Interview with Theodore "Ted" Bates, April 15, 2008

SMITH: All right, this is Kim Lady Smith, and today is April 15th --

BATES: --fifteen--

SMITH: --2008. I am at the Bates Farm and I'm not recording too well here, let me--part of the reason I talk is to try to get the sound levels right.

BATES: Um-hm.

SMITH: Um, I am at the Bates Farm in Lexington, Kentucky interviewing Ted Bates for the University of Kentucky's Horse Industry Oral History Project. And I'm still not getting the right sound level, give me a minute here and I'll, nope, that's the wrong way. They give me these things, now what happened? Too low, there we go. All right. Okay Mr. 00:01:00Bates, if you could, if we could start and I'll ask you to tell me your full name and when and where you were born.

BATES: My full name is Theodore Bright Bates. I was born in Carrollton, Kentucky in 1923. I'm thankful for the three miles that, uh, separated my home from the Ohio River. Ex-, except for three miles, I would not have been born a Kentuckian.

SMITH: Oh. (laughs) Tell me about, tell me a little bit about your parents. Anything--

BATES: My parents, my father was from Carroll County, at, at Carrollton. My mother was from Eminence, Kentucky, uh, and I was born in Carrollton as I said. Uh, soon after that we moved to, uh, Eminence, Kentucky, where my mother's mother and father lived. My father began 00:02:00practicing law in New Castle.

SMITH: Okay. What was your father's name?

BATES: Theodore W. Bates. So he, he practiced law in New Castle for a few years and, uh, we lived in Eminence. Then, soon he went to become what, uh, part of the administrative, law administration of the Federal Land Bank in Louisville. Then we moved to Louisville. Uh, I never gave up Eminence, I, I enjoyed Louisville and, but I always called Eminence home and, uh, I had, I had the advantage in Louisville, going to Louisville Male High School which now would be a ma-, at, called a magnet school, it was a, it was a great high school, and made a lot of friends in Louisville but the day I graduated from Male, I went back to Eminence.

SMITH: Oh.

BATES: So I called it, I've called it home ever since. I had a--

SMITH: --now--

BATES: I had a wonderful youth there with my grandparents, and, uh, I had the best of both worlds. I had my parents in Louisville when I wanted to go there, and, and, and the grand little town of Eminence when I wanted to, wanted that.

SMITH: Now what did your grandparents do?

BATES: My grandfather was a farmer and, uh, served several terms in the Kentucky Senate and was then elected Commissioner of Agriculture.

SMITH: And what was his name?

BATES: Newton Bright.

SMITH: Newton Bright.

BATES: Newton Bright. And he was, really he was my hero. Uh, I guess I took my like from farming from him, uh.

SMITH: He had a farm?

BATES: Yeah, he had two or three farms. Uh, and then, and then he was--

SMITH: Let me take that away from you so you won't do that. (laughs)

BATES: Okay. Then he was, uh, Commissioner of Agriculture.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: So, uh, it, it was a great, it was a great privilege to, to live with them, and just gentle loving people. So--

SMITH: Did you work on the farm when you were there? Did you help out?

BATES: Yeah, some, um-hm, yeah. He had lost, he'd, he didn't have his farms when I went back, because he had retired, but, uh, I worked on other farms. And then, uh, World War II was coming along, it looked like it was coming along, and my parents insisted that I go to a military school.

SMITH: Oh.

BATES: So I went to the Citadel in Charleston, South Carolina, and was 00:05:00there one semester and contracted tuberculosis. So then I came back home and from the treatments and surgeries and se-, several things, I was, it was five years before I got back to school. Then I came where I wanted to come in the first place, the University of Kentucky. So then I came up here and because I was late, I went straight through; I went to summer school as well as fall and spring.

SMITH: So what year did you start, at UK?

BATES: I grad-, well I got through in 1950. Uh, I lacked three hours, which wasn't worth coming back to school for. So I finished that up in 1952 by correspondence.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: But, when I got through to university in August of 1950, I went 00:06:00to work at Coldstream Stud, which is now the Coldstream Research Park.

SMITH: Um-hm. What was your degree in?

BATES: Agriculture, Bachelor of Science in agriculture. So, I went to work, I was the only groom in Fayette County that had a college degree, I think. But, anyway, that was the best way to learn, there were no, you, no count no, uh, classes at the university in equine management or, the only one was a riding class, I think which didn't amount to anything.

SMITH: Did you want to work with horses?

BATES: Oh yeah. So I, I went to Coldstream, uh, a man, uh, the manager, a man named Charlie Kenney he had a policy of taking a new, a new boy every other year. So I came along when he was ready for another one. Some that had gone before me, immediately before me, was a fellow 00:07:00named Pup Endicott and before Pup Endicott was Ralph Kercheval.

SMITH: Kercheval, okay.

BATES: And Kercheval of course had a great career in the Southeastern Conference football and NFL, and came back and managed Mereworth Farm for Walter Salmon for years. Uh, so I went to work at Coldstream, Mr. Kenney's foreman was a man named Melvin Cinnamon who was a man who had gone to school through the sixth grade, galloped horses in the morning before he went to school those years, uh, worked as a groom in the afternoon, really learned it from the ground up and I was fortunate to have him as a foreman, and he, he was a great teacher 00:08:00too. Mr., I've often said, Mr. Kenney taught me the horse business, and Melvin Cinnamon taught me horse husbandry. So during that time I wanted to get married and I was making a hundred and fifty dollars a month, a month that is, and I couldn't get married for that, so I went--the university had asked me to, to take a job in the extension, so I decided to do that, and they s-, a-, asked me to go to Shelby County as assistant county agent. So I went there and, uh, got married incidentally to a girl in Shelbyville, I, I mean we knew each other before. It's just coincidence that they sent me to Shelbyville.

SMITH: What was her name? What's her name?

BATES: Evelyn Nash. She was the daughter of Dr. Harmon Nash. So, I-- 00:09:00served as, as an assistant county agent for I think about four years and my friend Melvin Cinnamon accepted a job for Elizabeth Arden, the cosmetics lady, to manage Maine Chance Farm which was on the Newtown Pike, and Melvin called me to be, come be his assistant, which I was glad to do, 'cause I wanted to be with horses anyway. So--

SMITH: Now, was he a foreman?

BATES: He was my foreman at Coldstream.

SMITH: So what was his job with--

BATES: He was a manager at, at Maine Chance.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: And I was his assistant. We went there in 1956 and, uh, were there two years. Ms. Graham was not an easy, Ms. Arden, she is Elizabeth Arden Graham, really. She was, she was a difficult to work 00:10:00for, uh, but we, we made it two years, then--

SMITH: Why was she dif-, how was she difficult?

BATES: In what she demanded and not particularly what she demanded from Melvin and me, but the, the, the help. She was critical of us people and, uh, it was just wasn't pleasant. About that time, Mr. Paul Eblehardt who was manager of Calumet was struck by lightning while playing golf over to the Lexington Country Club, and he, he, he survived but was never able after that to, to keep a job with any responsibility. He couldn't make a decision, and just was kind of there. Miss Graham, I mean Miss Markey at Calumet took him back, saved 00:11:00his job for him, took him back and let him try to be manager again but he couldn't do it. So she, then she asked Melvin to come manage Calumet and he asked me to go with him. So we went to Calumet on, uh, Jan-, January of 1958 and I was there until September 1963. Calumet was a wonderful experience. We lived on the farm, they were doing some of the things that were done in, in the past years; they aren't done anymore. For instance, they had a horse wa-, a wagon pulled with two mules and, and a, and a black man who drove them to the paddocks and picked up the manure out of the paddocks so--to keep it, to clean and 00:12:00the worm count down and so on like that. And my two kids, I've got a picture of them sitting up on that spring wagon beside of the man. They'd go around with him, they'd stay on the wagon, he, just my kids and the black fellow and them two mules.

SMITH: Oh gee.

BATES: It was great. And that--

SMITH: And by that time when people using tractors and other things besides ---------- (??) ?

BATES: Oh, sure there were, but that was just a custom that Calumet had c-, had continued. Yeah, it was picturesque.

SMITH: Yeah.

BATES: So, uh, oh there were great moments on Calumet. We, uh, I, I don't know, wouldn't know where to start with the stories but, on, on the, one day we were at the breeding shed, and, uh, here came a fellow on a, on a mare he rode up, ri-, had ridden through the farm and he 00:13:00rode up to the breeding shed and got off and he said, uh, "I want to breed this mare." And we said, "Well, did you make an appointment?" And he said, "No, I just rode her over." (laughs) We said, if he wanted, you, "We've got these books you know, you've got to make an appointment. You call the, call the office, make an appointment and then we will breed her, but we've used all the horses today." So, things like that happened that, that are humorous. Uh we--at that farm we had, we had a great roster of stallions headed by Bull Lea who was one of the premiere sires of our time, of any time. And we had Tim Tam who won the Derby in '58, we had Citation who won the Derby in '48, we 00:14:00had a horse called Sun Again, Ponder who won the Derby, Pensive who won the Derby. It was a great stallion roster. Uh.

SMITH: Did you work with the breeding program?

BATES: I did. I was in, I was at, I was in charge of the breeding and then we had, he had a, a foreman that looked after the r-, racing, breaking the yearlings and, and, and send them off to the track. The Bull Lea story, uh, one summer night came up a, a really severe electrical storm and the thunder and the cracks of lightning woke me up and I looked out and, and in the flashes of light you could see Bull 00:15:00Lea's paddock was the closest to my house. I could see him standing under a walnut tree and so I called, I got on the phone, called the night watchman to get him up. Well, I couldn't find the night watchman.

SMITH: Oh.

BATES: So I wasn't going to let that, that horse, have anything happen in the paddock. So I got up and went up to the paddock, I, out to the shack and went out and he was, he was, he, he was a ho-, he was a male horse, he'd, he'd try to get you if, if you were lax and weren't careful. But I walked across that paddock and he was still under that walnut tree. When I got close to him I saw he was as frightened as I was. (laughs) So, snapped on to him and led him back across the paddock, and a--that was really eerie feeling, with lightning popping 00:16:00all around and here I was with a chain attached to a horse, which is almost a perfect magnet. And, uh, we g-, got to the barn and I put him in his stall, and I can see the relief, I could see him feel much better about being in.

SMITH: So he, he didn't put up any resistance.

BATES: None at all, he, he wa-, he wanted to get to the barn as much as I did. So that, that, I became closer to him then than at any other time. And we had some other good times like that, but--

SMITH: Did you have a favorite horse while you were out there, one of the stallions?

BATES: I believe my favorite was Citation.

SMITH: Hmm. Why?

BATES: He won a lot of races because of his determination, as well as his speed. But he kept that determination until the day he died. He, 00:17:00uh, when you went in to give him a shot or anything else, it, it was a chore. I mean he still knew what a needle was from, uh, remembering his last shot, uh, but I, I admired that in him.

SMITH: Yeah.

BATES: And when tourists would come--at that time tourists just came in free, freely, at Churchill--at, uh, Calumet, and when tourists would come out to look at him, he'd, he'd just pose. He knew he was being admired, and from the track, you know, at the track, after the race and, uh, he'd had his picture taken probably hundreds of time. But he, he would actually pose; he'd stop and prick his ears and look up. 00:18:00(laughs) I think he was my favorite.

SMITH: Was he particularly intelligent?

BATES: Very, very intelligent. The only horse that wasn't too intelligent was Tim Tam. Uh, he just, he was a Tom Fool line of's, uh, stu-, male line. Tom Fool was not a particularly aggressive horse, as far as breeding goes, and Tim Tam inherited some of that. So we spent many hours waiting for Tim Tam to, uh, be interested in breeding.

SMITH: Oh, okay.

BATES: But, uh, somebody said he was smart enough to run fast, so-- (both laugh)

SMITH: I guess that's all that matters at some point, huh.

BATES: Yeah. So then, let's see, okay after Calumet.

SMITH: Now why did you leave Calumet?

BATES: Hmm?

SMITH: Why did you leave Calumet?

BATES: I left because I was offered a job to manage a farm on the Keene 00:19:00Road in Nicholasville, called, uh, Foxtail, for a gentleman, uh, named Burton Leasy (??) and, who was out of, in Houston, and a nice man. And, uh, I was there seven years, and then what, that was through '69.

SMITH: Now what did, what was your job there?

BATES: I was the manager.

SMITH: Farm. Okay.

BATES: Then Fasig-Tipton wanted to come back to Kentucky. They had been here previously, had left and now thought it, it was a good time to come back, and it was. They, there should have been two sales companies. So they wanted somebody who had been around a while so I was fortunate that they asked me to be the general manager here.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: We didn't have a place, so we leased the training center down here, Thoroughbred Training Center, the corner of Johnston Road and Paris Pike. Uh, there was a track there, uh, and administrative building. We leased that and had our first sale in October of, uh, 1970, I guess it was.

SMITH: Okay, okay.

BATES: Nineteen seventy-one, maybe. And, uh, then in 1974 the first sale was the breeding stock sale, mixed sale, and for the first three years it was a mixed sale. In 1974, we, uh, wanted to have a yearling sale in July. So, but earlier in '74, because of a glitch in the 00:21:00rental agreement, we left there. So we didn't have a place to have a yearling sale. So Henry Alexander had a farm out on the Old Frankfort Pike, uh, almost to Nugents Crossroads on the right there. And he built two new barns; each had twenty-four stalls in it. And we, we made an agreement with Henry that to use those barns for a sale. So we went about the inspection process and all that, but we could only take forty-six of the forty-eight stalls, we left one stall in each barn for people's tack and all that, but it was really crowded, but a good crowd 00:22:00showed up and at that sale, we sold Bold Forbes who later won the Derby and the Belmont, and a horse called Elocutionist who the same year won the Preakness.

SMITH: Wow.

BATES: Out of a, out of a total of forty-six head. Uh, then, then by the next year, we had barns built in nineteen seven--by 1975, July. We had barns built and, uh, could, could stable more horses. Out of that sale, Fasig-Tipton sold Seattle Slew and I had the good memory, privilege of looking at him on the farm, inspecting him to, uh, either accept him for the sale or not accept him. But I did accept him, and, 00:23:00uh--

SMITH: What did you think of him?

BATES: Oh, I liked him from the start, and, and here again, one reason I liked him, was because of his determination. I got to the farm before they were in the, in the, in the stalls, so, usually you go to the farm they have every horse stabled and they bring them out one at a time and so on. Well I got there before that. So they were getting up his group, this horse that later turned out to be Seattle Slew, and he was the dominant one in the field, he was gonna be first in the barn, and he was at the gate and he kept all the others away, and they took him in first and then the others just went on-, in one at a time. I liked that. He looked, he, he looked aggressive, intelligent, he had, oh, as all do have some slight per-, imperfections, but they were not major 00:24:00enough to, to preclude his being in the sale.

SMITH: What did you think about the price he sold for?

BATES: Oh--(laughs)--that was, that was inexpensive even then. But out, out of that too, we had a beautiful Derby weekend and all, and the, and the owners were here, and the jockey, and, uh, we had, had 'em all to dinner and, and feted 'em, uh, but out of it formed two great friends, have been friends ever since, and Dr. Jim Hill and his wife Sally are still good friends. And, uh, in fact, Dr. Hill keeps his horses here.

SMITH: Oh, okay.

BATES: So it was a, it was just a good remembrance. Well, then after that, I, I really I guess I was oriented for the farm, because after I 00:25:00had been there seven years, I got the feeling that I wanted to go back to the farm. So I went to work for a few months for Arthur Hancock, and, uh, and Arthur's and my personalities clashed, I think, and so I was there, only there a few months. And then I went to work for, uh, Wimble-, Wimbledon Farm, Hilary Boone, and I stayed there four years. During that time I meet this, uh, the Iraqi people, well they were really Lebanese.

SMITH: Oh.

BATES: Uh, and they decided they wanted to buy a farm. So I helped them 00:26:00find the land which was on the Combs Ferry Road, and then after that, I was glad to be asked to design the farm, lay it out, and help, help build it, so we did that, and, uh--

SMITH: What was the name of that farm?

BATES: We called it, uh, BKY, for the actual owner, uh, B. K. Yusif, Y-u-s-i-f. (coughs) And, and his initials. Uh, he, I understood, was the agent that furnished the equipment and the trucks and the cars for the oil fields for the sheikhs. He wasn't a sheikh.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: And his commissions were enormous, of course.

SMITH: Now was this in Iraq or--

BATES: In Iraq and, and Iran too, probably, and Lebanon. Uh, but then there was a glitch in the oil production in '85, '84, or '85, I've forgotten just which. And his commissions stopped coming and he stopped sending money to support the farm, and we only had his horses there, we didn't have any board mares. So, then he wanted me to sell it, like overnight, which I couldn't do. So, uh, so I le-, I left, I left that. Really, he, he, he would have fired me--(both laugh)--because I didn't sell it. Then, I leased a f-, uh, leased a farm on a, uh, uh, a small 00:28:00farm [telephone rings] where I stayed a year-- [telephone rings]

SMITH: Go ahead.

BATES: --and, uh [telephone rings] where I stayed a year. Then, Paul Miller, who had the Ford agency here, wanted to, uh, get into the horse business, Paul Miller and, uh, Kermit Blackburn. So I helped them find a farm and, and they, they just had the farm and needed to stock it, so I leased the farm too, and took my [telephone rings] horse, took my horses there.

SMITH: If you need to get that, go ahead.

BATES: Can you cut it off?

SMITH: Um-hm. [telephone rings]

[Pause in recording.]

SMITH: Okay, all right.

BATES: Okay, so where was I. So I moved, so I lea-, I rented Paul Miller's farm and we begun, and bought him some mares, uh, and we went 00:29:00along for a few years, and well, three years, I guess, and then had, at that time, he put, he decided it wasn't his, as enjoyable as he wanted it to be, so he put the farm for sale, Mr. Miller did. And when he, when he did that, I thought I better start looking around. So, this farm, Mr. Whitaker had a dispersal and he got out in ninet-, eight-, 1989.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: And so this farm became available and I moved here the first day of February 1989, and I've been here, almost tw-, next February will be twenty years.

SMITH: Okay. What kind of an operation is this, do you--

BATES: This is a breeding, breeding operation, and I, I, principally board for other people.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: I have four mares of my own, but then my clients, people who live away from here and or don't have farms. Uh, I keep their mares and their concurrent yearlings and break their yearlings and send them off as two-year-olds to whomever they want to train. Some we prep for sales, instead of breaking to r-, to race, we prep them for yearling sales and take them to the sale. So it's a full operation.

SMITH: So you work as, you're a consignor as well?

BATES: Yes I, yeah, I do, um-hm.

SMITH: Okay. Okay.

BATES: So--

SMITH: Have you all--?

BATES: --we consign and sell for other people as well as ourselves.

SMITH: Okay, okay.

BATES: The, uh, the Thoroughbred industry, when I first knew it, was 00:31:00competitive, uh, but filled with people that seemed, uh, have a sense for living, it, and, and I, I, most of them were people who had done horses all their lives. And I think there's a, there's an influence that you get from being with horses. I've always told myself that's why I did it. Uh, there's an innate peace and, uh, appreciation of, 00:32:00of their majesty, and as it, as it was then, uh, the camaraderie of, of your colleagues, and that, tha-, that, those things really are what attracted me. Somehow, I knew all, I kn-, I've never had any doubt as to what I wanted to do. And my parents and grandparents never were interested in horses, my father had a box at the Derby, kept it through the Depression, and my mother said we did without some other things, but we never did without that box. (laughs) So, she kind of resented keeping the box during the Depression. But, uh--

SMITH: Do you remember going to the Derby as a child?

BATES: When what?

SMITH: Did you, did you go to the Derby then as a child?

BATES: Oh yeah, every year. I had a string of vic-, of attendances f-, 00:33:00that stretched for a long time until just lately. Uh, my grandfather, of course, was a farmer and I admired him and so I, I just kind of put the two together.

SMITH: Did you enjoy the races?

BATES: Yeah. Yeah, I do, I, I go, I go now for a race, or a horse that's in a race, or something like that. I seldom go and spend the day at the races, but I, I keep up the work with them through the racing form.

SMITH: Is there any particular Derby that stands out in your mind?

BATES: Well, I have to think it's the Seattle Slew Derby, had to be. Second would be the Bold Forbes' Derby.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: Nobody thought he could go a mile and a quarter, but he did. Uh, 00:34:00but we just couldn't believe, Seattle Slew was undefeated, you know, through the Triple Crown. And I, I enjoyed, uh, I enjoyed that and it was one, it was one incident that was all positive, from the time we saw him in the field to the, till he crossed the finish line. It was all positive and with a good people.

SMITH: Did you ever think he was going to be that good of a horse? Is there any way to tell?

BATES: No. Not for me to tell.

SMITH: Um-hm, hmm, hmm. Well, I'm going to, uh--we've kind of gone through your life pretty quick, so I'm going to pull you back to, to some of, um, your earlier years. Um, you, uh, when you worked as a county agent, what kind of work was that, extension agent?

BATES: That was with adults, but also with the youth.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: Uh, 4-H clubs, where you, you, uh, encouraged the youth to have projects on the farm, uh, and, and to actually get into farming.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: --by, by their projects that they do.

SMITH: And that was all types of farming?

BATES: Oh yeah, yeah, all farming.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: But they had, oh they, they had, they raised beef cattle, hogs, sheep, you taught 'em how to clip 'em, clip sheep you know, and, and uh, it, it was a review of things we'd gone through it in, in school, you know.

SMITH: Right.

BATES: But I enjoyed it, watching the k-, them grow, watch those kids grow, and of course some friends, a lot of them even yet. They are in farming or some other business, some of 'em.

SMITH: Yeah.

BATES: But I still hear or see some of those k-, those young people.

SMITH: Um-hm. And, so you went from there to, um, let's see if I have this right, Ms. Arden's Farm, or--

BATES: Oh, let's go back. Well I did, as in a county, as assistant county agent, I worked with adults too.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: --you know, on visiting farms and, uh, uh, advice as to whatever their problem was, and so I enjoyed, I enjoyed working with both adults and with kids. Uh, from that, I did go to, uh, Maine Chance Farm for Miss, Miss Graham, Miss Elizabeth Arden.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: Yeah.

SMITH: Okay. Huh--

BATES: Each, each phase of, has really been interesting, I think that's why I keep on doing it. (laughs)

SMITH: Now when you were there, were you working with breeding as well?

BATES: Yes, um-hm.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: You say--

SMITH: Has that always been--

BATES: Yeah, breeding.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: Yeah.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: Yeah, we had, we, we had all the horses there were hers, just like all the horses at Calumet belonged to Ms. Markey and so, but we, we raised her yearlings every year with which she re-stocked her racing stable.

SMITH: Um-hm. Was she very successful with racing?

BATES: Moderately.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: Moderately

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: Moderately.

SMITH: So--

BATES: She won the Derby with Jet Pilot.

SMITH: Aw, okay.

BATES: And, uh, forgotten just what he year he won but, let's see--

SMITH: It wasn't when you were there?

BATES: Hmm?

SMITH: It wasn't while you were there, right?

BATES: No, it was just before.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: And she, basically she was, she was all right, but she, she, uh, I think her racing suffered because she was so demanding of her trainers, and she would keep firing 'em and wouldn't give 'em, and then 00:38:00tried to advise them as they went along. If you're going to hire a trainer, let him do his work. But she kept putting in her way. One time, I asked her which was the best trainer she'd ever had and she said, "Tom Smith was the best and the worst."

SMITH: Ho.

BATES: (laughs) I said, "How do you mean that?" She said, "When I first had him, he trained Jet Pilot, he was the best. When he came back after some other trainers and trained at the end, he, he was the worst."

SMITH: Huh.

BATES: But that was a tough job. He should have known not to come back. (both laugh)

SMITH: Oh, um, when you went to Calumet, uh, Ben and Jimmy Jones they were there then?

BATES: Yes.

SMITH: Okay. What do you remember about them?

BATES: Oh, uh, they, they were enjoyable memories. Uh, they were on the 00:39:00farm seldom, really.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: They were at the track most of the time. Until there was a cottage on the farm where they stayed when they were back. I had a standard poodle dog that rode in the back of my pick-up truck, and Mr. Ben Jones fell in love with that dog, and he wa-, he, he wanted to buy it and he'd ask, and I said, "No sir, he is not for sale." And, uh, so he asked me two or three times and I said, "No." And, finally he said, "I'll give you a hundred dollars for that dog." Hundred dollars back then was a good deal of money. I said, "No sir, Mr. Jones, I, I'm never going to sell that dog." So, what he would do is come over in the 00:40:00evening after dinner and sit in my front yard and visit with that dog, not every night, but occasionally, uh, once every couple of weeks. And so I had great experiences with him. [fan noise]

SMITH: Oh, better turn that off. Thank you.

BATES: And I looked forward to those, those times, and those memories. And then, after he died I kept in touch with Jimmy and, uh, did a dispersal for him of one of his friends in, uh, Florida who was going to disperse everything I took, did that for them at Fasig-Tipton, and kept in touch with Jimmy until just a few years before he died.

SMITH: What about the Markeys, were you, did you have a--

BATES: Lovely people.

SMITH: Did you interact with them very much?

BATES: Oh they, they, they included the farm people in the things they 00:41:00did, often, and, uh, for instance a cookout or something like that, they'd have us over. Melvin and his wife and, and my wife and me. And, uh, they were just like home folks, just like you are sitting here. They wanted to come out and look at horses occasionally and so we'd get the lawn chairs out in a half circle and the boys would bring the mares out one at the time, or the yearlings out, one at a time. And they'd comment. Melvin would comment on 'em for the Markeys. And then when they, or it was all done, we'd sit and talk just like we hadn't seen each other for weeks. They were beautiful people.

SMITH: Now did they offer their input into the, the breeding and, uh, 00:42:00you know, the mating selections or--

BATES: She had, Ms. Markey had her ideas about breeding and never could, of course, she had been in it long enough and she's very intelligent. But she asked Melvin to mate most of the mares, chose the sires for most of the mares. She did, she did maybe a third of them. But, uh--

SMITH: Someone else who was there then, uh, I've read a lot about Margaret Glass?

BATES: Margaret was wonderful. She, uh, she held that farm together when Mr. Eblehardt after he was struck by lightning and while he was back and tried to see if he could do it, Margaret was a strong, strong person, and she held that farm together. Uh, highly intelligent, and 00:43:00never missed a lick and never forgot anything. Uh, then, after Melvin came, she was invaluable help to him in reviewing things of the past that, and bring him up to date and was a great help to him. I can't say enough for Margaret.

SMITH: Um-hm. Um-hm, I, I, everything I've read--

BATES: Oh yeah.

SMITH: --sounds like she was extraordinary. Now, you had your children at that point?

BATES: My children.

SMITH: Yeah, tell me about your children.

BATES: Yeah, on, on your right there is my daughter on--

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: --whose name is Eve, Greathouse now. She married Stephen Greathouse in, in Scott County.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: And my son is Ted Bates Jr., who is with Hilliard Lyons here 00:44:00in town.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: So I'm blessed there to have them close by.

SMITH: So they were born, uh, when were they born?

BATES: Eve was born in '54 and Teddy was born in '57.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: He, Te-, Teddy was just fifty-one the other day.

SMITH: So they're--

BATES: He was, he was gone, he w-, he went, he didn't want to go to the University of Kentucky because he was raised right in the shadows of it, so he went to Vanderbilt and graduated, then he went to work in the First Atlanta Bank the next day after he graduated, and, uh, worked there two years, and soon saw that he needed more education. So he went to Northwestern, uh, Kellogg School grad-, graduate school.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: And he, and Morgan Stanley, one of the investment firms, 00:45:00recruited him out of there and he went to Cali-, San Francisco for thirteen years. And then, as almost everybody who's been raised in the Bluegrass, comes to realize he got homesick and decided he better come on back home. So he resigned and came back here and went to work for another company.

SMITH: Now, did he have any interest in horses?

BATES: Oh yeah, yeah, he's got, he's got some mares.

SMITH: Oh, okay.

BATES: Yeah, he keeps them here.

SMITH: So they spent--

BATES: He races, uh, has had a very good horse called Peter the Great, Peter the Rock, uh--

SMITH: Peter the Rock?

BATES: Peter the Rock who he's just retired. Uh, so he, he has a definite interest in horses.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: My daughter never did, she never did have a she--except for riding ponies and things on the farm at Calumet when we were there. 00:46:00Mr., Mr. Ben Jones had an old pony called Tennessee and when he was away he kept him right in the paddock right beside my house. So when they'd come home from school, they'd go out and visit with Tennessee, crawl all over him, of course he didn't care, get to ride him and, and, uh, just at, really were his friend.

SMITH: So they enjoyed living at Calumet?

BATES: They did. We still think about that more or less as a home place. (laughs)

SMITH: Huh. Hmm. Well, um, we talked about some of the horses that you had out there but now, uh, Calumet was still pretty s-, very successful at this point in time, right?

BATES: Oh yeah--

SMITH: '58 to '63.

BATES: Yeah.

SMITH: Did you ever have any problems with the breeding program? Did you ever have any medical issues or, uh, I mean we've had so many things 00:47:00over the years, I've, you know, I've interviewed Ed Fallon so I know there had been some--

BATES: Yeah.

SMITH: --some not so great times.

BATES: Well they, none that were major. Every year we had little minor things that happened, like viruses they'd go through and, and, uh, those, those things that couldn't be treated. We never had any devastation of anything. We always, uh, of course kept things as clean as you can keep 'em and, uh, we never had any medical question. Those were the days, when Calumet was in its heyday, it's sad that Mr. Jones could go into almost any stall and pull out a stakes winner. He would, they were that solid. They split the stable they were so 00:48:00strong. One, one half of the stable stayed in Chicago, and the other one went to California. Jimmy took one to California, Mr. Jones stayed up at Chicago. But they had good, there were some good fillies, Real Delight, and Twilight Tear and Tullie and, uh, several of those mares. And then the, the, this, the sires we stood were, were some of the--Mark-Ye-Well was a solid kind of a horse, stakes horse.

SMITH: What is the name again?

BATES: Mark-Ye-Well.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: And, uh, so then when we got there, those fillies were through racing and back to the farm, and they were the core, core of the broodmares--

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: -- at Calumet.

SMITH: Now Calumet just bred their own, right? They, I mean--

BATES: They--

SMITH: -- the stallions obviously, but--

BATES: No, they, they were open to anyone.

SMITH: Oh, okay.

BATES: Yeah, they, they stood for a price and they, and even Miss Markey bred out of Calumet some. She'd breed to sh-, to Raise A Native, and Mahmoud, and, uh, Claiborne, uh, Calumet and Claiborne brought a horse over from France called Blenheim II and he stood at, at Claiborne but she bred to him, of course, every year, and she bred to Sir Gallahad and, uh, Hill Prince and all the major sires of the, of those days.

SMITH: Okay. Hmm.

BATES: But she, but those, those, the sires were commercial. I mean you could buy a ----------(??).

SMITH: Yeah.

BATES: If you had a, a, a mare that would suit, you couldn't bring something down on the creek out there.

SMITH: So, did Mr. Cinnamon make those decisions as to--

BATES: Yeah.

SMITH: -- what mare is suited?

BATES: He did, he'd review the mares.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: And make a recommendation.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: Yeah.

SMITH: So, um, you said you learned the business, or learned horses with Mr. Cinnamon.

BATES: I did.

SMITH: What, what did you learn, I mean, what did you--did you learn to look for, I mean, obviously you're with Fasig-Tipton you're expected--

BATES: That be giving you fifty years of experience in--(laughs)--two minutes. I can't do that.

SMITH: (both laugh) Can't do that.

BATES: I'll just say this. He was thorough [telephone rings] and he expected me to be thorough.

SMITH: Um-hm.

[Pause in recording.]

BATES: Okay.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: But, uh, I wouldn't know at what point to start.

SMITH: Too much, too much that you learned from him? Uh, there's a couple 00:51:00of other things, uh, about Calumet. You'd mentioned the visitors.

BATES: Um-hm.

SMITH: Now, um, people came whenever they wanted to? Is that not a problem?

BATES: They came, they drove in that gate any time they wanted, and it was tumultuous in the su-, in the suumer, it was hard for us to get around from barn to barn to do our work there were so many people, and they'd park anywhere and get out of the car and just leave it and go to the fences and all and, uh, finally it got so over powering that we had to limit it. At, it, I mean you could, Ms. Markey still wanted you to see the farm, but you'd have to call and make an appointment and come at a certain time, and, and do it that way. All just they came all the 00:52:00time and, and of course, we found things disappearing, like stallion halters used to hung on the front of their stalls you know, there, those would disappear and halters off wheelings and things like that. People get the souvenir. But not much of that, now, I shouldn't even mention that.

SMITH: Well.

BATES: But anyway, uh, the, the traffic was, was awf-, in the summer was great.

SMITH: Um-hm. The, um, now what about the help? What kind of--how would you describe the, the help--workforce at Calumet when you were there?

BATES: Well, those fellows, there wasn't much turnover at Calumet. They s-, they sifted through help, until they got solid good horsemen. And 00:53:00then they guaranteed 'em the job the year round, no matter how busy or not busy they were, and they paid 'em enough to live, live comfortably and most of them were just loyal as they could be.

SMITH: At that time, were they mostly African-American?

BATES: They'd begun to phase out.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: Uh, when I went to work at, at, uh, Coldstream, I referred to that when I got out of the college, almost all were African-American. Uh, and they kind, they kind of threw me in the, in the pot to work, they couldn't, Melvin couldn't be with me a lot so, I, I was working 00:54:00along with mostly African-Americans, and being green and new at the job, you know, I'd start to do something, and they'd laugh and they, and then they'd say, "Yeah Ted, let me show you how to do that." So-- (laughs)--they became teachers too. So, I, and I s-, I still have so-, uh, grandsons of people I knew out there still come by to see me.

SMITH: My gosh.

BATES: That was old, old black, African-Americans. They were good, they were all right.

SMITH: Um-hm. And that, but that started to change by the sixties.

BATES: Yeah, it changed I guess, I guess, the, like when their grandchildren came along or they, even their children, it was begun to be thought of as a, a lesser job, for some reason. And yet, they were 00:55:00the best in, in, in the business. Those, those African-Americans were good horsemen, they never--

SMITH: I've heard that.

BATES: --they lived like a horse. I mean they, they knew what a horse was thinking.

SMITH: Yeah.

BATES: And they were so, and they talked to 'em and they, uh, the horses loved 'em. And why they, and they could have gone on, I know, their sons and grandsons were exposed to it, but they never accepted it. It may have been, it may have been the discipline of the job. Every day--

SMITH: It's hard work.

BATES: --and hard work, it, that, that maybe that's what part of what turned them off.

SMITH: Um-hm. So--

BATES: But seldom now do, you, you don't see many today.

SMITH: So, who was working the farm then? As white people, women, Hispanic?

BATES: It begun to, uh, American white people begun to work into it.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: But then, with the entitlement programs--(sighs)--the, even the young people saw their parents taking the entitlement, you know, pay not, uh, uh, monthly entitlement. And they learned not to work, and now it's difficult to find a, a white boy who want to be again today go, uh, discipline, and, uh, and the work, uh, they'll, they'll try a while, but a few, and a few are successful, as you have seen. So-, foremen on some farms now are boys that have come along and worked 00:57:00their way up.

SMITH: Yeah.

BATES: But there have been more fall by the wayside. Now is the are Irish are coming in, have come in, and good horsemen, and astute and not lazy, and they're assuming some of the administrative jobs on the, on the horse farms. And, and now the Mexicans, within that immigration are coming in and doing the things that the African-Americans did when I came along, we had the grooms, and the, and the care-takers. So com-, complex ----------(??) it's changed quite a bit.

SMITH: You still think the way to get in the business is the way you did, from the ground up?

BATES: Now you have the advantage of some good--the University of Kentucky has ins-, instituted an equine management program, and I think 00:58:00it'll be very helpful. They'll, uh, they have good people working at that and they'll give a pretty good base at least you'll have heard of what before, what you want, want to do. I still think, uh, I still think on the job grassroots training helps anybody understand a little better, what it is you're involved with.

SMITH: Um-hm. Um-hm. So, um, you left Calumet and went to Foxtail Farm, is that right?

BATES: Foxtail, yeah.

SMITH: Okay, and you were for seven years.

BATES: Yeah.

SMITH: Now what was that job like?

BATES: Oh it was just a, a, a, the owner was a very nice man. A lot, his friends owned horses, sent, they sent, it was a boarding farm they sent their horses to. [horse whinnying] Uh, nothing very, uh, 00:59:00remarkable happened there, it, nice job, but, uh, made some good friends, have some good stories from the night watchmen and all those old Jessamine County farmers. But, uh, and, and, by now I was excited to, to go f-, with Calumet because that was a little, something different and travel more, and, uh, with them I took some horses, made two or three, well more than that, trips to Japan, to take horses.

SMITH: Now was that with Calumet or Foxtail.

BATES: Fox-, no with F-, Fasig-Tipton.

SMITH: Fasig-Tipton, okay.

BATES: After I left Foxtail. And went to Newmarket and traveled a good deal more and then traveled and around eastern United States more 01:00:00looking at horses for them too.

SMITH: Now, let's go back again to why you went to, to Fasig-Tipton, and you explained that they were wanting to open up here in Kentucky.

BATES: They wanted to come back here; they had been here in the thirties, and, uh--

SMITH: Now, how did you get selected to be the general manager? Did you--

BATES: Uh, well, I don't know, I, I knew, I knew the chairman of the board, Humphrey Finney and I knew his son John, and, um, I guess, I don't know, they just, they, they just asked me to do it. I'd known 'em from taking horses to Saratoga--

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: -- to sell.

SMITH: So you've, were pretty comfortable with the sales process by that time?

BATES: Yeah, yeah, I was, I was, uh.

SMITH: Did you like that part of the job? The sales?

BATES: I did, for seven years--(Smith laughs)--and then I got tired of 01:01:00going to sales.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: And, uh, I just wanted to have one unit, the farm and that will be mine to look after and, and, uh--

SMITH: What exactly, how would you describe your responsibilities as general manager, what, what was your job description?

BATES: Of Fasig-Tipton?

SMITH: Um-hm.

BATES: Uh, a lot of it was, was grading the horses, pedigrees and the individual for the sales. We had some sales that were selected, and, and, and that was, that was part of my job, as well as, uh, John did this, did that too and, uh, a good man named Larry Hanser Jr. (??) was, uh, John's assistant. A lot of it was that, the other was, uh, 01:02:00advertising our sales, trying to pick up new, new consigners, visiting people in the, in the community that we thought were su-, susceptible to changing sales companies.

SMITH: From Keeneland to--

BATES: Um-hm. The, so that, that was a major thing in the selection and so on, and, and, uh, accu-, accumulating horses for sale or another.

SMITH: Um-hm. So having a good eye for a horse and understanding pedigree was a pretty important part of your job.

BATES: Yeah.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: Yeah.

SMITH: Um, now you were there, you said seven years at Fasig--

BATES: I was there seven years, yeah.

SMITH: At Fasig-Tipton, okay. And you said that's got you traveling out to--explain why you would go to Japan.

BATES: Well I'd go to, uh, I'd go to Saratoga every year, and help, help with that sale up there, and I would go to, uh, Florida every winter and help with the two-year-old sale in February [horse whinnying] down there. Then, after everybody left, all of Fasig-Tipton people left Florida, there were things that happened. People with, uh, complaints, or adjustments, or whatever, after that, so they left me down there for three weeks after they left to take care of those things.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: So, that was kind of nice, 'cause some days there weren't anything, wasn't anything to do. (both laugh) And we just enjoyed being in Florida.

SMITH: So this time, uh, it seem--

BATES: Then I went, then, I, I went to Japan. We sold a stud horse to Japan. His name was Father's Image, bought--the Japanese came here and contacted us about a stud, buying a stud horse. And we showed 'em a number of stud horses, but they had their, the one that took their eye was a horse called Father's Image, who stood at Gainesway when Gainesway was next door to Keeneland. Uh, where John Gaines leased that, that property. So, they bought Father's Image. Then they wanted somebody to come over at the presentation, when they presented him to the Japanese breeder. Well, Mr. Finney, Mr. Humphrey Finney didn't 01:05:00want a go. He was getting older, and John Finney couldn't go. So they asked me to go, and I, so I flew over for that and they, uh, I had my speech, what I wanted to say about the pedigree of the horse and anything else about him, his race records and so on. And then I had an in-, an interpreter who interpreted what I said. And then when I got through, the interpreter said, "You, you must sing a song." I said, "What do you say?" He said, "You, it's tradition. Everyone sings a song." I said, "If I had known that, I wouldn't have come." He said, "You must sing a song." The only song I could think of right of was "On, On, U of K." So I s-, --(both laugh)--I sung "On, On, U of K" just 01:06:00as if we were in the stands at Co-, at the stadium, and they applauded like I'd was Bing Crosby.

SMITH: Oh my. (laughs)

BATES: All the breeders in this Quonset hut. They couldn't have known what I was saying.

SMITH: Oh my. (laughs)

BATES: So that was one funny thing that happened.

SMITH: Ah, I would think so.

BATES: But then they took me on a tour, four of them, who, who, who were involved in the horses, s-, buying horses over here, took me on a tour of Japan for a week and I saw it through the Japanese eyes. We tour--we toured from the southernmost to the northernmost and then over into the island of Hokkaido which is an island just north of the main island and it's where most of the horse farms are, because there's land there, open land, on an island or Tokyo is, is crowded up, there's no, 01:07:00no farms, really farms, there were one or two, I think, but not, but so most of the Japanese farms are on the island of Hokkaido. So I was there like in January, and it was cold up there, but we toured farms that had horses on, every kind of farm. Some had wire fences, some had plank fences, some good and some bad, but they were just, just getting going in this industry.

SMITH: Was that in the seventies?

BATES: That was in the--yeah that was in the, oh let's see, yeah that was in the seventies, '72 or three.

SMITH: Hmm.

BATES: But that tour I took of Japan, you couldn't buy that, because, uh, we went into shrines and all those things, and they, they would explain, they spoke good English, and they, they would explain about 01:08:00it. It was a, it was an education.

SMITH: Did your wife go with you?

BATES: No.

SMITH: Just--

BATES: She wouldn't fly over water. (Smith laughs) She missed a lot of good trips.

SMITH: Aw. Huh.

BATES: So then I'd go to Newmarket for those sales, o-, over in England also, so, I saw some of the world.

SMITH: Yeah, yeah, you did. Um, before I forget, Ed said to ask you about Genuine, Genuine Risk.

BATES: Genuine Risk came to Fasig-Tipton after I left.

SMITH: Oh, okay.

BATES: So, I was not involved with her.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: I--

SMITH: Now the entire time you were there, you were b-, were you primarily the person responsible for the inspections?

BATES: No, there were three of us.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: It was John Finney who is the son of Mr. Humphrey Finney, Larry 01:09:00Hanser Jr., whose son lives in Lexington now, incidentally, in the blood stock agency--

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: --and me. If we had a horse in a way out post, where maybe only one or two of one even, then we would, between us we'd probably know somebody in that area that we, whose horsemanship we respected, and we would call that person to look at that certain horse and give us a report on it.

SMITH: Did you ever use veterinarians?

BATES: Yeah.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: Yeah, sure, quite a bit.

SMITH: Okay, I, I, still learning all that about this but I know that Davidson used to do a lot of that for Keeneland.

BATES: Right.

SMITH: And I didn't think that was the way it was done anymore, that you didn't use a vet as exclusively as, as he was used.

BATES: Uh, Dr. Davidson, we, we would call him to come to Saratoga just to take care of any veterinary situation that might arise. He was--

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: --just a great person. He wa-, he was very noble. He played fair, no matter who he was working for. He's a great man. So are the, all three of those, and, and now too, they got good people, but I knew Dr. Hagyard, Dr. Charles Hagyard when he was doing farm-work, calling on the farms every day and doing, doing that work. I knew Dr. McGee, who came, then came and he, we had him at Calumet and then I knew Dr. Davidson quite a bit. So they're, no wonder their firm's good--

SMITH: Yeah.

BATES: --because they were good.

SMITH: I interviewed Dr. McGee, I, in--

BATES: Dr. McGee?

SMITH: Yeah.

BATES: Yeah.

SMITH: I enjoyed that, gr-, and I've heard a lot of stories about Mr. 01:11:00Hagyard and not that much about Davidson yet though but--

BATES: Well, he was a quieter man, but, but I used to hunt with him a lot--

SMITH: Oh.

BATES: --and got know him. He is a great shotgun shot.

SMITH: Oh, okay. (laughs)

BATES: Oh yeah.

SMITH: Now, he was primarily a surgeon, is that c--

BATES: He was.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: Yeah, he was mo-, mostly a surgeon.

SMITH: So, is that why he would be involved more in the, um, sales checking--

BATES: Yeah.

SMITH: -- for soundness or?

BATES: Yeah. He knew the nomenclature of a horse.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: So.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: Not that the others didn't, but he actually did surgery.

SMITH: Yeah, yeah. So, um, so you left Fasig-Tipton and what was it, I think seventy, no--

BATES: Oh, let's see, '78.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: Let's see. I'm trying to think.

SMITH: That'd be about 1980, maybe.

BATES: I may, it may have been.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: I left, I left Fasig-Tipton in, in, uh, '78, and then I went to work for, uh, as I told you, Arthur for a few months, and then, uh, W-, Wimbledon for four years until about '84.

SMITH: Um, as the farm manager.

BATES: As the farm manager.

SMITH: Now, during this time, I know I've got down here that you were, um, president of the Farm Managers' Club in 1961? That was when you would have been at Calumet?

BATES: Yeah.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: Yeah.

SMITH: Were you active in that organization, where I mean, were you--

BATES: I was active from the very start. I was treas-, secretary, treasurer for a number of years and then president.

SMITH: Um-hm. Was--

BATES: Then later that, in, in '78, let's see, then in '78 I was president of the Thoroughbred Club of America.

SMITH: Oh, okay.

BATES: That's the same year I was president of the University of Kentucky National Alumni Association--(laughs)--both the same year.

SMITH: Oh, okay, okay, busy year. Was the Farm Managers' Club, um, do you think that's an important organization--

BATES: I do.

SMITH: --for the industry?

BATES: I do. It's more important now than it was then.

SMITH: Why?

BATES: They have timely speakers [telephone rings]. They, uh, excuse me.

SMITH: It's okay.

[Pause in recording.]

BATES: Um, what was I saying?

SMITH: Uh, we were talking about, um, the Farm Managers' Club?

BATES: Oh yeah, today they have--we, when we met, maybe were thirty of us--

SMITH: Oh.

BATES: (laughs) --some, some nights, and, uh, we would have a program some nights and some nights we wouldn't, just a get together and kind of compare notes. But now they really serve a purpose in helping 01:14:00organizations that need help in, uh, raising money for, uh, diabetes, cancer, uh, riding for the handicapped, are you aware of that yet?

SMITH: Um-hm. Um-hm.

BATES: --and, uh, they do, and they do so much good now, and it's been opened to where they enter-, they entertain associate members, so people who want to be associated with the club and with farm managers have joined--

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: And they add some to it, but they can't sell their wares there, of course. But they can get to know farm managers and, and then go from there.

SMITH: Um-hm. I, I went--

BATES: That's a big club now.

SMITH: I went to one of their meetings to tell them about the project and, and it was a large group of people--

BATES: Yeah.

SMITH: --and, you know, I was thinking it would be a group of farm managers and it really--

BATES: Yeah.

SMITH: -- wasn't.

BATES: Um-hm.

SMITH: But it was a great program and--

BATES: Yeah.

SMITH: --I could see it was great way to, to learn and to network, you know, among the farms.

BATES: It is. It is.

SMITH: And you were also the Farm Manager of the Year in 1993?

BATES: I guess that's what year it was, I forgot when it was.

SMITH: Yeah, that's nineteen, oh, I've got it down as 1993.

BATES: Okay.

SMITH: That's what they have on the Web site--

BATES: Yeah.

SMITH: So, uh--

BATES: I'd forgotten that.

SMITH: Yeah, they, uh, um, um, how do they select that? Is that just something that's--

BATES: There's a committee--

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: --that goes over those that have been suggested or nominated, and, uh, it's the wisdom of the committee that decides who will be this year, and those nominees are held over and added to, and then the next 01:16:00year they consider that group.

SMITH: Well, just looking at the list, was like well, there's my interview list--(both laugh)-- you know, of, of people I should talk to.

BATES: Oh yeah.

SMITH: Uh, a lot of, a lot of names that I recognized and, uh--

BATES: Yeah.

SMITH: --Um, now you said that you were also the Thoroughbred Club of America?

BATES: Um-hm.

SMITH: You were president of that organization as well?

BATES: Yeah, in '78.

SMITH: Okay. Did that take a lot of time to be involved as--

BATES: Not particularly. We had a good, uh, lady secretary, she did, took care of the office work. We--it, and, and it was enjoyable. I enjoyed it. We were then, uh, meeting in the Springs Motel--

SMITH: Ah, yeah.

BATES: --down, downstairs in the Springs Motel.

SMITH: Yeah, yeah, hmm. The, um, the other group you've stayed involved 01:17:00with over the years is UK. Uh, you said you were head of their alumni?

BATES: I was.

SMITH: And that was in the seventies?

BATES: In 1978.

SMITH: Okay, okay, and then in, uh, I'm not sure what year it was, you were actually appointed to the--

BATES: I was, uh--

SMITH: --board of--

BATES: --I was appointed a trustee in '87.

SMITH: Oh, okay.

BATES: And, uh, served that time four years, that's when, that was the terms then, that was a term then. And then, I was reappointed in 1994 to a six-year term.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: So I, all in all, I, Go-, Governor Jones appointed me to that second, Martha Layne Collins appointed me the first time.

SMITH: Okay. So what was that like?

BATES: Both good people.

SMITH: Yeah.

BATES: (laughs) Have you'd ever, are you going to interview Martha Layne?

SMITH: We've been trying to interview Martha Layne, and we're going to get to her at some point. She is, she doesn't seem ready to sit down and, and do the interviews yet.

BATES: Okay.

SMITH: But sh-, but I think she will.

BATES: Well, I'd, I seldom see her, if you do, tell her I sent my hello.

SMITH: I will do that.

BATES: I seldom see her. I saw her at a basketball game last winter- -well no, no, that didn't take a lot of time, and, and I'm telling you that, that goes on and on and on because the people are, they are so solid in their feeling for, and activities for, and support of the University of Kentucky. There is nobody along for the ride, everybody is willing to work, get new members, get programs out to 'em, help 'em, help young people, uh, decide, seniors in college, and not try to direct 01:19:00them, just get information to 'em. That's a wonderful organization.

SMITH: Was there a particular aspect of the university that you were most interested in--

BATES: Well--

SMITH: --as a board member?

BATES: At, of course agriculture always. But I have begun to realize what, how important the research was. So my years on the board, I concentrated on research. I wanted to do, I wanted to do several things. When Coldstream Farm, was where I went to work first, my first job, when it was declared a research park campus, every commercial 01:20:00person in town would have given an arm and a leg to get, to build out there, and I knew it'd be an influx. So, m-, I, my, my purpose was to protect Coldstream as long as I could. And sure enough they did, and, uh, the retired faculty came to us and wanted us to build on four-hundred ac-, four-hundred some odd plus acres, that's all we had for research, a retirement home and an assisted living home for retired faculty. And I opposed that when I was on the board and got it take-, and got it taken off. Then after I was off the board, they came back 01:21:00and tried again. And we beat it that time, and then, that same, those retired people wanted to go out and take over Spindletop. Do you remember that harangue?

SMITH: A little bit. Little bit.

BATES: They wanted to build around Spindletop and have Spindletop as a club for what it is now, as well as retired faculty, people in sitting in wheelchairs and tying their chairs and walking with walkers, which would have ruined it for alumni. So, thankfully, they couldn't get water to that, the water they needed, so, so I, that, they were things that I, that were important to me then. And of course the more 01:22:00research that we attracted more, more grants we attract-- we attracted. So that was one of my main concerns.

SMITH: What about the Gluck Center? Would you have any involvement with that, or is that--

BATES: I did at the beginning, yeah, I did, I did.

SMITH: A lot of the farm managers that I've talked with or, um, talk a lot about how important that or what-, whatever the center was called before it became the Gluck Center, how important that was to the farms.

BATES: Veterinary science department.

SMITH: Right, right. Bryan, Jack Bryan

BATES: Jack Bryans.

SMITH: Um-hm. Was that your exp--

BATES: Dr. Dimock.

SMITH: Yeah.

BATES: It worked. Uh, after that, (pause) it became, the board became more social than productive.

SMITH: Oh.

BATES: And it didn't accomplish much since the span of five or seven years. But then, things begun to change, (pause) nationally and internationally. I think we lost some stature ----------(??).

SMITH: About what time period are you talking about?

BATES: Well, I'm talking about the, uh, (pause) nineties--

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: --and the early two thousand. I think that's changed now. Dr. Walter Zent who is a veterinarian with Hagyard's chairman of the board.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: And he realizes the tie that Gluck Center should have with every farm. So they know what's going on, diseases or maladies, when and, 01:24:00when they first appear. Then you get to work to try to find the way to negate them. So that's going to change.

SMITH: Woops.

BATES: Oh. I'm sorry.

SMITH: No, it's okay.

BATES: So, they're going to, they got a new director, Dr. Peter Tim-, are we all right?

SMITH: Yeah.

BATES: Dr. Peter Timoney was excellent, yeah, at first, and when the EVA came, he handled it well, and we were able to stifle that right as, without it going any further.

SMITH: The EVA?

BATES: EVA.

SMITH: Equin--

BATES: That was Equine Virus Abortion, I guess it was, EVA. Uh, but then 01:25:00other things occurred and it got so it just was kind of marking time.

SMITH: Oh.

BATES: But they, they have a new director now.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: And I, I think it will be more, uh, visible, and more aggressive, and, uh, I'm told that this man does have those attributes.

SMITH: Okay, okay, hmm.

BATES: He'll start in June, I think.

SMITH: What's his name?

BATES: I don't know.

SMITH: Do you know, remember?

BATES: I've forgotten what it was. Walter just told me that he'd been hired though.

SMITH: Walter is on my list to be interviewed as well, Walter Zent so.

BATES: Yeah, have you done it?

SMITH: Not yet, not yet.

BATES: You'll love it.

SMITH: Got, got a lot people to, to--

BATES: Oh you'll love it.

SMITH: --to interview. Oh good, good.

BATES: He is very, uh, anything he does, he does well. He was the top, he is the top veterinarian internation-, goes to international clinics and he's on panels and called for, uh, for difficult situations in other parts of the world, and, uh, just got a lot of good common sense, one of my favorite people.

SMITH: Hmm. Did you use him as a vet?

BATES: No, I've used his firm.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: He had so many farms, that he took care of us himself, he didn't have time-- (laughs)--to add another one. (Smith laughs) But I use his firm, of course--

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: --and we are good friends.

SMITH: When you look back in all of your, um, years at various farms that--let's see, you managed Wimbledon Farm? How long were you there?

BATES: Four years.

SMITH: That's Hilary Boone, right?

BATES: That's Hilary Boone.

SMITH: Okay. Is that a pretty big operation?

BATES: It's a big operation.

SMITH: Okay. I'm not as familiar with that one. Um, and, uh, let's see after that you worked with Paul Miller and Kermit Blackburn, do I have that right?

BATES: Kermit, Paul Miller--

SMITH: For a while.

BATES: -- and Kermit Blackburn. Uh, Paul owned the Ford Company and Kermit was his main man. Kermit kept it going.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: And they wanted to get in the horse business.

SMITH: Okay now, that would have been in the nineties? No, it's eighties.

BATES: Let's see what year that was. That would be--that'd be '80, '88 or '89.

SMITH: Now wasn't that a time when there was pretty much and down turn in the industry?

BATES: Yeah, yeah, it was an o-, overproduction of horses, and, uh, and the yearling prices plummeted for two years. They were down for 01:28:00two years, and, uh, instead of breeding every equine that was female, people stopped that and, uh, and di-, became more balanced after that until now, we've done the same thing again.

SMITH: You think so.

BATES: There is an overproduction right now.

SMITH: Yeah, yeah, hmm. Well, why did they want to get into it at that time, if, uh, if things were not so good?

BATES: Well, they, they were getting out then.

JAMIE: Hi Mr. Bates.

BATES: Jamie. Come in. Can you stop?

SMITH: I can.

JAMIE: I apologize.

[Pause in recording.]

SMITH: Okay, I know you're busy, but, I'll try not to take up too much of your time, but you--

BATES: It's all right.

SMITH: --you know, you've got a lot of stories. Um, okay, so we were asking about in the late-eighties when you got involved with these 01:29:00individuals who were trying to get started, how much of an impact had it been on, on your business? Of course, you were with Mr. Boone, uh, at that time, um, to, uh, but the downturn in the industry. Did that affect you very much?

BATES: It affected our year-, our yearling prices, yeah.

SMITH: Okay, okay.

BATES: Then, in, in some insignificant way, the price of s-, stud fees, what stallions stood for, moneywise.

SMITH: Okay, okay.

BATES: They came down some, but not a lot.

SMITH: Um-hm. Now, um, not when you were with Fasig-Tipton but when you've been selling horses for yourself, or for other people.

BATES: Right, yeah.

SMITH: What's the most you've ever gotten?

BATES: We sold, we sold a colt by Silver Deputy out of a mare called 01:30:00Teddy Bear Tears, by Mt. Livermore for five-hundred and fifty thousand dollars.

SMITH: Oh.

BATES: And the owner was looking for like two-hundred thousand.

SMITH: Oh, that was a good day. (Bates laughs)

BATES: He still, he still talks about it.

SMITH: (laughs) When was that?

BATES: Huh, the who?

SMITH: When?

BATES: Oh, that was in--

SMITH: Just roughly.

BATES: --about '99 something like that.

SMITH: Okay, and who, who was it that you sold it to?

BATES: The man, the man's name is Greatfellow and then Ed, Ed Fortino.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: He's a-- lives in Chicago and he's kept horses with me for a number of years. Every once in a while, he'll come up with a, I'll ask him for giving me a Derby box and he'll do that, but--

SMITH: Ah.

BATES: He is just a guy that you like to be around.

SMITH: Hmm. Hmm. Does he have a lot of horses, does he--

BATES: He's got like five or six mares--

SMITH: Oh, okay.

BATES: --but races, doesn't sell.

SMITH: Ah.

BATES: He sold that time--

SMITH: Yeah.

BATES: --he sold that one 'cause the Silver Deputies then were in demand--

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: -- and he had one and he figured he'd try to sell it if he did, okay, if he didn't he'd race it, so. That's--

SMITH: Where did you sell it?

BATES: We sold that horse at Keeneland.

SMITH: Oh, okay.

BATES: Yeah.

SMITH: Okay. Do, do you do a lot with Keeneland?

BATES: I do, I do some at Keeneland.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: When the horse fits the sale.

SMITH: Okay. I ne-, I did mean to ask you back when you were Fasig-- starting Fasig-Tipton here, did you have a lot of problems or opposition because of Keeneland?

BATES: Yeah.

SMITH: But it, was it anything that--

BATES: It just made it unpleasant. Um, I told you we left the training 01:32:00center in '74. Um, and we rented two barns from Henry Alexander on Russell Cave Pike; that was for the July yearling sale. We then, to have our fall broodmare mix sale, we didn't have any place. So we got, we talked, I didn't, but Mr. Finney did, talked to the people at the Red Mile about using that carriage house? You know that round house out there, and putting up tents and, and having a sale there. And they said okay for a fall sale. Well, some of the directors of Keeneland and some of the directors of the Red Mile were friends. So after they 01:33:00contacted them, they said we couldn't have it.

SMITH: Oh. Okay.

BATES: So there we were we'd, we'd accepting horses to sell and no place to sell them. So I told you I referred to Gainesway when--

SMITH: Right.

BATES: --it was next to Keeneland. After John Gaines sold that, it was bought by a lady, a French lady named Countess Batthyany. She was a friend of a, of a, uh, director of Fasig-Tipton, Tyson Gilpin.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: Lived in Virginia. So Tyson asked Countess Batthyany if we could have a sale on that farm, and she said we could. So then we had to put 01:34:00up tents, first it had to go before the zoning board. Our, our, our attorney was Tommy Bell, uh, and it had to go before the zoning board. Well, Keeneland had their attorney to come and they gave all these reasons why it would be, it would not be feasible to have a sale right there next to them.

SMITH: Um-hm, yeah.

BATES: Their attorney, their attorney talked forty-five minutes before the zoning board. Well, as luck would have it, Tommy Bell had to be out of town the day we appeared. So it wasn't anything left to do but for me to plead our case, which I did, and low and behold, they gave us the all, the okay to do it. But, that's just part of the, of the 01:35:00infighting that went on, when we were trying to get established here. Count-, Countess Batthyany didn't have to ask anybody, she could have--

SMITH: That's right.

BATES: --her farm.

SMITH: Do you know how to spell her name?

BATES: I do not.

SMITH: That's okay, I can look that up.

BATES: I'm sorry. I know where I can find out.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: I'll get it and call you.

SMITH: Can--the transcriptionist will have fits with me. (laughs)

BATES: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SMITH: Um.

BATES: Uh, I think I know but I better be sure I'm right.

SMITH: That's okay, that's okay. So did that continue through, most of the--

BATES: It did--

SMITH: --most of the time you were there?

BATES: --yeah, pretty much, yeah. Uh, uh, that was the most flagrant, that was, that was the closest they ever came--

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: -- to closing us out. If we hadn't had that sale, we'd have suffered in prestige and image but having that sale under all those circumstances, and, and it, we put up tents, all over-- (laughs)--that, I mean big tents with--

SMITH: Yeah.

BATES: -- fifty stalls in them, you know, and I had a great fellow helping me then, could work rings around anybody I ever saw. We got them shipped in here from Tex-, California, I guess, the tents, and the stalls.

SMITH: Oh, okay.

BATES: Put stalls up in the, in the tent. But that's the close, that's as close as they came.

SMITH: Who was the guy who helped you?

BATES: Oh, a fellow named Bob Kearns.

SMITH: Okay. Okay.

BATES: He is dead now, sadly, but, he was a big help, always.

SMITH: And one of the people I've interviewed is Walt Robertson, and--

BATES: What?

SMITH: Walt Robertson?

BATES: He's president now.

SMITH: Yeah, and I interviewed him--

BATES: Yeah.

SMITH: --and I know he started working out there, um, I think, you know, 01:37:00just working with the horses themselves back in, when Seattle Slew was sold in '75, so, uh, he's told me a few stories about those--

BATES: I'm sure he did.

SMITH: --early days as well.

BATES: Well, see he, Walt was at Keeneland, kind of a protege of Mr. Swinebroad and Mr. Swinebroad died and they brought in a new, uh, auction team, and we thought it was a good time to hire Walt, so I called Mr. Finney and he said, "It sure is, let's do it." So I hired him, hired Walt.

SMITH: Oh, okay.

BATES: Then, when I was at Fasig-Tipton, and he's been great, probably the best auctioneer in the business right now.

SMITH: Um-hm. What do you think it's meant to the industry to have Keeneland and Fasig-Tipton here, in Kentucky?

BATES: I don't--

SMITH: What has it meant to the industry? Has it been a positive--

BATES: Oh it's given--

SMITH: --to have both?

BATES: --given 'em, given 'em an, a alternative, everybody an alternative. And, uh, I better stop there.

SMITH: (laughs) Okay, okay, I understand. Now, uh, of course Fasig- Tipton has been in the news in the last few, few days.

BATES: Yeah.

SMITH: So what do you think of that?

BATES: I think it's wonderful.

SMITH: Do you? Okay.

BATES: I think it's wonderful, in that he has said he wanted to c-, continue with the, uh, uh, type of sales image that Fasig-Tipton has always had, attention to every person, every horse that every man has, has a horse, and, uh, quality care, and, uh, that's what they're going 01:39:00to do, that's what Fasig-Tipton speaks of.

SMITH: Okay. So you feel pretty confident they'll--

BATES: I, oh, I think it will.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: I think it will. And their, their, their their, uh, purpose is to attract more people to the industry.

SMITH: Yeah.

BATES: He wants them to do that.

SMITH: Yeah.

BATES: And their goal is to do it because they've got a lot of friends.

SMITH: Yeah.

BATES: And we have sales, not we, but they now, uh, have sales in Florida, and Saratoga, and Texas, and see a lot of people.

SMITH: Right, right.

BATES: Exposed to a lot of people. So, they have the opportunity.

SMITH: Hmm. Well I'm gonna, uh, take you back a little bit to your work as a farm manager, and, um, what were the most, the biggest challenges that you had as a farm manager, if you think back over all your career, I mean was, you know, all the farms you've worked at, and you've been 01:40:00here since, what, what did you say? Uh, '90, you've been here--

BATES: Here, twenty years.

SMITH: -- twenty years, so, a lot changes in the industry, a lot of changes in caring for horses, and--

BATES: The biggest challenge--

SMITH: What were some of the bigger challenges?

BATES: Well as meant, I think, the biggest challenge has been, although you're in charge, you're not actually taking care of the horses for yourself. The biggest challenge is to keep yourself close enough to the basic-, basics that you see every day that each horse is being cared for as he should be. There are all kinds of help and some 01:41:00mean well and, and make mistakes, some don't mean well and, and you, I, I think attention, attention to the horse, I'd say is the main thing. Being, being sure that, that, that, that the horse is getting everything he needs.

SMITH: Um-hm. Have you, um, who have been some of your clients over the years? You ever had any difficulty with any of your clients?

BATES: No, no. I've had, uh, a long, long way back I had one, had, I had six mares one time from the French that went to Ribot, Ribot stud at Darby Dan--

SMITH: Oh, okay.

BATES: --and he was a premium horse, and, uh, uh, that, that was an interesting time, we got five of the six in foal. We sent 'em back 01:42:00home. Uh, I've got a wonderful client from California, and, uh, has now, the Hills I enjoy and Fortino. I, uh, uh, I can't think right now of any personage, just a lot of good people.

SMITH: Hmm. Yeah, I know, I'm, I interviewed Ms. Chandler, she said she only liked working with friends, clients who were friends, 'cause she hated to make a phone call that something that might have happened to one of the horses.

BATES: I know it, yes, that's the toughest call to make.

SMITH: Is it? I imagine you've had to do that a few times?

BATES: Oh yeah. It's just terrible, but you got to do it, and, and maybe that's what I was saying in the first sentence. If you keep close to the core, close to the basics, you, some time, may be able 01:43:00to, to not have that happen. But, it does happen, uh, too and can't be helped sometimes.

SMITH: Yeah.

BATES: And those, they, those are the calls that you, rather take the loss yourself than call them, couldn't, the owner.

SMITH: Um-hm, Um-hm. Hmm. What, um, look out there baby, one other thing that, uh, Ed Bowen said I should ask you about, he said you were pretty knowledgeable when it came to issues of nutrition and caring for the horses. Is that something you've learned over the years? I know Henry White talked a lot about that too.

BATES: Well, I, now, I did have good nutrition class, classes in 01:44:00college, called Fees in Feeding. I still got the textbook, that big black book over there. It's still the text--almost over, see in that--

SMITH: Oh yeah, oh, okay.

BATES: And it was taught by a, a picturesque, uh, colorful man, and I, I think I got something out of it. But I've, I've tried to balance diets and amounts to fit horses. For instance, some farms, you may have trouble with, uh, feet and you will add some vitamin to the, to the f-, to the ration, or the quality of oats is important, uh, what are their- 01:45:00-I think there are no more ones, but twos and threes or whatever. Well, I, I, I've enjoyed nutrition and then, again, if you see a horse--

SMITH: Whoa, ----------- (??).

BATES: --you see ever-, if you see every horse every day, you, you know about his, his needs. I mean, if he is beginning to fa-, fall off a little bit, then you raise his feed. It's just like feeding anything else. But I've, I've really never studied it since the early days, uh, and I, right now I don't feed any supplements--

SMITH: Oh.

BATES: -- just, just the best feed I can buy and the best hay I can buy.

SMITH: What about medications, have you had to deal with those in--

BATES: I leave that to, uh, my law fi-, law, uh, vet firm.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: Yeah, they keep up with that. There are a lot of good veterinarians around Lexington.

SMITH: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

BATES: It--

SMITH: Got two of the best in the, the world, I understand with Hagyard and--

BATES: Why they are.

SMITH: Rood and Riddle.

BATES: They are.

SMITH: Yeah.

BATES: The best veterinarians in the world are here.

SMITH: Hmm. Now you've al-, always, had you ever raced horses?

BATES: Yeah, I, if I tried to sell a yearling and didn't get a, as much as I thought I should, then I would race it. I don't have anything right now, I just brought one home, retired him, but it'll happen again. (laughs)

SMITH: Did you have any, any, you want to mention, any favorites that you raced?

BATES: Oh I don't know, I, I've had some I had fun with. This filly over here, on the wall, I probably have enjoyed the most. Her name was Miss Landy, and one of the reasons I n-, think I like her so much, 01:47:00I boarded for a horse's, for a la-, lady named Landy Armstrong, and, uh, who lived in New Jersey, and, uh, she sent her mares here every year and left them most of the year, and just go back up there to foal and then come back. But, uh, she was a good client and, and a lot of fun. I had a mare for her called All the Vees. She was All the Vees got her name Landy, Landy's aunt took her to the races all the time. And her, her aunt's name was Virginia and so she picked her horses, she all--bet on anything that started with a vee. (Smith laughs) So she named that good filly that they had All, All the Vees. Well I'd admired All--she won the stakes, was a good race mare. So I had her 01:48:00and when Ms. Armstrong died I bought All the Vees from her estate and I have her here now. But this is a nice filly out of All the Vees--

SMITH: Oh, okay.

BATES: --so I was particularly attracted to her and for a name, I wanted to name her Landy--

SMITH: Yeah.

BATES: --for, for Landy Armstrong. Well there was a horse racing, uh, L-a-n-d-i--

SMITH: Oh.

BATES: --which was too much like Landy. So that's why I named her Miss Landy because of old, uh, African-American fellow that worked for her always called her Miss Landy.

SMITH: Yeah, oh, okay.

BATES: So, I named her that. So she won one, three, four and five, it was a lot of fun.

SMITH: Hmm. Now, do you, who trains them for you? Who do you have?

BATES: That fellow with the, at the rear of the horse there, Earl McDonald.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: He's since retired. Uh, the last ones I've had in training would have been with a fellow named Tom Burgen (??), over to the training 01:49:00center over here, nice Irish boy.

SMITH: Okay, okay. A lot of trainers out there, aren't there?

BATES: Oh it's, yeah. They, uh, that's all that stables over here.

SMITH: Oh, okay.

BATES: Because they got two tracks.

SMITH: Oh, okay.

BATES: And they, they need to work out, and, uh, Keeneland really doesn't want them out there, I understand--

SMITH: At the Thoroughbred Center?

BATES: --all that many, all that many year round.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: But this is made for trainers.

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: And Keeneland has bought it lately, you know--

SMITH: Yeah.

BATES: --back the last three years, I think, and they have upgraded it and done a good, it's more, it's more, uh, enjoyable now.

SMITH: Okay, okay. Well when you look back, um, I've kept you a long time here, although I can think of the, uh, I'm sure after I've listened to this I'll have a lot more questions--

BATES: Okay.

SMITH: --and you will probably think of lot more stories, so.

BATES: I will.

SMITH: We'll, we'll, maybe we will keep the communication open here for a while, but, um, what have you enjoyed the most about your career with 01:50:00horses? (pause) Crackers.

BATES: It'd be a tie--

SMITH: Okay.

BATES: --between seeing the horses every day, and the people involved in the industry. I've enjoyed 'em both.

SMITH: Who were some of the people that you've worked with that you have enjoyed?

BATES: Well, Bob Courtney, uh, Mack Miller, of course, Herb Stevens, Henry White, uh, Paul Thorpe, he is a veterinarian, uh, gee I, you 01:51:00know, you start naming you'll leave out somebody you--

SMITH: How was it you said you got to know Mack Miller?

BATES: Mack, in college.

SMITH: Oh, okay. He said he didn't go very long.

BATES: No, he didn't. I'll tell you a story about that. Mack was a year, in school a year before I came and he joined Phi Delta Theta fraternity. So then I came to school the next year, and I joined that same fraternity, and that year Mack started to school, but he quit right early, I mean that, soon after, I, it seemed like October or something like that. And he went to work at Calumet. So, I went, was in, I was in school of course and one day, he came in, he said, "Ted I can get you a job at Calumet." He said, "They need a, need another 01:52:00man out there," and he said, "I told them you are green, and, but they said that's okay." And I said, "Daggone Mack, I need, I think I need to get an education." He said, "Well, it's a chance to come to Calumet." I said, "I'll tell you tomorrow." That was a great temptation--

SMITH: I bet.

BATES: --for me to leave and do what I ultimately wanted to do and but I decided to stay and go through college and I told him, and, and, uh, I, I, I think I made the right decision.

SMITH: Yeah, yeah. Well, you ended up at Calumet anyway, for a while.

BATES: I ended up back there, and that was ironic, wasn't it?

SMITH: Yeah, and he wasn't there very long, as I recall.

BATES: No, he graduated from that. He went on, uh, and started training in a year or two after that.

SMITH: Yeah, yeah.

BATES: And from the time he started, he was successful, with whatever class he was working with, class of horse, he was successful. But that was, that, so he is one I enjoy, uh, uh, oh I, so many of the veterinarians, like, I like Ed Fallon, and Walter Zent, McGee, Dr. Hagyard are, uh, uh, I could just go on and on.

SMITH: Yeah, yeah, a lot of people, a lot of people.

BATES: I remember, of course Ed Bowen is a person I admire greatly. Some of the, some of the, of the people in Ed's business, I, I, uh, 01:54:00that I enjoyed--cut that off, and I'll add that too when I call you.

SMITH: Okay. All right. Well, um, ed-, is there a particular story you wanted to share that I haven't a, haven't gotten you to remember yet?

BATES: No.

SMITH: I know you have a few notes over there.

BATES: I think not.

SMITH: Okay, I--

BATES: I've told you, if I think of one, I'll tell you.

SMITH: Okay, okay. Well, what I'll do is I'll, um, I'll get this copied, listen to it, share with you--

BATES: Okay.

SMITH: --and then we can see if we want us to sit down and talk some more?

BATES: Okay.

SMITH: --with some stories, if that's okay with you.

BATES: You, you'll, you'll make me a copy?

SMITH: Yeah, yeah.

BATES: To do a place (??) in a cassette or what?

SMITH: Uh, I can do it however you want. Uh, generally we do it now on a, a CD.

BATES: Okay.

SMITH: Um, but we can do it on a cassette, but, uh--

BATES: CD, CD is okay.

SMITH: Okay. Well let me go ahead and stop this now, see if I can do it right.

[End of interview.]