in the black Atlanta community did warn us about Reds.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: But not about the Bradens. I don't know if they knew--

FOSL: Right.

BOND: --the Bradens, or knew anything about them.

FOSL: Well, she was pretty close to K-, both the Kings--

BOND: Yeah, no--

FOSL: I know she was.

BOND: --wouldn't have been Daddy King or Martin. No. So anyway, that's when I met her. And I, I have a terrible memory.

FOSL: Okay.

BOND: But, you know, I just saw her over and over and over again after that.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: And she became close to us when she enabled us to hire Bob Zellner.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: I think we saw more of her. And, uh, just over the years, I just saw her.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: And I don't, didn't see Carl much. Uh, on occasions he'd sort 00:03:00of breeze through. But, uh, I don't have much of an impression of him except as a rumpled guy. He was a rumpled guy.

FOSL: Is that right?

BOND: He always looked rumpled.

FOSL: Nobody's said that to me.

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: -----------(??).

BOND: But he, I don't know, maybe he wasn't. But I remember him as being a rumpled guy.

FOSL: Okay. Whereas she--

BOND: Disheveled.

FOSL: --I always get the impression, always looked pretty ele-, elegant.

BOND: Yes, yes. Extremely presentable.

FOSL: Always sophisticated in a way.

BOND: And it's not that he was disreputable.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: But he was rumpled.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: He looked like a, a college professor or--

FOSL: A newspaper reporter.

BOND: An, yeah, an absentminded guy. He looked like an absentminded guy.

FOSL: Yeah, that's so interesting.

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: Um, so we can't pinpoint where you heard these rumors.

BOND: No.

FOSL: But it appears that a reputation did not precede her.

BOND: Hmm.

FOSL: Um, now, she has written and, and talked about an occasion, I guess it was in planning for that October meeting. It was in Atlanta, right?

BOND: Yes, yeah.

FOSL: That October SNCC conference in which there was some debate in SNCC as to whether she and SCEF should have observer status.

BOND: Hmm.

FOSL: Do you remember any of that?

BOND: No, I don't. But, uh, perhaps her reputation did precede her. Perhaps that's when I first heard--

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: --about--

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: --the Bradens. They're always a couple.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: It's always the Bradens.

FOSL: Right. That's right.

BOND: You know. Um--

FOSL: Huh.

BOND: So I, I don't remember that, no. But it couldn't, you know, well, I could, well, have been there. I tended, during my career with SNCC, to try to avoid these interminable meetings. Because they seemed to me to just go on and on and on and on. By the way, have you talked to Jane Stembridge?

FOSL: No, but I am going to contact her.

BOND: Okay.

FOSL: I just got her address and phone number this summer from Connie (??).

BOND: Yeah. I just got a letter from, I just got her to write to the King Center to her--

FOSL: Oh, good.

BOND: --as SNCC's first employee to protest--

FOSL: Well, I'm, I'm really looking forward to talking with her. I hope that she will talk with me. Because, you know, she and Anne were 00:05:00so close.

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: And, and had rema-, and have remained close.

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: I'm not sure that they're really close anymore, but remained close all through the eighties--

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: --anyway.

BOND: Okay.

FOSL: So, yeah, she's definitely on my list. Because, see, with Anne, doing a full-scale biography, there's so many years before this--

BOND: Yes.

FOSL: --that I really am only just now beginning to do the interviews of the SNCC years.

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: So you're really the second person--

BOND: Oh, okay. (laughs)

FOSL: You know ----------(??) but--

BOND: Well, I, I hope I'm helpful. But, I tell ya, it's, it's all going.

FOSL: Um-hm. Well, could you say a little bit more to, to describe the atmosphere surrounding the Bradens?

BOND: Oh gee. Um, well, whoever it was who said this, or maybe it could have been several people--

FOSL: Right.

BOND: --who said this about 'em, didn't always insist that they themselves were bad.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: It was that association with them was bad.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: And they might be perfectly fine people. But if you associated with them, you would be tainted with their taint.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: And, just this feeling that they were marginalized--

FOSL: Right.

BOND: --important to the ongoing larger movement, but marginalized within it. Not admitted to the high councils, whatever they were. And, uh, the movement, at least among whites, was divided into a kind of button-down, I'm just having this thought, a kind of button-down SRC type of person. A professional person whose job it was to be active in the movement, and who probably was, you know, movement inclined. And then the Bradens, who, on the one hand, were not button-downed, and for whom this was more than a job.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: This was a life commitment. And again, I don't want to suggest the SRC people were bad people.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: But, this was more a professional commitment you felt, I felt, to them. And to the Bradens, this was life. This was their life. 00:07:00There's no difference between the life and the work. It was all one and the same.

FOSL: Um-hm .

BOND: And, uh, I think I was attracted to Anne because of the Patriot, which I admired, not only, because of its content but its design.

FOSL: Yeah ----------(??).

BOND: And I was going to be the SNCC guy who did the publications--

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: --and so on. And early on, I developed an appreciation for neatness and clarity and precision and attractiveness. Uh, because I always thought if the thing doesn't look good, nobody will read it.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: And I just like that. And I had some sense of what it would be like to put that out.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: And, uh, wanted to, us to put out something of equal quality. It was high quality. Uh, so it was more than just the politics of it, but it was the quality of it, too.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: So I was attracted to her for that reason. I don't think we ever talked about it. But, uh, I just liked it. I liked the slick paper.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: I thought, Gee, that must be expensive. But it couldn't be too expensive, or else, why did they do it? So, you know, just felt drawn to it and her, uh, because of the way the thing looked.

FOSL: Now had you studied journalism?

BOND: No. No, not at all. But prior to, uh, coming to the movement, well, no. The Atlanta Student Movement engendered a boycott of the black newspaper in Atlanta--

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: --because it was hostile to us. And, during the period of the boycott, we got real estate men to take their ads out of the paper, and white realtors began to sell houses to blacks. So these guys said, "Hey, we need a vehicle." So, we formed, or helped formed, the Atlanta Inquirer newspaper.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: And I worked for that paper. So I had some sense of design and layout and so forth and so on. Uh, and I knew it was difficult to do. And, uh, but I never studied it.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: Uh, I just did it. I had the experience of doing it.

FOSL: Okay. Well, um, pursuing this question of the atmosphere, could 00:09:00you say a little bit about the atmosphere, um, surrounding anti- Communism or the breadth of Communism, in general, as you perceived it as a, what--

BOND: Well--

FOSL: --twenty-year-old.

BOND: Yeah. I, I don't think perceived it with any degree of sophistication at all.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: I knew there were people in Atlanta, teachers at Spellman, I can't remember their name, it just got away from me, a white couple, who, uh, were, I thi-, the name began with a W, I think. Um, and, maybe it'll come to me. And they were identified as leftist.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: Could be Communists, but leftist. And they were very active in movement activity.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: And I can remember the, ------------(??) something like Churnoff (??) or something. Anyway, they'd write letters to the Atlanta Constitution, the Journal.

FOSL: Was it Whitkoff (??) ----------(??) ?

BOND: No, not, not, not the Witkoffs (??).

FOSL: Okay.

BOND: Not Witkoff (??). Uh--

FOSL: I didn't know they were, I didn't think they were--

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: --associated with Spellman, but--

BOND: No. This was a couple, I think he or she taught there. And they weren't there very long, couple a years, maybe. Um, and they'd write letters to the editor, and they're usually good letters, and occasionally they'd write a letter about war and peace issues.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: Um, nuclear b-, bans or something like that--

FOSL: Right.

BOND: --or the other, you know, a wider scope of things than you normally saw in the Atlanta Constitution or Journal, uh, letters column. And there would be the occasional article, uh, maybe this is later on, written by Bill Shipp.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: Who was the chief red-baiter. And he was, I believe, the conduit for HUAC material.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: Because he usually wrote the articles that quoted HUAC sources that, and I'm sure he was the HUAC source. And I know he was the FBI source or the outlet--

FOSL: Hmm.

BOND: --for FBI material.

FOSL: I didn't know that.

BOND: Uh, I've been trying to get the time together to interview him about FBI-Atlanta Constitution connections, which are frightening. I've got all the files--

FOSL: Wow.

BRADEN: --too. It's frightening. Anyway, so, there was this couple. And we were told, you know, "That couple, they're good people, but just don't--

FOSL: Right.

BOND: --be associated with 'em, because then you will be tainted." And I do remember Samuel Williams, philosophy professor at Morehouse, taught me in a philosophy course with Martin Luther King. He had been King's professor at Morehouse.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: King taught in the fall of '61--

FOSL: ----------(??).

BOND: --for one semester at Morehouse. There were six people in the class. I was one of the six.

FOSL: Wow.

BOND: I'm one of six people in the world who was a student of Martin Luther King.

FOSL: That is fascinating.

BOND: Yes, I always tell (??) my students.

FOSL: I never knew that.

BOND: They love it. Uh, but I, and Sam Williams was president of the NAACP.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: And, his widow is now married to Hank Aaron. Ooh. Anyway, uh, I remember him warning us about associations with Communists. And he drew among, upon his own experiences with the Progressive Party.

FOSL: Is that right?

BOND: Yes. I do remember this. That Communists, in his telling, had taken over the Progressive Party, and it was a bad thing to be associated with 'em. They dominated, they took over, they, you know, manipulated, and you didn't wanna be around them. He didn't say, "Don't mess with the Bradens."

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: He's not the one. But he gave us a general warning. Then at that October meeting, we had extended an invitation to Bayard Rustin to speak.

FOSL: ----------(??)----------.

BOND: And I think it was the UAW who said, "If you invite Rustin, we're not gonna give you money for this conference." And I think without a thought, we said, "Okay, we'll disinvite her."

FOSL: Right.

BOND: And I can remember not having any qualms about it. To my sh-, shame and sorrow now.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: But at the time, saying, "What's the big deal? We'll just tell him he can't come. We'll take the money. (Fosl laughs) No problem."

FOSL: That's so interesting. (laughs)

BOND: No problem. Uh--

FOSL: I--

BOND: --and it's embarrassing to say it now, but, but, you know, that was the attitude.

FOSL: Yes.

BOND: And I think it was the attitude of most other people. So we 00:13:00didn't have a highly developed consciousness--

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: --about this. And it really isn't until James Forman comes along, who's older than we are, who's had other experiences with other groups--

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: --and causes, who's from Chicago. We're all sort of southern naive--

FOSL: Right.

BOND: --people. (laughs) It wasn't--

FOSL: He must have known the Bradens.

BOND: Yes. Yes, he had known the Bradens. So it's not till he comes along that we have a heightened consciousness about anti-Communist, red-baiting, what it means--

FOSL: Um-hm.

BRADEN: --its divisive nature and so on. So in this early period, we just have these people saying, "Don't get involved with Communists."

FOSL: Right.

BOND: Somebody saying, "The Bradens could be Communists. And regardless of whether they're good people or not, stay away from 'em. Keep 'em out. Because they will taint you and it'll hurt what you're trying to do."

FOSL: Right.

BOND: So we're a fairly unsophisticated people.

FOSL: So you would sort of attribute that change to Forman?

BOND: Yes. As much as anybody else--

FOSL: Right.

BOND: --it's Forman, yeah.

FOSL: Okay. Good. Good. -----------(??)------------ I think Clay's 00:14:00book makes that, doesn't make that so clear. Um, because my next question was how and when did that change?

BOND: Well, again, I'm, I'm, I think it's almost all attributable to Forman--

FOSL: Um-hm.

BRADEN: --that he had a degree of sophistication and world knowledge that, you know, said, "This is not right. If these people are helping us, let 'em come ahead. We need the help." And, uh, he helped dissipate this sort of naive and uninformed sense that, if somebody says somebody's bad, they're bad--

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: --and so we should stay away from them.

FOSL: And it was in '61 that--

BOND: Yes. Yeah.

FOSL: --Forman came around?

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: And he was the one who hired you.

BOND: Um-hm. Yes.

FOSL: Okay.

BOND: Yeah. He, uh, looked in the files and saw my name and called me up and ruined my life. (Both laugh)

FOSL: Now, so, how would you describe the evolution of Anne's relationship with SNCC in those years? You've mentioned this 00:15:00attraction--

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: --to the Patriot. And--

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: --you know, I guess my own feeling, and I talked with Mike Honey about this a lot, is, what an enormous contribution Anne made in the way of contributing sort of media--

BOND: Yes.

FOSL: ----------(??)----------.

BOND: You know, the regular press would only print news of spectacular things--

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: --sensational things, arrest, or protest, or so on. And Anne and the Patriot, you know, covered us in an analytical way--

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: --printed news about our activities. And, for a while, it was our only regular outlet.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: Uh, the National Guardian--

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: --began to do so. Uh--

FOSL: Which of course she wrote some of that.

BOND: Yeah. The, um, Pittsburgh Courier--

FOSL: Right.

BOND: --uh, had a column by a man named Trezzvant Anderson.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: Which covered Georgia news. And he would include stuff. Every now and then we'd get a press release in the Pittsburgh Courier.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: But, uh, uh, she was the only outlet we had. And, you know, I have no idea what their circulation was. What was it in the early--

FOSL: Well, it wa-, really was pretty low--

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: --like about, you know, 2,000--

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: --to 4,000.

BOND: But that was 2,000 more people than we had--

FOSL: Right.

BOND: --finding out who we were, what we are.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: And I think she helped to define who we were for this audience.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: And probably for a broader audience.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: And it was very helpful to us, because it was, the definition we had of ourselves. (laughs)

FOSL: Right.

BOND: You know? So those vanguard, cutting edge, old group challenging, not just the segregation system, but challenging these older organizations, too, like the NAACP--

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: --and others who were there. Uh, and that was very important to us.

FOSL: Because it does seem to me that one thing, and I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but, that is, it's just a, an idea I have, so 00:17:00tell me if I'm on the right track, is that part of what helped dispel this fear about Anne and Carl was that there is, there is this whole rhetoric about Communists take over--

BOND: Hmm.

BOND: --whatever they get involved with, and they so bent over backwards--

BOND: Yes.

FOSL: --to grant you all a kind of autonomy--

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: --that you were still struggling against, I mean for in--

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: --many of the other organizations.

BOND: And it was so different from the typical adult. We're very conscious, although we're, you know, nineteen, twenty-years-old, we're adults.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: But we're very conscious of this student adult.

FOSL: Right, yeah.

BOND: Even after we have dropped out of school--(Fosl laughs)--we're still c-, we're students. The rest of the world is adults. And, they are unique in this adult world in not imposing--

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: --on us.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: Making suggestions, "Why not this? Why not that? How about this? How about this?" But not imposing on us.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: And every other adult did that. Even the best, well-meaning 00:18:00person, did that.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: But they didn't do it. They didn't do it. They're very conscious of letting us fly, letting us--

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: --do what we would.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: And that was much, much appreciated. You know, you just felt that they were more sympathetic to our idea of who we were than anyone else, any other adult. I'm surprised how pronounced that gap was between student and adult.

FOSL: Yeah. You know, when I interviewed Connie, she talks about that because she was, what, four years older--

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: --or something?

BOND: Oh yeah.

FOSL: Four, five, six tops. I forget exactly. But she felt that she was more, like, with Ella.

BOND: Yes.

FOSL: Because she was--

BOND: Yeah. Yes--

FOSL: --an adult--

BOND: Yeah, see--

FOSL: --a professional.

BOND: A gap between Connie Curry and Ella Baker was smaller than the gap between us and Connie Curry.

FOSL: I was amazed by that.

BOND: I am, too. (laughs) Now that I think about it. (Fosl laughs) But it's true. It's true.

FOSL: Yeah. Okay. Well, um, so, so you just don't recall any of the debate about--

BOND: No.

FOSL: --including--

BOND: No.

FOSL: Anne in that October conference?

BOND: No, I know it, it came. I, at least I'm pretty sure it occurred. But I don't--

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: I don't remember any of it.

FOSL: Um-hm. Uh--

BOND: You know what would be great if you could find him, and I'm trying to find him, is Edward B. King, who was the--

FOSL: Oh, I've thought about it, yeah.

BOND: --first guy.

FOSL: Yes.

BOND: But I have no idea where he is or anything. I have a friend who's an Internet whiz.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: And, uh, you know Margaret Herring.

FOSL: Ooh, that, the, oh, the--

BOND: Margaret Lauren.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: My good friend Margaret Lauren.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: Well, Margaret is an e-mail correspondent. And she's tracking down, she tracked down Phil Hutchings, who was the last chair of SNCC for me--

FOSL: Huh.

BOND: --on the Internet.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: And now I've got her tracking down Edward King.

FOSL: Oh, boy.

BOND: Yeah. So if I find him, I'll let you know. (laughs)

FOSL: Well, you know, it seems like Jane isn't in touch with him at all?

BOND: I wouldn't think so. Uh, no. I don't, I don't know, but I wouldn't think so.

FOSL: Well, they just were, you know.

BOND: I think 'cause they passed, you know, they, one came and the other left.

FOSL: I see. Okay. Well now, you said you didn't have much contact 00:20:00with Carl.

BOND: Hmm. No.

FOSL: So, would you say that, in general, I mean, not that you can really speak for SNCC as a whole--

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: --but would, you know, if you're gonna sort of just guesstimate about it, would you say that he, he was considered differently than ----------(??) was (??)--

BOND: Oh yeah, yeah.

FOSL: And, and would you say was--

BOND: And again, I'm not sure if this is a fair--

FOSL: (coughs) I'm sorry (??).

BOND: --depiction of who he was. But my impression of him was that he was kind of brusque.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: And almost abrupt.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: And that she was the opposite of that.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: And that she was just an easier person to get along with. And ag-, again, I don't mean that he was hard to get along with. But of the two of them, you felt better toward her--

FOSL: Right.

BOND: --than him.

FOSL: Right. Well, you know, she's got this great story about, like, Carl would write, you know, he would write the one-page letter just saying, you know, "Screw you," to somebody

BOND: Hmm.

FOSL: --and then she would, like, be up the whole next night writing the twenty-page letter--(laughs)--

BOND: Yeah

FOSL: --apologizing--

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: --for it. So, you know, you definitely were, um, you're definitely on the right track there. Um, okay, so what sort of impact would you say that Anne had on SNCC politics?

BOND: Well, um, uh, many different ones. She, I think, was just constant reminder that here are white southerners who aren't hostile.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: And there were others, but, you know, she was just firm, strong, right there, all the time. Uh, she, you know, helped us create a view of who we were. She helped create a view of who we were. And she helped sell us to this, to the larger--

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: --public that we had to have. If we were gonna raise money, if we're gonna, you know, have political support, and so on. And she helped create this image of ourselves that we very, very badly needed. 00:22:00I think she helped us, not so much through her, anything she said, but just through her persona and her actions, overcome this kind of simplistic anti-Communism.

FOSL: Um-hm. Um-hm.

BOND: Uh, just by the person that she was, as an example of a person who, you know, was just a good person. And, made these things others said about the two of them just not true.

FOSL: Hmm.

BOND: It just wasn't our experience that what others had said about Communists generally, or the Bradens in particular, just wasn't true. That it was in our interest to cooperate with them. It was in our disinterest to alienate ourselves or to distance ourselves from them.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: So she, you know, she helped inform our politics. She helped create a picture of who we were. She helped remind us that all white southerners weren't bad. Um, she had a big, big affect on us.

FOSL: What about, how do you see her role, if it was relevant at all, in move, you know, helping to move SNCC towards a greater, um, dealing with issues other than segregation?

BOND: I'm sure she did, but I can't speak to it. I don't, uh, I don't remember that. I thought you were leading up to say toward economic questions.

FOSL: Well, that's really what--

BOND: For example.

FOSL: Yes, that is what--

BOND: And I'm sure she did, but I can't speak to it.

FOSL: Okay.

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: So, you know, to sort of vague process.

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: That--

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: --nobody really talked about. Well, um, in terms of, you, you've mentioned Forman as being a very pivotal figure in sort of broadening SNCC's view--

BOND: Hmm.

FOSL: --about who you should associate with.

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: Um, and, and, so, I'm not sure that this will be a question. But I had jotted down, like, what sort of impact did she have on, um, sort 00:24:00of broadening SNCC's relationships with other groups and people?

BOND: I think she and he talked a lot--

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: --conferred a lot. And I think, and this is without knowing it solidly, that she was extremely helpful to him in saying, "Why don't you talk to this person--

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: --or this journalist--

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: Or we've always found this journalist to be a fair person. Uh, or you can do this here. Or here's a group of people here." And she had this contacts over the region that he didn't have--

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: --that we didn't have. And that Ella Baker didn't have. Well, some of 'em, the same. But she knew people Ella didn't know. And she was able to say, "Jim, here's John Smith or Joe Blow in this place--

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: --or whatever, and they would be good for this," and so forth, so on. So she widened our, our list of political contacts.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: And personal contacts, fundraising contacts. And she exposed us 00:25:00to journalists and writers who would be sympathetic to us.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: People we didn't have any idea, or didn't know anything about. And, you know, she, I think she, you know, by, not by saying, "You know, I'm a good person, you can trust me," but by being a good person who you could trust, helped convince us to take more and more people on faith.

FOSL: Um-hm. ----------(??).

BOND: Uh, and, you know, we, through, throughout all of SNCC's first five years, you kept getting these warnings about this, that, or the other group, who are leftist, or radical, or nationalist--

FOSL: Right.

BOND: --or whatever, subversive, or whatever. And, you know, after the first year or so, it didn't matter. And Anne had an enormous amount to do with that just by her, her presence and her personality. More so than saying, "You know, you ought to take people on--

FOSL: Right.

BOND: --face (??)." She didn't preach this. She served as an example 00:26:00of it.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: And the example was very telling.

FOSL: Um-hm. Well, in terms of the media contacts that she, um, I mean, I guess by the time you came along on the SNCC staff--

BOND: Hmm.

FOSL: --they'd probably already had a press list, or did they?

BOND: I don't know.

FOSL: I think it ----------(??)--

BOND: Maybe a small one. Uh, but I don't think, not a very established one. And if so, probably, chiefly Atlanta--

FOSL: Um-hm. Um-hm.

BOND: --media people, reporters for the Journal Constitution, who had written a story or two.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: Uh, maybe the ----------(??) and the New York Times guy in Atlanta. Maybe the Newsweek and Time bureau chiefs. Uh, and maybe the AP guy's name. But not a very broad list. But I have, I think when Forman came along, that he would talk to her and she'd say, "You know, in Louisville, this is a good person here," or, "Stay away from this person."

FOSL: Right.

BOND: Or, or whatever. Um--

FOSL: And they had a real, uh, line into the York--

BOND: Gazette and Daily.

FOSL: --Gazette Daily.

BOND: James (??) Higgins.

FOSL: Yeah.

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: They were really regular--

BOND: Yes.

FOSL: --contributors to that--

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: --and, and always promoted it. It's probably for the best.

BOND: Well, and also, and I don't know if this came from Anne or not, but they would, you know, ask the Associated Press to cover a story, and that meant that not only did they get it, but every paper in the country got it. So if the York Gazette and Daily asked the AP to cover something in Chicken Switch (??), Mississippi, it went all over the AP wire.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: And, uh, it didn't take us long to figure that out.

FOSL: Yeah. Yeah, they had a couple people. I guess there was another one in Nashville. I, I'm blanking on that guy's name, that was a very sympathetic reporter.

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: And, uh, um, and by asking him to cover something, that would mean it would go, you know--

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: --that AP would do something with it.

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: And it would go out on the wire. So, but I guess what I was, what 00:28:00I wasn't able to find that I was wanting to find in the SNCC papers was a clear evidence that they had given you all--

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: --their press list. But it seems to me to be the case, I mean--

BOND: Could, could very well have, I don't know.

FOSL: It, it looks like it.

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: But, there was nothing in there that said, "Here's our press." You know?

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: So I was just curious. But--

BOND: Just, while I'm thinking about it, have you looked into the Sovereignty Commission files?

FOSL: I--

BOND: When did you talk to Connie last?

FOSL: I talked to her in August.

BOND: Well, she--

FOSL: -- earlier August--early August.

BOND: --has just gotten her Sovereignty Commission file.

FOSL: Oh, really?

BOND: And she gave me a sixty-page hand-written report on her--

FOSL: Wow.

BOND: --which is full of information about SOC, about SCEF.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: Most of it is just, "John Smith came to the meeting. He's a member of the Communist-funded organization SCEF."

FOSL: Right.

BOND: Or, "William Howard Melish."

FOSL: Right.

BOND: Or--

FOSL: Sure.

BOND: The son. Did he have a son? Did Melish have a son?

FOSL: I'm not aware of his son being in ----------(??)----------.

BOND: Or somebody who's the son of some SCEF-connected person. But 00:29:00they're interesting, interesting stuff.

FOSL: Wow. Because I did appeal for Anne's, I sent in--

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: --that request by the deadline.

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: Asking for a Sovereignty Commission file.

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: And I faxed it to her, and got her signature, and it--

BOND: Hmm.

FOSL: --it's in there.

BOND: Well, she should have hers by now.

FOSL: But we haven't heard back. I, I just talked to her yesterday.

BOND: She should have it by now.

FOSL: Well, I'm gonna call her today.

BOND: Because I've had mine for almost a month.

FOSL: They should be--

BOND: Most people--

FOSL: --sending them to her.

BOND: --have theirs, yes. Yes.

FOSL: Well, she ought to call 'em.

BOND: Yes.

FOSL: 'Cause I don't believe, I, I think she would have told me if she'd gotten it.

BOND: Yeah, I don't know.

FOSL: I'm sure she would have.

BOND: Well, maybe it's stuck in a--

FOSL: Because--

BOND: --shelf someplace.

FOSL: --and also, there might be some holdup because she had asked for both hers and also Carl's, as the executor of his--

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: --estate, and any on SCEF. And they were a little bit more unclear as to whether they were there gonna--

BOND: They told me couldn't ask for a deceased person's file.

FOSL: Is that right?

BOND: Because I wanted, I figured I'd ask for every dead person I knew. And they told me I couldn't ask for an organization's file.

FOSL: Well, I think they said that to her, too. But they, I don't know that they said that about the dead person, because she was being a--

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: an, her being executor of his estate.

BOND: Yeah. I think it'd be different, probably different for her.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: Uh--

FOSL: But they could still be using that as a kind of a red tape.

BOND: You know (??), Margaret Lauren told me, from her dealings with the FBI, you just have to keep going back--

FOSL: Right.

BOND: --and going back, and going back.

FOSL: That's right. (coughs) Excuse me. Well, I really will follow up on that, 'cause she should have 'em. Um, now, in terms of any debate that took place about accepting the white-student grant--

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: --do you remember anything?

BOND: I don't remember anything about it. I mean, it could have been a heated debate, or, or not. I don't--

FOSL: Hmm.

BOND: --remember anything about it.

FOSL: -----------(??) Um, well, in terms of SCEF, not, not Anne, not the Patriot--

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: --but in terms of SCEF, what was the relationship there? I mean, was it only through Anne--

BOND: I think it was through Anne.

FOSL: Although there is a--

BOND: And--

FOSL: --good bit of correspondence with Jim Dombrowski. And they were 00:31:00constantly--

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: --giving money to -----------(??)-----------.

BOND: Yes. And, and Dombrowski, um, you know, and, money from, from them. But it was he, it was she--

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: it was she, she is the, the embodiment of it.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: She is it. And, so, I always thought about, I don't think I thought about SCEF much--

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: --as much as I thought about Anne. Carl and Anne, and then Anne. And SCEF was, you know, there, and it had these people, and it had these contacts. And Dombrowski, you know, was in New Orleans.

FOSL: Right

BOND: --but--

FOSL: Right.

BOND: --it was much more nebulous.

FOSL: Okay.

BOND: She was the reality.

FOSL: Well, tell me this. Um, d-, do you think it would be useful to interview Jim Forman?

BOND: Yes. You know, he, uh, has been ill. And you have to keep him on the point. But, oh yeah. Oh yeah.

FOSL: You think so?

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: 'Cause I've never met him. And you, you hear varied things about his--

BOND: He's okay. You have to keep bringing him back. And you can do it. You can do it.

FOSL: And he's still in Washington?

BOND: Yes, he's still in Washington. He taught last semester at AU.

FOSL: Is that right?

BOND: In the anthropology department.

FOSL: I would love the opportunity to meet him.

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: Okay.

BOND: But you should.

FOSL: Yeah, I really. I--

BOND: No, he would be good. He would be very good.

FOSL: Okay. Well, um--

BOND: You ought to try, I don't know if, or it may be hard to do. You ought to talk to Marion Barry.

FOSL: I was wondering about that.

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: I was wondering about that. He would be a hard person to get to.

BOND: He'd be a hard person to get to. But, uh, I don't know how his recollection of these early years is. But why shouldn't he be okay?

FOSL: Right.

BOND: Uh, and he could probably tell you things that I--

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: --that most, that many people could not.

FOSL: Um-hm. Well, I think Jane is gonna be the same way.

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: In that very early period, anyway.

BOND: And also Chuck McDew.

FOSL: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Yeah--

BOND: And John Lewis.

FOSL: I've got a list.

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: I definitely have a list. But I hadn't really thought about, too hard about pursuing Marion Barry. Maybe I should actually think more about that. Um, did y'all, so, so you all really never felt any 00:33:00particular difficulty as you personally can remember it, in dealing with SCEF?

BOND: No. No. As I can remember it, none at all.

FOSL: Now, it, my, my guess is that you weren't really a part of, of this, but I just wanna ask you, just in case.

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: Because in the summer of '62--

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: --there was a big flap about a trip that Carl had taken with Bob Moses--

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: --who's also--

BOND: Yes.

FOSL: --I have spoken with Bob, and we have a plan to do the interview, but I haven't done it yet, uh, through Mississippi.

BOND: Yes.

FOSL: And remember this got out to the press.

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: And the VEP was happening at that time, and had already sort of excluded SCEF--

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: --by virtue of not inviting them to join.

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: And then, like, rather than becoming upset about whom, however this leak happened, whether the Mississippi Sovereignty Commission, or whoever it was that sort of used that, I guess The Jacksonville News more than anybody.

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: You know, that everybody sort of turned on Anne and Carl and said, "You did this--

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: --you know, on purpose." And there's a passionate series of exchanges between her and Willie Branton (??).

BOND: Um-hm. I just remember it happening.

FOSL: You do?

BOND: But nothing more about it. Yeah.

FOSL: So you don't really--

BOND: And in fact, I don't know ever remember, and it would have been either myself or Mary who would have done it, I don't remember any journalists ever asking about it.

FOSL: Huh.

BOND: You know, it could have happened. I don't remember that ever happening.

FOSL: Yeah, I don't think the Jacksonville Daily News would have bothered to--

BOND: No, no they--(laughs)--

FOSL: (laughs) You know, they just print it.

BOND: You know, I thought perhaps somebody would have read that and said, "Well, what about this?"

FOSL: Right.

BOND: And what about--

FOSL: Huh. Because I'm just, you know, I'd like to take, speak to someone who could really, um, unpack that--

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: --a little bit for me, but I haven't.

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: It's not that I've tried real hard, either, by the way.

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: But, but I haven't quite known who to talk to.

BOND: Yeah, I don't know if this is, uh, this guy was there then. Do 00:35:00you know Pat Watters?

FOSL: Um, I know who he is.

BOND: Okay. He may be able to contribute something from the VEP side.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: As--

FOSL: Yeah.

BOND: Um, another guy, I'm not sure if he was at the VEP or SRC, is Emory Ve-, Via--

FOSL: Say it again? I--

BOND: Emory V-i-a. He was the research director, maybe during this period.

FOSL: I--

BOND: I've just gotten on the board of SRC.

FOSL: Oh Okay.

BOND: Yes. Uh, and somebody else is Paul Gaston here.

FOSL: Right. I, I hadn't thought about that, actually.

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: He's a delightful person. I would love to actually--(laughs)-- talk with him.

BOND: And very protective of SRC.

FOSL: See, that's an issue right there.

BOND: Yes.

FOSL: But, Anne has made her peace--

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: --with the SRC.

BOND: Yes.

FOSL: But--

BOND: She's a life fellow--

FOSL: Right.

BOND: Or a fellow.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: Or whatever.

FOSL: Life fellow, I think it is.

BOND: Yeah, life fellow.

FOSL: But I don't think that that takes away--

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: --what happened.

BOND: No, no. ----------(??).

FOSL: ----------(??)----------- was very eloquent, actually, about that in his presentation of that award (??). But anyway, um, okay, any other specific stories you remember about this early, you know--

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: --dealing with Anne?

BOND: No, I told you I--

FOSL: You know, I found a little bit of the correspondence. And I noticed that in, you know, say mid-'62, you were still calling her Mrs. Braden--

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: --you know.

BOND: Yeah. (laughs)

FOSL: And how did that change?

BOND: I don't know.

FOSL: I mean you and Anne had been friends for years.

BOND: Yes. I don't know. But, you know, I was thinking about Howard Zinn?

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: I could not call him Howard.

FOSL: Is that right?

BOND: That is right. Because he had been my former wife's teacher. And when I met him, he was a teacher.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: A professor at Spellman. He was Dr. Zinn. And to make the transition from Dr. Zinn to Howard, I, I couldn't do it.

FOSL: That is so interesting.

BOND: Yeah. So I don't know when this happened.

FOSL: Hmm. So, no particular vignettes that come to mind?

BOND: No.

FOSL: Um, so, and no other specific instances or SCEF, of SCEF or Anne 00:37:00being excluded, that you can recall?

BOND: No. No, it, you know--

FOSL: I mean, there--

BOND: I'm sure it happened, but--

FOSL: Right.

BOND: You know.

FOSL: There are these rather famous ones, the VEP struggle--

BOND: Hmm.

FOSL: --the, well, that, I guess, is probably the most. And then I guess there was, at the training for the Mississippi Freedom Fighters.

BOND: Yeah. Yeah--

FOSL: That was--

BOND: --no, I don't remember any of that. You know, as I say, Forman, in the SNCC hierarchy of things, you know, Forman is, would be your best informant--

FOSL: You think so?

BOND: --on all of these--

FOSL: Do you have a phone number?

BOND: I may.

FOSL: I mean, you don't have to do it right now. We--

BOND: I may. Well, ask me about it. 'Cause I, I keep all the SNCC records.

FOSL: Okay.

BOND: All the names and addresses. I do, and a fellow in Washington named Reggie Robinson, we have the two lists.

FOSL: Oh, okay.

BOND: Uh, and I'm gonna try to get us to merge our lists. But, uh, I have a lot of these people.

FOSL: Okay. Um, well, I don't know if you would remember it from the 00:38:00time, but I'm sure you're familiar with it now, you know, from your work as a historian, about Anne's support of SNCC's move towards Black Power.

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: Could you say a little bit--

BOND: Yeah--

FOSL: --about that.

BOND: --again, I don't remember a lot of detail. But I remember, in fact, I quote in my lecture, uh, I think, an early statement from her, from the early sixties, when the movement is just getting under, activist movement is just getting underway, in which she says, "The negro does not want white people to make decisions for him--

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: --but wants, you know, cooperation and collaboration, and so forth and so on." Uh, and, you know, I try to point out that she's one of the few whites, northern or southern, as well, who understand this. Uh, a lot of people say it, but she understands it. Uh, but again, I don't have much memory of the black power controversy, 'cause I was, just about the time I left SNCC.

FOSL: Um-hm. Right.

BOND: Uh, but she seemed to me, you know, to understand and to 00:39:00sympathize with what, to most people, was a horrific, horrible idea.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: And to me, it just made perfect sense.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: It was ordinary and understandable. I couldn't understand why people were so upset about it. I, I think I know now. But at the time, I just couldn't understand this. Why are these people so agitated?

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: What's, what's the big problem? Uh, and she was just steadfast.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: You know? Here's what it is, this is the way I understand it, this is what it means. Um, and always so clear about it.

FOSL: Yeah, she's always had, in fact, it's interesting because if you read, you know, not only have I interviewed Anne over a period--

BOND: Hmm.

FOSL: --of really eight years now--

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: But I've read numerous other interviews with her--

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: --starting in '72--

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: --up through very recent years. And the most voluminous one being the Sue Thrasher interview--

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: --for Highlander, '81 -----------(??). And there's an amazing, there's a clarity about her, and a, a, an unchanging quality.

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: I mean it's amazing how she's, like, really still saying so many of the same--

BOND: Yes.

FOSL: --things that she was saying.

BOND: Yes. It's that consistency.

FOSL: Yeah.

BOND: Um, which isn't always, you know, good.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: But in this case, it's just--

FOSL: Right.

BOND: --great (??).

FOSL: Yeah. Yeah. Um, oh, well that leads me to my next question, is, how do you think that Anne's changed over the years?

BOND: Hmmm. Well, the first thought that came to my mind was, I think in her present political activities, that she now does things that she might not have done when she was at SCEF, that she's much more interested in being close of (??) activism. I don't mean she was hostile to it.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: But that her present activities seem much more activist--

FOSL: Right.

BOND: --than I thought of SCEF. I didn't think of SCEF as an--

FOSL: No.

BOND: --activist organization.

FOSL: Is that right?

BOND: Getting out, picketing, marching, doing, although SCEF people did it.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: But I didn't see the organization, and SCEF, I, I don't know what, why, why I think this is contradictory. But seems to me she's more aggressive in an activist--

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: --sense, a dem-, dem-, a demonstrating sense, than she would have been then. Now, that's probably not true, but that's my perception of it.

FOSL: Yeah, so could you say a little bit more about how you did see SCEF then, if it weren't, if it weren't that, what was it?

BOND: I don't know what I thought it did. Because to me, it was Anne and Carl Braden and James Dombrowski, and I, and that was it. It was a source of information, an outlet for our news, uh, an interpretation of who we were, uh, a source of money. Uh, but as for the organization--

FOSL: Right.

BOND: --I never, I don't think I had any sense of it doing anything. I knew it did things.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: But I had no idea of what it did. Part of what I got in my Sovereignty Commission files, or maybe it's, finally says SCEF minutes.

FOSL: Is that right?

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: Huh. Really makes you wonder who was there to take them.

BOND: Exactly. Yeah, and how they, or if no one took 'em, how did they get 'em?

FOSL: I guarantee you it's the same way they got that report from that field trip. I just know it was--

BOND: Um-hm. Sure.

FOSL: --right there in Jackson.

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: I'm not sure (??). Well, um, how would you summarize, or, I mean, this would be something you can tell your students, and probably do, how would you summarize her role in the movements of the sixties?

BOND: Hmm, you know, to tell the truth, I don't summarize, uh, I don't summarize--(laughs)--as much as I should.

FOSL: Hmm. (laughs)

BOND: But she did all the things I've said.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: And, you know, just an invaluable partner to SNCC first, to the larger black movement, secondarily--

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: --and a prod, and a, a source of energy to help push, push, push, 00:43:00push. Now, I can't ever remember Anne Braden saying, "Do this."

FOSL: Right.

BOND: Or, "Do that." But it also seems to me, just in the hidden recesses of my, you know, mind, that she was always pushing, always pushing, to do more, to be a little more aggressive, to be a little more militant, to not worry so much about consequences, just a prod. She was a prod. Just pushed us along.

FOSL: Hmm.

BOND: Uh, sometimes I think without us knowing we were being pushed.

FOSL: Um-hm. Sounds like it.

BOND: Pushing us along.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: And she'd say, you know, "Now couldn't you also do this," or, "Might you not do that."

FOSL: Yeah.

BOND: --or, "What, what if you did this?" And, you know, ninety-nine times out of a hundred, it would be the thing to do.

FOSL: Hmm.

BOND: And again, I don't remember her sitting in a meeting doing this.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: But just in an individual conversation or a talk with a small 00:44:00group of people or two or three people sitting around, she'd say something like that. And people would say, "Hey, that's a good idea."

FOSL: Well, I guess I'm speaking to you now as an historian--

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: --more than, you know--

BOND: Well, you know, I'm an accidental historian--(Fosl laughs)--I'm not--(Fosl clears throat)--a trained historian. But, uh--

FOSL: Well, at any rate, as an historian--

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: --how would you place Anne in the greater Freedom Movement of the second half of the twentieth century? That's a big question.

BOND: Yeah, it is a big question.

FOSL: I know it is.

BOND: Well, from, you know, the, uh, Southern Conference from, you know, the forties, forward, she's been a, a vital presence. And, you hate to say cutting edge.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: Because everybody's on the cutting edge. But she's been on the cutting edge. And the remarkable thing about it, I think, is her role 00:45:00and her visibility are so different that she has been in, you know, involved in almost every movement--

FOSL: Right.

BOND: --that's ebbed and flowed over these years. She's been right at the top. She hasn't been in the public leadership.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: But she's been there.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: And she's been an influence, a positive influence, on all of these events from then until now. And it is a remarkable career she's had.

FOSL: Yes, I think it is.

BOND: Just a remarkable career she's had. And she's passed almost unnoticed. She's been right under the radar screen. And even though she's written a book, even though she's been red-baited in all these newspapers, you know, back in that time, uh, even though she's, you know, run this highly visible organization and then now, today, another one, she's been just right under there.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: And it's peculiar. Um, partly I think it is because she is self-effacing.

FOSL: Yes, she is.

BOND: Uh, but, uh--

FOSL: You don't know how she tried to dissuade from this project.

BOND: But it's more than that.

FOSL: Yeah.

BOND: I think it's more than that. I don't know what it is. I think it is because she saw her role as not being a public person, that she shares with Ella Baker this aversion to the charismatic--

FOSL: Right.

BOND: --leadership model. And, uh, so it's not just that she's self- effacing, it's more than that. It's a political decision, an informed political decision, to stay away from the spotlight and the camera and the--(clears throat)--the newspaper, and to work in another way. And perhaps the longevity of her career is a tribute to the wisdom of this choice.

FOSL: Uh-hm.

BOND: Maybe not, 'cause you can't tell. But--

FOSL: Um, going back to a more specific question for a second--(clears throat)--as SNCC evolved and changed and gender--

BOND: Hmm.

FOSL: --became to be, became more of an issue in SNCC, and maybe even before that, um, how, I mean, obviously, you're not a woman, so you 00:47:00would have viewed it differently. But did you see Anne as--

[Pause in recording.]

BOND: You know, it's odd. As, you know, while you're turning the tape over, I had to think about that. Um, I taught my students that Daisy Bates served as an alternative model. Because her job, which is running a newspaper, and her life, and her, her private life--

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: --which was being head of the NAACP, isn't the same thing.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: And she proved that a woman could have a career and a political life, too.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: And, but I never thought that about Anne. And I don't know why.

FOSL: Huh.

BOND: Maybe it's some, you know, flaw on my part. But I never, I thought she does, and she did. But I never thought that about her.

FOSL: You saw her as more traditional.

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: How interesting.

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: That is very interesting.

BOND: Or, if not more traditional, at least not embody-, I don't know 00:48:00why. But, until you asked the question, I never thought of her in that light. I've always thought of Daisy Bates--

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: --in that light. I've thought of, uh, Ella Baker in that light. And I don't think it's because they're black and she's white. Uh, but, it could be. But I just never thought of her in that way. I think she does demonstrate that. But--

FOSL: You know, it, I mean, again, I'm just sort of putting forth this as an idea. But it could be that, in some ways, Anne has retained a, an Old South air about her--

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: --in her personal style.

BOND: Yes.

FOSL: I think.

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: And she doesn't have it now.

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: But it seems to me a lot of people, you know, the impression I get of her is, like, very soft-spoken--

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: --very ladylike.

BOND: Yes.

FOSL: Not--

BOND: Yes.

FOSL: --challenging certain, you know, preconceived ideas in those 00:49:00years. I mean, maybe that's part of it. I--

BOND: I don't know. I think when I read her book, I had this image of a kind of a Brenda Starr--

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: --kind of person--

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: --as the reporter? Uh, professional, you know--

FOSL: Yeah.

BOND: --on the job, so forth and so on. Um, but still, Brenda Starr, I don't think Brenda Starr is a role model. Although, you know, Charlayne Hunter says Brenda Starr was her role model.

FOSL: Is that right?

BOND: Yeah. But, I don't know, I just never thought of Anne in that way. Maybe it is that Old South thing. You know, she's from Anniston.

FOSL: Yeah.

BOND: Does she talk about, I don't know, I always thought of, you know, so far as I was concerned, she lived in Kentucky.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: I always thought of her as coming from Anniston.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: And what Anniston summons up, I don't, not sure. Maybe it is magnolias and--

FOSL: Right.

BOND: --you know--

FOSL: I, I just don't know.

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: But that's a very interesting point.

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: And I, uh, you know, Co-, Connie, I think, wasn't a good person to ask, in the sense that she--

BOND: Connie's older.

FOSL: She was older.

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: See, she was seen in that same--

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: --group in a way.

BOND: Yes.

FOSL: As someone who would be a role model, not seek one.

BOND: Hmm.

FOSL: Um, and I really haven't, you know, I've got all these plans to talk to Casey (??) and Jane and all these people.

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: But I really haven't talked to 'em, but interestingly, they have not ever one time discussed Anne's influence on them--

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: --in that deep in our hearts collective.

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: They've never discussed it. I was amazed.

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: I was really shocked. Because, you know, I was too young to be part of that. And I've been so informed about Anne as a role model, sort of by Sara Evans'--

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: --work, in a way. So you just think, like, they must have, and for myself, I've really sought out role models in older women. And I think about them that way.

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: So it was amazing to me that it would never come up in their conversations of the different experiences with SNCC over the years. I mean, you know, maybe it's just so focal to me because, like, Anne is my, quote, "subject," you know.

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: But I was really surprised.

BOND: Well, maybe, you know, again, while you were talking, I was thinking maybe she was a role model for me. Not of a woman--

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: --but of a person. She came out as a, and I, I mean this as a compliment, as a propagandist.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: But she held up for me an image of how you could get this movement out there.

FOSL: Hmm.

FOSL: And that was a role model for me.

FOSL: That's interesting.

BOND: You know, it was something I wanted to do.

FOSL: Definitely.

BOND: And she did it. So I thought, "Gee, if I could do that, or I could do what she does--

FOSL: Right.

BOND: --I'd be okay."

FOSL: Huh. Okay. Well, um--(sigh)--are there any other questions about anything that you think that I should know or deal with that you, about Anne that you could tell me, that I haven't asked you about?

BOND: No. And, but I think, um, I know you've, you know, got millions 00:52:00of people lined up yet to see, and places to go. You might wanna think some time, if you ever find yourself in Atlanta, looking through the Samuel Williams papers, which are, I think, at the Atlanta History Center. Uh, because he may have in his papers some reference to the Bradens or--

FOSL: Um-hm.

BOND: --something.

FOSL: Huh.

BOND: I don't know. Um, there are also, there's a brand new book just came out about Grace Towns Hamilton.

FOSL: I'm, I've heard of the book, but I haven't--

BOND: Jean Bergmark. I just read through it this weekend, not read it, this week in Atlanta. She worked for SRC. And I just, I looked for my name in the index and read those sections. (Fosl laughs) But I betcha there's something in there that touches on this. Uh, she's involved in interracial work.

FOSL: Right.

BOND: Urban League, Southern Regional Council, Urban League. And, uh, there's gotta be something in there that touches on this in some way or 00:53:00the other.

FOSL: Right (??).

BOND: And then I have here, this is a, not perfect list. This is my SNCC list.

FOSL: Okay. Yeah, I'd love to get a few addresses for, out of that.

BOND: Well, lemme thumb through this is in a quick hurry and think about people that--

FOSL: Well, lemme ask you one more thing--

BOND: Sure.

FOSL: --while you're--

BOND: Yeah.

FOSL: Because I forgot to br-, you know, I, I've never been good about this, and I forgot to bring one of these release forms along.

BOND: Um-hm.

FOSL: So, can I have your permission to quote from this tape?

BOND: Yes, you have my permission to quote or use this tape or deposit this tape and use it in any way you want.

FOSL: And it will, by the way, be deposited--

BOND: Oh, good.

FOSL: --eventually in--

[End of interview.]