Interview with Eddie Arcaro, March 1976

HIRSCH: Uh, you saw him at Santa Anita?

ARCARO: Well, the winter that I went to, uh, Santa Anita and Shoemaker was just an apprentice, of course, uh, Jackie Westrope who I have great regard for and was probably one of the closest friends I ever had as a, you know, as a jockey friend, uh, we were almost like brothers, or, told me when I came out there, he says, "Say." He says, "There's a kid out here you're going to see this winter." He says, "We've got a, we've got to spot five pounds. He ought to be spotting us five pounds."

HIRSCH: Is that right?

ARCARO: (laughs) I said, What's his name?" He said, "Shoemaker." I said, "You got to be kidding." But anyway, uh, naturally, riding all winter against him and with him, why, Westrope was right.

HIRSCH: When he was very young and inexperienced, could you, could you see something even then? You know, he'd only been riding a year or so, I suppose.

ARCARO: He hadn't been riding a year, Joe. He'd only been riding at that time--

HIRSCH: Well, he started in April.

ARCARO: Well, April so this is--

HIRSCH: --of '49, so this is the winter of '50--

ARCARO: So you're talking about, uh--

HIRSCH: --nine months--

ARCARO: --Santa Anita starts, starts the day after Christmas, so it was during that winter. So you're talking about, yeah. So I guess he was around, riding around nine months.

HIRSCH: Could you see even then in the rough form?

ARCARO: Oh, yes. Yes. He just had it all, you know, he--and the one thing that even confused me for quite a while riding with him is that, that he, uh, he never had a hold of the horse. He would never sit, sit in his jaw in other words. He would never be pulling on one, and you'd think that he was empty. He would be kind of going along, what, what I thought he had, uh, he never rode with a real short hold on a horse. He always rode with a long hold, which he still does, of course.

HIRSCH: Um-hm. How can he have a long hold with sh-, well, he'd have to, though, with short arms, though?

ARCARO: Well, excepting that when he ride--

HIRSCH: He couldn't take a long hold, I mean a short hold, could he?

ARCARO: Not so. That's not so. As short as jockeys ride, he couldn't be up there short. He couldn't, yes, he--in other words you're, when 00:02:00your stirrups are short he could be up in it, but his style was that. And horses ran for him, you know. He didn't, he didn't have to, he didn't have to use as much energy as most riders, uh, used to make a horse run. It, it seemed that horses ran for him which comes with riders like that. I don't know, uh, naturally in my long career, I've seen a few riders like that that horses just naturally ran for.

HIRSCH: Is he as good as anybody you've ridden against?

ARCARO: Oh, I think so. Yes. I don't, I don't think that when you buckle it right down that, uh, Shoemaker has all the attributes that anybody else has excepting that I think he has more intelligence than most. And I'm talking on a horse. I don't know about his business acumen or--(pause)--although he--

HIRSCH: Who were the three best riders you've ridden against?

ARCARO: Well, that's a tough question because, Joe, uh, Westrope, for instance, was one of the best horsemen I think that I have ever seen or 00:03:00ever rode against. You remember he got killed at Hollywood.

HIRSCH: Yeah.

ARCARO: But there were so many, naturally. I, I rode probably through maybe, uh, eight, seven or eight generations of riders. Maybe ten, because riders, the average life of a rider, I guess, is about three years when you break it all down, although Shoemaker and myself, Longden, riders like that have ridden longer. But when you average it out, it really is only about three years. You get heavy, some don't make it, and so that the average comes out three years.

HIRSCH: Well, he'd certainly be one of the three best riders your--

ARCARO: Oh, no doubt about it. You'd have to put him in there, and he's, he's been a success at everyplace he's been. Like, uh, you know, you just can't, uh, you just can't say, Well, he's riding in California and has the best of it, which he does have a little of the best of it. He does, but forgetting all that, every time his come--he came to New 00:04:00York, he, he busted right into the crowd and was a success.

HIRSCH: What makes him a great rider?

ARCARO: Gosh, I wish I could answer that. I could pick great riders every day. Nobody can pick that out. You just can't. What makes Lester Piggott a great rider? What made Gordon Richards a great rider? What, you know, they were there, they come and--

HIRSCH: And yet they all have different styles; the three or four or five boys you just mentioned.

ARCARO: And the boy in Paris is a great rider.

HIRSCH: Saint Martin.

ARCARO: Has a completely different seat than all of them and is a terrific rider. I think he's one of the best riders I've ever seen.

HIRSCH: Uh, what, you've ridden against Shoemaker so many times. Uh, what one race, aside from the match race with Nashua, of course, what one race do you remember, uh, that reall-, that may strike a chord in your memory, uh, where you and Shoe were competing against each other?

ARCARO: Gosh, I competed against him so much that it's kind of hard, it's kind of hard to pick out. Uh--

HIRSCH: See if you can think of some race.

ARCARO: But, uh--

HIRSCH: Possibly in California?

ARCARO: Of course, I remember beating Shoemaker in a race that I'm sure that, forget the match race. The match race is a different game because, uh, you know, if he'd on Nashua he'd have won, too.

HIRSCH: Maybe, maybe not, but that's, let's, that's not a--

ARCARO: That's not a race.

HIRSCH: Let's forget that.

ARCARO: That's really not a race, but I do remember one race that I, am I, I don't know if I can pick out the horse I rode, but it was in the, uh, it was either the Santa Anita Handicap or the Santa Anita Derby; one of the two. And I kept him trapped in on the rail until I got way down almost past the eighth pole before I let him out, and I'm trying 00:06:00to think of the horse he rode and the horse I rode. It could have been, uh, it could have been Mark-Ye-Well. I really don't know, Joe.

HIRSCH: It would help, uh, if--

ARCARO: Yeah. If I could remember it, but, because, but anyway, he had moved up in on the rail, turn for home, and instead of me naturally going by which he thought, I guess he thought I would make that move, I didn't do it. I just sat there and kept him locked in, in back, back of the leader, and when I let him out, I finally beat him by about a neck. (laughs) I let him up leaving maybe at the sixteenth pole, and he finally got him back and around and I just did beat some. I'm sure that, uh, but you know, all of that, all of that really has no bearing on, on a man; on his ability.

HIRSCH: No.

ARCARO: Because I'm sure there are races that he has had me trapped that I can't remember that he may remember, and, uh, he made me lose races where I should have won and I made him lose races where he should have 00:07:00won.

HIRSCH: Do you remember any particular great, particularly great rides of his where he, uh, really stood out?

ARCARO: That's too tough a question. I wouldn't know how to, I really don't know how to answer because look, let's face it, I just--

HIRSCH: You've got millions of them, but I just, uh, wondered if you, if one of them stuck, stuck in your mind. That's all.

ARCARO: I really don't. Uh, I know that he rode a great race on, on, one of the great races I seen him ride was when he won the Belmont on Jaipur.

HIRSCH: Right. Right. Do you remember that race?

ARCARO: I did the telecast on it.

HIRSCH: Oh, Jesus. That's right. That's right.

ARCARO: I did the telecast on it, and, uh, it was the year that I got in the mount (??).

HIRSCH: That's right. So, you got in the mount (??).

ARCARO: Right. And I naturally, I was rooting for Jaipur, and I just, I just thought that he did a--see, Shoemaker had something that, as I started to say before, that took me quite a while to figure out. Why, Westrope said, told me, says, "When you hook this guy, he's gonna beat 00:08:00you." And I says, "Jack, there's nobody can beat me from the eighth pole home; you or nobody else." And what Shoemaker had the capability of doing, and this was when he was kid, you would run to him, and he would look completely empty because I say he never, I never seen Shoemaker ever fight a horse. He just had great hands and still has, uh, and when you think you've got him, he always has, uh, a little reserve left. He ca-, he does something. He'll gather one up and get him all together and then in a sixteenth of a mile, he'll change the whole picture on you unless you know him.

HIRSCH: Um-hm.

ARCARO: Which, as I say, it took me a little while to figure out what he was doing because for a few times I'd run to him and think that I had him dead beat and then run by him a neck, and at the finish, he would come on again.

HIRSCH: He had something left.

ARCARO: Well, and he planned it that way. He had the coolness and the 00:09:00guts or whatever, however you want to say it, but, but, uh--

HIRSCH: Not to use it all up.

ARCARO: Well, it takes a lot of guts to do that.

HIRSCH: Sure it does.

ARCARO: For instance, if you get beat doing that, you know, you, you can look like an awful fool.

HIRSCH: Well, he, of course, he won seven thousand times, so he didn't get beat too often.

ARCARO: Well, now. We're talking about now. We're going back on him. He did that when he was a kid. He'd let you go get by on a neck. You could turn for home and run by on the neck, and he would just stay right there and you'd only be by on the neck. And when you'd try to move away from him, you could only get by on the neck. He would just keep right there with you on the outside of him trying to get by him, and he would stay there. And, you'd have him beat in the neck and say, well, I've got him, and about the sixteenth pole down near the finish he would gather one up and strike him a couple times left-handed and boom. Here he'd come again on you, so what you had to do and what I finally did is I would either get by him in a hurry or--

HIRSCH: --rush past him--

ARCARO: --if I didn't get by him, I would sit there with him. I would, 00:10:00I would just say, Well, we'll play the same game together.

HIRSCH: (laughs)

ARCARO: But he, uh, he's one of--

HIRSCH: Was her very competitive, would you say? Has he been very competitive in his career?

ARCARO: Oh, yes, with anything he does. Like, in golf, now he plays tennis, but anything he does, he just, uh, is really a competitor; ping pong. And when I went to El Paso, I told you that story that, about him winning the golden gloves. I couldn't believe that. Did, did you ever know that?

HIRSCH: Yeah. In boxing?

ARCARO: On the level.

HIRSCH: You mean as a kid.

ARCARO: Well, he, he only weighed, uh, naturally, you have classes.

HIRSCH: Jesus.

ARCARO: But, uh, I went to El Paso doing some, uh, PR work for American Totalizator who I was working for at that time, and I met a kid that went to school with him. He was a big six-foot-tall kid, and he said, "I'm gonna tell you a story you're never going to believe." And I said, "What is that?" He says, "You're never going to believe that Shoemaker 00:11:00was golden gloves champ here two years in a row." I says, "At what the, what weight?" He says--

HIRSCH: Sure. Forty pound weight.

ARCARO: Well, I guess he weighed maybe seventy pounds or whatever, you know.

HIRSCH: Jesus.

ARCARO: But Shoemaker can fight, by the way.

HIRSCH: Can he?

ARCARO: He really can.

HIRSCH: Has he ever gotten into a fight? I've never seen him--

ARCARO: I've never seen him fight in the jocks room or ever.

HIRSCH: I've never seen him exchange a sharp word with anybody.

ARCARO: No, but he, but, uh, off the record, I've seen him hit a guy at the Louisville at the bar that was bothering him. He hit him and flattened him in that little hotel we used to stay at.

HIRSCH: Yeah. That little place--

ARCARO: That's a true story. We were, this guy grabbed him and kept pulling on him, and, and the guy was, uh--

HIRSCH: Was he a big guy?

ARCARO: Hell, he was as tall as you.

HIRSCH: Oh, Jesus Christ.

ARCARO: And he was sitting on that stool, and Shoe just hit him once and down he fell off the stool and then went on to the men's room.

HIRSCH: (laughs) Oh, Jesus.

ARCARO: This is a true story. ----------(??) about it someday. He just hit him once, but anyway--

HIRSCH: (laughs)

ARCARO: But as a rider, you know, uh, of course the things that make 00:12:00all riders last, last are the people that you're connected with. Let's face it, because all riders, jockeys get in some stage of their life where they get in slumps, and if you don't have the people that you've made friends of and have been close to that pick up you--

HIRSCH: Have good horses to help you along.

ARCARO: --pick you up when you, when you're on, because you can disappear, which happens to many great riders, by the way. No rider continuously rides good every year and every day. It's just impossible. It's, you can't keep the adrenaline to do that.

HIRSCH: Well, there's no question that the Association of Jockeys (??) has been--

ARCARO: Or any other, or any other athletic, uh, you could be a boxer, or a football player, whatever. They all throw in bad days and weeks and get in slumps, and I'm sure that in my life, and it sure as hell 00:13:00happened to Shoemaker, is that when I would go into these things, I had enough friends that would pick me up and put me the right--

HIRSCH: Woody Stephens and Max Hirsch, all those fellows--

ARCARO: Max Hirsch and you know, Ben Jones and people that, uh, liked me and knew that it was just a question of time. Right now Shoemaker has winning year.

HIRSCH: Charlie has been great, yeah.

ARCARO: Well, been great, but Charlie knows his potential and he knows that when he goes bad that it isn't him going bad. The horses, he's just not getting on the horses at that time, but they stick with you and you eventually come around.

HIRSCH: Well, now long can he ride, uh, Shoe?

ARCARO: Gosh, the last time I seen him, I haven't seen him since, uh--

HIRSCH: He had one of his greatest years last year by the way. He won almost, won three million dollars.

ARCARO: Right. And I, I watched him, and he wasn't riding a lot of races, by the way, at Del Mar last summer.

HIRSCH: No. He didn't ride much at all.

ARCARO: He didn't ride much and wasn't trying to ride a lot, but he was riding, like, two races a day, three races a day, and would have rather 00:14:00been out playing tennis. But he--

HIRSCH: Oh, sure.

ARCARO: --he had obligations and, it was more of a vacation. Yeah.

HIRSCH: Well, how'd he look to you?

ARCARO: Just great. Just super. And, uh, he just, in fact, he looks better now than he did five years ago.

HIRSCH: (laughs)

ARCARO: But he told me something that, uh, surprised me. You know, Shoemaker doesn't talk very much to many people by the way.

HIRSCH: No, he doesn't.

ARCARO: But he told me he had to change his style a little bit. He had to pull his stirrups up shorter than he had ever ridden.

HIRSCH: Why do you think he did that?

ARCARO: I asked, I asked him the same question, "Why?" He said, "Well," he says, "It's put me in a stronger position to finish." And he says, "You've got to go along with it with the mode and the, uh, times. All jockeys ride shorter." He says, "I know you thought you ride short, but today according to our standards, you, you rode long." And he says, "It 00:15:00really puts you in a stronger position."

HIRSCH: To put the stirrups up?

ARCARO: Up?

HIRSCH: Jesus. I thought if you'd let them down you would be stronger.

ARCARO: No, no, no. It's just the opposite, Joe. Yeah.

HIRSCH: Hmm.

ARCARO: You can't, might, you might not get as low on a horse and as flat, but pulling your stirrups up al-, makes you stronger because you've got, you've got more leverage. It just gives you more leverage riding short. The only thing that, that you may question, as I say, uh, for instance, in Europe I don't, I don't think that they could, these riders could ride this short and ride in Europe because you've got to gallop the horse to the post without a pony.

HIRSCH: That's right.

ARCARO: And they can duck and do a lot of things.

HIRSCH: What's this business?

ARCARO: Well, that, that still wouldn't make any difference. See up and down, that wouldn't make no difference in the shortness of the stirrup.

HIRSCH: It wouldn't?

ARCARO: No. But to gallop one over there and have one do tricks under you, I don't even, I don't know if you could, you know, I don't know 00:16:00how many times he might, you might lose a jockey. Uh, but, uh, but I've noticed, uh, all jockeys ride a lot shorter than--

HIRSCH: The only thing that, uh, a lot of people can't understand is he, he doesn't, he has, he wasn't a great whip rider like Atkinson. You know, they don't see, understand how he could ride--

ARCARO: Yeah, but that's not so. Atkinson number one, could hit a horse twenty times, Joe, and wouldn't put a bump on it. Very few people knew that. He had a way of, used to call him the slasher and he was well- named because he could raise his whip way above his head. By the time he hit him, he wouldn't raise a welt on one. Shoemaker can hit a horse three times and put three welts on one.

HIRSCH: Is that right?

ARCARO: Because he, when he hits one, he's hit, but Atkinson would brush almost. It was, you know, it was like a motion with him.

HIRSCH: Um-hm. Yeah.

ARCARO: But if you're trying to put Atkinson and Shoemaker together--

HIRSCH: I'm just talking about whips, you know, the use of the whip. That's all. No, their style--

ARCARO: But, uh, but that was just, it was really more of show because I could hit a horse three times and I'd cut him I could hit him so hard.

HIRSCH: Um-hm. You hit hard.

ARCARO: But Atkinson would whip one half through, halfway through the stretch and wouldn't never hurt and wouldn't never welt him. Horses ran for him and it was a different style, but Atkinson was not a classic rider.

HIRSCH: No, no.

ARCARO: He just wasn't.

HIRSCH: He was just a busy fellow.

ARCARO: Yeah. Shoe, and he was honest which was a great asset. Of course, Shoemaker has all that going for him. He's honest and still has great ability.

HIRSCH: When did you guys start, uh, running together? Was it right away or did it take a while. After all he was a kid, and you were a star.

ARCARO: Shoemaker, by the way, uh, with that, uh, law in California. I think it's still--

HIRSCH: Kugen Law (??).

ARCARO: The Kugen Law, right. Shoemaker was making a lot of money 00:18:00and would come to the jock's room in blue jeans and slacks, and, uh, naturally I just had come from New York. And most, at that time, were going back--

HIRSCH: Jacket and tie, I guess.

ARCARO: --tie, and, and you, you would dress coming in to the jock's room. And, uh, after I knew him, got to know him a little while, a little better, I asked him why he didn't dress, and he told me.

HIRSCH: Didn't have any money.

ARCARO: He didn't have any money, although he had money.

HIRSCH: Yeah. Right. Couldn't get his hands on it.

ARCARO: He was on an allowance, and I didn't, I didn't understand that. I didn't know that, by the way.

HIRSCH: A hundred a week or something. Maybe two hundred a week. Some very modest figure.

ARCARO: Well, whatever allowance it was, it was very minor; it was a very small allowance. But anyway, as soon as he got out of that, I think that he's one of the--

HIRSCH: But, I mean, did he, did, did he express himself enough for you to go out and have a drink with him in the evening? That's what I mean.

ARCARO: Well, he didn't drink. He didn't drink heavy. You're talking about, Joe, he was, uh--

HIRSCH: Well, of course, right.

ARCARO: The difference in our age would be, what? You say he's forty- four and I'm sixty.

HIRSCH: Forty-four. That's fifteen years.

ARCARO: Fifteen, and that's a lot when you're going out.

HIRSCH: When you're very young. Yes.

ARCARO: Yes, right. That's a lot.

HIRSCH: So when he was twenty, you were thirty-five.

ARCARO: Right.

HIRSCH: You were--

ARCARO: But, but the two things, uh, as soon as he was capable of doing it, uh, he did go out and he, he dresses well. I think he dresses better than all of, all the riders outside. A lot of these riders think they're dressing--

HIRSCH: Well, they're just show-offs.

ARCARO: Well.

HIRSCH: He, he is a good dresser. He dresses beautifully.

ARCARO: Well, he dresses in a stylish way.

HIRSCH: California. Yeah.

ARCARO: He dresses in a stylish way and it's not a kooky way. He, he could be in a, he could be in a bank meeting and--

HIRSCH: Yeah. And not be out of place.

ARCARO: --be accepted, you know. He's, uh, he's just a--

HIRSCH: Uh, but of all the, uh, riders you've, uh, known in your life, and that includes from Europe and Asia. You've seen some Asian riders, too.

ARCARO: Yeah. Seen Japanese riders, Australian riders. There are great 00:20:00riders throughout the world just as I say. I guess, like, Nicklaus in golf, he's kind of a standout. Shoemaker's a standout in his field. He's not as big a standout, of course, as Nicklaus is in golf probably, but, because it's, uh, you've got some riders, a lot of young riders that can ride.

HIRSCH: Yeah, but isn't that figure seven thousand kind of remarkable?

ARCARO: Well, sure it is. Gee, it's, uh--

HIRSCH: I mean--

ARCARO: I don't think anybody will ever, uh, tie it. Especially, I don't, I'm sure he's not getting getting near, uh, even thinking about quitting.

HIRSCH: I mean that really is, uh--

ARCARO: I'm sure he'll probably win maybe eight thousand, nine thousand races before he quits, I mean, barring accidents. Uh, and, nobody's gonna tie that. Not in my time anyway; I won't be around to see it for sure. His, uh, his record is just fantastic.

HIRSCH: You know, when you stop to think of that, if a fellow rides two 00:21:00hundred winners a year, and that's a lot of winners a year.

ARCARO: No, it isn't really.

HIRSCH: It isn't?

ARCARO: No.

HIRSCH: Two hundred winners a year?

ARCARO: No, no, no. Not now that you have nine and ten races a day. That really is not a, not for a top rider.

HIRSCH: Christ, let's say three hundred winners a year. Is that a lot of winners in a year?

ARCARO: Yeah. Three hundred. It would be.

HIRSCH: You're damn right it is.

ARCARO: You start winning three hundred winners a year, well, let's figure it out. You're winning almost--

HIRSCH: A race a day. That's right.

ARCARO: And that, now, that includes--

HIRSCH: Well, it would take a fellow twenty years to come within, uh, to get six thousand winners. If he rode three hundred winners a year every year for twenty years, he'd have six thousand.

ARCARO: Um-hm.

HIRSCH: And who the hell could ride them every year, you know?

ARCARO: I mean, he was out a year.

HIRSCH: That's right, and he missed a year.

ARCARO: He was out more than that.

HIRSCH: Uh, he missed two years, didn't he? Really, he had the once with the hip, with the leg and once with the, what else did he have?

ARCARO: Pelvis.

HIRSCH: The pelvis, sure.

ARCARO: Yeah.

HIRSCH: He missed the better part of two seasons at least. So that really, uh, it really is remarkable.

ARCARO: Oh. It's fantastic.

HIRSCH: It's very ----------(??). Besides which, who the hell is--

ARCARO: ----------(??) race last year? I don't even know.

HIRSCH: Well, he won some two hundred-odd races, but, uh, who the hell is second on the list? Longden?

ARCARO: Longden was--

HIRSCH: Longden was about six thousand. Yeah, but John rode for forty years, didn't he?

ARCARO: Yeah, but John rode in a different era, too. That's, that's really unfair.

HIRSCH: True.

ARCARO: John rode, uh, John rode in the time that I rode in. You know, Joe, if you rode three races a day in New York, you were a star. Well, you only had six races a day, and one of them was a jumping race so there was only five races you could compete with.

HIRSCH: Not as many opportunities.

ARCARO: Well, you just didn't. Now today, they have twice as many opportunities.

HIRSCH: But even--

ARCARO: You had to be a real star to ride average three--riding three races a day in New York, where you take, uh, nine races a day now?

HIRSCH: Um-hm. Well, nine. Ten in Florida. Christ, you know. You know.

ARCARO: Well, you know, if you really want to put in the, uh, I know 00:23:00when I was riding if I rode a thousand races a year that was--

HIRSCH: That was a tremendous amount.

ARCARO: --that was only at the end of my, you know, when they started having a lot of races.

HIRSCH: Yeah. Now kids ride two thousand races a year.

ARCARO: To give an example, one of the best riders I ever seen in my life was Sonny Workman.

HIRSCH: Was he really?

ARCARO: Oh, yes. He was--there was nobody that could ride a horse any better than Sonny Workman; just never, there was, including all, everybody I'm talking about.

HIRSCH: Yeah. Yeah.

ARCARO: And I became very friendly with Sonny, and when I tell you that in his whole life he rode twenty-five hundred races and one five hundred.

HIRSCH: One down to five.

ARCARO: And he was the best, considered the best rider in America for many years, so there were many days that he just didn't ride.

HIRSCH: Yeah, well Sonny was, uh--

ARCARO: The opportunity wasn't there. They only had, as I say, worked in them days when you worked first--

HIRSCH: Was he a very good rider to ride against?

ARCARO: Oh, he was a competitive rider and one of the great riders.

HIRSCH: Yeah. You didn't ride against Sande at all to speak of?

ARCARO: No, no. But even Sande, I, how many races did he ride in his 00:24:00life? See, the figures get out of line because it's like money.

HIRSCH: It's inflation, of course. Of course.

ARCARO: You talk about golfer Sam Snead, we were talking about it today, Sam Snead in his whole life didn't win as much, uh, in, as, well, he won as much, but, he never in ten years it took him to win thirty thousand in ten years. His cousin or nephew won that finishing second the other day. You know, so money you can't compare. There's no question of, uh, the money.

HIRSCH: Was Workman on a par with, uh, with, uh, Westrope?

ARCARO: Whether Workman was on a par with anybody, but as I say you seen him so little when you analyze it, you don't--

HIRSCH: All right.

ARCARO: Workman, uh, would ride two races or, if you rode, uh, re-, if you rode seven races a week it was a lot because you worked for the Whitneys and the only one you rode for was the Whitneys.

HIRSCH: That's right, too.

ARCARO: When you came, when I came to New York, you only rode for the people that you worked for because everybody had their own jockey. It isn't like now where you've got an influx and many people owning horses. It's a complete different, uh--

HIRSCH: Well, now you mentioned, uh, Westrope and Workman and Shoemaker. Is there anybody else in that class that you, uh, really rode against in your, uh, in your time? You can't, you can't speak about other times because it's--

ARCARO: Well, of course, one of the great riders, uh, Joe, that will never get recognition because he was in too much trouble and there was nobody could, that ever put a leg on a horse any better than Don Meade.

HIRSCH: That you rode against?

ARCARO: That anybody rode against.

HIRSCH: Well, now I mean, but do you, you--

ARCARO: Look at his record. You talk about a record. He rode, he rode three and four hundred winners a year, and that's when--

HIRSCH: Did you run against Don a lot?

ARCARO: Oh, sure. Rode, rode until he got ruled off. That was during the war.

HIRSCH: Forty-five. That's right.

ARCARO: Nobody had, had a record like Don Meade until he got ruled off and got in a lot of trouble. He got ruled off.

HIRSCH: I mean, aside, records aside he was really a great rider.

ARCARO: Great rider.

HIRSCH: Is there anybody else you got--

ARCARO: After being ruled off for three years he came back and led the Riders of America.

HIRSCH: Did he?

ARCARO: That's right. First year he come back, and he was ruled off for two or three years.

HIRSCH: Is there anybody else, uh, in our time that, uh, that, uh, that is in that class with Workman and, uh, Meade and Westrope and Shoemaker? Anybody?

ARCARO: I'll have to give that a little thought. (pause) See, I, see, what I'm not doing, Joe, I'm not bringing the modern riders now.

HIRSCH: Well, you didn't ride against the modern riders.

ARCARO: Well, I rode against Baeza. Baeza, at the time I was riding, wasn't all that--

HIRSCH: That's right.

ARCARO: See, he wasn't all that great.

HIRSCH: You can only go with your own experience.

ARCARO: Yeah. In my time, he was not all that great, uh--

HIRSCH: These are, these are your contemporaries. That's, that's what this is, uh--

ARCARO: There are great riders now.

HIRSCH: You haven't mentioned a bad rider. There's no question about that. You've kept it, uh, how many up to now? Five, four is enough. They had to be the great riders of the, of the era.

ARCARO: See, uh, Westrope, of course, as he got older got bad, but when you look back on his, he was the first one that ever won, uh, four hundred races in one year.

HIRSCH: Is that right?

ARCARO: He was a super rider, but then you get a lot of bad things happening. I mean, he became an alcoholic; a lot of bad things happening. The day he got killed, he killed himself.

HIRSCH: Yeah.

ARCARO: He was gone, then. That was the end of his--

HIRSCH: But Shoemaker really belongs, uh, in that company?

ARCARO: Oh, I think he does.

HIRSCH: The numbers are so--

ARCARO: I think Shoemaker could go to any country and ride.

HIRSCH: Is that right?

ARCARO: You know, I, I always thought that I could do that. I always thought that I could compete. In fact, I really wanted to take a crack at, uh, riding in Europe, uh, right before I retired.

HIRSCH: Um-hm. Yes.

ARCARO: But it's unfair to go to Europe because their set-up is completely different. Unless you're with a big stable, you have no chance in Europe.

HIRSCH: No, they're strictly stable.

ARCARO: It isn't like our country. A European can come here and he gets a chance.

HIRSCH: I'm trying to remember his name, ----------(??), but you can't call up, uh, Noel Murless and say, I'd like to ride one of your horses.

ARCARO: Well, but you can get an agent, and if you have ability, you get a chance in America. But that doesn't happen in Europe. You've got to be with a good outfit or, or somebody recommends you to a good outfit. It's really hard to break in.

HIRSCH: There's no question about that.

ARCARO: See, Shoemaker could go over there, and if he didn't have the right people to start him off, which he would have right now. Now he would because Hunt Races, we have a lot of Americans racing over there. He might get a good shot right now, but when I quit, there wasn't that. That situation didn't prevail. I really did want to try that, by the way.

HIRSCH: Incidentally, speaking of, uh, you mentioned Jaipur before. Uh, 00:29:00you also got him to mount, uh, Kelso, and he couldn't ride Kelso. Why couldn't he ride Kelso?

ARCARO: Well, I don't, I never did believe that, Joe. Uh, Mrs. Dupont disagreed with me, and she, uh, she just felt that Kelso needed a rider of my type and she picked Milo who was a good rider, no contest.

HIRSCH: And didn't ride like you and looked like you on a horse.

ARCARO: And, she tried to pick a rider my style, but really Kelso wasn't good when Shoemaker rode him. There was no doubt about it because there was no way that Kelso could have been Horse of the Year five years in a row and not been, not to been a good horse.

HIRSCH: No.

ARCARO: Well, if a horse is a good horse, there's no such thing as one rider being able, having to ride him. I don't believe that. You know, I just think, think Shoemaker was unlucky in getting on him when Kelso was not good. Donald Pierce rode him. He didn't run any good for him. Uh, Milo got on him--

HIRSCH: At the right time.

ARCARO: --at the right time, and the, another thing, I don't know. I 00:30:00was trying to read back on his record the other day. I don't know if Kelso was ever any good in the spring of the year.

HIRSCH: No, he wasn't.

ARCARO: And that's when, uh, that's when Shoemaker jumped on him.

HIRSCH: Sure. When you got off, he got on.

ARCARO: Right. Uh, there's no way that Kelso was too good a horse. He would run for anybody when he was good. You know, you can't. It'd be like saying could I ride Swaps or could I ride, these, these great horses anybody could ride unless you just, uh, maybe one horse in my life I might have rode that maybe other riders, might have been a lot of riders couldn't have ridden him was Whirlaway. He was a hard horse to ride, but Shoemaker would have gotten along well with a horse like Whirlaway because the one thing that you had to do with Whirlaway was drop your hands back. If you ever started up around his ears with, and got a short hold on him, he'd go right to the outside fence. I don't know what made him do it. I didn't discover it. Ben Jones discovered 00:31:00it. That's why he picked me to ride. But Woolf, as good a rider as he was, had a hard time.

HIRSCH: With Whirlaway?

ARCARO: Yes. Because he rode with a high--

HIRSCH: The old man told him behind his ears.

ARCARO: Yeah. Yeah. He wouldn't, he hated it.

HIRSCH: Was Woolf a great rider?

ARCARO: Yes. Oh, yes, he was.

HIRSCH: In the, in the class of, uh, of Meade and, uh, and, uh--

ARCARO: Well, it's hard to classify a guy like Woolf because he was, and Workman, because really they didn't compete every day like I did and Shoemaker does and all these riders today. They were classic riders, and we remember them and I remember them, of course, because the only time that we would ride, I really remember them is in the classic races because that's about the only time they rode.

HIRSCH: Um-hm. You mean the important races?

ARCARO: The important races because there weren't, there weren't that many races every day.

HIRSCH: That's right.

ARCARO: For instance, there is a rider out in California who is a, when I came to New York, was one of the, I thought, was one of the best 00:32:00riders I'd ever seen, and nobody ever mentions his name.

HIRSCH: Who was that?

ARCARO: Harry Richards. But, see, nobody ever remembers him, but he rode the 8:30, and I seen him ride a lot of good horses. But nobody could ride any better than him except that he was so heavy he didn't ride and compete every day.

HIRSCH: Just a few of them.

ARCARO: But when you're talking about guys competing day in and day out, that's the kind of riders we now are talking about, like you and I talked about Howard Grant. Howard Grant's a great rider, but he doesn't compete enough.

HIRSCH: No perseverance. No, he doesn't stick with it.

ARCARO: He doesn't care. He just, uh, he gets four dollars, he doesn't care about riding.

HIRSCH: That's part, I suppose, of, uh, greatness is the competing, uh, regularly and, uh--

ARCARO: It's according to what you want out of life. Shoemaker, I'm, I'm sure that I, Shoemaker and I both have the same goals. We, it's a profession, and he wants to be the best in his profession.

HIRSCH: You think he likes to ride?

ARCARO: Oh, I think he does. Yes. I don't think he--

HIRSCH: Has he ever expressed himself?

ARCARO: No, but I don't think anybody could ride that didn't like to ride, I mean and be successful, although I've seen riders. You know, when a rider starts, gets to a point where he doesn't like to ride which I did the last few years that I rode, it became such an effort for me to build up the adrenaline. I couldn't, I just could not build up the adrenaline unless you, it was important. Um, but I was riding such great horses that Shoemaker is right now.

HIRSCH: Hmm.

ARCARO: He's getting on so much stock whether he likes it or not he can't, it's hard to quit. You know, when I quit, I left the three best horses in America.

HIRSCH: Yes. Kelso, Jaipur--

ARCARO: And Ball of Flowers.

HIRSCH: That's right.

ARCARO: They were the three best in America. Well, it was really a tough decision to make, but I, people forget or don't, didn't know that I had been trying to quit for three years, but I kept getting on the champion every year. Now, how do you run off and leave a champion? And 00:34:00it was really a hard decision for me to make, and the way I made it, I went to Australia and took four months off and I said, well, there is another way of life. I just thought there was one way, well I had a lot of fun riding.

HIRSCH: There's no question about it.

ARCARO: And I'm sure Shoemaker does. Sure, I met a lot of great people and I--

HIRSCH: No question about it.

ARCARO: Gosh, it's given me all the prestige that I have in my life, and I, and I evaluate it more now than I ever did. I said that at my birthday party the other night.

HIRSCH: Oh, did you?

ARCARO: Yeah, you know, you really don't, uh, as you, when you're young--

HIRSCH: I'm really sorry I didn't make it. I, I was at ACE. I wanted--

ARCARO: I made a little talk. It wasn't long and had some great people there, but as you grow older you, uh, kind of look the field over and, uh, the friends that you have are very, become very important to you. Yeah. But it doesn't mean too much when you're young. It really doesn't.

HIRSCH: No. Because you're young. That's part of being young.

ARCARO: Yeah. You know, friends you say, well, I'll see them when I see 00:35:00them, but--

HIRSCH: That's right.

ARCARO: --but now I cherish, uh, the friends that I have.

HIRSCH: You've got some wonderful friends, too. I'll tell you that.

ARCARO: Yeah, yeah. I appreciate them now where I didn't when I, I guess everybody's that way when they're young.

HIRSCH: But anyway, I think we've done pretty well by the little man and uh--

[Pause in recording.]

ARCARO: --terrible time learning how to ride. He seemed to fit right in as a rider immediately.

HIRSCH: Did you really have a tough time?

ARCARO: Oh, yes. It took me, I went through almost all of my apprentice before it ever dawned on me how to ride.

HIRSCH: Hmm.

ARCARO: And had a good coach. I really did. I had good coaches.

HIRSCH: Yeah. Clarence Davison.

ARCARO: Well, Davison was one, but--

HIRSCH: And then Otie came along.

ARCARO: Otie was before Clarence Davison.

HIRSCH: Was he?

ARCARO: Otie showed me the basics, uh, but then Clarence would go over me every night. Why did you make this move? Why did you do that?

HIRSCH: Up here?

ARCARO: I don't know if Shoemaker had to go through that. See, I, I think that he, he just felt it was natural, more natural to him than it was to me.

HIRSCH: That's a good point. That's a good point.

ARCARO: Uh, because he could ride from the time I ever seen him, and he 00:36:00still had the apprentice.

HIRSCH: Jesus.

ARCARO: You know, he would make the right moves like a pro, you know. He was a pro when he had the apprentice. I don't think he ever had the, should have ever had the apprentice.

HIRSCH: (laughs)

[End of interview.]