Interview with Edward H. Fallon, November 14, 2007

SMITH: All right, this is Kim Smith, and it is November 14th, two- thousand and seven. I am at the home of Ed Fallon in Lexington, and we are conducting our second interview for the Horse Industry of Kentucky Oral History Project. Okay, Doctor Fallon, it's--I'd like to start today with kind of going back, I guess to your childhood to some extent. Let's talk a little bit about your father. Now, in the last interview I know that he worked for--Hal Price Headley, and he started working for him when he was seventeen?

FALLON: Mm-mm.

SMITH: Is that correct? Okay. But as I was leaving, we were just talking about the genealogy that you shared with me. He was also pretty active in K--at Keeneland, he was the treasurer of Keeneland, he was a member of the Thoroughbred Club and [bell rings], a founding 00:01:00member of the Farm Managers Club--I think--

FALLON: You know, I don't really recall. He, he may well have been. But I, I don't really remember that. The chances are he was, since--

SMITH: --okay, okay--

FALLON: --that--

SMITH: What do you think your dad, use to, you know, he started very young with Mr. Chandler and we talked about how he evolved into working primarily with the horses.

FALLON: Mr. Headley.

SMITH: Mr. Headley.

FALLON: Yeah.

SMITH: Sorry. But, clearly he developed a pretty good interest in the industry himself--

FALLON: --mm-mm--

SMITH: --by working with Keeneland, and not, what did, what did he like about the horse industry? Do you think he--

FALLON: --what did he like about it?

SMITH: Yeah, what was it, what, what did he enjoy doing with the--horse industry? I mean is that--because it basically was his career, and not just his--

FALLON: --yeah, I, I, I really know--don't know what to say, he, he enjoyed it all. I, I, I just don't know--

SMITH: --did he own horses?

FALLON: Huh, he--he usually had one mare which was--I'm not sure whether it was something he wanted to do, or was with Mr. Headley's encouragement, but--it's, it's, it's sort of good for people who are working with horses to have one, because then you have a, a more--an appreciation for what your, the other people are doing or what your, as a veterinarian, what your clients are doing.

SMITH: Okay.

FALLON: Huh (clears throat) if, if you have your own vested interest- -and this, it's a thrill when some of the, when any of the horses I've worked on win, especially a big race, but if you have one of your own and it wins a nice race, you know, that's filled in pride in ownership 00:03:00and that's my horse and, a, a horse means--there is nothing like a horse, you, you know. I've, what--what they mean to people. And though they let you--ride on their back--they'll pull a plow with a man walking behind the plow and all you do is ask them.

SMITH: Hum. So, your dad--did he breed the mare in, in--was he able to breed the mare and sell--horses as well, or, how, how did that--

FALLON: Huh, ei--either that, or he, he raced a few.

SMITH: Oh, okay.

FALLON: And--I had a picture, I don't know, not around anymore of his first starter. I can't think of the name of it. But--big, you know, 00:04:00just a little a picture,--big thrill.

SMITH: Yeah.

FALLON: His first starter won a race, so--

SMITH: That's pretty good.

FALLON: Well--Mr. Headley was very good about that kind of stuff. He would not have encouraged him to--have several--because then, you have a conflict of interest.

SMITH: Okay.

FALLON: I mean they--more interested--might be more interested in his stock than Mr. Headley's, you know, that's, that's proper.

SMITH: Right!

FALLON: And also with veterinarians. I think--it's good for veterinarians to have one or two (clears throat) but to--go into the business? It's not good, because you're in competition with your clients.

SMITH: Okay.

FALLON: (clears throat) And where do you go first? (clears throat) When you, where is your interest, best interest lie, so you know, that, that's just commentary--

SMITH: --okay, okay--

FALLON: --in my opinion, doesn't have--

SMITH: --did you ever own a horse?

FALLON: Yeah, they have one out back here that--raced successfully, so--

SMITH: Okay. So, just one or two--is all you ever had?

FALLON: Huh. All we ever had was--the one, I think. When Uncle Charlie was--sold his farm to--Alec Head and Roland De Chambourg, the Hagyard farm out there in Paris Pike--he had a mare (clears throat) that--or f--filly that--he didn't want to do anything with, and she wasn't much of an individual but anyway, I, he gave her to me and we shared her with Jack and Louise and--I named her 'Avuncular' this was because she came from my Uncle, but--she had a, a filly named 'Ark' which was by 00:06:00'One-for-All,' and she's still out there, she is--twenty-six years old, she, she's right out behind the house there.

SMITH: Okay, I'll look for her there.

FALLON: Yeah,--a nice looking mare. Shug McGaughey trained her, Shug is a--gone on to be a Hall of Fame trainer.

SMITH: That's right.

FALLON: --but (clears throat) we had a lot of fun with her.

SMITH: Was that--and that was after your, your uncle died, that you got her--

FALLON: --no, he, it's when he sold the farm--

SMITH: --oh, okay--

FALLON: --that he gave me her mother, and--(clears throat)

SMITH: Okay. So, that would have been, what? 1980?

FALLON: Seventy-five when he sold--

SMITH: .--okay--

FALLON: --sold the farm and--this--mare was born in 1981.

SMITH: Okay, okay. Okay, let's go back to your dad again--and working with, with Mr. Headley, now he stayed there his ent--entire life--

FALLON: --yeah--

SMITH: --was he ever tempted to go elsewhere or to--

FALLON: --not that I know of.

SMITH: Okay, okay.

FALLON: Well, they had a p--a great relationship--(clears throat) I, I'd just said never, never any (clears throat) I never heard anything like that, that he would ever have thought of going any place other than where he was.

SMITH: Okay. Now--was he still working for Mr. Headley when he died in '62?

FALLON: Mm-mm.

SMITH: All right.

FALLON: And (clears throat) he continued until, and Alice Chandler can tell you, he maintained an office at--Alice Chandler's. She provided the space at Mill Ridge until my father died in '73 and then he went- -well he'd been there that morning, the morning that he died, he'd been to Mill Ridge and he'd gone home, and--

SMITH: --oh my--

FALLON: --and he was blessed, he dropped dead, so--

SMITH: --yeah, of, your father or Mr. Headley?

FALLON: Both of them, but--

SMITH: --really--

FALLON: --my, yeah.

SMITH: Huh. So did your father really work up until the time he died, basically?

FALLON: (clears throat) He was--he was not doing anything with the horses.

SMITH: Okay.

FALLON: He was just handling some--accounts of his own.

SMITH: He was executor of the estate?

FALLON: Pardon?

SMITH: He was executor of the estate?

FALLON: Huh, parts of it (clears throat), yeah.

SMITH: Okay.

FALLON: I, I don't know the details of all of that (clears throat)-- excuse me--when Bill Mooney and I went to Notre Dame, I blame it on the incense, my goodness that, that--Sunday mass, you could hardly see in there with the--

SMITH: --oh my!--

FALLON: --with--maybe that's what it was, but--anyway, where were we?

SMITH: I, I was asking about him being the executor of Mr. Headley's estate.

FALLON: Oh, I, he was--n--they called the back part of Beaumont, the 00:09:00Fallon trust and that, that was, however they had a trusteeships set up. I don't know, but--that was the--but--Alice Chandler and Patricia Green and Price Headley, the, that, that trusteeship, and the other trust was the Haggin Trust, I think it was Haggin which was the front part of the farm, which is Beaumont sub--

SMITH: --Center?--

FALLON: --Center, and all that stuff that was--the three older daughters.

SMITH: Okay, so your father was dealing with--what? The three younger children.

FALLON: Huh, namely the whole thing, but I--

SMITH: --okay--

FALLON: --I don't know all the details, so you know, I shouldn't s--

SMITH: --okay--

FALLON: --comment on, in areas where I am not--

SMITH: --that's fine--

FALLON: --that well informed.

SMITH: That's fine.

FALLON: But--

SMITH: I just read that in the, in your--genealogy thing that was talking about your dad, and he was mentioning that.

FALLON: The--Mr. Headley and Gayle, Gayle Mohney who was a very prominent lawyer in Stoll Keenan Ogden, the law firm set up all the-- Mr. Headley's will and everything, so.

SMITH: Yeah, I understand it was pretty complicated.

FALLON: Mm-mm.

SMITH: It took several years to--to settle.

FALLON: Mm-mm.

SMITH: So, well, I don't know what you could be able to remember about your--dad's working with Mr. Headley, was there any special experiences--horses, and of course I've heard all about 'Menow,' that your father was particularly proud of or--that you can remember? I know that's a hard question, I couldn't do this if somebody was asking me about my dad, but--

FALLON: I, I, I can't really say--but did you, do you know Mr. Headley's 00:11:00production record for--I, I think--this is more or less the, the right number. He bred and raised, I think, eighty-five stakes winners, which for a man who was more-or-less self-made, that's--incredible.

SMITH: I'm going to stop for a minute--

FALLON: --yeah, I was going to do it but I was--

SMITH: --close that door.

FALLON: --I d--didn't know how to unhook here.

[Pause in recording.]

FALLON: That helped.

SMITH: That helps. It's okay.

FALLON: It was a, a wonderful place to grow up.

SMITH: [sound interference]--the farm?

FALLON: --Oh my goodness, you know, I had--eventually I'd, I think the-- 00:12:00number of acres varies in different people's memories, but I think there were, he ended up with twenty-four hundred--

SMITH: --okay--

FALLON: --contiguous acres and (clears throat) having all that to roam over and grow up on was a--dream world.

SMITH: Did you always have a horse you could ride?

FALLON: There was always a horse, yeah, yeah.

SMITH: Okay, hum. I know in the last interview, we talked a little bit about some of the things you did on the farm--for fun. Do you remember anything, anything in particular to holidays--family activities, Halloween, Christmas, Thanksgiving?

FALLON: Huh-huh--Halloween (clears throat) in those days was--who, we didn't, we didn't do much in the country, we'd have, we may have had a pumpkin, but--the b--boys who lived in town were more into pranks. And 00:13:00there wasn't the trick or treat.

SMITH: Oh.

FALLON: That just kind of came along later. But they would soap windows and oh they might do some other pranks or something--

SMITH: --you didn't do any of that?--

FALLON: --no, and I lived in the country and--

SMITH: --yeah--

FALLON: --by the time I was old enough to go to town, I'd sort of outgrown it (laughs) so--

SMITH: --your dad had a pretty large family, as I recall.

FALLON: There were eleven of them and--eight of them grew to adulthood.

SMITH: Did you spend much time with any of them, would they--did they stay around here?

FALLON: Several of them--had--let me see there were three aunts I knew, and--four--brothers, one of them died shortly after the--First World 00:14:00War.

SMITH: Oh, okay.

FALLON: But--one of the--

SMITH: --your father was one of the youngest?

FALLON: He was the youngest.

SMITH: Oh!

FALLON: Yeah--

SMITH: --okay--

FALLON: --aside from--my--one woman, one aunt that was younger.

SMITH: Okay. Did any of them work with horses?

FALLON: No. Our--of course they all grew up with them.

SMITH: Right.

FALLON: But,--because they were means of conveyance but--n--none of them ended up--wo--working with horses (clears throat). His father, my father's father had a m--a retail coal yard and when he was a little boy growing up in Cincinnati (clears throat), he'd watch the coal 00:15:00barges going up and down the Ohio River and he, for some reason, so the story go, he wanted to be in the coal business and they moved to Lexington and (clears throat) had a re--retail coal yard.

SMITH: Okay. It's probably fairly profitable with that time period.

FALLON: I, I would, I think so, yeah.

SMITH: Yeah.

FALLON: Well he died rather young (clears throat) I have forgotten what year, but he was fifty-two years old, or something like that? And--his wife died the same year. She died first (clears throat) and--he left some rather young ones. I think my father was probably about fourteen when, when he, when his father died, and they just kind of took care, they took care of each other because both of their parents were gone--

SMITH: --oh okay--

FALLON: --and so--

SMITH: --okay, yeah, that happens sometimes, yeah.

FALLON: Yeah.

SMITH: Now--you were talking to me about--Mr. Headley's farm being 00:16:00somewhat unusual--that he--basically made money--

FALLON: ---mm-mm--

SMITH: --off of the farm, he didn't have the inherited wealth that so many farm owners--

FALLON: --I, I'd--

SMITH: --have.

FALLON: Alice could probably tell you more but--he inherited a start.

SMITH: Yeah.

FALLON: But--then, then he did a lot more with it.

SMITH: What do you thing made him so successful? What do you think your father would of--

FALLON: His--I, I (clears throat) I, I wouldn't call him an entrepreneur, but, but--a b--intelligent, smart and--terribly hard worker.

SMITH: Hum, mm. What about your dad, what was com--what was the typical 00:17:00day like for him that he--

FALLON: --oh, on, on the farm (clears throat) the, the w--they started to work--in the winter time--they'd start at seven o'clock in the morning and quit at--quitting time was six at night, so they put in an eleven hour day with an half-an-hour for lunch. But--he'd be there to start the job, he'd be there to close it up and--he had to--on Saturdays--

SMITH: --thank you--

FALLON: --he'd go to the b--

MRS. FALLON: Do you want some coffee?

SMITH: Huh, huh, yes please.

FALLON: On Saturdays he'd go to the bank and get the payroll which was cash in those days and they paid in cash and--then on Sundays there was no labor, but with livestock you have to tend to them seven days a week.

SMITH: Yeah.

FALLON: So--he would check on things and they had a skeleton crew on Sundays of two or three men that look after things and do what feeding was necessary and--

SMITH: So how many men did work with the horses at that time?

FALLON: With the horses?

SMITH: Mm-mm. (Fallon clears throat) Or how many employees?

FALLON: With the horses, there were--maybe about five, I, I would have to do a little more looking on the farm. Of course in the racing stable there would be--depending on how many he had in training, which was never a tremendous amount, but he might have--Alice again could tell you better--he might have eighteen, something like that in his training stable, which is all anybody needs, that's all you can keep 00:19:00in----------(??), and--then he'd have the, the help to take care of those and probably one man to two, or three, or four horses in the training stable.

SMITH: That are in training.

FALLON: Yeah.

SMITH: Well--

FALLON: --because there is so much more to do with them.

SMITH: About how many mares would he have had--oh, let's say in the 1950s, forties, fifties?

FALLON: By the fifties he had gotten, he'd c--he'd cut the size of the herd, probably down to twelve mares, but before that he had--f--forty or forty-five.

SMITH: Okay, well, that, that a pretty reasonable size for that time period?

FALLON: There again, I think that's, that's all you need, that, those mares provided him with--with enough foals to go to the races, to take to the races and--keep his stable supplied.

SMITH: Were there any other farms around that time period, in the thirties, forties, fifties--that were comp--comparable to Beaumont? The Hancocks, or--

FALLON: Huh, the, the Hancocks had--o--other clients. Mr. Headley didn't have any other clients.

SMITH: Oh, okay.

FALLON: Huh, huh, but that, they had other, other clients' horses and, and raced some of their own--so, you know, I'd, I really can't think of any--thing that's comparable.

SMITH: Oh.

FALLON: Now there were other places--the--the Whitneys had Greentree--

SMITH: --right--

FALLON: --and--C. V. Whitney had the C. V. Whitney Farm t--the Wideners had Elmendorf, but that was all eastern money.

SMITH: Right.

FALLON: There, there were those farms which were--maintained (clears throat) with money other than what the farm generated, and I think Mr. Headley was somewhat unique to be as tremendously successful, I, to m--to my knowledge. There were some other farmers (clears throat)-- Leslie Combs who (clears throat) was terribly successful with Spendth. . , Spendthrift had an uncle, Brownell Combs who was a--a s--a sort of a genius as a breeder, and he was a farmer and had, I don't know how many but a few, a few nice mares and he had s--had sort of provided the basic blood stock for Spendthrift when Leslie Combs started out and--Mr. Brownell's brother of Mr. Luke Combs, I did Mr. Luke's work 00:22:00when I got out of school, and--Mr. Luke had five or six mares (clears throat) maybe a few more but (clears throat)--and, and nothing with tremendous success that, that I recall from Mr. Headley's farm.

SMITH: Mm-mm.

FALLON: And--

SMITH: --okay, okay, good. Yeah, I've heard a little bit about Spendthrift and--

FALLON: --Spendthrift?

SMITH: Yeah, and Combs.

FALLON: Leslie Combs was a--a promoter.

SMITH: Yeah.

FALLON: And, and--you know, he did everything in a grand style.

SMITH: Did you work for him?

FALLON: I did some work around the farm but--Doctor McGee was the primary veterinarian--

SMITH: --okay--

FALLON: --for years, at, at Spendthrift.

SMITH: Okay, hum. I'm going to--we can, I'm sure we'll talk about your 00:23:00father on and off through this and, and his work. Do you remember anything he had to say--memories about him working at Keeneland? Do you remember anything that he particularly thought about Keeneland?

FALLON: I remember going over there with him (clears throat) when I was a little boy and--it was--it was, it was nothing like it is now--but he would go in there and check with--Mr. Bishop, and--I believe the- -there was a fellow named Hobert Burton (coughs) that was a maintenance man, and Hobert's father worked on the farm for Mist--Mr. Headley, and his name was Otis, a wonderful fellow, but--and then I think one was the name who worked in the office was Martha Lawson Brown, and that was 00:24:00kind of it. That it seemed like they ran the show--but they, everybody worked hard, you know, you know, they didn't--go to town or go out to lunch a lot, they probably took their lunch with them.

SMITH: He was managing the farm and also working at Keeneland. How much of a strain was that?

FALLON: Well, he was keeping the books.

SMITH: Okay.

FALLON: He kept the books for Mr. Headley, and he kept the books for Keeneland, that, that was a--secretary-treasurer's job--at that time, well, it was, was a--you know, the first association when everything was in its infancy.

SMITH: Was he involved with the--breeders' sales?

FALLON: Not directly.

SMITH: Okay.

FALLON: That (clears throat) didn't really come along until the mid forties.

SMITH: Okay.

FALLON: And--Uncle Charlie Hagyard--I don't know whether he was 00:25:00the first president or--but he ended up being the president of the breeders' sales for several years (coughs)--forgive me.

SMITH: Was that unusual for a veterinarian to be--involved in, in that aspect of the business?

FALLON: Why I guess it was, I think he was the--only one to do it, so--

SMITH: Oh okay.

FALLON: --And so, I, I guess it was (clears throat). But everything was--(coughs) forgive me--getting started and on a smaller scale. So you know, there wasn't so much, so much to do as there is now.

SMITH: Now--Alice has explained that it--the sales basically started because they couldn't get to Saratoga--during the war.

FALLON: During the war, mm-mm.

SMITH: Now--Charlie Hagyard had a farm.

FALLON: Mm-mm.

SMITH: Now, what was the size of that operation?

FALLON: There were three-hundred and thirty acres--

SMITH: --okay--

FALLON: --on, on the Paris Pike, and--he had--oh shoot, and he had the mares for Hirsch Jacobs and Isidor Bieber, it was Bieber- Jacobs. John Jacobs (clears throat) trained a few horses after his father, but-- Bieber-Jacobs' stable was extremely successful.

SMITH: Okay.

FALLON: Those, an interesting to things about where horsemen come from? Hirsch Jacobs (clears throat)--grew up in Brooklyn and he had a, a homing pigeon coat as, as a boy and then somehow or other got, I don't 00:27:00know how he got interested in race horses, but didn't grow up with horses, but he got into it and he had a talent. But--and so--some of us who grew up with the horses, grow up the horses wouldn't have that talent and that we don't isn't that--that's nice, you know, as a, that that talent is out there. I can--

SMITH: So when, when did he--purchase the farm and start?

FALLON: About 1930 or '31, and my grandfather was still alive and active and he helped him buy it and--I can't tell you the complete history of the farm other than that, and--I have forgotten just when he got it paid off, but during the Second World War, I know they--were raising chickens, he had some--everybody was doing something like that.

SMITH: Yeah, now why was that? Why was that? Why do they--have to do those kind of--?

FALLON: Well--I, I think it, a lot of it, a lot of it was necessary but now the, my impression of the--oh let me see, in 1941, I had just turned ten years of age, at Pearl Harbor, and (clears throat) the impressions of a boy that age would be different than a grown man perhaps, but, the, the Second World War effort was an all out effort and--whether it happened, or whether it was designed however it did happen, everything was rationed, almost everything--gasoline, tires, you couldn't get a car--food, certain foods, specially meat, shoes, s--I think some items 00:29:00of clothing and--paper drives and tin can drives, we'd throw them all in--one-hundred percent awareness with the people, and--we haven't seen that since--and I don't know whether we need to, but--perhaps.

SMITH: Not quite the same, but--

FALLON: --no, no--

SMITH: --but those who were involved in the horse industry contributed in their--

FALLON: They had gardens, they called them Victory Gardens, and so--some of them were just little backyard patches and others were several acres that they planted for, the, the people to use, you know, for local use (clears throat)--she may have done it anyway, but my mother was going 00:30:00to Lafayette High School where they had the home ec. facility, and she was doing all sorts of canning, putting into--we were going over there to help with putting up things in canned goods. A all out, all out effort (clears throat).

SMITH: Mm-mm. So you would have been, ten, eleven, twelve during the war years. Do you have any other memories of that time period? What-- the war effort meant to the community, to the farm now that you couldn't race at that point either, could you--we--racing was--

FALLON: Huh (clears throat) the r--racing if, if not completely was-- almost completely stopped--dark, I, I don't think there was any, I, I couldn't tell you exactly.

SMITH: Okay. I can talk to the, to Ed Bowen on something about that.

FALLON: Yeah, I, I think that (clears throat)--I don't remember exact- -d--everything was limited but--(clears throat) can't tell you, d--I can't tell you for sure, I don't remember. (clears throat)

SMITH: Okay.

FALLON: Well now, I had the b--I would like to call it a privilege (clears throat) of growing up on that farm (clears throat) and working in the tobacco and the hay, and of, the wheat, everything else with a wonderful bunch of men. You know, most of them--could read and write, but--they weren't well educated, but they were intelligent--just hadn't had the opportunities, but--

SMITH: Mm-mm. Now were these primarily African-American?

FALLON: Both they were, on the farm there were more--whites. There were some Africans, African-Americans. The racing stable and the--a 00:32:00lot of the horse help, although not so much on the farm, were African- Americans.

SMITH: Okay, okay, hum, hum.

FALLON: That's, that's--it was more or less common place at--

SMITH: --at that time--

FALLON: --at that time, mm-mm.

SMITH: Yeah, I think Doct--Henry White and I have talked about that as, as well as, as some others, and--how that's changed--some over the years. I saw that in--I'm going to--stop this for a minute, because the sound's going all over the board and I don't know if it's that, or if it's something else, so let me just--

FALLON: While you do let me--

[Pause in recording.]

SMITH: Oh, Mm, I hope this is right. I'm not real sure where we--what we were talking about when we decided to end this. (Fallon clears throat). So we will just start again.

FALLON: I, I think we ended up talking about the, my working on the farm with--

SMITH: --yeah--

FALLON: --blacks and the whites and the percentage who worked in the stables and, of, of which worked on the f--in the stables and on the farm.

SMITH: Yeah, now this was in the forties that we're talking about, probably?

FALLON: Forties and (clears throat) on into the fifties, and--then farm labor changed quite a bit, about that time (clears throat) when they still raising a lot of tobacco and hay, but there was a lot more machinery. A lot more mechanization and so--not as much hand labor--

SMITH: --yeah--

FALLON: --and--well still e--everything with horses is still--hands on--

SMITH: --yeah--

FALLON: --that, that, that hadn't changed, the (clears throat) the-- help--didn't really--change from the African-Americans to--more whites 00:34:00and now Hispanics--I can't tell you when.

SMITH: It seems like from I've, from what uh, Mr. White was telling me it probably at--late sixties.

FALLON: On his farm.

SMITH: Mm-mm.

FALLON: Huh, he still had some old (clears throat) blacks who had been there forever--

SMITH: Right.

FALLON: And, you know, they were old friends, and (clears throat) very good horsemen (clears throat).

SMITH: When you were--working on the farm, either as a teenager or--then through college age, I assume that's what you're saying that after school when you would help out on the farm?

FALLON: Not, not so much after school but in, in, in the summertime.

SMITH: Okay.

FALLON: And on, on, on Saturdays, I, I would--work on the farm. But during the school year--I was playing football and stuff and even when I got on up into high school, I had--when I was old enough to drive--

SMITH: --yeah--

FALLON: --and a lot of other things started going on.

SMITH: Well, these people that you worked with on the farm, what did you learn from them?

FALLON: Oh! I don't want to say that, the, I don't want to say that (clears throat) the facts of life as is commonly used, but--I d--ind- -indeed, a lot about--just what life's about (clears throat). Now I, I'd, I don't know what to--say, but, they were very nice to me. I 00:36:00don't think, not necessarily because I was the, the boss's son, but just--they were some nice people, they were nice to the other boys my age as well and, and they, they would show you how to do things that, you know, the men show the boys how to do things (clears throat), if you were willing to--do a man's job they were, they praised you, you know, the m--(clears throat) I don't know whether (clears throat) you, would want to print such a thing but (clears throat) I worked with a, with a black man who was--I think he came, I think he'd killed three people (clears throat) and he didn't get along with everybody. We got along famously and this, this guy was intelligent (coughs) and I, he just had a bad temper, I think (both laugh), but--oh my was he strong, 00:37:00and could he work! But, but he was always very nice to me, you know, that, it just--that, that was unusual, but--I remember him so well.

SMITH: Did he work with the horses?

FALLON: Huh, rarely, if ever. I, I think he may have filled in as a teamster, driving mules, but--he never really worked with the--the horses, if, if at all. He'd, he worked--do, doing labor on the farm.

SMITH: And when you worked there in the summer, did you get paid?

FALLON: Oh yeah!

SMITH: Oh yeah, okay.

FALLON: Mr. Headley--I think I probably told you before he--he expected 00:38:00everybody to work hard, but he paid well, extremely well, better than almost anybody else in the area, and--at Christmas time, just terribly generous, and--I think I probably told you before that--he took care of p--of people, you know, d--doctor bills and--he provided housing and--

SMITH: For the people who worked with him?

FALLON: Yeah.

SMITH: Mm-mm. So he gave Christmas bonuses?

FALLON: Oh my goodness! A, a, big ones in those days, just incredible amount--yeah, I mean in today's terms, but--

SMITH: --right--

FALLON: --the per--percentage of what he gave was--terribly generous (clears throat).

SMITH: Well let's t--talk a little bit more about--your uncle. How 00:39:00would you describe his influence on you in terms of being a mentor or--in teaching you about horses?

FALLON: Well (clears throat) Uncle Charlie was a lot of fun (clears throat). You probably heard that from other people, but--I, he'd made the veterinary work--fun--and it, it's hard work but it, it's fun and--I think any of us who do veterinary work here would probably tell you the same thing that--or at least I would hope so, that--it, it's hard work but, but it's fun, and we are so privileged to, to be able 00:40:00to do it, but (clears throat) there is so much opportunity to f--for excitement, not only with, with the horses that--win a big race, but or with success with getting so many mares in foal, but that there is (clears throat) always a challenge out there that you haven't, that hasn't arisen yet and--always something to discover, and--I, I hope that's true in most of life, but--it certainly was in mine, doing this.

SMITH: And was that your experience when you were younger with your-- being around your uncle--you thought it was--

FALLON: I, I--he was showing me things--and--I, I knew what he had done 00:41:00and, you know, f--forgive me for being trite, pushing back the frontiers of the unknown, but--and I, I didn't necessarily aspire to that, but-- it happened, and you, the opportunities are there to, to get in on this with--people like him and--Doctor McGee and Jack Bryans especially, and the whole--bunch at the Gluck Center where--it was exciting and fun.

SMITH: Mm-mm. Now, did you know Doctor McGee--back in the forties, did you--

FALLON: Oh yeah.

SMITH: Okay.

FALLON: (clears throat) Mm-mm (clears throat). The--it was sort of like family, the McGees and the Davidsons and--we were often together. I was, of course I was much younger, but--it was all, just kind of a 00:42:00family attitude, and the, the, the practice was like that for quite a few years and, and now we've gotten immense--

SMITH: Yes, yes, a very large practice. But we talked about, when we were together the last time and we'd interviewed Doctor McGee about some of the horses that, that you had worked with, now--your uncle, you said, cared for four triple-crown winners? I can kind of guess who that might be, but do you know who those were?

FALLON: Huh--I'd have to look at the list of triple-crown winners--to, to pick them out.

SMITH: I was thinking maybe 'Whirl Away?'

FALLON: Oh yeah!

SMITH: At the Calumet?

FALLON: Mm-mm. He would have been doing the work at Calumet then and probably Art Davidson was also--he was--Uncle Charlie would have 00:43:00been doing the broodmare work--and--I can't, can't think of the other triple-crown winners, of course 'Citation' came along, but I can't think of what was in between, what--did 'Assault' win all three of them? He, he was King Ranch, he went back to Texas--

SMITH: I have to go back and look too--

FALLON: --mm-mm--

SMITH: --at--but so he worked for Calumet Farm--

FALLON: --mm-mm, mm-mm--

SMITH: --with, with Mr. Davidson--or Doctor Davidson as well.

FALLON: Art Davison came here--about 1936 I want to say, and--was just getting under way (clears throat) and Uncle Charlie had--sort of--worked too hard, and, and you know, he was--so he took off several 00:44:00months, went to Montana in 1939 when he was thirty-eight years old, and that's where he became acquainted with Doctor McGee and that--

SMITH: --okay--

FALLON: --you heard all that the other day--

SMITH: --right--

FALLON: --that's how that happened. But--Art Davidson was the, was working in Davenport, Iowa (clears throat) and--a fellow who had--I for--don't remember the man's name, was Uncle Charlie--one of Uncle Charlie's classmates, I don't think he was a roommate, classmate when he went to veterinary college in--Guelph, Ontario, Ontario Veterinary College, and he called Uncle Charlie up and told him he had a young man working there in Davenport who was too good to be working at the level 00:45:00he was working and wanted to know if he'd be interested in giving him a chance so the Davidsons came down here.

SMITH: Hum, okay.

FALLON: That, that's his, the story as I know it.

SMITH: Right.

FALLON: So.

SMITH: Right. And he would of worked on the horses--adult horses, the racing--horses more than breeding.

FALLON: He g--he got himself into that--

SMITH: --okay--

FALLON: --area, he (clears throat)--developed a great skill in, in--a firing the horses and--of a put on just--exquisite patterns always for, attractive to, you know, that, because of his artistry it had to be better than what other people could do. And--he also became the surgeon as far as our surgery went in those days and--that, he got relegated to that area as being the practice surgeon and Uncle Charlie 00:46:00and Bill McGee were--the broodmare men.

SMITH: Mm-mm. So, it really took, at least two or three of you to work at a particular farm.

FALLON: No!

SMITH: If there was racing as well as breeding.

FALLON: Yeah! But everybody did a little bit of everything.

SMITH: Okay.

FALLON: But the, these were the specialties as, as they, as specialized as we were at that time, and we weren't too specialized.

SMITH: Mm-mm, mm-mm. Now--back to your uncle, and then we will talk some about--Doctor Bryans as well, but--what do you think that--he was particularly proud of as being a vet, what were some of the accomplishments or areas that he worked that he might have been--most involved in or most proud of, do you know?

FALLON: Huh, reproduction and--they had--he had a, a mentor, Doctor 00:47:00Dimock who was at the Univer--at the Veterinary Science Department, now the Gluck Center--who had enc--encouraged--him to get into examining the mares for pregnancy and they, I think they s--when they got it down to--when they started off at a hundred-fifty days or something w--and they finally got it down to forty-five days, to manually determine that the mare was in foal (clears throat) and--and this was--cutting edge in those days.

SMITH: Yeah.

FALLON: And then, believe it or not--why he was sort of a--known for just suturing the mares--because of the, their posture they--aspirate 00:48:00air into the vagina and causes, you know, they got infections and--ir-- they are irritated and just suturing the vulva down was I don't know how much money that made for horsemen--

SMITH: --really--

FALLON: --you know, because they got the mares in foal, but just, my goodness what a--

SMITH: --a simple--

FALLON: --that, nowadays it's so, you couldn't believe that they hadn't done it forever, but--introduced that. Doctor Dimock I think there again wa--was originator. It's gotten another mans name on it, which is fine, Caslick who was a--a very wonderful veterinarian and worked at--Claiborne--

SMITH: --okay.

FALLON: It is called the Caslick operation in our days--those, those 00:49:00things and then the vaccines, and he was a very active in--at one time we had salmonella abortions and now it's disappeared, but we have other salmonella, intestinal things and a, but--they, they used that vaccine until it disappeared and--and then he was active in the original work on virus abortion, and--then as that was along in the mid fifties, he started to back off. That's about the time I got out of school and--

SMITH: Okay, so he slowed down--

FALLON: --mm-mm--

SMITH: --in his practice?

FALLON: Mm-mm.

SMITH: Okay. When did he actually retire? Or did he ever completely retire?

FALLON: When he was--eighty. I know he came out to Hagyard Farm and 00:50:00examined two mares for pregnancy and he'd said he just wanted to--do that on his eightieth birthday. (Smith laughs)

SMITH: Now, was that his farm, or is that the--

FALLON: --not at that time, he'd sold it by then--

SMITH: --okay--

FALLON: --but (clears throat) and I think he, a--actually retired about 1973 or four, when he was seventy-two or three years old.

SMITH: Okay, okay, hum, hum. Well let's, let's talk a little bit about, is it--he goes by Jack Bryans, is that right?

FALLON: He was John T. Bryans but he went by Jack.

SMITH: Okay now, he is your brother-in-law.

FALLON: Mm-mm.

SMITH: Okay, so when did you--he was working at UK when he married, when he got married, was that right?

FALLON: Huh-huh--when I went to Cornell, my second year in veterinary 00:51:00college (clears throat)--Jack was our instructor in--bacteriology la-- lab--

SMITH: --at Cornell?--

FALLON: --at Cornell. Jack was working on his PhD and--he had a cohort named--Ernie Beverstein Ernst, Beverstein--and that, that was an all- star cast--oh and interesting fun aside--Jack was at a party at Saratoga thirty-five or forty years ago and he ran into this, and--he started calling her Ernie and she said, "why are you calling me Ernie?" he say, "well you have an accent just like one of my very good friends." She said, "who is that?" and he said, "Ernie Beverstein" she said, "that's my nephew." It was Marie Proskauer who had a successful farm--

SMITH: --oh really!--

FALLON: --here and they both--escaped the Nazis from Breslau and the Breslau accent is somewhat distinctive, and--Jack had identified her accent--

SMITH: Through that way, huh! Small world.

FALLON: Mm-mm. And Ernie went on to, he was getting his PhD too and he is a professor at--the University of California at Davis, the veterinary college. He is retired now, I'm sure.

SMITH: So when did--Doctor Bryan come here?

FALLON: He finished his PhD in--I think '54 and he came down here.

SMITH: Okay.

FALLON: He had been here before working with Roger Doll and--I guess finished his masters degree here and then he went to Cornell to finish 00:53:00his--get his PhD..

SMITH: Okay, okay, yeah, that's what I read. So the two of you kind of came back here around the same time.

FALLON: Mm-mm.

SMITH: Okay.

FALLON: We have been--just a--got to doing things together, I got, I'd go with he and Roger Doll (clears throat) draw blood samples and give vaccines and--I didn't have a whole lot more to do then--in the off time, off season, the sales weren't as big and there wasn't so much to do at the sales and--we'd have a lot of downtime to--

SMITH: The breeding season wasn't as, as long as it is now?

FALLON: The breeding season started like it does now, the 15th of February but it really didn't get going until the f--the first of April (clears throat) and--most people would quit by the--20th of June.

SMITH: Mm, mm-mm, mm-mm. One of the things I'm curious about is, is the--department at UK. I know it's gone to various names, now it's the Gluck Center--it--was that unusual to have that at a location that did not also have a vet school?

FALLON: Probably not.

SMITH: Okay, okay.

FALLON: The--UK is a--land grant school?

SMITH: Right.

FALLON: So, they would have a (clears throat) those types of facilities.

SMITH: Okay.

FALLON: Where Commonwealth Stadium is and all of that stuff in there, the hospital, was all part of a--experim--experiment station.

SMITH: Okay.

FALLON: It was all farm (clears throat). And--now of course it's all 00:55:00developed--

SMITH: --right--

FALLON: --but--I, I th--I think that but as far as the veterinary college is concerned, the, they did a--de--demographic study.

SMITH: I think you told me about this in the last one to show that there really wasn't--

FALLON: --the state of Kentucky--

SMITH: --Auburn was taking care of--

FALLON: --yeah.

SMITH: Okay.

FALLON: They can't justify the expense--

SMITH: --okay--

FALLON: --of, of, you know, it would cost a lot of money to--build a facility and--(clears throat) acquire the land if they don't already have--

SMITH: --right--

FALLON: --the land they're building on, and then to staff it.

SMITH: Okay.

FALLON: And, but--the state of Kentucky's r--requirement for graduate, veterinary graduates doesn't quite justify that, so--

SMITH: Would the--well this, again now it's called the Gluck Center, was that with its emphasis on equine research, are there oth--how many 00:56:00other places around the country have--a similar facilities? Is it that isn't--

FALLON: It is unique!

SMITH: Okay, that's what I thought.

FALLON: Yeah, yeah.

SMITH: So how much did that relationship help the veterinary practice around here?

FALLON: Huh (clears throat) I, I wouldn't say that this is not, is not contradictory. I wouldn't say infinitely, but on the other hand, I don't know what we'd do without them (clears throat) and--it's too bad we don't have more to do with the Gluck Center than we do, because we have in the past had more contact, but things were smaller. Everything was small and we got to, we got together more often, and--of course we 00:57:00intermarried this now but (clears throat)--some of that fun aspect's sort of missed.

SMITH: But they still work very closely--

FALLON: --mm-mm--

SMITH: --t--with the vet practices.

FALLON: Mm-mm, and they will do anything in the world for you, you know, the--

SMITH: Huh, well how would you if, talking about--Doctor Bryan, how would you g--describe his contribution to equine medicine?

FALLON: Oh my goodness!

SMITH: I know, big question.

FALLON: (coughs)--There are other things but he was--I, I can't count them all, but--wasn't, didn't start it all, but he was one of the 00:58:00pioneers in--the virus abortion research and vaccine production, which has been ex--extremely effective (drinks) just almost blocks it out, not eradicate. It only dampens it and you know if you ever take the vaccine away it will come right with, it's, it's right there those viruses lay----------(??) and you keep them dampen, but when you remove the damper it will--present itself (coughs)--I am sorry.

SMITH: It's okay.

FALLON: --The botulinum toxoid of which I have a lot to do with as well, but Jack was--intimately involved in that as well as Jim(??)--I don't 00:59:00know what else do they, Willie McCollum was--principally involved with the EVA Equine Viroliratus--what else? It won't all come to mind but--

SMITH: Was that primarily viruses that he was working with?

FALLON: And bacteria on the, the, boctox, not to be confused with botox (Smith laughs) but they are the same, same thing but what one of them is, the botox is active and the boctox is inactive, what the boc-- boctox is a vaccine made from the same thing as the botox. That, that gets complicated I don't know whether--

SMITH: --okay--

FALLON: --I don't know what type--the botox is but the boctox is type B--

SMITH: --okay--

FALLON: --that--

SMITH: What does it do?

FALLON: The Boctox?

SMITH: Mm-mm.

FALLON: (clears throat) We saw something, we called shaker foals and they were usually presented when they were from anywhere from two weeks to three months of age but essentially around six weeks of age and--they were just--able to stand for only so many minutes and--they couldn't nurse too well because they were, they had a muscular weakness from the, the botulism (coughs) and oh we had some fun--didn't know what it was and finally I, I don't know whether I get any credit for 01:01:00that or not, but I was watching Ben Casey on television, and they were, he was treating myotheni gravis which is a muscular weakness and your face droops and--they were giving him----------(??) the humans. Ha-ha! So I tried that on the horses and it seemed to help a little. Now we wouldn't do that, but--finally we thought it might be botulism and we didn't know what the origin was, and John Chandler and I in the late sixties at Henry White's, I think I can show you the stall if they haven't tore it down--cut the foal's navel out because we thought that could be the origin, a navel infection? And that didn't kill it but--botulism did anyway. The operation didn't kill it, but--then 01:02:00I--I talked to a fellow at Wisconsin Serum lab, I think Jack had put me in touch with him, a fellow named Swartz terribly nice, and the only toxoid they produced was type-C and we tried it. It didn't do any good but--then by hook and crook we got in touch with this nice, terribly nice man, George Lewis at Fort Dietrich and George was working on rhesus monkeys with botulism and George said, "I don't know what I can do, but I'll do something." (clears throat) and he came to, by that time, Jim Klyza had gone to--I guess at Tufts in--Massachusetts to get a masters degree in--some part of veterinary medicine, just medicine, 01:03:00I guess. And he'd had contact with--Charlie Hathaway at the CDC in Atlanta and--Hathaway said, we ended up somehow or the other sending fecal samples of some of these foals to Hathaway and he isolated the organism from it and so it turned out to be an intestinal blockage and infection instead of being a--wound infection.

SMITH: Oh, okay.

FALLON: And--he identified the organism as type-B and--and in talking to George Lewis, George knew a whole lot of stuff. Somebody had made several treks across the United States, across the--Canadian border, and a couple across the middle of the country, and one across the southern border (clears throat) predom--predominant type east of 01:04:00Mississippi is type-B and west of the Mississippi is type-A. This, this is all complicated stuff, but--we gave the mares type-B toxoid to, so the mares would make antibodies and put it in the colostrum in the first milk to protect the foals and it worked--like it should.

SMITH: Yeah.

FALLON: But it worked.

SMITH: Hum. You've--you know, we talked a little bit about, you know, the virus, the vaccines and the use of lighting, and all the advances over the years that's really improved--breeding in terms of, of numbers. How has that impacted the industry? What kind of impact of, have, have these advances had on the industry? How would you describe that?

FALLON: Huh (clears throat) w--well we get a lot, a lot more foals out 01:05:00of the same mare in, in her reproductive--lifespan. That's it namely, and we don't lose as many. The, you know, first off started with probably the suturing, which I told you about--

SMITH: --yeah--

FALLON: --which was probably in the twenties, 1920s--

SMITH: --oh okay--

FALLON: --and then the pregnancy diagnosis which was about the same time--and we were talking with Doctor McGee about palpating mares (clears throat) to determine the--best time for breeding and the post breeding to see if they have ovulated or if they wanted to send it back, so on and so forth. Earlier diagnosis of pregnancy and now, with 01:06:00ultrasound, you can detect them you know--at a f--at a useful time of fourteen to fifteen days post breeding. Or you can see things earlier but you wouldn't bank on it and--getting rid of twins with, I don't see many twins any more because we pop one of the vesicles--and, what else? The lights, disease control, the vaccines, of course you have the drugs that came in, antibiotics and they had sulfur drugs in the thirties, and antibiotics in the forties, and now more antibiotics. Now we did do some programming (clears throat) which has uses but we did it on 01:07:00large scale basis in the--mid to late seventy, with like the pill for women progesterone and estrodol it's, it's a blockade and--we could have the, the mares all due to ovulate on a certain day and so then they can s--they'll have him targeted to--

SMITH: --oh okay, okay--

FALLON: --kind of--that's--something to do--it has a, some other very useful applications for--mares that you can't figure out or get under control if you can give them the drugs and shove them down and let them go in the--what when they rebound off of the--treatment, they, they'll have a fertile phase and so, like the same thing happens with women when they get off the pill, they, they have, they can have twins if--

SMITH: Mm-mm, mm-mm, hum. What are some of the challenges--I'm getting a little ahead of myself with but since we're talking about the med-- medical aspect, what are some of the challenges that are current in, in veterinary medicine with--the horses, what are the--major issues that, that vets are--and researchers are dealing with?

FALLON: (clears throat) well a couple of things that, that son Luke and I--dealt with, with the Timoneys not us solely but--the, the, the two of us have--worked with John Timoney in particular--at two-thousand, two-thousand-one, we started seeing a bunch of, maybe a little before, clostridial diarrheas now tetanus is a clostridium, botulism is a 01:09:00clostridium, and gas gangrene to organism's a clostridium, that's a group that lives in the soil--some of them live in the intestine of the horses (clears throat) tetanus and botulism do. So, so's the odd one, clostridium, you've heard of C.diff infections in the hospitals?

SMITH: Yeah, yeah.

FALLON: That's clostridium difficile and causes profuse diarrheas in people who are compromised from being stressed in the hospital (clears throat). It's a scourge (clears throat) we talked to John Timoney and we had it on some farms and it hit some newborn in the first twenty- four, forty-eight hours of life and they're very fragile. They're not too sick, but they have a profuse diarrhea, and if you can support 01:10:00them with enough fluids, they do pretty well and a little antibiotic coverage (drinks and clears throat) when (coughs)--John Timoney, I called George Lewis and he was at Fort Dietrich, Georgia retirement. Said there was a fellow named Brad Stiles (clears throat) who would help us; they have all these clostridia stock piled there at Fort Dietrich (clears throat) but 9/11 happened about that time and Doctor Stiles got called away, because they didn't know what was coming with after 9/11, if we were going to get, have--if they were going to poison the water with botulinum--

SMITH: --yeah--

FALLON: --it wouldn't, wouldn't take much to poison Lexington--I mean a thimble full would poison the community, it's, it's that potent--and 01:11:00that's scary--

SMITH: --mm-mm, that is--

FALLON: --that, but--these things are there, and it's fascinating, but- -anyway, John Timoney got a toxoid (clears throat) which is not exactly the same as a vaccine but it's a poison, or the toxin that the organism makes and it's denatured so it (clear throat) doesn't produce any disease. Well we use that on some of the farms that had this problem and it, it seemed to work very, very well--not a hundred percent but it, just pretty much shut it down and--they also get salmonella infections especially in our medicine clinics that Hagyard has, that Rood and Riddle has and--both clinics have had problems with salmonellas which 01:12:00are like typhoid fever--at the University of Pennsylvania they had terrible problem with it, and--John Timoney made a b--a vaccine in this case that was properly called a bacterin--that we use on the farms that had been affected the year before and they've had no cases. But this is--with that organism, you can't tell, things are cyclic, so, in this case, one swallow, one swallow doesn't make a summer, so--

SMITH: --oh okay--

FALLON: --we'll, we'll see--what happens with that. But that--

SMITH: --of course--

FALLON: --that's fun--

SMITH: --the one problem I'm, I am the most aware of is the MRLS. Did you--were you involved in working on that?

FALLON: Not working on it, I'd certainly saw some cases. I didn't work 01:13:00on the research--

SMITH: ---oh yeah, okay--

FALLON: --I don't want to comment too much on that (clears throat). What--the research that was done--at least presented to the world, that we have a handle on the problem and Kentucky is safe--from the commercial standpoint. I do not think that caterpillars are the sole answer, but--

SMITH: --I have heard that, I--

FALLON: --the year that happened, there was--tremendous--white clover bloom in April and it looked like it had snowed across some of the 01:14:00pastures, very unusual, that same, same year. And--it makes you wonder if things--we also got fungal fungi of, of bloom or production on the pastures (clears throat) you can't isolate all this stuff, or prove it, but the tent caterpillars were there and I came home one Sunday afternoon about the first of May, oh this was about to hit it's height, and there was a dead--yellow-billed cuckoo lying in the driveway, and you don't usually see them, they're mid story birds, you don't see them on the ground, but--I came in the house and fixed myself a drink I wonder what these things eat. I looked it up and they eat as many as a hundred tent caterpillars a day, the little birds.

SMITH: O-o-o-h, Hum!

FALLON: So, I called up Jack Bryans. We took the bird over to the Gluck 01:15:00Center and gave it to Peter Timoney and David Powell--I don't know what happened to it. It might still be in the freezer over there (both laugh), but--and I, that, that doesn't really prove anything but it was kind of fun--

SMITH: --yeah, yeah--

FALLON: --if a bird can eat a hundred and it doesn't do anything to, that's, that's their normal diet, and--why should a few of these do so much to a horse? (clears throat) but the birds' equipped to handle it.

SMITH: Right, right.

FALLON: But, you, you know, that's--that'd be a nice way to start a lecture, you might get a laugh out of it.

SMITH: Mm-mm. Did a lot of your--clients--or I guess your practice's clients suffer--from, from that particular?

FALLON: Yeah.

SMITH: I mean did you have--

FALLON: I d--I don't know who suffered the most, what, what clients 01:16:00but--it, it was, it was widespread but--I don't think individual farms didn't have so many, but it was, it was terribly widespread.

SMITH: Yeah, yeah I know--Miss Chandler's talked about Mill Ridge got hit pretty hard--Oops! Okay, I'm going, I'm going to change gears and we may talk some more about some of these--medical--issues, but--

FALLON: While, while we're changing, will excuse me one more time?

SMITH: Sure! Sure, let me hit pause here.

[Pause in recording.]

SMITH: All right, back on. Let's talk some more about some of the clients that you had over the years now--I know that Mill Ridge was one of--your first?

FALLON: Well--

SMITH: You came in the fifties and--Mill Ridge wasn't, was created what? '62?

FALLON: Well it (clears throat) that was an--outgrowth of Mr. Headley's 01:17:00so Alice came back up here in (clears throat) sixty-three--or sixty-two or three? They weren't here then because Mike, when Mr. Headley died, Mike--Bell was there, so they w--they were back up here, but she didn't start that farm until about '62, so I don't know when she start.

MRS. FALLON: Were you working for John even before Alice started that farm?

FALLON: John--

MRS. FALLON: --Bell--

FALLON: --no--

MRS. FALLON: --John Bell--

FALLON: --no, I didn't start to work there on a--large scale until '72.

MRS. FALLON: Okay.

SMITH: That's Jonabell?

FALLON: Mm-mm.

SMITH: Okay.

FALLON: I, I was going to Dixiana (clears throat), Hagyard Farm--doing, doing the----------(??)?--you have to get established first, and--Bill 01:18:00O'Neal was--(coughs) kind enough to entertain me at Bwamazon, I did most of the work at Bwamazon from almost from the get-go, from 1958 or nine on--and I did a lot of work, I started to do most of the work in Dixiana which these were not big operations but they--were very nice operations and--I always got to go to--Clarkland Farm which was with John Marr which is now Nancy and Fred Mitchell and that was always, doing work around Mr. Headley's, Barbara Hunters I did most of the work there, for, her mother was alive at the time, Mary Hunter--then 01:19:00I was going every place else, doing backup work for Dr. McGee, Dr. Davidson, and Uncle Charlie, and--it didn't really sort of--take hold until, you know, it takes a while to get your feet wet (clears throat) I, I was probably sixty, sixty-one before I was really developing the clientele, but so many people were nice to me--Duval Headley at Manchester Farm, which is right behind Keeneland? Mr. Headley's nephew--and later on Big Sink which was E.V. Benjamin, I can't tell you all of them.

SMITH: Hum. Did you have a favorite?

FALLON: No, I couldn't say so.

SMITH: Okay.

FALLON: I liked them all and that--of course Henry White, but I really didn't start to do Henry's work until probably '58, I have been out a couple of years, but--

SMITH: Now, did your uncle work for Mr. White, is that right?

FALLON: Not on a large scale?

SMITH: Okay.

FALLON: But--we all did some work there. I may have started with Henry earlier than that, but--I don't think I started the first year, but, maybe the second year.

SMITH: So how did, how did you establish yourself, just, just--

FALLON: Li--like, like anything else--I don't think he'd mind me s--using him for an example, Walter Zent started riding with me, oh, about 1965 and--after a year or so, we were standing outside the office 01:21:00and Walter said he thought he'd like to do this and he was working at the University of Kentucky at the time, at the veterinary Science Department, working for Jack--and I said, "well, I don't know, let me go ask the powers that be," which at that time were Hagyard, Davidson, McGee, and Uncle Charlie came out and told me to tell Walter that he was hired--[phone rings]--and--I told Walter he was--he was hired, and- -he said "Oh! What am I going to do?" and I said, "Well, just wait and see, you know, you put your mark here and see where you are a year from now," and in a year, within a year Walter was--had as much as he wanted 01:22:00to do, but he, he'd already gained some recognition and expertise with from riding around and stuff--

SMITH: --right--

FALLON: --he hit the ground, hit the ground running, so--

SMITH: Now when you worked for these farms, were you working primarily with the farm managers (coughs)? Is that who would call you if there was a problem, or--

FALLON: --yes. Sometimes the owner.

SMITH: Okay.

FALLON: At Barbie Hunters at s--Barbie was always present and Luke Combs which was not a large operation was usually around--John Marr, Clarkland, Nancy Mitchell's father had, had clients but he also had some mares of his own (clears throat).

SMITH: Are there any particular cases from those early years that you remember?

FALLON: I got myself in trouble with some salmonellas again and--Jack 01:23:00Bryans kind of got me out of trouble, he made a, made a vaccine and-- gone! It, it--

SMITH: --hum. Was this something in the mares, or the foals, or--

FALLON: I think it lived in their--probably the mares' intestine (Smith coughs)--excuse me--and--probably was in the soil, and it gets into the foals and makes the foals very sick, with diarrhea and a fever, and we always wonder and--if we have carried it, because I'd had it on two different types but they were on--on different farms and you wonder if you--have carried it over there yourself, if you go--and we don't know for sure and thank goodness but--I have to admit that we might do that.

SMITH: Yeah, well, unintentional with it, what else could you do?

FALLON: Yeah.

SMITH: Yeah. But tell me a little bit about Mill Ridge. Now your father--was still around when Mill Ridge was, when Alice started Mill Ridge.

FALLON: Mm-mm.

SMITH: And she had inherited, basically inherited a few brood, broodmares and--and then started boarding horses, that's how she described it.

FALLON: Mr. Headley had given all of his children a nice mare or two, and--that, that, that's about all she had, and--she got some clients and--because of--who she was and who she is--people started sending her horses and--

SMITH: Now you, you were her vet for how long?

FALLON: Oh up until five or six years ago and Stewart Brown started 01:25:00doing it--he's in our practice.

SMITH: Ge--when--watching Mill Ridge grow, what can you, what are your observations on how it, it went from a real--relatively small operation with a few people to a--a fairly successful farm? What were some of the things that--made it work?

FALLON: Oh s--a lot of, a lot of hard work and cooperation and I, Alice was on the ball. She, she worked three-hundred-sixty-five days a year and---------(??)--she was up not all the time but ear--early she was up when the mares foaled and--of course she couldn't do it now, it's too much, but--like a lot of the horse people, they'd be out wading around 01:26:00in horse manure in the morning and then they'd, they'd get cleaned up and go to the races in the afternoon and look like a million dollars, well they clean up well (Smith laughs) but--now that's--she, she worked hard, she's smart! A, a good horsewoman, a good, good judge of horses- -and, and enjoyed some--nice connections in, in the horse people. Well, they all help each other most, most of the time.

SMITH: What--so basically you cared for all of the horses--

FALLON: --mm-mm--

SMITH: --all of her horses.

FALLON: Mm-mm.

SMITH: Okay, and not just the reproductive--aspect of it?

FALLON: Oh at the outset we, we did, did everything, yeah.

SMITH: Okay, now you were telling me that you--helped with 'Sir Ivor.'

FALLON: Huh, I can remember where the mare was when we examined her for 01:27:00pregnancy. The barn's gone, but it was right off New Circle Road, back on the old part of the farm. 'Attica' was the mare, but--like I can remember pretty well where she was and I'm sure, I'm sure I've got that right. It might, it might have been later, it might have been from Mill Ridge--I apologize, scratch--

SMITH: --oh, it's okay--

FALLON: --scratch that. I remember examining 'Attica' in that barn; it might not have been 'Sir Ivor' that, that she was carrying.

SMITH: That she was carrying. Yeah. What were some of the other horses that, that she had that you would have worked with?

FALLON: Oh, I don't know--

SMITH: 'Nicoma,' she talked about.

FALLON: Mm-mm. Very nice race mare--

SMITH: Were you involved at all in the breeding selections? Did the vets get involved with that?

FALLON: hum-hum, huh-huh.

SMITH: Okay.

FALLON: But that, that was--that was--I don't--

SMITH: --thank you--

FALLON: --less than one percent if at, if at all.

SMITH: Okay.

FALLON: That, that was all their doing.

SMITH: Yeah, you just helped deliver and care.

FALLON: Mm-mm.

SMITH: Okay. Did you get, did you develop a pretty good eye for a good horse yourself?

FALLON: Why I'd like to say so, but (Smith laughs)--she probably got a better one--Priss.

SMITH: Yeah, yeah, hum. One thing, I, I understand that you introduced Alice to John Chandler. How did you get to know John Chandler?

FALLON: He was riding with me. He is, you know, veterinarian, he was riding around with me and he met her that way.

SMITH: Mm-mm. Now, did he come here to practice?

FALLON: I think he came to, to ride around and we put him to work.

SMITH: Okay. So he came to learn.

FALLON: Mm-mm.

SMITH: All right, all right. But he was already a vet--

FALLON: --mm-mm--

SMITH: --an equine vet by the time--

FALLON: Mm-mm.

SMITH: Okay.

FALLON: He worked at New Market for two or three years--

SMITH: --okay--

FALLON: --then came over here.

SMITH: You've--worked with a lot of vets. Who were some of the people that you've, other vets that you've mentored or--

FALLON: --oh--

SMITH: --at your practice is?--

FALLON: --my goodness!

SMITH: I know that's probably a, a countless number.

FALLON: Huh--m--mentoring'--, I don't know whether I want to apply that term to myself but--it, it sounds like you're giving yourself too much credit, so I'd, I'll--

SMITH: --okay--

FALLON: --but I (clears throat) wo--

SMITH: Or your practice, who's come to the practice?

FALLON: I, I would--like to say this much, that with the--through the 01:30:00courtesy of my clients (clears throat), I got to take a lot of the young vets around (clears throat) and show them how to do things, especially (clears throat) to examine mares and--and just do a lot of hands on, and--the--the clients have always been like that, you know, with very valuable stock and it, they put their confidence in you and this person you have with you and that's--terribly complimentary and--cordial.

SMITH: The practice has grown--

FALLON: --ha!--

SMITH: --pretty phenomenally since--since the seventies, is that what we've talked about?

FALLON: I don't know when it, when it took off but, yeah--probably li--a little later even, near the--into the eighties and--

SMITH: --and when did you move out to Ironworks? I think you told me that, that surgical wing was built out there first, the surgical facility?

FALLON: Yeah, in the early eighties.

SMITH: Okay.

FALLON: (clears throat) We'd been on the Newtown Pike from about sixty- nine to--eighty-two, or whenever we moved to Ironworks.

SMITH: Mm-mm. What, what made the change from a much smaller organization to--isn't that the largest, I, I've read, in the country now?

FALLON: Probably in the world! I'd, I'd, I don't know, but, but--I think probably certainly in the country. I, I don't know, it just--I don't think anybody can tell you. It just happened but--I, I would hope that our, our thrust is service and integrity, and--being nice to people. 01:32:00Our, our employees and helpers--which--makes them want to be there, the, our hiring--technique, in the past, people like I was telling, Walters Zent would come along and they'd like to stay, and they'd stay, and some others would come for a while and go back home, wherever they came from to go practice there. But, that's how a lot of the growth took place.

SMITH: Mm-mm. Has the demand for equine vet services grown?

FALLON: Huh, well there're, there are more horses (clears throat) and we 01:33:00do a lot more to them--

SMITH: --okay--

FALLON: --a lot more techniques.

SMITH: Okay. So that's just sort of, the more advances you make, the more you, you feed the need for--

FALLON: --yeah--

SMITH: --okay, okay. So now it's this fairly major corporation with, what did you said, sixty vets, did I read that?

FALLON: Sixty plus, mm-mm.

SMITH: Okay. Is there any, you have various wings on the surgical and reproductive and fertility, is there any specialty--with the, the company, or is it just--

FALLON: --mm-mm--(clears throat)

SMITH: --with--

FALLON: --(coughs) on--I want to say unfortunately (clears throat) but not so, really because we de--developed these areas of specialty and--a tremendous expertise in surgery and medicine and ophthalmology- 01:34:00-whatever areas of specialty you can think up, we probably got somebody who is specializing in it, acupuncture--what, there is several of those in the practice that do that, but--it's--the demand in this they're enlarging the faci--the surgery facility, which you saw and the medicine facility is kind of stable right now, but--as new techniques and more horses--more people.

SMITH: Mm-mm. What type of--(Fallon coughs) are most of the clients from Kentucky?

FALLON: Pardon?

SMITH: Are most of the clients then from Kentucky, or do you serve farms around the country?

FALLON: (coughs) Not so many out of state--

SMITH: --okay--

FALLON: --the, the clients, but not too many farms--

SMITH: --okay, okay--

FALLON: --however--when, when Paul Thorpe was with us he made a lot of trips to Ireland--for Coolmore and Doug Byars did too, he made lots of trips abroad to--Dubai, and--

SMITH: --to, for what purpose, to--

FALLON: --look at problems--

SMITH: --Doctor McGee was talking about that as well and--that he did a lot of traveling, is that--

FALLON: Uh-huh, he was, he was going to look at blood stock, I think to, to approve a stallion of something like that.

SMITH: Okay, okay. And--is--

FALLON: --a lot of them--

SMITH: --is that typical though for a vet practice to, to be sent to deal with problems around the world, or throughout the country? Or is that--

FALLON: --no, I, I'd think it'd be m--more, more peculiar to the, to the horses and, and not just to our practice but to, to the other equine practices they would be making trips like that.

SMITH: Okay, okay. What other countries have comparable equine services, veterinarian services?

FALLON: Huh, New Market, England (clears throat)

SMITH: Okay.

FALLON: South Africa too and--Australia have always been--are-- comparable areas, and, and France--

SMITH: --oh, okay--

FALLON: --and, to some extent Italy--

SMITH: --Okay--

FALLON: --But--

SMITH: All right, all right. Let's see, a couple of the things we've talked about before there. I kind of jump around on my list here. 01:37:00One of the things we talked about with Doctor McGee was the breeding practices. How does that, and we talked about how the vets, for at least for a time period and to some extent still do, are present during a breeding process, for lack of better term--and that's not as prevalent now but how would you describe a breeding process back in the fifties when you first started to one now? The difference in the operation, and the difference in just how it's even handled?

FALLON: I'm not (clears throat) I, I don't attend so much now but then I would think it's all about the same--

SMITH: --okay--

FALLON: --(clears throat) except in the fifties we were (clears throat) doing something now (clears throat) that now they call re-enforcing the cover? In those days they called it impregnating the mare where 01:38:00we would catch the tail end of the ejaculate and put it back into the mare through the cervix, either in a capsule or through a syringe (clears throat) and pipette in, in the--(clears throat) fifties (clears throat)--we'd--were suturing the mares with--silk worm gut which was a monofilament which instead of poly-filament the, the--if it's twisted like a wick, it acts like a wick, and it pulls infection down and so doesn't do well, it's----------(??) and the monofilament is one strand and you know, slick so it doesn't act like a wick, so they heal better. But we would, we had to go to the breeding sheds and put in something we called the cross stitch, which was a retaining stitch, so that the 01:39:00stallion wouldn't rip everything out.

SMITH: Oh!

FALLON: That, we were using umbilical tape in those days, which was- -like a wick and we had to put it in and take it out, otherwise it would cause infection, but then we started using, we got heavy--gauge monofilament suture material, so we put in permanent cross stitches and so, we don't have to attend those things like we did, but--and they reinforcing the cover or impregnating mares is sort of out of vogue, it's--[phone rings]--n--not required, they're able to take care of things themselves, but--rarely will it be done if the, the stallion 01:40:00has some other problems--Vigors I think probably had a, a rent in his diaphragm or something that--he couldn't cover well, and he'd back off the mare and often times he wouldn't leave anything inside with, had to be there, try to be there to recover what we could (clears throat), but--not so much of that, except in cases, string cases, but--otherwise some of the--big outfits like Gainesway and (clears throat) Coolmore have a resident vet that, that is in attendance--

SMITH: --oh, okay--

FALLON: --to--perhaps for legal reasons as much as medical--

SMITH: --oh, okay--

FALLON: --so--

SMITH: --okay--

FALLON: --I'd, I, I don't know what all their thinking is, but--

SMITH: But it's not as common for--a vet from your practice to b--be a part of the breeding--

FALLON: --not, not--

SMITH: --operation now.

FALLON: --not like it used to be.

SMITH: Okay.

FALLON: Mm-mm.

SMITH: Okay. You'd mention Gainesway before, did you work for Gainesway as well?

FALLON: Oh early in the late sixties and--

SMITH: --okay--

FALLON: --(clears throat) early seventies when--

SMITH: Now, who owned Gainesway?

FALLON: John Gaines.

SMITH: Okay, that's what I thought.

FALLON: They make dog food.

SMITH: Right.

FALLON: Gaines--John's father--Clarence, had--Gainesway subdivision, had a farm there. Well, you know, a lot of changes in fifty years, with the way things have grown, then John--I don't know whether he ever owned that part of Keeneland where the library is and the party barn 01:42:00now? But he had stallions there--

SMITH: --oh okay--

FALLON: --in, in that big barn, and--I was doing work for him there, with Joe Taylor (clears throat) and then we (clears throat) started putting the mares under lights out on Paris Pike where Gainesway is now.

SMITH: Mm-mm--he was one of the first to use lights, is that what you told me?

FALLON: Mm-mm.

SMITH: Okay.

FALLON: But we told him about it (Fallon laughs). Alice Chandler was too and Henry White.

SMITH: Okay, okay. And that's still a common practice.

FALLON: Yeah.

SMITH: Yeah, yeah-yeah, hum, hum. One of the things we talked about- -when we were talking with, with Doctor McGee was some of the changes in Thoroughbreds over the years. We were talking about how Jackie Thompson had said in his interview that we were breeding the feet off of, off Thoroughbreds? Do you want to--we didn't get on tape that was-- 01:43:00he said, told us something about the hooves being different colors?

FALLON: Oh! (clears throat) the, the quality of the hoof? That's kind of hard to--describe, you know, a hoof that's stark white, almost, you would think would be the (clears throat) of inferior quality, whereas one that's more ivory colored--e--even though it's white, would-- probably be a better quality? And the darker the hoof pro--probably, not necessarily, the better the quality. But as you get an impression by looking at them--if they're, we call them shelly, if they're, look like they apt to breakup--like your finger nails, you know, the--but-- 01:44:00(clears throat) Jackie Thompson would, would have been--(clears throat) probably a better critic than a veterinarian, a farrier would be--

SMITH: --oh, okay--

FALLON: --because he was looking at, that's all he did all day, but--I think I p--may have told you before (clears throat)--Mr. Headley-- Alice Chandler's father was--very conscious of the horses feet--insisted on--horses with, with good feet that he bred to--and--he, he knew then the importance of, of that quality. So, d--d--that, its has been largely ignored (clears throat). A lot of horsemanship's been neglected, I think, and they, people looking more at the paper, when, 01:45:00when they're mate and they don't--I don't know that everybody goes and looks at the stallions, most people used to, before they would breed their mare to that horse they would go and look at him, and not just pick him off, off the paper, match up pedigrees or--money to see--a lot of that goes on, you know, they, they breed to (clears throat) the most expensive mare to the most expensive stallion so you get the most expensive--but that, that's not the way you're supposed do it.

SMITH: That's not same as breeding the best to the best.

FALLON: That's not the same, it's breeding the most expensive to the most expensive--

SMITH: --okay--

FALLON: --not necessarily the b--they are not necessarily the same, you know.

SMITH: Has that kind of practice--had a negative impact on the Thoroughbred as a whole? Yeah, I've read that, that--

FALLON: --I, I, I would say so but (clears throat) I'm, I'm speaking 01:46:00from a--older veterinary viewpoint to--relegating himself to doing broodmare work, and stop doing a whole lot of surgery years ago, so-- yeah (Fallon laughs) now you might ask why a very good breeder you know, those types of questions.

SMITH: Okay. But in terms of what you've--you've--delivered and, and, and cared for over the years you haven't--you can't see any obvious differences--in the Thoroughbred from the late fifties to a Thoroughbred today?

FALLON: Not so much with the ones (clears throat) I was dealing with--

SMITH: --okay--

FALLON: --but I was in a--the very b--you know, I'd say privileged position with, working for nice people who've tried to do it the right 01:47:00way, and then not just--over produce or produce commercially.

SMITH: Did you ever have any situation where you were dealing with s--where you came across--individuals who were not treating the horses properly?

FALLON: Oh yeah!

SMITH: What did you do in those kinds of instances? Did you--

FALLON: --oh, you, you make suggestions but--there's only so much you can--so much you can do--and so--sooner or later you'll probably try to get away from those people, you know, because nothing is going to work, nothing is going to work right.

SMITH: Mm-mm. I, I was talking to someone who w--basically saying some of their owners push some bad practices on the people who are caring for the horses, don't always make the best decisions in terms of what's good for the horse, because a lot of new people in the business that 01:48:00don't really know horses, does that comment have any validity, or--

FALLON: You know, I, I understand what they're saying, but--Luke--had a, a little booklet that some in (clears throat) Mon--Montana wrote about Marcus Daly and--my grandfather had gone out there to work for Marcus Daly but this is also about the Haggins--and Uncle John Haggin, great uncle, worked for James Ben Ali there at Elmendorf, which was Green Hills at that time in 1900, but--I got sidetracked, I forgot where I wanted to tell.

SMITH: About the book that your son--

FALLON: Oh, Oh! The, there was a comment in that book which was-- quoting, I have forgotten which, which one of the people at---------- (??) that (clears throat) on nobody has been able to--with all of their money, to corner this thing yet, raising horses in 1900, and (clears throat) the same attitude--somewhat obtains today and that--somebody who's been very successful in some other area thinks this has to be pretty easy, you know, when, when they look at the people who are all kind of--in dirty clothes and messing with these horses, and--the, they think they can--money-whip it and--it just hasn't been done yet, and-- 01:50:00and I don't think--isn't that nice?

SMITH: Yeah, yeah it is. You're dealing with an animal, yeah.

FALLON: Mm-mm.

SMITH: Yeah,--are no givens. What are some of the challenges you think breeders face today?

FALLON: Well--

SMITH: --either from a medical standpoint or an industry standpoint--the people you would of worked with?

FALLON: I, I, from a medical standpoint, aside from the things that come up on a day-to-day be--whenever new disease is gonna present itself (clears throat) or some old disease that's re-emerged--no, nothing 01:51:00too much new there. Those things come and go, but--we were in this overproduction phase back in the eighties, early eighties we've, we've somewhat out of that now but--look at the sales going on for two weeks--

SMITH: Some pretty hef . . , good prices for some of those mares!

FALLON: Yeah. But that's not supposed to be what it's all about. It's supposed to be about raising the best horse and winning the triple crown, all that stuff.

SMITH: Well--what about the use of medications on horses? Have you been involved in, in any of those discussions on no horse's being--

FALLON: It's, it's kind of out of my realm.

SMITH: Okay.

FALLON: But--I am aware, you know, what you're talking about and (clears 01:52:00throat)--

SMITH: And of course vets have been involved in a lot of those issues.

FALLON: Talk to her nephew, Johnny Ward--he, he'll give you a lecture.

SMITH: (laughs) Okay, okay. He is on my list to interview so, okay.

FALLON: Ask, ask him how m--how (laughs)

SMITH: Okay, okay. Well I don't suppose you ran into that a whole lot in the reproductive end--

FALLON: --no--

SMITH: --as much as people do on the racing or the--

FALLON: --no, no, no--

SMITH: --sales.

FALLON: Not, no.

SMITH: Okay, okay. I've only got a couple more questions written down here, but I'm sure there is a lot more you can tell me--and I guess- ---------(??) one question that, that, that I always try to get people to reflect on is what has it meant to you to work with horses all your life? What has your being an equine vet meant to you?

FALLON: Oh my goodness! Well, an equine vet--the--it has been a 01:53:00nice trip, hard work but a lot of fun! And--a l--lots of terribly interesting things to, you know, explore.

SMITH: Mm-mm. The challenge.

FALLON: Yeah! My goodness, and you know, the, the contact with-- wonderful horses and people.

SMITH: Would you change anything?

FALLON: Not really.

SMITH: Yeah. Well what about looking at your family practice, I mean it's grown from--what you remember as a child with your grandfather and your uncle to this. What is it like to, to look at a practice this large, and know you were part of making it happen?

FALLON: I don't know, it is, it's just nice to have been--been part of it, it's--

SMITH: Are you happy th--proud of how it's grown? Or do you feel like it might be--

FALLON: Oh you, well why you have to say you're, you're, you're proud of it, but--of course and everybody probably thinks--things were more fun when they were younger? But I'd, I really think we had more fun than they have nowadays, but that might not--they'll probably say the same thing.

SMITH: What's your son say?

FALLON: Huh--I'd, well I think what because of the way he was raised and what he was raised with--he might be inclined to agree with me a little bit, but--you know, when he gets my age looking back on it, he'll probably say that he had a lot more fun than the young people are then, 01:55:00but--

SMITH: Is there a lot of competition--in, in this state with--I know there's Rood and Riddle is a big organization out there?

FALLON: That's--that's essentially the, the big name competitor (clears throat). There are--lots of individuals or groups of two or three that--we used to be like ourselves you know, for three or four, or as many as five when I came. We, we would like at Hagyards to--present-- the practice as being there for everybody to use, for them as well as us and--somebody, somebody has to do it--I, I don't think you can get all 01:56:00of these individuals--one or two, or three together (clears throat) to build such a facility--they're probably working like they are because that's the way, how they choose to be, instead of with a larger group. But there is no--big problem or--competition with them and--I hope that--our attitude is that, if they use us and I, I, I think Luke would tell you all this, that no attempt is made to take their client and, and that they're treated fairly and like we treat ones, ones in our group, you know, that's, that's difficult to--represent, but--that's 01:57:00what you would hope to represent.

SMITH: Mm-mm. Well it seems like there should be plenty of work in Kentucky for--equine--

FALLON: Mm-mm, mm-mm.

SMITH: --veterinarians in central Kentucky in particular.

FALLON: Yes, it seems to be.

SMITH: Mm-mm, mm-mm. And of course there are the other breeds as well. As we have more--quarter horses in the state than anything.

FALLON: Yeah, I think so.

SMITH: Yeah, yeah, better than other breed. Okay, well, I don't have any other questions right here, other things will probably come up and when you had a chance to listen to the tapes there may be some--stories or--

FALLON: --yeah--

SMITH: --things you want to add--[phone rings]

FALLON: I might correct a few of the things I've said (laughs)--

SMITH: That's okay, we will elaborate on a few more things, though there was one thing we talked about--that McGee brought up as well and that was the five o'clock, five o'clock club, and that was still going on when he came into the practice, right?

FALLON: Oh yeah!

SMITH: So that tradition has been going on since what? The twenties?

FALLON: I don't know when it started, but my grandfather certainly the, encouraged it and so did Uncle Charlie, and that was a, a, a meeting place.

SMITH: Well, Doctor Bryan was talking about that in the, in the genealogy as well--

FALLON: --that--

SMITH: --he said you had--priests came and--

FALLON: --yeah--

SMITH: --it was just a--was it always a pretty diverse group?

FALLON: Oh and they were on Short Street and the county jail was about four bloc--four--buildings down the police coming off their beat would- -they'd stop in, and--(laughs)

SMITH: So you basically were the local gathering place.

FALLON: Mm-mm, mm-mm.

SMITH: Now did that continue up until the move to Ironworks?

FALLON: Well, just about, yeah.

SMITH: Oh! Well that's, that's pretty neat, actually. Do you remember any particular stories from the 'five o'clock club'?

FALLON: Not, nothing extra special. I don't--Ted Basset's father, Mr. 01:59:00Basset he was Ted too, would come in there and the, the fellow who did the compounding, we didn't have a pharmacist then, he mixed all the remedies (clears throat). Mr. Basset would--borrow a dollar or two from him and he'd come in the next night and Harry Shaffer was the fellow and said, "Where is my money?" and the, they'd carry on, it was a game.

SMITH: Yeah.

FALLON: Just, just stuff like that. I, I don't remember any particular- -legends or stories of--

SMITH: Okay, okay. I'm sure there were some out there, and I might get, get to--find out about them as I interview other people, so.

FALLON: Mm-mm.

SMITH: Okay, I'll go ahead and stop this for now, I think.

[End of interview.]