Interview with Harry B. Scott, Jr., March 14, 2008

SMITH: This is, now let's see if I can get this adjusted up. This is Kim Lady Smith and today is, what is today, it is March--

SCOTT: --14th--

SMITH: --14th yeah, March 14th 2008 and I am at the home of Harry Scott in Lexington, Kentucky conducting an interview for the Horse Industry in Kentucky Oral History Project. And we think we're recording here. Sure looks like we might be. Um. (pause) All right. Mr. Scott, 00:01:00if you will go ahead and tell me your full name and when and where you were born and we'll go ahead and get started.

SCOTT: I'm Harry Burgoyne Scott Jr.; I was born in Lexington, Kentucky February the 27th 1926.

SMITH: 1926, okay. So you're eighty-two years old ----------(??)?

SCOTT: Eighty-two years old. My father was in the horse business. My grandfather owned farms and gen-, did general farming, but he also owned horses and he had a horse that was third in the K, Kentucky Derby in 1925.

SMITH: Okay I think I read about that. What was the horse's name?

SCOTT: Son of John.

SMITH: Son of John, okay, okay. Okay, now did you, did I, now what was his name? What was your grandfather's name?

SCOTT: Daniel Webster Scott. I have a brother Daniel Webster Scott II.

SMITH: Okay, okay is that the only brother you have, your only sibling?

SCOTT: Yes, yes.

SMITH: Okay. Now your grandfather, where did he live here in Fayette County?

SCOTT: He lived in, in actually in Clark County at Pine Grove, Kentucky.

SMITH: Okay, okay did he have a farm?

SCOTT: Pardon?

SMITH: Did he have a farm?

SCOTT: Oh he had a farm, several farms there. He died uh, he died the year I was born.

SMITH: The year after

SCOTT: He saw me, but I don't remember seeing him.

SMITH: So he died the year after he had the horse run in the Derby.

SCOTT: Yes.

SMITH: Gee. So what kind of farm did he have? Was it a?

SCOTT: General farming; cattle, tobacco, uh, corn, everything that went with it so I was told.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: But also horses too, Thoroughbred horses and all.

SMITH: Oh okay.

SCOTT: I think people my grandfather's age and my father's age could 00:03:00appreciate horses more than we do today because horses were a means of transportation for them. And my father always said they like to have a horse pull a buggy and have a buggy race with the city slickers coming out from town thinking they would make fools of the country boys. The country boys always had the best horse, they knew the horses.

SMITH: Oh.

SCOTT: And uh, they, they loved to race.

SMITH: Would they come into town to race, where would they do that?

SCOTT: Oh no this was just out on the country roads.

SMITH: Oh okay.

SCOTT: Trying to show off their, their horse, their buggy to a girlfriend

SMITH: Oh.

SCOTT: and they'd catch a country boy out and his horse and buggy and say, "let's race." And dad said nine times out of ten the country boy would always win the race had the better, better horse.

SMITH: Oh, okay, okay. Now um, your father what was his name?

SCOTT: Harry Burgoyne Scott. Now he went by H-a-r-r-i-e.

SMITH: I've seen that.

SCOTT: Uh, he changed his name in school. He said there were several Harrys in school and he didn't want to be like the rest of them so he started spelling it H-a-r-r-i-e. I, it was, his name in the bib-, in the family bible is down as H-a-r-r-y. I wished he'd named me H-a-r-r- i-e. But he said he would do it as it should be.

SMITH: Oh.

SCOTT: And my father was a, a wonderful man. The best horseman I ever knew. His, his, his feeling for horses was so fantastic and a quick eye, good eye. He said the best judge of a horse was Colonel Phil T. Chinn. Dad managed for Colonel Chinn from 1925 to 1929--

SMITH: --okay--

SCOTT: --and then left Colonel Chinn and resigned from the managing, operating, dad had his own farm. And leased another farm and then in 1930 he was offered the position as manager of Faraway Farm.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: And he managed that. At the time my father went there, Faraway Farm was run, run jointly by Mr. and Mrs. Samuel Riddle and Mr. and Mrs. Walter Jeffords.

SMITH: Um huh.

SCOTT: Mrs. Riddle was Mrs. Jeffords aunt. And the horses were kept together and all. And then about 1937 Mr. Riddle decided uh, he'd like to have his horses separated from the Jeffords' and they did it and in the 40's they actually divided the farm into two farms. So for 00:06:00awhile there were two farms operating as Faraway Farm.

SMITH: Okay. Oh, okay. Now did your dad manage both of them?

SCOTT: No he just, left Mr. Riddle and just managed the Jeffords' Farm.

SMITH: Okay. I'm sorry I'm having a little trouble here. I'm not sure what this recorder is doing. I tell ya. I don't know, testing. I'm going to do; I'm, I'm not going to risk this.

[Pause in recording.]

SMITH: Okay, all right this looks like what I'm used to. Now we're 00:07:00still recording a little hot, let me turn this down. This is Kim Lady Smith and today is March 14, 2008. I am at the home of Harry Scott Jr. in Lexington, Kentucky doing an interview for the Horse Industry of Kentucky Oral History Project. This is our second try so we're going to see if we can get this recording to work. Mr. Scott if you don't mind, if you could tell me your full name and when and where you were born.

SCOTT: Harry Burgoyne Scott Jr. I was born in Lexington, Kentucky February the 27th 1926.

SMITH: 1926, okay, okay. And uh, when we were talking earlier, you're a third generation horseman?

SCOTT: Third generation horseman. I did leave out the fact that my 00:08:00grandfather on my mother's side of the family had trotting horses.

SMITH: Really?

SCOTT: Yes. He had trotting horses and sold them out at one time to market them but they went down to nothing.

SMITH: And what was his name?

SCOTT: John Yarrington, Y-a-r-r-i-n-g-t-o-n. He had been Vice President and General Manager of this division of the C & O Railroad.

SMITH: Okay, ah.

SCOTT: And when he retired, the employees of the railroad took up a collection to give him a gift and they couldn't decide whether to give him a carriage and four white horses or a chest of silver. Fortunately, they, they gave him the chest of silver (Smith laughs) and it's a serving of twelve of everything you could want in silver.

SMITH: Oh my.

SCOTT: I have the chest of silver.

SMITH: Do you really? Now this would have been how long ago?

SCOTT: Well, the, uh, he would have retired sometime in the early part of the--

SMITH: --century?--

SCOTT: --century.

SMITH: Okay, huh, huh that's great.

SCOTT: My third generation, three generations Thoroughbred is on the, my father's father Daniel Webster Scott who had many farms in the Clark County neighborhood of Pine Grove and in fact he had a horse that was third in the Kentucky Derby, Son of John.

SMITH: Hum.

SCOTT: And then my father was interested in Thoroughbreds and got into the business and managed for Colonel Phil T. Chinn from 1925 until '29 and then for one year he was operating a farm he was leasing. And then he was invited, asked to be manager of Faraway Farm, offered the job, 00:10:00and he became manager of Faraway Farm in the fall of 1930.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: And that's where my knowledge and connection with Man o' War begins.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: I was only four years old, but I used to go, ride down to Faraway a lot with my father. And you must remember this was Depression time. And on, particularly on Sundays, the entrance to Faraway would be lin-, practically lined with cars from all over the country wasn't just around here; it was cars from all the various states. And they had a book that they asked people to sign and someone, I've forgotten how many names they counted for a one year period that visited the horse. There was all a love of the horse and Man o' War he was a hero to, to 00:11:00the people.

SMITH: Now he retired

SCOTT: As a three year old.

SMITH: And that was in the 20's; early 20's?

SCOTT: Yes, uh, Mr. Riddle said that he would have raced Man o' War on as a four year old but one of the handicappers from New York said, "Well I'll stop the horse so he will be beat. I'll put enough weight on him that he can't carry it." And Mr. Riddle said, "I'm willing for Man o' War to carry any reasonable weight, but you're not going to punish the horse." And the handicapper said, "You can't stop me." Mr. Riddle said, "Oh yes I can, I'm retiring the horse. I won't have my horse abused."

SMITH: Um, what a shame.

SCOTT: Yes it was, it was a shame; it would have certainly been interesting--

SMITH: --yeah--

SCOTT: --to, to see, and, and 'cause horses then went on and were raced more. 'Course today the prices of these, they don't want to take the 00:12:00chance that something could happen to them and they can syndicate them at three for millions of dollars, it's uh. Here is where I think the horse business has changed. When I first knew it, the people that owned the horses were interested in it as a sport. The horses were the athletes of the sport same as the football players and the basketball players today, but they were the athletes. Today, the people are more interested in the money and I think, uh, some ego of "I've got the best horse." Now obviously the, there are a great many people that still are doing it for the sport. An example of sportsmanship, a friend of mine 00:13:00was sitting in a box next to the Greentree box at Saratoga, this was several years ago, Mr. Whitney's sister was in the box and they had a horse, this was a major stake race, and the Greentree horse and another horse were nose and nose all the way around the track and the other horse got it right at the last and won the race. And Mrs. Payson turned to someone in the box and said, "My, wasn't that a magnificent race?" Her horse had just gotten beaten, but she was, appreciated it for the quality of the race of two horses out there fighting it out and the other horse got it at the, right at the last. I don't know how often you have an owner say that today. I, I'm afraid to say it.

SMITH: Not very many.

SCOTT: No.

SMITH: Huh, um. Um, I've got lots of questions about Man o' War, but I 00:14:00also have some, we're going to go back a little bit to your grandfather and your father. Now did your grand-, your father work with his dad on the farm? Had he helped his father?

SCOTT: He, dad operated uh, farms of his own.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: He was leasing farms over in Mercer County then came back to Fayette County and leased farms here. Uh, and uh

SMITH: Now I think you told me earlier your grandfather died, uh, about 1926?

SCOTT: Six, the year I was born.

SMITH: Okay, okay. And where was your father at that time?

SCOTT: He was here in Lexington.

SMITH: Okay. Oh, with Colonel Chinn at that point.

SCOTT: Yes.

SMITH: Okay. Okay.

SCOTT: Dad always said that Colonel Chinn was the best judge of a horse.

SMITH: Uh huh.

SCOTT: That he'd ever seen. He had a horse, uh, he said he could walk 00:15:00around a horse once and see more than most people walking around it five times.

SMITH: Now what did your dad do with Colonel Chinn? What was his job exactly?

SCOTT: All right, it was managing Colonel Chinn had, I've forgotten the number of farms, he had the place where the training center is now was, that was his home and base farm. He had a farm up here leased on the Russell Cave Pike. He had part, part of Mount Brilliant leased. He had part of uh, Runnymede leased. He would take a hundred yearlings of his own to Saratoga every year.

SMITH: My goodness.

SCOTT: They would have, there was a special train for the Chinn yearlings going to Saratoga. And uh, for the years dad was with him, Colonel Chinn topped the sale at Saratoga, every year.

SMITH: My goodness. Was he

SCOTT: He was quite a man, quite good at telling stories, uh, some of them were hard to believe. One of the stories about Colonel Chinn is he had a horse that, The Lexington, old Lexington track here and they moved the eighth pole and made the horse look like he was running faster than he was (Scott laughs). Colonel Chinn denied that, he says, "Oh, I would not do such a thing. No never would Chinn do such a thing." (Smith laughs) But nobody ever knew the story. There was a movie based on the thing, forgotten the name of the movie, but I have seen it.

SMITH: How long ago would that have been?

SCOTT: Would have been in the 40's I think.

SMITH: Okay, let me see if I can dig that up, huh. So what do you think? Do you think he did it?

SCOTT: I don't know.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: I, I wouldn't put it past the Colonel. My father said when the Japanese first started coming over here, he said Colonel Chinn would be the first to learn to speak Japanese. And, and so he could talk to them.

SMITH: He was the business man.

SCOTT: Oh very, very definitely a business man. And, and, uh, one, one that sold of a lot of yearlings and bought them all back one year, oh yes.

SMITH: Really?

SCOTT: Oh yes, if they didn't bring Chinn's price. You see he'd have a set so he could sell, sell, tell that somebody coming on, "Well he went through the sales at so much and I had to take him back for some reason, but, but he's worth this much." So this was, oh in the 40's and 50's, prices weren't anything like they were today. "Well that 00:18:00yearling bought five thousand dollars, but you want him, I'll let you have him for four thousand dollars. I'll knock a ----------(??) dollar off what I was offered; I'll just lose that thousand dollars." He was a good sales man.

SMITH: Sounds like it, sounds like it.

SCOTT: He was a, he was a masterful salesman.

SMITH: Did you know him very well?

SCOTT: Quite well, quite well. He always called me boy. "Boy." He'd look at the year-, he'd come over here and look at the yearlings. We had a yearling once that had a fault that, in standing, was standing very badly. Dad told the man handling him, says, "I'll give you a present if you teach him to stand up like he should." So he had taught him to stand up by hit-, just slapping him on a shoulder the horse would stand up, and look much better. Colonel Chinn would come over 00:19:00and look at the horses before they'd go to the sales just out of fun. And the man brought the horse out and tapped him on the shoulder and Colonel Chinn looked at him and says, "Boy lead him up again, would ya?" He did and he hit him on the shoulder and the horse straightened up. Colonel Chinn says, "Boy, this time lead him up and don't hit him on the shoulder." And he says, "You've done a good job." He says, "That's all right," he says, "there's nothing wrong with what you've done, but," he says, "I couldn't figure out why you were hitting him on the shoulder. You did it so smoothly." (Smith laughs) But he says, "I knew something wrong." And nobody else caught it, nobody else saw that, ever saw it. It was nothing that hurt the horse it was just to make him look better when he was standing somebody was looking at him. And, and, and all, it looked like they were hitting at a fly (Smith laughs).

SMITH: That's pretty good. That's pretty good if that works.

SCOTT: And so uh

SMITH: Now did your dad work for Colonel Chinn for what four years? '25 -- '29?

SCOTT: '25 -- '29.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: And, uh, he left, Chinn was having very serious financial problems. Dad said though the thing that hurt Colonel Chinn worse wasn't so much what he owed as what was owed him. Such as you could go to Colonel Chinn and says, "I like that yearling you got over there, but Colonel I just can't pay for him right now and so I guess I can't." "Oh go ahead, Kim, and take the horse and when he runs you can pay me for it." And he had a lot of horses out like that and he wasn't getting the money.

SMITH: Well that doesn't sound like a very good business decision.

SCOTT: Well, it was good at the time he made it because every thing was 00:21:00rosy and you see and then the Depression came and everything dropped. And um

SMITH: Okay. So did he struggle through the Depression, Colonel Chinn?

SCOTT: Oh yes, yes he lost his farm. And uh, but never lost his dignity. He was what you would think of the old Kentucky Colonel; man of great dignity and, and he had dignity and he was proud of what he had done

SMITH: Yeah.

SCOTT: He said he sent horses to Sara-, to California once. Told his trainer, his trainer he said, "Now deal with the biggest feed dealer out there. He won't press us for money as fast as a small man will." And he said when he got to California he had twenty-five, he had five, five dollar bills in his pocket, went to the biggest hotel there in 00:22:00Los Angeles at the time and he called and got five bell boys and gave them each five dollars which was a lot of money then. He says, "Please announce that Colonel Phil T. Chinn's here with his horses." And he says, "It went out like a king had arrived." And he, he held court and he borrowed from one to pay another (Scott laughs). And he says that things finally straightened out. And uh

SMITH: He sounds like quite a character.

SCOTT: Oh he was. It's too bad that someone didn't tape Colonel Chinn; the stories that he told.

SMITH: Yeah. I don't think, I don't think. When did he pass away?

SCOTT: My father died in '71 and Colonel Chinn died a little time after 00:23:00that.

SMITH: I'm, I'll look that up. Maybe somebody has and I'll just have to see if we can find it, dig it out. Okay.

SCOTT: He was a, a great man. A lot of people talked about him because of his shenanigans the way he, he operated. There wasn't anything illegal about it. He was a good sales man. He was a good sales man. A lot of the, some of the present, they're gone now, so I shouldn't talk about some of the people that have been leading sellers for horses. They use some of the same tactics that Colonel Chinn did. Little different twist and it worked, they made money, and all.

SMITH: What were some of those tactics? Like what?

SCOTT: Oh it was just the showmanship and, and having people there that they could really tell them what to buy and, and "I'd like for you, here's the horse that you ought to buy. This horse is going to be a great race horse." Course nobody knows what's going to be a great race horse. You, you can't look at a horse and then tell.

SMITH: Right, right; except for some, except for a couple of them right? Man o' War? Um

SCOTT: Well Man o' War when he was sold at Saratoga, only brought five thousand dollars. Now that same year at Saratoga, the Jeffords bought a yearling the same age, I mean a yearling that year with Man o' War, for fifteen thousand, that unfortunately had to run second to Man o' War; or third to Man o' War a lot of the time, all of the time.

SMITH: Uh huh.

SCOTT: Golden Broom, he was a beautiful horse.

SMITH: And he was owned by the Jeffords?

SCOTT: Jeffords.

SMITH: So he was at the farm at Faraway?

SCOTT: Yes and they had, when dad went down there, they had uh, also two sons of Man o' War, American Flag and Crusader,

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: were there on the farm and there was Golden Boom and a horse called Mars belonged to the Jeffords was a son of Man o' War. Been a good race horse, but not a great race horse, but a good race horse and retired to the stud and that uh, not a, not a great sire, unfortunately.

SMITH: Okay. Now um, did your dad want to leave Colonel Chinn or just the economics of the?

SCOTT: Econom-, economics of it.

SMITH: Okay. Now how did he end up at Faraway? How did he get there?

SCOTT: Uh, the Jeffords were look, and Riddles were looking for someone 00:26:00and a friend of dad called him and said uh, come up uh, he had told him what was available, that this was available as always it was very quiet and said, "They want to make a change, I think you would be the one, I can get you an appointment." And dad said, went to, went to Philadelphia and met them and was there a day or two, and uh, told him what he wanted in money and they accepted it and accepted the fact that he would continue to operate his own farm.

SMITH: Um, hum. What was the name of your dad's farm?

SCOTT: He never named it.

SMITH: Oh okay.

SCOTT: Uh, dad bought Shandon Farm in 1939.

SMITH: Oh okay.

SCOTT: It had been owned by the Nash Brothers from Chicago. They were 00:27:00road contract or contractors and uh

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: That's uh, to me an interesting story. They'd had it on the market for five hundred an acre in, in 1939 which everybody thought was too high. And dad had a friend in the real estate business that tried to get them, but the Nash's said, "No, five hundred, that's our price." So dad finally called them one day and told them, said, "I'm interested in your farm, uh, but I can't pay five hundred an acre for it." Uh, they, they said, "Well what are you going to do with the farm?" And dad says, says "You going to keep it for horse farm?" Dad said "Certainly," he says, "I want it, a horse farm that's what it's fixed for." "Well we will take less. We have been offered five hundred, but the buyer 00:28:00was going to turn it back into just a dirt farm and we don't want to see that done." One of the brothers had stayed down here and supervised a lot of the work on the farm, so they felt they would destroy, would be destroying their brother's work. And dad made them an offer on the farm after a day or two of discussion, they agreed on a price.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: It was, sixty-five thousand for the farm, so it'd be three hundred and twenty-five an acre--

SMITH: --okay--

SCOTT: --two hundred acres.

SMITH: Still sounds like a lot for those days but uh.

SCOTT: It was a lot of money.

SMITH: It was a good farm?

SCOTT: Good farm. And uh, the farm as you see it today needs a lot of work on it and the reason it needs a lot of work I got in the urban service area in 1996. Not with the idea that I was going to sell it, but it would be available for developmental land. Uh, and since then 00:29:00people have been after me and made offers on it, we never could get together until two years ago. I got together with a man on it, uh, and, uh, we agreed on it. He went before the planning commission uh, and got a vote of uh, I think I'm right, six to three; they were doing it provided he made some changes to his plan. He looked it over, made the changes, went back later, and by that time there was opposition to any residential development north of the interstate highway--

SMITH: --okay--

SCOTT: --and enough evidence was offered that the vote changed to nine 00:30:00against, three in favor. That's a big change.

SMITH: That is a big change.

SCOTT: A lot of pressure was put on the, the board. Now I've been told by a member of the family who's on a planning staff in Colorado, that when a proposal is made only the planning commission that's there that day and hears the hearing and hears all the evidence presented can vote on it later. None of the planning staff, a commission that wasn't there have a vote on a set, and I think that's fair. I think because the ones that hear it first know all the details and, and things can be said in a meeting that may not be down in writing, but it did change. 00:31:00So, I wasn't spending a lot of money on maintenance and now its place has been sold to a man that's going to maintain it as a horse farm.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: There's quite difference in the price between a subdivision and a horse farm.

SMITH: I can imagine.

SCOTT: But I'm at the age now I can't, I can, I could've managed it from my office, but I don't want to do it that way. And a lot of thing it's, it's just a different world today. It's hard. I was boarding horses and I had a good client, but uh, there they had to move away to get stud, stud fees; had stallions they wanted and all, you know. Were 00:32:00told we'd like to board your mares and uh, so I lost clients. It's just part of the game.

SMITH: So you're not op-, is the farm operating right now?

SCOTT: No.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: Farm hasn't really operated for over a year.

SMITH: Okay, okay.

SCOTT: I boarded horses for the, the Jeffords. He finally, Jeff, finally moved all his horses, mares, up here. Didn't have that many left, but I boarded them here. Until his death in 1990, and then Kay got out of the horse business.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: She had an, when she got out, when Jeff died, he had a two year old colt here. Couldn't decide what to do with him and I told Kay I said, "This colt has never been broken, he needs to be put with somebody and broken." "Sally wants the horse to make a, a show jumper out of. 00:33:00It's a nice big horse and." So I said, "Well that's fine." So she gave it to Sally and we shipped the horse up to Pennsylvania and the young lady that got him couldn't handle him. And just told Sally that she couldn't do anything with the horse. And so gave her back to Kay and Kay got a trainer up there; they had seen the horse and would've liked him and made a championship steeplechase horse out of him.

SMITH: Really?

SCOTT: He ended up winning over, and I've forgotten how many years it, Lonesome Glory raced. But he, he won over a million dollars.

SMITH: Oh okay.

SCOTT: And the most any uh, steeplechase horse had won up to that time was six hundred thousand.

SMITH: So when were the, when was this?

SCOTT: This was in the 90's.

SMITH: 1990 okay. Huh.

SCOTT: This was the 90's.

SMITH: And that was the last Jeffords' horse you had?

SCOTT: Oh I had one or two others after; had some mares after that until she, Kay decided she wanted to sell out, get out of the business

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: Said she liked the steeplechase business better than she did the flat business (Smith laughs).

SMITH: How come?

SCOTT: I've heard that from people before it's, they say there's a difference in its, it's, everybody's kind of friendlier and, and uh, more of a country fair atmosphere.

SMITH: Uh huh.

SCOTT: Then what you get at a race track.

SMITH: Now is the Kay daughter of?

SCOTT: Kay is, was Walter Jeffords Junior's wife.

SMITH: And Sally, who was Sally?

SCOTT: Sally was Kay and Jeff's; when I say Jeff I'm speaking of Walter 00:35:00Jeffords Jr.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: Sally was their daughter.

SMITH: Okay, okay. So you had a champion steeplechaser.

SCOTT: Yeah.

SMITH: Is that the only one you ever had that was doing the steeplechase?

SCOTT: Yes, the only horse I've ever had that was a, turned steeplechase.

SMITH: Did you ever see him race?

SCOTT: Yes, saw him race and win out here at Keeneland. I thought the horse was so far back he couldn't, but when he started moving it was the most beautiful thing you ever saw, you just saw he was gaining on these other horses. The other horses were running, you know, running hard, but Lonesome just kept on moving up; that race and the Kentucky Derby when uh, Citation won it.

SMITH: You were there?

SCOTT: I was there. Mr. Jeffords Sr. had gotten a box for the Derby. 00:36:00Ah, (Scott coughs) he would, couldn't come, gave the box to my father and my father gave my brother three tickets and gave a fellow and my wife and I three tickets. And it was a third floor front row box 'cause of Mr. Jeffords Sr.'s importance in the racing. On one side was the chairman of the board of U.S. Steel and on the other side was someone of equal importance in racing ----------(??). But, but you could see nobody could get in front of you. And you were up high enough you could see the whole thing all the way around. And they, they broke and Coal Town got up front, got a good distance, I said, "Citation will never catch him." And he kept running and Citation started moving and gaining on Coal Town and finally caught him and, and 00:37:00went on to win the Kentucky Derby. But it was beautiful. There again the power of this horse moving not, you know, like a--

SMITH: --not in a hurried step [moves arm to show horse running]--

SCOTT: --a desperate thing, but one foot in front of the other. And he got it. That was a beautiful race to see.

SMITH: Um. Are there other races that stand out in your mind?

SCOTT: Those two races really stand out in my mind; Lonesome Glory here at Keeneland and Citation winning the Kentucky Derby. It was something to see Secretariat win the Belmont.

SMITH: Were you there?

SCOTT: No I wasn't there, but I saw it on television.

SMITH: Yeah.

SCOTT: And, and to see that; he was a magnificent horse.

SMITH: Um hum. Did you ever see him race?

SCOTT: Oh yes. We used to go see, I had people wanted to breed to him. 00:38:00And uh, we had the, Walter Jeffords Jr., had the first foal born by uh--

SMITH: --Secretariat--

SCOTT: --Secretariat. He had a friend that had bought a share in him. The friend says, "You got some good mares, better mares than mine, uh, can we make a deal?" Jeff says, "Yes if I get to be the first, first year." And so we picked a mare and I thought she would be early breeding which she was. I thought she would have a foal in a, January. Talk about having a heart attack, I almost had one. My night watchman 00:39:00called me, uh, was, but then I realized it was not New Year's Eve it was New Year's night, so we were into the New Year.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: And the mare had a foal and she was, she was seventeen days early.

SMITH: Oh my (Smith laughs).

SCOTT: I was, I was ----------(??) but I called my veterinarian I said, he was at a party, I said, "You come on out here I want you to see this foal and see that it's a new born foal, and if there's any question, you have seen it and can tell it." And uh,

SMITH: Who was your vet back then? Who did you use?

SCOTT: Jim Smith.

SMITH: Okay, okay. So how, who what was the foals name? What did it, did it ever do much with the?

SCOTT: No.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: No. No. Never did much. I, sometimes we wonder with these 00:40:00horses that are supposed to do so much if they try them too far, too hard too fast, trying to make them run fast early and, and ask a little too much of them, but they may just not be good horses anyway.

SMITH: Oh okay.

SCOTT: Nobody knows.

SMITH: Huh, um. All right let's go, lets go back again to when your dad was at, he went to Faraway in 1930, and, was he the farm manager?

SCOTT: Yes.

SMITH: Okay, what, what kind of responsibilities did he have as the farm manager?

SCOTT: They hold, supervising the whole operation of the farm was roughly a thousand acres at that time. And handling the, the uh, breeding and who can breed to the, the studs down there, all but Man o' War. Mr. Riddle handled that. He would decide who he wanted to 00:41:00breed. Sometimes his decisions were rather unusual or his own, he had his own ideas and, and he would sometimes not be happy about somebody and wouldn't let them breed the horse.

SMITH: Um, what did your dad think about his breeding practices with Man o' War?

SCOTT: Dad said that had Man o' War stand at Claiborne Farm uh, as an open stud, he probably would have made a record that maybe never been broken.

SMITH: So he was a good sire?

SCOTT: He was a good sire--

SMITH: --okay--

SCOTT: --even with, there were some bad mares being bred to him.

SMITH: But your dad had worked with all the other horses including Man o' War's?

SCOTT: Two, two sons and the Jeffords' horses, he had to take care of all of that. Of course, in the 30's there wasn't all the paperwork 00:42:00that had to go along with, with, with breeding as you have today. There, there's so much paperwork and, and so much contracts. Contracts used to be basically, literally just a half a page. I'll breed my mare to your stallion for "X" number of dollars and that's all it was. The two parties signed it and, and that was it.

SMITH: When did that start changing?

SCOTT: It started changing in the, in the 40's. No, the first time I ran into anything, uh, I was talking to someone and he said, "You got to put in there Thoroughbred mare." I said, "Why?" He said he had the 00:43:00contract that just said mare and somebody signed it to breed a mare to his stallion he had on his farm and a fellow brought a uh, a Quarter Horse mare. And he said, "No I'm not going to breed her." He said, "Oh yes you are too." He says, "You didn't say it had to be a Thoroughbred mare." And the fellow talked to his attorney and the fellow says, "The man's right. You've got to let him breed her." And so people are getting.

SMITH: Started getting more complicated.

SCOTT: More, more complicated. And then with the, the uh, disease we've had, the CEM, and, and all, ----------(??) disease of all the forms we've had to have and testing of the mares and veterinarian certificates about the soundness of the mare and the health of the mare it really got, you had to be very, very careful.

SMITH: Okay. What was CEM, what was that?

SCOTT: Contagious Equine Metritis.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: And they, they found if a mare showed positive with a simple operation, they could take away the source of the problem.

SMITH: But had that been a real problem for awhile?

SCOTT: Yeah, well it all came out I don't know how it started. But it all just broke suddenly and nobody knew what it was.

SMITH: When was this?

SCOTT: What it, nobody knew exactly what it was and how to handle it and they, they actually stopped breeding for awhile.

SMITH: When was this?

SCOTT: This was in the late 70's or early 80's I think.

SMITH: Oh, okay.

SCOTT: They, they didn't, they stopped for, oh I don't know, maybe a month.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: And, uh. They, they had a big meeting out at Keeneland; uh, state veterinarians, federal veterinarians, some of our leading veterinarians, Bill McGee was there. The next day when I read in the paper about it, I decided that reporter that wrote the article and I were at two different meetings.

SMITH: Oh really?

SCOTT: It was that far, they were that far wrong on what they printed and they had to change it around and, and uh, get somebody that could, could write about the horse business.

SMITH: They had to retract what they said huh?

SCOTT: And they uh, they're very fortunate to have Maryjean Wall. She's 00:46:00very knowledgeable about horses. And it's nice to talk to someone like that.

SMITH: Yeah I've talked with her she's great.

SCOTT: Oh yeah, you, you've met a good person to talk to. I'm sure she's got lots of stories.

SMITH: She does and she knows lots of people with stories, so she's been great to talk to. So when your dad, he started there in 1930, so you were four years old, now where were you all living? Where was the family living? At the--

SCOTT: --just across Faulkner Road down here where my brother's living now, that was my dad's farm. He had two, two hundred and fifty acres there. And then he bought this one had one hundred and fifty acres. And then at my father's death in, in 1971 from an automobile accident, 00:47:00uh, Dan got that farm, part of the farm and I got Shandon.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: It was in dad's will that was the way it was to be. Dad and mother's will. And uh, dad was killed at North Broadway and New Circle. Well he didn't die that day. He died several days later. He was hit, he was making a left hand turn and the car was coming down New Circle and hit him. No one knows who ran the red light. Did my father run it or did the other car? And the thing that complicated matters, oh he was a coroner at the time, he was the first official at the and he said there were two men in the car that hit dad and the seat had come up so the man was pinned against the steering wheel. 00:48:00When they got him out he said, "Oh I wasn't driving, my brother was driving." He said they both had lost part of the time and they thought they were back down the road several miles. He said apparently they had switched positions and neither one remembered it and they both, both were preachers, so no reason not to believe them. But, but the gentleman told me he said there was no way that man that said that his brother was driving. His brother couldn't have been driving because his brother was in the passenger seat.

SMITH: Strange.

SCOTT: He was behind the wheel, but he said he suffered a concussion and lost all memory of that. My father had no memory of it. No memory uh, just uh.

SMITH: But he was severely injured?

SCOTT: Injured yes. Severely injured and uh.

SMITH: How old was your dad then?

SCOTT: Dad was, oh thir-, uh fifteen days, thirteen, twelve days from being seventy, wait a minute, he died in '71. Not, not '71, '61, '61.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: In '61 he was seventy four.

SMITH: Okay so he died in '61.

SCOTT: '61 yes.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: And so Dan operated his. Dan raced primarily. He loved racing.

SMITH: Now he's your younger brother?

SCOTT: Older. He's my half brother. His mother died when, when Dan was just a baby. Uh, that's when dad was living in Mercer County.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: And then he moved to, back over here and had land leased and ended up leasing part of my grandfather's farm.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: And, and uh--

SMITH: --your grandfather on your father's side?--

SCOTT: --on mother's side.

SMITH: On mother's side, okay. What was your mother's name?

SCOTT: Yarrington, Julia Emma Yarrington--

SMITH: --okay--

SCOTT: Y-a-r-r-i-n-g-t-o-n. And in seeing my grandfather, how he met mother they fell in love and all and were married and, and they lived in the house where Dan, that's where, the house I grew up in. I was thirteen when we bought this and we moved over here.

SMITH: Okay so how much older is he then you?

SCOTT: He's ten years older.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: He's ninety two. He's in poor health now; very poor health and all but uh,

SMITH: And he liked racing. Now didn't I read who told me that he, he 00:51:00foaled Native Dancer, is that right?

SCOTT: Yes.

SMITH: That's pretty successful.

SCOTT: Yes.

SMITH: Okay let's go back to your dad at Faraway now, when he got there how big of an operation was that then? Was both the Jeffords' Farm and the Riddles'?

SCOTT: Riddles. A thousand acres. The number of mares I, I truthfully, I don't know, but I'm guessing based on the number of mares the Jeffords had later on, uh, they probably had someplace between twenty and thirty mares each.

SMITH: Okay. Okay. Now was that considered a good size for that time period?

SCOTT: Yes, it was considered a good size.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: 'Course not as big as some of the commercial operations. But 00:52:00there were a lot more privately owned farms. I mean Dixiana that was the show place of show places.

SMITH: Was it?

SCOTT: Oh yes. They even told a story that Mr. Fisher came into a hardware store and saw the gravity latches that's used on the doors uh, and he says I want to take those back to the factory and have them made in brass. So it, they took them out and took a set off the doors; they didn't have any for sale then. They had a display and took the display down and gave it to, but to put it up on display they drilled an extra hole. So they came out, Mr. Fisher gave it to the factory and says, "Duplicate this in brass." And when it came out with this hole in it he says, "What's that?" "Well it was in the sample you gave us." Then 00:53:00he thought, "Oh that's okay." And he told them out on the farm, "If anybody asks what it is tell them it's an oil hole (both laugh)." He said, not, not only was it a mistake he says, "Tell them that, it was an oil hole." So that was the story they told on Mr. Fisher. But you had families like the Fishers and the Wideners owning, and the, the Whitneys owning the big farms. And then in, in up to '41 when we got in the war, the yearling, the big yearling sales was Saratoga; everybody shipped, shipped their horses to Saratoga. Uh, then they stated out here at Keeneland. I remember the first one was uh, kind of where the 00:54:00pavilion is now; people were standing on that slope going down to it and all around and the horses were there. And it certainly has grown. Course at that time, uh, they formed the Breeders Sales Company. And then oh much later, which was a cooperative venture. Much later, federal government says the Board of Directors of Breeder Sales Company and the Board of the Directors of Keeneland, a lot of link, linkage between the two,uh, "We advise you to merge or we will merge you."

SMITH: Oh okay.

SCOTT: And so they merged and uh, and it's really worked out great for 00:55:00everybody because they, Keeneland's run a great sales company.

SMITH: Oh yes.

SCOTT: And very cooperative with you.

SMITH: Did you sell a lot of horses there?

SCOTT: Sold a lot of horses there, so we sold in 19-, what, fifty, I don't know whether it was '52 or '62, I sold the second highest filly that had ever been sold up to that time; fifty-nine thousand to show you what the market was. That was the second highest priced filly that had ever been sold at public auction in the United States was sixty thousand dollars. And, uh

SMITH: I imagine that felt pretty good?

SCOTT: Yes, yes that was a lot of money then, fifty-nine thousand dollars.

SMITH: What's the most you ever sold a horse for?

SCOTT: The fifty-nine thousand,

SMITH: Fifty-nine thousand. Okay.

SCOTT: fifty-nine thousand.

SMITH: What was the horses name?

SCOTT: What did we name that filly?

SMITH: It was just a yearling then?

SCOTT: It was just a yearling.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: We never named the yearlings. Very few of the commercial breeders would name them thinking that the owners, you know, would want to name them. And I, I think it was the right decision because if you bought something you would like to have the right to name it. Now Man o' War was named when he was sold as a yearling.

SMITH: Um, hum. Now he was owned by August Belmont?

SCOTT: Belmont.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: And he was having a dispersal sale, his yearlings, because of the war I think. That's what I've always heard.

SMITH: That's what I've read. Now um, when your dad came to the farm in 00:57:001930, did you go out there a lot with him?

SCOTT: Oh yes, quite often--

SMITH: --okay--

SCOTT: --in particular on weekends.

SMITH: Even as a very young child?

SCOTT: Pardon?

SMITH: Even as a very young child?

SCOTT: Very young child I'd go, go, go down there and, and all.

SMITH: What, can you remember some of your first experiences with horses?

SCOTT: First experience I recall is riding an old grey work horse. Old Grey is an unusual name for a grey horse (both laugh), Old Grey. In riding him, my father would buy me ponies and, but wanted me to ride. I never enjoyed riding.

SMITH: Really?

SCOTT: No I never really enjoyed riding. He did. He kept a horse at Faraway to ride and he'd ride all over the farm. And, but he, and 00:58:00then, one thing he required of his horse was a horse that would let him ride up to a gate and lean over and unfasten the gate and then push it open and then push it back. He said he didn't want to get, be getting up and down off the horse. And he had a horse and the horse finally died, but that was the, the stipulation and any horse had to be able to ride up and stand still by a gate while dad opened it.

SMITH: Now you didn't like to ride, but did you like the horses?

SCOTT: I loved the horses. Oh yes, I loved the horses and I worked with them, worked with them and uh, soon as I got old enough, I've done about everything there is to do on a farm; drive a tractor, mow, clean stalls, ----------(??) manure. My father says if you don't do 00:59:00it you can't tell somebody else how to do it. And that experience paid off for me when I took over at Faraway. Um, I was just driving down there in a car and one day the men at one of the barns we were turning mares with foals out in the afternoon and they were cleaning the stalls then and they couldn't get, weren't through. And I says, "You weren't through?" "Oh no sir this takes a long time." I said, "Now wait a minute, just 'cause you see me driving a car, don't think I haven't cleaned stalls and I know how long it should take you." "Well I don't know if we can do it any better." Well, I said, "We'll try tomorrow. And if you can do better that's all right and if you can't it's still 01:00:00alright, but then I'll give you a check for the time you've, the days you've worked here this time because I'll get somebody that can do that cause I know it can be done." They were through going down there late in the afternoon and they were all through in their work. Manure had been picked up and, and everything. They were going to try me.

SMITH: Um huh, um huh.

SCOTT: That's when I said I'd done it, wasn't any argument.

SMITH: That's right. Did you work on the farm as a youngster?

SCOTT: Yeah oh yes.

SMITH: At your dad's farm or did you also help out at Faraway?

SCOTT: No worked on, on this farm, worked on this farm.

SMITH: Now what was your dad's farm like at that time? Lets say the 1930's and early 40's?

SCOTT: Well, the farm over there looked very much like it did; this 01:01:00farm, when dad had bought it, all the fences were painted white and he wouldn't paint fences white. He said he thought that was a waste of money and he was natural. He, he honestly liked the natural fences better than the painted fences. And but this farm was fixed up quite well.

SMITH: Now was he just, was it just Thoroughbreds that he was working with or did he raise tobacco or do anything like that.

SCOTT: Oh yes he raised tobacco on that farm, on Dan's farm.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: He started raising tobacco in '33.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: And raised, raised tobacco, oh I think about ten to twelve acres of tobacco and built a barn over there to, to house it in; there wasn't any tobacco barn (Scott coughs) at the time. This is after he bought 01:02:00some of mother's nephews out of property they owned. They weren't doing much with it and dad offered them a good price at that time. Course compared to today's prices he'd say well, it wasn't nothing.

SMITH: Yeah.

SCOTT: The money was a different thing then, value.

SMITH: Um hum. Yeah particularly in that, that time period. Um, now did he have, was he raising horses for people; did he have clients?

SCOTT: Yes. He was boarding horses and he had horses of his own.

SMITH: About how many was he, did he have in those days?

SCOTT: Dad never had four or five or six mares--

SMITH: --okay--

SCOTT: --a little later on. Later on, in the late 30's Mr. Riddle complained he was having too many fillies, going to sell them. And dad 01:03:00says lets make a deal and uh, I'll lease them from you and Mr. Riddle wanted to be part of this so they worked it out where Mr. Riddle's partners he paid half the expenses and dad paid half the expenses. And dad got a certain percent, then they sold the produce of those.

SMITH: Of the fillies?

SCOTT: Fillies and sold them at Saratoga.

SMITH: Okay. That work out pretty well?

SCOTT: Worked out very well for all concerned. Mr. Riddle saved some nice broodmares and uh, they all made money.

SMITH: So what kind of a man was Mr. Riddle? What are your, what'd your dad, what'd your dad think of him as someone to work for?

SCOTT: Oh he was very nice. He had, had his own ways about wanting things in the way which he was entitled to. Sometimes you'd question the ways. My father if he was very opposed to it would tell Mr. 01:04:00Riddle about it, I. The house that burned down there at, at uh, Man o' War Farm now was, this was in the late 30's, this, they had built the stud barn. They'd had the party for Man o' War. The party was for his twentieth birthday, it had to be.

SMITH: I read it was his twenty first, but I've read some things that are wrong.

SCOTT: Well, the reason I say that, it was the year Cita-. it was in March before War Admiral won the Derby because Clem McCarthy who was the finest sports announcer at the time came down here to emcee the, the party [clock rings] they had and I can remember standing there 01:05:00near the door to the stall and Clem McCarthy said, "Man o' War is War Admiral going to win the Derby?" And with that the horses head went up and down (both laugh). "Happy" Chandler was there. "Happy" Chandler was running for senator I think, going to run, and he said, "Man o' War if you were registered would you vote for me (Scott laughs)?"

SMITH: And did the horse nod (both laugh)?

SCOTT: And the horse nodded.

SMITH: How many people came to that party? What do you remember?

SCOTT: Oh, it was, the stud barn was packed. They had a big, they had a cake baked and set carrots around it, it was a birthday cake for Man o' War. Of course he didn't get any of that. But uh--

SMITH: --but he got some carrots huh?

SCOTT: No. But he uh, he enjoyed it. I think he enjoyed the, the people around him. This was a new barn that uh, Mr. Riddle wanted built. Dad designed it with the stallion barn down there at Man o' War Farm. I've always thought it was a beautiful four stud barn, four stall barn with a breeding shed right there by it. Uh, changes in the horse business one of them that when I think about it really is a shock to me are the number of female veterinarians.

SMITH: Really?

SCOTT: Because I can remember and it hasn't been, oh it's been longer than I want to say, women were not allowed in the breeding shed; were not allowed to watch a, a breeding of a mare and stallion, oh no. Just 01:07:00uh, not, not at all and now to have these young ladies doing everything and, and working on the farm I think the stallion manager at Three Chimneys is a woman. These women veterinarians, I've had three and they're all, the three were good. One, the last one I had uh, Rhonda Rathgeber with Hagyard, Davidson, and McGee she's a partner in Hagyard now. She's as good as any veterinarian I've ever seen and I've seen some of the best. Bill McGee, I knew Dr. Dimock who was probably the father of, of mare examination and worked with the mares and culturing them and all. It used to be the veterinarian said, "Well I want to 01:08:00culture that mare." "Well there's no use, I don't have any dirty mares on my farm (both laugh)." But farm owners and managers came around to realize what they was talking about; they first said, "No I don't have dirty mares on my farm." But, but these veterinarians I can remember when Hagyard's was Hagyard, Davidson, and McGee; the three of them.

SMITH: Do you remember Dr. Charlie Hagyard?

SCOTT: Oh yes quite well. I remember Dr., Dr. Ed, Dr. Charlie's father.

SMITH: Oh okay.

SCOTT: We called Dr. Ed at the time I knew him he wasn't getting around too well and he had a driver that drove for him and you'd call and had something wrong with a horse, he'd come up and get out of the car and his driver would get this little folding stool and he'd sit on it and 01:09:00look at the horse and decide what ought to be done. Nice gentleman.

SMITH: Good vet?

SCOTT: Yeah, oh yes. He, Dr. Ed was a good vet. And Dr. Charlie was a good vet.

SMITH: Was that what everybody called him, Dr. Charlie?

SCOTT: Hum?

SMITH: Did everybody call him Dr. Charlie?

SCOTT: Dr. Charlie or Charlie. He was quite a fellow, he really was he was a good vet. Bill McGee was, now just on the average horse Bill didn't care, I mean he'd take care of it, but if you had a sick foal or a sick horse; we had a foal, I forgot now what was wrong with her, the foal was very, very weak. And he would come by, was coming back twice 01:10:00a day to see the foal, but he'd drive in three or four times a day just to look at the foal and see what he was doing, check his temperature and all. And he, I asked him once I said, "What do I tell the people what's wrong with the horse?" "Tell them I don't know." I said, "Oh come off of it you've got an idea." "No," he said, says "I found out every time I say possibly what's wrong with the foal, the foal gets well or dies one of the two real quick it had nothing to do with what I thought was wrong with it. So he says, "When I really don't know," he says, "I say I don't know." He says, "I'll do my best to help the horse," but he says, "I honestly don't know what's wrong."

SMITH: I interviewed him and, uh--

SCOTT: --oh McGee's, he aught to have some marvelous stories.

SMITH: He does. I think I probably need to talk to him again. He told me the story about Man o' War's death and I, he said that a lot of people say that he, he euthanized Man o' War and he said he didn't. Now do you remember that?

SCOTT: No I don't. We had, dad had no connection with the farm at that time.

SMITH: In the 40's? When did your dad?

SCOTT: Dad left Mr. Riddle about 19-, I mean '43 I would think--

SMITH: --okay--

SCOTT: --and this was '47.

SMITH: Okay, okay. How come your dad left?

SCOTT: Well they were dividing the farm up and he just thought it would be a little easier not to, you know, have, have the two separate farms to operate. Basically he'd been doing that, he just wanted to get out from under some of the pressure.

SMITH: So did he just quit working for Mr. Riddle or did?

SCOTT: Quit working for Mr. Riddle and uh, he said something to the 01:12:00Jeffords about it, he says, "I'm leaving Mr. Riddle I guess you want me to leave you too." And he said, "Oh no, we want you to stay." And uh--

SMITH: --okay, so he did.

SCOTT: But he stayed and they, besides employee/employer relationship, they were great friends.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: But Mr. Jeffords was the epitome of a gentleman. He was the epitome of a gentleman. And he hated, he was the steward of the Jockey Club and he wanted things done right. They had a rule that you couldn't use a commercial name for a horse. Well, uh, the movie, the, the play "Kiss Me Kate," uh, I don't know whether it opened 01:13:00in Philadelphia, but it was there in Philadelphia before it got to Broadway and Mr. Jeffords says, "Isn't that a cute name?" So he applied for the name "Kiss Me Kate" forgetting about the thing and later on he named, claimed it for a filly he had and she turned out to be a great race mare. And people said, "My, how did you come up with a name like that before it hit Broadway (both laugh)?" But he was rather flustered about it and there the horse was running he couldn't change the name, she was a great filly running and, and he, he couldn't change the name of the filly (Scott laughs).

SMITH: And the Jockey Club hadn't caught it?

SCOTT: No the Jockey, you see when he requested it, requested it, it was just a play that was testing out in, in Philadelphia may have gone to 01:14:00some place else first before it hit Broadway (Smith laughs).

SMITH: That's a good story. I'm going to check your mic real fast and then I'm going, do this without. No your doing fine.

SCOTT: Boring you and wearing you out with my.

SMITH: Oh absolutely not I just want to make sure we're not hitting your clothing because that's when I have trouble. All right I think we're okay. Let's talk a little bit more about Man o' War. Now when your dad came to the farm, by then Man o' War was still, was already pretty popular.

SCOTT: Oh yes.

SMITH: So people were coming to the farm to see him at that point. Now was that something Mr. Riddle encouraged?

SCOTT: No he didn't encourage it, but he didn't discourage it. I mean, he felt he had something the public wanted to see. Uh, and uh, dad 01:15:00brought, Will Harbut who was a stud man for Man o' War. Will had implied that he'd always taken care of Man o' War, that wasn't true. Uh, Will was working for dad when dad went down there as manager at Faraway. And he took Will down there in 1930.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: That was the how Will got the job. And Will had great tales. He'd elaborate on everything; the horse got bigger and bigger and greater and greater. Dad would go up there occasionally by the barn and Will was telling one of his tales, "Will, hush with all the extra. Just tell the people the truth about the horse. He's great enough at that and he doesn't know you to elaborate on it and make it bigger." And, and uh--

SMITH: --and well he became quite a part of the show.

SCOTT: Oh he was part of the show; he was part of the show. He was a good horseman and got along fine with Man o' War. And, and, they were buddies.

SMITH: Yeah.

SCOTT: And uh, but it, it still would be amazing. It's still amazing to me the number of people that came to see that horse. Course they were looking for something to, to hold on to. You know they, they had Jack Dempsey, they had Babe Ruth and others in sports uh, as heroes, so Man o' War was their hero. And, and they, they'd come and any, any celebrity of any kind that was there within, that ever came to Lexington wanted to see Man o' War. Oh yes. I, I can't name many, but 01:17:00they all did. Back in the 30's and 40's there was a show, uh, "Lum and Abner" and they had "Jot 'em Down Store"--

SMITH: --um hum. Heard of that--

SCOTT: --and so they stopped by there one day, they were here and they stopped in and went in and met the Terrell's that were running it and talked to Mr. Terrell and his brother. And they asked him, says "Can we name this "Jot 'em Down Store?" And he says, "Sure."

SMITH: Aw.

SCOTT: So they, that's where it got its name.

SMITH: So they were there to see Man o' War and stopped by?

SCOTT: They were there, they, they just stopped by. Whoever was driving uh, thought it would be interesting for them to meet this two, two real store operators. And, and then uh.

SMITH: So did they come, did people just come everyday, I mean, did the farm stay open for them?

SCOTT: The farm was open from about eight o'clock in the morning till four o'clock in the afternoon.

SMITH: It didn't disrupt the work of the farm?

SCOTT: No. It got, everybody got used to it and didn't pay any attention to it. Then on Sundays, cars, weekends, cars would be lined up down the, the driveway and, and up right to where you'd walk up to the stallion barn. It's really, uh, you don't see it anymore like that. The passion they had for the horse; the love of it.

SMITH: Um. Do you remember, um, being around Man o' War as a child? What did you think of the horse?

SCOTT: Oh, I loved him. I mean he was such a handsome, magnificent 01:19:00horse. Even as a child you could, you could see that, that here was something special.

SMITH: Did you ever ride him?

SCOTT: No.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: Uh, but he uh, no he as, as I told you earlier, I really believe that all great horses realize they are. And talking to Penny Chenery and, and all and her horse and Man o' War, Calumet and ----------(??). Course we boarded horses for, I jump from story to story.

SMITH: That's okay.

SCOTT: Mr. George Humphrey, he was Secretary of the Treasury under Eisenhower,

SMITH: Um, hum.

SCOTT: we boarded horses for him before he became. And he was down here 01:20:00once. There was something, meeting going on at Keeneland at, dinner, dinner meeting and I asked Mr. Humphrey he was coming, would he like to go and I got tickets for us. And I said, "Get us at a table with somebody that he'd enjoy." And they put us at a table with Olin Gentry and uh, Ben Jones.

SMITH: Oh.

SCOTT: And that was quite interesting. Olin Gentry said to Mr. Jones, says, "Ben, tell Mr. Humphrey how you had more problems with Coal Town how to rate him to come in second (Scott laughs) than you did Citation to win." Mr. Humphrey looked at him he says, "That's the most distressing story I've ever heard." He says, "I've, I've breed horses and just want to win occasionally." And he says, "Your worrying about how to cut, rate a horse to come in second (both laugh)." Mr. 01:21:00Jones kind of laughed and he says, says "It was a challenge," he says he'd like to do it if he could, but sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't.

SMITH: Huh, interesting. Calumet and Ben Jones its quite a legend in itself.

SCOTT: Oh yes, yes. It was a legend and something to see. Here, I didn't know him well, but he was always a very pleasant man to be around and all. Obviously a good, a great trainer. Did great things for them.

SMITH: Absolutely, absolutely.

SCOTT: I should be happy. It's a tragedy what happened to Calumet. That, its is the greatest tragedy and--

SMITH: --the first book I read when I got started on this project was 01:22:00"Wild Ride" and it was just amazing to, uh, to read what had happened to Calumet, but--

SCOTT: --they apparently had a great deal of money.

SMITH: And some bad business decisions. Um, let's talk about a couple other horses that were there on the farm. Do you remember War Admiral?

SCOTT: Oh yes. He was a little, Mr., that's one mare that dad asked Mr. Riddle to breed to Man o' War, Brushup to Man o' War. But dad said the only person that thought he was going to be a great race horse was Walter Jeffords. And Mr. Riddle didn't care for him he was just a little old brown yearling and Mr. Jeffords had a very fancy looking Man o' War colt out of one of his good mares. Mr. Riddle says, "Let's trade." And Mr. Jeffords said, "I'll think about it." Dad was talking 01:23:00to him later and said, "Why don't you go and trade it?" And he says, "Family's have enough problems staying happy." He says, "If I traded with Sam and that horse turned out to be a great race horse," he says, "he'd never speak to the family again and I'd never get to breed to Man o' War again (Scott laughs)." And so he says, "No," he says, "I'll keep my." And so Mr. Jeffords horse didn't turn out. I was talking to Preston Burch; I boarded horses for Preston Burch and known Elliott for years. Uh, and he told the same story he says, he'd been down and seen the yearlings and this was a grand, he was a pretty horse; pretty chestnut with white, some white legs and Mr. Burch says he didn't 01:24:00think he was going to be anything of a race horse and says he wasn't much, much of a race horse. But Mr. Riddle, Mr. Riddle kept Man o', War Admiral and of course that's tales, ends up, was a great horse.

SMITH: Absolutely. Do you remember his race against Sea Biscuit?

SCOTT: I wasn't there, my father was there. Number one they raced on the wrong track. War Admiral didn't like Pimlico. He didn't like it; it was a deep track and he didn't like a deep track, but they got Mr. Riddle to run him on it. If they'd run on uh, Belmont, dad felt it'd been a different story.

SMITH: Really?

SCOTT: But and I've, I've had stories told on Tom Smith the way he 01:25:00trained Sea Biscuit, schooled him. That I wouldn't want published because it's tales I've heard that get out and everybody would be mad about it.

SMITH: Okay, we won't, we won't put that on tape then.

SCOTT: He was a smart trainer, I mean there was nothing illegal about it and all, but he, he just trained him.

SMITH: Differently.

SCOTT: Differently. And, and schooled him differently and.

SMITH: So how hard was it on uh, Mr. Riddle to?

SCOTT: Huh?

SMITH: How hard was it on Mr. Riddle to see, to have that loss? Does your dad remember, tell tales of that?

SCOTT: He, they were, they, Mr. Riddle and Mr. Jeffords both were 01:26:00very, very sensible about it. They, they realize that you were dealing with a live machine and they could get, get sick and, or break a leg or injure themselves someway. And of course uh, here again veterinary medicine has changed a lot in the way we worm horses and, and uh, used to, horses used to die from blood, blood worms and they, that with a good worm program, you don't hear of it anymore. Used to have a lot of colic in horses, we don't have the colic in the horses today that we had before; occasionally you'll, you'll have it, but not like they, they did, not like we did.

SMITH: Is that where you see some um, of the biggest changes in the 01:27:00industry has come through the medical?

SCOTT: Oh, I think part of it is yes. That and, and women veterinarians really I, I told all three of these young ladies. I says, "When I think about you coming out here and working on these horses and uh, talking about breeding and all of this and palpating the mares and ovaries and this, that and the other and all the aspects, " I said, " it really shocks me that we can talk about it." When I think about it what it used to be, wouldn't have been done, heaven sakes. These young ladies are smart and I think in all honesty I, I can't say this is one hundred percent true, but I think the majority of the women getting to veterinary medicine is because they want to. They're interested in it. 01:28:00I think a great many of the men getting into it, particularly coming into the horse end of it, are into it for money. They figure with these horses, expensive horses, people will pay for them; pay for good care, which they will. But I think the women are more dedicated to it. And, and uh--

SMITH: --I've heard some people say that they think that women have sort of a special connection with horses; nurturing.

SCOTT: Yeah. And, I've seen it, one of the tragedies, first woman veterinarian around here I can't think of the name. She was an attractive, lady and good veterinarian and she was out on a farm 01:29:00worming horses outdoors and this mare came by and shoved her into a gate post, crushed one lung and she lost a lung and she punctured, she broke ribs and punctured the lung and she lost the lung and she had to quit veterinary medicine and she was, I think was from New York State. And one fall she said, "I've got to go back to Kentucky and be down there for that horse sale, I want to see it." And with bad weather the doctor told her says, "You aught to stay home and stay out of bad weather." She says, "I gotta go." She came down here and got pneumonia and she died.

SMITH: Oh no.

SCOTT: Uh, but they said that actually she was happy doing what she did knowing she was putting her life on the line. I can't think of the name, she was with Hagyard's and for a long time afterwards, they wouldn't hire a, a female veterinarian. But uh, it was a freak thing.

SMITH: Yeah sounds like it, but still. I know I inter-, when I interviewed Ed Fallon and Bill McGee, I mean, you get a lot of injuries when you're a vet working with these horses.

SCOTT: Well they can. They, Rhonda got hurt; horse kicked her. [phone rings]

[Pause in recording.]

SMITH: Okay I'm back on but we've covered a lot today and I've got a lot to digest here. Would it be okay if I came back?

SCOTT: If you'd like to.

SMITH: You sure?

SCOTT: Be glad to talk to you.

SMITH: Okay cause I want to look up a few things and I've still got a whole page of questions here to go and I don't want to keep you two to three hours, so we'll go ahead and stop this for now.

[End of interview.]