Interview with Thomas P. Embry, November 16, 2007

SMITH: Okay, This is Kim Lady Smith, and today is - and I am recording very hot here. What is today? November 16th --

EMBRY: --sixteenth--

SMITH: --two thousand and seven and I am at the home of Tom Embry, in Lexington, doing a second interview with him, for the Horse Industry in Kentucky Oral History Project. All right, I think we're okay. I'll c -- I'll look down at this periodically to make sure we are doing all right, so, not trying to be rude (Embry laughs). Okay! Well, when I was here last time -- that is just really recording bad, huh, let's see. Okay. When I was here the last time we -- we talked about all kinds of things.

EMBRY: Oh yes.

SMITH: But -- one of the things that came up was -- Korea, that you had -- been drafted to go to Korea. Now you went in what year -- was that? Do you remember, is it fifty --

EMBRY: Fifty -- one.

SMITH: '51. Now we talked about you'd spent eleven months in Korea.

EMBRY: Yes, it's right.

SMITH: What do you -- do you remember where you went when you first got there, where you were sent?

EMBRY: I went in Pusan.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: That's where we got off the -- ship at -- and we was on the TP boats going in from the ship.

SMITH: What was your -- I don't know the military terminology, but what was your troop or your p --

MRS. EMBRY: --rank--

SMITH: -- yeah your rank and, and the group you were with.

EMBRY: I was a PFC --

SMITH: --okay--

EMBRY: -- when I was going, during that time. I just had -- got out of basic training at Fort Knox, and went to Seattle, Washington, and we stayed there and took training. I was, you know, armory, I was a tanker.

SMITH: We, was there anything particular about being a tanker, I mean would -- did you do --

EMBRY: --yes--

SMITH: -- all aspects of --

EMBRY: --yes, you, you, but see, you d -- at first you take eight weeks of infantry training. Then you take eight weeks of tanker training which you got to learn how to shoot the cannon gun, you got to learn how to drive it, you got to learn how to read the map, the, the terrains and ----------(??) there's so much more in -- when you -- in a tank and you are just, when you are just a regular infantry, you know.

SMITH: Did you choose to work with tanks, or was that just your assignment?

EMBRY: No, they assigned me to it.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: I know I didn't ask for it -- you know, just, after I got through my eight weeks of basic, they just went through the line and pick out different guys and -- you're going to be in a tank company.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: And that's the kind of way it was, you know.

SMITH: Was that okay with you?

EMBRY: Yes! Sure it was! I, oh Lord yeah, I, I'd rather been in something like that than be on (laughs) on foot all the time. Because I could hear many little bullets hitting the tank and you know --

SMITH: --and not hitting you inside--

EMBRY: -- and not hitting me, you know, maybe if I run up on a mine, but I never did run up on a mine; but I, we had tanks to hit mines and it'd blow, you had to stop your tank, then you have to join the infantry you know --

SMITH: --right--

EMBRY: -- just is what kind of what that's all about too.

SMITH: That never happened to you?

EMBRY: No, not no, not no mine, no, I, I was lucky enough to kind of get passed it, not knowing but, because they covered them, you wouldn't know if you was a mine there or not, when you're going it just --

SMITH: --yeah, no way of knowing--

EMBRY: -- just -- just like anything else, you just lucky, lucky to get back (laughs) you know, I seen so a lot of people shot, a whole lot of people killed, but I was just lucky, I didn't, it didn't happen to me.

SMITH: Mm. Did -- now I know that we -- you told me about the incident where you, you went, you took your tank to save a couple of men who --

EMBRY: --yes--

SMITH: -- and that, was one of them was from Lexington.

EMBRY: Mm, I went to school with him. I --

SMITH: Did you serve with anyone else from Kentucky?

EMBRY: Not was in my -- tank company. He was in a infantry right across the road, he was in the seven division and the seventeen regiment infantry, and I was in the seven division, seventeen tank company.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: And we was right across the road from one another, you know, and which as I say the guy that -- Bill, that went to Korea when I went to 00:05:00Korea, but four or five years, when it was, three or four years ago --

SMITH: Mm-mm.

EMBRY: -- ----------(??) about what I say? He was in the seventeenth infantry division right across the road, you know.

SMITH: Okay, okay.

EMBRY: And you know, it just, we got to see each other and we kind of stayed together when we was in Korea, you know --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- when we went to different things, you know, and --

SMITH: --so when you, you landed in -- Pusan, right.

EMBRY: Pusan, yes.

SMITH: Pusan. How long before you saw action?

EMBRY: Oh there was action going in!

SMITH: As soon as you landed?

EMBRY: That's what I'm trying to say, yeah, yeah, see, they were shooting at us when we was on the TP boat got off the ship --

SMITH: --oh okay--

EMBRY: -- going in, you know, and --

SMITH: --you went right into it--

EMBRY: -- we went, anyway, they were shooting at us then, yeah!

SMITH: Well, that had to be scary!

EMBRY: And -- well, sure it was! And like -- artillery got to coming in to -- you know, f -- whoever they called in and let them know what 00:06:00was happened, they could tell where the, they were shooting from, like the planes and that thing, and when they ----------(??) be to whatever they were shooting our artillery got on them, so that made them stop shooting at us until we got in to land, and so before we go about got in to land, we got on buses and things and --

SMITH: --oh okay--

EMBRY: -- went to this camp you know.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: And then --

SMITH: --now, did you stay at that camp --

EMBRY: --yeah we stayed --

SMITH: --the entire eleven --

EMBRY: -- at that camp all that day, maybe about two or three days processing you know, getting our -- gears together and you know, and everything, and being assigned to our tank and all of this, you know, before we go up on the front line, but they were shooting from back, 00:07:00you know, you know -- what I mean. And so we moved out at night going to the front line, it was, I think about twenty tanks, and we just creeping a long way behind one another and the only thing you had on your tank was what you called little cat eyes, like a parking lights you know, and you'd just creep right behind one tank, you know, you (laughs) what made it funny though, when we came back from off of the front line -- to Pusan, getting ready to go on the R&R you know, and it was daytime and you (laughs) look over there you seen all them, I asked somebody, "did we come up that, this a way?" you know, (both laugh) he, he just said, "that is the way we came up." I say, "Oh Lord!" If one tank went over, all of them would went over see, because you were just 00:08:00following right behind --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- you following two little -- lights.

SMITH: Oh gee!

EMBRY: And (laughs) --

SMITH: If you could only have seen what -- how dangerous it was huh.

EMBRY: O-o-h mercy! Yeah, you know, it was a drop you know, we just going around on a mountain, you know, you would, it would -- the ------ ----(??) was something else.

SMITH: How long were you at the frontline before you got to go back?

EMBRY: O-o-h mercy, let me see! You were rotate with thirty -- six points, I kind of figure how this work, but -- I went up on front let's see, April -- huh -- April of -- fifty-two, that's when I went up on the frontline, and I -- and when I come back off of it -- hm -- it was 00:09:00almost April again, I think it was around about March or something like along in that.

SMITH: Oh! It was a long time.

EMBRY: Yeah, but see I had, we was waiting for -- it was the airborne crew was supposed to relieve us and they didn't get there on time, so some of us had to stay a little longer before we could rotate, you know, that's the kind of the way that was.

SMITH: Was there a lot of action on the front line?

EMBRY: Oh Lord yeah, yeah, plenty of action. Yeah you (laughs) a whole lot of action and more or less see, we supported fire for the infantry -- we were dug in, I would say -- oh -- say a quarter of a mile really 00:10:00from where the infantry was in front of us you know. We were dug in with the tanks and -- we supported fire for them when they get ready to -- make a move.

SMITH: M-m-m. So you felt a little safer than the infantry.

EMBRY: Mm?

SMITH: You felt a little safer than the infantry.

EMBRY: Oh Lord, yeah, it was something else. You know, it just, I don't know I -- I just think about it now, you know, you's, you, because I know what war's about, you know, I just -- and some is lucky, and some is not, I mean, you know, some make it and some don't, you just -- but the main thing about, I guess what I had in my mind about the Korean War, we was fighting for a reason.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: And some of these wars now you look at and you, you wonder what 00:11:00is the reason, you know.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: You, the North they took the South, and you know, if they had bought it, if they had did just that, you know, they come in the right way, I, yeah I put it this way, you know, I, it wouldn't be as bad, but to take somebody's land you know, and --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- I, I guess I could think about even now here, how people took somebody's land, you know, just, yeah, but I remember you know, like I say, I, when I was a kid there's a whole lot of that was going on, you know, down through the south, people would take your stuff and chase you out and you wouldn't know who in (laughs) the hell had done it they'd have a hood on their face, I mean, so much ----------(??) started, you know, and, and I just when I, when I was there, I could give you a reason to be there.

SMITH: Yeah, yeah.

EMBRY: And you know, and I -- when that man is, first name, Iraq, when he took Kuwait --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- and they chased him back, hey that was good! I b -- hey! He didn't have no business --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- taking it? You know this, then, and -- and, like I say, and I just, when I think about what they done to him! Hey! I don't know, every time you look up you, you're fighting somebody but what you fighting for, you got, it'll be, in, in certain reasons, but like I say, beyond me too, I guess, to a certain extent, but --

SMITH: --but you felt good about what you -- were doing in Korea.

EMBRY: Yeah, you know.

SMITH: If you can feel good about war (laughs) you know it's --

EMBRY: Huh? Yeah, you know.

SMITH: Yeah.

[Noise interruption.]

SMITH: Whoops!

EMBRY: But -- it's almost like the Second World War with Germany --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- went around taking people's stuff, you know --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- and we jumped in there, hey, get back on your side, you don't know, don't be no, just, and, and we done the right thing.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: And, and we --

SMITH: So when you came off the front line -- t -- for R&R, where did you go?

EMBRY: Went to -- Osaka.

SMITH: Oh, okay. What was that like?

EMBRY: In Japan, in Japa -- it's kind a -- Tokyo's up here and this town down here (laughs) that's, that's the best way I can tell you. I, I looked at it on the map sometime, you know.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: Yeah, it's a place, just, you know, it was a peaceful place though, Ja -- well, which? Tokyo was -- I mean Japan was peaceful anyhow, you know --

SMITH: --at that point, yeah--

EMBRY: -- because we went in through Tokyo when we went -- got off the ship.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: But it was a little closer to -- Korea. I believe that way --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- Osaka was.

SMITH: How long did -- was your R&R?

EMBRY: Five days.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: Five days and five nights (laughs). You just go there and -- have a good time. You have -- see all the shows, you know, have a few drinks and you, you, you didn't get that -- beer that, you know, didn't have no alcohol, in it, you could get some with alcohol in it (laughs), that you could feel (laughs).

SMITH: Yeah (laughs), and then --

EMBRY: --hey--

SMITH: -- you go back.

EMBRY: Oh yeah. That was the ba -- that was the saddest, that's the worst part about it -- say to -- leave the war and go where it's peaceful there and then have to go back to the war, you know.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: I think about these guys here. A whole lot some went AWOL, a whole lot of them commit suicide --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- see, and I know why, because they bring them home and all this kind of thing, and then they got to go back to that, and they know, 00:15:00hey, you know what time it is, you -- and once you get in there, they should let you stay in there, this for my opinion, what I would rather have done, you know. But --

SMITH: Mm. Did you have to go back to the front lines?

EMBRY: Oh yeah! Yeah. I didn't have but about -- o-o-h -- about six week left over there during that time no anyhow, but I guess I wanted to get away from it anyhow, you know.

SMITH: At least you thought you did.

EMBRY: Yeah, just to get away from me, you know, because constant day in and day out, hey, and, you know, somebody shooting at you and (laughs) you don't know when they're going, hey, hey, you know, it's, it, it's not a toy, I mean people don't understand it, you know, your life is on the line -- all the time.

SMITH: Were you ever wounded?

EMBRY: Mm?

SMITH: Where you ever wounded?

EMBRY: No!

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: I wound myself one time. (both laugh) They got to shooting and the sh -- the shells started coming in and I jumped in that tank and hit my leg on (laughs) on the crazy bone, on the chair here. Oh boy! I'm telling you the truth I not (laughs) but not from no bullet or you know --

SMITH: --oh, okay--

EMBRY: -- nothing like that, you know, no, I (laughs) Oh gee!

SMITH: So six weeks later you -- left Korea?

EMBRY: Yeah, I left Korea and I come to Tokyo again and we process out of there, I think was -- two weeks and we flew to Hawaii, and we done 00:17:00some processing there you know, got some old clothes and everything, and then we flew on to ca -- to Oakland, California, and from Oakland, California, we flew to Camp Asbury, Indiana, and (laughs) but on the way to, to Camp Asbury, Indiana, a motor caught fi -- on fire on the plane --

SMITH: --oh No-o-o!--

EMBRY: -- and we had to land in Missouri. Saint Louis, Missouri, Yea- a-h!

SMITH: Well that'd be scary.

EMBRY: O-o-o-h I'm!

SMITH: Almost home and the plane catches on fire.

EMBRY: Oh mercy, I (laughs) I, I, I say this is terrible done been all through this and got to get on the plane thinking you're going to get home and the plane just might blow up (laughs) and I says, oh mercy! It was -- in the plane I think there was about sixty or something sail -- soldiers and sailors all on there, coming to Camp Asbury, Indiana to 00:18:00be discharged.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: Well, you're not discharged, you get a separation paper. I wasn't discharged until -- '59.

SMITH: Really.

EMBRY: And I had six, six years of -- reserve.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: And I got separation papers. That was all. I was still in the service, still uncl -- belonged to Uncle Sam.

SMITH: If they wanted you.

EMBRY: Mm (laughs).

SMITH: If they needed you, huh?

EMBRY: Yeah.

SMITH: Oh! Well it sounds like -- you did more than your duty, it sounds like you were --

EMBRY: --oh I--

SMITH: -- in the thick of the battle most of the time.

EMBRY: -- I, I, I, you know, somewhere in there you -- I don't know, I did is figure out that way -- because I just done what I had to do you know, you just don -- you just do what you, you got to do, and --

SMITH: --is there any particu --

EMBRY: -- I was just one of the lucky ones to -- made it back, you know.

SMITH: Was there any particular battle that you remember more than 00:19:00others?

EMBRY: Not really, because I never came to -- no hand-to-hand --

SMITH: --okay--

EMBRY: -- combat with the enemy.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: I was in a tank.

SMITH: Right.

EMBRY: That's the reason I -- was glad that they choused me to be a tanker, you know, as I had, when I thought about it, 'cause -- but the infantry you know, if I had been in infantry I might have come to hand-to-hand combat wi -- with the enemy or something, like Joe ------- ---(??) did. But I was always kind of back, supporting fall --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- you know, we had a thirty caliber, we had a fifty caliber, we had seventy-six millimeter and all this was being used to support fire, to help the infantry you know, all that, you know.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: So --

SMITH: So when you came home, did you have any trouble adjusting to 00:20:00being back?

EMBRY: Mm?

SMITH: When you came home, did you have any trouble adjusting to being back, did you feel different?

EMBRY: Yeah, you couldn't sleep.

SMITH: Really?

EMBRY: Yeah, you couldn't sleep, you -- I mean I w -- it was lon -- I had to go to the doctor and get some, they gave me some pills, to kind of settle me down because you, you can't rest too good, you know, at least I didn't, you know, and I know it's whole lots of them didn't too, you know, and, and a whole lots more of them when they, they didn't get the right help because some of them d -- would drink and do different things, you know, because the first thing they told me, don't drink on this medicine.

SMITH: O-o-o-h.

EMBRY: And I didn't, and it helped me, because I was hyper, I was just thew, thew, thew, I was just, you know, and -- I listened and after a 00:21:00while --

SMITH: Did you have to stay on the medicine very long?

EMBRY: Mm?

SMITH: Did you have to stay on the medicine very long?

EMBRY: No, no, I was just think I was on it for seven or eight months or something like that, and I, you know, kind of got all right, because, like I say, I didn't do no drinking on it, I, I kind of done what -- I was supposed to do, you know, and I know just even now for now, alcohol and medicine don't work, I, I, you know, I just -- you, you just, when you're taking medicine, you, you got to just take, take medicine --

SMITH: --that's right--

EMBRY: -- and there is a whole lot of people they just like to drink, or all this, and they think, well, a little drink, this ain't going to hurt, you get, mm-mm.

SMITH: Hum-hum.

EMBRY: It kills it, it just, it just, it just kills it, it does --

SMITH: It keeps it from working.

EMBRY: Yeah, I had a cousin I told the same thing and, and -- he wouldn't listen, and just took him away from here. But -- you know, e, e, ef 00:22:00-- my back, I had two back operations, and w -- Doctor Bessett told me say "Now, you ain't going to get over this in two or three months -- it might be two or three years." But he told me what to do and not to do, and I didn't do it, and you know, I, my back been in pretty good shape for, really, well we and I had no problem with my back.

SMITH: It didn't take two or three years?

EMBRY: No, it took about mm -- about, what, a year and a half, something like that?

MRS. EMBRY: Mm-mm.

SMITH: Mm, mm-mm.

EMBRY: Yeah! Yes ma'am, I'm going to tell you now, you, it just -- and, you know, you couldn't lift nothing, you couldn't do, you know, you here was, you got, you know; I tell you one thing I did, I -- you know, used 00:23:00to, up in the loft get you a fork and get a bale of hay or something out you know, and I did that for up straw up there and got that straw, boy I had a sharp pain I say you don't -- I thought about what he told me, he told me (laughs) don't do nothing like that, you know.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: Yeah.

SMITH: So you didn't do that again. (laughs)

EMBRY: Heck No-o-o! No more! No.

SMITH: Well, let's talk a little bit about your recent trip to Korea, you were showing me the scrapbook when -- I was here the last time. Now how did that trip come about?

EMBRY: What's that?

SMITH: How did you -- when you went back to Korea, a few years ago --

EMBRY: --o-o-o-h!--

SMITH: -- how did that trip come about?

EMBRY: Okay, that was a -- they just sent me a letter --

SMITH: --who is they? --

EMBRY: -- I was picked now, what, what you call that? Huh --

MRS. EMBRY: The signing of the arm -- armistice.

EMBRY: Yeah!

SMITH: Arm -- okay.

MRS. EMBRY: Fiftieth --

EMBRY: --yeah--

MRS. EMBRY: -- year.

SMITH: Fiftieth anniversary, okay.

EMBRY: And I'm just picked out --

MRS. EMBRY: --the signing of the armistice--

EMBRY: -- to go to b -- to be there you know. I guess they just wanted 00:24:00to a bunch of -- veterans that was in Korea and send them a letter letting them know, you have got a trip to Korea, free.

SMITH: Now was that the -- the, the Army, or the Department of Defense, or -- just the government?

EMBRY: It was the gov -- army.

MRS. EMBRY: The ----------(??) government of Korea.

EMBRY: The government of Korea --

SMITH: Oh, okay, the government of Korea --

EMBRY: -- did send --

SMITH: -- sent you, okay--

EMBRY: -- the Korean government did this --

MRS. EMBRY: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- yeah.

MRS. EMBRY: They did it.

EMBRY: Yeah the Korean government should be in, in a -- and just a list, a whole lot of people there was a list, I don't know, from every state.

SMITH: Well how many people went? How many people were there?

EMBRY: About two hundred and some, wasn't it? I think.

MRS. EMBRY: No, wait.

EMBRY: It might have been more than that, I don't -- how many was on that airplane? -- well see now, I don't know. They come from everywhere, from everybody that was in to the Korean War with the United States all the nations.

MRS. EMBRY: ----------(??) all the nations.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: It just wasn't the United States --

SMITH: --right--

EMBRY: -- it was the -- all other nations, I, I can't think what --

SMITH: Didn't the United Nations --

MRS. EMBRY: Mm-mm.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: Yeah it was, how many was it, twenty some different nations?

MRS. EMBRY: Huh, your name was one of four hundred -- four hundred.

EMBRY: Yeah.

SMITH: Hum.

MRS. EMBRY: Something like that.

EMBRY: That was a -- okay this was just --

MRS. EMBRY: --from --

EMBRY: -- from the United States.

MRS. EMBRY: Yeah.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: Four hundred from the United States, and some of those people came from England -- I don't can't remember all the people, I know the Turks was in there with us -- Canada and --

SMITH: --yeah, yeah--

EMBRY: -- I, I don't know flags every which way, it g -- it got all the flags in there were from different countries --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- ----------(??) See -- that's another thing, we had all these other countries helping us to do this --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- because they know we was right, that's another thing, that's, that's what's makes it good, when other people know you are right for 00:26:00doing something, they'll pitch in and help --

SMITH: Absolutely.

EMBRY: See?

SMITH: Absolutely.

EMBRY: But --

SMITH: So did you -- what made you decide to go?

EMBRY: Go where?

SMITH: To go on this trip. (Embry laughs) Did you want I -- Hah!

EMBRY: She did!

SMITH: Your wife (both laugh)? Okay.

EMBRY: Yeah my wife told me, "Yes you are going!" Because I talked about it, yo -- occasionally you know, about Korea.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: Huh -- it -- the people were so nice and -- you know, other than say -- fighting your enemy, when you was back in Pusan, or if you get a chance to go to one of those little villages, because around where we was at, it'd be a whole lot of little villages around, and people were just nice, you know, they were just -- they were just nice, I, that's 00:27:00all I can say about them, you know, they -- oh lord, they feed you and they didn't have nothing.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: Because the war, you know, it done took everything, you know, when-- when you're in the war --

SMITH: --yeah, yeah, oh yeah! --

EMBRY: -- you know, you, you, you're fighting with a short stick trying to f -- try to feed your family and all this and another but, what little rice they had you, whatever they had --

SMITH: --they'd share--

EMBRY: -- they would share with you, if you wanted, you know, and like ----------(??) lot of places we used to take our c-rations and give it to them, you know, and -- but -- they w -- you, you just -- oh Lord they were nice, and this nice when we went over there. She couldn't believe. I just tell her how nice they was. And they're the same way now, when we went over there, we just -- they just -- Hum.

SMITH: Now, when you went back, did you go to some of the areas where 00:28:00you had fought?

EMBRY: Yes ma'am I've seen some of it, yeah. We seen some part of Pusan where we come in at and --

SMITH: How did that make you feel to see it?

EMBRY: Mm?

SMITH: How did that make you feel to see it fifty years later?

EMBRY: Well, you (laughs) you wouldn't know it.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: Because they, it, it looked like Chicago -- (Smith laughs) looked like any big city we got here, you know.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: It just -- oh it's amazing!

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: Oh Lord yeah, oh geez, so all of them found a new place you know, and then the -- oh! oh it's of, it's amazing what they done done!

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: 'Cause see? When in the north had, oh, just took everyth -- all the way across there --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- they done took, took everything, it was, and we had to come in there and push them, throw them back out --

SMITH: --so everything was pretty --

EMBRY: -- to the thirty-eight parallel.

SMITH: -- destroyed.

EMBRY: Mm?

SMITH: So most everything was destroyed.

EMBRY: Yes! Yeah, and like I say, they didn't have that much no how, I mean you know, they were staying was kind of shacks anyhow you know, but it wasn't -- oh Lord, y -- y -- Hum! Automobile you s -- you and me you just, when we was there -- automobile y -- it was kind of rare you know, rickshaws, bicycles and -- the -- what's the name the -- I can't think of what you call the other thing but anyhow, there was a whole lot of people but everybody was walking or running --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- the, the people walking so fast you're almost running, you know, and moving, you know, it just -- but Lord you go there now (laughs) it's amazing, it was, oh lovely!

SMITH: Now you were there what, about a week? Is that right?

EMBRY: A week, yes.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: Yes, it was just -- oh just so lovely I'd -- I thank her everyday 00:30:00for (laughs) pushing me (laughs).

SMITH: The -- now was, I think you said there was one person that you remembered that went w -- that was there as well? That you had, had worked, had fought with?

EMBRY: Bill?

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: Bill --

SMITH: Was that the only one that you d --

EMBRY: Yeah, hav -- he was the on -- really the only one that I knew from -- from then, you know.

SMITH: Did you know he was going to be there?

EMBRY: No!

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: No ma'am I didn't. He didn't know what -- we didn't know, they didn't know who's going to be there you know.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: Just ----------(??) he is in Owensboro anyways, and he, and he passed too.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: I think it might be since you'd been here last? Was it?

MRS. EMBRY: Huh-huh.

EMBRY: Before then?

MRS. EMBRY: Before.

EMBRY: Okay. Yeah, we got a letter from -- his daughter--

SMITH: --oh, okay--

EMBRY: --letting me know that you know, he had passed. That was nice, because we used to keep in contact with one another after we got back --

SMITH: --right--

EMBRY: -- you know, yeah.

SMITH: Right.

EMBRY: Oh man! Yeah, yeah, Lordy.

SMITH: Well that must have been a nice trip --

EMBRY: --it was--

SMITH: -- despite the long --

EMBRY: --it was real --

SMITH: -- air travel, it's uh --

EMBRY: --it was an experience (laughs) that I never want to have again but it was a experience that I'm glad I got through with.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: And, you know, so it just -- that's the reason I can, I guess I can talk about the, somebody else's war, because I've been there I know what it's all about.

SMITH: That's right.

EMBRY: See?

SMITH: That's right. I don't think anybody really can until they've been there. You can read about it, you can watch it on TV --

EMBRY: --yeah--

SMITH: -- but --

EMBRY: Today I was looking ----------(??) soldier he -- went AWOL. He 00:32:00was in Canada, you know, on TV this evening and they're gonna court martial, he say, "Well, at least I be alive." Yeah --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- a young boy, twenty-three, twenty-four years old, "at least I be alive," because he, when he got there and seen what was happening, you see, just, this is another thing, when you kind of see what's happening and it look like you ain't going nowhere that's another thing about -- war. When you're just, in one spot, and ain't moving nowhere -- that bothers you.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: We dug -- I had a trench on my tank to dig foxholes, or dig a 00:33:00hole there, anything, and we moved, you know, like we done pushed the enemy a mile away or whatever to half a mile or whatever, then we keep moving, move up, dig a hole, get another ----------(??) --

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: See? You're moving, you're pushing the enemy, moving, you ain't just setting there in one spot and you know --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- it ain't going nowhere, you know --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- you, you're moving and that's another thing, what make you give that energy to --

SMITH: --yeah -- motivate you --

EMBRY: -- keep getting up --

SMITH: -- yeah--

EMBRY: -- yeah, motivate you to keep getting up, yes.

SMITH: Yeah, and now the wars are a little different.

EMBRY: And like I say, until we got, I guess, we in about three miles or so from the Yalu River at the thirty-eight parallel to then be kind of dug in, we stayed there for a while and just boom, boom, boom, just 00:34:00stay there and shot the cannon, you know, and keep the enemy from coming back again, you know. And every now and then they -- slip through down here on the left flank, maybe come to the right flank, where them Turks were at, they didn't, they didn't come through there (both laugh). They thought they was crazy because they was head hunters. They'd catch them and cut their heads off and hang them on their belts.

SMITH: Oh my gosh!

EMBRY: Really! Up the ----------(??) they were something else. They, yeah, they were (laughs) wild --

SMITH: --gee--

EMBRY: -- wild looking fellows, got the bald head, carrying on --------- -(??).

SMITH: Huh!

EMBRY: Drinking that wine, they had their wine and they have a party out there. You hear them laughing and talking and somebody would be playing some kind of good times, some kind of music or something, yeah!

SMITH: Really!

EMBRY: That's right! I'm tell -- hey.

SMITH: And what was going on in the American troops.

EMBRY: No -- 't's right (laughs), they were doing, we was on duty, we wa'n't making no noise.

SMITH: That's right.

EMBRY: Wa'n't making no noise, nope. (laughs). If we had f -- flares out in front of us -- and they, know somebody walked through there and hit that flare and pop up, you know, boy you see almighty people getting the guns together then, oh boy! And it could be anything, old rabbit, or coon, or possum --

SMITH: --right--

EMBRY: -- any old animal could trip a flare you know --

SMITH: --that's right--

EMBRY: -- make it pop. (laughs)

SMITH: But you never know.

EMBRY: And another thing I'll tell you, people don't know, old crickets they used to holler, it's been summertime anyhow you know, they be making all that noise, wep-wep-wep-wep-wep-wep-wep-wep, when he gets quiet, something out there.

SMITH: O-o-o-h.

EMBRY: But you know, don't have to be a human though.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: It can be a animal you know, or something like that, but when you -- and then -- you, you get your eye popping and looking and carrying on and, and that's the darkest place in the world though (laughs) I swear, oh God, I hate it, Koera's a dark place and a cold place.

SMITH: Really.

EMBRY: I'm tell --I -- you almost -- you know, used to get down on your knee, I, I just think, I was born and raised in the country, and -- you know, at night you'd be going across the hills and carrying on, might be v -- visiting your kin folks and you had half mile to walk across fields and things and you see something and you really don't know what it is, you get down a little low, you can tell what something is, you know, but you standing up, it might be a tree stomp or, you know, anything!

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: And you, what in the world is that? And you stand up and you, but you kind of get down a little low and you can see what it is.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: It's amazing! You know and you, how this thing is but, but Korea you couldn't get down low (laughs) and see nothing with it --

SMITH: ----------(??)

EMBRY: -- all over dark, well you was in a valley.

SMITH: Yeah, yeah.

EMBRY: Just they done build all in those valleys.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: Let -- I don't know, she got the picture and everything in that book. We went up in that thing, it's up on a hill, and you can get in that and it takes you st -- on up in --

SMITH: --on up, yeah, okay--

EMBRY: -- and you, you can look all over, and it's and it, and that was a beautiful sight.

SMITH: Yeah, it make you feel like you've -- you accomplished something --

EMBRY: --yeah --

SMITH: -- in some way.

EMBRY: Yeah, yeah, if, it, it was good to -- it was good to go back I guess everybody, you know, we've talked about it I guess flying back home and they -- all the fellows and everything you know, yeah some, you know, so everybody go by ----------(??) lots of them took their wives with them too you know, a lot of the guys did, you know.

SMITH: Yeah, kind of bring it full circle, I guess.

EMBRY: Yeah Lord, yeah.

SMITH: Well, I've got to kind of do a -- one eighty here and get you back to Kentucky and back to horses and out of the military, other um -- do you think the military had a -- being in the service, being in Korea, had any impact on, on how you worked with horses or how you worked with people?

EMBRY: Oh no.

SMITH: ----------(??) you --

EMBRY: No, I've had this way before I went in, see I was with the horses --

SMITH: --okay--

EMBRY: -- when they called me.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: Yeah I was -- I was trying to make a race rider when they called me (laughs). Yeah.

SMITH: Now you, I think you told me in the last interview that you weighed what a hundred and eighteen, a hundred and fourteen pounds?

EMBRY: No, ----------(??)--

SMITH: -- when you went in to the army.

EMBRY: Yeah! I weighed a hundred and fourteen pounds.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: Yes ma'am, got weight, I don't know who it was told me say, "Well you won't have to worry about going nowhere, you don't weigh big, you ain't big enough, you don't weigh enough, you got to ha -- you have to 00:39:00weigh a hundred and twenty or better, you know." That colonel, either a colonel or a captain one, after they got through examining me, here the paper say you're in the army now. (Smith laughs). I say, "What?" I say, "I don't weigh enough!" He say, "you're the fittest man I got in here." He did! (Smith laughs) you know, he told me, which I was fit, you know, riding horses and everything --

SMITH: --oh yeah--

EMBRY: -- you know, I was in real good shape, you know.

SMITH: Yeah, I'm amazed at how strong and athletic you have to be to be a, a rider.

EMBRY: Oh sure! A jock is all, hey, he w -- jocks is really, really fit, I mean don't get me wrong, you, you know, oh anybody riding horses you know, like that, you, you just, you're fit all the way, you know.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: I -- I was thinking about a -- picture I took and look like I'd been lifting weights. And, and this other guy he -- weighed two 00:40:00hundred and some pound and I, my chest was thew, just as big as him because I'm at --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- pulling on a horse when he be pulling you, you know, riding a horse ----------(??) --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- you know, I didn't weigh but a hundred -- twenty-five or twenty-seven pounds, you know. But you, you just, you're fit! I --

SMITH: --well I k -- I, I was talking to -- Doctor Coplan. He said you were work -- both working together breaking yearlings --

EMBRY: --mm-mm, yeah phew Lord yeah! --

SMITH: -- about that time.

EMBRY: Yes ma'am!

SMITH: Now where were you doing that together?

EMBRY: At the Elmhurst Farm

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: T. O. Campbell owned a farm out there -- a man by the name of Alex(??) Gordon --

SMITH: --okay--

EMBRY: -- was the farm manager.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: And my dad, he was in charge of training the horses back there 00:41:00during that time.

SMITH: Okay, okay, that, that's explains. He was saying that -- he was telling me a story about how, and I'm, I'm not sure I'm going to get it right, because I don't know the terminology well enough, but, that you would take the horses and that you w -- I think he was saying run them, when you weren't supposed to?

EMBRY: Yeah, (laughs), yeah, what he's saying is (laughs) when we would go to the fields, to gallop them, exercise them, and we'd get away from the barn we had to go down to the bottom where some hedge balls, trees was and could nobody see us from the barn, we'd get down that bottom, we'd do a little racing down there (laughs).

SMITH: Oh, okay.

EMBRY: We'd go down that hedge, boy we would be flying down through there (Smith laughs). Oh boy! (laughs).

SMITH: I think he said your dad could tell you'd been doing that.

EMBRY: He -- well yeah, they come back hah, hah, hah,(laughs) the horse done, that tells you what you've been doing, you've been running them, 00:42:00you see, he'd be breathing all hard. Oh Lord! Oh mercy! (laughs)

SMITH: Now you were pretty young then, about what, twenty --

EMBRY: --mm-mm--

SMITH: -- years old, probably?

EMBRY: Mm?

SMITH: You're about twenty years old at that point?

EMBRY: Ah, really about nineteen, I guess.

SMITH: Yeah, okay.

EMBRY: I ----------(??) --

SMITH: Just a kid.

EMBRY: Eighteen, eighteen or nineteen, and doc was, he was about a year or so older than me, you know, everybody ----------(??) be doing that (laughs) that's before I went in the service --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- so I had to be about nineteen years old.

SMITH: So now your dad, he -- he was working there, at the farm, at that time, but now your dad had been working with horses all his life, right?

EMBRY: All his life, yes ma'am.

SMITH: Wasn't he a t -- was he a trainer at one point?

EMBRY: No, he was just more or less a trainer at, more or less a farm, not around a racetrack more or less, he was --

SMITH: --oh, okay--

EMBRY: -- kind a, a farm trainer and, and breaking horses.

SMITH: Okay, okay.

EMBRY: And -- you know, he had been exercise boy, groom, he done been everything in, in the horse business, you know, he -- gosh really, he --

SMITH: --Mr. Coplan said he was just a really fine horseman, really --

EMBRY: --oh, he w -- yeah--

SMITH: -- understood the horses.

EMBRY: He was, he was, he was -- he was a horseman, you know, he just, he just knew what to do with the horses, I mean I guess he's half way taught me, he taught me too, not no half way. He taught me -- more or less everything I knew, you know, how to ride --

SMITH: How about how to care for a horse?

EMBRY: Oh Lord yeah! Yes ma'am, oh sure he, that's, that's kind of the first thing they teach you, is to care for the horse, you know, how to feed, how to d -- treat wounds and different things, you know, and how to put bandages on, and all this kind of thing, you know, you, you had to know all this because you -- all the time you didn't have no doctors around to do a lot of things back there during that time. You had to, horse hurt itself, you had to be the doctor, you know.

SMITH: Mm-mm, mm-mm.

EMBRY: Yeah. Most time you had a doctor around, more or less you, unless you give them shots he was, more or less, give all the shots and different things like that, but, otherwise you, you had to do most of the work yourself, like, like had the grooms and everything, what you call the groom, or the exercise rider, whoever, you know. And you did almost all the w -- the work on horses, firing and blistering them, you know, well not, the doctor fired them but after the doc get through firing them you had to do all the care taking --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- you know, you was kind of the nurse. You --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- and you, you know -- and everything. You had to do the painting, changing the bandages, and everything, and putting them back on, pick his feet and paint his feet see you know, you had to just -- when you see if his feet's getting soft you maybe take turpentine, 00:45:00make his feet a little harder, where it won't be all crummy and just different things you know, that you just had to do for the horse, to keep his --

SMITH: --and you just basically learned that from your dad or from --

EMBRY: --no, my dad --

SMITH: -- people who worked --

EMBRY: -- my dad --

SMITH: -- thank you.

EMBRY: -- he -- got more or less was my teacher, but I had a whole lot of guys really were my teacher, don't get me wrong, old, older mens took youngsters and kind of taught them what was, how to do everything, you know, so it wasn't -- say this your dad or your uncle or whatever, 'cause all, all my people back there, they was horse people, my great uncles and -- ever -- everybody more or less in my family was on my -- daddy's side was horse people.

SMITH: Who were some of the people your dad worked for?

EMBRY: Well --

SMITH: --do you remember?--

EMBRY: -- let me think now. He started, well, actually, he started on 00:46:00what you called W. R. Estill's Farm back there then where I was born there.

SMITH: Mm-mm, was that Briar Hill? Is that where? --

EMBRY: Mm?

SMITH: Briar Hill?

EMBRY: Briar Hill, yeah, that farm there, because his -- my great grandparents they stayed on that farm, back there during that time, and he used to come over there to be with him and my grandparents stayed up on -- the hill from them, and so it was kind of a, just a family thing around, around the farm and everything, you know. And he just always been around horses because well, his dad -- had horses to work with --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- you know, he had a little farm and he raised tobacco and corn and everything so he had two horses --

SMITH: --okay--

EMBRY: -- and all that back there during that time, you know, so we kind of, were just with horses all our life, you know.

SMITH: Mm-mm. Now his name was Clarence, was that?

EMBRY: Clarence Hayes

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: Yeah.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: And -- he, and he, like I say, he, he rode horses and --

SMITH: --did he work at the tracks?

EMBRY: Oh yeah!

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: Oh yeah! (laughs). Well, when he got kind of grown, my granddaddy, his daddy, you know, that farm work got a little rough.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: So (laughs) he kind of went to the racetrack and -- he kind of stayed there, you know, he'd, he, you know, cutting corn, cutting tobacco, plowing, you know, it was, farm work was something else, I, I come up with it myself --

SMITH: --yeah, that's righ--.

EMBRY: -- I did all of it --

SMITH: --that's right--

EMBRY: -- when I was a kid, and -- you know, sun up and sun down (laughs) in the summertime, you know.

SMITH: So he liked the tracks.

EMBRY: Mm?

SMITH: So he liked working on the tracks, it's better than the farm.

EMBRY: But he, oh yeah! Yeah! He was coming out running the racetrack, 00:48:00well when I first went there, I kind of walked hots you know.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: But I knew how to ride before I went there, because I was breaking yearlings right on that same farm, Estill's farm -- back there then, I started breaking yearlings when I was eleven years old, and I always had a pony when I went --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- first when I little kid, so I always could ride you know.

SMITH: Now, did you ever go to the track with your dad? Did you --

EMBRY: --mm-mm, yeah! --

SMITH: -- work together on the tracks?

EMBRY: I worked with him, I worked with him.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: Worked, I worked with him when, he was with Woody Stephens.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: Yeah, he worked with Woody Stephens for -- I don't know, five, six years, you know.

SMITH: What did he do for him? Was he an exercise rider, or --

EMBRY: --he was a gr -- no, he was a groom for Woody.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: He rubbed a horse called 'Halt,' it run fourth in the Derby, he run a filly called ' Lady Dorimar' going to Black Eye Susan, he more or less rubbed most all Woody's good horses back there then --

SMITH: --oh, okay--

EMBRY: -- and this was -- yeah! This was back in the -- forties.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: Yeah, this was in the forties, and -- yeah he and, and like I say, before Woody, he worked for a man called Jack Howard--

SMITH: --Jack Howell? --

EMBRY: -- Jack Howard.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: He had a farm out on the Bryan Station Pike back there during that time, I can't think what the name of it and -- he went to Florida with him, and this was back in the thirties, when I was a kid, you know, and I wasn't going on the racetrack, I was --

SMITH: --yeah, right, you were on the farm--

EMBRY: -- he, and I was on the farm as a kid, but he was on the racetrack then, you know, but he'd go to Florida, worked for a man named Will Caskey, he had a farm on the -- Winchester Pike, he was farming next to Briar Hill Farm. I can't think what his farm name was, I, hum. But 00:50:00anyhow, he -- he worked for some people that win races and they had a pretty good horses, Dandilly, that's what he, the old man Caskey had a horse called Dandilly and -- he won stake races, wound up being a stud, and -- I don't know, you know, on the racetrack you work for so many different people. I tell you why, because it was like a vacation on the racetrack, to go this place, that place and the other place --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- you just picked your places each year where you might want to go, and you just tell the man, "I, I, I'm going away with so-and-so, I want to go to Chicago this summer," I'm going away "I'm going, I'm going to New York this summer," you know, and they understood it --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- because they changed around too --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- going different places, so as long as you was a good worker and a good horseman, hey, you didn't have no problem getting no job, see. So --

SMITH: Where did your dad like to work? Did he have a favorite track?

EMBRY: Mm?

SMITH: Where did your dad like to go? Did he have a favorite track?

EMBRY: Not really, but now he asked, used to like to go to New York --

SMITH: --Saratoga?--

EMBRY: -- yeah he w -- well, s -- Saratoga, Belmont Park --

SMITH: --okay.

EMBRY: And -- Aqueduct, any part of New York, he always loved New York, which now New York really was a great place to go, don't get me, it was, New York always been -- New York (laughs), you know.

SMITH: It was fun, huh.

EMBRY: Yeah, yeah always, New York always been New York, it been plenty fun in New York, you know. Yeah, he alw --

SMITH: Where did you like to go?

EMBRY: Me?

SMITH: Did you have a favorite place?

EMBRY: Huh -- I think California was, was one --

SMITH: --at Hollywood Park? --

EMBRY: -- one of my great places, California. It was kind of wild and 00:52:00back there then. I tell you another place though, Louisiana (laughs) New Orlean', I used to love that place, yeah used -- oh boy, I had plenty of fun in Louisiana. I had a good time, you know, until they -- I think what year it was, it was in the fifties, they had a whole lot of killing down there, people massing, they stopped people from massing you know --

SMITH: --oh--

EMBRY: -- for Mardi Gras --

SMITH: --okay--

EMBRY: -- and people was doing so much dirt and carrying on, you know, and that just, it just turned against me, I just turn you know, I -- just -- bothered me, because everybody was, used to be so happy you know; that's one time, all people in New Orleans would come together and just -- just have a good time, you know --

SMITH: --yeah, oh yeah--

EMBRY: -- just, hey, it was just, oh boy (laughs) oh it w -- you know, it, there's more different people down there I think than any state we got.

SMITH: Yeah, more diversity, --

EMBRY: Yeah --

SMITH: ----------(??) okay--

EMBRY: -- I'm telling you now you, you, oh you, you just, oh mercy!

SMITH: Did you go to Mardi Gras?

EMBRY: That like New York. Mm?

SMITH: Did you go to Mardi Gras?

EMBRY: Oh Lord Yeah! I used to be down there every year!

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: Go for the Mardi Gras, yeah, oh, I lo -- every year I was there. I leave here seem to think about Thanksgiving. I used to be there (laughs) Thanksgiving Day.

SMITH: Oh my!

EMBRY: Yeah, yeah for the last -- I went down there for about six years in a row!

SMITH: Now when would have been? The what -- fifties, sixties?

EMBRY: That was in the fifties.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: Yeah.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: That was soon after I got out of the army, I think I was, I've been there fifty-four.

SMITH: Now who did you go down there with? Who wa -- who did you work for down there?

EMBRY: I, with a guy by the name of Riley Dees.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: Riley Dees

SMITH: And were you an exercise rider?

EMBRY: I was exercise rider for about a year with him then he -- made me 00:54:00a stable foreman.

SMITH: Okay. Now he is from Kentucky? I think we ta -- I remember him from the last interview but I don't remember where he was from.

EMBRY: Who, Riley Dees?

SMITH: Mm-mm.

EMBRY: Yeah, yeah --

SMITH: --okay--

EMBRY: -- he is from here, he was from Kentucky. I'm trying to think a Miss B -- his wife Miss Bessie. I don't know she w -- was she a Lexingtonian or not but Riley, he's, he was, I know.

SMITH: He was, okay.

EMBRY: Yeah.

SMITH: Okay. Now were you ever treated, you know, in the south, were you ever treated any differently than you were at other tracks? Being black?

EMBRY: Huh, not around the racetrack, no, race, you know, racetracks always been a family and y -- everybody got along on a racetrack, I don't care what you was, Spanish, white, black, I don't care what you was. Everybody got along and anybody would do any favor for you, you 00:55:00know, just, you know, it w -- we had --

SMITH: --but you went off the track?--

EMBRY: -- but now you might step by the racetrack, you know, and you might see a little different in, in places back there then, you know.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: But around the racetrack, everybody got, yeah with -- oh that was, that's what made me like it so much, I guess. On the account of the attitude that people had back there during that time, you know, which I know what the world was about, but racetrack, hey you just -- it, it just a big family, I, just everybody got along and everybody just was happy, yeah (laughs)

SMITH: What did everybody do for fun?

EMBRY: Mm?

SMITH: What did you do for fun when you were working on the track?

EMBRY: Oh we had -- pool halls, you know, where we could go shoot pool and different things where (clears throat) but most time -- after we got through work, now we would go to town you know, if you wanted to, you know. Most time people go to town on the weekend, race tracker 00:56:00did. But through the week, you was running horses by the time you get through running horses, and doing just that and you know, be working all day long (laughs) you know, when you got couple of three horses in, usually all the day long doing something you know. By the time you get through that, and you go somewhere to get you something to eat, you may go, go somewhere and lay down.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: And but -- more or less on the weekend, race trackers would get dressed up and go to town, they might get in a fight or two or something (laughs) you know, they're just more like cowboys you ------- ---(??) to do.

SMITH: That's right, that's right.

EMBRY: Yeah, yeah --

SMITH: Head to the saloon, huh. (Embry laughs). Now was there a lot of drinking on the track?

EMBRY: Yes. People -- the old timers used to drink -- all the time but you kn -- and I say, wouldn't say all the time but -- they would have a drink but it never bothered, you couldn't tell that they had a drink 00:57:00or nothing. You'd never -- they never -- I don't know it just never bothered them.

SMITH: They never seem drunk.

EMBRY: They wa'n't drunk --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- no. They wa'n't, no they never staggered -- they never changed their attitude, nothing, you know, they go around the horses and --

SMITH: --never --

EMBRY: -- sit up on them and work and do the, hey, they just, it never bothered nobody, you know, and most thing would, really, when they -- a whole lot of dope came around --

SMITH: --when would that have been?--

EMBRY: -- that's kind of -- I guess that was more or less in the sixties, and people got kind, phew, had a hangover, you know, and everything, you know, but --

SMITH: --was that what, mostly marijuana or --

EMBRY: --yeah! --

SMITH: -- or harder drugs?

EMBRY: You know, you'd, yeah, they'd, yeah, marijuana, I guess cocaine, whatever, I don't know, I -- that wa'n't my thing no how, you know. I, now I'd used to drink a little bit now but, but the other stuff I couldn't, it wa'n't my bag I would --

SMITH: --and that caused problems on the track?

EMBRY: Mm?

SMITH: Did that cause problems?

EMBRY: Not a whole lot of problem but them guys they wouldn't look after the horse right, this is what it ----------(??) about you know, they, I don't know, see, I seen them they be high and go somewhere, half time when feeding time come they'd be somewhere, laying over somewhere you know.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: But the guys that'd drink they didn't, they didn't do that.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: They was up early every morning, and they're doing what they're supposed to do. It just -- and it --

SMITH: --now when uh, One of the things that Mr. Coplan was saying about your dad, he described him as one of the last of the great grooms, that --

EMBRY: --a, a great --

SMITH: -- one of the best grooms?

EMBRY: Oh yeah!

SMITH: That people who don't care for horses --

EMBRY: --yeah--

SMITH: -- the way some of the old timers in particular --

EMBRY: --yeah, he could --

SMITH: -- your dad?--

EMBRY: -- he could get one shining like brand new money!

SMITH: What, what's the difference now? I mean what, what's, why was he s --

EMBRY: People don't know what to do now, to tell you the truth. They want to use a whole lot of -- cosmetic stuff, and all that stuff, you know, and we never did, we never did use no hard soap to wash horses with. It takes all the oil out of their skin, you know, and things, you know, and a whole lot of time they didn't give a horses a whole 01:00:00lot of baths and things, they get a gunny sack and wet it, and go all over that horse, just keep going. I mean it took manpower, you know, it just took patience, time, it just go all over your horse, all over his head, all over everywhere, just take a gunny sack, take it out, and wring it out, put in water,wring it out again to go back just in about ten or fifteen minutes, you know, went all over his body, let him dry, get you a soft brush and -- and just hit him, you look back you can see the difference. See what I'm trying to say, I'm, and it, and it, it works today.

SMITH: Really?

EMBRY: It works today. But --

SMITH: Huh-huh. Do people do it today?

EMBRY: No! People don't want to do that today.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: They wants to -- spray this on him, and spray that on him, on, this, that, and other and I you know, show sheen, now, they got a thousand things now, put on them, make them sleek and shinny and made me think about we'd send one to be operated on, somebody done put some show sheen on him and they put him on the operating table, horse slid off. (both laugh). I'm serious! I'm telling you now, it's true!

SMITH: Slid off the table, okay.

EMBRY: (laughs) Yeah, had him shining though, but he was --

SMITH: --to go for surgery?--

EMBRY: -- slick as a whistle. Yeah Lord!

SMITH: I tell you when I look at the horses at the -- at either when they race, but particularly when they sell, I mean those horses are just -- they don't have --

EMBRY: --yeah--

SMITH: -- a spot on them.

EMBRY: Well see, you can just, like I say, you can just get you a gunny sack and just, get you a good bucket of warm water, put ----------(??). 01:02:00Yea --

SMITH: What are some of the other things that are changed in terms of, of caring for a horse that may be good or bad, or at least not as good, maybe as the way it was done in the past. What so --

EMBRY: Who?

SMITH: What are some of the other things that are changed in how people care for a horse?

EMBRY: Hey h -- I don't know, I -- but I can tell you one thing about horses at the racetrack. You should have a good bucket of mud.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: To paint a horse -- to pack a horse feet about every other day.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: Mud is one of the greatest thing that you can -- do in -- ha -- on anything. It's good for his legs, to draw fever out.

SMITH: Really, okay.

EMBRY: And people don't do things like that no more. Well they do, but they'll go buy some kind of what -- poultice, it's white, I don't know what's in it, they got, I know it's some kind of liniment because you 01:03:00can smell it. But -- liniment -- it ain't good for -- taking fever out.

SMITH: Yeah, okay.

EMBRY: I'll put it that way. Uh, it might draw a boil to a head --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- if you wrap a liniment with.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: But, if a horse got a fever, you don't need no liniment. You get some mud, mix it with some Epsom salts --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- and put that on a horse's leg, you don't have to, you're not putting nothing on it--

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: --it will draw. Put it on three or four days and now while you feel that horse leg be cold as ice.

SMITH: Really.

EMBRY: I'm telling you. But, it's the same way about horse's foot.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: A horse gets a fever in his foot, some ----------(??) work with feel the horse foot is hot, get you some mud, keep it in the horse foot. A whole lot of things go to a horse foot, go to the, go to human's feet, even now. My granddaddy used to (laughs) put, get some mud and put his foot in it!

SMITH: Oh really?

EMBRY: Really! He'd go barefooted and never had no foot problem, never had foot problem.

SMITH: Huh! And he went barefoot all the time?

EMBRY: And could go bare foot, no, he didn't go bare foot always--

SMITH: --okay--

EMBRY: -- but he could go barefoot and never have no foot -- all other people had foot problem, hey, I did the same thing, best thing in the world --

SMITH: --put it in the mud--

EMBRY: -- put your feet in some mud, go over the pond or walk in the mud and everything like get it all between your toes, you don't worry about no callous, no corns, no nothing. (both laugh)

SMITH: Well they do do mud --

EMBRY: --I'm serious now!--

SMITH: -- mud baths at spas, so, you know --

EMBRY: --no I'm serious! You know b -- you know b -- people years ago 01:05:00you had mudpacks, people what do they call it ----------(??) --

SMITH: --oh yeah, that's right, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah--

EMBRY: all this kind of things. I, I'm telling you, you know, the certain things like that, nobody, well they got it now, they just want to sell it, but it ain't got the right stuff in it.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: This all it is, it's just, you know, --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- I'm --

SMITH: When it comes to care for the horses, is a lot of what you did at the track taking care of the legs?

EMBRY: Yes, that's, that's the main thing.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: See, is taking care of them legs.

SMITH: What else were some of things that --

EMBRY: Body take care of itself, if you go on feed him right, body take care of itself.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: You know what I'm trying to say.

SMITH: Now it's something Mister Cop -- Doctor Coplan was saying too, that you were good with nutrition in the horses.

EMBRY: I'm good at what?

SMITH: Nutrition? You fed them --

EMBRY: --oh!--

SMITH: -- you fed them right.

EMBRY: Oh yeah, yeah sure! Yeah!

SMITH: So what do you feed them?

EMBRY: You don't -- well what I am trying to say here, you need a little corn, you need some oats, a little barley, all them pellets, I don't 01:06:00know what all that stuff in the pellets now, you don't need all that. Oats, corn, and some barley, and bran.

SMITH: Bran, okay.

EMBRY: Your horse do --

SMITH: --and you mix that up--

EMBRY: -- and -- if your horse body looks like is ain't doing just too good, get you some flax seed.

SMITH: Well, yeah.

EMBRY: See. And, you know, these kinds of things is what --

SMITH: Now these kind of things that, that you, if you were working as a groom would do because you thought it was a good idea, or did you have to work with trainers and the owners --

EMBRY: Well you worked with the trainer.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: Of course you know, you got whoever is in charge over you, you -- oh -- you, oh, of course, of course whole lot of people, being you a groom, you don't know -- nothing no how, I'm, I'm, I'm the trainer, I'm 01:07:00the boss, I'm the ----------(??) --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- whatever, you know, this is kind a -- so you might go peg him or her whoever is in charge about what to do, and then some people give such a snobby -- answer about something you just leave it alone, see. You, you, a lot of times you -- you know, I -- I've been around a whole lot of smart people (laughs). I wouldn't say whether they was smart peo -- people, but smart alecks, but you know, and you can't tell them, they know it all, you can't tell them nothing -- about where a horse might be hurting and, know, this, that and another, "how do you know? You, you," you know, so, a lot of time I -- this hurts. I don't 01:08:00say a word, just go to work and -- leave things alone, just -- its, its bad that way though you know, of course it look like you say, "your dad just want a paycheck." (laughs) you know, and that's, and that's bad too you know.

SMITH: Do you ever have instances where people's decisions like that hurt the horse, you know, were really bad for a horse?

EMBRY: Oh sure, sure! Many times, Lord, yeah, oh gee --

SMITH: --was there anybody --

EMBRY: -- make a horse, that makes a horse cheap. I, I broke horses with people, and rode horses for people and you tell them, "this horse is sore" -- sometimes somebody say, "I know it --" next day they take it back gallop them, breeze them, whatever, but he's sore. That making it worse, you know, and you been riding this horse, you know, he, he 01:09:00can run you know, you'd, you'd be setting down, you know, just smiling to yourself how fast these suckers were running you know, and you know, hey oh boy this is a runner, you know, I'm -- maybe he win a race, make, make a bet of or something like that you know, then something happen, you might have got ----------(??) in the stalls, or else he, anything can happen to horses, you know --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- overnight, you just, you don't ever know, you know, and then he is hurt but somebody just keep on --

SMITH: --keeps on running him--

EMBRY: -- keep on training, you know, ----------(??) stopping on him and doctoring on him. And that's on, that gets you too 'cause I mean, you know, I know it and, but keep going.

SMITH: They, now they, of course there is all the stories and the numbers of horses that get hurt on the track and have to be put down. Is some of that because they're not --

EMBRY: --they are not paying attention to what's going on?--

SMITH: -- with the horse, and --

EMBRY: --yep, so ----------(??), I'm telling you another thing, a horse is not fit and a jock just keep riding them in the ground --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- get limber legged and that's when -- is -- probably sprain an ankle or break a leg, or anything like that.

SMITH: Mm-mm. Now that can happen to a healthy horse too, right?

EMBRY: Mm?

SMITH: It -- a healthy horse, you know, can stumble.

EMBRY: Well yeah, but if he ain't fit, from what I'm telling you --

SMITH: --right--

EMBRY: -- yeah, he can be healthy but if he ain't fit to go the distance and he get dead tired, and you keep riding, your leg get, your legs will get, you ain't --

SMITH: --oh yeah, yeah--

EMBRY: -- you know, and then after awhile, if you all some concrete and you fall, you hurt. You see what I'm trying to say? And a horse don't have to be on, if he get leg wearied and everything get changed riding 01:11:00and he'd buckle over some way, and he'll p -- he will hurt his self.

SMITH: Was there ever anybody that you wouldn't work for because of the way they cared for their horses ----------(??)?

EMBRY: Yes, I've left jobs.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: Oh sure! Yeah! Yeah try to hurry up to get away from there, Lord yeah, yes Ma'am, I try --

SMITH: Now who is some of the trainers you've worked with who, to took the best care of the horses?

EMBRY: Who took the --

SMITH: The best care, who were really the best with their horses -- in your opinion?

EMBRY: Well, Ben Jones, worked for Calumet.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: I gallop horses for him for just a short while, you know, but he always -- watched his horses -- want to know how he feel this, that and another, that's what it's all about.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: He wan't, he is on the ground.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: So I'm on the horse, so "how does he feel, Tom?" or just that and 01:12:00other, you know, "was he always traveling all right?" "yeah." That's all, you know. That's all it is, say what he want. Devereux -- I worked for him.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: A long time. He is another man was concerned about how his horses was, you know. Now they knew. Huh -- I can't, I, I guess it's a whole lots of them but I would, Woody Stephens, my dad was there exercised horses. Woody was, always wanted to know how his horses was, "does he feel right?" you know, that's main thing, the most time most trainers will ask you, "how does he feel?" --

SMITH: --okay--

EMBRY: -- you know, going good, huh-huh. You know some of them might not ask you but if you tell them, like they get attitude. Yeah. 01:13:00Because they think he should be going on, you n -- you just -- as far as I'm concerned you're doing your job to a certain extent, you know, letting them know, that's you're up there for --

SMITH: --that's right--

EMBRY: -- you know.

SMITH: That's right.

EMBRY: But just some of them just don't, just, you know.

SMITH: That was one thing that I gathered from the last interview, and Doctor Coplan sort of re-enforced it is that you and your father -- were two people who really cared about the horses --

EMBRY: --that's right, yes ma'am--

SMITH: -- and took good care of the horses.

EMBRY: That's true. You know like him on the farm there. When he was doubtful about something, me and him would walk around, he (laughs), he will ask me about it, yeah, I give him my opinion back.

SMITH: Yeah, yeah he said you had a good eye for -- for problems.

EMBRY: Yeah! Yeah, 'cause you know, he be come to get I'm, I'm, I'm going to help him as much because hey, he is the reason I'm there --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- to tell you the truth now.

SMITH: Oh, okay.

EMBRY: Yeah, yeah, I'm telling you that 'cause --

SMITH: --he recommended you?

EMBRY: Mm? Huh, not really, but after I got there, he -- kind of recommended me more than anybody else, you know, so -- you know, he -- and -- when Mr. Young was living, you know, he, always wanted to know what you know, I wasn't going to be there you know, but, like I say, but so far I'm, I'm still there so. Now you let that things be you know, but, but all, you know, some people they just 'cause they're bosses, of course, they just, they just think that they, you know, and I just leave some things alone that's all, you know.

SMITH: Yeah well, well you worked with so many different people --

EMBRY: --oh Lord yeah!--

SMITH: -- in all your life.

EMBRY: Yeah.

SMITH: That, that's another thing I wanted to talk to you about --

EMBRY: But -- you -- oof -- I tell you how some of those things come along too. So a lot of people I had regular job with, and then somebody -- exercise rider never shows up --

SMITH: --oh, okay--

EMBRY: -- and they would come, maybe to see me on the horse, they asked me would I have time to get on a horse or two for them you know, and I just tell them, I say, "look -- ask Mr. Devereux" or "ask Carter," or different, whoever I was working for. They got insurance on me.

SMITH: Right.

EMBRY: See this is another thing. If they say it's okay, they will, if a horse go out and stumble, you know, you don't have to do nothing, just see, you know, anything could happen, and I get hurt, and I'm 01:16:00taken care of, you know what I mean, you know?

SMITH: Right.

EMBRY: Of course if I just go out there on my own, well --

SMITH: --that's right--

EMBRY: -- I'm on my own, but I wasn't working for him or nothing and he didn't know about me getting on these other things, you know --

SMITH: --that's right--

EMBRY: -- but -- I just tell them go ask the boss, or some -- some of them would go ask him themselves, and Tom, when you get through with Tom, can --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- and you know, he'd say yeah, you know, and they'd always did that, anywhere I used to be at, if they know I was there -- which they know, most people knew, kind of knew me back there during that time, they knew who I worked for, ----------(??).

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: After I was there, because I worked with this man or that man so they know I was there and they come in for a big race, they go ask him say "I'm coming in for that race, can I get Tom to gallop my horse?" --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: --"Yeah, yeah." Mack Miller, I just think about him. I can't think of some of them horses he had, he had some decent horses back 01:17:00there, back there during that time, and I was be somewhere, like in Philadelphia, I was up there with Ray Lawrence, that's who I was ------ ----(??) with --

SMITH: --oh-- (laughs)--

EMBRY: -- (laughs) and he --

SMITH: --okay, that looks wonderful, thank you--

MRS. EMBRY: (laughs) --mm-mm--

EMBRY: -- and he used to come get me to -- gallop horses for him, that come up in a stake races from New York, he used to come to New York ----------(??) which I broke yearlings for him back there, you know, years ago when he first got out, the guy got it on me and everything and he got in the horse business. And -- I galloped horses for him, broke yearling.

SMITH: Now who, what are some of the farms that you worked for then, we tal -- did you work for the Whitneys some? On the Whitneys' farm?

EMBRY: Oh yeah, I worked for them for a while, there yeah, (laughs). Mrs. Whitney, yeah Lord, but they -- I guess just about a month, or 01:18:00something like that. One of the riders got sick, got hurt or something, I don't know, and -- I wan't doing nothing during the time, we, it would be unlucky that I wan't doing nothing, and they asked me would I come out there and help them, you know, get on the yearlings, and, and I say, "yeah, I don't mind." And I worked out there for I guess about a month during that year and I think the next year, Sil Vietch, he was in charge of breaking the yearlings back there during that time.

SMITH: Now who was?

EMBRY: Sil Vitech

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: And a boy named Joe (Snosos?) he was, had been there for many years and he asked them could you find me, could he get me to come back out there and ride and break yearlings you know, and I -- I don't know who I was working for, or how it happened but I think I give him 01:19:00a week's notice that I was going to quit (laughs) because it was a good job back there during, during that time --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- see, you know, you, you had to pick your, pick a, ---------- (??) Whitney's were paying pretty good money back there during that time.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: And so I went to work out there there doing, I guess about two or three months breaking yearlings and then it --

SMITH: Did you ever meet Mrs. Whitney?

EMBRY: Mm?

SMITH: Did you ever meet --

EMBRY: Oh Lord yeah!

SMITH: -- Mrs. --

EMBRY: ----------(??) I w -- I used to be at the winner circle at Keeneland, letting the people in when they won a race and everything, you know, and Mrs. Whitney (laughs) come down there and she say, "Oh Tom!" And I, I say, "yes M -- how are you Mrs. Whitney?" I say, "Oh that's right, you are not Mrs. Whitney any more!" "Yes I am Mrs. Whitney!" (both laugh) Oh Lord yeah, Lord yeah they know me! Hum, Hum, 01:20:00Hum! Yeah Lord!

SMITH: What were some of the -- the farms that people, that you would want to work for, that paid well, and treated you well, what were some of those farms?

EMBRY: Hamburg Farm.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: The Maddens, one of the greatest people, a joy to be around, well you know, not -- they just one of, you know.

SMITH: Okay. That --

EMBRY: --but like I say --

SMITH: --that was when, when Preston --

EMBRY: --mm-mm--

SMITH: --was, okay--

EMBRY: --yeah, yeah they was, they was great, both, you know, that family was just good, the son, you know, and everything, and even now the -- Patrick Madden, his daughters and all, all of them they was just, they was just good people. Now see my family, some of my great uncles had worked over there years ago, you know, and --

SMITH: --for the --

EMBRY: --for the Maddens--

SMITH: -- yeah for the --

EMBRY: --for the, for their daddy --

SMITH: --okay, for the older --

EMBRY: -- was the old, older gentleman you know, for Preston and them daddy, you know.

SMITH: Back in the twenties.

EMBRY: Mm?

SMITH: Back in the twenties?

EMBRY: Yes.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: Yes. And they, and -- they just been always great people. I would say, you know, to black people during that time.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: Maddens was just, they're just super people, and they still are, you know, you just -- if you would, if I would go to their house right now, I would be invited in the great big room where everybody sat, I wouldn't be -- they just, were just people, they just love people. I don't know, they're just great. I mean you -- oh Lord! And they just make you feel good to be around people like them, you know.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: And, and they always been there, because I had a auntie worked in the house when I was a kid over there to the Maddens.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: And I used to go over there when I was a kid, you know, and everything, yeah! And Mrs. Madden, Preston's mamma, oh she was always been great to me, oh Lord, you know, he and I, you know, how she was a ----------(??) who got married you know, after ----------(??). But -- they've always been good people and you could -- and I worked there off and on about three times, at least three different times.

SMITH: What about some of the other farms, you said you --

EMBRY: --well!--

SMITH: -- worked at Calumet some, was that a good place to go?

EMBRY: Huh, I wasn't on the farm at Calumet, I worked at the track --

SMITH: --okay--

EMBRY: -- but -- yeah Ben Jones, he was a good guy, you know, he was horseman --

SMITH: --oh yeah!--

EMBRY: -- but he'd treat you all right, you know, but I didn't know nothing about the farm people, you know --

SMITH: --okay--

EMBRY: -- I b -- I did ----------(??) them all, I just know this, knew him. But now, like I say, the Whitneys was good, you know, I knew them.

SMITH: What about the Hancocks, did you ever work for the Hancocks?

EMBRY: No, no, I never did work for --

SMITH: --okay--

EMBRY: -- them, no, but I know them.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: Yeah, I know them, and they know me (laughs) because well I, I worked for a guy named Carter Thornton and -- he always been a good friend of Bull Hancock the, you know, and everything and, yeah, and I know their daughter -- Dell, she used to come over his farm and ride with Meg you know, and everything and in, yeah I know the family lord, all of them and I know them well.

SMITH: Was there any farm -- I'm, I mean it seems like African-Americans were working on almost all the farms, but was there any farm where you didn't find African-Americans working?

EMBRY: No, they worked almost everywhere.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: They was -- kind of -- well they was everywhere, African- Americans they, you know, horse people back there then they bought homes, there's one thing about most people that worked with horses, had 01:24:00their own homes, of course, more or less the people that they worked for always helped them to buy homes and things --

SMITH: --okay--

EMBRY: -- you know, back there during that time.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: The -- Mr. Headley the thing about him, I didn't work for him, I worked for his grandson but --

SMITH: --mm-mm, Mike?--

EMBRY: -- Mike (laughs) and -- but I knew them, you know, the whole family of them, I just, I just know it all, we was always around them, or more, you know, but them guys worked for him he bought all of them homes you know.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: I just -- and you know, it is, people back there were just a little different than what's going on now, you know, hey --

SMITH: --yeah, it seems like it--

EMBRY: -- if you work, you could get something --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- you know, they would see that you got something.

SMITH: Yeah!

EMBRY: And -- when I (clears throat).

SMITH: Huh, one thing I forgot to ask. Did you -- guys that worked the tracks, did you do a lot of betting?

EMBRY: Who?

SMITH: Did, the g -- when you were working on the tracks did you do a lot of betting on the horses?

EMBRY: There's not a lot, I tell you, you know, you would -- have a certain horse that you would kind of wait for to bet on that you would think that you could win.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: You know, what I mean you just didn't go about be bet, and I'm, might, would bet a double I put it that way, you -- every day you just might bet say, well -- I'm twenty-six, I am going to bet two and six (laughs).

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: (laughs) just pick, pick a number, not try to pick a winner, just pick a number and you'd, you almost win more money that way (Embry laughs) than you would then you looking at a form and --

SMITH: But now you be riding the horses and you'd be grooming --

EMBRY: --well, that's what I'm trying to say--

SMITH: -- so you would know it was a, who was fit.

EMBRY: Yeah. You would bet more or less what you ride, this is the kind of way that was.

SMITH: Did you ever make much money off a bet?

EMBRY: Occasionally, more or less, yes, that's where you make your money.

SMITH: Really?

EMBRY: Mm-mm, yes but you just got to sit still, and -- just wait, you know, that's the important thing about that, because that horse right there he might not win but two races a year, but now you might have another too, another horse, you know, and sometimes it's best to pay to wait because, cause most people stake you and different things like that, so, you, you know, if you're getting paid decent, so you can't -- sometimes you got a family, you can't take no chance and just be running around just betting like that, you know.

SMITH: That's right, that's right.

EMBRY: Yeah.

SMITH: Hum. Was that a problem for anybody? Anybody get into it too much and lose too much money?

EMBRY: Well, some people did.

SMITH: Was that common?

EMBRY: Some people do now, yeah, a whole lot of people lose everything they got betting, you know, just, yeah!

SMITH: No, I mean the workers -- would do it.

EMBRY: Yeah, oh sure! They used toalways tell you don't bet the baby's milk money (Embry laughs)

SMITH: That's right.

EMBRY: Yeah (laughs).

SMITH: Absolutely.

EMBRY: That's what old timers used to tell you, yeah!

SMITH: Hey, one thing I, I meant to ask you, did you ever work on a, with a Derby horse? Were you ever working on a horse that ran in the Derby?

EMBRY: Ran in the Derby -- 'Halt' was only one really did I--

SMITH: --what was that name again?--

EMBRY: -- when I would -- when I would --

SMITH: '--Halt?--'

EMBRY: -- Woody Stephens.

SMITH: What's the name? 'Halt?'

EMBRY: 'Halt,' H-a-l-t.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: He would finish fourth there, my daddy was rubbing him and that was -- forty-one Hum, oh Lord, sometimes in the forties, I can't think (laughs) can't even, I'm trying to think who beat him.

SMITH: Did you ever work any other Derbys?

EMBRY: No, no, wa -- I was -- I was at Maddens when they had, but I didn't work, ----------(??) he was -- I didn't know he was a Derby horse when he was out there, 'Alysheba' but (clears throat) the, they sold him and they raised him --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- yeah and everything.

SMITH: You, you weren't there when the horse was there, though, right?

EMBRY: 'Alysheba?'

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: Yeah when he was born.

SMITH: Were you there then?

EMBRY: Yeah, I was with his mama 'Bel Sheba.'

SMITH: Oh, okay.

EMBRY: Yeah, yeah. I got a picture of her somewhere, I don't know I guess somewhere, yeah, mama 'Bel Sheba,' yeah! But -- you know, when he won the Derby, you know, they was happy because they --

SMITH: --sure!--

EMBRY: -- raised him you know, this is what it's kind of about. Yeah, 'Alysheba.'

SMITH: I need to interview -- Mr. Madden.

EMBRY: Mr. Madden?

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: Yeah, he is a great guy.

SMITH: Yeah, yeah, yeah and then I think that Anita Madden is on my list too.

EMBRY: (laughs) You, you can ask them about me (laughs).

SMITH: I will, I will. That's one fun thing about doing these interviews, is I, I kind of help connect people up again --

EMBRY: --yeah Lord!--

SMITH: --that's, that's always fun. Huh -- okay there was -- we talked a little bit about this last time, and that's how the help's changed on the farms. Do you think the quality of the help that's on the farms now is as good as it used to be? (laughs). Your wife wants to answer for you.

EMBRY: (laughs). No well, no -- I think they could be, I'll put it this way. I -- most of the help they got is Mexican. They'll and they do, do a -- a good job. But -- I guess -- I don't know how to put this -- 01:30:00the people, what people doing now is, is so much different, I guess, you know -- and they -- they trying to follow orders and do -- what somebody tell them to do, because if they (laughs) might do it wrong then --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- they might be sent back across the fence, and you know, this kind of -- and you know, they, so they just kind of follow orders, but they're good horsemen, I put it that way.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: They is, I mean --

SMITH: But they not, may not be -- comfortable --

EMBRY: --they just, yeah --

SMITH: -- doing what they might know--

EMBRY: -- they kind of uncomfortable about -- about what they're doing, you know, because he, I don't care, well -- they got to go along with 01:31:00what somebody else say and they're going to do this, even though it's wrong.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: He just to put his own ----------(??) because.

SMITH: But the farm managers or the trainers tell them --

EMBRY: --no, whoever is in charge you know, they just --

SMITH: --whoever is in charge, okay--

EMBRY: -- they just go along with what -- somebody tell them, because and I, like me, out at the farm there, sometimes I go tell them how to do certain things and they will do it, and then somebody come along, "why are you doing that? What you, why are you doing?" And really they don't say "well Tom --" ----------(??) you know that I said, but I say, "you, you should tell them that you -- that I told you, you know, don't get me wrong, don't, I ain't backing off of them, because you know, I 01:32:00know what I'm talking about, you know, and, but, but they just, they take the heat and, and forget about it, you know. So that kind a -- cool me down, here to not --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- say nothing.

SMITH: That's not right though.

EMBRY: Oh I know it's not, don't get me wrong now.

SMITH: Well when you --

EMBRY: --of course, see --

SMITH: --know so much about horses.

EMBRY: -- I had one guy -- was out there -- asked me something about why didn't I tell them. I said, "look, I told them once about something, I know whatever it was, I can't think, and then you come and jumped on them about it," I say, "I don't tell them nothing no more! I let you do the talking."

SMITH: O-o-o-h! Yeah.

EMBRY: Yeah, I told him and eventually they fired him too.

SMITH: A-a-h! Good.

EMBRY: Yeah, yeah he used to say he going to fire me, you're fired, you know, I'm, well okay I called, the farm manager, I told him what happened, he say "he can't fire nobody!" (both laugh) but you know --

SMITH: You know at, Doctor Coplan was talking about how the grooms used to just take such good care of the horses --

EMBRY: --oh they do!--

SMITH: -- and practically lived with the horses.

EMBRY: Oh they love them, they, they just --

SMITH: -- is that s -- did, is that not --

EMBRY: -- I'm telling you --

SMITH: -- what's happening now?--

EMBRY: -- horses just love them even now--

SMITH: --yeah, I've heard that.

EMBRY: -- it just really! A horse, they talk to them, they just, and that's another thing I d -- I can't get the Mexicans to do, is talk to the horses.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: I say, I use to tell them, go we need to -- go ahead, go ahead and talk to them, you know, and (laughs) they look at me that -- but horses love that and oh, they just. We got two -- Doc got two -- not, they're not Thoroughbreds, I don't know what you might call them but, anyhow, they're weaners out there and people don't go feed them that 01:34:00much or anything you know, out there so, I go feed them (laughs). They see me pull up there, oh boy! They come r-r-r-unning! Oh (laughs).

SMITH: Now is this on his farm, or --

EMBRY: --no, yeah he --

SMITH: -- or over at Overbrook?--

EMBRY: -- got them out to the farm at Overbrook Farm --

SMITH: -- at -- okay.

EMBRY: -- and they come running up there and everything and they don't get handled that much, see?

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: Because they're not Thoroughbreds, you know, they just out there, they weaned them from the mama and everything and I go over and look at them and feed them and see what's going on, you know, and oh boy, and I come up I just rub their little heads and everything, they don't s -- at first they didn't -- I do that, they just --

SMITH: --didn't know what to think--

EMBRY: -- yeah, didn't know what to do. Now they, they just walk all over me, they just (laughs) ha, ha, I'm telling you I just talk to them and oh boy, he, they just look at me and they --

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: -- but they just, they love to be talked to, more or less any 01:35:00animal love to be talked to, dogs, cats, I don't care what it is, when you talk to them they, they just, dog wag his tail, do, you know they just this --

SMITH: --so it's --

EMBRY: -- horses look at you and just --

SMITH: --so all this knowledge that you have and your dad had --

EMBRY: --mm?--

SMITH: -- and, and so many of the guys had --

EMBRY: --oh mercy!--

SMITH: -- it's just, just not getting passed on the way it should?

EMBRY: Oh no.

SMITH: Like you were mentored by your dad, your uncles, and -- that's not happening now.

EMBRY: No -- well, I tell you I've, my boys loved horses too. They did.

SMITH: Yeah, but you said you didn't encourage them to get into --

EMBRY: --no ma'am --

SMITH: -- the business --

EMBRY: --no. We used to take them riding, you know, we used to take them, take them riding out there (laughs) off to, there used to be this place out of Richmond Road they used to have a riding place, and then they take them to the Horse Park, oh they used to love it, they used to love it, you know. And, but I got to just looking at life which and the game, I say this ain't for them.

SMITH: It's a hard life.

EMBRY: Mm?

SMITH: It was a hard life.

EMBRY: Yeah, is --

MRS. EMBRY: --it is not fair either--

EMBRY: -- it is not just hard but it's no, it's no benefit, it's nothing, there is nothing, it's a, it ain't nothing. It ain't nothing for you, unless now, if I had money myself, could put you into training, put you --

SMITH: --right--

EMBRY: -- into something, or buy some more, and do this that and another, okay! Yeah you can make it! I know you can make it, see?

SMITH: Yeah. But you can't get to that point.

EMBRY: But, but huh-huh, ain't nobody else is going to give you that shot.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: Do me a favor, baby, there's some magazine in there on in the living room bring it here with you, and -- or 'Blood Horse.'

SMITH: 'Blood Horse?' Okay.

EMBRY: But -- you know, the breaks you get, this, this is the only thing I'm, I'm going to show you a guy in this book here come along with my 01:37:00dad, helped me along my way too. He didn't weigh but a hundred five or ten pounds (laughs)

SMITH: Was he a jockey?

EMBRY: Yeah, that's what he wanted to be. But he never made it.

SMITH: This is an old one.

MRS. EMBRY: Neil!

SMITH: Mm-mm, there he is.

MRS. EMBRY: Yeah, yeah he was our --

EMBRY: --could ride a horse!--

MRS. EMBRY: --he was like our family.

EMBRY: Could ride a horse!

SMITH: Neil Davis?

EMBRY: Could ride a horse! He worked for -- oh Lord, what that woman name? They're from Texas. Hum!

SMITH: Now, he never got to be a jockey?

MRS. EMBRY: Hum-hum.

EMBRY: Never got to be one.

SMITH: How come?

MRS. EMBRY: Huh!

EMBRY: But (laughs) --

SMITH: --I'm asking?--

EMBRY: -- yes shall I --

MRS. EMBRY: --tell her ----------(??)

EMBRY: Huh-huh, you see what color he is, don't you?

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: Oh, okay. Now see, thing was going out. He was older than me.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: He was, he was my dad's age. He come along with my dad --

SMITH: --okay--

EMBRY: -- and everything, and could ride a horse! I mean, hey, he taught me everyth -- a whole lot of things about riding, you know, how to come out of the gate and all these kinds of things, you know, he was, hey horse backer yes he --

SMITH: --and they --

EMBRY: -- he galloped a many good horse.

SMITH: -- but he wasn't given the chance.

EMBRY: Never got a chance to be a jockey. Yeah, he living now he'd be about ninety -- seven or ninety-eight, I guess, right along in there.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: But he was seventy some years old right there when he, and he was still riding, you know, I'd go on vacation and I'd get him to take my place, substitute for me

SMITH: Hum, Hum. What year is this? 1984. Oh okay. Huh. So -- your 01:39:00dad, did your dad ever feel like he didn't -- get the opportunities he might have wanted, or --

EMBRY: Well he know it, I mean don't get me wrong they be most -- a whole lot of people know but when you don't have -- anyway when you don't have the money to do something, and you know it expensive --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- and do ----------(??) fighting with a short stick, you, you know, you ain't doing nothing, you, I have seen a whole lot of these guys -- try to train horses and didn't make much a year as I did, this what I'm trying to say.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: And half the time, getting feed from somewhere or the other, and all this kind of thing, you know, gyps running around, I'm, I'm, I mean it --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- it is not, you misusing your horse, that is, it's almost like 01:40:00a man with a family he ain't got no job. Hustlers and somebody else to try take away his kid and all this kind of --

SMITH: --yeah.

EMBRY: You know, and it, this ain't right, you, you don't need it. Just go on get you a regular job and --

SMITH: --right, right--

EMBRY: -- and be around the horses and do your best for the horses like, and I use to say try to make you a bet and get you a little extra money or some way another you know, because you just, and, and just kind of the way they made it, you know, and if you had a good horse to win a big stake race back there then, win any kind of race, they always used to stake you something --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- I worked for Riley Dees he gave twenty-five dollars to win, ten dollars to place, five dollars to show when a horse ran. Everybody always did stake you something when you win or rubbing him, or exercise boy or something, you always give you a stake.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: So that was some extra money you could pick up.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: See?

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: Like Greg(??) Stevens, he w -- I, he just went thirty to forty races a year. From River Down, different places. He put all of it in the kitty and every year when Christmas time come, he'd like to have about two or three hundred dollars.

SMITH: Huh.

EMBRY: See?

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: ----------(??) is same thing, plus you -- hustle around, bet, do these things and you'd be done made pretty good money at the end of the year, when his people would, had two or three horses and trying to hustle a race or something, they might win a one race, two races, but that little money you're getting, hey, is gone.

SMITH: It's not, yeah.

EMBRY: See?

SMITH: It's not enough, yeah.

EMBRY: You know, this is what I'm trying to say, you know.

SMITH: Yeah, yeah, I get it.

EMBRY: He, because -- and I ha -- as I was coming up, yeah, I would of loved to own a horse, all this kind of stuff (laughs) I got to think about what the bill is --

SMITH: --yeah that's right--

EMBRY: -- but I know I'd, I been assistant trainer, I know, I kept up with them bills --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- I know what it cost.

SMITH: What it cost.

EMBRY: What the hay was, what the straw was, what the oats here, what the vet cost, what the blacksmith charged, hey! Oh mercy, hum!

SMITH: Do you have any regrets of spending your life with horses the way you have?

EMBRY: No.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: No, not no regrets, no.

SMITH: So, so you didn't want it for your, your sons, but --

EMBRY: --but like I say --

SMITH: -- you --

EMBRY: -- only thing, only thing I just say -- I think from some of my knowledge, if I knew the right people, they would say, here you take this string of horses and go on and train --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- you've been assistant for so long, this, that and the other, they, they look at their dollars -- ----------(??) it -- I ---------- 01:43:00(??) think everybody that's been the assistant after that, your trainer, I can think of some more too, but --

SMITH: --so that's the opportunity you never got--

EMBRY: -- the opportunity, that's what I am trying to say.

SMITH: Yeah, okay.

EMBRY: This is what I'm trying to say.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: When you don't, only, you don't find no black man have been a trainer behind no white man. Only way he been a trainer, he had enough money to do it his self.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: That's what I am trying to say, but you know --

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: He is, he is the main thing and he is the main man in the game, no ----------(??) --

SMITH: --oh yeah!--

EMBRY: -- you know, what I am trying to say is, this is his game, more like, you know.

SMITH: What do you see --

EMBRY: --but -- this is --

SMITH: -- the future for --

EMBRY: -- but see, no, l -- you know, no, it don't bother me none, because I guess I know what time it is, you know, (laughs) when you know what --

SMITH: yeah--

EMBRY: -- what's happening in the world -- you don't let that bother 01:44:00you, you know, you don't let things like anyway you wouldn't have no sense at all, you'd be just, let those kinds of things bother you, you know, you just keep getting up and, and do the best you can, that's all, you know.

SMITH: You have an awful lot of people out there that think quite a bit of you. They think you're just a --

EMBRY: --well I know that too, but --

SMITH: --yeah. Got a good reputation--

EMBRY: -- I'd rather --

MRS. EMBRY: ----------(??)

SMITH: --but yeah, okay--

EMBRY: -- I would say, some way to know the truth, I'd rather keep it that a way too.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: Because right now, I just, I just think, now, if one of them people was they wanted me to train horses now, I would turn them down (clears throat)

SMITH: Oh.

EMBRY: Really! Mm-mm.

SMITH: Why?

EMBRY: Well, for one reason they'd be looking over my shoulder too much.

SMITH: Oh.

EMBRY: Now, I'm telling you now, you see? That's why -- you know, (laughs) I'm going to tell you something. This boy was training horses, he been training horses, can train horses that win races, and 01:45:00everything. He was around up east and the guy that he was training for up there he passed away and everything and he was going to win a whole lot of races right up there around Maryland, places up there, you know. So he came on back home and he got to train here for this guy, got the horses ready, everything, getting ready to -- win some races. He had a filly that could run. She could really run, you know. He done broke her maiden, ----------(??) winners at two and she just done thew, thew, you know, could be, could run. When he got ready to run her in the stake race, he took the horse away from him.

SMITH: Oh.

EMBRY: I'm serious now, I'm telling you, Herb Jones. You know, I know 01:46:00some ----------(??) facts.

SMITH: Herb, Herb Jones is the young man or the --

EMBRY: --no --

SMITH: -- the person who took it away from him?--

EMBRY: -- he is the guy that was training the horses. He been training, the boy had been training horses, he been, he close around my age, he, he had a brother my age, he was a little younger, but back there he was training some horse for this guy up around Maryland, he stayed up that a way for oh I guess ten years up there training horses man until he died, you know, and he was winning the races around up there, Maryland, Delaware, all around up there, he was doing good, you know. But people are a little different up that a way too, I tell you another thing. Ever -- you --

SMITH: --up, up north?--

EMBRY: -- up, yeah sure! All up east and north, they, whole lot, if I had stayed around Jersey I don't know where I might could've been anything, but I always liked to be at home.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: Because I had a family at home, that, that's another thing too, I always had a family, so, I didn't want to be up there 'cause, but I could have stayed right up there --

SMITH: --and --

EMBRY: -- and really --

SMITH: -- might have been more opportunities--

EMBRY: -- I would, it was, it really was, really. But -- but yeah can 01:47:00y -- and ask me, and that horse, she w -- she could, I don't -- that guy took her to California. She win out there, that one stake, and I, but I don't know what happened to her after then. But -- yeah sh -- because she could really run and he took her away from him.

SMITH: What do you think the opportunities are for black people in the industry right now?

EMBRY: Oh they got plenty of opportunity but they got to have money.

SMITH: Got to have the money, okay.

EMBRY: Yeah, you got to have that, you got to have it yourself (clears throat)

SMITH: But you're not going to see they on the farms again.

EMBRY: Mm?

SMITH: You're not going to see them working on the farms again like you used to --

EMBRY: --not too many, no, 'cause c --

SMITH: --okay--

EMBRY: -- well like I say, they know they ain't going nowhere --

SMITH: --okay--

EMBRY: -- this is another thing, see they ain't going nowhere, you be, you just, you just be there working --

SMITH: --okay--

EMBRY: -- that's, all you know, and, and, that's the reason I, all my grandchildren, great grandchildren, I try to push them to go to school 01:48:00--

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- get you plenty education, 'cause you, that's one way you're going to fight this battle, because you, you got to have it, you got to, you got to have that education, you got to have plenty of it, you, you can't be messing around, if you want to make some money. Because see, you, you got the education, you can kind of make it anywhere.

SMITH: That's true.

EMBRY: You can go to Germany, you can go, I don't care what you go, when you got it, you can, you can --

SMITH: --you can make it work--

EMBRY: -- you can make the money anyway, you know, you, you, you can go anywhere you don't -- yeah.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: I'm pumping it in their head and everywhere I can to --

SMITH: How many grandchildren do you have?

EMBRY: Oh Lord, ----------(??)? Oh mercy! (laughs)

SMITH: All right now one of you has to remember.

EMBRY: I just look, I w -- you're look up on that, on that mantle piece and see whole lots of them up there. Oh Lord!

SMITH: Oh my gosh!

EMBRY: Oh mercy, all of them, see I -- s --

SMITH: You've got six children, right? Is that right?

EMBRY: Yeah.

MRS. EMBRY: Five.

EMBRY: Yeah, five now --

MRS. EMBRY: One of them died, huh-huh.

SMITH: I'm so -- oh I am sorry.

MRS. EMBRY: So, let's see, huh --

EMBRY: How many grandchildren do you got sure enough now, Rondell got two, Courtney got two, Marguerite has got three, that's --

MRS. EMBRY: Mar --

EMBRY: -- seven -- Felicia got --

MRS. EMBRY: --Felicia got two -- got one--

EMBRY: -- one, Thomas got three --

MRS. EMBRY: --Thomas got three --

EMBRY: -- and Courtney got -- I mean -- Derick, he got four.

MRS. EMBRY: Rick got four, that's fourteen.

SMITH: Oh my gosh! Oh my gosh! And great grandchildren too.

MRS. EMBRY: And great, eleven.

EMBRY: Oh Lord!

SMITH: (laughs) Oh my gosh!

MRS. EMBRY: Eleven, mm-mm.

SMITH: Oh!

EMBRY: And got --

MRS. EMBRY: Yeah, so when all, if they come here, we'd have to rent somewhere because you know, if we all get together, all of --

SMITH: --fourteen plus eleven--

MRS. EMBRY: -- them. And we have to rent somewhere.

EMBRY: Yes, all this, all this family up there, all of them --

SMITH: --and none of them work with horses.

EMBRY: Mm?

SMITH: And none of them work with horses.

EMBRY: No! And they love them.

SMITH: They love them --

EMBRY: --oh they do!--

SMITH: -- but they don't work with them, okay.

EMBRY: Oh mercy, they just, hum-hum-hum!

MRS. EMBRY: No, they don't need to.

EMBRY: They just love them, I tell you, yeah.

SMITH: Yeah. Oh that's great.

EMBRY: But of course, I -- like I say, indeed its a different world now -- and I, I want to see them do good and they won't get no further than packing --

MRS. EMBRY: ----------(??) drugs --

EMBRY: -- some water and putting the feed in them stalls--

MRS. EMBRY: -- on the track and every -- you know, it's just --

SMITH: --and more drugs on the track, yeah.

MRS. EMBRY: Yeah and it, that, that's, that's out, mm-mm, mm-mm.

EMBRY: I d --

SMITH: Well let me --

EMBRY: You know --

SMITH: -- let me ask you this -- go ahead.

EMBRY: -- I best ----------(??) been around the racetrack though is women now --

SMITH: --you see a lot of women?--

EMBRY: -- but -- oh yeah! They -- and most of them is educated girls too, you know, don't get me wrong, most of the, whole lot of women I worked with and taught to ride here, college graduates, and everything, and, 01:51:00and they love the horse, that's one, that's, and that's what makes me feel good, is when you love the horse, you gets along with the horse, see? And them girls get, they, they have done a wonderful job when I was out there, you know, had them working -- with me and everything, and from me and everything because I'd, I hired, when I was at Hamburg Farm, there was a I had but one boy out there breaking yearlings.

SMITH: The rest were girls?--

EMBRY: -- I had four girls.

SMITH: Four girls.

EMBRY: Yes.

SMITH: Gee.

EMBRY: And they did done a good job! They done a beautiful job! Yes ma'am. One of them had never broke, two of them had never -- rode a horse before --

SMITH: --until they came to the farm?--

EMBRY: -- and I brought them to the farm there one of them come from -- where did one come, Delaware? Where did she come from? And I can't think of her name, now.

SMITH: Is this the one? You told me about one who went on to be a jockey? Went on to be a rider?

EMBRY: Yeah, yeah! ----------(??) you know, Harvey -- sent her down 01:52:00here. What is that girl name? I'll be dogone. Now I can't think of her name, yes, she w -- I learn her how to ride, and she went on back up there and started to ride races. Yeah!

SMITH: Mm. Well let me ask you this, your final question, but, if you can think of other things we can keep talking, if you, how would you want people to remember -- your, your life in working with horses? How would you want to be remembered?

EMBRY: Well, that I loved them and I did the best I could, I mean, you know, and try to get horses ready to race -- get horses ready for sale, anything, you know, to prepping them for sale, train them to race, or whatever, you know --

SMITH: Doing a good job.

EMBRY: Well, that's what I tried to do, you know, and, like I s -- ay 01:53:00'fore, there is a few people still around that might could tell you about me more than I c -- could, you know.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: I know, I was thinking about down to the -- Forest Retreat Farm, the Hughes, Ruth and Gail, I worked there for -- twenty years I guess off and on, and I was just more or less breaking yearlings, but I was assistant to Ruth training horses and everything, but -- they can kind of tell you about me because I, I've -- didn't, I -- any kind of horse can be broke --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- you know, don't get me wrong -- I didn't -- when they see one look like it might been a little funny might, they say, we try Tom, I think you better --

SMITH: --you better take care of it?--

EMBRY: -- better you may get him, you know, they used to say, when a horse got a white in his eye, you better watch him, I say you better 01:54:00watch him, maybe he got black in his eye, I don't care what he got (both laugh). But -- you know, I, and -- and mostly, mostly all, everybody I -- because I never worried about a job, I put it that a way --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- you know, I --

SMITH: --oh yeah--

EMBRY: -- always -- could have, get a job, I can go, everybody, "oh yeah! When do you want a job?" They, they, oh I come Monday, Tuesday, whenever, you know.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: But -- I always tried to do the best with -- for the horses, and I kind of most people know that and, and it kind of got around --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- that Tom could gallop a horse, Tom could ride a horse, Tom could do this to a horse, Tom, you know --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- so it, it's, it's kind of the way, the way it is in a game, you know --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- it's just almost like a great trainer -- he is a good trainer, when, "will you take my horse, Tom," this that and you know, but --

SMITH: --so you've been well respected.

EMBRY: Mm?

SMITH: You've been respected by the people you respect.

EMBRY: Yeah, that's it!

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: Yeah! And now, like I say, I'll always loved them, they just, I don't think it wasn't for the horse (laughs) --

SMITH: And when I was interviewing Doctor Fallon the other day, he said there's just nothing like a horse.

EMBRY: Doctor Fallon, ye --

SMITH: ----------(??) just --

EMBRY: Man, that's, that's another vet you can sh --

SMITH: --oh you know him too?--

EMBRY: -- oh Lord!

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: Lord yeah!

SMITH: He knows everybody.

EMBRY: Yeah (laughs) he, he, he, yeah. His brother-in-law --

SMITH: Jack Bryans?

EMBRY: Huh?

SMITH: Jack Bryans. Isn't that his brother-in-law?

EMBRY: No -- what the boy name? He worked for, for, for -- Bell. John Bell --

SMITH: --okay, huh --

EMBRY: --I used to --

SMITH: --okay--

EMBRY: -- take him on the farm and get on horses when I was down to 01:56:00Forest Retreat --

SMITH: --is that W -- Ward. No. They're related somehow to John Ward but I can't think who else. But the Bell family, is that who you're talking about, the Bells?

EMBRY: Oh mercy, it's something you can't think of people's name they've been --

SMITH: --I, I am, I'll --

EMBRY: --he used to come by the bank when you when we was up, what was that ----------(??)?

MRS. EMBRY: Mm?

EMBRY: What was -- oh Lord! Hum!

MRS. EMBRY: John T. Ward?

EMBRY: No-no-no-no, no, no.

SMITH: No. Somebody who was related to Fallon

EMBRY: He -- used to ride in the van with me down through the farm when I was at Forest Retreat and Maple Heights, Hum!

SMITH: It will come to you some time (laughs)

EMBRY: Yeah! But anyhow he married his, Doctor Fallon sister.

SMITH: Okay, okay.

EMBRY: Yeah! And he come, he, he comes to by -- Christmas Party at the 01:57:00farm.

SMITH: Oh do they?

EMBRY: Yeah, yeah (laughs)

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: Doctor Fallon do, yeah.

SMITH: Oh that's right, they still have the big Christmas party --

EMBRY: --oh yeah--

SMITH: -- don't they.

EMBRY: Yeah.

SMITH: I remember I was it, talking with Mack one day and he was going to the party, Mack Miller.

EMBRY: Yeah (laughs)

SMITH: I imagine that's quite a gathering.

EMBRY: Oh Lord yeah, yeah, we have big time!

MRS. EMBRY: What are you talking about, Pritchett?

EMBRY: Who?

MRS. EMBRY: Pritchett.

EMBRY: Crooked?

MRS. EMBRY: Pritchett who you're talking about?

SMITH: Pritchett

EMBRY: No-no, no-no. No, he is a friend of -- of Mr. Young, Doctor Pritchett. Yeah, he got, he, he just had to have ----------(??) around here. He don't do nothing. He come around the farm.

MRS. EMBRY: Oh! Mm-mm. I don't know who he is.

EMBRY: He is a young guy, you -- he worked for John Bell for a long time, used to exercise horses, I used to take him down to Forest Retreat -- when I was breaking yearlings down there; I used to get about -- three 01:58:00or four guys from Keeneland, and we'd go to the farm -- he used to work for Ward after that's I think he used to work for Ward this boy did.

SMITH: All right, well I'll track him down some time in one of my interviews, probably.

EMBRY: Lord have mercy!

SMITH: One think I've noticed, it seems like a lot of the guys that used to work on the farm, are working at Keeneland, a lot of the black guys.

EMBRY: Oh yeah!

SMITH: Is that right?

EMBRY: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: Yeah.

SMITH: As ushers or as, in the sales, things like that?

EMBRY: Oh yeah, yeah --

SMITH: --okay--

EMBRY: -- they come out for the sale, most all of them, because of the sale, yeah, yeah! Yeah because I mean, you know, like I say, they're making that good money, you know, you know, you --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- you work two days at the sale you done made much, you done made all (laughs) the week at the farm.

SMITH: That's true.

EMBRY: Yeah.

SMITH: Probably true.

EMBRY: Yeah, yeah I used to work at the sales, you know, part of the sales or but when I was with Sallee used to go out there and ride 01:59:00the van all day; you'd make a hundred and fifty dollars a day messing around like that.

SMITH: You worked with Sallee?

EMBRY: Yeah.

SMITH: The, the vans, that owns the vans?

EMBRY: Mm-mm, yeah!

SMITH: When did you do that?

EMBRY: Yeah, I used to do that, I worked --

SMITH: It was one of your many jobs?

EMBRY: -- I worked for (laughs) oh yeah, I worked for Sallee for many years, rea -- for the old man -- ----------(??)

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: I w -- I worked for them, yeah -- off and on!

SMITH: What did you do?

EMBRY: I drove a van for a while, then I used to just ride the van, go different place with the horses?

SMITH: Oh and you'd take care of the horses and you'd ride the vans.

EMBRY: Yeah, I take care of the horses, yeah.

SMITH: Okay.

EMBRY: Yeah taking all the trips to California and New York, and all down through Louisiana, Texas, and, rode, I rode everywhere on the van.

SMITH: You liked to travel, didn't you.

EMBRY: Oh mercy, it was a good life -- I took some beautiful pictures coming through -- the Smoky, Tennessee--

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- you know, this time of the year, well, a little bit before this time of the year, you know, it was around 'bout, I guess, September.

SMITH: Yeah.

EMBRY: And I, oh I took some of the best pictures. I used to, mm. 02:00:00And, well whenever I went I took some good pictures, all going through Arizona, and --

SMITH: --yeah--

EMBRY: -- the place with the dinosaurs, and (laughs) yeah, oh really, yeah, oh yeah, oh, and I used to love that, that was, that was a great job, oh mercy, yeah.

SMITH: You don't get around that much now? You don't get to travel much now?

EMBRY: No, not too much you know, unless we take a vacation somewhere something. We ain't been nowhere for -- two years or better anyway. We got to get some where, I don't know where we're going.

SMITH: It's all right. Like go south for the winter or something huh!

EMBRY: I'm, yeah, hey --

SMITH: --well, I'm go ahead and end this now, unless you can think of anything else you wanted that we haven't talked about.

EMBRY: Well, I don't know, anything, I'm --

SMITH: --I tell you, we can -- and I'll give you a copy of this tape as well, and you can listen to them, and if it brings up some stories 02:01:00that you think we haven't covered, I'd, I'd love to come back -- do it that way?

EMBRY: Really (laughs), ha-ha!

[End of interview.]