Interview with Jimmy Robertson, April 2, 2007

SMITH: All right this is Kim Lady Smith. It is April 2, 2007 and I am at Infinity Farms interviewing um, Jimmy Robertson for the University of Kentucky Oral History Project on the horse industry in the state. And uh, I am going to be looking down here adjusting sound here periodically; so, uh let's start off by you telling me your full name and when and where you were born.

ROBERTSON: I'm Jimmy Robertson, that's what I go by; I'm Jim Blount Robertson, II. My father was, everybody called Jim B, and uh, he was uh, born and raised in Kentucky and then he went out in his early twenties probably to work out in California for six years and I was 00:01:00born out in California. I was born in Palo Alto, California while he worked out there for a grand lady named Mrs. Roth, Lurline Roth, and she was a, a, a grand exhibitor of Saddlebreds and Hackney Ponies out in California and he worked there for her for six years and then he moved back to, when I was three years old, he moved our family back to Mount Sterling, Kentucky where he operated a stable for several years and then he moved from there to the Rock Creek Riding Club in Louisville. Which I know you've heard about.

SMITH: Yeah, I've heard a lot about that. I'll ask you a little bit more about that as we go on.

ROBERTSON: And then he ended up in Lexington, Kentucky owning his own farm out Tates Creek Road and that's the farm now that George Knight has his stable and George is one of our major trainers that's moved 00:02:00into Kentucky from Ohio.

SMITH: Okay, Knight. I'll have to remember that.

ROBERTSON: You, you'll know him. Uh, he's quite, quite, quite a horseman.

SMITH: Okay. Now your dad, so, now where did he, did he grow up?

ROBERTSON: He grew up in Bath County, which there is a little town called Bethel, Kentucky

SMITH: Okay.

ROBERTSON: which is just seven or eight miles maybe from Mount Sterling, Kentucky, which is due east of Lexington, and he grew up there and he was riding, his father was a farmer, and they'd taken horses and show them around all the time when dad was growing up. He showed equitation 00:03:00as a child. He won the biggest equitation class at the time they had at Kentucky State Fair like four years in a row before he was ever even thirteen years old, and he was a--

SMITH: So about what time period would that be?

ROBERTSON: Oh, he started doing that, he was born in '26, so this was '36 to '38 or somewhere in there when he was winning his equitation classes and he showed around that way. They'd, back then they'd, they'd take, un-braid the ribbons off the horses and iron them so they'd braid them up for the next horse show. (Smith laughs). And stuff like that.

SMITH: They didn't get to keep them, huh?"

ROBERTSON: No, I'm talking about the little ribbons that they put in the manes when they show

SMITH: Oh, okay, okay.

ROBERTSON: them. They'd un-braid them, save them, un-braid them, and iron them, and go again with them. His, his, uh, my great grandfather and his grandfather is who kind of taught him how to trade and he dealt in horses not just Saddle Horses, all kinds of horses, and that's where 00:04:00my father learned to be the trader that he was.

SMITH: Okay, and what were their names, the grandparents' names?

ROBERTSON: Well, his name, I think it was, his last name was Blount, my brother might have to tell you, Walt and I never knew him. Be sure to ask him. I think it was James Blunt, but I'm not sure.

SMITH: Okay, and that was your grandfather?

ROBERTSON: My grandfather. My great grandfather, my dad's grandfather on, on his mother's side. B-L-O-U-N-T. Blount.

SMITH: Okay. And so he had a farm, and

ROBERTSON: He had a house and a little barn in, in uh, Sharpsburg, Kentucky.

SMITH: Okay, okay. So that was in the 1900s and he was showing horses then? A few horses?

ROBERTSON: Well, I don't know if my grandfather showed, great grandfather showed much or not, but my dad was showing probably from early, early 30s right along and then went into the army and came out 00:05:00and went to training. He's been, he worked for Minton Hickory Farm down in Barbourville, which was, you've probably heard a few stories about their place. They were uh, their business was hickory sticks. So while their business thrived when golf was coming up being used by hickory, but when they got these--

SMITH: Oh.

ROBERTSON: graphite shafts that was not as much need for the hickory stick

SMITH: That's right.

ROBERTSON: other than a few walking canes and that was kind of the end of that company. But when they go into it with these metal and graphite and shafts for golf clubs that's when, that's what ended up finishing up that interest in the hickory sticks. But it was Minton Hickory Farm. Uh, my dad worked for uh, Miss, Miss Nola Minton, was 00:06:00her name, it was called Minton Hickory Farm.

SMITH: Okay, now was he working with horses, or was he doing--

ROBERTSON: Saddle Horses.

SMITH: other things? Just Saddle Horses, okay. Now his dad, was his father, now let's see

ROBERTSON: That was Harold Robertson. He was just, he farmed. He had a big farm and he was, he farmed.

SMITH: Okay, what did he have? Cattle?

ROBERTSON: Cattle. He had some horses, but I mean, you know they were just, that was their hobby.

SMITH: Okay, so how, it was your, basically your great grandfather that got your father really interested in horses?

ROBERTSON: Uh huh, into training and trading--

SMITH: Okay.

ROBERTSON: And that sort of thing was from my great grandfather. He kind of taught my dad how to trade.

SMITH: Okay, so your dad, uh, uh, worked with horses a little bit into the 30s through his own--

ROBERTSON: He was born in 26 and he was riding as a very, very, very young man.

SMITH: Okay, so he still would have been at home most of that?

ROBERTSON: Uh huh, right to the mid 40s,

SMITH: Till the war?

ROBERTSON: Till the war. He went uh, he went overseas for a short 00:07:00period of time.

SMITH: Was he drafted or did he enlist?

ROBERTSON: I don't remember whether he drafted or got, I don't know, not sure.

SMITH: Do you remember much about his war experiences?

ROBERTSON: No, he, he was in the Calvary.

SMITH: Oh really?

ROBERTSON: He sure was. He was in Fort Riley, Kansas, in the Calvary and there were several, I think there were some other horse trainers that were there the same time.

SMITH: Well, that's interesting.

ROBERTSON: I know one was K.K. Gutridge, Eddie Gutridge, who is a trainer that ended up being right here in Louisville, but he was, he'd been around, but there was, I think there was several of them that, they'd have uh, they would have the duties of you know taking supplies over the mountains and stuff like that. It wasn't like the General Custer or anything.

SMITH: (laughs) Yeah.

ROBERTSON: There were, there were duties for animals, animals of burden 00:08:00back even in the WWII.

SMITH: Yeah, I had heard that, but not to any great detail.

ROBERTSON: If you do an interview with my brother you'll have to get him to show you two pictures he has, one of a, of a guy, there were two matching pictures, one of them is a guy lunging a, a probably an officer's horse and another one is, he's working an officer's horse to a drag and the sign on the barn is Fort Riley, Kansas, and it is neat--

SMITH: Oh, really?

ROBERTSON: Neat pictures.

SMITH: Oh, I'll look at that.

ROBERTSON: You'll have to ask him about them. If you do it at his house, that's where

SMITH: Okay.

ROBERTSON: he'll have those pictures there.

SMITH: Well, actually, one of the things we're doing with the project too is uh, we're putting together a DVD uh, Misdee is, to promote the project, and she's looking for some old interesting pictures, so I'll 00:09:00be sure to check on that.

ROBERTSON: She might want to check with Walt. She knows him--

SMITH: Yeah.

ROBERTSON: well.

SMITH: Okay, so I can kind of get the chronology straight in my head. So your dad went off to the war, now was he married prior to the war?

ROBERTSON: No, he came back and at some period in time, in the 40s started, worked, I don't know how many years, but a few years down in Barbourville, Kentucky for Minton Hickory Farm and that's, my mother's from Barbourville.

SMITH: Okay.

ROBERTSON: And they met, and they got married and then he, uh, Walt, my brother, was born here in Kentucky and then shortly after he was born is when we trecked across country to uh, uh, California, near San Francisco.

SMITH: And so you were born there?

ROBERTSON: I was, Walt was born here, and three years later I was born over there.

SMITH: Do you have any other siblings?

ROBERTSON: Just the two of us.

SMITH: Okay, I suspect you don't remember a whole lot about your life in California, do you?

ROBERTSON: Very little. I mean I remember the talks, but very little about it. Walt, dad worked for this lady, uh, Mrs. Roth. She was, they had a lot of involvement with developing of Hawaii.

SMITH: Oh.

ROBERTSON: And there was a ship named after Ms. Roth, Lurline Roth. They owned the docks at Pearl Harbor that got blown up.

SMITH: Oh.

ROBERTSON: Their family did. The Roth family did and they. But that was uh, they were involved with the development of Hawaii and she had Saddle Horses, uh, right along. She had horses. She had Sweetheart on Parade. You might have seen some pictures of; I'll show you on, on your way out.

SMITH: Okay.

ROBERTSON: There's a picture of her as a gray mare showing in the 30s and, but the best horse my dad showed for Ms. Roth was uh, the son of Sweetheart on Parade. That was a horse called Song of Norway who was a

SMITH: I think I heard that name.

ROBERTSON: real good horse but he didn't never show back here but uh, to hard to travel back here back then.

SMITH: How did he get hooked up with Ms. Roth?

ROBERTSON: I don't know. I don't know. There's a, I'm, I'm not real sure how that came about.

SMITH: He was a trainer, working as a trainer?

ROBERTSON: He was training. As far as I know he was working for Miss Nola Minton in Barbourville and then this job came to be and he ended up going out to California and then he was there six years and then he came back and started his stable in Mount Sterling, Kentucky for several years before he moved on to Rock Creek and then to Lexington.

SMITH: Okay, did he like California? Did he like his work out there?

ROBERTSON: I guess he liked it okay, you know it was a long way from 00:12:00home. You know that's a, there wasn't much flying back then and you know it was hard. That was a big undertaking even to go across country even flying. But, I can remember my mother, you know you drive right across the desert. I can remember her having a dress that had little cutouts across the collarbone and hitting that hot sun across there, she had tan marks for years, right where that print cutout of that dress was.

SMITH: Ew.

ROBERTSON: I can remember that like I, that, I mean that was when I was just little bitty but I can remember that like it was yesterday.

SMITH: Ew. She must have got really burned then.

ROBERTSON: Yeah, I mean there wasn't any way to get away from it back then. Probably didn't have any air conditioning.

SMITH: And what was your mother's name?

ROBERTSON: Margaret Ann Smith.

SMITH: (laughs) Well, there's a lot of them.

ROBERTSON: Yeah, you're related to her.

SMITH: I could be, could be. Um, so you think that part of the reason they came back. They were just homesick?

ROBERTSON: I think so. I mean, I think so, they uh, this is home to them and I know they wanted to get back here eventually.

SMITH: Did your father have any brothers or sisters?

ROBERTSON: He had two brothers. Both of them worked on the farm. Neither one of them fooled with horses much.

SMITH: Okay.

ROBERTSON: They became, kept farming, after uh, that was their, both of thems choice of work.

SMITH: Okay, so you came back from California so we're looking at probably the early 50s?

ROBERTSON: Probably '54, '55, somewhere in there. I was three and I was born in '51, so probably '54 or 5.

SMITH: You say he started a stable; did he just purchase a stable and?

ROBERTSON: He did. Well, he rented it, he never owned it. There was a barn there in Mount Sterling that, it was a straight barn, which you saw so many of these barns had these arenas now. Back then they didn't have those. And they had a straight barn. They started out; he shared a barn with a guy who had Walking Horses. He'd have half the barn and the Walking Horse guy would have the other half. And then, uh, eventually the Walking Horse guy moved on and then he, about the same time, he needed more, so he uh, took the whole barn then, then he went, went up to Rock Creek.

SMITH: So was he boarding and training? Was that--

ROBERTSON: Boarding and training.

SMITH: Was that?

ROBERTSON: Yes.

SMITH: Okay. Had he gotten into owning and breeding any horses at this time?

ROBERTSON: He, no, I don't think any of that started till probably after he left Rock Creek which would be say '67 somewhere '66 or 7. He probably left Rock Creek to where he had, he rented a barn in Lexington 00:15:00for a while and then bought his own barn and those two barns had more land where he could do more of the breeding. Rock Creek was just, it's four acres. It's just uh, just room enough for stalls and a few places to work outside, and that's it.

SMITH: Okay, so did he move the whole family to Rock Creek?

ROBERTSON: Uh huh. We sure did. He uh, we, I'm trying to think. I think we had to finish out our school year and he moved on maybe in the spring and then after we got out of school we moved on over. I didn't start, I started, I went two grades in Mount Sterling and then started third grade maybe in Louisville.

SMITH: Do you remember some of your early experiences on the farm? Did you work even as a young child with the horses?

ROBERTSON: Well, just all the time, I mean when I was old enough to. 00:16:00I was just uh, any of the summer jobs or anything I did was that. Even when I went, I went to UK, but uh, anytime classes weren't going on, I was back working at the farm. Back then his farm was uh, out that Tate's Creek Road and just before that another, another one out Richmond Road. And we uh, it was, I called myself wanting to go to vet school, but I didn't really spend enough time on the grades. I wasn't a bad student, but there were some diversions. I always ended up at the farms and doing stuff like that, so, I don't know if I really wanted to be a vet or not deep down.

SMITH: That's a lot of work and it does take you away from being with the animals in some ways. Uh, now why did your dad go to Rock Creek?

ROBERTSON: I think it was probably more of an opportunity. More stalls, 00:17:00and more of an opportunity and it was kind of a step up from his small stable. He did well there in Mount Sterling, but it was a step up. A lot of people used Rock Creek as a stepping stone to.

SMITH: So was he the only trainer there? Is that how that worked?

ROBERTSON: He was the manager and trainer and then whoever else was there worked for him.

SMITH: Okay. Didn't Rock Creek used to also, maybe still does, have a show?

ROBERTSON: They have a show in June every year.

SMITH: Now, I may have this completely wrong, but my understanding was it used to be a really important show, or bigger show than it is now.

ROBERTSON: Well it did. And it's still important but so, what hurts it now is just the changing of the times. There's a lot of shows like Asheville, North Carolina, Lexington, Virginia, um, Raleigh, 00:18:00North Carolina, uh, uh, down in uh Clemson, South Carolina. All these have these wonderful facilities now uh, similar to the Horse Park's facilities and they're indoor. And an outdoor show like Rock Creek has, cause you can't count on the weather, it just doesn't, it hasn't stayed as strong, but it's still a real good show. It's, it's a good show. It's a, they sell out all the stalls they can put in there and they have a good show but it's the fact that it's not, some of these other shows a couple weeks before Rock Creek's, a show in Asheville, North Carolina, that's all indoors, and then a week before that's a show in Lexington, Virginia and then the next week after that at 00:19:00Illinois State Fair, the week after Rock Creek, is a big show with an indoor facility at the Illinois State Fairground. It's those kind of shows have gotten stronger while the, the shows that have to depend on the weather faltered a little bit.

SMITH: Okay, that makes sense. Now, did your dad travel to all, a lot of these shows when he was training and showing?

ROBERTSON: Yeah, he'd go. He used to, he'd go to Florida even when I was with him we'd go and he may go to four straight horse shows right down there in Florida, one show to the next. And then before that there was one year he went and spent eight weeks in Florida. It started out way down like in Miami and worked their way up and maybe the last show was either Tampa or Gainesville and just, then they came on home.

SMITH: And so, he was basically, was employed by Rock Creek?

ROBERTSON: He, it was a, he was kind of employed, but it was kind of a lease deal too.

SMITH: Okay

ROBERTSON: It was more, he was his own boss. I mean he had a board to answer to, but he was his own boss and uh at Rock Creek and it's kind of the same thing that Rob and Sarah did, same thing I did. It was a, we weren't salaried by Rock Creek.

SMITH: Still earning a living as a trainer basically.

ROBERTSON: Uh huh.

SMITH: Was that hard to do?

ROBERTSON: You know I don't know about that but I can remember some time and my father was pretty well-established, but I can remember some time before our last move I heard my mother say "I've had nineteen different homes." And you're talking about somebody that was pretty well-established in the business.

SMITH: Right.

ROBERTSON: I mean you kind of go where your business takes you. But they owned, or lived in nineteen different residences while, more 00:21:00than that. I mean she said that at one time, but I don't know if, I don't think that was the last time, the last move she made, but uh and you know that would be hard I mean for forty years to be in nineteen different spots. (laughs)

SMITH: Absolutely. Now did your mom like the horses?

ROBERTSON: She, yeah, but she was, there was no horseman about her. She wasn't, she handled her, his bills and things like that but she didn't, she didn't have any interest in showing or anything, you know. A lot of their friends were horse people, but she wasn't involved in the showing at all really.

SMITH: So when did you get involved in showing horses?

ROBERTSON: Well, just growing up and then when I (clears throat) I showed, there'd always be a pony here and there that I'd end up showing while I was a juvenile rider which is seventeen and under and then uh went to school three years and didn't go, elected not to go my fourth 00:22:00year to UK and I started going to working full time then but I was part-time all the rest of the time.

SMITH: Were you working for your dad, or--

ROBERTSON: Most of the time, about all the time for him.

SMITH: Okay, now did your brother get involved in showing horses?

ROBERTSON: He did a little but he ended up getting involved with auctioneering instead.

SMITH: Okay, slightly different path, huh?

ROBERTSON: Yeah, uh huh.

SMITH: So did you uh, always know that training was something you'd like to do?

ROBERTSON: It was always something, you know like I said, I think deep down it was. I always had thoughts of becoming a veterinarian but when it and I applied for two, two different years, and didn't get in to vet school, and so there I was training. Hm.

SMITH: So what years were you in college?

ROBERTSON: Oh, '69 to '72.

SMITH: Okay. I don't think I got your birth date. What's your birth 00:23:00date?

ROBERTSON: '51, October '51.

SMITH: Okay, you're close to my age.

ROBERTSON: There you go. I'm older than you.

SMITH: Not by much. (both laugh) Uh, one of the, one of the things I've read a lot about and heard a little bit about from David and Joan were the county fairs, uh, in Kentucky. They seem like they were pretty interesting places to show. Do you remember, do you have any kind of memories of that?

ROBERTSON: They were, they were uh, they were, back then, county fairs meant so much more than they do now and they just, we're not as rural as we used to be or something and it's uh, it's not like it was and it's, and you know, it'll get worse, you know they're talking about ending up possibly year-round school. What's that gonna do to the 00:24:00county fairs or the boat docks or the marinas or the park systems or anything else? And it's a, it's a shame and uh, but back then it was, the county fairs were such an important part of, of our, our summertime's. I mean, like my dad, when he did move back he had a horse, he had a gaited horse, five gaited horse, named History Maker and he took him and showed him around, and this was the early to mid- 50s, mid 50s I guess, and going to all the county fairs, showing in all the championships at these county fairs and stuff and one year he made $5000 showing that horse around which uh, is impossible now, I mean because, but the, the classes were more important and it was a big deal -- the, the gaited stakes at, at all the county fairs, well there's 00:25:00Lawrenceburg--. I mean the money, there was more money, but I mean that'd be like getting, taking a horse around now and getting around 50,000, $60,000, or $70,000 worth. But that's just kind of the sign of the times as far as importance. It's not just the horse shows. I mean the county fairs aren't as monumental as they used to be. It's just an unfortunate change.

SMITH: Well um, I've heard they can be kind of rough at times in some of these counties, but uh, I was reading in Helen Crabtree's book that people had a good time but didn't necessarily always follow what would be the rules today. Is that?

ROBERTSON: Well, there was probably enough of that. I don't know any instances so much. But it was uh, it would be hard to uh, to 00:26:00duplicate that now because of you know I mean you hear about people uh, putting different bridles on them in the county fair because it's not recognized and as part of getting their horse trained and put in order to where they could show him better the next time

SMITH: Oh okay.

ROBERTSON: And stuff like that, and it probably was some of that, but I don't know of any particular instances like Ms. Crabtree might have remembered.

SMITH: When, so the county fairs' importance to the Saddle Horses was, was not so much that it didn't take them to the next level necessarily. I mean, how, how did that?

ROBERTSON: Well, it's uh, it did and it didn't. There were, there were uh, there were awfully good horses that showed at Mercer County or uh, Shelby County Fair, or the Shelbyville Horse Show, or, and far as those 00:27:00major shows, a lot of the, our good horses around here will go there now and uh there's not a, (clears throat) there aren't as many of the shows to take the smaller and less-expensive horses, which it's hurt our industry a little

SMITH: Okay.

ROBERTSON: to sell our medium to inexpensive horses because we don't have as many places to, you know we'd go to Shelby County fair and we're gonna have, run into premier, Redd Crabtree, all those people you've mentioned. Their gonna be showing over here at the Shelby County Fair and you can't slip away and go somewhere like you used to be able to, used to be a major show every weekend in the summer plus some other one day shows and stuff for smaller county fairs. There's still a few, but not like it was thirty, forty years ago.

SMITH: Uh, the county fairs were important to help sell the horses as 00:28:00well as?

ROBERTSON: Well, it helps sell them and gives people something to do. I mean you know it's a, and it's uh, course uh, it's, you know after they buy them what are you gonna do with them? Well, we take them and show them. There's a lot of things that, we have a lot of more competition now for our entertainment dollar than we used to.

SMITH: Yeah.

ROBERTSON: I mean, uh, do you have kids?

SMITH: I have one.

ROBERTSON: How old?

SMITH: Eighteen. Yeah, I know. (laughs)

ROBERTSON: Been to Europe yet?

SMITH: No, although that's often discussed.

ROBERTSON: Well, it'll happen and it's just back when you and I were children if anybody every dreamed of going to Europe it'd be a little old week long trip and we'd be right back home and spend the rest of the summer here at home

SMITH: That's right.

ROBERTSON: Or something. But now practically everybody will, they'll either, they may go to Europe, they may study, or Bob Ruxer, a good 00:29:00friend of mine's daughter's studying in London right now, and uh, for a whole semester, you know, and it's just, but that's not it, and mean there's just so many other entertainment dollars that weren't there for basically rural America last you know thirty-five, forty, fifty years ago.

SMITH: Uh, you've been, now your father was training and you've been training. Do you see, has it declined over the years? The number of clients, or has it changed in terms of the type of clients?

ROBERTSON: You know it's uh, it's not that different as far as who we have. There's not, I find now which thirty, forty years ago was not the case. Because of all these other entertainment dollars, there's no quote "idle rich" anymore. When dad would go for a month to a horse 00:30:00show there would be several customers that would stay down there for the whole month and, uh, with their horses, when we'd go to Florida for a month, but the, there's not any idle rich anymore. The idle, the wealthy aren't idle anymore. I mean they're doing, they're doing things

SMITH: Oh yeah.

ROBERTSON: that we weren't doing forty years ago and uh, that's the biggest difference so therefore, not to mention the costs of the, the travel, you know, the gas and everything's much more than it used to be but people aren't gonna go and stay for one, two, three, four weeks at a horse show or one show to another like they used to and that made, that's made like Florida, the Florida circuits is now two shows instead 00:31:00of four to eight shows.

SMITH: The big shows in Kentucky, are, I think I know the answer, but I'm gonna let you answer it. What are the big shows?

ROBERTSON: Well, the biggest one of course is the World's Championship and then the next biggest one is uh, the Lexington Junior League Show in Lexington right on the racetrack and then you have the Rock Creek Show which is maybe not as big as it was, maybe it is, but it's, it's big enough. It's a five or six day show and then uh, uh Harrodsburg in Mercer County. They still have a nice big show. Uh, Lawrenceburg has a nice show, Anderson County where you interviewed David Mountjoy. (coughs) Shelbyville has two big shows. They have about four shows 00:32:00over there at that fairgrounds. It's just like you go out the back way it's like six miles from here. But it's uh, it's right at the fairgrounds there and they have a county fair in June and then the first of August they have a big Shelbyville Horse Show which is, you see a lot of these, are the uh, ad posters that they have from the Shelby County,

SMITH: Those are nice.

ROBERTSON: Shelbyville Horse Show. (coughs) They try to duplicate the grand old shows and you can see that in their artwork

SMITH: Yeah. I like that.

ROBERTSON: and then they have a couple of smaller shows too. We go to that show, we take horses to the fairgrounds at least four times a year in Shelbyville. And then there are some others. There's a couple of shows in Northern Kentucky and uh, there's a show, Paris, has a nice one day show that they've had for years and uh, it's uh and the Horse 00:33:00Park has a show in the spring and a show in the fall and both those are pretty nice shows.

SMITH: Now do you go to most of these?

ROBERTSON: I go to all of them probably.

SMITH: Okay. Now, you show the horses yourself? Or do you?

ROBERTSON: We are more for the amateurs.

SMITH: Okay.

ROBERTSON: We get a stable and my wife and I prepare them for amateurs more than we do ourselves.

SMITH: Okay. Well let's go back to when you got out of college and decided not to go back for the fourth year, what did you do right after that?

ROBERTSON: Went right to work for my father.

SMITH: Now was he at Rock Creek still?

ROBERTSON: No, he had been gone for several years and he was at, uh, out Tates Creek Road now where George Knight's barn is now and he was running a stable there. I just went there and worked with him.

SMITH: Now did he own that property?

ROBERTSON: He owned that farm. He rented a farm out Old Richmond Road for several years and then bought his own place and this was an old 00:34:00dairy barn and they knocked out the concrete stanchions that they tied dairy cows to while they milked them and they knocked all of those out and put horse stalls and had, had an arena and that's where George Knight trains now.

SMITH: Okay. Did your dad, you and your dad, you were working with him, how many other people did he have helping him?

ROBERTSON: Well he'd have maybe another guy training so there'd be three of us working horses and then uh, several grooms, four or five grooms maybe.

SMITH: Okay.

ROBERTSON: He worked, he had one barn that had thirty stalls in it and another barn that had about that many in it and most of the time they were both full. Maybe he didn't.

SMITH: Now these were client's horses?

ROBERTSON: Clients and horses to buy and sell and trade.

SMITH: Okay, uh, but was he doing any breeding at that point?

ROBERTSON: Few. A little bit by then. Yeah, he was train, breeding a 00:35:00little bit, a few horses, not a ton, but a few.

SMITH: What are some of the horses that your dad trained and showed that you remember most?

ROBERTSON: Well, the two best horses that he had probably, uh, that he's most known for, One of them was a harness horse called Tashi Ling and she was uh, by a horse called Wing Commander famous, famous horse and out of a world champion three gaited horse and she was a great harness mare and dad won the stake at Louisville four years with her and then he had a walk trot mare called Forest Song who Garland Bradshaw won the three gaited stake at Louisville with as a three-year old, first time that had happened. And one of dad's clients bought her, (coughs) uh, while we were still at Rock Creek. No, it was, its after we moved 00:36:00to Lexington, and the girl was from Rock Creek, a girl named Julianne Smyths(??) and she showed her for several years and then her back got to hurting her to where she couldn't ride her anymore and that's when dad showed her that last year and won the walk trot stake at Louisville, a three gaited stake at Louisville. Probably '72, somewhere in there.

SMITH: Do you know if your dad had a favorite horse?

ROBERTSON: It would have been one of those two maybe, probably, Tashi Ling, but either one of those two and they were two of the very, very best and he showed also, he showed a, a gated mare, he never won the five gated stake at Louisville, but he was second one year with a mare that belonged to the Old Plainview Farm which is a, was a well-known farm and all the land around Hurstbourne Lane now was part of Plainview 00:37:00Farm back then. You know where, you're familiar with Hurstbourne Lane?

SMITH: Yes.

ROBERTSON: Yeah. There's a, in fact there's an apartment complex there called Plainview.

SMITH: Oh really? And yet no one knows the history behind it.

ROBERTSON: Yeah, very few.

SMITH: Hm. Uh your dad, did you learn most of what you know about training from your father?

ROBERTSON: Yeah, I really didn't work for hardly anybody else. I mean I say a lot but you know I was kind of -- it was kind of a heyday when I was growing up if Tom Moore and Earl Teater finishing up and uh it was a -- and Lee Roby,

SMITH: Okay.

ROBERTSON: kind of the end of his career and then guys like Tom Moore coming on and, uh, uh, people in -- Don Harris, Tom Moore, and my dad, 00:38:00and there was a whole lot to see for a young guy like me. There sure was.

SMITH: Were you around these other trainers much or?

ROBERTSON: Quite a bit. Quite a bit. I mean they were all, uh, you know they were all friends of my dad's and they were, it was a competitive business, but it was, there was quite a bit of camaraderie also.

SMITH: Did your dad have any particular philosophy about training horses? Did he do something different than other people?

ROBERTSON: No. He us, there were very few people, he was that a way, uh, he trained any of them that came along and he would, he had, he had equitation, he had five gaited, three gaited, fine harness, uh, he had 00:39:00Hackney Ponies, he had uh, worked some road horses. Nobody other than him and possibly Lloyd Teater, who was Earl Teater's brother, would work so many different kinds of horses. I mean it's just like, like Mr. Ed said "A horse is a horse." But uh, he, I would compare him more to Lloyd Teater than anybody or Lloyd Teater to my dad because they worked everything. I mean Earl Teater, his deal was uh, five and three gaited. Tom Moore was three gaited with fine harness and five, and he had some, he had some nice other kinds but nobody had a little bit of 00:40:00everything like my dad did unless it was Lloyd Teater.

SMITH: Did you dad have any particular type that he liked the best or do you think he just--?

ROBERTSON: No, he, hem I think he, I think he really liked a good harness horse. He had several awful nice ones and I think he really liked a good harness horse but uh, he loved to rack and, rack and ride a gaited, five gaited horse too. I mean he just uh. I think it was any, anything that they had. He was tickled to work.

SMITH: It was a good horse.

ROBERTSON: Uh huh. Uh huh.

SMITH: I've read in this book and others and there are some colorful, interesting stories about your dad and it sounds like he was quite the, a character in his own way.

ROBERTSON: He was. Him and Arthur Simmons were horse traders more than anybody and then he was a partner with George Gwinn who you've probably 00:41:00heard of.

SMITH: Yeah, I've heard of him.

ROBERTSON: And it was like Gwinn Island down there at Harrington Lake. That was part of Gwinn Islands farm at one, I mean George Gwinn's farm at one time, but he would, they were sure enough horse traders. There's no telling how many horses a year my father might sell. I mean, no telling. I mean he ended up the last ten or fifteen years he was in business he'd have at least one sale a year of his own. Have an auction right at his farm. Park the cars out in the field and build a little sale ring in his uh, arena and take a stall front out and put an action block in uh, go to auctioning, not to mention selling horse privately. There's just no telling how many he.

SMITH: Now were these his own horses? Or these

ROBERTSON: That or he'd take consignments or whatever. He would like to do best if somebody wanted to, to disperse a bunch of horses and then 00:42:00he may add a few to it and if somebody was getting out of the business who might have maybe fifty horses, he may find another twenty-five or fifty to go with them.

SMITH: What do people do with the horses that they really couldn't sell?

ROBERTSON: They'd sell them. Somebo--,there is something for somebody. There is always something for somebody.

SMITH: David Mountjoy said they sold a lot to the Amish.

ROBERTSON: Well they do and they, horses still go to the Amish.

SMITH: Okay.

ROBERTSON: That happens right now and they'll uh, buy horses, they'll go right up, that's a, I won't say a major market, but that is a market for some of the less-expensive horses right now.

SMITH: Uh, did your dad show horses all his life?

ROBERTSON: Yeah, since he was like five.

SMITH: Okay, so did when did your dad pass away?

ROBERTSON: He died probably in '92 so, uh, fifteen years ago.

SMITH: Now how long did you work for your dad when you first got started?

ROBERTSON: I worked for him from, I left in '89 and took over Rock Creek myself so I--

SMITH: Okay.

ROBERTSON: worked for him, not full-time, 16-17 years.

SMITH: Okay. Other people that may have worked with your dad that you can remember, even grooms, other trainers, horseshoers.

ROBERTSON: Oh uh, far as, Jack Nevitt worked for him in Jackson UPHA Hall of Fame right now, Larry Hodge, Joan's husband and trainer. She, he worked for dad two or three different times. Uh, those are the, he's a horseman, former Horseman of the Year so, and will be in the 00:44:00Hall of Fame eventually. So those are the two of the most notables, but there's been several. Ed Millet got a heck of nice stable. He worked for dad several years. He's got a heck of nice stable over in uh, uh, Versailles right now. I'm trying to think of who else might have been. But as far at the most-notables, it would be Jack Nevitt and Larry Hodge.

SMITH: How would you describe your father's influence or importance to the Saddlebred industry?

ROBERTSON: Oh I think it was, I think it was pretty monumental. It was, uh, there's, really big and important in Kentucky. You know, 00:45:00you talk about all these people that you've been talking to whether it was Larry Hodge or uh, Tom Moore, all these people that ended up being Kentuckians, uh, just a handful are native Kentuckians. I mean here uh, from here in Kentucky, and I think that's important, I mean you got some of the greatest trainers that ever were, but most of them moved to Kentucky. Dad was from Kentucky and I think that's as far as his heritage goes that's pretty important and you know there's not hardly anybody else Hoppy Bennett maybe, he's from Kentucky, uh, Mike Spencer, the, uh,

SMITH: African American trainer.

ROBERTSON: Uh huh, he's from right here, but all the rest of them 00:46:00practically are transplants whether it's the Crabtree's or,

SMITH: That's right.

ROBERTSON: uh, they all came from somewhere except just three or four really.

SMITH: Why did they come to Kentucky?

ROBERTSON: Well, it's just where it's at. It's where it's just kind of in the show horse capital of the world. I mean it's uh you know the state fair got to be the most important state fair here quicker and it's just, uh, it's just uh, I don't know exactly why, it just is. And it's not a problem but it's uh you have a lot of people that still want to end up in Kentucky and there's plenty of places. In fact Kentucky's one of the smaller markets as far as population goes. It uh, I mean if there were, our business would be better if there were more people that 00:47:00wanted to be in Atlanta and in Chicago and uh, St. Louis and all these other big areas but its, everybody wants to be here.

SMITH: It's a nice state.

ROBERTSON: Uh huh.

SMITH: Nice place, at least that's what I hear from others. It's a beautiful state to raise the horses.

ROBERTSON: Uh huh, it sure it. It is. It suits. It's a good, they talk about; I don't know if it has anything, they talk about the limestone ground and all that you hear. I'm sure you hear that from all the Thoroughbreds and stuff.

SMITH: Yeah, that's what I've read a lot about.

ROBERTSON: And uh, but uh, I don't know if it's, what exactly what made it happen here, but it's here.

SMITH: Yeah. Okay, so you went to, your father still had the farm in Lexington when you to Rock Creek?

ROBERTSON: Uh huh. He ran a farm for another two or three more years and that's when he got sick and got cancer three or four years after I 00:48:00moved away.

SMITH: Is your mother still alive?

ROBERTSON: No, she's gone too.

SMITH: So how long were you at Rock Creek?

ROBERTSON: I was there oh, probably three or four years.

SMITH: Not very long.

ROBERTSON: No, uh huh.

SMITH: Did you like it?

ROBERTSON: Yeah, I enjoyed it. It was uh, uh, I enjoyed it and then I ended up with uh, moving to, I made, a very short move, but then I ended up renting a farm, you can see it from the road at the ------- ---(??) at the Blankenbaker Road exit. I rented that barn for two or three years.

SMITH: Okay.

ROBERTSON: And then Kris Price bought a farm right on the county line and I leased that for several years before I came here. Kris Price is a girl that uh, she's a horsewoman, but she's from Wisconsin and moved 00:49:00down here.

SMITH: Yeah.

ROBERTSON: Everybody wants to be here. (laughs).

SMITH: Well, that's one of things I want to try to document in this project. I told Misdee I wanted to interview her even though she hadn't been here long. People come to Kentucky and stay.

ROBERTSON: Uh,

SMITH: And they come for the horses.

ROBERTSON: Nobody's been here forever. Just I mean, I mean I call myself a native Kentuckian, but I was born in California. But nobody's been here forever. I mean you take away. I don't know of anybody of our major horse trainers other than Hoppy Bennett, who I'm sure you've heard of

SMITH: Yes.

ROBERTSON: and uh Mike Spencer and basically myself, everybody else came from somewhere else just about, Rob and Sarah Byers. Sarah's from Kentucky, Rob's from up in Virginia, Sarah's from Kentucky. She's a native Kentuckian but there's so many of them, just about all of them 00:50:00aren't.

SMITH: Yeah, that's what it sounds like. Okay, so you leased a couple farms and been training all this time?

ROBERTSON: Oh, yeah, since, I've been out on my own since '89 and uh, the first person I hired was Helen, who ended up becoming my wife, but she worked for me for several years before we got together and then,

SMITH: Did you meet at Rock Creek? ----------(??)

ROBERTSON: I knew her, but that's where she started working for me at -- Rock Creek, and uh, then we started operating the place together and she's from everywhere. She was born in Alabama and just like my parents, she probably, her parents probably had twenty-five different residences.

SMITH: Oh. Now I read she grew up with horses too.

ROBERTSON: Uh huh. She grew up, her parents trained horses, and I grew up and my parents trained horses. So, we don't have any children, so we're not. I've got a couple of daughters but they're not gonna be horse trainers.

SMITH: So you were married previously?

ROBERTSON: Uh huh.

SMITH: Do you children enjoy horses?

ROBERTSON: One does, ones allergic to them.

SMITH: Oh no.

ROBERTSON: One has a road horse which is Standardbred

SMITH: Okay.

ROBERTSON: that's a show horse. She shows it. The other one is allergic to them and doesn't -- she was a very good rider and wasn't allergic to them when she was little bitty and then she grew to be allergic to them.

SMITH: That happens.

ROBERTSON: She can walk in this barn and get the car and drive home and have a rash.

SMITH: Do they both live in the area?

ROBERTSON: Well, yeah, I mean Jennifer lives here in Shelbyville and the other one lives in Lexington.

SMITH: Okay.

ROBERTSON: She's got three kids.

SMITH: So you have three grandchildren?

ROBERTSON: Yeah, I'm afraid so. (Smith laughs) Afraid so.

SMITH: Do they like horses or are they too young?

ROBERTSON: A little bit, but their a little too young to be involved with them much.

SMITH: It's interesting how some people in families don't like to work with the horses at all even though they were raised with them and some really take to it.

ROBERTSON: Yeah, I don't know what causes them to go one way or another. I don't, I don't know but some people just can't be without them and other people can.

SMITH: Did you always want to work with Saddle Horses or did you ever have an interest in Thoroughbreds or any others?

ROBERTSON: Well, I've had a, I've done a little bit of everything. I've worked a few, uh, of course we work a lot of Hackney's and road horses and stuff, but I've had a Thoroughbred training license but I just out of a hobby. I haven't trained one in several years, but I've galloped 00:53:00them down, when I was a little skinnier, I've galloped horses down the Twin Spires before.

SMITH: Oh really?

ROBERTSON: Yeah.

SMITH: Is that, I mean did you do that as a trainer or is that your job to exercise them?

ROBERTSON: No, I, I just dabbled in it for several years there. I might keep one road, one Thoroughbred and claim it and race it a little bit and it'd get claimed and then do it with another one. Nothing--

SMITH: Did you enjoy it?

ROBERTSON: Yeah, I enjoyed it. It was a

SMITH: Racing's a little different than showing?

ROBERTSON: A little different. It's uh, the, downtime, you know, if you're gonna race you more or less have to take all day and have your horse over there and fool with him about all, I mean all day to get 00:54:00one horse raced and that'd get a little slow for me whereas over here I might work twenty horses you know.

SMITH: Um hum. Now what do you, what kind of a staff do you have working the farm now?

ROBERTSON: We have, Helen and I and two assistants, a girl and a boy and their youngsters. They are both 22 or 23 years old. One of them graduated from William Wood's College and the other one, uh, came over from the Morgan business,

SMITH: Yeah.

ROBERTSON: the boy, and he's done very well for us. They compliment one another well. We've both

SMITH: So you think you're gonna be here a while?

ROBERTSON: Yeah, this is, I'll be here till I'm not fooling with horses anymore.

SMITH: Okay.

ROBERTSON: And this barn is made, you saw it, there's stalls on the right and stalls on the left, so this is, it's made to where I could 00:55:00take, there's about twenty stalls on the right and about twenty-five stalls on the left. I could lease out twenty-five stalls and still have all I'd want to do and when I got older. I mean it's uh, it's where I could, the only thing, there's even, there's restrooms on both on both sides, tack rooms on both sides, uh,

SMITH: Sounds like two different barns.

ROBERTSON: There could be, the only thing we have to share is the arena, and I did when I came here and didn't have the barn full. I had a fellow who uh, ohleased thirteen or fourteen stalls and uh, from me and it worked out good. I mean we don't have to share anything but the arena.

SMITH: How do you see your work changing as you get older? I mean do you end up working horses differently?

ROBERTSON: Not to. Not to. It's uh, similar. We don't change too much.

SMITH: Okay.

ROBERTSON: Of course, got a young wife. (Smith laughs).

SMITH: What um, you know one of things I talked to David and a little bit with Joan about was caring for the horses. So much of that falls to the person responsible for boarding. Is that something you learned from your dad? Just basic care?

ROBERTSON: Yeah, I mean you just, you know you, you do and it's uh, it's hard to, it's hard to do the, not that we're taking shortcuts now, but it's hard to give horses the full attention now that we could back in the '50s and '60s really it's uh

SMITH: Why's that?

ROBERTSON: Well, there's a, it would be so expensive to have the kind of help to take care of two or three horses. I mean they have to take 00:57:00care of

SMITH: Okay.

ROBERTSON: six or seven now or something instead of two of three. You know the uh, the old Dodge stables they may take care of, spend all day rubbing, brushing them, and cleaning them and tending to them and it's just uh, it's hard to

SMITH: It's a lot of work.

ROBERTSON: It's a lot to, it's something we can't do now that we could do back then.

SMITH: Do you provide the vet care for your clients on the horses that are here?

ROBERTSON: No, they, we have a veterinarian that will come in here and he's here uh, oh several times a week.

SMITH: Okay.

ROBERTSON: It's a vet clinic right up there in Simpsonville and we tend to them and look after them when their sick but if it's something that concerns us we get a vet out here right away.

SMITH: Now back when your dad was running his stables, let's say the '40s, '50s, did they use vets as much or was there more

ROBERTSON: Pretty, very similar back then. It was, it wasn't too different. That part of it. It wasn't too different. He'd uh, you know we'd try to give our horses a chance without having the vet, but if there was any doubt we'd have them out there. That hasn't changed much.

SMITH: Are the horses basically a healthy breed? Do you have many problems?

ROBERTSON: Yeah, they, they are. They, they're, it's, that's one thing we're better at. Feeding and tending to our horses now. We know more about that than we did. Horses uh, horses you get to be thinking about retiring them thirty or forty years ago at nine or ten years old. Now now that's a pretty young horse. They can show right on until their twelve to fourteen years old or older. I've got a horse that's, he's a Standardbred, my daughter's horse was second at Louisville last year I 00:59:00think he was sixteen years old.

SMITH: Is that unusual or becoming more common?

ROBERTSON: Well, it's unusual to be that old but there's several of them that are doing awfully good in their teenagers, in their teen years.

SMITH: One of the things that people have commented on in both, in all the interviews that I've done related to horses, is how the help on the farms used to be dominantly, predominately African American and that's not necessarily the case. Was that your dad's experience? Have you seen that evolution?

ROBERTSON: Uh huh. That changes around. I mean, you'll end up with some. There will still be some good African American grooms and stuff but a lot of it now are, are the kids that are interested or there would be some Mexicans. A little bit of everything. But it's uh, there are 01:00:00some African Americans too that take care of horses -- still do.

SMITH: But not as many?

ROBERTSON: Probably not. Probably not.

SMITH: Um, another aspect of taking care of horses that seems pretty important are the blacksmiths. Have you worked with some pretty good blacksmiths over the years? Aren't they pretty critical to particularly how the Saddlebred with all the gaits that you have to

ROBERTSON: They are. I have been blessed. My dad had the Ernst's. You've probably heard their name. They were the official blacksmiths for years for Kentucky State Fair.

SMITH: No, I didn't know that.

ROBERTSON: There was a Forrest, is probably ninety and he had a brother and a son, and his son I think has just retired in the last few years 01:01:00and then I think Forrest had a father, that, I'm mean they've probably been, until the last couple of years, the only official blacksmiths that the State Fair's had.

SMITH: The last name is Ernst?

ROBERTSON: E-R-N-S-T.

SMITH: And it's a family, is that a family?

ROBERTSON: Uh huh. For years they did my father's work. They had uh, two brother's and a son. For years. And then uh

SMITH: Hm, I hadn't heard of them.

ROBERTSON: And then we started using a guy from Dayton, Ohio named Orville Atkins and then when he died I've had a couple of different ones, but the one I've got right now is Bud Willimon and he's uh, uh just a phenomenal fellow. He, he's in his seventies though. A great blacksmith from the olden days.

SMITH: What's his name again?

ROBERTSON: Bud Willimon -- W-I-L-L-I-M-O-N. It is very important, I 01:02:00mean he, he'll, he set the, he was over here today. I had to put a shoe on a horse today and uh, he uh, watched another one work that he was trying to do a little corrective shoeing with. And just, uh, it's important.

SMITH: Is it getting harder to find good blacksmiths?

ROBERTSON: You know it isn't. I mean it's a, they uh, he's always bringing along some younger ones and uh, there's several, several floating around here that are really good blacksmiths. The fellow we had just before him was a fellow from South Africa.

SMITH: Oh.

ROBERTSON: Yeah, there's big, big, big Saddlebred contingent in South Africa.

SMITH: Yeah, that's what I've heard. Joan was talking about that quite a bit.

ROBERTSON: South Africa is kind of like it was here in the '50s and 01:03:00early '60s. It's rural and a lot of people would have their own stable. It's, it's very similar. I've been over there and it's just like going back in time a little sometimes.

SMITH: How often have you been over there?

ROBERTSON: Just once.

SMITH: Now you're a judge, is that why you went?

ROBERTSON: Um hum.

SMITH: Now when did you get involved in judging.

ROBERTSON: Well, I came from a judging family. My father judged a lot and so in short work, I ended up judging a lot, and you'll see that a lot of guys. Some guys will grow up and their family didn't judge at all and they don't hardly judge at all. But my dad judged quite a bit so then I ended up judging a little bit.

SMITH: Is that a source of extra income, or is it something that you just enjoy doing?

ROBERTSON: It's, it's uh neither. I mean I enjoy it, but it's not enough of an income but you still need to do your part or we wouldn't 01:04:00have any judges.

SMITH: Is it hard to judge? I mean you run a race and see who goes over the finish line, but

ROBERTSON: Well it's, the hardest part is the bookkeeping. I mean it's not hard to decide what you like and what you don't like. But then you got to decide what you like second best, third best, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, nine, tenth, eleventh, twelfth best. They want you to mark twelve places even for an eight place class because of the computer. And, uh

SMITH: So that's changed, though, then when you probably first started judging?

ROBERTSON: Yeah, didn't have to back then but uh, that has changed. Everything is computerized now. But it's uh, the main thing is to try to keep track of them and you know then keep a little track of whose made a mistake that's gonna cost them one of the better ribbons, then how low do you put him, and that sort of thing.

SMITH: Yeah. So what all do you judge?

ROBERTSON: I judge uh Saddle Horses, Hackney's, roadsters.

SMITH: On all the different classes?

ROBERTSON: Yeah. Equitation. I'm judging Louisville this year.

SMITH: Yeah, I saw that.

ROBERTSON: Yeah.

SMITH: And what will you be judging there?

ROBERTSON: I'll judge, uh, I'm not gonna judge equitation cause Helen's gonna judge equitation and I don't, uh, it's not, it happens, it's just not something I care to believe in is I don't wanna be on the same panel that my wife's on.

SMITH: Yeah. I can understand that.

ROBERTSON: And so she'll do some equitation and I'll do some of the other stuff. I've judged equitation at Louisville a couple of times, but this, this year I won't.

SMITH: Are you showing, in Louisville?

ROBERTSON: No, not if you're judging. You don't show.

SMITH: Okay. Now your judging took you to South Africa. Where else have you judged?

ROBERTSON: Well, I've judged uh, the Royal Winter Fair in Toronto twice 01:06:00and that's uh, they're not, they used to have Saddle Horses there but they don't anymore. There's Saddle Horses in Canada but they don't show at the Royal Winter Fair. They have Hackney's and roadsters, but no Saddle Horses and then I've judged South Africa, I've judged Bermuda.

SMITH: Oh really?

ROBERTSON: Yeah. They've got a, they've got a pretty big show in Bermuda.

SMITH: Huh. Of Saddle Horses?

ROBERTSON: No, just a couple, I mean whatever they'd be. If they'd show, they showed in another carriage class or something. They just have. They have a pretty big show, about a three day show. Quite a good, quite a few horses in Bermuda.

SMITH: Really? Huh. I had no idea. So does that keep you pretty busy? As much judging as you do? Or is that

ROBERTSON: Well, I try to, I try to limit it or else I'd be gone all the time. I mean it's hard to stay gone. I turn down several shows a 01:07:00year. I turn down more than I take.

SMITH: Is that a problem for the industry? I mean as you were saying if you didn't do it, is this an issue?

ROBERTSON: Well, it is and it isn't. I mean there's uh, there's always seemed to be enough judges but sometimes they have a little trouble finding somebody that will take their time and judge Louisville. Sometimes it takes a pretty good look to be sure they find somebody to do a show like Louisville.

SMITH: And then as you say

ROBERTSON: That's qualified.

SMITH: Yeah, I know David was saying you know that because he bred horses and sold horses he didn't want to be a judge.

ROBERTSON: Yeah, I don't know of him judging any.

SMITH: But the other people like him who didn't see that as good option for them because of the business, the type of business they were in.

ROBERTSON: Yeah, some of 'em are, some people, some people it doesn't suit at all to judge and some people don't mind doing it and uh, Larry Hodge, I don't think he's got a judges card, Joan's husband.

SMITH: Hm. We didn't talk about that.

ROBERTSON: I don't think so.

SMITH: But I noticed you had a status of RR status. What does that mean? Are there various levels of judging?

ROBERTSON: Yeah there's a small "r" and big "R" and one is after you've done one or two, I don't know the whole format now, then you apply for the next level up and that's, uh, most people are, and it doesn't really make any difference. Some people keep small "r" end up, might end up judging Louisville. They may keep a small "r" just cause they don't get around to getting the large "R."

SMITH: Hm. Is it, uh, if you're looking to make a living with Saddlebreds as a trainer or as somebody that does maybe more than that, is that a hard life? Is that hard to do these days? Can you make a living at it?

ROBERTSON: It's. it's hard. It is. It's hard to make a living uh, you 01:09:00know I guess anybody, the guys who own the shoe store say it's hard to make a living running a

SMITH: Yeah.

ROBERTSON: shoe store but it is, it's hard, you know you are gone a lot, you know you might be gone twenty weeks of a year, and that doesn't make it a bit easy

SMITH: Yeah.

ROBERTSON: It's a, with the traveling comes a fair amount of expense and uh, but there are other people who, like Thoroughbred trainers, they're on the road basically all the time so there are, there are worse things. (Smith laughs).

SMITH: So when you look back on your life working with horses, do you have any regrets, has this been

ROBERTSON: I don't think I do. I've got a, I don't have any regrets. I've uh had a pretty good life counting everything. I mean you know 01:10:00there's a lot of times you wish, might wish you would have maybe spent a little more time with your kids and stuff like that, but I don't think I have what you call any regrets. I might have done or tried to do things a little differently.

SMITH: But you've enjoyed working with horses?

ROBERTSON: Um hum. Um hum. I've been involved with the UPHA quite a bit more than like say my dad was. I've been President of the UPHA twice, and

SMITH: Yeah, I saw that. Now that organization's not real old, is it?

ROBERTSON: It's probably forty years old.

SMITH: Okay. Yeah. There was a story in this book about it getting started.

ROBERTSON: Yeah and uh it's, oh I'm thinking somewhere forty.

SMITH: Now how does an organization like that help the industry?

ROBERTSON: Well it, it helps make, it helps us who know a little bit 01:11:00about footing and horses, and things. It started out, that was kind of big help to somebody who might have been running a horse show that didn't know a whole lot about horses that uh, things that we needed for better conditions for our horses where the footing is, if the footing is historically not good at a horse show, we'd work with the people to, we would work with them to try to make the footings better. Uh, the, there's different programs we've worked with to make the prize money better for things like that. It's uh, we never could uh, we worked on trying, but it never was easy to do as far as getting an insurance 01:12:00program going for some of our peers but uh, I think now about everybody has insurance but fifteen years ago maybe they didn't and we'd try to work with that, but it was hard to do. It's still kind of at the most a thousand, a thousand person organization which, but that's not so bad, but from forty-five different states and all your, it's hard to when you're so much around the country, it's hard to go to one state where insurance rules might be different from another.

SMITH: Absolutely.

ROBERTSON: That made it hard to do whereas uh, if you were strictly Kentuckians then you could probably come together with some sort of a decent plan.

SMITH: Now that is a national organization. Does it have state chapters?

ROBERTSON: Um hum. Yeah, there's a, well states and some are two or 01:13:00three states lumped together some of them, but it's all over. It's a--

SMITH: Now you were President like in the early '90s and then again around the turn-of-the-century?

ROBERTSON: Yeah, uh huh. I was the President probably '91 and 2 and then again '02-3 or somewhere in there.

SMITH: What were some of the issues that you dealt with? I mean insurance you've mentioned.

ROBERTSON: Well, uh, while I was Vice-President and before I became President is when they had a big issue about how to uh, when the Walking Horses were having a little trouble and we had to deal with how much foot we were allowed to put on our horses and things like that and, cause it's a different deal, but a lot of people would lump us with Walking Horses.

SMITH: Okay.

ROBERTSON: Although it was completely different. Uh, now we're involved 01:14:00right now with the, the, the bill about disclosure of the ownership of horses that's going all over the whole Thoroughbred and--

SMITH: Okay, yeah.

ROBERTSON: We're gonna be on that. Some of our people are going to be on that committee with the Thoroughbred and the Morgan -- all the other breeds.

SMITH: Is this in regards to selling horses?

ROBERTSON: Selling and a lot of it through the sales and how to have to declare all the vet work. I mean there's reasons for all that but the, the bill that was presented to the, it would have been hard to have it logical so we got the, Walt was a major player in that, to get them to let us go back to the table and work in a group to try to get together the kind of standards that we can all live with.

SMITH: What are all the uh breeds that are represented under the UPHA?

ROBERTSON: Mostly Morgan, Saddle Horses, Roadsters, and Hackney's. 01:15:00There are a few Arabians. Uh, very few Walking Horse, but uh mostly saddles -- Saddle Horses.

SMITH: So would this be the group or is it the Saddlebred Association that would sort of represent your interests at a national, on things that affect the entire industry?

ROBERTSON: Well a little bit of both. I mean it's uh, far as UPHA members, it's all our livelihood.

SMITH: Right.

ROBERTSON: Now there are people that are Saddlebred Horse Association members that, it isn't exactly their livelihood

SMITH: Yeah.

ROBERTSON: But it's important to them. So it's a little bit of both. We tried to, us and the Saddlebred Office, we try to work good together and we do most of the time.

SMITH: Okay, where is that based? Is that based here in Kentucky?

ROBERTSON: They're both in uh.

SMITH: The Horse Park?

ROBERTSON: The Horse Park. Uh huh.

SMITH: Yeah it seems everyone is either there or coming there.

ROBERTSON: Yeah, the Breeder's Office has been there for years and then we've been there for a long time with the UPHA, about as long, and then just in the last ten years the USEF is there now. United States Equestrian Federation, and I mean there's pony clubs, there's all kinds of stuff over there. Probably twenty different organizations.

SMITH: Yeah, at least.

ROBERTSON: Farriers.

SMITH: The uh, one of the things that I've talked with in some of the interviews is the fact that there are so many groups is that the industry seems to be so fragmented and sometimes its hard to deal with big issues, use of medication or the sales tax issues because there are so many large groups. Is that something you see?

ROBERTSON: Yeah, it's uh, it is, but I mean just uh, if we can work together like we're going to with this bill that you've just, we've been talking about and I mean we all uh, we all really have the same issues. I mean it's uh, the horses eat the same, basically, uh we have agents as do Thoroughbred people. I mean, uh, we have auctions as they do, uh. We have uh, we may do a few more, depend on private sales maybe more so than the Thoroughbred people, but they do that too and it's just uh, we need to all get along and work together on any of these things. Sales tax I think would be wonderful if we could uh, you 01:18:00know I mean this is a farm and uh, if uh, if I put a cow in that field, I don't have to pay sales tax on his feed. But because it's a horse, I have to pay sales tax on his feed, and that doesn't, that's something that really probably ought to be changed.

SMITH: Yeah, yeah, I've heard that from several people. That's a key issue. Other things I hear a lot about are the use of medications with horses. Is this something you see as a problem in the Saddlebred world? Or, I don't whether the illegal use or what some people might consider illegal use or not necessarily good.

ROBERTSON: You know that happens. I mean it's kind of a, animation is so important to our breed more so than say Thoroughbreds or even 01:19:00hunters and jumpers or anything. Ani-, animation is so important, therefore, there is room for abuse there but when most of the, even these shows around here, our shows -- Lexington, Louisville, and Kansas City are so important that uh we can't afford to, the USEF brings their drug crews to those shows.

SMITH: Right.

ROBERTSON: So we can't afford to cheat at those shows and risk getting in trouble so uh if you can't do it at those major shows, it doesn't make much sense to try to do it at Lawrenceburg, which isn't recognized,

SMITH: That's true.

ROBERTSON: where they don't have the drug testers, so it's really, it's not the problem it was years ago because uh, the horses have to go to 01:20:00those major shows and all the major shows are recognized.

SMITH: Someone was telling me that you often get penalized for drugs that really are just to make a horse feel better but aren't drugs that necessarily were to enhance the performance, but maybe calm them when they travel or something.

ROBERTSON: Well you know it's uh, the thing about it is, is uh like a hunter, hunter-jumper horse, they need to be smoother and quieter while their going over their jumps and being judged. But, uh, if you have a horse that you have trouble hauling that you could give them some of these quieter drugs like acepromazine or something, where do you stop and where do you start because you can find, you can trace acepromazine back eleven or twelve days into a horse, so, so uh, you need to figure 01:21:00out a way to haul them because if you let them, if you let 'em go to a horse show on acepromazine to be hauled, then it's still gonna be in their system unless you go two weeks before which you're not gonna do.

SMITH: Yeah, who could afford that.

ROBERTSON: So, so it's a, well what it is is "where do you stop and where do you start?" So that's where the tolerance is and sometimes people get caught in the middle by uh, giving a horse something to help them. You know if they cut their leg and have to be tranquilized to get their leg sewed back on then a week or so later that's healed enough for them to show, but they may still have the uh, tranquilizer medicine in them and then they probably shouldn't show without the risk of being tested you know, and its a

SMITH: Is uh, what's allowed different, different from show to show? Or, 01:22:00is it mostly the major ones now?

ROBERTSON: Well, something like acepromazine is zero tolerance. So if they see trace, trace, trace from an accident or an incident ten days or two weeks earlier, it can still show up so, uh, there are levels of different things. I mean there's certain amount for butazolodin and certain amount for banomine, flunixin, but the two

SMITH: So some things are allowed at a certain?

ROBERTSON: But the two of them can't be in there together even if you, even if one of them was used a week or ten days ago, they can still find it in there. The, and uh, so we just, you about have to be a darn chemist or just use very little of it and, or if you start a horse using something, try to stay with that for this particular horse so you're not gonna get caught by giving him the wrong dosage or something.

SMITH: Huh. Sounds complicated.

ROBERTSON: It is, if you just, but if you just, try to just to stay consistent. The best thing is not to use much of it and it's not, and it's like you, if you have a headache

SMITH: Right.

ROBERTSON: you'll feel better if you take an aspirin, but if you had a headache right now, you could still conduct this interview. So I mean it's kind of like that. I mean so we just try to use very little or no, I mean we all use a little of it, but it's, it's uh, that's the main thing is "where do you stop and where do you start?" So therefore they're pretty, you can get penalized pretty severe for something that really wouldn't amount to too much but,

SMITH: Right.

ROBERTSON: The reason is somebody's done the same thing you've done to try to get an edge.

SMITH: Right, done it for the wrong reason.

ROBERTSON: Instead of, yeah.

SMITH: Um. What other things are challenging to the industry right now, I know uh, of course I read an awful lot about the issues relating to the slaughtering of horses. I don't know if that's a major concern in the Saddlebred world or not.

ROBERTSON: Well, it is and it isn't. It's not anything to really, I mean it's uh, their not doing too much of it anymore and haven't done it lately so, much of it, it's uh

SMITH: It doesn't seem you have the overproduction problems.

ROBERTSON: We don't have. There's a use for all of our horses mostly, in some way or another which some breeds may not but there's a use some way for a horse of some kind whether it's breeding or lessons, or something and I, I don't call it near the problem of some people who 01:25:00might have just a ton of cheap horses out there.

SMITH: Yeah.

ROBERTSON: Where are they gonna go? And, uh, I don't know of anybody that's slaughtering horses in the United States anymore. Maybe they don't. I don't think so.

SMITH: Well, what I've read lately it seems like it's pretty much shut down at this point. There was a couple of articles in the paper recently that seemed like it was more of a problem in eastern Kentucky than perhaps in this part of the state.

ROBERTSON: Yeah, I don't know where there's been any kind of a rendering house around here.

SMITH: No, well, I don't.

ROBERTSON: I don't know. The last I heard, maybe they went to Canada or something. It's just not.

SMITH: Well, when uh, I got on your website. And uh,

ROBERTSON: Did you?

SMITH: Yes, of course. And I was reading some Jimmiyisms. (Robertson laughs). That sounds similar to some of things I heard your father's 01:26:00quotes so you have your own reputation with the industry it seems like.

ROBERTSON: Well, I don't, I don't know about that. We've had a lot of fun with that website. The girl that put that together for us is from Alabama and every Saturday that we're home and she's home, every Saturday, she gets up at 4:00 or 5:00 in the morning and drives up here, spends two or three hours

SMITH: Really.

ROBERTSON: riding and driving her horses and turns around and drives back and uh so she has a lot of time to, uh, she's an executive in a uh, oh I forget, not a bank but it's a similar thing like that.

SMITH: A financial institution of some sort.

ROBERTSON: Some sort of financial institution.

SMITH: And you have her, you board her horses?

ROBERTSON: Two, and we work horses for her. She's got two here. One 01:27:00horse and one Hackney pony -- road pony. And uh, but she's put that together and it's been, it's been fun. We've had a good time with it.

SMITH: Yeah, it's a nice website. I also noticed the t-shirts, Jimmy's hens, is that what they're called? (laughs)

ROBERTSON: How they ended up with that I don't know, but we were off showing up here at one of these shows in Shelby County and all of a sudden every female we had had one of those black t-shirts on and they had fun with it and we got all our pictures with it and everything and it was fun.

SMITH: So how, when you train people are they predominately females?

ROBERTSON: Well it's a little bit of everything. We've got a young man here that rides with us, Will Harris, and he's from below Nashville. And he and his mother come up every Saturday.

SMITH: Every Saturday?

ROBERTSON: Every Saturday. And ride and turn around and go back and 01:28:00sometimes they'll hook up and come up together those two cause the Alabama girl has to come through Nashville and you know it's more of a, there are more girls in the sport than boys but there's still plenty of boys. We have two young riders, one of 'em is, that are boys. One of them is this Will Harris and the other one is Don Mattingly, the baseball players' son whose, he's a, he's a bench coach of the New York Yankees now and his son loves to show and has a nice horse that he shows.

SMITH: And you keep it here?

ROBERTSON: They live over in Evansville. Uh huh. And, uh, there are maybe a few more girls, but it's uh, there are plenty of boys too.

SMITH: Do the boys that show, do they often get interested in training?

ROBERTSON: Yeah, a little, boys and girls do. Yeah there's uh, it's different than it was. Years ago it was mostly guys and now it's probably about 50/50. Probably about as many girl trainers as boy trainers, but uh, years ago, other than Ms. Crabtree, about everybody was, other than riding instructors, about everybody were, all of them were men.

SMITH: And that included uh equitation and?

ROBERTSON: Yeah. I mean really uh, before Helen Crabtree came along, I mean they had instructors but most of the teachers and trainers, of course she's be around a long time,

SMITH: Yeah, she was,

ROBERTSON: she was, but her and dad uh, were competitors a lot in a lot of that years ago.

SMITH: You were just telling me something about, when we were out in the barn, and I was asking about Shelby County seeming to be the Saddlebred capital of the world. You said your dad was, when he was at Rock Creek and he knew the Crabtree's at that point?

ROBERTSON: The Crabtree's were at Rock Creek and then they bought a farm out here where they are now in Simpsonville and when they went to, there a fellow, Lonnie Lavrey's uncle is who it was, Tommy Lavery came in here for a short period of time and then my father came in and uh, but the Crabtree's coming out here was the start of Shelby County being the horse, Saddlehorse capital of the world. That was the, the one incident that caused people to want to come to, so then they, when they did move out there, that's about the same time, or close enough to when 01:31:00dad moved over there to Rock Creek, so that became a big force, then this place, and then other stables came. Don Harris ends up over here uh, uh, Hayfield Farm ends up, was right across the street from the Crabtree's. It was oh, maybe down around the zoo or somewhere and that land got too expensive so they moved out.

SMITH: Okay.

ROBERTSON: The fact they took a barn down in, somewhere in downtown Louisville. I've never been there, brought it out here and built it back across the street from the Crabtree's. Right next door to where uh, Rob and Sarah's Premiere Stables are now.

SMITH: So is, as I guess has urban growth in Jefferson County started pushing more people into this area too?

ROBERTSON: Um hum. Exactly. I mean it's still, it's still going. There are people looking right now to find a place around here.

SMITH: Well there seems to be a lot of farms but uh,

ROBERTSON: Yeah.

SMITH: I imagine it gets kind of expensive.

ROBERTSON: Well, there's a, there's a, I know ten or twelve years ago when I was like thinking about leaving Rock Creek there were several options and there aren't as many now. People are, in just those few years it's changed enough to where if I had to find another barn to lease or even buy, I don't know where I'd find it right now.

SMITH: Now how long did you say you were here, you've been here at Infinity?

ROBERTSON: Oh down here six or seven years maybe.

SMITH: Did you have trouble locating this place when you came?

ROBERTSON: No, I had a horse for this guy and his daughter rode and I had a horse for him. And this barn was all but empty and I was outgrowing the place of Kris Price's on 60. And Kris, she's an insurance agent who is also a professional, and she got busier and we both, uh, kind of outgrew one another. She had like a twenty-five 01:33:00or thirty stall barn and it just wasn't big enough for both of us and that's when I got this place and she uh, now she's over there and her and her husband are operating a stable there and uh, now I've got these forty something stalls full.

SMITH: Is that enough?

ROBERTSON: I'm kind of like my dad. How ever many there is, I need about two more. (Smith laughs) And that's how he was, that's how he was. (laughs)

SMITH: Well that works. That works. Hm. Well, uh, let's see where my questions are I don't follow them very much, I just ask questions.

ROBERTSON: Uh oh.

SMITH: Now when did your dad get into the Hall of Fame, do you know?

ROBERTSON: Somewhere in the early 90s for the UPHA and the Kentucky State Fair Hall of Fames.

SMITH: And you've had a few honors to I think I've read.

ROBERTSON: Oh I don't know, nothing like those. But he's, he's a,

SMITH: Well, you're still pretty young.

ROBERTSON: Yeah, I hope so. (Smith laughs) So do you, you hope I'm young don't you?

SMITH: Exactly right. That's exactly right. Okay, there's one thing I see, your own show experience, Golden Dutchess, I read about her.

ROBERTSON: I had her uh, dad had her, and when I moved to Rock Creek, the fellow who owned her sent her up here with me and I showed her a couple of times but what we did was put her in the ring for Lonnie Lavery's daughter and she won the juvenile and the junior juvenile championship and a pretty high powered horse ----------(??). At the time she was just a kid and she, at Lexington uh,

SMITH: Junior?

ROBERTSON: Junior League Horse Show and then Lonnie's family bought this horse. He was a horse trainer and his daughter was still in school, 01:35:00and they took her and they won the Juvenile stake two straight years at the Kentucky State Fair. She was one of the very nicest horses that I had to work and show but.

SMITH: You just had her for a few years.

ROBERTSON: I just had her less than a year.

SMITH: Was she one of your favorites?

ROBERTSON: Yeah she was. I mean there are others but she was, she was one of the favorites.

SMITH: Who are some of the others?

ROBERTSON: I've had a couple of really, really good road ponies that I'm partial to. The most decorated was a pony called Speed Limit who won the stake at Louisville and won four juvenile classes at Louisville and she was real good and then the Wheeler family owned him, this horse, this pony and he was, he was, he might have been twenty years old the last time he won at Louisville.

SMIRH: My gosh. That is old.

ROBERTSON: Yeah, he was a Hackney breed. They call them road ponies. His division was pulling a two-wheel cart, but uh, and uh, since then I've had a couple of good luck pieces with a couple of other juvenile road ponies. I've had a, four or five different juvenile road ponies that won the stake at Louisville, Juvenile for Youth.

SMITH: Now, have you shown them or do you train other people?

ROBERTSON: I showed this pony and won the stake at Louisville one year with him and I was second another year, but the other times the, the boys showed him. We did a, had a lot of good luck with me and with dad getting the, the boys doing something while the older sisters riding and we get them driving, drive road ponies and stuff. It worked out good.

SMITH: Huh. I hadn't thought of that. Do the girls like to drive or do 01:37:00they prefer to ride?

ROBERTSON: Oh yeah, they do, they do. But the, the guys, a lot of them, you know that little need for speed, and that type of thing, it just fit for several kids of some of the boys to do. And uh, of course, the girls too. It just fit, like Kenny Wheeler, his mother was a grand lady in the horse business and his father was a hunter-jumper trainer and so Kenny naturally ended up wanting to do something. First thing he ended up doing was showing road ponies with us

SMITH: Oh, okay.

ROBERTSON: while his mother drove a fine harness horse for dad.

SMITH: Is there much overlap in the hunter-jumper world and the Saddlebred world, and some of the others?

ROBERTSON: Not a lot. Not a lot. It's uh, we're basically on two different circuits.

SMITH: Okay.

ROBERTSON: We don't uh, there's just a couple of shows that I go to that have hunters and they probably just have a couple of shows they go to 01:38:00that have Saddle Horses. But the Devon, Pennsylvania show. It's a, really big in hunter and jumper and big enough in Saddle Horses, but that's about the only show we go to that have uh, Oh Kansas City has, American Royal, has a hunter show, but it's not even the same week as our show.

SMITH: Oh okay.

ROBERTSON: And so is the St. Louis National Horse Show, but that's a different week too. But as far as us going, showing or the clearing the jumps and dragging the ring and having the Saddlehorses come in,

SMITH: Doesn't happen?

ROBERTSON: really there's just one or two shows we do that at.

SMITH: You talk about shows, do you have, except for the world championship, do you have a favorite show?

ROBERTSON: Well, yeah, I like, uh, like, I've been going to Harrodsburg in Mercer County myself fifty years so I'm partial to that one. And 01:39:00uh, almost that much for Lawrenceburg and these major county fairs. Of course, over here at Shelbyville, there's several shows. We'd go there. I like to go to Devon and have some customers that are from up there now in Pennsylvania and I like to hit that show some. And uh, we went last year and gonna go again this year and hopefully we can keep going up there and it's uh. I want to try to help that show out because it's gotten to be such a big hunter-jumper show, I don't wanna lose the Saddlehorses from it.

SMITH: I can understand that. Do you have any, when you look back on your career in the show ring, is there any particular experience stand out?

ROBERTSON: You know.

SMITH: It could be good or bad.

ROBERTSON: So much of ours is uh, is what other people have done. I know like last year I got to win the gaited championship at Devon, Pennsylvania, and I'm trying, and I haven't found out yet whether my father had ever won it or not, I don't know if he had or not, and it was a big thrill anyway, but it would really be a good thrill if it's the one that got away from him and I don't know, I haven't found out yet or not on that.

SMITH: They don't have the records of that?

ROBERTSON: Oh, it's hard to find them. It's hard to find them. There's no one spot you can go to. About the only way is to check magazines back umpteen years but you know you'd have to go back, dad's probably been going there forty years you know, and so you know it would be hard to do. But uh,

SMITH: What was the horse called?

ROBERTSON: A horse called Desert's Gates of Fire. He belongs to a girl here uh, in Louisville. She's a lawyer in Louisville and she's uh, he 01:41:00wasn't quite ready last year for her to show but he will be this year and she's gonna show him some this year.

SMITH: Well good.

ROBERTSON: But, oh uh, the best one thing I can think of, I think it was '96 but Sarah Cronan, who was Mary Anne Cronan's daughter, and uh, she won the equitation championship at Kentucky State Fair. And so I mean it was, Helen's mother was a trainer and instructor and my par-, my mother, my father was a trainer and instructor and we trained this horse. Her mother was a, a long-time exhibitor and she won the class. 01:42:00It was the class that got away from her mother. Her mother won all kinds of classes, never won the equitation stake at Louisville and just that was, as far as any individual, not that that's individual but that was fun was doing that. As far as, and it was, and everybody was second generation just about.

SMITH: Yeah, it seems like there's a lot of people who have carried on and still have those legacies.

ROBERTSON: Well, it is. You know and it's important now because you think about it. Everybody that you know and everybody that I know are our age group have been around horses while they've been a service animal. I mean you've got a father, grandfather, somebody, that you've probably seen work horses or seen about working horses. I have. Our 01:43:00children, and grandchildren, from here on out, there's not gonna be those people. So for them to get the passion to show a horse, it's gonna have to come from the love of an animal or it's not gonna come from a familiarity.

SMITH: Not from experience.

ROBERTSON: That you or me or Misdee's family or anybody else may have. I mean I can remember riding my, riding a horse for my granddad to town so he could get him shod when I was a little boy. Those things aren't in the cards anymore. I mean from here on out, nobody's gonna, other than the odd Amish, nobody's gonna see a horse being used as a service animal. And so we're gonna have to get the passion either 01:44:00from our families or just 'cause we love a horse, or lesson programs or something, but it's not come from familiarity anymore.

SMITH: It seems though that these second or third generations that are working with horses do have a strong passion for it.

ROBERTSON: Um hum. It does, and it's good. I mean you know there's a whole lot of people that whose parents and grandparents used to train that are, that are training now -- and that's good. I just hope we don't run out of them.

SMITH: But now in your family, that's not gonna happen? Cause one daughter is allergic and the other is--

ROBERTSON: Well yeah. She won't be a trainer so I mean it's, it'll stop with me I guess.

SMITH: I don't know if Walt has any kids that are interested in it.

ROBERTSON: Yes, but one's a doctor and one's a lawyer so they'll be to, they'll be too rich to be old horse trainers. (laughs) (coughs)

SMITH: Well, I'm, I'm still learning as I'm from the outside of the industry and didn't know much about horses before we got started and I learned something, I learned a lot actually from many interviews. Is there anything about working the Saddlebreds that I haven't brought up that you think we should talk about?

ROBERTSON: I don't think so. I think it's uh, I think you've covered it pretty good.

SMITH: (laughs). Now I've got a long list, probably not long enough when it comes to Saddlebreds and we've mentioned a couple of people that um, that we do have for me to talk to over the course of the next three years if we get this project off the ground. But um, who would you think would need to be interviewed?

ROBERTSON: Well you're gonna see Redd. Is Don Harris on there anywhere?

SMITH: No, I don't think he is actually. I, I know of him, but I don't--

ROBERTSON: I think that would be a good interview.

SMITH: Okay.

ROBERTSON: And I know you've interviewed Joan and you've interviewed David which is covering a pretty good amount of it. You may want to think about interview-, interviewing Ed Teater

SMITH: Okay. Okay.

ROBERTSON: and that's Earl Teater's son and he's elderly, but he would still, it would still be a good interview. He's not, probably not seventy yet.

SMITH: Is there anyone in their, in their eighties or so that you can think of that I maybe should get too soon versus later.

ROBERTSON: Well, I don't know how you're gonna do it. I don't know if Charlie Crabtree is capable yet on that, and uh.

SMITH: Yeah, I was gonna check with Redd whenever we were able to do the interview to see if his dad would be up to it.

ROBERTSON: And uh, I'm trying to think. Do they need to be Kentucky based?

SMITH: Not necessarily. We don't have the money to go out of state, but we can interview people when they come into the state if they have an influence or part of Kentucky's industry but just happen to live out of state and come and go, then that's fine.

ROBERTSON: Uh huh. I'm trying to think who else.

SMITH: I've got Donna Moore,

ROBERTSON: Donna.

SMITH: Mitch Clark. I don't think I have my list with me, but uh, shoot now I'm drawing blank. David mentioned a trainer that was in a nursing 01:48:00home, a Kenny Walker. I don't know much on him.

ROBERTSON: Yeah. I don't know. He's in a nursing home right down there in Lawrenceburg and it might be a little too late to get anything out of him. He was a, I don't think he'd be a

SMITH: And Mike Spencer's on the list.

ROBERTSON: There's a guy and who is a very sharp and aware and he lives in Arizona named Lee Shipman.

SMITH: Okay, someone has mentioned him I think.

ROBERTSON: Lee Shipman uh, catch him at home. I know he'll probably be here during the State Fair or something but he, he would be a, a good 01:49:00one to get. And he's a,

SMITH: Okay. Maybe I can work something out during the State Fair cause I imagine a lot of other people come in for that.

ROBERTSON: Lee would be here and he would just be here watching. He wouldn't be here to show. He's through with that. And I think, and he used to work for Plainview Farm over there and I think he would really be a good interview unless he slipped a lot and I don't think he has. I think he would really be a good guy for y'all to talk to.

SMITH: Okay. Now you've mentioned somebody. Bud Willimon,

ROBERTSON: Bud Willimon is uh, blacksmith

SMITH: the blacksmith ,any other old time workers on the farms that you can think of?

ROBERTSON: You know you may want to talk to some of the Ernst family too.

SMITH: Okay.

ROBERTSON: Forrest Ernst and uh, you may want to have sit down together 01:50:00or something. It might be fun.

SMITH: Where are they based?

ROBERTSON: Forrest Ernst and Jack and Phil Ernst are in Louisville. I can get you their phone numbers

SMITH: Okay. That'd be good.

ROBERTSON: and I don't know who would uh, Mr. Ernst just lost his wife last week, the oldest one did, and uh, but he, that would be a great interview with him. That may need to be pretty quick, maybe the three boys. The father, the son, and the brother of the father who, and you might need all three of them together and then Bud Willimon. That might need to be, be pretty good without him, but he's kind of the matriarch of it. That might be really be a neat one. I can get you his phone numbers and stuff.

SMITH: That sounds good. Well if you can think of anybody else, you can 01:51:00get in touch with me or well like I say it's, I'm going to I have to turn my attention to Quarter Horses and Standardbred for a little while and uh, but by the time the State Fair gets here that might be a good time to try to catch some of these people or you know, June get back to doing something like Mr. Ernst. Forrest Ernst is probably about ready to do it right now.

ROBERTSON: You know you may want to, you may want to try to visit with them one morning or something during Rock Creek or something.

SMITH: When's Rock Creek?

ROBERTSON: That's the first of June.

SMITH: Okay.

ROBERTSON: Uh, let me get your card or your phone numbers and I'll uh, I wanna leave him alone for a couple or three weeks because he just last week, like Tuesday, or something -- lost his wife.

SMITH: Yeah, but they've mentioned, some people have mentioned Glyndle.

ROBERTSON: Glyndle Tabor.

SMITH: But they feel that he's still not,

ROBERTSON: He's just had a stroke. I don't think there's anything left there to do and he's just. Glyndle's son was one of my very best friends. I was a pallbearer at his funeral. He was like fifty and had an accident on his farm and got killed.

SMITH: Oh how awful.

ROBERTSON: Just last May and uh, he uh.

SMITH: I'm sorry. He was a trainer too, wasn't he?

ROBERTSON: He was a trainer and a breeder and he had like 150 broodmares but that's the only one. I think we've missed him. Afraid we missed him.

SMITH: Okay. And I wouldn't want to bother him if he's still, cause his son would come up in the conversation I'm sure, so.

ROBERTSON: Yeah, well, I mean it does, I mean he'll, his son was so much 01:53:00of his life. He'd just start talking about his son and start crying. I mean it's sad.

SMITH: Okay, well I'll go ahead and end this.

ROBERTSON: Are we done?

SMITH: Yeah, I'll hit stop.

[End of interview.]