Interview with Dr. Charles Hagyard, December 21 and 29, 1978

HAGYARD: Well my father, Dr. Ed, as he was commonly called by most people, was born in Canada, March the 24th, 1963 [editor's note: Ed Hagyard was born in 1863]. (pause) My grandfather, E. T. Hagyard, Dr. Edward Thomas Hagyard, moved to Kentucky in 1876 and resided in 00:01:00Winchester for one year, then moved to Lexington where he remained for the rest of his life. My father was thirteen years of age when they moved to Kentucky, and after graduating from high school and spending one year in what is now the University of Kentucky, he went to veterinary college in Toronto, graduated in 1888, getting back 00:02:00to Lexington and, following the advice of my grandfather, went to Nashville to spend a year with his brother, Thomas Horsley Hagyard, and it was my grandfather that advised him to go there and spend a year with Tom and make his mistakes down there and then come back to Lexington. And after being in practice in Lexington for a good many years, during which time, my grandfather and Uncle John and my father built a veterinary hospital on Short Street in 1891. That building still stands. In 1896, Ed Tipton, who was closely connected to Marcus 00:03:00Daly who owned the Bitterroot Stock Farm in Montana, and, uh, Mr. Daly asked Mr. Tipton to find a promising young veterinarian who would come to Montana and be the resident veterinarian at the Bitterroot Stock Farm. My father accepted the position. After being there for two years, Mr. Daly told him to get another veterinarian to do the leg work, and he said, "I, I'm going to make you manager of all my equine interests, both Thoroughbred and Standardbred." Uh, my father made four 00:04:00trips to England and France to buy mares for Marcus Daly, uh, several of those have proven to be foundation mares in, in the United States. In 1899, my father married Louise Elliott, a native Montanan, whose parents, my grandparents, maternal grandparents, went West by wagon train before the railroads were built. Uh, Mr. Daly died in 1900. 00:05:00I was born January 9th, 1901, and in 1902, my father held a dispersal sale of Marcus Daly's better horses and mares, particularly at Madison Square Garden. Uh, shortly thereafter, we moved to Lex-, back to Lexington where we remained until 1908, at which time, we moved to Portland, Oregon because of my mother's health. Uh, she passed away December 21st, 1910, and I was barely nine years old; I should say, 00:06:00nearly ten years old. Two years later, in 1912, my father moved back to Lexington and formed a partnership with Dr. James D. Shannon.

GALLAHER: Go ahead, I'm just looking. I never trust these things. It's working.

HAGYARD: Uh--

GALLAHER: (pause) This was on Short Street. That's when you were located on Short Street.

HAGYARD: And they built it in 1914 or '15, the hospital--

GALLAHER: And that was the first veterinary hospital here?

HAGYARD: No, the first one was the one my grandfather--

GALLAHER: Was the one your grandma--then, there was one--

HAGYARD: Yeah, and that building still stands. Uh, it's just about two doors east of the old county jail, but the one that, uh, Dr. Shannon and my father built is on the site of the present Esplanade.

GALLAHER: Right there--

HAGYARD: Upon-- [dogs barking]

[Pause in recording.]

GALLAHER: We're on Short Street.

HAGYARD: Uh, at this location they remained until Dr. Shannon's death in 1919. Uh, by that time, I had graduated from high school and, and 00:08:00spent one sem-, mid-year and spent one semester at the University of Kentucky taking agriculture. Uh, at the end of that first semester, I decided that that was as far as I wanted to go in that subject, and I didn't--my fath-, my father always tried to dissuade me from being a veterinarian.

GALLAHER: Why?

HAGYARD: He said it was too hard of a life. Uh, rigorous and, uh--well, 00:09:00I think he would have preferred that I be a physician or a chemist or go into banking or something else. Needless--none of which I was interested in with the possible exception of medicine. However, when I told him in the late summer of 1919 that I decided to--that I wanted to be a veterinarian, he was very happy. Unfortunately, I decided too late to, uh, enter college that fall, and I had to lay out for the 00:10:00entire year, and, uh, I entered the university--the veterinary college at the University of Toronto in the fall of 1920 and graduated there in 1924 and immediately went into practice with my father and, uh, Dr. Fraser Smith, my father's nephew who had, had moved from Richmond, Virginia here three years prior to that time, and he was in practice with my father. The firm was then known as Hagyard and Smith.

GALLAHER: What was the, uh, economic status then of, of a veterinary, veterinarian? Did they make decent money or not? Now, this was just back when your father was practicing.

HAGYARD: Uh, yes, the ----------(??) returns, I would say we were comparable to other fields of endeavor at that time.

GALLAHER: Were people willing to pay for the services?

HAGYARD: Yes. We had very, very few bad accounts. Uh, the financial status of most of our accounts was extremely good, and some of them, 00:12:00like a good many Kentuckians, if they paid, they paid twice a year, they were still paid.

GALLAHER: That's good. That's good. That's--why did they pay twice a year?

HAGYARD: Well, I think, Mary Jane that the reason was chiefly that, uh, they'd harvested, uh, their payments around the first of July or in July, where after they harvested wheat and some other crops, and their payments around the first of year, after they sold the tobacco, yearlings, whatever. It was two times of the year when they had some money in reserve.

GALLAHER: What about the, uh, social status of a veterinarian at that time?

HAGYARD: Uh, my remarks two minutes ago when I said that my father tried to dissuade me from becoming a veterinarian, that was one of the reasons that he didn't want me to be a veterinarian because the veterinarian, the veterinarian profession at this time was not looked up to as highly looked, looked upon as highly as the medical profession or dentist or the other professions. Uh, I will say this, at this right here, 00:14:00though; that I consider myself most fortunate in that I spent fifty years of my life with the finest man that I ever knew, my father.

GALLAHER: Did he live that long, Charlie? Were, were you with him that long?

HAGYARD: Well, my father died in 1951 when I was fifty years old. He was a man who was very kindly disposed and all of my life, I never saw him do an unkind act, and I'm sure he gave away as much money in his 00:15:00lifetime as he left. He was a man that lived as close to the golden rule as anyone I ever knew.

GALLAHER: How did he accept the changes that came in veterinary medicine as it went along?

HAGYARD: He was progressive. I believe more so than I. Uh, of course when he was practicing, first in practicing, their means of transportation was horse and buggy. Uh, he owned his first car in 1913, which was, uh, at that time a new car, of course, and no self- 00:16:00starter, Prest-O-Lite headlights, right hand drive, and lacked many, many features that our modern day cars have.

GALLAHER: (pause) It made a big difference in his work, though, didn't it?

HAGYARD: Oh, yes. Uh, the amount of drugs and equipment that he was, 00:17:00that they were able to carry on a horse and buggy was minimal compared to what they were able to carry in their, uh, automobiles, and of course, it was necessary that they have a pretty full line of drugs and various medicines and instruments that they required because all the work was done on the farms--

GALLAHER: At that time.

HAGYARD: --or at that stables at the racetrack.

GALLAHER: He did both racetrack and farm work?

HAGYARD: Yes.

GALLAHER: Did he invent any techniques of veterinary medicine that we should know about or--

HAGYARD: I don't know of anything that he actually invented, uh, or developed. Uh, of course when he started practice, uh, there were no biological preparations, no antitoxins, no serums. Uh, but whenever anything that came along, he wouldn't be nearly the first to try it or the last to adopt. He waited--usually waited to see how it worked out 00:19:00in an experimental way before he started using those things himself. I remember distinctly that one of the first, uh, biological preparations that came up was a tetanus antitoxin.

GALLAHER: Was that a big thing when they started using it?

HAGYARD: Yes, it saved, uh, it was used nearly always in a prophylactic- -that is as a preventative medicine.

GALLAHER: Um-hm.

HAGYARD: Uh, and many of horse that would have died with, with tetanus 00:20:00that, uh, uh, were saved by giving the tetanus antitoxin after they received it, cut or a nail wound or a ----------(??).

GALLAHER: How did he--did he do a lot in surgery, of course, then you didn't have a lot of surgery because you didn't--couldn't have anesthetics?

HAGYARD: No, most of the surgery that was done was comparatively minor in nature, mostly neurectomies (??) and, uh, firing and operations on pasterns, withers and that sort of thing, but abdominal surgery or 00:21:00thoracic surgery were just out of the question--

GALLAHER: They wanted to stay out of horses. Uh, jumping a minute, do you think that firing is now as vital as it was back in your father's day? I remember they fired everything.

HAGYARD: There is just as much firing carried out today professionally as in his day. Uh, I've always thought that firing had its limitations, that poor conditions, such as splints, osselets--

GALLAHER: Growth ----------(??)--

HAGYARD: --ringbone, I've always thought it was indicated, and I've seen good results from it. But, the firing of knees and bowed tendons and 00:22:00sesamoid trouble, I always thought it was practically useless.

GALLAHER: Who were you father's best clients back in those days? (pause) We had the Wideners here.

HAGYARD: I would say going back--

GALLAHER: And James R. Keene was here along in there--

HAGYARD: Yeah, James R. Keene was one of their first big clients in Thoroughbred ranks. Uh--

GALLAHER: Did he ever tell you any stories about James R. Keene? Of course, I never knew James R. Keene.

HAGYARD: Not too many, but he told me quite a few about Major Daingerfield whom he was very fond--but of course, I knew Miss Elizabeth Daingerfield--

GALLAHER: Um-hm.

HAGYARD: --very, very well. And, uh, uh, we did, uh, practice for her wherever she was until--

GALLAHER: Well, she was all over--but I don't learn counties. What was Miss Elizabeth like? You know, I knew her just vaguely.

HAGYARD: Miss Elizabeth was a lovely person. Uh, one of the most kindly disposed persons I ever knew. Generous to a fault. She ran almost an 00:24:00old folks' home, particularly amongst, uh, uh, old colored men, maybe I should say black men now--

GALLAHER: You can say colored men.

HAGYARD: Old colored men who had been with her father and with her for many years. One of the best that she had was John Buckner, who was groom for Man o' War, who was Man o' War's groom from the time he was retired from racing until, uh, Harrie B. Scott became manager of Faraway Farm at which time Will Harbut--

GALLAHER: --took over. What was Miss Elizabeth like personally?

HAGYARD: A very sweet person. Uh, she not only took care of herself, but two sisters, her mother whose name was Elizabeth and Miss Julia, and the younger sister, Miss J. married a Mr. Van Winkle--

GALLAHER: Oh, that's right. She did, in Louisville.

HAGYARD: Uh, in Louisville. But, uh, after Miss Elizabeth went to 00:26:00Kingston, she bought property on Swigert Avenue, which she ------- ---(??) pairs and then she stood 'em on ----------(??) and the last ----------(??) and two other stallions whose names I can't remember, and, and she maintained a very comfortable, fine home for her two maiden sisters and herself. Her brother, Keene Daingerfield, lived on the same property in a house a hundred yards or so away from the main ----------(??) . ----------(??) stop the tape for ----------(??)--

GALLAHER: Well talk a little bit, and so you can tell me some about some of the people that we, that we don't have. We--that we've let get away from us, and we need to depend on you. Tell me about when you started in practice and what it was like. (pause) Let me put this on and make sure about this tape. Tape, are you doing? I never know what it's doing.

[Pause in recording.]

GALLAHER: Okay, since you graduated from college and started in here, first place did you practice veterinary medicine here ----------(??). You spent a year in Nashville, around Tennessee?

HAGYARD: No, no, I didn't. My father did.

GALLAHER: Your father did? Okay, and then did you just come right straight here?

HAGYARD: Well, actually, Mary Jane, I had done some practice--

GALLAHER: Anyway.

HAGYARD: --during the summers when I was home on vacation before I ever graduated. Uh, and by the time I graduated, I knew pretty well, uh, knew more than the average graduate, I would say, about diagnosis and treatment and the fact that I had been with my father so much of my 00:29:00life from my boyhood days, it made my college courses extremely easy for me as far as the veterinary medicine end of it, I should say. Physics and chemistry and botany and those things came as hard for me as they ever did. But, anyway, as I said, I graduated in 1924, and immediately entered practice with my father and Fraser Smith. There were three of us in practice then, and we now have fourteen veterinarians in our organization. Uh, I think this is indicative of 00:30:00the increase in the equine population as well as veterinary population.

GALLAHER: So the attention paid to the equine population?

HAGYARD: Right. When I graduated in 1924, there were 2921 registered Thoroughbred foals that year. In 1976, I don't know how many there were registered in '77, but it was--

[Interruption in recording.]

GALLAHER: How have things really changed in the fertility situation? We used to have a very low on ave-, I know they said it was because of pure-bred breeding and pure breeding strains that you--we didn't 00:31:00get more fertility. I suspect there's probably a lot of carelessness otherwise.

HAGYARD: A great deal of it was, and practices that were used then that were certainly detrimental to having a high percentage, pregnancy percentage, and not only pregnancy percentage but percentage of live foals.

GALLAHER: Did you ever think you'd live to see the day when everything was this sterile in breeding sheds as it is now? I watch the men putting on plastic gloves, I was absolutely astounded.

HAGYARD: Well, a lot of that's due to CEM.

GALLAHER: I know it is. But even so--

HAGYARD: It was last year.

GALLAHER: It's shaped 'em up.

HAGYARD: But it, uh, I would say since, at least since 1924, the, arguably, the breeding changed, has changed remarkably.

GALLAHER: Well, it used to be that you just brought a mare and the stallion came running and, and covered her and that was it, and it didn't make much difference about who was clean or what they'd done.

HAGYARD: ----------(??) they usually just haphazardly rubbed the mare's genitals with a sponge that wasn't too clean, and the same sponge might have been used to, uh, wash the stallion after service. Those changed, but those things changed very rapidly in the twenties and I never 00:33:00believed in an immaculate conception, though things have certainly cleaned up.

GALLAHER: (laughs) ----------(??). They absolutely have a lot of-- (laughs)--well, did you ever think you'd live to see a stallion that would be able to serve as many mares. I remember we used to start off with what they called a young horse, all they had--would book twenty- five mares, now, they're talking about a young horse taking forty-two.

HAGYARD: Yes, even the old days, as a matter of fact I think stallions, good stallions served more mares than they do now, had a larger book. I remember a stallion named ----------(??) who belonged to Mr. Charlie Browning (??) that had a book of fifty-five mares one year. He was one of the slowest horses serving, that I've ever seen, and how many hours 00:34:00wasted in the breeding shed waiting for him to complete the act.

GALLAHER: Did, did it all together.

HAGYARD: Did it all together. And, the Standardbreds, have always bred more mares to their stallions, than the, than the Thoroughbreds have. I can remember that, uh, Mr. Harry Burgoyne, he was manager of Walnut Hall Farm for many years, and his own farm adjacent to

Walnut Hall, he had a stallion named Walnut Hall to whom he bred to 115 mares in one season and got--ninety somehow didn't foal.

GALLAHER: It's amazing.

HAGYARD: Now, of course in those days, the breeding season of the 00:35:00Standardbreds started at the same time of the breeding of the Thoroughbreds, February 15th, but often lasted well up into August, and that was one reason that a stallion like Walnut Hall could be that ----------(??).

GALLAHER: How much business, proportionately, did, uh, Hagyard and Smith do between Standardbreds and Thoroughbreds--why has the balance changed, or is the same thing as it was early on?

HAGYARD: I would say that there always been more Thoroughbreds than Standardbreds. But personally I believe the Thoroughbreds have 00:36:00increased in number more than the Standardbreds. The saddle horse was very popular about the time I graduated and for many, many years before that. But, uh, showing Standard-, the raising and showing of saddle horses was strictly a hobby with no chance of making financial gain except in the sale of, of a good horse. Uh, on the other hand, uh, a 00:37:00person who only wants a Thoroughbred or a Standardbred always has an outside chance of making ends meet.

GALLAHER: You could race it or sell it. Well, which, which Standardbred farms did you all work with mainly?

HAGYARD: Wal-, Walnut Hall and Castleton, which was originally James R. Keene but ----------(??) purchased by David M. Look. But at that time, those were the two leading Standardbred farms in this area. There were a number of others scattered over the country, one of the largest was the Hanover Shoe Farms at Hanover, Pennsylvania.

GALLAHER: Does it go back that far? I didn't realize it--

HAGYARD: Oh, yeah. I don't remember just when Hanover Shoe Farms started, but, uh, I started going up there professionally in the early thirties and made several trips a year there, and this was one of the, and still is, one of the largest--

GALLAHER: Oh, absolutely.

HAGYARD: --Standardbred farms in the world.

GALLAHER: Which, uh, who did you know at Walnut Hall? As far as the owner?

HAGYARD: Uh, I never knew Mr. L.V. Harkness who was the original owner, but Harry Burgoyne was the manager there for many, many years and was 00:39:00one of the finest men I ever knew. His right-hand man at that time was Lawrence Brown who left Walnut Hall and became manager of Hanover Shoe Farm, and upon Mr. Burgoyne's death, he was prevailed upon by Dr. and Mrs. Edwards to return to Walnut Hall, and Mrs. Edwards was the daughter of Mr. Harkness, and he came back and managed Walnut Hall until he retired around nineteen fifty--around 1960.

GALLAHER: And that's about it, when we got back there, yeah.

HAGYARD: And, uh, he, by that time, he had his own farm on the Georgetown Pike and ran it very profitably for the few years that he had left. Dolly (??) died in 1962 or '63, I can't remember which, but he was an excellent horseman and a good man.

GALLAHER: What is it--has been the difference in the years of the attitude in aid and comfort between the Standardbred and the Thoroughbred people as far as the veterinary situation is concerned?

HAGYARD: Well, I would say that the relationship between the two has probably been quite pleasant. Uh, the racing dates here in Kentucky for the Thoroughbreds and for the Standardbreds have never interfered too much with each other, but the ----------(??). GALLAHER: Well, what about your difference on, on working with the Standardbreds and the Thoroughbreds, what would ----------(??) ? Is there a difference?

HAGYARD: I would say practically no difference.

GALLAHER: They pay well and, uh, give you help when you get to the farm and know what they want?

HAGYARD: Right. They--of course the conditions now are so different from when I started practice and in my father's day, had no modern conveniences--

GALLAHER: No.

HAGYARD: --in the stables. Many farms had no paved roadways really. We often had to ride horseback or ride in a horse and buggy after we had driven the car onto the farm--

GALLAHER: --it's far--

HAGYARD: --to get to some of the remote barns, and, uh, very few farms had foaling barns that even had a--

GALLAHER: --running water or anything--

HAGYARD: --no tech room or ----------(??) or a stove or anything there. And, we called out on a cold night into a foaling cage, it was not a 00:43:00very pleasant ----------(??). Things have changed greatly. Now, every foaling, foaling barn is equipped with a good tech room with heat, hot and cold running water, and it isn't such an ordeal anymore--

GALLAHER: Yes, it was.

HAGYARD: It was.

GALLAHER: It was. Tell me about Hagyard now with these training program for people from overseas. That has always fascinated me, and I wanted to do a story on that--tried before and never gotten it done, but you all have done such a tremendous job as the years have gone on about 00:44:00taking care of everybody that wants to come from overseas, around the world, really.

HAGYARD: As far back as I can remember, it has always been, always been the policy of my father and my grandfather to, uh, let the young veterinarian come in and observe our methods of practice. Uh, we've had, in my lifetime, we've had men from nearly every country in Europe and a great many from South America and from Canada--

GALLAHER: In my lifetime, too.

HAGYARD: --and from Australia and New Zealand, and even Japan.

GALLAHER: What arrangement do you all take them under? What sort of arrangement?

HAGYARD: Once in a while, we will get the man into better use who came and got his salary, just as a helper, and in a great many instances, he's paid nothing at all. He's here observing our methods, and it's sort of an internship for him.

GALLAHER: Does he ride with the vet and help?

HAGYARD: Yes. Uh, and usually rides with, uh, get the ----------(??) 00:46:00in the organization. There was a time when all of us did just about anything that came along, but more and more it's developed into--

GALLAHER: --it's ----------(??)--

HAGYARD: --specialization. Some of our men prefer the racetrack work, and certain others prefer the farm work which includes fertility, sterility and pediatrics and that sort of thing. But, uh--

GALLAHER: How do you select from the number of people who must apply to come and just ride with you all? I--still use the term, ride with--I 00:47:00guess you still use it?

HAGYARD: Right. Uh, it's usually--we currently request that some friends of ours--

GALLAHER: Somebody you know, um-hm.

HAGYARD: --who recommends this young man and would like to have him come to America and get some, some experience over here. Uh, however, there are a good many who drop in and might spend a few days for their spring vacation or something like that and go on.

GALLAHER: Always been work--

HAGYARD: We've never made any real restrictions--(clears throat)--except if one came, one of our employees who became associated with us, and for a good many years, we had a gentleman's agreement that in the event 00:48:00they didn't meet up with our requirements, so they didn't like us, if they were not to practice in Fayette County. In other words, I think that is a sound business method.

GALLAHER: Yeah.

HAGYARD: However, since I retired, I think that condition has been down away with.

GALLAHER: You really do? I can't believe it. (Hagyard whispers) I would think that would be a natural--

HAGYARD: So do I--(whispers)--

GALLAHER: You do. (Hagyard whispers) I know it. Well anyway--exactly. Thorn in the ----------(??). (Hagyard whispers). No, I don't, either--

HAGYARD: Now, that's off the record.

GALLAHER: No, that's--when you have in your training course from--for people from all over the world. How many would you estimate you all have had in and out? Have you any idea at all?

HAGYARD: Uh, my gosh, Mary Jane. I don't know. I would have to think that the--at least three or four hundred.

GALLAHER: Oh, it's been more than that.

HAGYARD: It probably has.

GALLAHER: Oh, I use to go out there ----------(??) (laughs). Over the years, I dated that many (laughs). Which ones turned out over the years the best? Now, this is international, national wide that you all worked with and sponsored.

HAGYARD: I would say two that have become very prominent in their native country are Dr. Robert Tyser (??) in Newmarket, England and Dr. 00:51:00Edward ----------(??) in France. Both of them have become outstanding veterinarians in their countries.

GALLAHER: They've also become leaders--

HAGYARD: Right.

GALLAHER: --teachers, leaders.

HAGYARD: Fred Daly (??), another outstanding veterinarian in England, kind of partner of Robert Tyser, uh, was over here but never spent the amount of time here that, uh, that either Tyser or ----------(??).

GALLAHER: How has-- [doorbell rings]

[Pause in recording.]

GALLAHER: And then you mentioned Jack Robbins in California.

HAGYARD: Jack Robbins, who spent a good deal of time with us, is now a leading veterinarian in California and has been remarkably successful, and he also has a son who is now a successful trainer. Another man that comes to my mind is Dr. Jarvis--

GALLAHER: Oh, is that--

HAGYARD: Buenos Aires, Argentina--

GALLAHER: That's right, yes.

HAGYARD: And he is an outstanding veterinarian there. Then, there's Harry Palmer who is one of the leading veterinarians in the Toronto area.

GALLAHER: (pause) Charlie, did you ever think you would get to the po-, we'd ever get to the point where you'd be able to see good internal surgery done? We went so many years, and we couldn't do anything inside, really.

HAGYARD: It seemed a long way off to me. They--but with the improvement in anesthesia and, uh, surgeries that we now have where operations can be done under aseptic conditions, the recovery from cesarean operations 00:54:00and abdominal, other abdominal operations involving ----------(??) testings and so on, uh, become--results have become very good.

GALLAHER: How--are we really able to do something about the twisted guts hanging where you used to just give up as soon as you found out that's what it was?

HAGYARD: Occasionally a decision is made to operate early enough before necrosis and gangrene--

GALLAHER: Set.

HAGYARD: --set in. Of course, it isn't--to use the word, the word twisted gut is really a misnomer.

GALLAHER: Well, it is, except it does express--

HAGYARD: It expresses--

GALLAHER: --what has happened in there is that all this mass had gotten 00:55:00all tangled up.

HAGYARD: But what usually happens is, that in the first throes of colic, the small intestine, probably distended with gas, the horse plops down and pushes the loop of the gut through a weak place in the mesentery, and that is just like a strangulated hernia. Circulation's cut off, and if it isn't reduced rapidly, necrosis and gangrene, peritonitis set in, and--

GALLAHER: And there you are.

HAGYARD: And--there was as time when we never thought of doing abdominal surgery. I'm, I don't mean to say this, I'm not being boastful when I say this, but I think I operated on the first ruptured bladder in a 00:56:00foal--

GALLAHER: Did you?

HAGYARD: --in 1940 or '41, it was shortly after Dr. McGee came with us from Montana, directly from college, and he was the anesthetist when we operated on this suckling, on this foal about three or four days old, John Wesley Myers. In those days, we had no sulfa drugs, no antibiotics, no penicillin, anything, and the foal did remarkably well for three days until peritonitis set in--

GALLAHER: And then he went--

HAGYARD: --and that was it. Since that time, since we've had penicillin and this sulfa drug, uh, we perform that operation several times each foaling season, and--

GALLAHER: And many of them live.

HAGYARD: --most of them come through remarkably well, and grow up being normal individuals and race.

GALLAHER: What about your examination of mares and your twin situation, of things. How has that changed over the years? I mean, we are now on follicles and things that drop and all these good things, but--

HAGYARD: Well, that started back about the, about the time I graduated. 00:58:00Uh, at auction sales anyway--well, I would say prior to the late twenties, there was no guarantee either to pregnancy or breeding out of the mare, breeding soundness. It was almost strictly caveat emptor, let the buyer beware. Since then, at every sale conducted by a major company, a veterinarian certificate must be presented stating whether the mare's in foal or if she is barren, there must be a certificate stating that she is sound for breeding. Uh, of course, this examination, the sales condition of the mares was not a, not the 00:59:00primary reason. We realized the importance of determining pregnancy at an early stage, and of the early examination of barren mares for genital infection or any defects that might appear, and I must give credit to the late Dr. W. W. -------------(??) for really starting this fertility work. The late Dr. Edward Caslick, who was many years a resident veterinarian at Claiborne and I would take, and I would take another doctor, ----------(??) Whitney and played some small, small part in pioneering this study. The increase in pregnancy percentage 01:00:00and decrease in genital infections and bacterial abortion and infected foals has been most gratifying.

GALLAHER: It's been amazing.

HAGYARD: I think I should be cautious--(pause)--you know naturally young men contribute new ideas and methods, I was one that had a few new ideas, some of which were no good.

GALLAHER: Which didn't work, but then there was a lot that did.

HAGYARD: It turned out pretty well. Uh, one innovation in the past several years was the rectal examination of the ovaries when a mare 01:01:00comes in heat to determine whether an ------------(??) follicle or egg sac was present and the degree of maturation of the--

[End of interview.]