Interview with Harry B. Scott, Jr., April 1, 2008

SMITH: Okay. This is Kim Lady Smith, and today is April 1st 2008. I'm conducting a second interview with Harry White, Harry White, Harry Scott, excuse me (laughs) thinking of Henry White there; at his home in Lexington, Kentucky for the Horse Industry in Kentucky Oral History Project. So Mr. Scott, I've got um, I went back and listened to our, the interview we did a couple of weeks ago and I had few questions and in our conversation just now there's all kinds of stories that, that we'll get to. But I'm going to take you back to your uh, childhood you were talking a little bit about, you grandfathers and you had mentioned John Yarrington, Yarrington?

SCOTT: Yarrington.

SMITH: Okay. He was your mother's father?

SCOTT: Father, yes.

SMITH: You said he raised trotters?

SCOTT: Trotters.

SMITH: Do you remember him, did you?

SCOTT: No, my, he died before I was born, he died in I think in 1921, I 00:01:00wasn't born until 26.

SMITH: What happened to his farm and his horses?

SCOTT: It's just down the road where my brother lives uh, and actually dad owned, ended up owning all of it except a 35 acre track that Bill DuPont now owns right in the middle of it with the house on it and where the track was uh, it was destroyed and there was no use for it, dad had no use for a, a track but there was a track over there that had stayed there--

SMITH: --okay--

SCOTT: --and he, apparently the bottom dropped out of the market, the Standardbred market at one, way back as it has in, in recent years and grandfather sold his horses.

SMITH: Oh okay, now what about your other grandfather, he died the year?

SCOTT: The year I was born.

SMITH: So--

SCOTT: --uh, he was born, actually born across the river from Maysville, Ohio and then moved, his mother died and he didn't like his stepmother and so he moved in with an uncle on the Kentucky side and was raised there and then eventually moved down here to Lexington. Uh, when he moved to this area at first he was general farming, cattle, tobacco and all and he ended up out at Pine Grove, Kentucky settlement halfway between here and Winchester and he had several farms there when he died.

SMITH: Now when did he start raising Thoroughbreds?

SCOTT: I'm not sure, he had a horse in the 19 I think 25 Derby, Son of 00:03:00John that was, ran third in it.

SMITH: Do you know what ever happened to the horse?

SCOTT: No I don't, I, -----------(??) I really don't know. Uh, Admiral Cary T. Grayson who they became great friends with was a friend and client of Colonel Chinn's he told my father, he said had my grandfather had anybody on the horse but the jockey he had he would have won it. The jockey had been sit down and there had been some dirty riding in the Kentucky Derby and the jockey on Son of John didn't want to get sit down again and he didn't want to get mixed up in it. So he rode very carefully but Admiral Grayson always felt that had he had another jockey that wouldn't have been afraid he could have won it, it's one 00:04:00of those stories that "if" this had happened it would have been a different outcome.

SMITH: Lots of stories like that in the industry.

SCOTT: Oh, yes, yes, the--

SMITH: --what do you mean by he had been sit, sat down?

SCOTT: He had been suspended for, for riding rough riding.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: And of course in those days, they, they allowed a lot more, you know jockeys in one of the Derby's and I think in the 30's fought, coming down the track, everybody saw it.

SMITH: Yeah I think I read about that in, in one of the books and you can see the picture of their--

SCOTT: --yes--

SMITH: --slapping at each other.

SCOTT: Yes, yes. I, it was for years, I can remember there would be rough riding and nothing would be done in a major stake race. They more or less let that go as uh, whatever happened I think and they finally decided that wasn't fair to the public and let's try to have 00:05:00more honest racing.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: You had jockey's such as uh, George Wolfe, the Ice Man and the story I've heard all my life that Wolfe was in a race with a young jockey, he'd go up to him before the race, now he says, "Boy if you see me coming through in the inside you pull your horse over and let me by", he said, "If you don't," he says, "I'll see you after the race and you'll remember me from now on."

SMITH: Oh.

SCOTT: They said he had done it too. So but you don't have that anymore.

SMITH: Now are there um, did these things just result in more rules and regulations to try to prevent that?

SCOTT: I think so. I think so. And we, we, I think we got more, some 00:06:00more gentlemen riders at least for a while we had and, and good, good riders that could use their heads and. I remember Oscar White who trained for the Jeffords trained a horse Pavot, he was champion two year old and came back as a better older horse and they were, after one race and Oscar told him to, to hold the horse and rate him, "Oh," he said, "Oscar you can't rate Pavot." "Well," he says "we'll try." When he came back after the race they came in second. He says "We will win the big one," he says, "You were right. Pavot can be rated." He says. "I lost it because I didn't start early enough holding him back and, and make him save, save himself." That took a big man to admit that he 00:07:00had lost the race, it was a minor race, it wasn't a major stake. They did win the major stake.

SMITH: Yeah. Huh. So I'm sure you've seen a lot of jockeys over the years, do you have any favorites?

SCOTT: Oh, Arcaro, Arcaro. A local, local jockey, Pat Day. Pat Day, uh and one reason I always think of Pat Day, I wasn't out at the paddock but my son- in- law had taken, one of our grandson's, oh one of our great-grandsons down to look at the horses, he was about 4 years old and Pat was, was squatted down over by the uh, where the jockeys come out and he saw this boy and he motioned him over and he had a quite 00:08:00chat with the little fellow and the fellow was thrilled to death to met a jockey and, and things like that and I had heard stories about Pat how nice he was, and, and all and I think that's nice, that's just great for racing.

SMITH: Absolutely, absolutely, I've heard good things about him uh, for many, many years. What about back when um, your dad was managing Faraway for the Jeffords, where there any particular jockeys that they were associated with?

SCOTT: They used Arcaro a lot and before that I couldn't, I, I, I names slip me, by me.

SMITH: That's okay. That's okay. There were a couple of stories that on the last tape and let's hope I'm doing a better job with this one that I had a little sound difficulty with so I'm going to ask you to tell me the stories again if that's okay?

SCOTT: All right.

SMITH: Then we'll get to the things we hadn't talked about. One of it was Man o' War's birthday party; could you describe that for me? What that was like.

SCOTT: Oh it was maddening, people from, important people came and local people padded the, was thrilled of course Clem McCarthy was here and he was the leading sports announcer at the time. He came down, uh, Happy Chandler was Governor and he was here and they had a birthday cake for Man o' War, they had made and put carrots around the outside of course Man o' War never got even the carrots but it was an interesting thing the stud, stallion barn at Faraway was packed with people. Fortunately we got there early and were very close to the stall door, and uh. This 00:10:00was the year that Man O', War Admiral won the Derby and Clem McCarthy asked, said to Man o' War, said ,"Man o' War you've got a son in the Derby is he going to win it?" And at that moment Man o' War raised his head up and down as answering yes and--

SMITH: --I bet the crowd loved that--

SCOTT: --oh yes, yes they did. And uh, Happy Chandler was running for Senator, going to run that year, it had been announced and he said "Man o' War, if, if you were registered would you vote for me" and the horse didn't say anything, he stayed (laughs) zero politics, politics on that one, he didn't move his head, yah or nah, so we don't know how Man o' War felt about that election.

SMITH: That's all right, well that's pretty good. Now you were about 12 00:11:00years old then?

SCOTT: Yes and then some of the pictures taken was taken from the front, I can see myself in, in it, I mean, I don't think anybody would recognize it, see myself and my mother, mother was right behind it and right behind us I have a little more of the story I want to tell but I don't want it recorded.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: When Happy asked that.

SMITH: Do you want me to pause it now?

SCOTT: Yeah.

SMITH: this recorder and me. Okay, I think we are recording.

SCOTT: Recording?

SMITH: Yeah. Okay (laughs) worse case scenario this doesn't come out and I have to come back and spend the afternoon with you again--

SCOTT: --(laughs) it would be a pleasure to, enjoy talking to you.

SMITH: Thank you, thank you. Okay. The other story that had some 00:12:00interference on was the race between War Admiral and Sea Biscuit. Now.

SCOTT: I didn't go see it, my mother and father and some friends went up for it. Uh, when it was announced it was going to be at Pimlico, my father said, felt it was not the best track in the world for War Admiral. He didn't like Pimlico, it was a deep track and he didn't like deep tracks. Mr. Riddle was talked into it. Uh, they thought there would be a, you know, boost for Pimlico to have it there and so when dad got there uh, he saw War Admiral and he said I don't think he can win the race and he didn't of course.

SMITH: Because of the track?

SCOTT: Yeah. And, and there was stories told about uh, training habits with Tom Smith with Sea Biscuit, to be sure he understood when a bell rang that horse took off running. Yeah he didn't hurt the horse, cause I, the stories I have been told, but he schooled him which is all right, nobody would have thought of things like that except an outstanding trainer and, and Smith was, Mr. Conway wasn't in the same class as Tom Smith.

SMITH: But War Admiral was a special horse.

SCOTT: War Admiral was a special horse.

SMITH: Did your dad think so? Did he think that--

SCOTT: --no, not, dad got Mr. Riddle to breed Brushup to Man o' War, he said I think it would be a, a, produce you a good horse. As a yearling 00:14:00dad thought he was just another yearling, I asked my father once and he said he was just a nice brown yearling, a small yearling, and nothing you would pick out as outstanding. The only person that did was Walter Jeffords Sr. and he picked him out and Mr. Riddle offered to trade him and he said you've got a Man o' War colt; I'll trade you for that colt. Mr. Riddle, Mr. Jeffords colt was a beautiful chestnut had some white on him an outstanding looking colt. He never was a race horse, but Mr. Jeffords says oh said this is family and he says uh, if I trade with Mr. Riddle and he says Sam might not like it if he turns out to be a great race horse and he says it may break up part of the 00:15:00family and he says I don't want to do that, said let him have some fun, he says I think if the horse is handled right he'll show himself, and he did.

SMITH: And his trainer was uh, Conway?

SCOTT: Yes, George Conway.

SMITH: Did he train most of Mr. Riddle's horses?

SCOTT: Riddle, he trained for Mr. Riddle for many, many years, I don't know how long he trained for him of course he didn't train Man o' War, Louis Feustel trained Man o' War and I don't know when Conway took over. He was there as trainer as long as my father was.

SMITH: Okay. Now um, when I came in before we got set up here we were talking about um, um, Mr. Gray who had introduced your dad to Mr. Riddle.

SCOTT: Yes.

SMITH: Tell me about that friendship?

SCOTT: Dad met uh, Admiral Grayson when he was managing for Colonel 00:16:00Chinn. Uh, Colonel Chinn always knew the right people and it was a good experience and dad got a telephone call from Admiral Grayson once and he says, "The Riddles are considering getting a new manager," he said, "I suggested you and they're interested in talking to you and would you come up but don't say anything about it." And it was quite a secret for a while and then until they interviewed dad and decided yes they were going to make a change. And uh, but Admiral Grayson had a few horses that, and had a farm, a lovely farm up at Upperville, Virginia.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: And he was the, and he had been personal physician for the President to others before Roosevelt. And I'm sure of that. I don't know how many Presidents he had been.

SMITH: But he was an Admiral?

SCOTT: Admiral but he was a, a doctor. And I think he was interested in, in, in learning more about, in the profession, veterinary profession, learning more about the horses, knowing more, that's why when they formed Grayson they named it in his honor I think because of his past interest in it.

SMITH: In the health of the horse?

SCOTT: Yeah, the health of the horse and they've done great things.

SMITH: Now he was in, in the horse business himself?

SCOTT: Yes. And when he died his, he had two sons, uh, one was named Cary and I've forgotten the other, other son. But they carried it on for awhile.

SMITH: Okay, now did you say that your dad boarded some of his horses?

SCOTT: Yes, boarded horses. (coughs) We sent mares down every spring uh, to be bred in Kentucky and then after the breeding season's over then he shipped them back. All of this was done by rail. There was very little, oh I don't think there was any long distance vanning, very little, there was some but uh, it was mostly done by rail.

SMITH: Okay, so he would breed them here but send them back to Virginia to?

SCOTT: Yes.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: He wanted his horses where he could go out and see them. Isabel Dodge Sloane, we, dad boarded for her uh, she would leave mares down here and I come, after they were weaned they'd take the weanlings back 00:19:00and sometimes they would take some of the mares back and send in other mares to be bred, mares that, some mares she wanted to breed in Virginia and take them back and then send mares down to Kentucky, she'd have, oh I don't know but quite a few mares to stand, to stand down here.

SMITH: Did she work exclusively with your dad or did she have other--

SCOTT: --she worked exclusively, boarded here--

SMITH: --okay--

SCOTT: --she was quite a lady.

SMITH: Yeah, I've read a little bit about her, can tell me about her.

SCOTT: Oh she was quite outspoken to say the least. I think uh, stories I've heard about her, here again would be stories that some people might take offense but they were, one of them I know has to be true because too many people heard it. It was a comment she made about someone at uh, involved in racing at Saratoga and it was to wide spread 00:20:00not to have been a true story. And she'd say what she thought about her own horses and she was a good judge of a horse. And uh, she liked things done her way, and, and she was paying for the bills and they should be the way she wanted them done but she'd listen to people, she would take advice when she thought it was good advice.

SMITH: How did she get hooked up with your father? How did he get her as a client?

SCOTT: It was when dad bought the farm, dad bought it in the fall of 39, 1939, and later in the fall or that spring, Hugh Fontaine was training for her and dad knew Hugh and known him for a number of years, he called him up and said, "I've seen, seen where you've bought a farm, you got any empty stalls over there?" Dad said, Yes." He said, "Would 00:21:00you like some horses for them?" Said, "Yes." Says, "Mrs. Sloane is unhappy where she is boarding now and wants to move the horses, can you take them?" And dad said, "Yes, I'd be very glad to." And so she moved them. The story was she had been down there where she was boarding and there was a stump out in the field and she told the owner of the farm, said you ought to move that stump, horse is going to run over it and may break a leg and it did happen and--

SMITH: --you don't want to tell me the name of that farm?

SCOTT: No.

SMITH: Okay. Okay. I understand.

SCOTT: The farm is long gone.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: Farm is long gone and out of business.

SMITH: Well who was some of the other clients you dad had?

SCOTT: Um, Mr. George Humphrey who was Secretary of the Treasury under 00:22:00Eisenhower. He had Mr. Chrisman Oglebay from Cleveland that's how he met Mr. Humphrey. Mr. Oglebay had uh, I've forgotten the name of his company but it was a business management for a certain percent of the business uh, they would come in and set up management for it and Mr. Oglebay would, and Mr. Oglebay had, had show horses.

SMITH: Oh the Saddlebred?

SCOTT: Yes--

SMITH: --okay--

SCOTT: --and he had a, a Man o' War colt uh, that had been turned into a steeplechase horse but he, he couldn't run fast enough in between the jumps, they said he could jump beautifully but he just was slow in between, he'd get beat all the time--

SMITH: --that's right--

SCOTT: --and so they tried to make a show jumper out of him and ----- 00:23:00------(??) Holystone had a mind of his own and they said the lady that owned him was riding him in a big show in Madison Square Garden and she did something that Holystone didn't like and he laid downed right in the middle of the show and they said the lady said she wanted to get rid of that horse (laughs).

SMITH: I can imagine.

SCOTT: And uh, Mr. Oglebay bought him and turned him into a champion, I don't know enough of the terms of that, in the, of the business, it, turned him into a champion show horse.

SMITH: Okay, okay.

SCOTT: And he's a magnificent horse. Dad talked to the Mr. Oglebay's trainer once, he said you had to ride him with kid gloves, and he says, "Yes you did. He says, "You rode him very lightly, the horse would do anything you wanted but you didn't jerk him, if you jerked him and hurt 00:24:00his mouth that's when he would do a trick like laying down." He was willing to do what you wanted but to ask, don't tell.

SMITH: Smart horse.

SCOTT: Man o' War was the same way. I ask and I'll do it, don't tell me I have to do it.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: I think in talking to people like Penny Chenery and others, most of the good horses are that way. They do anything you want when you ask but don't tell and--

SMITH: --interesting. They know how good they are huh?--

SCOTT: --I think so, I don't think there's doubt in my mind that the great horses, and uh, do know and the great horses try to take care of themselves. I think they, they watch, uh, well though the good horse 00:25:00that broke his leg in the Preakness last year, Barbaro. He pulled up quick, he knew he'd injured that leg and he pulled up and the jockey, the jockey realized it and pulled him up and the horse stopped quickly. Uh, they had a well bred colt he didn't, he won but the owner, I sold him at Saratoga, at uh Keeneland, the man that bought him says I was the one that, that he was the one that made the mistake with the horse, he didn't give him to the right trainer. But he laid down in the paddock out here one day and rolled over, it was a four plank fence and his foot went under the bottom plank and the men saw him laying there 00:26:00not moving and they went out to see what was wrong and saw it and they talked to the horse and, and all and took the board loose and then he moved his leg.

SMITH: So he would have broken it if he had--

SCOTT: --he would have broken it.

SMITH: Tried to get free.

SCOTT: Try to get up on how own. Had he pulled out just the way he got it in but you know horse felt it lock and no telling how it would have gone. But, but he knew it.

SMITH: That's interesting.

SCOTT: He was the first foal by Citation.

SMITH: Oh okay.

SCOTT: Now there's an interesting thing if you think about the stud fee they had Citation at.

SMITH: What was that?

SCOTT: Five thousand dollars no guarantee. But five thousand dollars, 00:27:00but here's a, a first horse that had ever won a million dollars in the world. I mean today these horses, and, and I think it would be interesting if, if you compare that million dollars that he won, the purses, up them to what they are today, how much that would be.

SMITH: It would be huge.

SCOTT: At the time of, of the Man o' War birthday party, mother and dad entertained the uh, uh, Clem, Clem McCarthy and his wife and some of the other people that were here for dinner one night and Clem McCarthy made the statement he says," If you take the earnings that Man o' War won when he won them and take those purses and see what they are today", or what they were at the height of 39 because, I mean of 29, 00:28:00he said, "He would have set a record that would be hard to break." And I think that you know, you, you going this money, money, people are talking billions today, the government is when they used to talk millions now it's billions of dollars a day--

SMITH: --oh, I know--

SCOTT: --and it, it, it just shocks me, and, and--

SMITH: --yeah--

SCOTT: --the, the cost of, of boarding horses, of raising horses in, in the 40's my father was charging $35.00 a day to board a mare and that was, that was top dollar, -----------(??) top dollar what any good, good place, $35.00?

SMITH: It's amazing.

SCOTT: I mean 35.00 not a day, a month--

SMITH: --a month?

SCOTT: 35.00 dollars a month, I said day, 35.00 a month.

SMITH: Oh gee, so all right so what would it be today?

SCOTT: Oh my Lord, I don't know.

SMITH: Okay, I, I know it would be extreme comparison.

SCOTT: I sold a filly in 1950, '52, for 50 thous-, 59 thousand, the second highest filly that had ever been sold up to that point. Here about '83 when the market was so high, I used to comparison to see and she would have brought in the millions.

SMITH: Yeah. Big changes.

SCOTT: Big changes and uh, the, the prices these horses are bringing today I just sit and shake my head.

SMITH: It is amazing.

SCOTT: And the stud fees today. But the, I, I go back to what I was talking about, to, to think, actually Citation was cheap. A lot of people thought when I bred a mare to Citation was a foolish thing. This was when they brought 59 thousand, so it wasn't a bad investment.

SMITH: No, no.

SCOTT: I mean, I, I got almost 6, 12 times what I put into the stud fee.

SMITH: Um, hum. Well let's uh, couple of things, let's go back to 00:31:00Admiral Grayson and let you tell me about the tour that he took you and your dad on to Upperville and then I want to get back more specifically to your career with horses, we've talked a lot about your dad and a lot of people you know. So tell me about this, this tour that he took you all on and, and to--

SCOTT: --Joe Estes planed the tour; he was editor of the Blood-Horse at the time. Of the farms and so we drove up there and went to the farms, dad knew uh, most of the people and Joe knew the commanding officer of the Fort Royal--

SMITH: --okay--

SCOTT: --Remount Station that was interesting to go to. To see it, it was interesting to see the Virginia farms because they weren't, they weren't connected, I mean, collected close together so much as they are, down, down, were down here even then, because we we're centrally 00:32:00located here and then with Claiborne over at Paris, that was not far away but that was uh, was interesting to, to see the difference in the farms.

SMITH: Now why did you, why was the tour developed? Just, just to see other farms?

SCOTT: Dad, dad wanted, wanted to take a vacation and, and he got a driver because he didn't like to drive that much, he didn't mind driving around here but on a trip he didn't want to drive. So the, the driver and I sat up front and mother and dad sat in the back seat.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: And I was the map man, fortunately I didn't get everybody lost once. I, I never did get lost; I kept up with the map.

SMITH: How old where you then?

SCOTT: '39 I was 13.

SMITH: Oh, okay, okay. So tell me about the um, Remount Station, how did that work?

SCOTT: It was unbelievable the amount of horses they had. I've 00:33:00forgotten how, how many horses they had up there and they way they handled them. They handled them, they were treated well, but they were handled basically a rough way, I mean, you know not, not a lot of attention except for the ones that they were using daily but they had the, the broodmares there and the foals and all, they, they were rough but it was an interesting set up.

SMITH: What were they using the horses for at that point?

SCOTT: You see still, and, and in '39 or '40 whenever it was, there was, a, a cavalry. See the Remount Station was, was furnishing horses to the cavalry, the horse cavalry. And then of course World War II, 00:34:00when we got into it of course we were fighting in Europe then, but when we got into it they discovered that there wasn't much use in cavalry, cavalry charges weren't doing what, but the, the one thing that they did produce were, were the pack animals, mules for Indochina and Burma. Proctor was in the China, Doctor Proctor was over in the Burma theater and he said they had these mules and they'd be going up a mountain trail with supplies, or guns or whatever on their backs and occasionally one would slip and roll down the hill and be laying there feet straight up, they said well that's mules dead. Well we better go down and get that harness, the harness, we may lose the supplies but we want that harness 00:35:00and they'd go down and loosen the harness and the old mule would roll over take, and go right back up the trail where she fell, fell down.

SMITH: Gee.

SMITH: They, they were smart uh, so they would get hurt and some of them broken legs and all but so the great majority of them could roll down mountainside and still ready to go again.

SMITH: Oh my. Um, you were telling me a story about uh, Patton's horse. Want to tell me that one again?

SCOTT: Doctor Dale Proctor told me that when he went into the Remount Service and was out at the big Remount Station in Oklahoma and tank station. His commanding officer says you know he says a General can have a horse if he wants it and the Army will furnish it otherwise the General, Admiral, I mean the General can buy the horse and the Army will 00:36:00keep the horse but he has to have him inspected once or twice a year. He said, "Here are the papers; go inspect General Patton's horse." Dr. Proctor says, "Give me, may I borrow your pen sir, I'll sign the papers right now." The command-, his officer, commanding officer said, "No you have to go inspect the horse. He said, "Sir don't you know I love that horse, I've never seen him but I still love that horse if that's what General Patton wants, that's what I want." And he says, "I would never turn him down." He said the CO laughed and said, "Yes I know what you're talking about but, " he says, "you really do have to go look at him and says then sign the papers." "Okay." (laughs).

SMITH: What else do you remember from that trip?

SCOTT: Oh on the trip we went over to Williamsburg and see they had 00:37:00started building Williamsburg but there was still a lot of work going on--

SMITH: --yeah--

SCOTT: --and they didn't own as much as they do now and it was interesting to see what colonial life had been.

SMITH: Yeah.

SCOTT: And then, of course, the horses were important to those people back in the colonial days, they, they were transportation.

SMITH: Absolutely.

SCOTT: That's why, I think I've said before, I felt that my father and people in his generation had more of a feel for the animals than the younger generation because they were, how they got around. They were working with horses and mules on the farm, they had no tractors, nobody knew anything about a tractor and so they, they learned quickly to be a good judge of a horse and they loved their, their horses and I think.

SMITH: It made a difference.

SCOTT: Big difference.

SMITH: Yeah. Okay let's bring you back to Kentucky and in your childhood, now where did you go to school?

SCOTT: I first started out in a public school and then I went to a private school, Hamilton Grammar School from the 5th through the 8th grade and then I went to the University High School at the University of Kentucky which has since been closed through terrible error. At that time it was closed I was on the committee, I had children in the school, I was on the committee. Dr. Oswald was President of the University. For some reason he was determined to close it because 00:39:00we had made him proposals and he said it was costing him too much to operate the school. We said, I said raise the tuition. He said I'm not running a private school. Someone on the, on the uh, board from the University was there and he said you're charging too much against that school that should go to the College of Education where they're educating--[phone rings]--excuse me. Hello, she is not here can I take a message, yes, that's Wednesday at three o'clock, yes, yes the lady I talked to gave it to me and I have it down, thank you, bye-bye. [phone hangs up] Checking on an appointment my wife has tomorrow with 00:40:00her doctor.

SMITH: Okay. So.

SCOTT: So then, then when I graduated I had volunteered for uh, the Army Air Corp--

SMITH: --okay--

SCOTT: --with the Cadet Program but this was '44. The war was beginning to end down in Europe; they didn't need as many pilots, bombardiers, all of that so they'd only accept a few. Any slight feature or problem, uh, you were washed out of cadets and I, my eyes weren't perfect then and so, no, no, no, no. Then I was to go to Armored Gunnery School in Denver, Colorado and I got there, "Oh dear, we can't have you." I was 00:41:00six feet half inch tall, you, "We're only taking people six feet and under." And then I went to mechanic school in Amarillo, Texas.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: And it was a good experience. Being in the, the service and seeing how it operated. Uh, there was the right way, the wrong way and the Air Force way of doing things and uh, but no it was a good experience.

SMITH: How long were you in the service?

SCOTT: I got out in '46. See they, the war had ended in Europe and then ended uh--

SMITH: --in the Pacific--

SCOTT: --in Japan, that same summer. We were down in Gulfport, Mississippi and everybody went wild for a day or two. The war was 00:42:00over. Shrimp was 25 cents a pound.

SMITH: (laughs) I would have liked that.

SCOTT: Yes we liked it to we, ate, ate a lot of shrimp and Vella and I married January 1st, 1945.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: She and my mother came out to see me at Amarillo. We'd been engaged and she and I decided to get married.

SMITH: What's you're wife's name?

SCOTT: Vella, V-e-l-l-a.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: She's named for her mother and, and they never knew where the name came from. Mrs. Wise's, my mother-in-law, mother had read the name in a book someplace and thought it was a pretty name, something different and named her and we, then, they named their daughter 00:43:00Vella and we named our daughter Vella and, and it's, one of the granddaughter's is named Vella.

SMITH: That's a pretty name.

SCOTT: It's a, it's an Italian name, it's a last name.

SMITH: Really.

SCOTT: There is a trainer, I think in Canada, Vella and it's spelled the same way, V-e-l-l-a and we ran into a cheese company in uh, California, the Vella Cheese Company, we've gotten some cheese from it, it's good cheese (laughs).

SMITH: Now did you two know each other, when high school?

SCOTT: Yes, oh yes I fell in love with her in the 9th grade. She didn't know me. It was a small class and everybody knew everybody but she didn't know I was alive at that time but uh, we started dating in the beginning of our junior year.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: And then it became very serious.

SMITH: So you got married in 45, is that what you said?

SCOTT: January 1st.

SMITH: When you were in the service?

SCOTT: Yes.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: Mother was unhappy about the marriage, not because we were married, that was fine, she was crazy about Vella, but she was down there as chaperone and we had gone off and gotten married, she didn't know what her mother and father were going to say but they were happy about it too and because it looked like uh, the war was ending and I didn't know where I'd go, well the war was still going on and what would happen so we, we had fun down in Gulfport, Mississippi. It was a good time.

SMITH: Is that where you went to get married?

SCOTT: No we married in Amarillo, Texas.

SMITH: Oh okay, okay. And then you--

SCOTT: --then I was transferred down there. It was a training station 00:45:00for B, B29's and at that time that was the biggest plane the army had.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: I, I think the whole thing was 99 feet long.

SMITH: Okay. And you were a mechanic right?

SCOTT: Yes. I was a mechanic. I didn't blow up or cause any planes to blow up either.

SMITH: Oh I'd hope not, hope not. So when you got out of the service, what did you do?

SCOTT: Came back here, went to college.

SMITH: At U.K.?

SCOTT: At U.K. Uh, majored in uh, economics, I have a BS degree in commerce, that's the way it was stated at the time I graduated. Dad said, let me learn about the horse business, more, more about the horse business on the ground rather than book learning and learn something about the business in economics from them and it was a good experience.

SMITH: So did you work with your dad while you were going to school?

SCOTT: Yes.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: I, I had always, when I got old enough, I worked on the farm in the summers.

SMITH: This farm?

SCOTT: This farm. And, and you see at that time he still owned, he owned where my brother lives across, I say Swaggert but it's now Faulkner.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: I, I did a little bit of everything, I mean, mowing, driving the tractor, mowing fields, cleaning stalls, my father's theory was if you haven't, if you haven't done it how can you tell anybody to do it, how to do it.

SMITH: Was there any part of the horse industry that you wanted to work in more than another?

SCOTT: No, I loved; I actually loved the breeding season, fooling with 00:47:00the mares and foals. Of course when we started, when I started out getting out of college in '50, out here, veterinarian science was far different that it was today. There was no palpation, that came later. It was examining the mare the way she looked and all. I remember Bill McGee had two young veterinarians just out of college and examined this mare and he said now we'll give her so and so and you know in two days she'll be ready to be bred. They came back in two days and put spectrum in her and opened her up and looked and he said, "Now you look at the mare, do you remember what she was the other day?" And 00:48:00they looked and they were horrified says, "Why she hasn't changed a bit that's shot's supposed to change her within 18 hours." McGee looked at her and he said, he looked at them and said, You know not all of these horses have read the same book as you've read," and turned and walked away from them. He said that's the trouble, they believe everything that is written down that's going to happen that way. He said they've got to get out and learn that the, the medicine doesn't always work the way it's supposed to work. Bill was a very dry.

SMITH: Uh-huh, sounds like it.

SCOTT: And they had a veterinarian student once with him that my age, or just graduated rather and Bill said give the mare a shot, "do you want to give it IM or IV?" McGee looked and turned his head says, 00:49:00"Oh stick it in the muscle (laughs)." He hated smart alecks, he hated smart alecks, he really couldn't stand them and I asked him once what was wrong with a foal, foal just collapsed, it was in the spring of the year and mares and foals were turned out and put them up and they were leading this foal in and he just dropped and he laid there a few minutes and they could of shook him up and he got up and walked on a little further and dropped and McGee couldn't get, they couldn't find McGee and another veterinarian from Hagyard's came out and he said, "Well McGee is your veterinarian, " and says, "get him out here," he says this veterinarian says, "I think I know what's wrong with him but 00:50:00let McGee." I asked McGee I said, "What's wrong with him?" "I don't know". "Well what do I tell the owner?" "Tell him I don't know what's wrong with him but we'll watch him." And the first veterinarian had said he thought he had a heart problem a value wasn't working the way it should be. McGee never would tell me, I mean McGee finally said, he says you know he said, "I found out if I tell you what I think is wrong with him, the next day the horse will prove me a liar." So he says, "I honestly can't prove what I think is wrong with him, " but he said "I think I know what's wrong with him," and he says, "stall rest is going to do the thing that give the horse, if he is going to live, a chance." And we would not even take the mare and foal out of the stall to clean the stall. They'd go in, two men one holding the mare, keeping the foal as quiet as they could and the other man cleaning 00:51:00the stall, putting in fresh bedding and all and then one day McGee says, "Well we'd better find out what's going to happen with him, take him, lets take him to the paddock right by the barn and lead him out there and see what he does," and the foal just kind of walked around a little. Turned the mare loose and she didn't run and so he says, "Well we'll leave her out for awhile and see what happens." We did. He says, "Let's put her up and start turning her out an hour a day and he says then add, we'll add a time and he came by everyday, sometimes three times a day to look at the foal, just to look and watch it and the foal apparently grew out of it. The foal raced.

SMITH: Really?

SCOTT: Then because they told them what had happened and the way it had 00:52:00acted, it might be a heart problem but it never seemed to bother him. So McGee was, Doctor Charlie, I don't mean to take anything away from him but McGee was one of the finest veterinarians, a close second if not equal was the last veterinarian I had here, Rhonda Rathgeber. She was.

SMITH: We talked a little bit about her last time.

SCOTT: She was, she was sharp, the first time I saw her I thought they had sent a kid. She looked like a kid, she was older than she looked and I mean just as a cute a young lady as you want to see and, and just as friendly and nice and all. But oh she was sharp, she was sharp.

SMITH: What uh, what were some of the problems you had with horses when you were raising them?

SCOTT: Well the old problem was virus abortion. And at Faraway, this was back in the 30's--

SMITH: --um, hum--

SCOTT: --they, they had an outbreak, practically; they had it on every farm around here. And I think dad said they lost 7 foals in one night, they didn't know what it was, they had no idea. Dad said what happens if we put, put one of these dead foals in a stall with a mare that's going to foal, I think they had a test mare or something down there that was in foal. They put it in there and she lost her foal and 00:54:00so they, they had done this other places and they decided, obviously passed from horse to horse, someway and they worked and worked and worked on, on various vaccines. What to do, of course they came up with uh, I guess Jack Bryans the one that came up with it and the vaccine that really did it. Some of the vaccines well, we poured it on the ground, it had no, no affect. They, not Jack's but some of the early vaccines but working with him.

SMITH: How hard was that particular instance on the farms around here, I mean how hard was that on your father from an economic stand point?

SCOTT: Oh it was very, very hard economically. Uh, losing foals, losing there at Faraway, uh, we lost, dad lost foals. There's, would lose 00:55:00them and then of course later on came the CEM, Contagious, Contritus Equine, I mean Contagious Equine Metritis and uh, that was the, there's where the press, they ought to have people writing on technical things that know what they're writing about cause they had a big meeting out at Keeneland. State veterinarians, Federal veterinarians, McGee and I don't know, Proctor and some of the other leading veterinarians around here, the, whoever was at, at the Claiborne at the time, trying to talk about it and what should we do. The next day the article's in the 00:56:00paper, I said we weren't at the same meeting.

SMITH: They just didn't understand?

SCOTT: They didn't understand and didn't get it down and it was, papers should, all I think, all publications, on something like that should have somebody there that has some knowledge, not just a young reporter that's writing a story. I read one in the paper the other day about medicine they are experimenting on the eyes, but they, the paper didn't make it clear and I saw my eye specialist the other day and I said what about that article, oh he says that is something their working with for in the future. Says there's been no human trials on it, says they are working with mice and he says it's no good now, cause see I get these 00:57:00shots in my eyes. He said the shot we use does not get outside the eye it draws up the blood vessels in the eye. This other can do the same thing except it can leak out of the eyes that go to all over your body and cut off blood vessels and says that's no good.

SMITH: And so that article was very misleading?

SCOTT: Yeah.

SMITH: Well when you have coverage of something that could be of real serious problem in the industry and it's not correct that can make the problem worse I guess.

SCOTT: Oh I think it can but fortunately uh, the, the Keeneland and the, the people there they put out good reports. They got it out to the veterinarians all over the country.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: And that was one problem way back uh, so something simple in 00:58:00culturing mares to see if there is any uh, infection. "Oh why I don't have any dirty mares on my farm!" Because this was something new and it's the same, it has gone on, people denied and they would, at first some of the people denied that they had CEM on the farm.

SMITH: Um, hum.

SCOTT: They said John Gaines they were having a meeting with his veterinarian and he had a good veterinarian on staff over there and they were talking about how it got started and John pounded on the desk and he says "I don't give a damn how it got started, what are you going to do to stop it?" (laughs) He said that's all I want to know.

SMITH: Absolutely. I can understand that.

SCOTT: And uh, but we have, we have come along way, where, where veterinarian medicine, the research is being put out. In, in terms that you can understand it and good information.

SMITH: Now how much of an impact have the advances in veterinarian care helped the industry?

SCOTT: The, the, the idea of the palpation of the mares uh, I'm, I'm trying to remember, but I think it used to take, this was on an average of mares and I, I'd have anywhere from 30 to 40 mares on the farm going to the breeding shed when you're, had a few more than that even. The 01:00:00average then at first would be about 2 and half covers per, per mare per year. Uh, it's down now, the last time I kept record it was down to maybe 1 and quarter mares, covers per mare.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: Because the palpation, they can palpate and then another thing that helps is with the ultra sound where they can examine, you see it used to be, it'd go 45 days before they'd do a, a rectal examination of a mare to see if she was in foal or not. Now we can tell most of the time in 15 days.

SMITH: That's quite a difference.

SCOTT: Yes and things like that. The, the new medicines they have come 01:01:00along with, strangles used to be prevalent. They've got medicine now, shots they give--

SMITH: --yeah--

SMITH: --and can stop it and all of this. I think the whole industry owes a great deal to the University of Kentucky with their veterinarary section, that they've had some of the greatest minds working there and working with them.

SMITH: I've heard a lot about Jack Bryans.

SCOTT: Oh Jack was great. They, they before Jack's time they had some great men but at that time, no state agency could pay anyone more than 5,000 dollars a year and that cost them some people because you, you 01:02:00take a married man and I say man because there weren't many women in the business at that time, uh, with a family uh, he wants to do well for his family and you know, get 7,500 dollars a year, 2,500 dollars in, in those days was a lot of money.

SMITH: Absolutely, absolutely.

SCOTT: And, and they, some, there were some, one or two that stuck it out here and then the Grayson came along and could give them grants.

SMITH: Right.

SCOTT: That was okay, they weren't being paid--

SMITH: --um, hum--

SCOTT: --they were getting grants to do, do work and so they, they worked it out.

SMITH: Well I'm going to take you away from medical things, let's go back to when you first started on your own career. So you came back from the service and you went U.K. you were working with your dad on 01:03:00this farm at the time and when you graduated what did you do? Where did you go to work full time?

SCOTT: Here on this farm. Dad turned the entire operation over to me.

SMITH: Okay. And that would have been early 50's?

SCOTT: Yes, yes.

SMITH: Did he retire?

SCOTT: No. Well he was managing Faraway Farm--

SMITH: --okay. For the Jeffords--

SCOTT: --the Jeffords farm, for the Jeffords. He was managing that and then he was still very active in, in this, he could see things quicker than I could and he had one man here. Man was a good worker, a good horseman and, and I, one of the other men told me, he says, "You don't know but he's feeding that colt too much," and I said, well 01:04:00I, I told him cut back on your feed on that. "Yes sir," and the man came back and says, "He's not doing it, he is still feeding him the same amount." I said well I just got through telling him, he says, "He's not going to do it because you told him." He says, "You're daddy told him to feed that horse that much." And so I told dad, explained the situation, oh he says, "I'll talk to him." And he talked to him and told him. No sir. See I was a little boy, I had the same thing happen down at Faraway when my father died and I took over as manager down there. Went down there one afternoon, this was in the summer, we were leaving, turning the mare and foals out at night, putting them up in the day and feeding them, then turning them out at night, in the 01:05:00afternoon to give them enough time to clean the stalls, so they were, I went down broodmare barn and they weren't through cleaning and I said fellows why, "Oh we had these stalls to clean". I said, "Well just because you see me riding around in a car and most of the time and in and out, don't think I haven't done, I know how long it would take to clean these stalls with the number of men doing it and I want it done, cleaned up before you leave." "Well I don't know if we can do it." "Well," I said "Try tomorrow and if you can't do it, I'm going to have to give you a check and then get somebody that can because I sure know 01:06:00I can find somebody that can do it". "Oh we don't know". They were through quicker than I even thought they could be (laughs).

SMITH: Oh my.

SCOTT: See they were pulling my leg.

SMITH: That's right. Now had they worked for your father?

SCOTT: They had worked for dad.

SMITH: Oh okay.

SCOTT: Oh he, he didn't put up, when he was with Colonel Chinn, they had what is now Plum Lane leased and dad went down there, Melvin Cinnamon managed Calumet at one time, until he was sick. Melvin was working down there as a young boy. Dad had known the family and gave him a job. Went down there and dad looked around and he says where's so and so, he hadn't finished cleaning these stalls. "Well he's up in the loft sleeping." Dad said, "Well go get him," and he called him 01:07:00and he said, "I don't mind you taking a nap when your work is finished but don't sleep until you get all your work done and then if you have nothing else to do go take a nap if you want to." So a few days later dad came back and the same situation and they said we'll go get him and dad said, "Oh no, no, no, leave him alone. As long as he's asleep he's got a job, says when he wakes up tell him to go to the office and get his check."

SMITH: Oh (laughs).

SCOTT: Melvin said he never forgot that.

SMITH: Learned a lesson.

SCOTT: Yes. And so I, I grew up that you, you had to do it.

SMITH: But was it hard kind of stepping in to take over for your dad with people that?

SCOTT: Oh yes it was because uh, I had changed things up here on my 01:08:00father believed when you weaned you put the mares up and milked them three times a day and then turn them back out and feed them of course we were producing milk all the time. But dad was a, best horseman I'd ever seen and he'd keep the weanlings up oh five days and then turn them out and of course they'd run wild but, and I heard Colonel Sager who was veterinarian at Claiborne speak on how he did it and he said Mr. Hancock thought I was, that he was crazy when he did it, suggested it, he says turn the foals out the first day you wean him. He says their going to run but he says if you keep them up they are going to run more and he said turn them out and see. So the first year after 01:09:00dad died we weaned, I said, "As soon as you get through weaning, turn them out." "Turn them out?" I said, "Yeah." "Well they will run through the fence, won't it?" I said, "They may run through a fence when you turn them out anytime as far as that goes." "Well how long leave them out about an hour?" I said, "No leave them out until, just long enough to get them up before you have to go home." "Well never catch them". I said, "Oh yes you will because they are going to be so tired they will be glad to get in." "Oh I don't think so". Well I said, "This is the way I want it." "Well your daddy never did it this way." I said, "That's right," and I said, "I'll tell you right say now, my daddy was a damn sight better horseman than I am or ever will be but," I said, "this is the way I have done it at home and it's worked and I'm not 01:10:00criticizing my father for not doing it this way, he had a way and he's raised a lot of better horses than I ever have, and I said "but this is what I want done." So I went down back to the farm that afternoon time to see them put up. I said, "How did they catch?" They had them all up. "Gosh they were so easy, we called for them and somebody whistled for them and they came running and stood there at the gate for us to put them up." I said they were glad to get to that stall and that's what, what, problem I had. As soon as they saw that I knew a little something about the game everything was all right.

SMITH: Yeah.

SCOTT: But they tried me and, and.

SMITH: You can kind of expect that I guess.

SCOTT: Yeah, I think so.

SMITH: But did you have a particular philosophy about taking care of horses or is it just?

SCOTT: I guess I have the same philosophy my father had. When the good Lord created the horses, they stayed outdoors. Man is the one that put them in a barn. Keep them out as much as you can.

SMITH: Um, hum.

SCOTT: On the farm over there he had a shed barn where they could run in and had a trough full of hay. He would keep barren mares back there until, and the only time you'd see them in the barn was in a freezing rain or a heavy snow. They'd stay out, warm rain, that didn't bother them; they would be out grazing in the field. But in a freezing, when they, they were getting cold they'd come in the barn and so it did, it 01:12:00did show that the horses liked the outdoors.

SMITH: Yeah I think uh, Alice Chandler; I think has the same kind of philosophy, keep them close to nature.

SCOTT: Yeah. And then, and turn the, the yearlings together. Uh, this goes back to my father but he was right, I mean the thinking was right. If they can't take bumping out in the field, if you keep them in, in there, in a paddock and they're never bumped, nobody in there with them, they are going to be scared when they get on a race track and a horse maybe bumps them a little, not meaning but they do bump. But if they're used to it, huh, you hit me, I'll smack you off, see how far you wanted to play that game

SMITH: Um, hum. Um, hum.

SCOTT: And I, I think it's, it's good, we kept the horses. Our daughter's first husband came over here originally from France to learn the horse business. He had worked for, been to school, was an officer in the French Cavalry. He had worked for Wildenstein who's a friend of the Jeffords and they said he wants to come over and then eventually go to Australia to see the way they train, race horses. So he came over here, first day, one day in the fall it was raining, it wasn't a cold rain, it was a rain. He said, "When do you want, when are you going to put the horses up?" I said, "Maybe it will quit." "You mean you're going to leave them out in the rain?" Well I said, "I've never 01:14:00seen a horse melted in the rain." I said, "No; it's not going to hurt them." "Huh in France we put them up the minute it starts raining." I said, "No we don't, we leave them out there." "Now," I said, "if it's a cold rain, that's different. This is a warm rain." And he was amazed at that and we ended up with uh, we had quite a number of young French boys came over.

SMITH: Really? I haven't heard about the French coming over, I hear about the Irish but not the French.

SCOTT: The French came over; they didn't stay like the Irish. The Irish stayed. The French just wanted to come over and look. We had quite a few, 4 or 5 at Faraway and Elmendorf had some and I don't know who all had, had the uh, French boys over here.

SMITH: So he met your daughter on his trip here?

SCOTT: Yes he met her and they fell in love and they were married and, and he decided he would stay here and then he had a unfortunate death.

SMITH: Oh I'm sorry.

SCOTT: We never knew whether it was murder or suicide.

SMITH: Oh I'm sorry.

SCOTT: That was a very tragic.

SMITH: Was this very long ago?

SCOTT: It was in 82, December 13th '82, they had two little girls. Amy was born in '87, I mean in '78 and Elizabeth was born '81.

SMITH: And what's your daughter's name?

SCOTT: Vella Carrick Scott Gambet and Collins now. (laughs)

SMITH: Oh my, okay.

SCOTT: The Gambet was the French, her French husband's name.

SMITH: Is that G-o?

SCOTT: G-a-m-b-e-t. The funniest thing, he and I ended up having a bloodstock agency and we were negotiating with the Aga Khan through French agents that we were doing business with to buy uh, Blushing Groom.

SMITH: Um, hum. Um, hum.

SCOTT: This was in the early 80's and we went over to, to see him, we were working for Bill DuPont, I mean negotiating for Bill DuPont and we were going to syndicate and we practically had the horse syndicated before we went over. So, uh, when we landed in Paris, Sturgill, and 01:17:00Jean Micheal, and myself, they said the Sturgill, Scott, and Gambet party (laughs). Don Sturgill said, "See, they don't know how to pronounce your name over here." He says, "They did that because I'm coming from America and they figured I was one of you all and you all always call it Gambet. He was a sharp horseman.

SMITH: Was he? Did you get the horse?

SCOTT: Well uh, we met, we went out to Chante and looked at the horse. Saw the horse and saw movies of his racing and all and went back. The Aga Khan invited us to have lunch there at his house at Chante and he 01:18:00told Don Sturgill, we offered 5 million dollars, uh, that that sounded good. But no, that he liked it but he'd like a little more and he said the same thing to our French, to Jean Micheal and the French agents in French, in French, so there was no language problem. So we went back to the Aga Khan's office and we talked it over and decided we could go for 5 and a half million. I said I think all the people I've talked to on a forty share syndicate, that's not going to amount to that much money and the horse is such a great horse and , all right. So we 01:19:00called the Aga Khan and he came over and we told him and he said, Well I'll consider it." Then he said, "I want to see a formal offer." This was on a Saturday night, Saturday afternoon. Sturgill and I were going to come back the next day; we had tickets to come back the next day and the French agent. Sturgill said, "I'll write the thing up," this was on a Friday because then the Saturday we went out to the Normandy, the Aga Khan took us out to see his farm there. Uh, Sturgill wrote a contract up, the French agents took it to him Sunday morning at the races, Sunday afternoon at the races and they called back and said 01:20:00when they took it to him and he read it, when they offered 5 and a half million, he said, "This isn't exactly what I was looking for." And they said, "Well what's wrong with the contract?" "I wanted 6 million." Well what had happened, we were staying at the Plaza, I went downstairs and there was a French agent I knew and "what are you doing over here?" "Oh," I said, "I had to come over and see Paris in the spring." Well he figured what it was, he was in with, with Gaines and called Gaines and said we were over there and Gaines upped the anti and so when we got word of what had happened, I said, "I'm through with it. It's, we're getting into a bidding war," and I said, "I can't keep going back 01:21:00to people, well it's up, it's up, it's up." I said," No,," I said, "I didn't mind the first up we made it, no." And Bill DuPont said, "No, I want no part of it so I won't underwrite the thing." Sturgill cabled him, "We withdraw our offer". The next, shortly thereafter Sturgill gets a note, "Well what is your new offer?" (laughs) And so he replied, "We make no new offer." "Don't you want to reconsider?" We said no. So he sold the horse to Gaines; I don't know what Gaines paid for the horse. But John got the horse and it turned out a, a uh, great thing 01:22:00for, for John because it was a good race horse, I mean, when he started as a three year old he had some bad races but uh, he was all right, he had the, most beautiful horse.

SMITH: What was his name again?

SCOTT: Blushing Groom.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: And uh, but that's an experience I had.

SMITH: Did uh, did you like the selling part of the business?

SCOTT: Yes it was fun then. The sales at Keeneland used to be kind of like old home week. You hadn't seen somebody for a year maybe and some of the, the people selling horses, some of the, the buyers you hadn't seen. I remember one, I've forgotten his name now, when he came 01:23:00up to look I knew uh, he was a doctor from California. His daughter trained for him. They wouldn't pay the top dollar but they'd be in there bidding up in the high end. Somebody you needed and, and all and he came to look and I went up to him, I couldn't remember his name and I said, "I'm Harry Scott," and I, Lord I knew it, remembered it for years, because, "I'm doctor so and so, I met you last year." I said, Oh yes doctor I remember meeting you but I didn't think you would remember me." And he looked at me like you're lying like a dog, you've forgotten my name (laughs). I, I, I had a good time with that.

SMITH: Yeah.

SCOTT: I had a uh, foal; it was 4 days old, spring meet of Keeneland. We, it, mare and foal had been turned out for the morning after it was born. Everything was fine, I left my foreman I said turn that mare back out, got her out some and the fellow and I were in the box. How he got Keeneland to do it, I don't know but I don't know what he said to them but they sent somebody up to the box, said you're needed at the farm right away. Foal's broken its leg. Well I knew, I just knew what it was, probably what had happened. I mean, -----------(??), so we came 01:25:00on back and Dr. Davidson had been here and said put the foal down and my foreman said, "This is the bosses foal and you can't put him down until the boss says to put him down and can't you do anything?" "Well, I'll think about it," and he called a good veterinarian with the firm, Craig Franks and Craig came out and looked and said , "Oh, Art let's try something. Well we were supposed to go help Bobby Copelan." Well they called Bobby and told him and Bobby said, "Bring the foal over here," because Bobby had a better operating room than, than Haggard, Davidson and McGee at the time and so the decision was made to take the foal over there. He broke it between the shoulder and the knee and it was fortunately an even break. And they took the foal and what they 01:26:00ended up doing was putting a metal plate, two plates sides and put him in a cast with a metal bar so the foot wouldn't touch the ground and up to his shoulder and they said, "Well, best to keep the foal here," and I said, "I agree." "Because," I said, "I only have one night watchman and you--", he said "We'll have more than enough help to get him up because, " he says, "he won't be able to get up by himself". So the next morning I drove back, foal was standing up. I said, "Oh he's up." "Oh," he says, "That foal can get up and down by himself," and he says, "he's learning when he doesn't want to fool with you he kind of swings that leg out (laughs)." He got so where he could play with that leg.

SMITH: Oh my.

SCOTT: And so I said, "How long are you going to leave him in the cast?" Well after, after the operation I asked Art Davidson, "What's this 01:27:00going to cost;" I said, "this is a good time to ask what's this going to cost, but what's it going to cost?" Art said, "If we charged you for our time, you couldn't afford it." And he said. "We can't charge you for our time because none of us knew what we were doing until we had conferences. So that's what took us so long. Somebody would say something and we'd figure out whether that was a good idea or a bad idea and which way to go. So," he says, "if it works and the foal lives and you can sell it, price will be one thing. If the foal dies, might not be anything because we're learning." I said, "All right." Well the foal lived and after much consultation they took off the cast, then the next thing they wanted to do was, we don't know when to do this, take those plates out because he said it will be very weak then. Well they took them out and healed back up and everything and he 01:28:00had on the inside of the leg about that long a straight line of white hairs. I, Art Davidson was inspecting the horses for the sale and I said, "You going to knock him out on that account?" "Oh," he says, "Oh no," he says, No reason to." And I said , "Do I have to announce it?" And he said, "No, wasn't in the rules, no reason to announce it." Had him out there at the sales and nobody commented on the white hairs until the, oh hell, the, the uh, he's a leg veterinarian, a very smart doctor but he's had some, he was mixed up in that thing with the Calumet horse over the Derby, you know the Calumet horse won it but 01:29:00this other horse had been given something.

SMITH: Harthill?

SCOTT: Harthill. Harthill looked at, and he does work for my brother and he was looking with some clients of his and he came over, "Harry what did he do, get in a wire fence?" He can see I've got no wire fences on the farm. I said, "No doctor," and I told him what happened, he knew it was a surgical incision because it was too straight.

SMITH: Right.

SCOTT: And but he wanted to see if I'd lie and I said, "No." I said, "Now let me ask you a question. Would you not throw the horse out because of that?" I said, "I'm not asking anything else of what you think of the horse but." "Oh no, no, no," says "there's one thing sure never break his leg there again." And he said, "No that would never 01:30:00stop me from buying him or recommending him." And so I forgotten, we got a good price for him and he went on and won races, he wasn't a great horse but he, he won.

SMITH: What was his name, do you remember?

SCOTT: I've forgotten his name now.

SMITH: That's okay.

SCOTT: But that just shows a good eye catches things.

SMITH: Yeah.

SCOTT: A lot of people looked at him; nobody else had questioned what was the white hairs.

SMITH: Except for Alex Harthill?

SCOTT: Yeah.

SMITH: And this would have been what in the 50's?

SCOTT: No this was in the 60's, this was in the 60's and Alex caught it, he would.

SMITH: Yeah, I've heard a lot of stories about him. So a good vet.

SCOTT: Oh yes! Oh yes. When my father died, had some horses in training with Doug Davis

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: who was a character and he was a good friend of, well Alex did his work and had this one colt that had ankle problems and Harthill says, "I can get those ankles looking good." And he says, "And get them down and they'll look good but whoever, if somebody wants to buy him tell him that we've worked on them and he shouldn't be worked hard, not raced for a minimum of 60 days." Well we, somebody from Chicago had heard about him and came over, we were up at uh, Jersey and Doug told them yes, by that time the ankles were perfectly normal. Said 01:32:00we've worked on them, the veterinarian says don't run him for at least 60 days but they bought the colt. About 20 days later he's in a race and he did nothing and the ankle blew up on them and Doug called them up and said, "I told you not to run that horse." And the trainer says, "I know it and, and I know exactly what you said but," he says, "that ankle looked so good he says we just couldn't keep from running him." And he says, "It's our fault." But I don't know what Harthill did but they said, because I didn't go up I let Dan handle that end of it uh, but he worked on him and those ankles, got that ankle down looking like a perfectly normal ankle.

SMITH: Did the horse have to be put down after that?

SCOTT: I don't know what happened to him whether they kept him for awhile and got him running again but I lost all track of him. He may have had, been put down.

SMITH: Now you've worked with so many horses and you've known so many great horses. Which ones, which ones have you been personally associated with stand out in your mind? Mares or--

SCOTT: --uh, I guess the greatest number of top outstanding mares were the Paul Mellon mares I had, I boarded for, for him. He would have them foal in Virginia and then uh, the sixth day put them on a van and bring them, on his van and bring them down.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: And uh, after the mare was in foal and wait about 60 days and take them home. He had beu-, magnificent pedigrees and, and great and 01:34:00I had, names are beginning to slip from me sometimes.

SMITH: That's okay.

SCOTT: He was a great race horse uh, back in the late 60's. He had bought the mare, it's when Bill DuPont's father died and they had a dispersal sale and Mr. Mellon bought this mare and at that time was a terrific, I think maybe one of the highest prices ever been paid for a mare and she had this foal. The foal had to be worth a lot of money. My foreman said, "What are you going with them," about that mare in foal, I said , "You gonna forget what he paid for her, you gonna forget 01:35:00what that foals worth and just treat it like any other horse." I said , "The minute we go to babying him or babying the mare we going to get in trouble." And that's what we did and got along fine. I, I think if you treat a horse as a horse you can get along but you go to baby them.

SMITH: Do you see that happen a lot these days?

SCOTT: I, I saw, had some horses for a client from Canada and you walk by the stall and they want to run at you and bite at you. I don't like a horse coming at me with -----------(??) and my foreman didn't either and we broke them. Couldn't figure out why all of them, I had four mares for this fellow and he brought some horses out to Keeneland to 01:36:00race and went out there to see him and the horses come up and look over the webbing and he', he'd hit at them, his nose playing with them with his hand, smacking their nose. So they came up and I said, "That's the man that's treated, he's going to be sorry some day because the horse is going to be quicker than he thinks and he's going to be losing a whole hand or a finger anyway."

SMITH: Um, hum. Um, hum.

SCOTT: And you, you will run into situation's like that and--

SMITH: --hum. You've mentioned your foreman; did you have a foreman who worked with you for a long time?

SCOTT: Yes. He worked, he started working here in 1950 and he worked here until, Sissy married in '74, so '74 and uh,

SMITH: What was his name?

SCOTT: He got to the point that he thought he owned the farm and had a foal, it was my own foal and I had a night watchman who was a good night watchman, but my foreman, his name was Marshall Wash. Marshall thought sometimes kind of make fun of my night watchman but he was a good man, a good foaling man and I told him what we had done with the foal and how we fed him. "Well he couldn't have been fed that way." I said, he said, "Bob couldn't have done that." I said , "It wasn't just Bob," I said, "We were out there, I was there I know what we did, I 01:38:00know how much milk we gave him and what medicine and all," and went on about it. "Well it shouldn't have been done that away." I said, "First place this is my horse, I got a right to do what I want to do with the horse." I said, "Second place," I said, "even if it was a clients horse, the ultimate decision is mine and I have to take the credit if it goes right and I have to take the credit if it goes wrong. They're not going to blame you. The client is going to blame me," and I said, "I have to be able to take the blame." And he had keys to the house and cars and everything and he said, "Here are my keys." Well my father 01:39:00said if man wants to quit let him quit. And I said, "Well," I said, "I'll be honest with you, I'm sorry to see you go, I wish you wouldn't but it's your decision." "Nope time for me to go." I said, "Okay, come on and I'll give you a check." It was the middle of the week I said, "I'll give you a check." And that's the way we ended it. I think sometimes employees; some employees can stay with you too long. I think that they get to the point, oh I'm doing this, he's not doing it, he's just walking around seeing what's going on--

SMITH: --right--

SCOTT: --but uh, but I have to do it all.

SMITH: Yeah.

SCOTT: And he could do, he was marvelous with the horse.

SMITH: He'd been with you then 24 years. A long time.

SCOTT: He was marvelous, dad said and dad, I don't know how many men he had working for him at Colonel Chinn's and at Faraway and all, he said he was the best horseman he had ever seen. Uh, he could get a horse, yearling, mare anything that didn't want to walk on a van and he'd make a circle with that horse about three times and they'd head right straight for the van and nine out of the ten the horse would walk in, you didn't have to do a thing. The horse would follow him in.

SMITH: Where did he go after he left you? Do you know?

SCOTT: Well he went next door for awhile but that wasn't going to work with brother--

SMITH: --okay--

SCOTT: --because brother wanted things just like I did. I want it 01:41:00done this way and brother had some different ideas about how to handle horses than I. Brother had been successful racing horses and all. Who was to say it's one of those things, whose to say things are wrong, that that's wrong and this is right, hey if, if both, both are working.

SMITH: Right.

SCOTT: And so he, he didn't last long with, with Dan; I knew he wasn't going to last long. So he started, and, and he could uh, come into this house and polish floors, Vella never had anybody could polish floors way he could.

SMITH: Aw.

SCOTT: Get on his hands and knees and rub them and put the wax on and let it dry, then get down on his hands and knees and rub it. Beautiful 01:42:00floors.

SMITH: Had he always worked with horses?

SCOTT: Had for years. He'd worked for E.K. Thomas over in Paris before he came here and I don't know where else but, but I've been very, and that's another thing that's changed here so when I first started there were a few farms that had white help but the majority of the help on the farms were, was black.

SMITH: Now was he black?

SCOTT: He was black.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: Oh, he had white blood, Indian blood, I don't know what all in him, I mean he was yellow skinned almost but a, a good horseman and, and, and all.

SMITH: Now how has that changed over the years? I mean I know Alice Chandler has talked about this, you know all the help her dad had and she had initially were African American and you know that's just almost completely gone.

SCOTT: Uh, the young generation, I had a young black working for me at Faraway, ba-, just in the summer, a summertime job and he was graduated from high school, was given a scholarship, why I think to Morehead or something like that, full scholarship and I said, I said, "Well I'm proud of you, you're getting a good education." "Well I'm not going to take it." I said, "What?" "Oh I'm working with this CORE program." I said, "It's great for the, for us." I said, "It may be but you better think about yourself and not just us right now. Here you've got a 01:44:00chance to advance, you, you've shown, you must be a good student to get a full scholarship to college, take that, get your education, come back if you want to work with your people, that's fine, got noth-, see nothing wrong with but get as much education as you can because," I said this is in late 60's. I said, "You're going to need all the education, everybody is and I said you've got the ability to do it." "No, sir." And I think the guy ended up, uh, I think he got on drugs and I ran into him in drug store, in a Kroger store one day, didn't 01:45:00even recognize him and he came up to me and told me who he was and he admitted, he says, "I sure made a mistake." He said, "I should have done what you told me to." It's tragic to see somebody just go down and I think the young blacks looked on that job working with horses as belittling, nobody belittled those men, we, we, we liked them not because they were black because they were good horsemen. They had a feeling for horses that a lot of the, the white help didn't have and but no they didn't want to go on. No I'm, I'm going to college--

SMITH: --yeah--

SCOTT: --I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that and this thing of the politicians talking about college for everybody, that's the most 01:46:00ridiculous thing I've ever hear of. Not everybody can, can hold their own in college to begin with and but what are we going to do, we need people to work on farms, we need brick layers--

SMITH: --that's right--

SCOTT: --we need brick layer helpers.

SMITH: So how did your help change say in the 70's, 80's and 90's?

SCOTT: I ended up with white help.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: I ended up lucky in 1971, needed a new night watchman at Faraway and my foreman heard about this fellow he knew, said he is a good horseman, wants to night watch. They had I think nine sons and the, the youngest was I think a teenager when they came there on up, now the 01:47:00older ones never worked for me, well one of the older ones did. Uh, but and Billy works for me now. They were a loyal and, and right now, uh, if I'm getting in trouble and need help I can get one of the other brothers who doesn't work for me, working with somebody else, will come and help me. Now that's loyalty.

SMITH: Yes that is.

SCOTT: And they are and Billy is loyal. Just, just like because of parking at, at doctor's offices particularly Lexington Clinic or out at Eagle Creek at their section out there. It's impossible to park close enough, I'd have to walk so far, well I can't walk, oh I can yes, but I mean, I'd, I'd be exhausted.

SMITH: Right.

SCOTT: So we'd take Billy to drive us, he was afraid, almost afraid of driving in Lexington if we just stayed on the main roads, I've got him now so he knows short cuts and all the way. (Smith laughs) But, but, but they're that way--

SMITH: --yeah--

SCOTT: --and--

SMITH: --since '71?

SCOTT: -- '71 and all, the older brother that worked for me was a character. You had to tell him exactly what you wanted done and if you laid it out he would do it as exactly as you said, no give to it. Told him once to paint the mailbox, he said, "The whole thing?" I said, "Yeah." I thought the whole thing what can you do. Came back and the inside of it was painted. (Smith laughs) "What did you paint the inside for?" "You said the whole thing didn't you. Isn't that part of it?" I mean what are you going to say? I said, "Yes, Beatty." I think 01:49:00sometimes it was a game with him.

SMITH: Yeah it might have been.

SCOTT: And when I hired him he said, "Who do I have to take orders from?" "That's from me and Jack McDowell," and I said, "If you are ever doing something and Jack comes up and says come on I want you to go with me and you can tell him I that I told you to do this and Jack still says go, you go on and I'll straighten it out with Jack if there's a problem." I was at Faraway one day and anyway I thought I was going to leave and Beatty was on the tractor mowing out in the field and I saw one of the other men and I said, "When Beatty comes out of that field I'm going to leave in a few minutes, tell him to do so and so and so and so whatever it was." "Yes, sir." Well I stayed longer and phone calls and all. Beatty came out of the field and this fellow was talking to him and I walked on out there. I said, "Beatty, did Beech tell you what to do?" "Yeah but I wasn't going to do it." Beech says, 01:50:00"You think I was lying?" Beatty said, "No," but he said, I said, "Well, why wouldn't you do it?" He says, "When you hired me didn't I, you tell me all I had to take orders from were you and, and Jack?" I said, "Yeah. He said, "Is he you or Jack?" (laughs) I said, "No but I told him to." "Well I can't take orders from him." That's the way Beatty was I mean.

SMITH: It sounds like it.

SCOTT: He was good.

SMITH: Beatty was his name?

SCOTT: Beatty. Oh there were, I think nine of those boys.

SMITH: Now were they white or African American?

SCOTT: White.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: White. And uh,

SMITH: Now was it hard for you to manage your farm and Faraway for the Jeffords?

SCOTT: No.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: Particular when Marshall was here and well even when he left 01:51:00suddenly I had one the Butcher boys that could take over.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: And, and, and all and I had a good foreman at Faraway.

SMITH: So as long as you had good help.

SCOTT: Yeah and, and they would work and in 1970 I had a very, very mild heart attack. Uh, they said that damage to my heart was the size of a pin head so but I was in the cardiac care unit for a week, for one week. Couldn't do a thing, I mean a thing for myself, they even fed me.

SMITH: Oh my.

SCOTT: And then I was allowed to go into a private room and after a day or two I could sit up, get out of bed, but for awhile I couldn't 01:52:00even get out of bed. Then but, but the point of this is going back to Mr. Jeffords, Walter Jeffords Jr. got concerned about his horses at Faraway. I said, of course I notified him at Vallejo and told him I had a heart attack and everything was under control. Marshall was here and Jack McDowell was at Faraway and Jack watched the horses close and, and Jeff said well just because you're not there he says get Dr. Proctor to come in everyday and look over the horses, look at each horse. I said, I mean, he told Vella that and Vella told me I said okay but I said, "I wanted, write down the name of each horse and the day that they examined them and, that he's looked at them and whether there's anything wrong". Why ----------(??) was agreed all to this and 01:53:00of course it was an easy thing for him to do, was getting paid for it, so he did it. But Jack told, said one day, Jack had gone over, would go over them before doctor got there and he saw a cut on a mare, it wasn't serious but he saw a cut and Dr. Proctor looked over and said, "Well this mares all right." And Jack says, "What about that cut on her leg?" "Oh well I'm glad you showed me that and I'll put some medicine on it." But you see he didn't catch it, he got in a hurry. But uh, I had men that took care of it.

SMITH: Yeah. Yeah.

SCOTT: And they, they knew, they had been with me long enough to know what I would, would do and.

SMITH: So how long were you working for the Jeffords then?

SCOTT: I, my father died the end of May of 1961 and I worked for them 01:54:00until in May of 1990, that's when Kay shut down the farm.

SMITH: Okay. Now when did um, Jeff?

SCOTT: Jeff died in maybe February, February of 90.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: They had a place in uh, it's on South Padre Island, Texas, he had property down there. And he was driving a car. They flew in, I don't, the closest place and driving on down to South Padre Island and Kay told me Jeff just slumped over in the car and the car started for an irrigation ditch. She didn't drive but she had sense enough to reach over and grab the wheel and cut the ignition off. Of course the car stopped and she, I think did hit the break and got and uh, there was 01:55:00traffic on the road and somebody came to her and, and helped her and Jeff had taken all the horses off of Faraway, they were up here.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: He had sold most of the mares and just kept a few and so she left them here and then she sold out two years ago I guess it was.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: Sally sold them out; Kay unfortunately developed Alzheimer's.

SMITH: That's tough.

SCOTT: And got to the point she didn't know what was going on.

SMITH: So her daughter, Sally was her daughter?

SCOTT: Sally was the daughter and they had two sons, John and George. But Sally is running the estate.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: She's a lawyer by trade, but not prac-, she hasn't practiced.

SMITH: So all the property is sold now? I mean the Jeffords?

SCOTT: Yes, they sold everything. They sold, got catalogs for it. Mr. Jeffords Sr. had been quite a silver collector. He was a member of a very exclusive silver collectors club. Sixteen million dollars worth of silver.

SMITH: Oh my gosh, that's quite a collector. Gee.

SCOTT: Yes and--

SMITH: --now where they successful in the business in the horse industry? The Jeffords, where they pretty successful?

SCOTT: You see they very seldom bought outside it was all home breds--

SMITH: --okay--

SCOTT: --and that makes a difference I mean of course the Phipps are all home bred and Calumet's home bred and all. They, they, they've won 01:57:00their, their share of major stakes.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: They won their share not in recent years but they were still winning good, uh, coming up from time to time. But their horses were, uh, I never saw books on them but I imagine the horses were, the racing stables was paying its own way but not greatly. It was not a profitable organization but one that they had fun with and, and they enjoyed. The Jeffords, Mr. and Mrs. Jeffords they just loved the horses.

SMITH: This is Sr?

SCOTT: Yeah, Jefford Sr. Jeff did of course when Kay, when Jeff died uh, she I think I may have told you this. She had this colt that was a 01:58:00two year old.

SMITH: Right, Lonesome Glory?

SCOTT: Lonesome Glory.

SMITH: Yeah. Yeah, that was a good story.

SCOTT: Won, won with prizes won over a million dollars.

SMITH: Yeah.

SCOTT: I think this other steeplechase was 600 thousand was the closest to him.

SMITH: Yes that is amazing. That's amazing. And they never had had any steeplechase?

SCOTT: No.

SMITH: Before that?

SCOTT: No and a little girl rode him, I said a little girl, daughter of the trainer. She adored the horse and I think the horse adored her. I don't think he hardly ever lost a race if she was riding.

SMITH: Really?

SCOTT: Uh, she, she says, "Oh I just kind of talk to Lonesome," says, "He's my buddy."

SMITH: So she rides him in the steeplechase?

SCOTT: Yeah.

SMITH: That's a rough sport.

SCOTT: Yes it is. And you see her, and still oh I don't know how 01:59:00tall he was, he was a big horse and see this, she was very thin and, and not real petite but small. Uh, you never think of her as riding steeplechase.

SMITH: Yeah.

SCOTT: She loved it.

SMITH: Well how about you, you've had quite a career yourself. When you look back over all your years with horses, was there a particular time period when you really felt like you, you were doing well and--?

SCOTT: --oh yes. Uh, in the, when the mid 50's on up to uh, uh, oh in the 70's and then I slowed things down doing more primarily uh, breed-, 02:00:00uh, boarding and then Jean Micheal and I were building up a good blood stock agency, Euro American.

SMITH: Is that the name of it?

SCOTT: Yes and uh, we were doing very well with that.

SMITH: Now did--

SCOTT: --then he died and we stopped because where I didn't speak French trying to deal with the French agents, uh, you know, you, you can, where two, where people speak different language you, you can get things mixed up awfully easily.

SMITH: Absolutely, absolutely.

SCOTT: And so I just thought well they, they were good agents but I just didn't want to want to get into a hassle with anybody and.

SMITH: So what year did you, did you close that company, the agency?

SCOTT: He died in '82 and so we ended the blood stock agency shortly there afterwards, I just said that.

SMITH: What was his name? I know I'm going to misspell it.

SCOTT: Jean, Jean Micheal Gambet, G-a-m-b-e-t. Gambet.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: He was from up near Deauville.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: We were over there in '77 and met, uh, yeah my mother- in- law 02:02:00was with us and Sissy and Jean Micheal had gone over earlier and we went over and met them and then took a tour of, met them in Paris and took a tour of France, this, went down the Loire Valley and then up into Brittany and then back over to Deauville and stayed there for two or three days. And then we came on back, well we went onto England. Vella, her mother and I and Sissy and Jean Micheal came on back home shortly there afterwards and had a great trip and met his family and they had a lovely compound in a little town, Caen. C-a-e-n.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: South of Deauville.

SMITH: So how long were you guys, you two in business together? A few 02:03:00years?

SCOTT: Oh we started about '75.

SMITH: Okay, okay. Did you enjoy that? Working at the blood stock?

SCOTT: Yes I enjoyed it. Enjoyed talking to people about horses we had uh, and [voice in the background] hi, well we're still taping.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: Uh, so it's, no it was fun but the, the business as I said earlier changed so, uh, with agents selling more horses for people uh, and then these big agencies were doing well and people were going to them. I don't blame them, I would too. I mean I, I say that and 02:04:00yet I don't know that I'd want to go into one of these big agent. The Jeffords had a uh, colt with one of the good studs down at uh, Land's En-, Lane's End and Sally said, "I think we'll sell him. Who would you get to sale him?" I said, "Lane's End." I said, "They will want to see him bring as much money as he can."

SMITH: That's right.

SCOTT: For you but really for themselves so they can say well look how well our produce of our stallions sell and he did do well uh.

SMITH: Yeah, that makes sense.

SCOTT: Pardon?

SMITH: Yeah that makes sense, you know to.

SCOTT: And uh, they did a good job, I went out there and watched. Uh, my contact mainly was with, with young Farish.

SMITH: Bill?

SCOTT: Yeah, was just as a nice a young man as I've, I've seen and, knowledgeable about what he was doing. The way they had that set up, they didn't miss a trick.

SMITH: Really.

SCOTT: How they, they, they'd see people coming and he's going to look and so and so horse. I don't see how they kept it going with the number they were selling and the number but they had people there watching which is the way to do it today.

SMITH: Yeah, it's different.

SCOTT: It, it was good business and I think their set up was as good as any I've ever seen.

SMITH: Looking back on your career are their any particular accomplishments you're most proud of?

SCOTT: My children.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: I'm most proud of my children.

SMITH: Now I know you have a daughter now who?

SCOTT: She is married and has, had two children whose, one of them is married and the other is not. The one that was married she is divorced now had three little boys.

SMITH: Now is that you're granddaughter or another?

SCOTT: That's--.

SMITH: --daughter?

SCOTT: Our daughter

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: Sissy. Sissy was married to the Frenchman.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: Our son, uh, he was an Episcopal Priest but when the Episcopal Church in '78 changed the prayer book and started ordaining women he left and went with a group that had broken off. They call themselves the Anglican Catholic Church, it's a growing group. He said he couldn't teach and preach something that he didn't believe in. He said 02:07:00he thought historically and from the Bible point it was wrong to ordain women and the changes in the prayer book were terrible because they cut out some thing's there was no reason to cut out just trying to pacify people. And well a good friend of ours who was an Episcopal Bishop, Robert Estill, we were friends here in school and he said that he had to admire how of being a man of principal.

SMITH: And what's your son's name?

SCOTT: Harry B. Scott III.

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: We called him Hal--

SMITH: --okay--

SCOTT: --because I was Harry Scott, my father was, was Harry and my father- in-law was Harry,

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: Harry Wise.

SMITH: You can't have three.

SCOTT: And, and one more Harry got, you were getting confused.

SMITH: That's right. Now does he live around

SCOTT: Now he, he had three children, three girls. The oldest, oh she can't be, 35, I think the oldest is 35 the next is, uh, 32 and then the next is, uh, 25. Uh, they, the oldest daughter and the youngest daughter are married, the middle daughter, uh, isn't.

SMITH: Okay. That's quite a family.

SCOTT: She uh. And the oldest girl that's married has two little boys and expecting another child, they don't know whether it's a girl or 02:09:00boy yet.

SMITH: Oh my.

SCOTT: So we had, see we had five granddaughters, now we have five great grandsons.

SMITH: Oh that's unusual.

SCOTT: Yeah.

SMITH: but fun. That, that's nice.

SCOTT: And we had one step granddaughter, a great granddaughter. Hal married this, met her at while he was in the seminary uh, been working at the Episcopal Church, uh, there in Washington with Bob. The church on the Cathedral Grounds. Uh, she had been married, her husband was in the air force, they had one child and she was pregnant with a second and he was in an air show there at Greensboro and his plane didn't come out of a maneuver and crashed. Said fortunately she wasn't there 02:10:00and the oldest child wasn't there and she said that is was hard on the little boy. Anytime for a long time when he'd see somebody in uniform, do you know where my daddy is?

SMITH: Oh how awful. -----------(??)

SCOTT: And but they, uh, the oldest child and the little boy she was carrying at the time they both grew up to be fine young men. Uh, the youngest boy is in City Planning in Vale, Colorado and the oldest one is working in, oh the construction company building houses down in North Carolina.

SMITH: That sounds like you have a family you can be proud of.

SCOTT: Yes we are proud of them. And uh--

SMITH: --well we've talked for over 2 hours and I generally don't like to ask anybody to talk longer than that but so let me ask you one more 02:11:00question and we can decide later if we want to talk some more another time. What has it meant to you to work with horses? What do you, do you have any? Hi--

SCOTT: --no we're still taping come on in--[voices in the background].

SMITH: That's okay we're almost finished.

SCOTT: What has it meant to be, to be in the horse business, around horses? I loved the first part of it. Uh, it was a thrill to think that I was working with uh, athletes, quality athletes and they were being owned and trained by people who loved them and appreciated them for that as, as quality athletes. Win, lose, or draw. They, they wanted a horse that, you know, would try. Uh, today from my point of view not, 02:12:00there are a few that are still left that feel that way, but today I'm afraid it's more of a ego trip for many of the owners and that they're in it for prestige of I've got the best horse, uh, the best stable and, and, and all and then there are trainers who, who cater to these people and, and it's, and it's a different ball game. Uh, you, you get a situation where such as Arthur Hancock was on the board at Keeneland and he got off because he said they were changing it said the majority 02:13:00of the board wanted it done and he didn't want to be the squeaky wheel in the thing. Everybody else wanted it, uh, maybe they were right, he didn't agree with them and I think you're seeing that. This is, this is why I'm glad I've retired, I'm out of it, I don't have to fight it like I, and it wasn't fighting it before, it was fun.

SMITH: I think Mack Miller; you know his response to that kind of question was he was in it at the very best time.

SCOTT: Hum?

SMITH: Mack Miller, his response is that he was in the industry at the very best time working with some great people and sounds like you feel kind of the same way.

SCOTT: I, I feel the same way that Mack did; it was, it was an honor and a privilege to be associated with those people. Uh, men that, Mr. 02:14:00Humphrey bought a farm down here we were boarding his horses, bought a farm over on the Ironworks Pike and he was going to build a barn, by this time he had retired as Secretary of the Treasury and he was uh, Chairman of the Board of National Steel. So he had a concrete block barn designed and let the National Steel design the roof to go on it and, and all. So um, I had a contact with a Mr. Anderson of National Steel to talk to him time to time about various things and Perry Lumber Company was building the barn and going to put the roof on. So Mr. 02:15:00Humphrey was down here and J.T. Perry came out, they were talking, and he said, "Well how are things coming?" "Well," he said, "we'll be ready for the roof in about two weeks, but" he says, "they tell me it's going to be about a month before they can get it out here." Mr. Humphrey looked at me and said, "Do you know anybody, anybody up there?" And I said, "I talk to a Mr. Anderson." "Well let's go call him." And I got Mr. Anderson on the phone and I said, "Mr. Anderson, Mr. George Humphrey is here and wants to speak to you." And he says, "Mr. Anderson this is George Humphrey," he says. "I'm down here in Kentucky and the contractor," he exaggerated a little, "is waiting on that roof." This was on a Monday or Tuesday and he said uh, "Have that roof down here Saturday. Mr. Anderson you didn't understand me I said I want it down here Saturday, thank you very much, goodbye," and hung the phone up. And he turned to me and he says uh, "See, let me 02:16:00know when they get it here." I said, "Yes, sir." So Saturday morning I went over there around 8 o'clock and there sat this truck with all this steel on it and I said," Well you found us," to the driver. "Yeah," I says, "Who is this guy Humphrey? I says, "He's Chairmen of the Board of National Steel the parent company of Strand Steel." "Well," he says, "I knew he was important because they told me," says," if that truck breaks down don't get it fixed, buy a new one and go on (laughs)."

SMITH: He could get things done.

SCOTT: He got things done, he was always very nice and very, he wasn't mad I mean he just, you didn't understand me Mr. Anderson, have to have it here Saturday, thank you very much, goodbye. He said he never believed in long letters and long conversations.

SMITH: Yeah it sounds like it; it sounds like you worked with some really great people.

SCOTT: He, he was very nice. He came back here to look at his horses, he had a plantation at Thomasville, Georgia

SMITH: Okay.

SCOTT: that Eisenhower visited and Mrs. Humphrey said it shocked her, she never thought about it until one time she went into Thomasville and called back to the plantation for something she wanted to question somebody about and said this voice, this strange voice picked up said, "Thomasville White House." (Smith laughs) And she explained who she was and who she wanted to speak to and she got it but said it wasn't until they said Thomasville White House she realized my gosh we do have the President down here don't we and uh. What was the President's wife's 02:18:00name?

SMITH: Mamie.

SCOTT: Mamie kissed him goodbye when they were leaving and some photographer happened to be there and got the picture of it. So when they were stopped up here Mrs. Humphrey said on the plane flying up here the hostess looked up and said, "Oh, you're the man that Mamie kissed aren't you?" The, the Humphrey's were delightful people, he gave Hal and sent it to him each person had a special plate to, to put on their automobiles during their inauguration. It had the President, picture of Eisenhower and of Nixon on it and he saved his, his says I've got to many grandchildren I'd like, I'll have to cut it in small pieces and he said so I'll give it to you and so it's up in Hal's room now.

SMITH: Really?

SCOTT: It's, it's uh, it's something to have.

SMITH: Yeah, yeah I'd say so. I'd say so.

SCOTT: But it was dealing with people like that.

SMITH: Paul Mellon, you liked him?

SCOTT: Hum?

SMITH: Paul Mellon.

SCOTT: Oh Mr. Mellon was, Mr. Mellon was, was tops too. I know and a man that knew horses. Mr. Humphrey knew horses; these people knew what they were looking at when they looked at a horse. It wasn't, they didn't have anybody tell them anything, they knew. The Jeffords Sr.'s knew. Kay didn't know a great deal, she was learning but Jeff knew horses. Uh, he knew what he was looking at and how to bred them hopefully that you were producing good horses. And uh--

SMITH: --makes a difference to work with somebody who understands it 02:20:00doesn't it?

SCOTT: Yes. Uh, there was a Baron; he was a white Russian, Baron D' Austin--

SMITH: --D' Austin?

SCOTT: Came here after the war, some people implied that he was a Nazi sympathizer but he says he got along with him best he could to save horses in France. He said there were three kinds of owners. He said there is the owner that knows horses and understands, understands about them and said he's easy to work for. He said and then there is the owner that knows nothing about a horse but is willing to listen to you and he said he's easy to work for, he says, or work with and he said 02:21:00then there is the owner that knows nothing about a horse but thinks he knows everything and he says he's impossible to get along with.

SMITH: Did you ever have one of those? As a client? Not yet? (laughs)

SCOTT: No, fortunately I didn't. I had good clients, I had some Canadian clients. I got them, um; I had one client--[voice in background]--huh? Yeah, Sam Rogers from Virginia was a great client. He had a uh, Rogers and Wilkins flour mill. They made Life Magazine once--

SMITH: --okay--

SCOTT: --for a sign they put up. Their flour mill was near some rendering company and so they put up a big sign. The smell you get 02:22:00is not coming from Rodgers and Wilkins Flour Company and it made the cover of Time magazine, or of Life magazine. And then, no, I, I've had good clients. Had the President of Electrolux of Canada for a client, delightful man. He was Pennsylvania Dutch and he couldn't pronounce V's could he? I think, I think he pronounced you as Wella. I think, but it was because he--[voice in background]--huh? Mr. Graul.

SMITH: Graul?

SCOTT: Graul. G-R-A-U-L.

SMITH: Okay. And he had a place up uh, near Montreal but they all 02:23:00were, and then I had a Canadian breeders McClellan's from Canada. Uh, had Bill Backer from Virginia and New York. He was advertising, he got, made Miller Brewing Company the big name it is today. They were advertising Miller the Champagne of Bottled Beer. He got them to drop it because it was to fancy and uh, he wrote a book about, oh and he, he did uh, the Coca-Cola thing, uh, you know that song they had about 02:24:00singing, the choir singing, kids singing.

SMITH: I, I think I know the commercial you're talking about. Yeah.

SCOTT: He got that and in his book he said he got it, he was flying to, to uh, England but they had to put them down in Ireland because all the English airports were fogged in and they went into, he went into the restaurant there and uh, everybody, most everybody had ordered a Coca-Cola and he said it gave him the idea for this song.

SMITH: Yeah, huh and he was, he had horses with you?

SCOTT: He had horses and he married, married very late in life because Bill is our age. Uh. What did he name his farm? Smitten.

SMITH: Smitten (laughs).

SCOTT: Yeah he was Smitten with his wife. Smitten Farm so it's, it's 02:25:00been a pleasure knowing these people and dealing with them.

SMITH: Well, I tell you what, we will go ahead and stop this for now and then you and I, see if I can figure out how to do that.

[End of interview.]