Interview with William R. McGee, October 31, 2007

FALLON: I don't know where to, where to start. (all laugh)

MCGEE: Talk about Henry. I saw him out to Keeneland last week he's kind of bent over a little bit.

FALLON: Yeah, getting a little feeble.

MCGEE: Yeah.

FALLON: Very dependent on his cane.

MCGEE: Yeah.

FALLON: And he's, he's had a fall or two.

MCGEE: Yeah, that's.--I haven't had any hard falls. I get tangled up in the weeds out in the yard once in awhile.

FALLON: I have to watch it when I get up or ah, I'll fall down

MCGEE: Yeah.

FALLON: Once I get going I'm all right.

SMITH: I took Mr. White out to lunch yesterday, and we had to go someplace where there were steps. Made me a little nervous, but he did pretty well.

MCGEE: Yeah, as long as there's not too many.

SMITH: Yeah, yeah. Okay I think this is ah, this is ready to go, 00:01:00and I'll go ahead and put the introduction on here. This is Kim Lady Smith, and today is October 31, Halloween, 2007 and today I'm interviewing Dr. William McGee at the Hagyard Equine Medical Institute and with us also is Dr. Ed Fallon. We're doing this interview for the Horse Industry in Kentucky Oral History Project at the University of Kentucky. So, Dr. McGee, um, you start by telling me your full name and when and where you were born?

MCGEE: Well, William Ray McGee. I was born in a little, about a 200 people town in Montana called Corvallis.

SMITH: Corvallis?

MCGEE: Corvallis, Montana.

SMITH: Okay.

MCGEE: In the Bitterroot Valley.

SMITH: Okay.

MCGEE: I put, that's about all I can tell you where it is. You'd never find it but--

FALLON: its 10 or 12 miles north of Hamilton?

MCGEE: About 6 miles south.

FALLON: South of Hamilton

MCGEE: But--it's a small town, and--

SMITH: And what year were you born?

MCGEE: 1917.

SMITH: Okay,--and what, who were your parents? Tell me your parents' names?

MCGEE: Oh, dad's name was Lloyd Marcus McGee, and ah, mother's name was Ada Mae Johnson before she was married.

SMITH: And what did your father do for a living?

MCGEE: Father was, ah, really started out as a youngster, as a blacksmith.

SMITH: Oh, okay.

MCGEE: I think he started at age 16,--and he worked up,--until wartime-- 00:03:00He was a--a high steelworker, and a electrician.

SMITH: In wartime, what was that World War One or--

MCGEE: Two.

SMITH: Two. Okay. Okay.

MCGEE: And, well, see, that would've been one, not one, but two now. I'm getting up to the--

SMITH: That's okay we had a couple--

MCGEE: getting up to, to the Vietnam War.

SMITH: Okay. So um, was your family; was his family from Montana, had they been there a while?

MCGEE: Yes. Mother's dad was a homesteader in northern Montana, and dad's family were,--well they were out in Montana, but moving around quite a bit, they didn't really get to the homestead part of it. They, they were longtime Montana family, pretty well grew up with the country 00:04:00out there.

SMITH: So you said the town was like 200 people?

MCGEE: Yeah, Corvallis--Hamilton was about 5000 I guess and,--Actually it was, it was a little bigger town but it was established by Marcus Daly who was responsible, more or less, for the Anaconda Copper, Copper Company. And he started his horse farm outside of Hamilton and literally damned up the river, and provided irrigation, and power, and everything for the city of Hamilton, and this was in the 1800's, earlier. And, actually the Montana - Kentucky connection, as far 00:05:00as I was concerned, started way back there because, when Marcus Daly became able to--, he bought a large acreage in Bitterroot Valley, which Hamilton was more or less the center, and began a horse operation. He had broodmares for Thoroughbreds, and he had some Standardbreds too-- ----------(??).

FALLON: I, I don't recall.

MCGEE: But anyway, where that comes in, when he was at the height of his equine operation, Dr. Ed Hagyard went back and was resident veterinarian for that farm, and he made a lot of friends and, in fact, after he came to Kentucky and was established here with the firm, he would go back to Montana each summer for vacation and visit his friends 00:06:00and subsequently Dr. Charlie got in the same, same habit. He met all the people and Charlie had a, well he had a cabin, then he had a home on Flathead Lake and went out each summer when he was, could get away to vacation. That's how, that the mutual friend of ours knew I was interested in horses and he just insisted I meet Dr. Charlie when he was out there. And he arranged a meeting and this was between my junior and senior year in college, and Dr. Charlie and I talked for quite awhile, and he said well if I was interested to that extent I could be welcome down here for a year's internship. And then whatever I want 00:07:00to do then, just--I thought perhaps about going back to California, and did in fact take the state board in California before I came down here.

SMITH: Now, where did you go to college?

MCGEE: Washington State.

SMITH: Okay.

MCGEE: And got out of--graduated from college, on the fifth of June, got married on the seventh of June, and took the state boards in California on about the 15th, and 16th, and 17th of June. And wound up in Lexington on the 27th of June. (both laugh)

SMITH: Oh my gosh! Let me take you back a little bit, to your childhood and what was your education like in your early childhood?

MCGEE: Oh, just grade school small-town and high school in Hamilton. We 00:08:00moved to Hamilton. And ah--

SMITH: Did you have any brothers and sisters?

MCGEE: No.

SMITH: Okay.

MCGEE: Nope.

SMITH: Only child. When did you--

MCGEE: I didn't have any brothers or sisters till I moved to Kentucky and then Dr. Charlie adopted me (both laugh) so from then on--

SMITH: You had a family, bigger family.

MCGEE: He was,--Dr. Charlie was more like a brother than most brothers are.

SMITH: I've heard some stories about him, we'll, we'll get to those. So when did you decide you wanted to work with, to be a vet and work with horses?

MCGEE: Well I guess probably,--in high school, and perhaps at junior--We had a family physician who insisted that I go to medical school, and I had a family veterinarian that thought veterinary school would be a 00:09:00good shot for me.

SMITH: Did you like working with horses?

MCGEE: Yes. I was always around horses, and then having read and heard more about the Thoroughbred business on the whole, I finally decided that maybe that was probably the best route for me to go and I guess the way it worked out; it was (laughs) I.

SMITH: So what did you get, what was your degree in, in school?

MCGEE: DVM, veterinary medicine.

SMITH: Okay. Okay--. And what years were you in college?

MCGEE: Was,--Actually I started in the first year that there was a turnover in the veterinary curriculum about then, and the schools were changing from four year programs to five year programs, and this was 00:10:00the first year that Washington State of the turnover and they,--they accepted I think 150 students first year, and second year they cut that in half, and the third year, cut that in half.

SMITH: Oh my.

MCGEE: So I think there were about 32 or three of us left (laughs). But what they did was took the first--gave half of them a regular first year courses, and the other half they gave some odd courses that you had to take. Some of them didn't have much to do with veterinary medicine, but the courses that were necessary. And then the next year they switched them around. And the third year, what was left was on the regular veterinary medical program.

SMITH: Did you feel like it was a good education?

MCGEE: Well thought so then, but it sure didn't compare with what they get now. At that time there were just nine veterinary schools in the country. I think there's what, 36 now?

FALLON: I can't tell you, though, but it's got to be--

MCGEE: I believe they got 36--around, but ah--

SMITH: Why did you end up-- ----------(??)

MCGEE: Washington was the closest one to me; there was a school in Colorado that was the closest I guess. California hadn't started yet. A lot of the students in my class were from California actually, and it was kind of a tough row. I wasn't a particularly bright candidate 00:12:00but I made it through all the cuts (laughs), and, it worked out. Five years; it sounded like a long time to start, looking back it doesn't seem like it was any time at all.

SMITH: Where did you meet your wife?

MCGEE: In high school.

SMITH: Oh, okay, okay.

MCGEE: When I moved into Hamilton, I went, the kids to switch schools from Corvallis to Hamilton in my junior year, and that was in 30,--34.

FALLON: Kim, I think he was first in his class.

SMITH: Oh, at Washington State or in high school?

FALLON: Washington State, I think.

SMITH: Oh okay.

FALLON: Alice told me that.

SMITH: (laughs) Well a--

MCGEE: I don't know about that.

SMITH: Well, wives know these things.

MCGEE: It worked out. But anyway, we met on New, New Year's Eve in 34, I guess. And been going at it every since.

SMITH: So did you,--but you didn't get married till you got out of college?

MCGEE: No, went through two years of high school, five years of college, and then got married.

SMITH: My, that's a long courtship.

MCGEE: And of course, she went to different college than I did--so.

SMITH: Oh, okay. What's your wife's name?

MCGEE: Alice.

SMITH: What was her maiden name?

MCGEE: Hork, H, O, R, K.

SMITH: Where did she go to school?

MCGEE: Went to University of Montana. And--went into nurses' training for--she . went into nurses' training first. Then switched into college--(laughs)

SMITH: Okay.

MCGEE: But it was--That was really the background of how I happened to be in Montana. Dr. Charlie and Dr. Ed both really just loved Montana. They enjoyed going out there and Dr. Charlie was born there and he used to say that Bill and I were born 6 miles and 16 years apart (laughs). I get up from where I was born and I can almost see the house he was born in, but 6 miles away, but with a little imagination you could--

SMITH: So, when did you first meet Charlie?

MCGEE: In Hamilton, just in an arranged meeting.

SMITH: Was this is after you'd gone to school or before?

MCGEE: No, this was two years, well actually it was three years because 00:15:00it was just before--my senior year, between my junior and senior year.

SMITH: Of college?

MCGEE: Uh-huh.

SMITH: Okay.

FALLON: It's breathtaking country if you've ever been there.

SMITH: Never been there, but always wanted to go to Montana, people have always said it's just--

FALLON: Western Montana's just breathtaking

SMITH: Oh, did you to go out there?

FALLON: ----------(??) Hmm.

SMITH: Okay. Isn't that where your grandparents----

FALLON: --met--

SMITH: --met, okay that's right. So--

MCGEE: --my grandmother went to Spokane Falls, Washington in a covered wagon.

SMITH: Really? Did you have family in Washington when you went there?

MCGEE: Yes,--We went to Vancouver,--for just two or three years,--and,- 00:16:00-it was--during the war, and dad was working in a shipyard building liberty ships or something, about that time. As soon as the war was over they went back to Montana.

SMITH: Okay, were you with him or did--at that time you were in sch--oh, okay, you were still--allright--

MCGEE: --let's see,--I'd just really started to school when--but then we moved back to Corvallis, and I think I about in the eighth grade then. But, for all practical purposes my education was in Hamilton,-- Washington State, and Lexington, Kentucky.

SMITH: So, you said earlier as soon as you graduated you passed your 00:17:00boards--

MCGEE: --yeah--

SMITH: --got married, moved to Lexington.

MCGEE: Well, got married, actually,--my mother and dad brought Alice over to Pullman, Washington for graduation, and then while I was there for graduation, then I took state board, then got married (laughs) and then went, actually went by our home for a few days and on down to California,--over here.

SMITH: So you didn't practice out west before you came here?

MCGEE: No I didn't. I thought at the time we might be going back there, and California was--reputedly the toughest state board to get into, 00:18:00because, apparently they had so many people wanting to take the state board, the veterinarians did their best to kind of limit the span. Florida was the same way because people that were retiring, or could afford moved to California or Florida, and ah,--but it was a three day examination, and it really went--. down the full course.

SMITH: So you got certified in California?

MCGEE: Kept my license there for 50 years (laughs) and then I said well- -. after I retired I didn't think I would need them anymore.

SMITH: Tell me about moving to Kentucky,--about your moving to Kentucky?

MCGEE: Wasn't much of a move, there wasn't much to move, except (laughs) clothes. And course looking back anybody would think you were crazy- -no different than kids do nowadays. I,--moved down here with my wife, practically broke, really didn't--internships, you know, are not very remunerative. And ah, but we made it, you know.

SMITH: So you moved to Lexington? Where was the practice located then?

MCGEE: It was down on Short Street, the office was. 145 East Short. And it had been there for, on Short Street--for gosh, I don't how many years, they were across there were the laundry was, they had the 00:20:00livery--

FALLON: Yeah, that old building up the street, ah, red brick building had the E.T. Hagyard and Sons, I believe they've torn it down now.

MCGEE: Yeah, before that I think they were down on the other side of the--

FALLON: Esplanade.

MCGEE: Esplanade. But that, right there until we moved--out on New Circle Road.

SMITH: Okay, when did that happen?

FALLON: 55.

SMITH: 1955? Okay.

FALLON: Tell,--tell her what you were paid when you came here.

MCGEE: Well I was going to bring that, I was going through some things the other day and I saw a letter that.

FALLON: --yeah this will shock you--

MCGEE: --that Dr. Charlie, after our meeting,--That was before my junior year I guess, we meet and talked about that, and then after 00:21:00my junior year or during my junior year I wrote to him, and told him that I was still gung ho to come, if it was all right with him, and I said that ah, I planned to get married, would there be any objection (laughs) to that. And I didn't hear, and didn't hear, and didn't hear, and I was just about, figured the deal was off, and then this letter came and he apologized for being late answering it, but he had had kind a rough times along then. And, anyway, he said same thing goes, he says if you're still--you have a mind to come on down for a year and, I don't know what I can pay you, depends on how much we can use you. But 00:22:00he said you can, we'll see that you have a house, a place to live, and then when I asked about the marriage he said that's up to you (laughs), if you want to get married bring her on down. So we went, nothing had been said about pay until we got there, and then there awhile it turned out to be $100 a month.

SMITH: $100 a month, oh my.

MCGEE: And ah,--that--. lasted for awhile till I kind of got my feet on the ground. When I first came, it was, just a matter of getting acquainted and, more than anything else. I'd ride with Dr. Ed, we had a, his car was an old Pontiac, but the trunk he had his drugs, he 00:23:00had two cases of, I don't know how much, there must've been 40 or 50 vials of different drugs around, chemicals sometimes (laughs). And I'd drive him to the, to the call and he'd, ah, had a little canvas stool he set out by the stall, and he sat down on that, and I'd take the temperature, take the pulse, and checked the membranes listen to the abdominal reverberations, and then he'd prescribe the treatment. And he'd say, "Now get you a bucket, and put, he'd usually put a quart to 2 quarts of oil in it, and then he'd, a little of this, a little of that, a little of this, and put the tube down and pump it into them. 00:24:00(laughs) And that was it.

SMITH: Now were you mostly just working with mares?

MCGEE: Well this is,--When I first got there,--in ah--. June--wasn't too much action right in June, July,--August. There was a sale in there between time, but that's, I--made many a trip with Dr. Ed just that way, and everybody had so much respect for him, now I mean he could have put a dynamite down 'em and nobody'd (laughs) ever object to it, 'cause, and that's, course what made the score for me to, if you know, they thought if he good enough for Dr. Ed he's good enough for us.

SMITH: Did you learn a lot from him?

MCGEE: Oh, yes. And then, when I wasn't with him I'd drive with Dr. 00:25:00Charlie, and pretty much the same thing except that, he, his approach was a little different. But it was just a matter of being with him, and a lot of things we would do together, working, vaccinating and things like that. And after about a year, and everybody got to know me, then, that was, I could do pretty much anything I needed to do, and didn't have to have somebody with me (laughs). But at that stage of the game everybody, these farms were managed, most of them, the manager, maybe his father and grandfather had managed the farm, and I just, a lot of them lived on a farm, grew up on the farm, worked on the 00:26:00farm, and they'd all been working with Hagyard and Hagyard for years and years and that was--top--notch.

SMITH: Were there any other equine vets--

MCGEE: Pardon?

SMITH: Were there other equine vets in Lexington at that time?

MCGEE: Well, there were Dr. Holmes and Dr. Proctor,--were doing some work, and they were about the only ones that were in Lexington that were doing--all equine work--and,--but then,--talking about that hundred dollars a month, after a while,--(exhale)--in my spare time, which was from daylight till about seven o'clock, or after hours, any work I did, 00:27:00I got a commission, a percentage of that, so you never saw anybody get more proficient at vaccinating hogs and,--immunizing steers and things at the stockyard, and even on farms. I did quite a little farm work, knew a lot of nice people in those years, and I'm sure that I've been on farms that,--most people in ----------(??), never seen (laughs).

SMITH: Can you remember any, any of these people?

MCGEE: Oh,--. just an example, one time this fellow came in the office and said he's, having some trouble with his hogs, and wanted to get them vaccinated--if they needed it. So I said, "All right, where do 00:28:00you live?" He said, "Well I'll tell you." Says, "You go down to Valley View, and I'll be waiting there for you." So I went down there and (laughs)--got on a boat, kind of a barge of a boat, and had a motor on it, and we went down the river about four or five miles and came to this farm, and the river was here, and his farm was here, and here was a,--creek banks, you know, a long vista, what do they call them, palisades down there?

SMITH: Uh-huh.

MCGEE: And that, I don't see how--that farm had to be underwater part of the year. But that's what I mean by farms that nobody had ever been to. Others all down in the--, along the river and places like that.

SMITH: Did you ever do any work, I guess they call it pro bono now, work for people that really couldn't pay much for it?

MCGEE: Oh yeah, a lot of them. Sometimes you'd get a--bunch of vegetables--. almost anything edible. That wasn't pay. That was just till they could pay (laughs).

SMITH: Okay.

MCGEE: And I'll say this, everybody paid, practically. Because of all the years we practiced before we moved out here I don't----I think you could--. we never lost anything. The only, only thing, once in a while some race tracker would pass through and forget about paying, but. And, as I said there was a lot of farmers that I still know. A 00:30:00lot of them are gone, but I made those acquaintances--. at that period of--. and it paid the bills. I even did a little dog work upstairs, on Short Street (laughs).

FALLON: I remember that.

SMITH: So, what was it, just the three of you then in 1940?

MCGEE: Well there was, Dr. Ed was there, and--Dr. Charlie, and Dr. Davidson, and myself.

SMITH: So was Davidson here before you came?

MCGEE: Yeah, he can couple years before I did, and when--there wasn't any change in the Hagyard and Hagyard name, but we didn't want to make any change as long as Dr. Ed was here, and it was after that that my year of internship--stretched into about five or six years, and--about 00:31:00that time I guess it was when Dr. Ed passed away.

FALLON: In 1950 I think he died.

MCGEE: And,--So then after that we change it to Hagyard, Davidson, McGee.

SMITH: During that time, say from 1940 to 1950, did anybody else come in to the practice, or was it just--?

MCGEE: No we had--, once in awhile somebody come--, course there was always a student or somebody riding for a while, but Dr. Bishop I think was--the last one that came and stayed any length of time. Course, Dr. Zent was working at the University when, and he'd ride with one of us, and finally he worked in, and who else? Do you remember any Ed?

FALLON: Well ah,--Leonard Greathouse would work part of the time.

MCGEE: Yeah, he'd worked for awhile and then he would go back to the farm.

FALLON: I guess Charlie Easton worked little, a little bit then.

MCGEE: Yeah. But ah, nothing, no change in the top end.

SMITH: What was the demand for your services, was it pretty steady or did it start to increase in that time?

MCGEE: Oh,--. well--. I'm going to say this. I think in 1940 when I came down, you might check the figures on this, but as I recall there were about 6000 Thoroughbred foals registered that year. In 19--82 or 00:33:0083--there were about 60,000.

SMITH: Oh my.

MCGEE: And that's when the--

FALLON: --bottom dropped out of it--

MCGEE: --bottom dropped out of it and--down now, I don't what it is right now, but it dropped off pretty sharply there when ah--

FALLON: --in the 40s.

SMITH: Okay.

FALLON: Ah, overproduction.

SMITH: In the 40s or 1980s?

FALLON: It dropped back down into the 40 thousands from the 60.

SMITH: Oh, okay.

MCGEE: And so--when I first came we were busy enough, and uh, it was a seven day a week job (laughs). We were on Short Street, and as long as Dr. Ed was there he was down at that office everyday, Sunday included, by around eight o'clock, and everybody else was expected to be there 00:34:00to. Of course, there was odd jobs and the things we did, but almost every Sunday we wound up with all of us sitting there talking in the front office.

FALLON: Uh-huh.

MCGEE: Then at five o'clock, was kind of a social hour, and ah--

SMITH: And at, Dr. Fallon was mentioning that. The five o'clock club, is that what you call it?

MCGEE: And, had a lot of members--come and went, usually the--

SMITH: People were just gathered?

MCGEE: The cop on the beat, trainers, and managers, and workers.

SMITH: Well, bet that could be interesting, an interesting group of people.

FALLON: They were well-behaved; they'd have a drink or two and go home.

MCGEE: Yeah well, they were drinking pure ethyl alcohol.

SMITH: Oh, okay. ----------(??) It's a pretty strong drink for sure.

MCGEE: It--, course we made--use the alcohol and making different medical preparations.

SMITH: Oh, so you mixed up a batch of something pretty strong, huh?

MCGEE: The thing that kind of put a damper on that was the tax people come in. At that time you could buy that alcohol, I think about four dollars a gallon. It was pure grain alcohol. And next the tax man comes in and he says, "Well, I want you to keep track of this now, and do whatever you wanted with it, [phone rings],--but the tax is going to be $38 a gallon on it."

SMITH: Oh my. That's quite a bit.

MCGEE: That kind of shut down the volume of the drinking. (both laugh)

SMITH: And people'd still come together there, though?

MCGEE: Oh yeah ,--but it kind of dwindled off after awhile and then when we moved off of Short Street why, it didn't continue quite--and of course things were changing, different people, and a, but that was the old days.

SMITH: So what was the--I'm going to fix this microphone stand. It just doesn't want to work right. What, how, what was the facility like? Did you have like a surgical wing? I mean it was--

MCGEE: While we were on Short Street there was just the office. It wasn't, it was,--just a storefront with a driveway, we could get in and park about four or five cars back there. Then there was a space in the back for mixing medication. Used to have several preparations 00:37:00that were mixed and bottled and, and stocked there, to use and to ship; shipped it all over the country. But there was no surgical facility, and ah----Mainly, and this is probably one of the things that, the major developments that happened, soon, not too soon, but after I came, we'll say, was the development of inhalation anesthesia, halothane; used a regular human type anesthesia thing. And because any other anesthetic we had was chlorohydrate--was about the only thing. Then you could put them to sleep and do your surgery and everything, but 00:38:00when they started to come to, they were just all over the place, and they'd just tear up everything that you'd--

SMITH: --that you'd done--

MCGEE: --done, so it was just prohibitive to even try to do major surgery. But as soon as the anesthesia, the inhalation thing came, put a mask on them and they'd go out, and get them, get through, and when they came out of that they'd come out slowly and rollup on their belly and then finally they'd get up without a lot of struggle and straining around. So that's when, we established a surgery out at a Dr. Davidson's farm. He had a little small farm out behind Keeneland, and--. it was pretty well,--supplied instruments--whatever we had to 00:39:00do with at that time, and the history of the things that was there, and he did a lot of ankle work, or taking bone chips out, one thing or another, and ah----Any other surgery that was possible, why it started then. Course now, down here, you're gonna have six surgeries--

FALLON: Oh yeah.

MCGEE: God all mighty, I never saw. They got every kind of a--

SMITH: What are the things that you could perform surgery on say in the late 40s, that you couldn't do then that you can do now? How much is that changed?

MCGEE: All the intestinal operations--

SMITH: You couldn't do anything like that?

FALLON: We started doing ruptured bladders on foals.

MCGEE: Well, as far as I know, Dr. Charlie and I did probably the first ruptured bladder in a foal, which was a little different than adult horses, we'd been having ruptured bladders for years and everybody could diagno--well you got a ruptured bladder, can't do anything about it. So Dr. Charlie and I were together one day, and was out at John Morris farm, and he brought this foal out, obvious he had a ruptured bladder. John said "Well what you going to do about it?" And I we said, started to say, well there's nothing you can do about it, he's going to die. And Charlie says let's operate on that sucker. So we took a stall door and put it on a couple of sawhorses and used 00:41:00Nembutal on him, it was a intravenous anesthetic, but it, it was a good anesthetic and they didn't come out wild like.

CHRISSY: Knock, knock.

MCGEE: Come right in.

CHRISSY: There's ah,--going to be each one of those books there. There is two for you.

FALLON: I asked them, thanks Chrissy.

CHRISSY: You're welcome

FALLON: I thought you might be interested in that. Jack Bryan's did that three or four years ago.

MCGEE: Oh, oh yeah, uh-huh.

SMITH: Oh, that's great.

MCGEE: That's great.

SMITH: Thank you.

MCGEE: So we operated on the foal, and uh, we get through and we were pretty pleased with our job. We got done, he came out of it, and got up and everything, but he had gone too long and he'd got uremic poisoning, and a lot of toxin absorption and died. But from that time on we operated on every ruptured bladder and it worked out very nicely 00:42:00with that type of anesthetic, and the fact that the little foal, you, you weren't dealing with a whole big hundred pounds of intestine.

FALLON: I think you and Gary Lavin may have done the first successful cesarean,

SMITH: --oh, really?--

FALLON: --down by Georgetown.

MCGEE: Yeah.

FALLON: That was about 1963 or something

SMITH: Tell me about that.

MCGEE: It was--I think we saved the foal but didn't save the mare, did we?

FALLON: Saved the mare but not the foal.

MCGEE: One end or the other right?

FALLON: The foal was a, schistosomas retoflexus and there was no way- -that was the only way to get it out, and so,--. they failed to seal down the middle of,--there. they look like a spider.

SMITH: Okay. But you were able to save the mare, isn't that what you said?

FALLON: I saw her early in the morning, I spoke to Dr. McGee and asked him, I think it was in February, if he could do this and he said yeah, meet him in later in the afternoon, because it's starting to get a little bit busy, and I think Gary was riding with him, Gary Lavin.

MCGEE: Might've been.

FALLON: and I we met down there, in the afternoon and, all we had was chlorolhydrate for her, and did it in a stall and got the foal out, and she survived, and got back in foal which makes it a success.

SMITH: Okay.

FALLON: The complete success would be to save everything, but this thing was dead to start with, the foal. Anyway, that was encouraging.

SMITH: It sounds like you did a lot of things by a,., by necessity. Is 00:44:00that how you, you learned?

MCGEE: Absolutely.--. Oh, some things.--Different deformities. One thing or another you could take care of but--

SMITH: What were the ah,--In the 1940s and probably into the early 50s, what were the most serious health concerns that you had to deal with?

MCGEE: (exhales) I always felt,--and when I came, and it was customary. Parasites were a problem, no question about that, and there hadn't been a whole lot of real good research done on it, and the custom was to not worm the foals until they were weaned. Worm the broodmares, 00:45:00and stallions and everything else. We had two, two products, had carbon disulfide to take care of the bots and carbon tetrachloride was supposed to take care of the strongyles. And the program usually, when somebody had enough trouble they got scared, and then get on the program, and worm regularly, and that was done with a stomach tube, just put the stuff.., and it was irritating, and it got most of the strongyles, the blood worms that would cause aneurysms and actually a lot of damage and lose some things. But there was an amazing number of foals that got, were damaged severely and died before they were 00:46:00weanlings, to get the worms. And, I think Arley Todd, about time Arley came along, he was not a veterinarian, but he was an entomologist or something.., a parasitologist, and he, by the harvest instigated a program where we'd start worming the foals, and about six weeks later or so, and keep that up.--And I think that one procedure probably saved more lives in horses, both foals and adult horses, than any other thing we did for, for them. That's one of the things; there are three 00:47:00things that I always felt that was really kind of a road mark. Course one was the advent of biological penicillin, first the sulfonamides, sulfonamide came out the year, my senior year in college. It was the first sulfonamide, sulfathiazine. And then, of course right after,--I can't tell you about what it was, anyway in 4 or 5 years penicillin came out.--When it came out, veterinarians couldn't get it, it was strictly for human use, and I recall one instance that--.I had this a weanling 00:48:00come up--and uh, who was secretary of treasury George Humphrey?

FALLON: In the 1950s? Yeah.

MCGEE: He had a farm right there on Ironworks Pike. Anyway, he had good mares, great foals, and this happened to be one of the top ones that he had, and Warren Gabby was managing out there, and he called and I went out, turns out he's a wobbler. And Warren said, "Gee doc I can't call the man can tell him about this. He said, "Would you mind calling him?" And I said that I'd call him. I said, "Mr. Humphrey, I'm sure 00:49:00sorry to have to be the one to bring you this news but,", I forget what the breeding on it was now, but it was his favorite weanling, I said "The foal's gonna, he's a wobbler and a..

SMITH: Which means?

MCGEE: Well, it's a, as far as I know a destruction of nerve cells on the neck and they get paralyzed, gradual paralysis, and uh, there's, hadn't been any treatment for it. And he says, "Well is there anything you can do?" And I said, "There is nothing that I know of that will make a bit of difference in the long run. It may take a while to happen, but he's going to be a fatality." And he says, "Well do you think penicillin would help him?" I said, "Well gee, we can't give any 00:50:00penicillin." He said, "If I get the penicillin, will you give it to him?" I said, "Well I don't think it'll help him a bit but I'll sure give it to him." And I don't know where he got it, but he got a whole box of penicillin, and it came--and it says, the directions on it was 10,000 units every four hours.

SMITH: Oh my.

MCGEE: So we got that foal 10,000 units every four hours till we run out, which is, I don't know how long it took to run out, but never did any good at all. That's a, that's what we knew about penicillin-- 10,000 units are not enough penicillin for a mouse I don't think.

SMITH: Ah, definitely not for a horse.

MCGEE: But, that period, where the sulfonamides, and the penicillins 00:51:00and all those things became available that we never had before. Before sulfonaniamide came along we used arsenicals. Arsenic was, in preparations, for treating infections, give it intravenously.

SMITH: That's pretty powerful stuff.

MCGEE: 606, was the preparation.

FALLON: Neoarsphenamine was, came in vials.

MCGEE: And--it worked to a certain extent but it wasn't the answer to all our problems. As those things kind of worked their way into the veterinary available list, why it helped that and the parasites, what else was it that I thought was--three of the most.

FALLON: Virus abortion, I think it was ----------(??) was a terrible scourge.

SMITH: That's what Henry White was talking about, he called it contagious abortion and he thought it became known as virus.

FALLON: Well contagious abortion was actually a salmonella,

SMITH: Oh, okay.

FALLON: but virus abortion was highly contagious, it's a virus spread by the respiratory route, and it would wipe out a whole barn full of foals, and it wouldn't kill the mares but ah--. Now they have very efficient vaccines.

SMITH: Is that something you worked on with Jack Bryans? Is that how--?

FALLON: Indeed.

SMITH: Okay.

MCGEE: There were a couple of other things, you mention the salmonella. We vaccinated for salmonella religiously after I came down for several years, and then it finally turns up nobody'd seen any salmonella for--

FALLON: --disappeared--

MCGEE: --five or 10 years so we quit vaccinating, I don't know that anybody's ever seen a case of salmonella abortion or not.

FALLON: it's still present, I think in Mongolia and ah--in Italy, I think.

SMITH: Oh really?

FALLON: Yeah.

SMITH: Huh.

MCGEE: The, another--. Thing--that kind of dramatic in a way, that we were losing foals--. kind of, similar to the blue baby situation in humans. Where there was a--factor--in the mare's blood that caused anemia in the foal. After the foal and nursing got the antibodies, it would just knock his red blood cell count out. Course, not knowing 00:54:00any different, our first line of defense was to give him a blood transfusion, and the handiest place to get the blood was from the mare. We transferred the blood from the mare to the foal--we didn't kill them all, I mean some of them got better and I don't know what they just old enough to run, gotten over it. Because after a while the, the thing seems to be depleted from the colostrum and the mares blood too. But we lost a lot of foals, and finally Dr. Doll Ithink was--probably more responsible, he kept digging around for different things, and I think Jack was, Jack was probably in on a lot of that.

FALLON: Dr. Bruner, might, may have still been here, I'm not sure.

SMITH: Who's that?

FALLON: Name was Bruner, he was--

MCGEE: --oh Dr. Bruner, yeah. ----------(??) I think he'd probably been gone though, because this came along a little after. But anyway--they figured it out. It was--incompatibility, and the trick was to mother the foal, so he couldn't nurse after he was born. Get the mare milked out. And for a while put the foal on a nurse mare or something. But in the development they found out after you'd milked the mare out for two or three or four days sometimes a little longer you got rid of the antibodies in the colostrum and then you could put the foal back on.

SMITH: Okay.

MCGEE: But if you could catch him before he nursed, and cut that supply off, then it was smooth sailing from then on. That was as another thing that popped up that, unbeknownst to anybody what it was, and finally, came into the solution and it was over. But we lost quite a few foals that way. I don't what the incidence and the number of mares percentage wise, the number of mares that did have that situation, but there were enough of them that considering the whole population--

FALLON: It was pretty dramatic;--pretty dramatic when you saw one. They were jaundiced, and their--the white part of their eyes was, ah yellow.

MCGEE: Kind of embarrassing to feel like you'd probably--been a party to 00:57:00the death of quite a few foals by giving them blood transfusions.

SMITH: Trying to do the right thing, yeah. Um, well, Dr. Fallon and I talked about this when I was interviewing him, but what was your workday like? You said it was seven days a week, what did you--

MCGEE: That wasn't work that was just family discussion. It ah--early on it was busy from--[outside voices]

MCGEE: Oh in the fall we'd start getting, have to get the mares and be sure they were ready to breed and get a breeding certificate. And the routine things like the worming and vaccinations pick up. And then, really the busy time started when foaling season started, which 00:58:00officially, didn't want to start it before the first of January--

SMITH: --right--

MCGEE: --sometimes it got started accidentally. But then foaling season was from then on till up to the end of breeding season which used to be when I first started was in April, latter part of April, now they go through June, and April and May into June. But a--

SMITH: --now did you try to be present at, at foalings, were you there when the, when they were born?

MCGEE: Oh, not all the time, just when there was trouble--and the foaling men--was worried about something being wrong or something, he'd call. Some mares and some owners insisted that you be there at the time--and then the rest, after the breeding season was over it kind 00:59:00of slacked off and just routine work that could be scheduled and, but during that part of year, the foaling, it pretty much was--

SMITH: Did you work for specific farms?

MCGEE: Oh yeah.

SMITH: Personally did you have specific farms that were yours?

MCGEE: All the farms were practice farms, but we kind of gravitated down to, each one of us took care of routinely, certain farms. But ah--

SMITH: And then you just collaborated if there was a particular problem or?

MCGEE: If there was trouble, uh-huh. And if there--if one of my farms was--needed somebody and I was clear to the other end of the country, 01:00:00why whoever was the closest could catch it, it was kind of a--teamwork proposition.

SMITH: So you and Dr. Hagyard, Charlie, were--the reproductive end of the business basically? Okay.

MCGEE: Yeah. Yeah. And of course, along with that went practically all the routine care of the farm work, the mares and foals up until they were weaned. And I went over to the yearling barn and Dr. Davidson took (laughs), took them from there. And ah--.but gosh, I don't know how many------I don't--

SMITH: --you have any idea how many--

MCGEE: --I was trying to think of the number of mares that were 01:01:00supposed to be here during foaling and breeding season, and it's in the thousands, but--. and--. summer--get it organized, why we got it done anyway. And of course the buildup started coming, and the number from 6000 to 60,000 foals.

SMITH: So when did that really gets, begin to be noticeable?

MCGEE: Well I would say--when I first came Fasig Tipton ran the yearling sales out on the Paris Pike there, and I don't know, they never sold over--two or 300 yearlings, did they?

FALLON: I remember his facility, but not, I don't remember the sales going on there.

MCGEE: And then came the war and it got so--they'd hold a sale at Saratoga,--Most everybody shipped to Saratoga for awhile, then the war came and they shifted it down here. And then after a few years of--Throughbred breeders decided--might as well take it ourselves, sell our own foals. So that's when the Throughbred breeders started out at Keeneland, and eventually Keeneland took over the management and everything. But--. there--I would say right after the Second World War is when it really started moving up. Prior to that--. one of the things when I first came, and I think everybody around here 01:03:00would agree, one of the biggest advantages we had was the University of Kentucky out there--and for lab work that we'd get done and the postpartum work. And then I spent a lot of hours out there when I first came in just postpartum work, and they would take care of anything we had, and it was so--such a great help, because if you were in practice out in the weeds somewhere or away from the horse centers, you were just pretty much on your own. But, with that, and then I think Kentucky was probably the only research facility of any magnitude in the country on, for equine research. They were spending 01:04:00more on chicken research than they were on horse research in the 40s. Gradually Grayson came up, was born, and quarter horse people got started, and put some money in and finally the research situation picked up, and then the population started about the same time, and gradually the other schools started some smaller research projects and one thing another, and it begin to percolate, you know. So that by the 50s and 60s it wasn't a big increase in population all at once, 01:05:00but it did start, and just worked it's way up to that. And of course the prices started going up, and that's what drew the--the uh, breeders in, well golly that's easy money, buy a couple of mares and breed them. And there was--for a while there was quite a few mares owned by just farmers around you know, they'd have a couple mares and breed them to cheap horses, and got cheap prices for them when they sold them--

SMITH: --yeah--

MCGEE: --and go out of business. But--during that--upgrade in numbers and then prices of yearlings and prices of mares and prices of stud fees, it was, it was a gradual--. But I could--scared me, I had--my 01:06:00son and I--had a few mares and we bred and boarded a few and, and we got, I told Bill, I said "Buddy we better cash in and get out of here before the thing drops." And we sold out--I think in 83.

FALLON: I've forgotten, I've forgotten when--

MCGEE: I think 84 was when it hit the bottom, 83 or 84, that's when the thing, the bottom dropped out of it.

SMITH: So you got out ahead of it?

MCGEE: Just got out ahead of it.

SMITH: So how many horses did you have? How many horses did you have at that time?

MCGEE: Oh, I think we sold about--six or eight of our own.

SMITH: And when did you start buying horses? How long had you been--did you have, your horses?

MCGEE: Oh first ones that I bought, a couple mares from Calumet, bred 01:07:00them--I bought them in my son's name, and he just--so he took care of em , he was always interested in horses and the farming, and he got started early. He wasn't too much a student, but he made enough off those two mares to get through college. Then about that time he had a trip to Vietnam, and a year and a half there and he finally got back and got started again. We'd picked up a mare now and then, and actually I bought a farm across the road up here, more for him than anything else, because of his interest. So he pretty much, I turned it 01:08:00over to him pretty much. We had boarders, people would find out I had a place, and they'd send their mares here to board and figured I'd take care of them.

SMITH: That's right, that's right.

MCGEE: So we had--69 I bought that place, 69--We were there about 30 years I guess. And sold it in moved to town (laughs).

SMITH: Oh. What did, did your son get out of business at that point?

MCGEE: Yeah.

SMITH: Okay. What's your son's name?

MCGEE: Bill.

SMITH: Okay. You only have one child?

MCGEE: No I--Mike, got another--Mike is down in New Mexico.

SMITH: Oh, okay. Ah--. I don't want to keep you too long, but I have 01:09:00still lots of questions, and I, if I don't ask this question--

MCGEE: Well go ahead I'm--

SMITH: You okay? Okay.

MCGEE: Your time is my time.

SMITH: Ah--I have to ask you about, of course, Man O'War and how did you get to be the vet for Man O'War?

MCGEE: Well, I just fell in behind the doc, Dr. Charlie. He had always taken care of them since he really came from racing. And Dr. Ed had been before Dr. Charlie, and then Dr. Charlie. Dr. Charlie worked pretty hard for a number of years and--he almost worked too hard then, so he wanted to let up, and I guess I came in about the time that he really needed help. And after we got oriented and everything and, why 01:10:00I took over for him practically, all of it, all of his end of it. And uh, but I guess it was about five years before he died that I started doing the work out there. And ah--

SMITH: So you were working for the farm; I mean all the horses on the farm?

MCGEE: Oh yeah. And of course War Admiral was there then, and--another one of the War----. well anyway, it wasn't any particular job, the old horse--. the story got around he had colic all of time. Well he didn't have colic all the time. He'd get a little uneasy at times, but 01:11:00he--his old heart was gradually giving out, and once in awhile he'd, he have--I'm sure he had some heart pains, chest pains. And of course, treated, he'd get all right. But he--got to, in the breeding shed; he'd kind of faint, pass out breeding a mare. And a time or two he about passed out on my shoulders. And I said we're going to have to do away with this somebody's going to get hurt sure enough. Well Mr. Riddle says, well just retire him, let's just let him have his old age in peace and quiet. So we did, but he obviously--he was kind of that way 01:12:00for a number of years, and in fact, I had, had his casket made, and put in the breeding shed there, a year or so before he would passed away.

SMITH: So what finally--

MCKEE: I told Mr. Riddle, I said sometime this old horse is going to leave us, and I said what do you want to do about it. He said well, do what you can to make him comfortable, but don't drag it out on him, that's all. Just, time comes let him go. So that's when I had the box made, and the old horses they--story got around he was euthanized and he was put to sleep. He wasn't put to sleep. I was out there doing something else one day, and the groom came in and said the old horse is 01:13:00not feeling so good. He's down. And I went up and, he was, he wasn't thrashing around, but he was breathing kind of intermittently, and I checked his heart and he was slumped down, and--a long ways. I said well, he's--this, time has, the time has come. But I didn't euthanize him, it was, I guess maybe a half hour after I got there that he just passed away.

SMITH: Uh-huh, peaceful.

MCGEE: So, he got some road contractor with a--high lift derrick, crane. Got him out of that stall, and in that--coffin--casket, oak casket, all lined with the colors and everything. And that was on a Saturday 01:14:00morning, a football game going on that afternoon, and they announced it at the football game and everybody stood and had a moment of silence for the old horse.

SMITH: Huh. A UK game?

MCGEE: Uh-huh.

SMITH: I've read about the funeral, it was a pretty big deal. Did you go?

MCGEE: Oh yeah, I was there.

FALLON: He was part of it.

SMITH: You were--oh you spoke at the funeral?

FALLON: There's a record of--

SMITH: --okay--

FALLON: --a recording.

SMITH: Oh there is. Where is it?

MCGEE: I used to have a record, but I don't what happened to it.

FALLON: Ahh, we had one, but, I think we still have one around the house somewhere. It's a 78, 78 rpm.

SMITH: Oh, okay. I'll have to get that copied. I bet you it's somewhere though.

MCGEE: But they were lined up clear down to the Russell Cave Pike there with cars (laughs).

SMITH: So what did you have to say about him?

MCGEE: Oh, not--about what I said everybody know he was,--reputation. I 01:15:00says as far as I was concerned, he had lived a long, pleasant life.

FALLON: He was 30 years old wasn't he?

MCGEE: He was--a month younger than I am. (Smith laughs)

SMITH: Did you know Tom Harbut is a, 'er, not Tom, is it, that's not right?

FALLON: What, Will, his son?

MCGEE: Will.

SMITH: Will Harbut Tom's his son, okay. Did you know the groom?

MCGEE: Uh-hum. Oh yeah.

FALLON: there was old Will, and then Tom, and now there's another Will I think, and that what Tom's--

SMITH: Ah--There's two others, I mean it's. Was he is dedicated to the horse as all the stories say?

MCGEE: Yeah.

SMITH: Or do you remember that? Okay.

MCGEE: Yeah, he a--he wasn't in his older age, didn't pick him out to be 01:16:00a--what he was.

SMITH: Yeah.

MCGEE: I could never get a picture--of him at racing age, 3 years old. And I was out to Keeneland library one day and I mentioned to one of the girls, I'd like to have a picture, I've got pictures of him older after I was introduced to him. But, of course, by then he was swayback and kind of, didn't look--and she dug one up somewhere. It was when he was a three-year old. He looked like a different horse then.

SMITH: I can imagine.

FALLON: Ercel Ellis told me, well old Mr. Ellis, that he and Al Kane grew up on that--farm. Said that he, ah, worked some fractions in 19 01:17:00and change. Well that was just, incredible, especially, that I really, now that's, if you notice the times at the races, the fast fractions are about 22 seconds. But a, to be going under 20 is uh, that's, that's absolutely brilliant.

SMITH: Yeah.

MCGEE: I don't know what,--happened to him, he never started in the Derby.

SMITH: I read that, that his owner, his owner didn't--

MCGEE: If he had started it, he'd have won it.

SMITH: Yeah.

MCGEE: I don't, I never did know exactly what the problem was that he didn't get to go.

SMITH: Yeah, I think his owner just decided. I can't remember the reason, but he just didn't want him to run in the Derby.

FALLON: I talked to him about, didn't want to move him to Kentucky or--

SMITH: Yeah, yeah, that he didn't race, he never raced in Kentucky.

FALLON: I think that's right

SMITH: I was reading about that a little bit about that last night.

MCGEE: Old man was pretty eccentric sort of a guy. I don't think Man O'War really had a good chance as far as broodmares, good broodmares, Mr. Riddle would breed to his mare, then he'd go out and pay $250 for a mare and take it and breed it to Man O'War, you know. And if he had friends he'd let his friends breed, and--no he didn't pay any attention to the pedigrees at all, it was just his horse and he'd breed it with whoever he wanted to. But even then he got some pretty good horses. I bred to him.

SMITH: Oh really? (McGee laughs)

MCGEE: Yeah, he said you get--mare and breed to him. I did. She was barren. (Smith and McGee laugh)

FALLON: Ercel Ellis liked him that is the one who's alive today.

SMITH: Yeah.

FALLON: He might be a source of some of that, history of that animal. If he did it would all be probably kind of hearsay from his dad.

SMITH: Yeah.

FALLON: But ah, that's fun.

SMITH: Oh yeah.

FALLON: A lot of stuff's hearsay.

SMITH: Of course. A lot of history is hearsay. Well one thing you mentioned in talking about Man O'War and the breeding and um, again I don't come from the industry so I'm learning a lot of things as we go along, but are you all present, are the vets present when they breed?

MCGEE: Well not all of them, but, it ah--Oh there's a situation that got started that everybody thought they could improve their chances of getting a mare in foal if they had her impregnated. And by that, a veterinarian was there and would catch the stallion, as--came off and see what semen he could collect and inject it into the uterus, as 01:20:00a, kind of a booster shot. I was never too happy with that situation myself. I thought probably it did as much harm as it did good. (laughs)

SMITH: But did that, that increased your participation then?

MCGEE: It, well yeah, there was somebody there. But it--not necessarily there's a horse--. in most breeding sheds was perfectly capable of taking care of everything that needed to be done. But ah--well as they got--more promotional--started advertising different facilities and things they had on the farm, breeding shed, Spendthrift. Les Combs was great for that, have their picture taken, and all these--and had 01:21:00microscopes set up and everything.

SMITH: Now didn't they use to,--breeding sheds sometimes just be out of doors? It didn't have actual barns that they used?

FALLON: Best place to have it.

MCGEE: Hal Price Headley, (laughs) was outside rain or shine.

FALLON: It leaked a little bit though.

SMITH: (laughs) Okay. I think that Henry White was telling me that, that Mr. Headley's was outside, and somebody else.

FALLON: ----------(??)--He's talking about.

SMITH: Yeah, but then somebody else he mentioned, I can't remember their name.

FALLON: I think, that outset, the White's breeding operation was outdoors.

SMITH: Oh, okay, okay, when his dad, yeah okay.

FALLON: That's probably not the only one, they were two prominent ones.

SMITH: Okay. Umm, you've talked about how the numbers have increased steadily enough to--they were tremendous I guess in the late 70s into 01:22:00the 80s, right? Are you--we talked--Dr. Fallon when we ah, did the interview that ah, then they started using lights and then you began palpating the mares and how--

FALLON: We started palpating before.

SMITH: Okay before the--you started using lights?

FALLON: Yeah.

SMITH: Okay and how all those things impacted breeding. Did that--?

MCGEE: Well--there's a--you might--well I'm pretty sure that, this a--we were going along breeding the mares, and palpating them for breeding each time, you know. But along in those years somewhere, Les Combs got a--at a cocktail party sometime, that Fred Day in England, Newmarket, 01:23:00was palpating his mares for breeding and doing more efficient job of getting them in foal. Now he says, you go over there and see what's going on about that, all right? I flapped on over, talked to Fred, we went fishing, and one thing another, and I told him that we were interested in his work with palpating the mares. And he says, "Well I'll tell you one thing, if you haven't started, don't start." He says, "you'll never have a peaceable day in your life (laughs)." And he was kind of kidding I think, but anyway, as far as I know he was the one that started that, and I came back and started doing it and then we all 01:24:00got going.

FALLON: Dr. McGee, had started it--I had gotten out of school just shortly after that, and I learned how to do it.

SMITH: Okay.

MCGEE: And it's kinda got a little more accurate as we went along, but that's how it started and ah, it's become almost a necessity now, and you just got to do it. In fact, in my time on these stallion's 40, 45 mares was as much as you want to breed them.

SMITH: A year?

MCGEE: A young horse coming off the racetrack or something 35 or 40 would be more--God now they're breeding 150 to them.

SMITH: Now how hard is that on a horse?

MCGEE: Well, it hadn't killed anybody yet, I guess but.

SMITH: I mean, I know and I was reading a--when I first got started on this project I read, read Wild Ride and all the stories about the over 01:25:00breeding to Alydar, or whether it was over breeding or not. Um, is that still pretty common practice to--to go this.

MCGEE: The number of mares? Yeah, as far as I know.

FALLON: Now nowadays it's a--well they just thought it was criminal to breed more than--if they bred more than 50 mares to a stallion--

MCGEE: Kind of cheating (laughs). I--well I--it's purely a problem of economics, greed you know; get all you can get while you can get it. I just felt like that you were going to lose a lot of bloodlines, valuable bloodlines, and have the same affect eventually that-- artificial insemination had with the quarter horses. They just bred 01:26:00themselves right out of business. They got, got so many horses that the horses weren't worth anything anymore. And course you get a few good ones, and be a lot bad ones, and those bad ones; there's not much market for bad horses anymore.

SMITH: No, there's not, there's not. Okay I'm going to change subjects just a little bit here and that's looking at the practice. Now you came here in the 1940's, there were only like--

MCGEE: --40.

SMITH: Just a small number of vets in the area let alone in the business, and now you have 60 vets. That's what I read online. Is that right? Here at Hagyard?

FALLON: 60 plus. We haven't counted them today.

SMITH: (laughs) 60 plus ----------(??) now how did go from that to this? 01:27:00Are you involved in this?

MCGEE: Well, I had very little to do with that.

SMITH: Oh come on.

MCGEE: I kind of cranked it up, but--

SMITH: And what was the size of the business when you retired?

MCGEE: Oh, what it--it was about maybe a dozen of us altogether.

FALLON: I think, yeah, it might've been up to 20, I don't know, trying to think of the numbers we used to use. It was probably 15 anyway.

MCGEE: But as the younger guys started coming in that's where the energy came in--and we were fortunate to have the young people that we got, that just took hold and went on.

SMITH: Now I'm sure you all trained a lot of young people, you had 01:28:00interns, all the time?

MCGEE: Oh yeah, that's kind of one of the more satisfactory--back views that you have, that all the youngsters have ridden with you for,--from a few weeks, to a few months, to a couple years, all over the world. They've gone, gone on and are very successful in their own right now. I--it's too bad we didn't keep better track of them.

FALLON: Oh yeah.

MCGEE: Because, God we had people here from the moon I think.

SMITH: (laughs) Did they come from all over the world?

FALLON: It's, it's a small world.

SMITH: Equine?

FALLON: Equine veterinarian world, especially that part of the equine 01:29:00world. We all know each other, or we used to till it got to be so many. Australia, South Africa, England, Ireland were here, Australia and New Zealand.

SMITH: Okay, okay.

MCGEE: China and Japan, Russia, Poland, Africa, oh yeah--. And a-- but--it--When I started practice you had to be somewhere like here, or there was little action in California and, and Florida was just getting started. But a lot of those places are horse enthusiasts there but what they did was come here and buy the horses and take them back to 01:30:00California and race them, and when they were through they would just discard them and come back and buy some more, there wasn't a whole lot of breeding going on there. And the same way to a certain extent in Florida, and, but they got together a group and finally got a nucleus started down there and then they, they breed quite a few. And places- -Venezuela, Mexico; I used to go down there,--and each place--Venezuela Mexico, Brazil,--Chile, but--there they went so far that way, and then they decided they wanted to get into the breeding business too. And so 01:31:00I'd try to set them up and get them straight down the road, tell them what the hell to do, but their idea of a, being in the horse business was get a horse that could get around the track, and then shoot him full of stuff and win what they could and when he faded out why get a new horse. And finally they realized, they could do a better job if they breed their own and treat them right.

SMITH: Did a lot of those horses end up in slaughterhouses is that-- those are the stories I hear?

MCGEE: Well not at that time, they were dead but they didn't always end up in a slaughterhouse.

SMITH: Okay.

MCGEE: But they had some, pretty primitive--I went to Venezuela one time. 01:32:00They called; the Federal vet called and said can you come down here, [knock at door]--that we've got something going on at the racetrack, and we're losing horses and our government, the government was really collecting off of the, the racetrack there. So they were interested in finding out what was the matter. So I went down, and--looked at some horses and posted a few, it turns out that it was equine infectious anemia, fairly easy to diagnosis as far as that goes, and they said well what do we do about it. I said, well the first thing you got to do is get rid of these guys going around with a syringe and shooting these horses full of splor(??) or whatever they are giving them to 01:33:00make them run. "Can you do that?" I didn't think they could, but they, "Oh yeah we can do that." So couple days later I went around the track to check some more horses, and they had barns kind of like Keeneland; aisle in the middle and a ring around the stalls. And at each end of the barn and in the middle there was a soldier standing there with a Tommy gun, machine gun, (laughs) and finally it dawned on---that was what they were going to do to prevent the needlework, you know.

SMITH: Yeah.

MCGEE: I said by God that stopped it. It might've got started again, but they sure stopped it for awhile.

SMITH: So did you get called on a lot of things like that, go elsewhere 01:34:00and solve problems?

MCGEE: Oh yeah, different things--this was a--was a different guy in Venezuela--He called and he had a stud problem. He said his stallion wasn't able to get any mares in foal. So I, I went down and met him at Bogota,--Columbia, I guess--. trying to for--my mind's kind of go--

SMITH: --that's all right--

MCGEE: --anyway, we went from Bogota up in the mountains to his ranch, and went into the breeding shed to see his horse breed, and they had my stuff laid out, and along with it was a forty, 45 automatic, Army issued 01:35:00pistol. And I said, "That really doesn't belong to me but what's that for?" He said "That's just to look at." And I said well--kidnapping is a great outdoor sport down there, you know, it was at that time. And I said "Well, do you have to carry that with you all the time?" He said, "Well either that or have somebody with you carrying one." And I said, "Does it help?" He said, "It sure does." He says," They won't bother anybody that can fire back that's all." So I'd have this with me down there, at that time. We'd get home, go out for dinner, and of course, she'd go around dressed like she always does, an she'd have maybe earrings and a necklace or something. Then we go down to go out to dinner--and the guy says, "Madam, please excuse me, but don't wear that 01:36:00jewelry out on the street." And I said, "What's the matter with it?" He says, "They'll take it." And so Alice took her jewelry off. We weren't bothered but, it--it was a big sport down there those days.

SMITH: Were you able to help the horse?

MCGEE: Yeah--it was a pretty easy diagnosis. (McGee laughs) The horse would go up and wouldn't ejaculate, and they'd think he was bred, the mare. Show was over and they take him back. And I said--they started to take the horse out after he was up once, and I said "Where you going?" " Put him back, he's all through." I said, "No, he's not quite 01:37:00through yet, lead him over there in the corner." And so they led him over there in the corner and pretty soon he came back and was ready to go, and he went up in bred rightly. And I checked the semen and it was fine. So I said, now get somebody that--understands what's the matter and we'll complete the job before you leave here. So they did, and they said it turned out fine, normal procedure.

FALLON: I don't know that you would care to, but if you do, it's not unheard of nowadays for women to go to the breeding shed.

SMITH: Yeah.

FALLON: For them to--back then it wasn't, wasn't done.

SMITH: Yeah.

FALLON: But ah--somebody could explain to you what he's talking about. They're certain things that you see the horse do.

SMITH: Yeah.

FALLON: And if the horse doesn't do that, he hadn't ejaculated. And, 01:38:00you know, it's, the first time or two, somebody tries to show it to you, you can't see it, but the rest of you say, oh yeah.

SMITH: Yeah, you know what you're doing. So did you get a call--do you have a lot of fertility problems, is that part of what you as a reproductive?

MCGEE: No, that's just part of it.

SMITH: Just part of it. But most mostly you just dealt with the mares?

MCGEE: Yeah well, there was always something popping and up in the stallion, they are different diseases they can get and one thing or another, like the human population is always somebody getting in trouble (laughs).

SMITH: Always something different.

FALLON: I think it, you brought--went to Ohio and got the samples and brought the EVA virus back to University of Kentucky.

MCGEE: Arteritis.

SMITH: What was that virus?

MCGEE: Arteritis.

FALLON: Equine viral arteritis.

MCGEE: Well, I didn't, I got the call from up there, and uh, I kind of thought probably there's a chance that what it was, and I got Doll to go with me. And he took his kit and we got samples and everything. I think that was my first diagnosis of the arteritis virus.

FALLON: Which came to be very important in 1984. I don't think we knew it before but there were some stallions, it's a venereal disease as well as a respiratory disease. And there was a stallion that was transmitting it, and it had gone through the stallion barn. There were several stallions that transmitted this venereally, and we had it all around in 1984 but because of what they had done in the 50s, I think it 01:40:00was, wasn't it? 50s?

MCGEE: Probably yeah.

FALLON: They had a vaccine at the University of Kentucky that was--at the veterinary science department, that was ready to go and, we used it in 84 and it worked.

SMITH: That was good luck, as well as some advance planning, I guess.

MCGEE: Well that's what I say; UK's been a big asset to us.

SMITH: And continues to be?

MCGEE: Till course we--lab out here, runs rings around what they had out there now (laughs).

FALLON: Although the liaison is still very worthwhile, you might want to talk to the Timoney's, both of them.

SMITH: Yeah, I got them on my list.

MCGEE: All right, ----------(??) I used to spend quite a little time out to the University, and working with different ones, and I do field 01:41:00work, take samples into them, one thing and another, and I wound up with my name on a lot of those University papers (laughs).

FALLON: That's okay.

SMITH: Yeah, really. I'm going to take you back just a little bit, and ah, because you and Dr. Fallon are the two that have to tell us the stories about Dr. Charlie Hagyard and Dr. Davidson. Particularly Charlie Haggard seems like quite a character. He died when? When did he pass away, was in the 50s?

FALLON: In 95.

SMITH: Oh 95, okay that's ----------(??). Now so did you work with him almost the entire time you were here?

MCGEE: Long as he lasted, yeah and it--after he retired I--we'd go to those two martini lunches about get me down, finally Dr. Charlie got 01:42:00so unsteady on his feet with his cane, he realized that second martini was a little much, so I was glad to see him decide that, because that was getting a little much for me too. But he--Dr. Charlie was--well I can't say enough about him, as I say he's more like a brother to me after I'd been here awhile. He loved a good time, and he was--. honest person, fun to be around, and a--he's a--well--. kind of same 01:43:00way here (Smith and McGee laugh).

SMITH: So he was a good vet?

MCGEE: Yeah, he was. He wasn't overly--. he didn't push a thing too much, he stuck to the facts pretty much, and sometimes you get people in a profession that kind of run out of control as far as promoting themselves and one thing and another, and it's not--but he's, what you see is what you got.

SMITH: Um hum. Now what about Dr. Davidson?

MCGEE: He was,--not as social minded as Dr. Charlie. He was a typical old farm boy, a great guy, but he was more serious minded, and--I 01:44:00think course he's very family-oriented. He had his son, and about three daughters. Lost a son unfortunately, cancer. But he was a hard worker, and uh he--. I don't know, I always felt like Art was, wasn't as happy--he wouldn't

FALLON: Didn't have as much fun.

MCGEE: No. And he was more serious minded--why sometimes we would be around the office and Art would come in and just go right on through and never say anything to anybody, you know. That used to hurt Charlie 01:45:00a little bit.

FALLON: Ah, just moody.

MCGEE: Yeah, but he--

SMITH: But a good surgeon?

MCGEE: Yeah, yes he was. And he was just like myself. He was a little early in the game for what, what they can do down here now. It's so much more out there to absorb. Why--kids come in here with Masters and Ph.D.'s in one thing and another.

FALLON: All sorts of degrees. You may have noticed, this is the McGee medicine facility. That's the Davidson surgical facility down there.

SMITH: Okay. And when did Dr. Davidson retire from here?

FALLON: He died in 96, I don't know.

MCGEE: He was--not over a couple years I don't think.

FALLON: Now he was still around yeah, he'd go look at things.

SMITH: Okay, now you were saying before we get started that you had to retire when you were 65? You had to retire I guess so to speak, huh?

MCGEE: Yeah, that was in the contract, it was part of--

FALLON: --self-imposed. We sold our partnership, but we are able to continue to work with them, which what little I do, I'm an associate. They pay me, I don't share.

SMITH: Okay. So, but you continued to work until?

MCGEE: I saw that agreement that you had signed when I retired, that specifying that I could go on and--. I think 50% of the work requirement. Keep going. I--did appreciable amount of work for maybe a year and kind of tailed off after two years, I think. Something 01:47:00like that.

FALLON: I just kind of hang around. (Smith laughs)

SMITH: I suspect they still come to you for advice.

MCGEE: I was very fortunate when it come my time. It's kind of hard after you'd working for people for 45 years to say well, I'm going, I'm leaving you, (laughs) somebody else will take care of you. But about that time Holder came along and Fishback, and--I spread it around; I think maybe Smith picked up one or two.

SMITH: So when you retired several more were coming into the practice?

MCGEE: So there was--I didn't have any really guilt feeling leaving when I did, because I knew that, that the ones that were going to take over could do everything and more than I could, so, it worked out pretty 01:48:00well that way. A lot of people say you,--so sad, that you shouldn't retired, or they didn't know what they--didn't bother me, cause I let down, and then after, after really I had gotten everybody straightened out on the farm business, I just stayed home, and we had some mares and things over there that I fiddled with for awhile. By the time the shock was over (laughs) I was let down and ready to go.

FALLON: He did some decent artwork.

MCGEE: Ed's wife Priscilla kinda made my retirement that much easier, cause she said, "He's got to do something, he can't just quit and not 01:49:00do anything." Says, "Why don't you do some painting or something?" Well I said, "I can't paint." Said, "Well start with drawing." So I started drawing in little bits you know. Then she got into watercolors. Then she got into the oil and she carried me along there for two or three years till I got so I could stand on my own feet.

SMITH: Oh, that's nice.

MCGEE: So it took up--I got quite a little flight time in the--

SMITH: I saw some of her work when I was at your house. She's quite a, quite a painter. Well I'm going to ask you just a few more questions and then ah, I've kept you a long time. We talked about Man O'War, but who were some of the other horses that you worked with, maybe horses that people might recognize their names? Now we talked about--

FALLON: How about all of them?

MCGEE: Yeah.

SMITH: All of them.

MCGEE: Everything that he named.

FALLON: Citation, Bull Lea.

SMITH: Did you work with Calumet?

MCGEE: Uh-hum.

SMITH: What were some of the other farms that you worked with, know the horses by the farm--

MCGEE: Oh Spendthrift was probably the more commercial farm that--and--I went to England and Ireland to look at mares for Combs and his, his clients, and--Let's see Ardan was, went to California when Alibhai came. A lot of my traveling around was just to look at different 01:51:00horses for purchase by people here. Others were just kind of a fire alarm situation where something would happen, and they'd want somebody else to look at it or something.

SMITH: Uh-huh. Any particular horses stand out, any particular stallions? Or mares?

MCGEE: Names are my nemesis anymore.

SMITH: Well that's okay.

MCGEE: But there's, some good ones and some bad ones.

FALLON: And some of them were mean, a rare one.

SMITH: Yeah, we talked about that--last time. Did you have any horses- -I guess I asked Dr. Fallon this, were you ever injured; did you have injuries from working with the horses?

MCGEE: Oh you get bounced on once in awhile (laughs).

SMITH: Nothing serious, nothing too serious?

MCGEE: I think--it was my fault too in a way, that uh, a Jimmy Drymon over at--they got a new horse in, test breeding him, and he was a young dumb horse and he didn't know what to do, or anything about it, but he got up in the air and he come down on, on (laughs) my shoulder and he drove me into the ground about 6 inches. And I got up shook it off for awhile, I was kind of numb I noticed, but I was scheduled to go--. where was I going? To Mexico. And I asked the doctor, I said 01:53:00"Do you think I can--be all right for me to go on?" He said, "Well if you don't hurt why go ahead." So I went down there, and I went up in the mountains. This guy had a coffee plantation along with his horses. And I went up there, and he got me on one of those--single footed horses that they ride in the mountains, forget what they call them now. Anyway, rode three or four hours up there, and came back and the feeling started coming back in my shoulder. And man alive,--I didn't know what to do, I'd take a couple of shooters and that would help for awhile, or aspirin, wouldn't help it too much, but I said--told him-- 01:54:00and Alice was along with me, I said "Sug' we gotta go home." So we got a changed our air transport around and they got me on a plane out and I got home. But that's--I could get around all right, but man, through my shoulders and back it was--it was pretty tough for awhile. And took about a week or two of massage and--heat therapy, and one thing and another like that to get me back in running, running order again.

SMITH: So it wasn't, wasn't permanent damage, huh?

MCGEE: But that's--you're always getting stepped on or knocked down or something, but it doesn't--that goes with the business.

FALLON: I told Kim that if you're dumb enough to spend half your life 01:55:00standing behind a broodmare you're going to occasionally get kicked. (Smith laugh)

SMITH: There's another thing you brought up that you uhm--that I was wondering about was when we talked about doing the interview out here-- [phone rings]--

FALLON: Sorry.

SMITH: That's okay. About the impact of the sales, you said a lot of your travels were to--when people wanted to purchase a horse. How did the growth of the Keeneland sales, just in this area, how did that impact your work?

MCGEE: Oh it's made a tremendous difference. It's uh,--oh let's see--. I don't know when I started, but say from the time I came, and I started--let's, let's talk about Keeneland. When it got moved out to Keeneland, whenever that was, and they started selling so many more 01:56:00of them of course, but as far as the veterinary work, about the only thing that you had to do was, if there was something, say a horse had something in his eye or--you'd give them a certificate, say it was temporary or something. [doors open and close]

MCGEE: Or some little swelling or a little cut or bruise somewhere, you'd, the only thing you'd do would just say that it was not serious, and would be overcome. By God, now have to x-ray them--and put a-- throat examination--endoscope--What else do they have to do?

FALLON: Oh, the yearlings?

MCGEE: Yeah.

SMITH: The sales.

FALLON: The sales? They take, I don't know how many different views, of x-rays, but, and they put them in a repository, and scope them.

MCGEE: Eyes.

FALLON: I think that's it--well a--yeah the eyes and I think that's it.

MCGEE: Eyes and the throat and the legs.

SMITH: Now were--did the practice help Keeneland select horses to sell? Do--were you involved in those?

MCGEE: No, not anymore. Dr. Davidson used to be primary on that two- man team that saw them all a couple times during the year before they were sold. But I don't know who's doing it now.

FALLON: I don't know who's on that committee.

MCGEE: Nobody from here I don't think.

SMITH: Okay, but it's a committee, not the practice itself? Okay.

MCGEE: But it's so much more, I, I--all those x-rays and scoping and one thing and another--it's time-consuming.

FALLON: It's time-consuming. It makes some money, but it's not fun.

MCGEE: No.

FALLON: I--you know, it's, it's a--just work.

SMITH: Busy work.

FALLON: Yeah, busywork.

MCGEE: So much of it's not really necessary anyway.

SMITH: But back when you were doing it, and they were sending you to Ireland, wherever was--, then it was just, you'd just basically look at the horse?

MCGEE: Yeah. Oh in some cases they have x-rays to look at, but ah--

SMITH: So you were just checking for soundness primarily?

MCGEE: Just being sure what--you got what you paid for, that's all. (laughs)

SMITH: No, but the prices of some of the horses, I guess they need to know that. But what--you saying that wasn't much fun, what did you enjoy most about your years as a vet? What did you enjoy doing?

MCGEE: I--I know I enjoyed all of it. I liked the people and, as Ed said it's kind of like a club, if you're in the horse business; especially the Thoroughbred business, you can go anywhere and you're 01:59:00just a member of the family, you know. And this was true in what my experience has been in England, Ireland, France, Italy. My wife says when they landed on the moon, she says I hope they don't have any broodmares up there or Bill will be on the next shuttle. (all laugh)

FALLON: They just have the cow, huh?

SMITH: Yeah that's right, yeah.

MCGEE: So it's ah--and I enjoyed the people I work with and--could not have, had any better I don't think. I couldn't keep up with the crowd they got here now (laughs).

SMITH: It's a busy place. Well when you look back over your career what ah--is there any particular accomplishments that you're most proud of?

MCGEE: Oh.

SMITH: Something that maybe challenged you and you were able to--deal 02:00:00with it?

MCGEE: Oh, I don't--

SMITH: I know that's a big question, over a long career.

MCGEE: No, it's uh, I just feel like I got in the right slot at the right time and probably the good Lord was looking out for me. I could've gone into medicine, but looking back I don't think I'd have been--. as satisfied there as I was here.

FALLON: No, it's more fun; a lot of hard work, but a lot of fun.

SMITH: When you say that, "a lot of fun", what do you mean? Is it the people?

FALLON: The horses, and the people, and the opportunity to discover. There's always something that, something new--

SMITH: A new challenge?

FALLON: Yeah.

SMITH: Okay. Okay, well that's about all I have listed on here, although I can think of lots of other things to ask you, but we've been at it two hours and I think that's long enough to keep you.

MCGEE: Too long for you you mean?

SMITH: No, no, no, no, not at all. (McGee and Smith laugh) I never get tired of doing these interviews, I'm learning something and everybody, like you say, the people are wonderful. And ah--

MCGEE: --oh it's only three o'clock, and its two hours till cocktail time (all laugh)--

SMITH: --(laughs) that's when we should've started, at three.

FALLON: I think the cupboard is bare nowadays.

SMITH: Okay, well I'll go ahead and end this now, but if I think of some other questions or some things, or if you think of some things--

MCGEE: --sure, any time--

SMITH: --we'll be bringing--I'll get you a copy of the tape, and I'm going to be talking with Dr. Fallon again and we can see if there are some more things you might want to remember and share.

MCGEE: I'll kind of look around home and see if there's anything comes 02:02:00to mind that might be of use to you.

SMITH: Jogs your memory little bit. Okay that'd be good. I can stop this now.

[End of interview.]