Interview with Edward Teater, May 9, 2008

SMITH: Okay, testing, testing. That looks about right. Make sure I can see that we're recording. Okay. This is Kim Lady Smith and today is--what is today? May 9th.

TEATER: Right.

SMITH: Uh, 2008 and I'm at the home of Edward Teater and is this Nicholasville, is the address?

TEATER: Nicholasville

SMITH: Nicholasville, Kentucky doing an interview um, for the oral history on the horse industry in Kentucky for the University of Kentucky. And Mr. Teater, we'll get started, if you'd just tell me your full name and when and where you were born.

TEATER: Well, my full name is Edward Martin Teater, and I was born in Lexington, Kentucky in 1933.

SMITH: Okay. I'll write that down. What, what was the month and day?

TEATER: Uh, July 1st, 1933.

SMITH: Okay. A few years ago.

TEATER: Pardon me?

SMITH: That was a few years ago.

TEATER: Oh, yeah. (both laugh) Yeah, it's a, got that-- use your fingers a little bit there to, yeah.

SMITH: Well, uh, tell me, give me your parents' full names. Who, who were your parents?

TEATER: Well, my mother's name was uh, Carrie Teater and my father's name was Earl, and uh, I was, of course, born in Lexington. And my father was um, training at that time, we were living in Lexington at that time, when I was born, uh, for a Mr. uh, Robert Moreland, who had a big sales stable and things at the Red Mile uh, trotting track. And on 00:02:00the back side of it there, there was a, a big barn that he had and, and uh, my dad worked for him for, I think about a year and a half, and uh.

SMITH: Now, was he working with trotting horses or?

TEATER: No, they were all Saddlebred horses.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: Mr. Moreland had all Saddlebreds and 'course uh, if you read about Mr. Moreland uh, he had a lot of, of the great horses that he sold and uh, dealt in and showed and uh,-- I don't know exactly why my father had been--they, they were friends and uh, uh, and my dad was kind of in between jobs and things and uh, took a--we had landed up in Lexington, and when I, of course I was born here. And then we uh,-- kind of a curious thing about the Saddlebred business is that sometimes 00:03:00you move a lot. And I think I, it took me about uh,--well we lived in uh,--I went to school in Red Bank, New Jersey, Larchmont, New York, uh, Nashville, Tennessee, Harrodsburg, Kentucky. Uh, I think I went to seven schools to get through twelve grades. So, we were moving around quite a bit after leaving Lexington, you know.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: Yeah, went to Connecticut for a while and New York and New Jersey, and uh, we were in Illinois a while, at, at Bloomington. Uh, well this was prob-, probably, all these moves uh, were over a period 00:04:00of probably twenty years.

SMITH: Um-hm. And now you were born in '33, uh, did the Depression impact your father's work?

TEATER: Uh, no, but my father told me a lot about it. Uh, and it, I don't think that uh, -- my dad was very successful uh, from the time- -well, the year after I was born he won the, like the, with Belle Le Rose, he won the Five-Gaited Championship. So he was very successful and uh, a very, he was a very driven man about uh, and very cautious about his money.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And uh, when he was uh,--he was raised with a large family, and 00:05:00uh, I think there was eight children.

SMITH: Eight? I only had heard of the two--

TEATER: --and his mother and father, both, got kind of sick at the same time and 'course Lloyd, my uncle, was the oldest. And uh, when uh, my grandfather Teater got sick, they had a large farm, and he was a--this is how my dad and, and Lloyd got started with horses is that uh, Lem Teater was a kind of a, a cattle dealer, farmer, uh, uh, bought horses, you know, uh, riding horses and things like that, just trading. They'd, they'd get on horseback and ride through the different parts of the county, and they'd buy a couple of cows, they'd buy a horse, or they'd buy anything, you know, that--take it back and trade with it and 00:06:00sell it and, but when my grandfather uh, Lem Teater, got sick, uh, the bank uh, took the farm. And then he passed away and uh--

SMITH: --about when was--

TEATER: --Lloyd and my dad, they had to kind a go to work uh, to help, kind a with the ch-- other children, the younger children, you know.

SMITH: Were they still on the farm at that point ----------(??)

TEATER: No, they had moved to Crab Orchard then. And uh, they had what they called the Crab Orchard Inn there, which was a, where they had springs and a golf course, and people would come down from Chicago and, you know, go to the springs and the water and--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --things like that. And uh, but that's how that they kind 00:07:00of got, through my grandfather, they got started with horses, liking horses, 'cause they would take them home and groom them and, you know, and teach them to ride real nice and then sell them, you know.

SMITH: Now, I know that your dad and Lloyd and I think Jay--

TEATER: --um-hm, yes, um-hm--

SMITH: --were interested in horses, what about the other siblings? Did they get involved in the business?

TEATER: Well, uh, there was one other boy and he died as a infant, got, very young. And uh, let's see, there was, I'm trying to think how many sisters, there's, there was Ida and Bess, Floss and Ann. I think that's it.

SMITH: Was your father one of the oldest?

TEATER: Yeah, Lloyd was the oldest and my dad was second oldest, um-hm. 00:08:00And uh.

SMITH: So about how old were they when your, their gran-, when your grandfather died?

TEATER: Well uh, when they lost the farm there and everything, I think they were like uh, fifteen, sixteen--

SMITH: --oh--

TEATER: --like that.

SMITH: Very young.

TEATER: And then they moved to Crab Orchard and they kind of worked with horses and--

SMITH: --hmm--

TEATER: --things like that.

SMITH: Now, was their mother still alive?

TEATER: She was at that time, yes.

SMITH: And she moved to Crab Orchard as well?

TEATER: Uh-huh.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: And Mr. Teater was still alive. My grandfather was still alive, but very ill.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: And uh, they went through that and uh, so I guess that I was get-- well, I got a kind of ahead of myself, but that I was trying to 00:09:00say why that my father was so driven and uh,--

SMITH: --hmm--

TEATER: --uh, very uh, frugal with his money, you know, and, and uh, wanted to have things, but uh, he wouldn't buy it unless he had the money for it, you know, he was old time.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And uh, didn't like to owe anybody any money. And he always had kind of a fear about that, and things.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: But that's uh, that's where my dad bet, met my mother, was in, was in Crab Orchard.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And uh, funny stories about when they first, uh, they started dating, and my uh, grandfather on my mother's side was a, a very hard- 00:10:00shell Baptist. And uh, one of the finest men I ever knew, and uh, uh, I used to stay the summers at their, at their farm. When my mother would go on the horse show circuit with my father, why, she'd drop the two youngest boys my, my middle brother, Lou--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --and myself off there and we'd spend the whole summer there and just loved it, you know, we couldn't wait to get there and. But uh, I remember one story my dad, and my mother told me about it, he came over to pick her up one time to go out on a date, and he had a, a, a bike, you know, a double seat bike? He had a horse hooked up to it, went over there to get her, and my grandfather, my mother's father, wouldn't let her go, said that wasn't ladylike at all, to be riding in a bike 00:11:00like that, you know. --(Smith laughs)-- So my dad had to get a little carriage of some kind the, the next time he picked her up, you know.

SMITH: Oh, my.

TEATER: So, uh--

SMITH: --hmm.

TEATER: But, but he never approved of, of my father, my mother's father, until after they got married. They, they ran off and got married.

SMITH: Oh really.

TEATER: They went to uh, they went to Corbin, Kentucky.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And he was showing a gray mare there that he had bought, and Miss Nola Minton was there at that show. They didn't have any money, but they had planned to get, go to Corbin, and they were gonna get married there, which they did, without her father's blessing, you know. And uh, so they got, got married there and my dad showed this 00:12:00gray mare and won the gaited stake at Corbin. And uh, uh, then they, th-- right after that my grandfather just took my dad in, you know, everything was great, you know, it just, he didn't approve of it, but after they got married, everything was just fine. He was.

SMITH: Do you know why he didn't approve?

TEATER: I, I just didn't think, think he wanted his daughter to get married. --(laughs)--

SMITH: That, that's true in a lot of cases.

TEATER: Yeah.

SMITH: Now, at that time, what was your, was your dad making a living as a?

TEATER: Well, he sold that mare and they, they stayed in Corbin for a little while, and then they went back to Crab Orchard.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: And everything was fine as far as the marriage went and everything, and then Mr. Moreland uh, was a, a big name in the horse 00:13:00business at that time.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And uh, was, you know, he was like a god, you know.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: He was the man, had the biggest stable and the biggest customers and the best horses and-- and Mr. Moreland had seen my dad ride at Harrodsburg one t-,--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --during the season there. And he went over to him and he said, "Young man," said, "if you'd ever want a job," said uh, "you come see me." And my dad had never been out of Crab Orchard. So the state fair was on at Louisville.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: So, he, he got a, by himself, left mother at home, and he got on a train and went to Louisville. And then after he got there, he said, 00:14:00"I wonder if that man uh, Mr. Moreland would uh, is gonna remember me," you know. --(laughs)-- He, he needed a job, you know. And uh, said he walked up and introduced himself to Mr. Moreland. He said, "Oh yeah," said, "I, I remember you." He said, "Well, I, I'm, I'm looking for that job you said I could have." And said he reached in his pocket, pulled out a telegram and he said uh, "A fellow in Chicago's got a big livery stable and wants, wants a man." Said, "You can go up there and try out." And so my mother and dad got together and they uh, they took a train, which was their first trip out of, out of Kentucky.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And took a train to Chicago. And they got off the train, and it uh, it was at the stockyards where this place was, on Halsted Street, and this of course was during Prohibition.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: And uh, said they walked in there and, I can't remember the fellow's name that he worked for there at Chicago.

SMITH: Is that Newgass?

TEATER: Yes.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: And said that, mother went over and sat on a bench, and said that he introduced himself to mister whatever his name is, Newgass?

SMITH: Newgass, yeah.

TEATER: Newgass. And he said, "Well", he said uh, "just ride some of 00:16:00these horses and let me see you ride." And said he rode all morning long, all afternoon long, and uh, mother's still sitting on the bench, you know. And she said uh, finally after the day was over, and he walked up to him and said, "Well, what do you think?" He said, "Have I got a job?" He said, "I think I can use you," you know --(laughs)--. And I don't know, the, the salary is very nominal and everything, and so they, I don't know if I should tell this story or not, but its, it's a funny story. So, you know, all these speakeasies were up and down uh, Halsted Street and it was kind of a little flimsy kind of a area, you know, and so anyways, they uh, said they had to find a place to 00:17:00stay. And said there's a streetcar, they got on a streetcar, rode up, out up Halsted Street just a little ways and got off and looked around, and they saw a room for rent, you know.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: So they knocked on the door and a lady gave 'em the room up there. Said it had a little kitchen in it, and--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --and uh, basically just one room. And so they stayed there. And my mother told this story, I, said that my father came home from work one day, and she said, said, "I don't know about this place where we're staying." He said, "Wh-what's the matter?" And said it's a nice clean place, you know, run, people are real nice and everything, and 00:18:00uh, said that, said, "Well, a lot of men come in here during the day." And uh, dad said, "Well, what do you mean a lot of men come in here?" Said, "They come in here," said, "all the time." So, anyways, found out that it was a house of prostitution.

SMITH: Oh. --(both laugh)--

TEATER: But they lived there anyway. --(both laugh)--because the room was so cheap--

SMITH: --oh shoot--

TEATER: --so they stayed there and uh, but anyways if they'd go some place, they could not pay for the room. They went home for Christmas that year and--

SMITH: --oh, okay--

TEATER: --they didn't have to pay for the room while were they go--, or while they were gone, --(laughs)-- so when they came back, why they could still got, had the room. --(both laugh)--

SMITH: ----------(??)

TEATER: Sa-, said the lady that ran it was real nice to mo-, my mother, you know.

SMITH: Yeah

TEATER: So.

SMITH: Oh, that'd be quite an experience.

TEATER: Yeah.

SMITH: That, was that their first time out of Kentucky?

TEATER: First time, yeah.

SMITH: Okay. Now there was one thing that uh, when I was reading about this, it said that he, when your dad was in Chicago he was twenty years old and he was a dealer's rider? What does that mean? I've not heard--

TEATER: --well--

SMITH: --that term.

TEATER: I, my understanding of what I, my father told me is that uh, this fellow de-, dealt in, in park horses, to ride through the park there in Chicago.

SMITH: Oh, okay.

TEATER: And uh, the main thing was to have those horses exercised.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: You, he said you'd just start working horses, and you'd work all day long. And said you'd never work, you know, you'd just keep going from one horse to the next--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --and you'd exercise them and keep them fit for-- and then people would buy them and keep them there to go ride in the parks and--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --just to, general riding purposes, you know.

SMITH: So he wasn't training Saddlebreds there?

TEATER: Well uh, I think they were more Saddlebred type than--

SMITH: --okay--

TEATER: --than any other thing, though.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: Uh, but I think they uh, I think he enjoyed that, you know, he had--well see, he had a lot of horses for a, a fellow named uh, not a lot of horses, but he had about six show horses for a fellow name Monty Canovan.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: And he was a, well he was a, he was kind of a gangster fellow.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And uh, he had uh--my dad said he had these two dogs. One was a German police dog, and one was a Doberman Pinscher, and they said those two dogs stayed with him all the time.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: He didn't go any place, and uh, I guess he was a real nice fellow. And, anyways, they'd, there'd be, everybody wanted to go to lunch, you know, times were pretty tough and--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --when it--he'd always come in, watch a few horses work, and then he'd take my dad to lunch, you know. And there'd always be seven or eight guys standing around there, and he'd take four or five of them, go, all go to lunch, you know.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And he said one day, one guy's kind of a loud mouth, you know, and didn't particularly like him--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --and uh, he told that uh, the Doberman Pinscher, told him, said uh, "don't let him move." And said they went to lunch, came back, said that guy is still sitting on the trunk, that dog still watching him.

SMITH: Oh.

TEATER: But, and he was a, uh, had nicer Saddlebreds and they showed them and things.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And I know my mother was telling me about, that uh, that she didn't like to be around him, you know, but he always would want them to come over for dinner at night, you know.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And said he had a real nice, beautiful, third floor uh, beautiful--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --apartment, you know. And said they had a beautiful meal and, and uh, and then this guy all at once has a real--finds this girlfriend, real good looking girl. And nobody else can work the, these two dogs, but him.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And he taught the girl how to, to work the dogs.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: And about six months later uh, he came down out of his apartment and they, they shot him and killed him--

SMITH: --Mr.--

TEATER: --as he was getting in--

SMITH: --Canovan ?--

TEATER: -- his car. And uh, but before that, my dad said that uh, th-, the fellow that trained the German police dog--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --was from Germany. And he came over to see this dog, and said that dog, when his, that dog saw him, my dad said that dog almost cried. Said it was the most unbelievable, said he came to the barn and, and uh, Mr. Canovan was there with the two dogs--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --and said this German police dog just couldn't get enough of him, you know. And he taught, he did, the dog wanted him to train him. And he did it all in German, spoke to him in German--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --and said he did everything that he'd do in English.

SMITH: Huh. In German.

TEATER: And you know Rin Tin Tin--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --at the time was the big thing, you know, and this Canovan fellow, he said that he would put his dog, the German Shepherd dog against Rin Tin Tin and would bet $10,000-- no hand signals, all voice command--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --that his dog could outdo Rin Tin Tin. --(laughs)-- The guy 00:25:00wouldn't take him up on it. So that was kind of a, a.

SMITH: So Mr. Canovan got shot?

TEATER: Pardon me?

SMITH: Mr. Canovan was killed?

TEATER: Yes. Yeah, and the girl or the dogs were never seen again.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: But see, some other gangsters got him killed.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And they sent that girl to, that girl was owned by the, the other gangsters.

SMITH: Ah.

TEATER: That's what my dad always thought.

SMITH: Gee.

TEATER: Because--

SMITH: --sounds like a dangerous place to live.

TEATER: Yeah, it was pretty--they used to go up to Connecticut during the, in the summer.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And uh, there was a couple Irish kids that hung around the stable all the time. And dad got to know them real well, they were just, just poor little old Irish boys, you know, and, you know, they were like eleven, twelve years old.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: They'd do anything dad asked them to do, they'd, whatever it was they'd do it, you know. And uh, so, dad kind of felt sorry for them, told my mother, said, "We'll go up in Connecticut this, this summer," said, "but let's, let's uh, let those two boys go up there for a little while," you know--

SMITH: --hmm--

TEATER: --"a week and--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --get, get out of here". So they di-, he did, took them up there. Well, said two weeks went by and said they never said anything about going home --(both laugh)--. Mother was feeding them and they, you know, and uh, they did, 'course they didn't want to go home. So he, 'how am I gonna get rid of them?' --(Smith laughs)-- And he had a black man working for him and he said, "We gotta get rid of these boys," says, "we're gonna scare them tonight." And they uh, they took 00:27:00a, put a white sheet on them, and then they, they got a string and they put on the

shade--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --didn't have air condition then, you know, windows open.

SMITH: Yeah.

TEATER: And that, that black guy in that sheet, he'd get a hold of that string and he'd pull the shade down and then let back up, pull it down a little bit and said those boys, they wanted to go home --(both laugh)-- the next morning.

SMITH: That's pretty clever.

TEATER: But, why I told you that, is that we were at, at the Chicago International Horse Show one year. And uh, it was like four o'clock in the morning. We were gonna go out and have some breakfast, you know--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --across the street. That's a rough area right in there.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: Went over to this little old place to have breakfast right across the street--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --from the Stockyard Inn's there, and we sat at the table way 00:28:00over in the corner, my dad and I. There was a great big uh, policeman, and I, I told my dad, I said, "That, that policeman keeps looking, looking at us." "Ah", he said, "I don't' care." Dad, he wouldn't even look at him, you know. We kept eating and eating, got through and that policeman just, he, I mean it was very obvious he was--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --you know. I said, "Well, he thinks we're somebody that, he's gonna arrest us." He kept looking at my dad mainly. I said, "Well, he's gonna arrest him." And here he came, walking over to the table. And he said, "Are you Earl Teater?" And my dad said, "Yeah, I'm Earl Teater." And this was one of those Irish boys.

SMITH: Oh.

TEATER: And, oh, they had a big reunion and--

SMITH: --uh--

TEATER: --uh, oh, he walked, he walked us back over to the show grounds and everything. SMITH: --(laughs)--, --aw--

TEATER: --so--

SMITH: That's a good story. Hmm.

TEATER: But there was a--those were kind of funny stories, I thought and--

SMITH: --yeah--

TEATER: --I've always enjoyed them, you know. My dad could tell them real well.

SMITH: Oh, I imagine.

TEATER: Yeah.

SMITH: I imagine, but yeah, I can imagine going to Chicago at that time, um, wi--, with the work that he was doing, had to be just fascinating, very different.

TEATER: Well, then the next year we went up there, well, we drove all night long and got in there late at night and there's a great big policeman had his hand up like this, stopped him. And my dad rolled the window down and told him to get out of the way, gonna run over him if he didn't get out of the way. That big cop come at him, went like 00:30:00that, and it was the other boy -- (both laugh)--.

SMITH: And I bet he let your dad go through.

TEATER: So they visited and talked.

SMITH: Yeah. Hmm. You mentioned someone, um, a little while back, uh, that I've heard a little bit about, um, Nola Minton--

TEATER: --um-hm--

SMITH: --Nola Minton, that, now did your dad work with her?

TEATER: No.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: No, he did not.

SMITH: Okay. But she was down in that Corbin area, that's where Hickory Minton?

TEATER: Yes. Uh-huh

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: Corbin, Barbourville and--

SMITH: --yeah--

TEATER: --you know, right along in there.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: She was a very, very fine lady.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: I knew her quite well.

SMITH: Now I heard from, I think it was Walt Robertson told me that that was a pretty important farm at one time.

TEATER: Oh my goodness, yes.

SMITH: Um-hm. Um-hm

TEATER: One of the big ones, you know.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And uh, bred a lot of great horses and things.

SMITH: Hmm. So, when your dad, um, came back from Chicago, where did he work after that? Do you remember? Or when did he come back to Lexington?

TEATER: When?

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: Oh it's been-- it was a long time before we came back to Lexington.

SMITH: Oh, okay, oh that--okay.

TEATER: Yeah. Lets' see, we went to uh--the most I remember is that I was pretty young, 'course in Chicago there, that area, era there, I wasn't even born--

SMITH: --right--

TEATER: --you know. And my older brother was born in, in uh, Chicago when they worked there. And uh, he worked for Mr. Kaiser there for a while. Mr. Kaiser died, had a, was a very young man, had a heart attack and died.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: And uh, the first really I remember about horses and things and, 00:32:00and uh, was probably uh, in New York. And I was like in the third, fourth grades there--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --you know. And uh, he worked for uh, Mrs. Albee.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And that was always, I mean he, he really enjoyed working there.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: and

SMITH: When did you start working with the horses, being around the horses? When did you first ride a horse? If you remember that.

TEATER: Well uh, wh-, when we left New York, we bought a farm in 00:33:00Harrodsburg, Kentucky.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: And uh, that was during the Second World War, of course, nineteen forty, I think we moved to Harrodsburg in '43.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: And uh, that's when I ha--, my dad had a public training stable there.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: And, so, consequently it wasn't privately owned and I got to, you know, participate a little more--

SMITH: --okay--

TEATER: --with horses. And uh, uh--

SMITH: --did you want to?

TEATER: Oh, yeah, yeah, I had a pony all my life and, uh you know, I'd ride and drive her and, you know.

SMITH: Did you go with your dad to shows to?

TEATER: Yeah, yeah. Uh, I started riding the first, my first Saddlebred that I rode was in, uh, was a little under two mare. Well, she was under fifteen hands; they had, used to have fifteen hand classes.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And you couldn't be over fifteen hands and you could show in this class, and uh, that was my first uh, lessons that I had was on that particular mare, and I showed her one time at, at Louisville.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: And then we went to work for uh, Mr. Ward--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --Truman Ward in Nashville, and my dad bought a pony for my 00:35:00middle brother, Louis. And I, and uh, they used to show the, the fourteen hand ponies, large ponies, used to show them under saddle and then they'd show them in harness.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And, so my, Lou would always show them in harness, and I would ri-, do the riding, you know, part. And uh, and uh, he bought this pony from a man there in Tennessee and didn't give a lot of money for it. I think, I think, if I'm not mistaken, he gave $400.00 for the pony. And the pony had a reputation of run-, running off with a rider, but dad liked the pony, he bought it, and Mr. Ward was kind enough to, that,--dad said, "I, you know, bought it for my sons" and then--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --he said, "Why sure, go ahead and do that," you know, and--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --let him have a stall there, right there at Maryland Farm.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And uh, so we started showing the Tennessee circuit, which was a big uh, pony circuit, you know. It had fifteen, twenty ponies in the one night show, gaited ponies and walk-trot ponies and, you know, it was a big thing. And uh, we did real well and then we took it to Louisville, and I won the five-gaited pony championship in--

SMITH: --do you remember what year that--

TEATER: --1944, I believe. And the pony's name was Step'N Fetchit.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: And uh, then we took a job uh, Miss Van Lennep, or Frances Dodge, uh, wanted to hire my dad because Wallace Bailey had passed away 00:37:00there. He was the head trainer.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And uh, Mr., Mr. Ward could have held my dad to--he had a, a long term contract with Mr. Ward. And my dad went to Mr. Ward and told him, said, "You know, these people really would like to hire me. I'll stick with my contract, but," said, and uh, Mr. Ward said, "Earl", he said, "you're gonna get a job that no one's gonna get very often," said, "you'd better take it." And he released him out of this contract, you know, so.

SMITH: Now, was Dodge Stables established at that point?

TEATER: Oh, it had been in business for a long time.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: Uh, I'd expect uh, oh I expect that she'd been in business maybe 00:38:00ten years in the Saddlebred business--

SMITH: --okay--

TEATER: --before my dad went to work there.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: Maybe a little longer. Ten years sounds about right, though, just from what I've heard.

SMITH: Um-hm. ----------(??)

TEATER: And so we, we moved up there. One of the,--(laughs)-- I'll tell you a little story about, I told you about my first time I showed at Louisville was Step'N Fetchit and won and so when we moved up to uh, Rochester, Michigan, uh, we decided that we should sell the pony, you know it's a private job. And uh, so my dad and I came down on the train and brought Step'N Fetchit down to the Tattersall sale.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And uh, and of course I was like, uh, let's see, I was probably twelve--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --at this time. And uh, I never will forget going to the sale and George Swinebroad was the king auctioneer of, you know.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: He sold horses at Keeneland for years, and he's just a great auctioneer. And uh, I never will forget uh, my dad went to Mr. Swinebroad and uh, George'd say, "What you selling, Earl?" And he said, "Well, I'm selling a pony, good one," said, "won at Louisville this year". Said, "How much you gotta have for it?" "Why, I guess if can't get a thousand dollars for him", said, "It'd be bad." I'm sitting, I'm 00:40:00just standing there, you know, just, boy this giant of a man, you know, shook his hand and everything, and he's gonna sell my pony, you know. So I got on the pony and rode it into the sales ring and I was just riding as hard as I could ride, and I was listening to the chant, you know, of the auctioneer and they got up to seven hundred, ---------(??) pretty soon they hit a thousand dollars. And when they hit a thousand dollars, for some unknown reason, I burst out laughing. I laughed, I just couldn't get over it, that we got a thousand dollars. And George Swinebroad, he had to quit auctioneering. He got to laughing at me. --(both laugh)-- So uh, we got the pony sold.

SMITH: For a thousand dollars.

TEATER: Well, I think it brought a thousand fifty.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: Yeah, so we did all right.

SMITH: Yeah.

TEATER: And uh.

SMITH: Was that your first time at a sale? --[pause]-- Or your first memory of a sale?

TEATER: Yes, I would say that was probably my first time, at Tattersalls.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: Yeah. That was probably in '45, 1945.

SMITH: Was your dad involved in selling horses?

TEATER: Oh, yes, yes.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: He was a tremendous salesman.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: Uh, he, why he was such a good salesman, if you liked horses, he loved you. You know, I mean if you talked about baseball or something--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --he'd just, he'd get up and walk in the other room.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: Uh, you know, not that quickly, but if you just kept talking about--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --if you didn't talk about horses he'd--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --get up and walk, just, he just, anybody that liked horses he just loved them.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: And I think that's what made him a good salesman.

SMITH: Yeah.

TEATER: You know, if they really liked horses, he liked them first--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --then, you know. And he'd always want to sell the nicest horse for what they could afford, you know.

SMITH: Hmm. Um-hm.

TEATER: And uh, no he'd, he'd spend hours with people, you know, just, and enjoyed it, you know.

SMITH: And did he have a lot of his own horses that he sold over the years?

TEATER: No, dad was never a big dealer.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: Um, he, he always kept, you know, he'd keep three or four broodmares and--

SMITH: --um-hm.

TEATER: Mainly broodmares. He'd keep some broodmares and he'd, he'd buy a horse, and see it and like it and, you know, train it a little bit 00:43:00and sell it and.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: Uh.

SMITH: What did he like most about working with horses? What do you think he liked--

TEATER: --pardon me?

SMITH: What do you think he liked doing the most with horses? What, what part of working with horses did he enjoy the most?

TEATER: Oh, he loved to ride a horse, yeah. He, he loved uh, he loved uh, uh, he loved the road horses terribly bad. Yeah, but he uh, -- my mother just did not like him doing it. And uh, he broke his leg real, real bad.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: He was working for Mr. Alexander up in, in Bloomington, Illinois. And they had a bunch of road horses and things, uh, he broke his leg, a compound fractured leg, you know, and uh, he was off for, well he didn't ride for about six or eight months.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: And my mother just didn't like it, and so--but he really liked the road horses, he really liked ----------(??).

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: But ga--, of course gaited horses was, five-gaited horse was his, what he really loved--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --the most.

SMITH: Well he was very successful at it.

TEATER: Pardon me?

SMITH: He was very successful.

TEATER: Oh, my goodness, yes.

SMITH: Absolutely. Um, okay, so he came to Dodge Stables, I think I, I have it here, in 1945, was about the time period.

TEATER: And we went uh, we were in Michigan, at Rochester, uh, one of the finest facilities I've ever, we've ever been to.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: And, but, my, my dad didn't like Michigan. He just didn't like- -there was nobody to talk to because they all worked with uh,--where we 00:45:00lived everybody around us worked at some kind of a car plant, you know. Uh, and, but, there wasn't very many visitors up there because it's a, it was kind of a cold kind of a place--.

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --beautiful place, but it was, if you wanted to go to the stable--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --they had it where that you stop and the guards would ask you, "where-- what do you want?" you know.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: "Well, I'm going, I want to see, I'm going down to the Saddle Horse barn to see Earl Teater". "Now, you wait right here. What's your name?" They'd write your name down, what time it was, get your license plate number, then go back in and call my dad, say, "So and so from, so and so is here--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --do you want them in?" Dad said, "Yeah let them in," you know. --(both laugh)-- And, and so it was kind of a cold place for my dad 00:46:00because he'd never been used to anything like that-

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --the security was very tight.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And uh, they were pretty strict about it. And, I mean if, if I would go out, which I think I probably was at that barn maybe four or five times in three years.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: It was just kind of different, you know.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: A beautiful facility, though.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: All steam heat, beautiful indoor arena.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: Uh, just any-- everything that you'd ever think that a barn have, it had.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: You know. Um, and there was three barns there. They were all hooked together.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: This barn was the Saddle Horse barn. And in the front there was an office, and there was an office behind that for your secretary.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And then over on this side of--they had the lounge area about this size, you know.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And on this side, there was a Dutch door there, at the end.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And, that was for the Saddle Horses, and in there, there was a man that worked in there, in that room. You could take a, you could walk up there and say, "I need a new bridle". That guy would get you a new bridle and give it to you. "I need a new pair of boots," hand you a new pair of boots. Anything that you wanted, blankets, anything that pertained to a horse, Saddlebred horse, if you wanted a new set of harness, you'd give the old harness in and they'd give you a new harness.

SMITH: Now, that sounds very unusual for that--

TEATER: --It just--

SMITH: --time period.-

TEATER: Oh it, it was unbelievable. And then each, each place had a 00:48:00blacksmith shop that was just out of this world, at the end of the barn, right inside the barn--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --and it was all wood flooring, beautiful cabinets, forges, everything it takes to shoe a horse, and there's thirty-two stalls in it. But, then you, everything was enclosed and there was a, uh, like a, a walkway--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --which was probably twenty-five feet wide and maybe a hundred foot, all enclosed, all heated.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: That'd go to the, to the Hackney barn.

SMITH: Huh.

TEATER: The Hackney barn was just like the Saddle Horse barn, office at the front, office for a secretary, lounge area.

SMITH: How is--

TEATER: --the man that worked there that-- anything that the Hackneys needed--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --would get you--

SMITH: How is--

TEATER: --blacksmith shop there, that--then you'd go from that barn into the arena. And then if you went on the other side of the arena, it had a entrance on the other side, that was for the Shetland ponies.

SMITH: Oh.

TEATER: They had the same thing, thirty-two stalls, and each one had their own trainer.

SMITH: Huh. How is something like that funded? I mean how--

TEATER: Pardon me?

SMITH: How is something like that funded? I mean, who--

TEATER: --Well, Dod - -

SMITH: --everybody rented the space?

TEATER: Dodge automobiles.

SMITH: Oh, it was a Dodge. Okay.

TEATER: See, John Dodge uh, was Frances Dodge's father, who is known as uh, Mrs. Van Lennep, married Fred Van Lennep.

SMITH: Right.

TEATER: And, that's where the, the money came from.

SMITH: Okay. Okay. So how long did you, were you all up there?

TEATER: Three years.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: And then they bought a farm down here called Castleton Farm.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: I know you've seen it probably, it--

SMITH: --um-hm.

TEATER: It's on Iron Works Road there. It's not far from the Horse Park.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: The Horse Park, you're going over towards Paris Pike.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: That's Iron Works that the Horse Park's on. Well, if you go towards Paris Pike, you'd go right past it. It's on Iron Works.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: And uh, they bought that for their Standardbreds. And--

SMITH: --okay--

TEATER: --uh, at, my dad said to her at the time, said, "Now", said, "when are you gonna move me?" And uh, she said, "Well"--she wanted to build the same facility down here, uh, you know, have a big indoor 00:51:00arena, and everything just like they had up there. But was just gonna move the Saddlebred horses and so dad said, "Well, I'll think about that." So uh, you couldn't get them to make a move, and he was, he, he'd had it. He just didn't like it anymore up here. 'Cause we'd leave in a, a-- he would leave like in the middle of May, and he'd go to Devon, which was the latter part of May, rather.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: Latter part of May. And then he'd ship from Devon down to the round barn, down here at, at Lexington.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And he'd show out of there. He wouldn't, he wouldn't go back-- (laughs)--. He didn't want to go back. So, you know, he got a chance to 00:52:00see the farm and everything when he came down that summer, Castleton.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And so that winter he came back home and uh, he said, "Well", he said, "I'm gonna find another job if you don't move me." And I said, she, he said "I mean now."

SMITH: Oh.

TEATER: And that's it. Said, "Okay, well, there's a barn down there," said, "you're not gonna like it" and everything, but that was at the Dodge Stables at, at Castleton, which they, well, dad worked for them for about thirty-one or thirty-two years, see. So twenty-seven of them were down here, twenty-eight of them were down here.

SMITH: Okay. Okay. All right. I guess I've been confused. I didn't realize that, uh, he worked at Dodge Stables in Michigan and then moved down here.

TEATER: Yeah.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: Yeah.

SMITH: Uh, was it, so was it still affiliated with the, the parent stable?

TEATER: Oh yeah, same people.

SMITH: Same people, okay.

TEATER: Yeah.

SMITH: Okay. Um, so, he came back to Kentucky then, what, in '48, '49?

TEATER: Came back in '48.

SMITH: Okay. Okay. All right, let's see, where I got my--

TEATER: --let me see. Forty-five. Yeah.

SMITH: So, when he first, when he was training uh, Wing Commander, he was in Michigan? Okay.

TEATER: That was one of the few times I went out there is that, uh, you know, that I saw Wing Commander. The first time I ever saw him, he was a three year old.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: Uh, that they had started racking. And, well, let's see. He 00:54:00might have been a, he might have been a late two year old when I saw him. Uh, and that was in Michigan.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And dad opened the door and said, "Here's a nice kind of a colt", you know, said, "Looks like he might be all right," you know, just--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --said, "if he can learn to rack real good," said, "he, he might make a nice horse." And uh, my dad, well, that's what, just the way my dad talked, I mean if he thought one was a world beater, you'd think, well he's gonna make a nice horse. And that meant, that meant quite a bit to him, is nice horse, so.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: Uh, that was the first time that I ever saw him. Now, he was little, thin kind of a colt.

SMITH: Um-hm. Um, now, he won, he won his first--When did Wing 00:55:00Commander win his first five-gaited? Is that, I've got down here '47, but I think that's early.

TEATER: Well, he was born in forty,'43, --(whispers '44)--

SMITH: Well, I can look that up.

TEATER: I, I'm lost there.

SMITH: Yeah, I'll, I'll look that up, 'cause I think my notes are, may be a little off here. But, uh, but when he won the five-gaited, your dad was still in Michigan?

TEATER: I don't think so.

SMITH: You thought he'd come back.

TEATER: He would have been the three year old, uh, like if we went up there in January, he was, he was gonna be a three year old that year.

SMITH: Okay. Okay.

TEATER: That'd been '48.

SMITH: When did your dad begin to think he was really going to be a special horse? Remember him talking about him?

TEATER: Well, he, I can remember him always saying that he, he used his legs like no other horse he ever saw. You know, his motion was different from any horse he'd ever been around.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And so I think he knew that he had something--usually a horse that goes that high, sometimes not a very slick racking horse, 'cause they go with so much motion they, they can't get enough speed, you know. And they, it was just unusual that with his motion, that he was so fast.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: And uh, which made him a great horse, you know. We had a mare one time, could really use her legs. My dad bought uh, her for Dodge 00:57:00Stables.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And uh, her name was Belle of the Dell. And she was showing in harness when we bought her.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And he thought she might make a walk-trot horse or a gaited horse, one of the two, you know. And of course, knowing dad, he was going the gaited route, you know. And she had been gaited I guess before he bought her.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: But they were showing her harness. Mo-, real, a lot of motion, I mean way high motion, things like that, and could slow-gait as, as pretty as you saw any other horse, but the motion was so high, she couldn't rack fast enough to be a gaited horse, you know.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: So, but she turned out to be a real, uh, she win, I think she won two years down at Louisville, the Three-Gaited World's Championship.

SMITH: Um-hm. Hmm

TEATER: But she could just, she just couldn't rack fast, you know.

SMITH: But Wing Commander could do both.

TEATER: Yeah. Yeah. He, he was quite a, quite a horse. You know we were talking about uh, participation that we used to have from our grass roots people and when we had horse shows, you know, and things, people would, you know, kind of a--well, I can remember, and I never will forget, I got out of the service in fifty fi-, September of '55, and I went to the International show in '55, and I think that was one 00:59:00of Wing Commander's last shows, if I'm not mis-,-----------(??). But I couldn't get over the, the, it, it was almost like a movie star, Wing Commander was you know. Uh, reporters uh, back at the barn area, uh, you, you, you couldn't hardly walk, you know, just people wanting, staring, looking down the aisle to see Wing Commander, you know. And it was, and it was the most breathtaking uh, show, or an event I'll say, that I ever saw. Uh, I got up there, and it was Saturday night, and you know that's when they have all the finals and everything. And uh, the newspapers, articles were just all over the newspaper about Wing Commander gonna show that night, you know. Well I got down to the 01:00:00stable area, and I could just barely get to, you know I finally, you know, kind of just kept going through people. And uh, well, when the gaited class got ready to, you had to get ready, warm up. There wasn't hardly a place to warm up in there, because there were so many people back here wanting to see him up close, you know.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: So dad took him, got on him, and took him back to what they call the mule barn where they keep the mules, and it's a overhang, and it's, but it's a, it's not enclosed.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: He went back there to warm him up a little bit, and I went back with him and I was just following the horse, you know. And it was spectacular, that, that big arena was full of people. And all the way 01:01:00from the back at, at the warm-up area was right here and in the back was where the mule barn was.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And opened those doors and let him come back up in there, and there's a mass of people. And those people would just spread like that as that horse was going--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --to the ring, to show. And the crowd, you could hear the crowd just getting ready for him to come into the ring. It was like prize fights, you know.

SMITH: Huh.

TEATER: And in the fall that way, he was a liver, dark liver chestnut horse.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And in the fall, he'd almost look black. Just almost black, and of course, he always had a little silver, just a little bit of silver. You can't hardly see it when he, when he wasn't black. But that tail's flying back like that, that little bit of silver was flying in there like that and that crowd, and it, and it, what they'd do, they'd 01:02:00just close up behind him like that as he w-, started in the ring.

SMITH: Oh my.

TEATER: And that was one of the best shows I ever saw him make--

SMITH: --ah--

TEATER: --Wing Commander did. It was quite thrilling.

SMITH: One of his last?

TEATER: Huh?

SMITH: And it was one of his last?

TEATER: You know, I, I would have to look that up. It's--

SMITH: --yeah, I've got that in here somewhere.

TEATER: I, I'm almost. I know it's, the year was '55. I don't know how long he showed. I've forgotten.

SMITH: Is--

TEATER: --forty-eight. Huh?

SMITH: Is that why people responded so much, because, you know, he was a champion for so long--

TEATER: --yeah--

SMITH: --that he just--

TEATER: Well, he was a, he was just unusual, you know.

SMITH: In what way? Just--

TEATER: You just don't see horses like that, you know --(laughs)--.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: You, he-, you see horses that can go spots like him, you know. Maybe they can go forty feet and look like him--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --but they can't go all the way around the ring like him. He 01:03:00looked like that all the way around the ring.

SMITH: Oh my. Okay, I got this, I got all the stuff here.

TEATER: What was the last, what was the last year he showed?

SMITH: Well, that's what I'm trying to, '53.

TEATER: Huh?

SMITH: Well, wait a minute. Right here it said, looks like it's 1953.

TEATER: No, couldn't be. Maybe I, maybe I've got my--

SMITH: --maybe I don't have it right.

TEATER: Uh.

[Long pause in interview.]

TEATER: Well, maybe that was the year before I went in the army. I went 01:04:00in the army in '53.

SMITH: Hmm. Okay.

TEATER: I bet it was. That was before I went in the army. See how you get things mixed up?

SMITH: Oh, that's okay. You, you would be surprised at how many people get those kinds of things mixed up. It's not unusual.

TEATER: I went in '53 and got out in '55. And I was thinking that I saw it--

SMITH: --when you came home.

TEATER: --after I got out.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: I could have swore it was.

SMITH: Now, was your dad the only one who ever uh, showed Wing Commander?

TEATER: Um-hm.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: Yeah, he sure was. They had a lot of rides.

SMITH: Um-hm. I, I probably know the answer to this question, but was that your dad's favorite horse?

TEATER: Oh, oh yeah. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, but you know, he was fortunate uh, to have so many nice horses, you know.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: Just, from the time he was a very young man, you know. And uh, it, he was such a, he was an excellent trainer.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: But you've got to have the eye to get the horses, too--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --you know. Can't just be a good trainer and not have stock, but usually the ones that are good trainers got the eye for the horse--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --and they, they get the better horses, too. So, you put the combination together, they're all a lot better.

SMITH: Um-hm. And I think I read somewhere where your dad was good at taking a horse who seemed to be pretty average and helping them excel.

TEATER: Well, he, I think he, the big thing--you know I worked with him for twelve years.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: Aand I never enjoyed working twelve years more than I did working for my father. He's a tough man to work for.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: But the easiest man to work for if you did what he said to do. And I enjoyed every minute that I worked for him.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: And uh, uh, he always kind of knew what a horse's ability was, 01:07:00and I think that's a big factor--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --what made him such a great trainer. He'd take them right to their level, you know.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: Uh, as good as they -- and he would, wouldn't try to make them better than that level. And I, I, I mean I watched him for all my life, and uh, I thought that was one of the things he that had over a lot of, a lot of other trainers.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: Uh, that I, what made him, what made him such a good trainer, I think, is that he wanted that horse to show at his potential. It might 01:08:00not be the winner, he might be second, he might be third, but he was very pleased if that horse showed at his potential.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: And I think he had a, uh, an instinct built in about that.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: When a horse was doing all he could do, don't ask him for anymore. He's doing what he can do, you know.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And a lot of people can't feel that or know that or uh--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --they don't evaluate the horse that much, or as he would, probably.

SMITH: Hmm. How--

TEATER: --and uh, and it, why, and, and I think that's what made him such a great showman--

SMITH: --hmm--

TEATER: --is that he would know all the horses that were in the ring against him, that were showing against him. He knew their capabilities, sometimes more than the, the people that were riding them 01:09:00themselves, you know.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: What he could do to, you know, he was quite a showman. If he thought he could take a pass away from somebody, he'd take it. But he wouldn't ta-, very seldom see him take a pass that it wasn't a deserving pass.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: Never tried to, he was trying to show the judge that his horse was better than that horse, but he wouldn't, if that was a real top horse, he wouldn't try to take that pass, unless he had a top horse.

SMITH: Okay. Okay. Hmm. What are your memories of Wing Commander? Did you, were you around the horse very much? You said you first saw him in Michigan.

TEATER: Yeah, I jogged him a lot.

SMITH: Ah.

TEATER: Yeah and uh, there used to be a, we used to have to lead him, when he was retired--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --uh, I uh, I would take him up to the stallion barn, which was, oh it was like walking from here to the front road. It was a pretty 01:10:00good walk--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --you know. And I'd lead him up there to, to breed this mare, is where they'd come into the, the main stallion barn.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: That's where they had the big breeding shed and everything. And they'd bring the mares there, and then I'd lead him up to the, to the-- and that's where the uh, Standardbred stallions were, too.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: And, but we didn't Wing Commander go up to the stallion barn, we kept Wing Commander at the show barn.

SMITH: Oh, okay.

TEATER: Because he was kind of particular about where he stayed.

SMITH: --(laughs)-- All right.

TEATER: He didn't, didn't like a lot of stalls. And.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: That was his home when he came to Castleton, that one stall was, so we, we let him stay there. And one day it was raining pretty good, and my dad pulled up with the car, and the rain kind of stopped and it was muddy as it could be. And I had him, getting ready to walk out the door, and he said, "Why don't you just get on him and ride him 01:11:00up there." 'Course Wing Commander is the greatest mannered horse in the world. And he just got the ha- uh, got the shank out of my hand, he tied it on one side and hooked it on this side, said, "Get on him". And I got on him. He just walked up to the stallion barn with me, just like a old pleasure horse.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: And uh--

SMITH: --hmm--

TEATER: --never did get antsy or anything, just walked up there, bred the mare. You could ship him right beside a mare. He wouldn't bother a mare.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: Oh, he was just, he was a wonderful horse to be around. You know his blanket would never be moved. You'd put a blanket on him, it'd just stay there--

SMITH: --huh--

TEATER: --you know, just perfect.

SMITH: Was he an intelligent horse?

TEATER: Huh?

SMITH: Was he an intelligent horse?

TEATER: Oh, yeah. Uh, and you never knew he was a stallion.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: Never, you know, bellowing in the stall or anything when a mare would go by, or-- he shipped beside Showboat all the time in the, in the van.

SMITH: Oh, really?

TEATER: Showboat was a mare that my dad had showed. One of the best gaited mares I ever saw was Showboat. And uh, oh no, he was just--if you had to take a baby, if you had to do this--

SMITH: --hmm--

TEATER: --and there, there was thirty horses--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --and Wing Commander standing there, and you had to put that baby in the stall and shut the door, he'd be the only one I'd put the baby in with.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: But he never, never tried to hurt anybody or, nothing, just.

SMITH: Hmm. Now, I've heard stories of, ah, stallions that, are quite the opposite. Did your dad have to deal with some pretty difficult stallions as well? Or show, show horses? --[telephone rings]-- Did he have some that were harder to manage?

TEATER: Not that when I--well, you know, uh. One time I was watching this lady, Woodbury I believe her name was, and she's uh, from England.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And she was a great dog trainer--

SMITH: --hmm--

TEATER: --and judges of the dogs. I was in--this was about in the 80's, and I'd watch this girl, this woman.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And I had a bad dog myself. I had a little uh, uh, Dachshund that wouldn't listen, do anything I wanted it to do. So I was watching this dog show, trying to learn how to train the dog. And uh, she had 01:14:00this dog, and she'd just take a dog, they'd hand her a dog, she just fool with it a little bit and put it down, and do this, just to get it walking, you know, just bring it back up, set it up there. Unruly dog, just take it, get.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: One dog they gave her one, one night--she was on for a half hour, I'd watch her every, she was on once a week. And I'd watch this program, trying to learn--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: -- how to lead my dog, --(Smith laughs)-- bad dog. She worked with this dog about a minute. She said this fellow--had two or three people, you know--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --helping her. "Here, take this dog. Get it out of here. Untrainable." --(both laugh)-- I looked at my dog, I said, "I believe you're the second untrainable." But, I don't think my dad would fool, 01:15:00you know, he wouldn't--

SMITH: --oh--

TEATER: --I think he would be like that if he ran into one that was, he wouldn't have much to do with it.

SMITH: So if it was untrainable, he would know that.

TEATER: Oh yeah, yeah.

SMITH: Okay. Huh. Hmm

TEATER: He'd give it good whirl, but I think he would kind of get rid of it, you know.

SMITH: How did your dad learn to be such a good horseman? Who were his mentors? You mentioned Bob Moreland.

TEATER: He was self taught. And uh, you know, like--I asked my dad one day, I said, "W-, what, why did you do that?" He'd, he'd put a new bridle on this horse and things and it just worked beautiful.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: New bits. -----------(??) I said, "Dad, did you know that was gonna work?" And he said, "No," said, "Don't you know?" I said, "Wh-, know what?" "It's trial and error. You try it, if it doesn't work, you don't use it. Hang it up, get rid of it." --(laughs)-- So I, I think uh, probably--

SMITH: --um-hm, hmm--

TEATER: -- trial and error, learning. It's uh, sometime in trial and error it's not as good, if you have a mentor that uh, you can ask and not make that mistake, you see.

SMITH: I understand.

TEATER: But it, it's the hard way. And uh, because you can ruin a horse, you know, when you're guessing at what you're supposed to do.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And some people have learned that way, and they're excellent.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And, just not try to make too many mistakes.

SMITH: Yeah.

TEATER: My dad's always used to--'course he's the big--the old saying is, you know, "take care of the little things, the big things take care of themselves", you know, and I, he was stickler on little things--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --you know.

SMITH: Now your Uncle Lloyd was a trainer as well?

TEATER: Oh, yes, wonderful trainer. And he trained so many different types of horses, kind of ran a different stable from what my dad did.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: He was uh, in the public business all the time.

SMITH: Oh, okay.

TEATER: About, oh heck, ninety percent of his life I bet he was in public stables. Wh-, you know, where that he's not working for--

SMITH: --yeah--

TEATER: --he worked for himself and didn't work for anybody. My dad 01:18:00mostly had private jobs.

SMITH: Which one do you think would have been harder? Pub-, having a public stable or--

TEATER: --uh, well, they both had their drawbacks.

SMITH: Yeah.

TEATER: Uh, they both have their positive things that are good.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And both of them got their positive things that are bad.

SMITH: --(laughs)-- Okay. That's a good way to put it.

TEATER: Yeah. And.

SMITH: What were, what were some of the challenges of being in a, uh, having, well, with your uncle in a public stable? What would be some of the things that would have--

TEATER: --well, you've got so many people to deal with.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: Some people deal better with a number of people, and some people can't deal but with one.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And uh, uh, my uncle was very outgoing. Uh, uh, probably a better teacher than my father.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: Uh, I mean, I could get more information out of him than I could my father.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: And it wasn't because my father wouldn't, didn't want to tell me, he, he had a hard time getting it across, you know. What he knew, he'd eventually get it to you, but--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --you'd have to wait a long time to get it, you know. And we, you could go to Lloyd and ask him something, and man, he'd just shoot you an answer like that, you know, "try this, try that, do this", you know.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: And uh.

SMITH: Who were some of the other uh, trainers in that time period, uh, that your father respected and thought were good trainers?

TEATER: Oh uh, 'course I think uh, Lee Roby was uh, he was always very 01:20:00fond of him. And I think the fondness goes to the ability of riding. --(laughs)-- Kind of hate to say that, but I think it's true. You know they--and I think it's true in professionals when you're, you respect somebody, by, what you're doing, he's doing, he's do- ,maybe doing it a little better here and a little better there and you know, so you.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And uh, uh, 'course the Bradshaw's--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: -- uh, both Garland and Frank, you know, were different types of riders.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: Uh, they had their own style. Oh, you know, Lloyd, he had his own style.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: Uh.

SMITH: That's one thing I'm, I'm hearing, is that a lot of people had their own style that they--all the very successful, fairly successful 01:21:00trainers all had their own style, but it worked for them.

TEATER: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Uh, well, there are so many uh, golly, when you try to think of the good trainers, there's so many that I had thought were good trainers, you know, and admired, and, and uh, some, some people have more knacks to do one thing--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --and they're not as uh, adapt to do ever-, the whole thing.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: But they're, maybe they're excellent people with a colt, maybe they're excellent people racking a colt--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --uh, excellent at doing harness, you know--

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: --but not uh, excellent in all of it--

SMITH: --right--

TEATER: --you know.

SMITH: Now who were some of the people you admired, maybe learned from as you were coming up in business?

TEATER: Well, I, I was very fortunate that when I went to work at Dodge's, the fellow that gaited uh, Wing Commander, gaited all my dad's horses, just about.

SMITH: Who was that?

TEATER: Uh, Marvin Lane. And I worked, I knew Marvin just about all my life, but I worked with him for about three years steady, you know.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: When I first started working for my dad, something happened, Marvin left. And uh, then I had another man that he hired as-- was second trainer, and there was a--he had two second trainers.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And he hired another fellow name Fred George.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And Fred was from Tennessee uh, and it just ------------(??), uh, I learned a lot from him. And then another fellow named Al Brown came to work there, and he worked for Frank Bradshaw for a long time--

SMITH: --hmm--

TEATER: --as second trainer. And he thought like a horse, I mean he just thought like a horse, you know.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: Very meticulous uh, about the most meticulous man I've ever worked around, you know, just--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --thought like a horse uh, and I learned a tremendous amount 01:24:00from him. I, and so I was real-, really lucky when I started training seriously, you know, this, this was gonna be my life.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And that was 1955. I know that for sure, because I started working. (both laugh)

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: I started working in November of '55 uh, when, after I got out of the service.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: And I was, I just really loved my work and I, the people that I was fortunate enough, to be that young, and to be working with uh, 'cause my dad wouldn't be there all the time, you know.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: Uh, he, he'd have certain periods of time when he came in and at say 8 o'clock in the morning he wanted these four horses to work.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And everything kind of just stopped and we'd work those four horses, he would.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And then he'd leave, then we'd keep training, you know.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: And uh, so I had these wonderful people that I worked with and the grooms that worked there, there was, there were seven that averaged, I'll say probably they averaged, probably they wor-, averaged twenty-five years working a piece there. I mean long time grooms.

SMITH: Yeah.

TEATER: Excellent. And these grooms were excellent horsemen.

SMITH: Now, were they African-American?

TEATER: Uh, well, let's see, two boys uh, three were black, and then 01:26:00uh, Joe, Gregory, Rudy, Arnold, and Rubin were Mexican. And this was before Mexicans ever came to the United States, you know, I'm talking about '55, you didn't see many Mexicans, you know.

SMITH: Right. Right.

TEATER: And uh, they came from down there at the Spofford Ranch in Texas, Spofford, Texas.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: It's called the Anacacho Ranche.

SMITH: ----------(??)

TEATER: What was that fellow's name? Anyways, that's where they worked. They were raised on that ranch.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: And uh, and then two fellows that were brothers, Joe and Gregory Pena, P-E-N-A.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: Or it's P-E-N-N-A, one or the other. They came to work, and they were in Michigan when we got there.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: And they were starting their families, and they had uh, four or five children a piece, and then they moved to Kentucky with us. And then their sons worked there, too.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: And uh, they were the most wonderful families you've ever, ever known, period.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: Uh, most of them were all-- turned out to be, you know, they'd work the stable when they were young, going to school and things, and they were all nurses, the girls were nurses, and then the boys were CPA's and contract builders and uh, uh, they were all very successful, you know, and.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And, but Joe when and uh, and Gregory, they worked there 01:28:00probably thirty-five--they worked there longer than my dad did.

SMITH: Really?

TEATER: They, they retired probably after thirty-five, forty years.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: And then those boy, well, then Rudy retired, that was the oldest boy, he retired aft-, after he'd been there about thirty years, and then he went out into a business, I can't even remember what it was now, made a ton of money.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: Just a ton of money, just, happy boy, very nice. So I was really lucky.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And.

SMITH: About how many people were working in, in the Saddlebred stable here?

TEATER: The training?

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: There was uh, seven all the time, eight, eight grooms, seven to 01:29:00eight grooms, never less than seven, most of the time eight--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --and two second trainers.

SMITH: Gee. Was this a pretty good place for people to work, in the business?

TEATER: Oh, yeah, yeah. And uh, the uh, Van Lennep's were, Mrs. Van Lennep was, she was, --(laughs)-- I don't--Everybody just loved her.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: Uh, she, she was just a wonderful person.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And she really took care of her help, you know.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: Everybody that worked for her was. And if you, if she hired you, you were the boss. You told her what to do, after she hired you.

SMITH: Yeah.

TEATER: "What do I do?" --(laughs)-- "You tell me".

SMITH: Yeah, I've heard some stories of, uh, bosses who didn't quite work that way, who were a little more interfering, uh, with the training of the horses.

TEATER: Who was?

SMITH: Nobody--

TEATER: --oh--

SMITH: -- in particular--

TEATER: --oh--

SMITH: --just that there were others--

TEATER: --yes, oh no ----------(??)

SMITH: -- who weren't. Did she know horses, though? Was she a good horsewoman?

TEATER: Um-hm. Yeah. She's the one that you see riding, that picture of uh, the great trotting horse, Greyhound.

SMITH: Um-hm. Um-hm

TEATER: That's Frances Dodge.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: The lady that, ho-, held the world's record for about forty years for riding a trotter at--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --at the fastest timing.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: And that, you know, there was guy riding uh, beside her driving a horse--

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: --beside her, and she's riding a, a gray Standardbred.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: I know you've seen--

SMITH: --I have--

TEATER: --the picture. Yeah.

SMITH: I have. And that's her?

TEATER: Yeah.

SMITH: Oh. Hmm, hmm

TEATER: She was a, a little on the wild side, you know, it, but she was 01:31:00a, a, just a wonderful person.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: Very shy person. Very, very shy.

SMITH: Really?

TEATER: Yeah. I never will forget uh, my mother and her were real close and uh, I mean they'd, dad and mother would always go down to their place in Florida and stay with them for a couple of months every winter, you know.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And they just had a great time. And uh, but I worked, and she, but she's real shy, and I'd speak to her she would, she couldn't speak to me, you know. And, but I would always, seem like if we'd go out to dinner or something, at the horse shows and things, I'd be right beside her, you know. And she'd just shaking, so--

SMITH: --hmm--

TEATER: --I told mother, I said, "She won't speak to me." He, she, mother said, "Just keep speaking to her," said, "She will speak to you," and said, "she's just shy." So I just, every time I'd see her, I'd speak to her and everything. And after about five or six years, she'd--

SMITH: --oh--

TEATER: --"Morning, morning." And so, I was there twelve years, I mean that I worked there.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And I decided that I was gonna go to Rock Creek and go down there and, you know, get out from underneath my dad and--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --try my wings, you know.

SMITH: Right.

TEATER: And uh, so I was there and I told my dad, I said, "you know," I said, "I, I'm gonna go up to the office and tell Ms. Van Lennep that, how much I enjoyed it." And he said, "Oh," he said, "that'd be great," 01:33:00you know. So I went up to the office, she was there and everything, and she saw me come in, and, and I said, "I just want to thank you for everything you've done for me." And I said, "I've really enjoyed working here," and stuff like that. Well, she said, "I, I know you're gonna be all right," and says, you know, said, "We're just getting to know each other pretty good," and said "I hate to see you leave." --(both laugh)--

SMITH: After twelve years--

TEATER: -- I'd been there twelve years. That's the most she ever said to me. --(Smith laughs)-- "I'm just getting to know you."

SMITH: We, we've uh, you still up to continuing it a little bit more? We've got lots to cover. We're not gonna get it done today, if that's oaky.

TEATER: Yep.

SMITH: Okay. Uh,

TEATER: I need to go to the bathroom.

SMITH: Okay. I can take care of that here. --(Teater laughs)-- I think I did this right. All right, we're back on. Um, we've talked, most 01:34:00of this time, we've talked about your dad, and of course you've worked a lot with your father, uh, but now let's kind of turn our attention a little bit to, to your career. Now, uh, when you came to here from Michigan, you were in high school, at that time? Is that about right? Is this where you graduated?

TEATER: When I came here, I, I came here my sophomore year, of high school. So, I think that was either, that was my, 'cause I went to school here in, in Lexington, once, before I went to Michigan. And I went to school in Nashville. I, I've, I've counted it up before, and it's, I think I went to seven schools to get through twelve grades. So uh.

SMITH: That had to be hard.

TEATER: You know it wasn't. Uh, you know, I always liked school. I was never a good student, but I liked my teachers, and I liked, --(laughs)- 01:35:00- I liked the students and the coaches and the, I liked everything about school, but I was a bad student. And uh--

SMITH: --did you--

TEATER: --I think I enjoyed it too much, in fact. --(laughs)--

SMITH: Did you play sports?

TEATER: --(laughs)-- And I do--yes, I played a lot of different sports. I played everything that there was, just, when I was in, you know, in high school.

SMITH: Yeah.

TEATER: And, oh I played, oh, I don't know, when I was in Michigan, we did, I had a real good-looking girl friend.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: I was just like in the seventh, I was in the eighth and ninth grade.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And she was really good-looking. I was crazy about her, and she was a great tennis player. And I, I started playing a lot of tennis, of course, you know.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: I took up tennis. --(laughs)-- I liked tennis. And uh, but I got pretty good at it, and uh, this girl and I, we, we played at a lot 01:36:00of tournaments and, what do you call, they're, they're kind of a junior tournament, you know.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And uh, we played in the mixed doubles, and we won a lot of events in the mixed doubles and, and uh, I was on the swimming team and football team. I, I loved basketball, but I, I just never could quite make the grade in it, you know, where that.

SMITH: Um-hm. Now, were you showing horses? At this time, too, for your dad?

TEATER: No. No. Uh, I'd work in the summer times, you know. Uh, I'd, you know, a lot of times dad had two strings who--one time he was in-- well, he'd use me, you know, to help him do certain things, you know.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And he had a, we had uh, Wing Commander and, oh me, we had four horses that we sent to Kansas City to show.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And dad took four horses to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania to show. And then I went out to Kansas City with the four horses out there--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --and exercised him, them, they had conflicting dates.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: And uh, and, and I, I'd do things like that, you know.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: I'd jog the horses for him, you know.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: And uh, which was quite a thrill, you know, to jog Wing Commander or uh, Showboat. Meadow Princess was uh, the world's champion six years in a row, walk-trot horse.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: Uh, they were like machines sitting in front of you, you know, 01:38:00just, like that, you know, just every step in the right place and.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: Uh, but no, I, I, uh, during the school, I had to go to school.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And it was my dad's ambition for all, everybody to get a college education. Uh, and uh, I did not get a college education. I went to University of Kentucky for a couple of years and uh, then I went into the service and uh--

SMITH: --did you join the service--

TEATER: --and after I, pardon me?

SMITH: Did you join the service, voluntarily?

TEATER: Oh, no. --(laughs)-- They, they take you.

SMITH: Okay. --(both laugh)--

TEATER: Back then they did, you know.

SMITH: Yeah.

TEATER: Your number come up and it's time for you to go. And uh--

SMITH: --that was--

TEATER: --I was there during the Korean conflict.

SMITH: Yeah.

TEATER: And uh, I was trying to think of something that I was gonna to tell you that was kind of interesting, and I forgot. I had a fleeting memory there.

SMITH: It'll come back at sometime. --(both laugh)-- Was it about when you were young, when you were in high school? No?

TEATER: But I did, I en-, I really did enjoy school--

SMITH: --okay--

TEATER: -- you know, that part of it and.

SMITH: So when you went, when you were drafted, uh, can you tell me a little bit about your service?

TEATER: Well, I just, I was, stayed in the states.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: I was in Arkansas and then uh, for the longest period, about, almost two years I was in Arkansas. And I was in the military police and what they did there at that camp uh, Fort Chaffee, they called it 01:40:00or Camp Chaffee. I think it's Fort Chaffee now, or used to be.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: Uh, I think that was the fifth army, and they trained--it was a training center to send boys to Korea and, and then when they got through at Korea, they came back there and it was a discharge center.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: It was-- they used it for both things.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: So you'd send 'em over there as boys and they'd come back pretty strong men. And, uh, it was very, and I, I was fascinated with the, uh, I went to a military police school.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And I really thought about going into police work of some kind.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: And uh, I had some excellent teachers. I learned it more there 01:41:00than I did going to school 12 years. --(laughs)-- I thought I did anyway. And, uh, but I didn't pursue, but, you, when I got out, I, I said I want to work with horses.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: You know?

SMITH: Had that been your plan all along?

TEATER: And my dad had, had always encouraged me to do something else.

SMITH: Now what about your brothers? You have two brothers? Is that right?

TEATER: Two, two older brothers. Lewis is, uh, uh-- Lou, he always worked with the broodmares.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And, uh, the stallions, and uh, and Pete was, had worked for my father.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: Excellent rider. And, but he kind of moved on into the Thoroughbreds.

SMITH: Oh, okay.

TEATER: And, uh, did that for quite a while. And he's retired. He still-- my older brother, Pete, is his name.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: And, uh.

SMITH: What did he do with Thoroughbreds? What, what was his job?

TEATER: Well, uh, he would take horses that other people didn't want and fool around with 'em. Uh, never got into it on a grand scale, you know, a big scale. And he worked for North Ridge Farm when they were going big. He worked for them for--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: -- several years. Same people that I work for--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: -- that had Saddlebred horses in Minnesota, uh, bought a big farm down here and Pete worked on that farm down here.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: A beautiful place. Uh.

SMITH: So you graduated from high school, you went to college for a couple of years?

TEATER: Yeah.

SMITH: And then you were drafted.

TEATER: Um-hm.

SMITH: So you, your, your first job working with horses was at Dodge 01:43:00Stables?

TEATER: Yes.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: Where, that I had decided that's what I wanted to do.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: I was about, I don't know, 23, 22, 23 years old, something like that.

SMITH: Pretty young.

TEATER: And, uh, and I stayed there 12 years. Then I went to Rock Creek.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And I was there six years.

SMITH: And what--

TEATER: --and then my--

SMITH: --were you a trainer there?

TEATER: Yes.

SMITH: How does that work at Rock Creek?

TEATER: Yes, I was, I had a very, very successful uh, stable there. I won, won the three-gaited championship there with a horse called Sea of Secrets. And he was, he was one of the, the best, uh, three- gaited horses that, that, you know, I was ever around. And, uh, and then I went back after I was there for six years, my dad passed away 01:44:00--[noise]-- and I went to work. And Mr. Van Lennep hired me back to be the head trainer. And I was there three years. And of course he'd been left all the money and the farms. He wasn't left any money. Mrs. Van Lennep died. He wasn't left any money, but he--

SMITH: --through her family?

TEATER: Yeah.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: She did not leave him any money.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: He was the family.

SMITH: Okay?

TEATER: Who, you know? I mean that's, her two children--

SMITH: --were--

TEATER: -- that he'd had by Mr. Van Lennep, Rikki and John, they were left the cash.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: He was left, big farm, with those, all those big Standardbred 01:45:00stallions.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And all the racetracks and things like that that they had and, uh, no cash.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: So, but he came out all right. I mean he uh, you know, made a deal with the government to pay them so much, you know, every year. And, and they understood what his circumstances were, I think. And uh, he came out all right on it eventually. Where he, you know, he could have sold all the stallions you know, the farm and, and been able to pay all his taxes--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --you know. But he didn't want to do that. He wanted to keep the farm. He wanted to keep the Saddlebred horses. 'Cause his daughter was still riding at the time. And uh, but it's the nicest firing I ever had in my life--(laughs)--. Uh, I was there, wh-, going, 01:46:00getting ready to go into my third year and it was dead of winter, cold. And uh, Mr. Van Lennep called me. He said, "What are you doing up there?" And I said, "I'm cold." You know, it's very unusual for him --[telephone rings]-- to call me--

SMITH: --um-hm.--

TEATER: --you know. And uh, --[telephone rings]-- he said, uh, "Why don't you and Suzie just get on a plane, come down here and get out of that cold weather, stay, stay over at the guest house. And I'll have it ready for you." And said, "Just go up, tell Gwen. I've already told," Gwen was his personal secretary that stayed there at the farm in--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER:-- ----------(??). Said, "Get you some cash and," said, "you know," and said, "She'll have your plane tickets for you and everything." I went home that night and I told Suzie. I said, "Uh, that doesn't sound right." I said, "That's awful nice, but it doesn't 01:47:00sound right," you know. So then the next day he called me back and he said, "Oh, I forgot to tell you," said, "When, uh, after you're there, get your hair let down four or five days," he said, uh, uh-- and the, the house is right there. It's like right there where that barn is and you're just--

SMITH: --uh-huh--

TEATER: -- right across the road--

SMITH: --okay--

TEATER: --and that's where the guest house was.

SMITH: Uh-huh.

TEATER: He said, "Give my office a ring and come on down to the office," said, "I want to talk to you about something." So I did --(laughs)--. And he'd, he had a, he went through and told me everything he tried to--

SMITH: --yeah--

TEATER: -- and that he just couldn't keep the Saddle Horses up first class anymore. And said, "I think it's time to sell out." Which we did. And uh, we had a big sale. It was one of the large--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: -- dispersal sales, you know. And, uh, they were very good to 01:48:00me, you know. My three years there was, uh, just about as nice as you could have, you know. Just like it was when I was there, when my dad was there.

SMITH: Um-hm--

TEATER: You know, just--

SMITH: --Was some of the help still there?

TEATER: I saw him, uh, let's see-- I can't, remember when I went to work there. It was, like, uh, early fall right after, October, I'd say.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: He came, I saw him in the office. We talked. He said, "Well, you're gonna run it just like you always have." Said. "Just--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER:-- if you need anything, call me." And that was, like, in October or November, maybe. November. And I didn't see him until April, the later part of April again. I never talked to him again. But that's the way it was all the time, you know.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And, of course he never, he never, when Mrs. Van Lennep was alive, he never fooled much with the Saddlebred.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: Mrs. Van Lennep took care of all that. She took care of everything.

SMITH: And he was interested in Standardbred?

TEATER: And uh-- huh?

SMITH: He was interested in the Standard--

TEATER: --yeah--

SMITH:-- bred?

TEATER: Oh, she was too.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: Oh yeah. Yeah. She had the finest trainers and, of Standardbreds, you know.

SMITH: Uh-huh.

TEATER: She had Speedy Scott and Victory Song, Ensign Hanover, Good Time.

SMITH: Did your dad manage that farm as well?

TEATER: Yeah, he was the general manager for-- that's why that-- a lot of times when, that, you know, he, he'd have his six -eight horses that he worked. But he'd only work maybe four this Tuesday and four the next Tuesday and four that Friday and four the next Friday and--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER:-- and, uh, but it, it was interesting, you know.

SMITH: Yeah.

TEATER: Yeah.

SMITH: Now but when you came, you were just with the Saddlebred portion with the Dodge Stable?

TEATER: Oh yeah.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: Yeah, uh-huh. My dad was, he was the head trainer of the Saddlebreds and general manager of racetracks and everything.

SMITH: Did he enjoy that?

TEATER: Huh?

SMITH: Did he enjoy all the,--

TEATER: --that guy, the guy that took care of all the books and everything, was at Price Waterhouse up there in--

SMITH: --yeah--

TEATER: -- in Detroit. He'd come down, you know, they'd have all these books and then what they were doing and then--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER:-- and uh, dad would say uh,-- this guy would tell this story.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And says, "Your dad sits there and he said, 'That won't work.' Said, 'I don't believe those numbers are right.' And they'd have their 01:51:00board meeting, you know. "Those numbers aren't right." "Oh, yes they are, too." He said, "You know, 95 percent of the time your dad was right." And I said. "My sixth, sixth grade education would get you that way, won't it?" And that guy said, "I know it." --(Smith laughs)-- "I know what education he's got. But it's a hell of a lot better than mine," --(laughs)-- he said. So uh, he was quite a, he could figure a lot more in his mind than.

SMITH: Did he not graduate from high school?

TEATER: No. No.

SMITH: Was taking care of the family.

TEATER: Right.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: I think he was, I think he probably went to about the seventh, eighth grade.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: He always said, "I got six grades." But I think he had seven or eight maybe.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: So.

SMITH: So, um, you were at Rock Creek for about six years and then you 01:52:00came back here. What, who were some of the horses you were working with at that time? You mentioned a few from Rock Creek, but what about at Dodge Stable? Do you remember?

TEATER: Well, of course we still had Lover's Sensation.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And, uh, we had Delightful Time. Um, we had, you know kind of, we had some nice horses.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And a lot of 'em turned into be great broodmares, sire, uh, dams and things, but it didn't seem like we had the-- we had, like, Popular Time and he was a, he was a world's champion, you know. He, he was a nice horse. --[voices in the background]-- And Lover's Sensation, of course, was a nice horse.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: Uh, you know, when you deal with a bunch of colts every year,--

SMITH: -- yeah, --(laughs)-- right--

TEATER: -- it's tough. Some years you won't have-- you know, if you have 20, 25 colts come in say--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: -- say you had 20 and you get two out of there that are nice--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: -- and here we had the best stallions and the best broodmare that money could buy. We thought we did.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And still, but when you're breeding it's, it's uh, uh, you know, you, you take the good with the bad.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: Some years you might have four or five that are really nice.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And some years you might have one that's o-, okay--

SMITH: --hmm--

TEATER: -- when you're breeding.

SMITH: Now who made the decisions on breeding?

TEATER: My dad.

SMITH: Your dad did?

TEATER: Yeah.

SMITH: And when you came here as head trainer, you did as well?

TEATER: When I came back? Yeah, I did.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: And uh, no, there just wasn't questioned. I never thought about 01:54:00it to even tell you the truth,--

SMITH: --hmm--

TEATER: -- of asking anybody who--

SMITH: --um-hm.

TEATER: And uh, but it worked out pretty good.

SMITH: Um-hm, um-hm, um-hm.

TEATER: Dad, he'd always just breed the mare and breed to the same stud every year. --(laughs)--

SMITH: And got some good results.

TEATER: And it got some good results.

SMITH: Now, um, well I have several questions but I wanted to uh, make sure I didn't forget this one. I read when you dispersed the Dodge Stables in 1975 that that was a record sale and that you did something a little different in getting the horses ready.

TEATER: Uh, yeah. We did a more like a, a pedigree type thing on, on the animals which had, had, hadn't really been done at any sales or anything.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: More like Thoroughbred--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: -- uh, catalogue. And uh, I think the, that kind of started the Association--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: -- thinking, uh, which we have beautiful records now at the Association.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And it started to change in their minds, which I was on the board of, of directors of the Association for--

SMITH: --the American Saddle Horse--

TEATER: --yeah. I was on board there for maybe 20 years, something like that.

SMITH: Oh.

TEATER: Longer. I don't know how long it was. But, uh, I think it kind of opened people's eyes up a little bit and, uh, it wasn't any, uh, you know, meticulous, big thing that we did. It was just something that kind of started and the people that, uh, had the catalogues liked it, you know. And it just kind of put some, some key players thinking. 01:56:00And it just kept going. And now we have excellent records that you can get--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: -- handily. My wife is an expert at it--

SMITH: --yeah--

TEATER: -- and of course we keep our own records here--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --but, which we had to when we first started the sale. But now the Association has records that you can look up a mare--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: -- and find out what the show record was, now. And you can find out what they've produced and, you know, what that, uh, that dams maybe had a filly that turned out to be a great producing mare that--

SMITH: Right.

TEATER: -- and it's in there, you know, see, so people--

SMITH: --and before--

TEATER: -- could see it now. Before you had, you had to dig through cards, you know.

SMITH: Oh okay.

TEATER: It was a card system that was very complicated.

SMITH: Yeah.

TEATER: Just the people that worked there could usually find the, out 01:57:00something for you.

SMITH: Right, right. So-- and you-- was it difficult to sell the horses, emotionally? Was it hard to do that, to disperse the stable?

TEATER: Hmm, it's kind of a sad thing, you know. Uh, you do it because it-- and once-- it's a job. And you've got to do it. And you want to do it the, the best you can do it, professionally.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And, uh, so a lot of thought is going in on it. I, I want it this way, because I think it'd be the classiest way to do it--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --first. And uh, I, and you know it, it, and it didn't bother you until afterwards.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: Then it bothers you--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --you know.

SMITH: What happened to, uh, the people who were working here at that 01:58:00time? You know?

TEATER: Well, they had, uh, well Bethel, he went to work for, uh, Pep Peppiatt.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And he still works for him. He, he doesn't do anything, but, you know--

SMITH: --yeah, I do--

TEATER -- ----------(??) paying him.

SMITH: Right.

TEATER: And uh, that, that's the one, one of the black guys. And the other two, uh, Caleb and Junior Calwell were brothers.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: And Caleb died right after we sold out.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: And then Junior passed away here about four or five years ago. And of course, Joe and Gregory are both dead.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: They're, they're, they would be, if they were alive they'd almost be, they'd be 95 probably, or--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: -- 100--

SMITH: --um-hm, um-hm--

TEATER: --you know? They died probably, Joe died about ten years ago and--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --both of them died about ten years ago.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: But, Ruben and, and uh, Paul's dead. And Arnold is still alive. And Ruben's still alive. And uh, Rudy's still alive.

SMITH: Did they continue to work with Saddle Horse?

TEATER: No, no, they're not with horses at all.

SMITH: They didn't. Okay.

TEATER: They, they're all, Ruben's got a big accounting company here in town and--

SMITH: --okay, okay, yeah, you were telling me he--

TEATER: --yeah. And that's, let's see, no, Paul died. Paul had a, he was building houses like crazy and had a heart attack, died.

SMITH: Oh. Hmm.

TEATER: And uh, so. But then I went from, I, I came-- I bought this 02:00:00place--

SMITH: --um-hm.--

TEATER: -- after the sale. And was getting ready to build a barn, training barn.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: We didn't have this house. And uh, Miss Groves called me that has North Ridge farm.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: And said she'd like me to go work for her. And I said, "Well, I'm getting ready to build a barn. And I'm not going to work for anybody. I'm gonna build my barn and go to work." She said-- this was like Sunday morning--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: -- about 9 o'clock in the morning. And I was reading the Sunday paper. This was, well oh, probably two or three weeks after-- oh, longer than that. This was, uh-- because I'd already-- I bought this after the sale.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And, you know, we were, but, looking at barn plans and things 02:01:00like that. This was probably, like, in, uh, maybe November or December--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: -- after the sale in July.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: And she said, "Well, I'd like for you to go to work for me." And I said, "Well, I'm not interested." I said, "I'm getting ready to build a barn." So we had a little conversation and hung up. And I had met her down in Florida that year.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: The year before I'd met her down there.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: Her, met her little daughter and things. And it, it wasn't 15 minutes later she called me back again. Said, "What, wouldn't you just look at this job?" Said, "It's one of the best jobs in the country, you know." I said, "Oh, I don't know." I said, "I told Suzie what that call was about," and I said--.

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: -- and she said, "Well, look, we've got a plane." And said, "It's, uh, landing in Lexington right now." And said, uh, "Just go out and get on it." Said, "It takes an hour and 15 minutes to get up here." And said, "Just look at it." So I told Suzie-- I said, well I said, "Okay." So I, we got packed , a couple little things and went out, had a beautiful jet, one of those executive type--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: -- little jets, you know. And I think it hold two pilots and nine people. Really nice.

SMITH: Yeah.

TEATER: That little things like a bullet, just a, swoosh, like that, it's gone.

SMITH: Oh.

TEATER: Be up there in about an hour and 15, 20 minutes. So we looked at, looked it all over and things. Snow. Goodnight, snow was that high.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: But, looked in the barn. Looked at all the horses and the broodmares and, and, uh, we got back to the hotel and I said-- Suzie said uh, "What do you think?" I said, "Not for me. I'm not going to work here." And, uh, she said, "Well you gotta go to the office tomorrow and meet with Mr. Groves." And I said, "I don't know about that." I said, "I'm not going to work. I don't care." So went down there to the office the next day. And I decided then there's no way they'll hire me. And uh, they said, to, start talk about this and talk about that. And uh, I said, "Well," I said, "you know, I've got seven or eight horses." I said, "But what the hell am I gonna do with those 02:04:00seven or eight horses?"

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And uh, "Well," said, "we could buy 'em from you." "Yeah, you could." And so they talked a little more and they, they said it wouldn't be any problem about that. So he said, uh, "How much would you have to have?" And I thought of the highest figure I could think of, you know, told 'em. I said, "You know, I'd think about it at that." And they, they just both nod-, nodded, you know. "That's fine," you know. --(Smith laughs)-- And I said, "Well, I'd have to have a, you know, I'd have to have insurance and all that." "Oh, yeah, yeah, 02:05:00yeah." "And I'd want a car too. I don't, I don't want any old car now." --(mumbles)-- "Yeah, yeah, yeah." And so, I said, "I'm hooked. What am I gonna do?" --(Smith laughs)-- And I'm sitting -- I'm gonna tell you one thing, and I, I knew I was gonna get out of this. I said, "I want to take six weeks and I want to go to Florida. I don't want anybody to have to go to anybody and say, 'I'm gonna take six weeks and go to Florida.' And if we have to do it that way I'm not interested at all." And I said, "I might want to go longer than that, but I don't want anybody to tell me I can't."

SMITH: --(laughs)--You got stuck.

TEATER: I was stuck. So I was there ten years. --(both laugh)--

SMITH: Sounds like a great job.

TEATER: Oh it was. It was, well we loved it up there too. And they, 02:06:00they were nice people to work for--

SMITH: --is that Groves?

TEATER: Huh?

SMITH: What's the last name? Groves?

TEATER: Groves.

SMITH: Groves. Okay. I ----------(??), huh.

TEATER: They, uh, they bought about 100, uh, when I went up there we had about 130 broodmares.

SMITH: That's big.

TEATER: And I think we had five stallions and about 40 head in training, 43 head in training. This is a big operation.

SMITH: Yeah. About how many people did you have to have working for you?

TEATER: A lot. I was say that there was probably, oh, about two trainers and two second trainers, and myself and probably ten men. Um, and there was uh, we had a residence veterinarian. Uh, we had a man in charge of the broodmares. Um, and the broodmare help and the stallion 02:07:00help. Well, we probably had 20 people who were working there.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: Maybe more.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: And, uh, then we got where we were training 65 head all the time. We built another barn to it and it got bigger and bigger and bigger where sometimes we were working 75 head of horses.

SMITH: Now by Saddle farm standards, that's pretty big?

TEATER: That's about as big as you get, yeah.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: You don't get much bigger than that unless--

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: -- you want just be completely crazy. --(both laugh)--

SMITH: Now--

TEATER: --I met a man, ----------(??), one of the nicest men I ever knew and I'm, I met him through my father. And he was, he'd always buy a 02:08:00broodmare from my dad.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And, uh, he bought-- he loved horses. Loved to have them. I mean this man loved broodmare more than anything in the world. And he always kept, for years, he'd keep four or five, six broodmares. Four, five, six--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --you know. And he bought, I think my dad sold him a broodmare, you know, he'd come down every couple of years and he'd always, you know--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: -- get a broodmare. And several years, when I was up in Minnesota--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: -- man came by to see me. And I had heard that he'd been buying just tons of broodmares.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: This was, of course my dad had been dead a long time by this time. And we sat down in my office and we're talking and he said, "Ed, you know," he said, "I always used to keep just four or five, six 02:09:00broodmares." And he said, "I loved 'em. Loved 'em." And he said, "I enjoyed it so much and it was--I, I could leave my business and go to the farm," and he said, "I--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: -- know each one of my mares and know their babies," and he said, "I was happy as I could be." Well, I said, "That's great. Great." He says, "You know what? The last two years," he said, "I have not enjoyed it." I said, "Well why haven't you enjoyed it?" He said, "I've got 70 broodmares now." He said, "I don't hardly know one of 'em." And he says, "I don't enjoy it anymore." "Well," I said, "You're gonna have to sell your broodmares, you know, get (laughs) rid of 'em." That's easier said than done, you know. But he had a trainer and uh, you know--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: -- that kind of advised him and they were--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: -- thinking they were gonna, knew how to do it, different kind of set up than what--

SMITH: --right--.

TEATER: -- he'd had. He had just a few broodmares and then he had a, a nice little training barn.

SMITH: Right.

TEATER: You know. And they got to thinking that how they could, you know, have all these broodmares, have the babies and--

SMITH: --yeah--

TEATER: -- you know, and it just ruined it for him--

SMITH: --ah--

TEATER: --you know.

SMITH: What was his name?

TEATER: Mr. Townsend.

SMITH: Townsend. Okay.

TEATER: He was from Iowa I believe.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: Nicest man you ever knew in your life.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: You ever met him you'd just love him.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: I don't even know whether he's still alive or not.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: Last time I saw him, which was been, I think probably about-- I bet he'd probably still be alive. Really nice man.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: Ray Townsend was his name. Nice fellow.

SMITH: Okay. Okay. Hmm.

TEATER: But he got too many of 'em. And you don't enjoy 'em as much when you have that many, so many, you know.

SMITH: Is, is that how you felt up at North Ridge?

TEATER: Yes. It was just, it was too many. You know, you start looking at the mares and, you know, you see 20 baby colts--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: -- in one viewing. And then in a week later, ten days later, you'd see ten new baby colts. And you'd say, "Well now what, what did those other first 20 look like?"

SMITH: Right.

TEATER: You know, my memory's not that good. I, you know, a real outstanding one--

SMITH: --right--

TEATER: -- you'd remember it was out of such and such a mare and it, but just the average--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: -- you couldn't get your fingers on 'em, you know.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: 'Cause they don't make that much of an imprint in your mind that you can--

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: -- remember 'em, you know. My mind's not very good. --(Smith laughs)--

SMITH: Why did they have--

TEATER: --So I was there for ten years and then we, we sold out there.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And I had a lovely bunch of horses there. I had Belle Elegant that won, uh--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: -- the Five-Gaited Championship down at, uh, at Louisville.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And--

SMITH: --Is that when you won, when you were up there?

TEATER: I won the Five-Gaited Championship when I was there, and I won the Three-Gaited Championship at, when I was at Rock Creek.

SMITH: Okay, okay. Hmm.

TEATER: Going back to the Van Lenneps, I'll tell you a cute story--

SMITH: --okay--

TEATER: -- real fast. Uh, you know, very conservative.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: Very conservative, you know.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: So Rikki, the girl, Mr. Van Lennep's daughter, she had this little black pony called Lady Kenmore (??)--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: -- Hackney. Prettiest pony. Solid black and just shined, you know.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And our colors were maroon and gray.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: Very conservative.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And, when the Hackney's would show Mrs. Van Lennep's Hackney's would show, the groom or the trainer always wore a black suit. Which I'd seen for years--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --you know. So when I came back to Dodges from, from uh,--

SMITH: --Rock Creek--

TEATER: -- Rock Creek, I had this little black pony for her. And we went to Madison Square Garden. Well, that fall before we went up there, I saw this sport jacket and it was a maroonish color. Uh, kind of a dark maroon. Just a little bit darker than our colors, stable 02:14:00colors. And I thought it was the prettiest sport coat I'd ever seen. And I was thinking about that black pony--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: -- and I'd wear, you know, to head the pony, I'd wear black slacks and this dark maroon that would go with it. The thing--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: -- the lap robe, you know.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: Everything would just match, I thought. And then-- did-- in the 15 years that I worked for 'em--

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: -- nobody ever said anything to me. I mean you could be last and you could be first and then--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --nobody'd say anything, you know. So we get up to New York, and the black pony shows. It's an afternoon class.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: You know. So I put this sport coat on--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: -- and go out and head the pony. And she wins the class.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: It was at night. I'm sorry, it was at night.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: She wins the class. Beautiful. Made a beautiful show.

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: ----------(??) the ring. I'm back in the barn walking around and everything. And here comes Mr. Van Lennep. Very unusual, you know.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: Especially at New York, because, you know, they usually go out to the, you know--

SMITH: --yeah--

TEATER: -- have something to eat after their class and--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: -- you know. Well, here comes Mr. Van Lennep. He comes up and shakes hands and "Nice show." And he's stand-, he, great big fellow. Tall,--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: --kind of looked down all the time. And 'what's he thinking about? What's he want, you know.' And he starts in to talking, a long spiel about, --(clears throat)-- "You know, uh," --(clears throat)- -he'd start to say it then he would-- "Ed, uh, --(clears throat)--you 02:16:00know, it's always kind of been a custom that you wear a black suit when you head the pony." And I said, "Yes, sir. I understand that." And I said, "I probably should have known better." (Smith laughs) "Oh," he said, "uh, uh, uh, uh, that's, that's all right," said, "Uh, uh, it's just kind of been a custom, custom." I said, "Yes, sir." I said (Smith laughs) "That's the way it'll be." So there, I was so deflated (Smith laughs) 'cause I just thought that ----------(??) coat--

SMITH: --oh shoot--

TEATER: --I love clothes anyway. And I just thought that coat just--

SMITH: --aw--

TEATER: --was just the match, you know,--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: -- the little black pony and the black slacks, black shoes and this--[telephone rings]-- kind of a maroon--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: -- a real pretty, oh, it was a beautiful coat.

SMITH: Aw.

TEATER: And it was stable colors. No, got to have black.

SMITH: No. Didn't get to wear it again.

TEATER: I thought it was so conservative that it, that uh, I might get a compliment on it --(both laugh)-- from my boss.

SMITH: No.

TEATER: No. That was the wrong thing to do.

SMITH: Hmm. -----------(??)--

TEATER: --So then after I got up, through-----------(??) with Rock Creek- - , had a lot of nice horses there, --[noise]-- world's champions.

SMITH: Yeah?

TEATER: Stallions that we produced and did well and baby colts did well and the ki-, they had three children that rode.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And they all won world's championships and--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: -- hmm--

SMITH: I've read about Rikki, but I've not read about ----------(??)--

TEATER: About who?

SMITH: About Rikki.

TEATER: No, Rikki--

SMITH: Oh, she's--

TEATER: -- she's with Dodge's.

SMITH: -- the Van Lennep. Okay, okay.

TEATER: Uh, Rikki Van Lennep is a Dodge.

SMITH: Right, right.

TEATER: I'm talking about the Groves now.

SMITH: Groves, okay, okay.

TEATER: And, uh, we won, we did, we had real good show records up there. 02:18:00And the, all the kids won worlds championships and--

SMITH: --and what were their names?

TEATER: Uh--

SMITH: --sorry --(laughs)--

TEATER: I just went blank. Don't worry about it.

SMITH: --(laughs)-- It's okay. We'll get back to that--

TEATER: --Betsy--

SMITH: -- in the next interview.

TEATER: Betsy was a--

SMITH: --okay--

TEATER: -- the youngest girl. And Skip's a--

SMITH: --okay--

TEATER: -- is the son, young son. Well, they're all about the same age. And, uh, Cathy was the oldest girl.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: Cathy, Betsy and Skip--

SMITH: --and Skip.

TEATER: And Mrs. Groves won a worlds championship--

SMITH: --oh--

TEATER: -- uh, with her pony, a driving pony.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: And, uh, and then I was fortunate enough to win with Belle that year, one year--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: -- the second year I was there, I guess. --[noise]-- And, uh, well, Cathy, I think she won two worlds championships. And Betsy was 02:19:00reserve. She never did win a worlds, the, the whole ball of wax. But Skip won with a, his roadster pony.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: So.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: So we had-- it was very successful. And, uh, uh, they had over bought in certain ways--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: -- you know. Some advice was not very good there at the first to 'em. And uh, it, and then, strange thing about it was that they had a horse called Super Supreme that was-- he'd get a nice horse every once in a while, and he was a full brother to Supreme Sultan.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And Tom Moore had both horses for Mr. Ruxer.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: Had Supreme Sultan, Super Supreme in training. And they went up and looked at 'em. They were the same price. I think $50,000.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: Same price, have either one of 'em, $50,000. And Mrs. Groves asked Tom Moore which he, one he thought would make the best breeding horse. He said Super Supreme. And of course Supreme Sultan just was the king.

SMITH: Right. Right.

TEATER: Just kind, just kind of a bad omen right there at the start--

SMITH: --yeah--

TEATER: --you know. Where if they'd have said, "Well," if he'd have said, they would have bought Sultan.

SMITH: Hmm, hmm.

TEATER: And it could have been a, a big story telling difference there, you know.

SMITH: Very different. Very different.

TEATER: If they'd a had that stallion, you know.

SMITH: Hmm.

TEATER: 'Cause they had a lot of mares.

SMITH: Um-hm. Um-hm. So why did you leave? Why did you leave North Ridge?

TEATER: Well, uh, they kind of overspent.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: Uh, they bought so many Thoroughbreds.

SMITH: Oh.

TEATER: And they bought-- well, you know, they bought Seattle Slew. They owned Seattle Slew for a while.

SMITH: Oh, okay. ----------(??)--

TEATER: Uh, well, when he was racing, they bought 50 some percent of him--

SMITH: --percent of him, okay.

TEATER: When he got ready to be a stallion.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: And, uh, but they got, it, it didn't work out, the Thoroughbred--

SMITH: --um-hm--

TEATER: -- business didn't for 'em. They, they lost. And then their business had some problems. Uh, they were the second largest construction company in the world when--

SMITH: --oh--

TEATER: -- I went to work for 'em. And they had some business plans that didn't go right.

SMITH: Um-hm, um-hm.

TEATER: And the business ----------(??).

SMITH: What was the cons-, the name of the construction--

TEATER: --SJ Groves--

SMITH: --SJ, okay--

TEATER: -- Construction Company.

SMITH: Okay.

TEATER: And that did-- it was a family business for, Franklin's my age or a little older.

SMITH: Um-hm.

TEATER: And his father was the-- made it big.

SMITH: The start of it, yeah. Okay. Okay. So they were getting out of the business? Out of the Saddlebred business?

TEATER: Well, oh, it, they got out of everything.

SMITH: Oh okay.

TEATER: They had to.

SMITH: Okay. Okay. Well, I'll tell you what, we've been talking almost two and a half hours. So why don't we stop today and, uh, start there--

TEATER: I won't have----------(??) --

SMITH: -- start with you coming back.

TEATER: Hm?

SMITH: And start with when you came back to Kentucky at the next interview, that work?

TEATER: Yeah, well, if you think you got anything worth it. --(Smith 02:23:00laughs)--

[End of interview.]