Partial Transcript: Okay, this is Kim Lady Smith.
Segment Synopsis: Murrell discusses the horse, Nosey Nan, who was a mare. He says that she was very pleasant and was easy to care for. He says that she was in foal every year and he took care of many of her offspring. He tells the story of how she developed a brain cyst and how he took her to Ohio State to receive surgery. He says that he took care of her every night and everything was a success. He describes how he took other sick horses to Ohio State, and horses to be sold to Texas.
Keywords: Horse breeding; Horse farms; Horse industry; Horses; Nosey Nan (Race horse)
Subjects: Horse breeding; Horse farms; Horse industry; Horses
Partial Transcript: Did you ever think about leaving this area? Why did you stay with the Firestones?
Segment Synopsis: Murrell discusses his decision to stay at Big Sink Farm after it was sold to the Firestone family. He says that he was attached to the farm. He says that he liked consistency. He also discusses his pay and his salary changes over time with new owners.
Keywords: Big Sink Farm; Firestone family; Horse breeding; Horse farms; Horse industry; Horses; Ownership
Subjects: Horse breeding; Horse farms; Horse industry; Horses
Partial Transcript: Tell me a little bit more about Larry Bramlage.
Segment Synopsis: Murrell discusses his relationship with Dr. Larry Bramlage. He said that they had a very good relationship and that they worked together for a long time. He has a lot of respect for him and his work with the horses.
Keywords: Dr. Bramlage; Dr. Larry Bramlage; Horse breeding; Horse farms; Horse industry; Horses
Subjects: Horse breeding; Horse farms; Horse industry; Horses; Veterinarians; Veterinary medicine
Partial Transcript: Uh, Secretariat was my number one.
Segment Synopsis: Murrell discusses Secretariat. He describes him as his favorite horse. He took a mare to be bred with Secretariat. He says that Secretariat knew how to pose for the camera. He also discusses breeding mares with Secretariat.
Keywords: Horse breeding; Horse farms; Horse industry; Horses; Secretariat (Race horse)
Subjects: Horse breeding; Horse farms; Horse industry; Horses; Secretariat (Horse), 1970-1989.
Partial Transcript: Other than Secretariat, who were some of the more popular stallions that you ended up working with through the mares or otherwise?
Segment Synopsis: Murrell discusses the popular stallions that he worked with while breeding mares. He says that he worked with horses such as Bold Ruler and War Jeep. He also discusses working with Genuine Risk and her success.
Keywords: Bold Ruler (Race horse); Genuine Risk (Race horse); Horse breeding; Horse farms; Horse industry; Horses; War Jeep (Race horse)
Subjects: Horse breeding; Horse farms; Horse industry; Horses
Partial Transcript: Um, I wanted to ask you about another vet you mentioned last time.
Segment Synopsis: Murrell discusses the veterinarian Bob Copeland. He describes several instances when they worked together on horses. He says that their wives became close friends. He also describes how one of the horses that he took care of was stolen. He says that she was later found and continued breeding.
Keywords: Dr. Bob Copeland; Dr. Robert Copeland; Horse breeding; Horse farms; Horse industry; Horses; Theft
Subjects: Horse breeding; Horse farms; Horse industry; Horses; Veterinarians; Veterinary medicine
Partial Transcript: Tell me about coming to work for Three Chimneys.
Segment Synopsis: Murrell discusses Three Chimneys Farm and the process by which he began working for them. He says that Dan Rosenburg always admired him and that he always wanted him to work for him. He says that Three Chimneys leased Big Sink Farm and that they kept him on as an employee after the lease was up. He says that he started off as a foreman who worked with the yearlings. He also discusses some of his coworkers and his relationships with them.
Keywords: Big Sink Farm; Horse breeding; Horse farms; Horse industry; Horses; Three Chimneys Farm
Subjects: Horse breeding; Horse farms; Horse industry; Horses
Partial Transcript: So how's the farm changed since you were there?
Segment Synopsis: Murrell discusses how Three Chimneys Farm has changed since he began working there. He says that they have grown tremendously and have constructed many new barns and facilities. He says that they have gained many horses, specifically yearlings.
Keywords: Horse breeding; Horse farms; Horse industry; Horses; Three Chimneys Farm
Subjects: Horse breeding; Horse farms; Horse industry; Horses
Partial Transcript: How, uh, how different is it working for Chim--Three Chimneys than where, where you worked before?
Segment Synopsis: Murrell says that Three Chimneys is a great place to work. He says that Three Chimneys does everything the right way and that they are honest and moral in their business. He describes how they have taken care of him. He discusses how the farm paid for a grave plot for his mother-in-law. He also says that they gave him a big celebration for his 65th birthday. He says that Three Chimneys is a place where people want to work.
Keywords: Employers; Ethical; Ethics; Horse breeding; Horse farms; Horse industry; Horses; Jobs; Occupations
Subjects: Employment--Kentucky; Horse breeding; Horse farms; Horse industry; Horses
Partial Transcript: So you still work with yearlings?
Segment Synopsis: Murrell describes his duties at Three Chimneys Farms. He says that he works with the yearlings but he does not got to the horse sales. He says that what he does now is show younger workers how to care for horses. He says that his favorite thing he has done with horses was achieving success in getting most of the mares in foal when in season. He says that one of his toughest tasks he has had to do was to take care of a mare named Gamrosia and getting her in foal.
Keywords: Horse breeding; Horse farms; Horse industry; Horses; Jobs duties; Responsibilities; Three Chimneys Farm
Subjects: Horse breeding; Horse farms; Horse industry; Horses
Partial Transcript: I want to ask you this though, about being an African American in the industry.
Segment Synopsis: Murrell says that he has not really seen a change of segregation in the horse industry. He says that it really did not open up any benefits for him in the horse industry. He says that it was never really a problem for him. He says that Hispanics have replaced many of the African Americans in the horse industry. He says that he does not know of any African Americans his age that still work with horses.
Keywords: Horse breeding; Horse farms; Horse industry; Horses; Minorities; Race; Three Chimneys Farm
Subjects: African Americans in horse racing; African Americans--Segregation; Horse breeding; Horse farms; Horse industry; Horses; Integration; Race; Race discrimination; Three Chimneys Farm
Partial Transcript: Um, who were the people that you most admired?
Segment Synopsis: Murrell discusses people he admires the most in the horse industry. He mentions and describes coworkers, owners, employers, and trainers.
Keywords: Horse breeding; Horse farms; Horse industry; Horses; Three Chimneys Farm
Subjects: Horse breeding; Horse farms; Horse industry; Horses
SMITH: Okay. This is Kim Lady Smith, and what is today? August fifth?
MURRELL: August the sixth.
SMITH: August the sixth two thousand and eight and I am at the homeof Butch Murrell. This is our second interview for the oral history project on the horse industry at U.K. And, uh, as I said, I was listening to your interview again this morning--
SMITH: --and, uh, it's pretty good. We covered a lot more territorythan I actually thought we had, but uh, um, but there's still a lot to cover.
SMITH: We never really got to Three Chimneys. We focused a lot on uh,Big Sink--
SMITH: --and when you worked for Mr. Benjamin.
MURRELL: Right. Right.
SMITH: But, uh, there were a couple of stories at the end of ourconversation--
SMITH: --after I turned off the recorder that--
SMITH: --you were sharing, and I want to go back to some of those, andI think the first one was about a horse that, I may not have the name right, Nosey Nan?
MURRELL: Yes, Nosey Nan. You got that right.
MURRELL: And uh, this mare, Nosey Nan, she was uh, uh by one of the old00:01:00stallions called Nantallah, which you stand stallion at Claiborne Farm back when the Hancock's was all living.
SMITH: Nan-, say that name.
MURRELL: Nantallah was the name of the stallion.
MURRELL: And this mare, Nosey Nan, was out of a mare called Aphonia, wasthe dam, was the dam.
MURRELL: And uh, she was a great stakes producing mare. I meaneverything that, that she had ran.
SMITH: Who owned her?
MURRELL: Uh, the Benjamin's. The Benjamin's owned her.
MURRELL: And then uh, all the years that I took care of threegenerations out of this Nosey Nan mare. Three generations, her daughters. Three generations. And uh, I'm trying to think of uh, I was trying to think of the daughters' that was out of this mare, but uh, I've gotten to get a little rusty on my remembrance.
SMITH: That's okay. To remember all the names is tough.
MURRELL: But uh, but I did take care of three daughters of generations,you know, out of this Nosey Nan, but uh, to get with Nosey Nan, she, 00:02:00she was uh, as I say was uh, was a real nice mare to be around, the kind of a mare that you could sleep in the stall with all night.
MURRELL: Uh, everybody liked her and this mare here she would get infoal year, after year, after year. I mean, you know, there was no such thing as missing a year. Some mares after they, you breed them so long they would just give themselves a year off, but this mare here, would just get in foal repeatedly. So, uh, this particular year, she didn't get in foal, and they put her in the November sale at Keeneland.
MURRELL: And she formed this big mass, a cyst, they said next to herbrain, and just as she got ready to go to the sale ring she started this bleeding out of her nostrils, and so everybody was concerned, and naturally I was too, you know. Cause she was one of my babies. (laughs) And uh, anyway, uh, Mr. Will Farish come down to the barn and, and looked at this mare, and he knew what she had done all, all her off springs, you know, what they had done. So, he was really 00:03:00interested in this mare, so he, Mr. Will Farish, spoke up and said, "Let's do not take her through the ring." Said, "I'll pay $125,000 for her on the spot." So, she did not go through the ring. Bring her back to, to the farm. This was when Alydar was still around. Alydar, at, the Calumet.
MURRELL: So, they go on, and um, that breeding season come along, thiswas in November, and then that next spring, breeding season come around uh, and that fall, uh, in the next year bred her to Alydar, there she go. She right back in foal, and then uh, so this, this they brought her back to the farm. And uh, during the fall of that year, she started this bleeding again. So they had Dr. Franks which is deceased now, Craig Franks, he's deceased, and then Dr., uh Copelan, Bobby Copelan, he was on the scene, and I thought there was Dr., maybe Dr. Ed Fallon, those three, cause he was the vet here then, Ed Fallon was.
MURRELL: Anyway, uh, they decided that they was going to have to, thismare was going to have to go, needed to go to Ohio State in order for 00:04:00to for the specialists up there.
SMITH: Now, she was in foal at this time?
MURRELL: She was in foal, carrying this foal.
SMITH: With Alydar.
MURRELL: Alydar. Which was very valuable, very valuable. You know,they-they-they priced her somewhere around a million dollars -- back in the seventies you know, so this mare was, I mean she was the talk of the town in Ohio. But, anyway, uh, so Dr. Copelan recommended, and Dr. Franks said, "You know," said, said "this mare knows Butch." And uh, said, "We need to maybe send him to Ohio State with her." Because up there you have all kinds of diseased animals that comes in and out of there, you know, at that place, and it was my job to make sure none of these, these diseased animals could get close to her. So that even with her being, having surgery, so that uh, this, this wouldn't be something that would, would catch onto her. Anyway, um, we goes up there and they, they do a uh, do the surgery, and they have to have a trachea on this mare. So my job was to stay at the uh, at the university at night, on her ward. Make sure these two or three o'clock animals don't come in with disease around this mare, you know, keep her 00:05:00safe. And, now, now, I done it. I was on like needles and pins all night. They sent my wife with me to keep me company. They put us up in a motel, and done, we really enjoyed it, and then all the students uh, hears about this mare on campus up there.
MURRELL: And we was very popular with the, with the, with the studentsup there, you know, this million dollar mare. It was all over.
MURRELL: So, anyway, the uh, everything went good. Uh,
SMITH: Now, you stayed every night?
MURRELL: I stayed up there for eleven days and nights.
SMITH: And you spent the night with the horse?
MURRELL: I spent the, the night with the horse. Daytime with my wife,night with the horse, (both laugh) So--
SMITH: --seems a little backwards, but-- (Murrell laughs)
MURRELL: --but that's the way. What it was is during the daytime therewas people there uh, to keep everything straightened and during the daytime there was people that worked the wards that took care of all that in the daytime and I slept, and then when nighttime was when I stayed with her, you know--
MURRELL: --to keep here safe during the night. But it all went well,and uh, uh, Mr. Farish had told me after this mare returned home, 00:06:00everything was good, he had told me that he sent several horses up there and he would lose them because of, of some kind of disease or something. Salmonella or something like that would set in. Anyway, it went good, and, and uh, he rewarded me uh, really nicely. I mean really nicely, and I still thank him today for that, you know.
MURRELL: And he, I consider him still as my friend. Even though Idon't work for him, but we was always close though, because I took care of his mares for over seventeen years at Big Sink before there was a Lane's End.
MURRELL: And uh, so Will and I we all, we all go back, and uh, the, allthe people that works over there started out at Big Sink with me.
SMITH: Oh, really?
MURRELL: Yes, Mike, manager Mike Cline, stallion managers, broodmaremanagers, they all worked with me. Even the trainer, Neil Howard, they all worked there in Big Sink with me. So--
SMITH: --so, you trained a lot of them--
MURRELL: --so, they, they, actually yes, yes, yes, they did. Yes, theydid. So uh, but they, we all are still close today, and uh, and I appreciate what I learned from them and hope they learned something 00:07:00from me. (laughs) But uh--
SMITH: The horse, what was wrong with her, exactly?
MURRELL: This it was, it was uh, and I don't, er medically I couldn't, Ican't say it in words but it was something next to her brain, and this had to be surgically moved. And uh, and uh, and it went well. It went well. 'Course, uh, I-I can't remember now what happened. I think, I know the mare didn't die while I, while she was in my care, but I think in the, in the, in the turn over of the farms, train uh, uh, uh, changing owners, and then Nosey got out of my, got out of my care that way, you know, 'cause I-I went on to Three Chimneys, and Big Sink.
SMITH: Did William Farish keep own--
MURRELL: --yes, yes--
SMITH: --maintain ownership?
MURRELL: That's, that's the, that's the key. She went, she was withWill Farish, that's, that's what it was. After she, after they, Lane's End started up then she went with Will Farish. That's the way it was. Yes, yes. That's the reason why she got out of my care.
MURRELL: Yes, but uh, that, that's a real story, and uh, and uh, therewere several good daughters, and then I have to go ahead on about this same family. There was a daughter of this Nosey Nan that uh, had a, 00:08:00this is how Dr. Bramlage and I come in contact.
MURRELL: He was at Ohio State, and the doctor that, that done thesurgery on Nosey Nan, his name was Dr. Robinson, was the one that done her. But uh, this filly was on the racetrack out of uh, Nosey Nan, and she done a chip on her knee. So, they uh, they wanted to send her to Ohio State for surgery. Well this, at this point, uh, Lane's End had started up, and Mike Cline was over there, and uh, 'course Mr. Benjamin was still living then. So, Will Farish calls Mr. Benjamin, and wanted to know, since, since, since Nosey Nan done so well, wanted to know if I could go to Columbus, Ohio and meet his filly up there at Ohio State. So, (laughs) so, he said, "Yes," you know. So, I had to go to the airport to get a rental car. They rent me a car at the Budget Rental, and I drives to Columbus and meet this filly up there. And the surgery went well with me and Dr. Bramlage sat up all night long with this filly, I mean, and uh, too bad that that salmonella-- 00:09:00
MURRELL: --it set in, and and we, we, we couldn't save her.
SMITH: She got that from one of the other, the other horses?
MURRELL: Just, just the salmonella sometime it just, just uh, it justuh, where they get like diarrhea and stuff and it, there's no control for it, you know.
MURRELL: And she just uh, I mean, it's, it's--
SMITH: --she died there?
MURRELL: She, she died, and uh, and uh, 'course they, they take me overto the pathologist's lab. Where, this is where they got all these dead animals, and where they, where they do autopsies. And they were showing me what had happened, 'cause naturally, you know, me just being a groom and (laughs) they talking all these big words medically, you know, about some parts and things. I today, I don't have no clue what happened. (laughs)
SMITH: I can understand that.
MURRELL: But I did see monkeys opened up, and I seen pigs, and I seeneverything up there, you know. So, it was, it was an experience that you never, never will forget. Believe me.
SMITH: Now was that the, what they did here normally, if there was aproblem they didn't think they could handle here -- they would go to Ohio State?
MURRELL: Yes, yes that what it was then, yes, back then.
SMITH: Do we not have good surgical--
MURRELL: --I think they got the facilities and stuff right here now, thatthey can, they can do what they did at Ohio State now. 'Cause you got 00:10:00the, the Rood and Riddle's has all been -- this is all new here, now.
MURRELL: And everybody, all the veterinary things is really updated now,you know. So, I think they can handle just about anything, just about. They still send once in awhile to Ohio State.
MURRELL: Um, um, but uh, I was trying to think of uh, oh, and then I gotanother, I got another uh, story to tell. Even uh, you know the, the uh, for Mr. Farish I took some horses to Houston, Texas, uh, and uh, we actually, I actually was at the Astrodome in Houston.
MURRELL: Yes, back in the '70s, and uh, and this was a really funny uh,uh, they had a sale down there, and naturally, we had our horses really looking good, I mean, but you, some of the, some of the, the cowboy style, they didn't, they didn't, they didn't uh, do it the way the Kentuckians did, you know. And this was really funny. All the tack and stuff that I took down, they never seen some of the stuff we've had, you know. (laughs) And I was just like a tack shop. Every, if I, if I, if I had a price, I could have sold everything down there. (both laugh) But, but it was a, that was, that was really, that was something 00:11:00that I--
SMITH: --Was that a Fasig-Tipton sale?
MURRELL: No, it was uh, it was uh, what they call an October Sale thatthey had in Houston then. I don't know, I don't think they have that no more. They discontinued that.
MURRELL: But the old Astrodome, the Houston Astro, Astrodome, which isclosed down now--
MURRELL: --but I did, they did have a sale, a horse sale in there, andI had the pleasure of touring that, going on a tour in that, and that was, that's something that I never will, it's beautiful, it was really beautiful. So, horses have been really, really, really good to me, and as, as I said uh--
MURRELL: --I've dealt with the, been on national TV with, with horses,handling the first crops of Secretariat babies and stuff like that.
SMITH: Oh, yeah.
MURRELL: Sports Illustrated, you know, I was, yes, so, horses have beenreally, really, really good to me.
SMITH: It sounds like you have been good to horses.
MURRELL: Yes, I, well, they, they, they uh, uh, people have --has-hastold me that I've been the kind of person that has the, you know, you have five senses? But around horses uh, I've had people tell me say you, I've developed what you call a sixth sense.
MURRELL: And there's some things that I could do around horses that some00:12:00people just couldn't do.
MURRELL: Yes. So, uh, uh, horses been really, really good to me, youknow, this was going to be my career. And my dad always told me, said, "Whatever you do, you know, try to be good at it."
MURRELL: And that was my goal, is to, you know, be the best I can be,you know.
MURRELL: So, yes, ma'am. This, this is where I am today. (laughs)
SMITH: Did you um, uh, did you ever consider after Lane's End--
SMITH: --and so many people went over there, and Mr. Benjamin was--
MURRELL: --right, stayed here--
SMITH: --was still here, but the farm wasn't quite--
MURRELL: --right, right--
SMITH: --Did you ever think about leaving this area? Why did you staywith the Firestones?
MURRELL: Uh, I stayed here, well I guess, you know, you kind of getattached to one place.
MURRELL: And I was the type of person, if you noticed, on three farmsalmost fifty years, that I wasn't the type of person that liked to switch.
MURRELL: So, uh, uh, I always was, you know, most times when I, when Istart a job, I'm usually there.
MURRELL: Unless they run me away. (laughs) But I've never, never beenfired and I never filled out an application for a job in my life. 00:13:00
MURRELL: Never. (laughs)
SMITH: Well, that's pretty good.
MURRELL: Never. I've never been on uh, unemployment. I've never drawnunemployment in my life.
MURRELL: Period. And I've never filled out an application for a job,(laughs) because back then your reputation was your application back then. You see, so uh, as I told you, you know, when I started out with horses, I was making forty dollars, and that's history.
MURRELL: And then (laughs) and then when I, when I, when I uh, went fromforty dollars to seventy dollars, that was top money. (laughs)
SMITH: When did--[telephone rings]-- oh, I'll pause.
[Pause in recording.]
MURRELL: All right.
SMITH: Okay, um, you were talking about the money that you were making.
MURRELL: Yes. Yes.
SMITH: At, you were paid when you started working at Big Sink in '66,you were paid in cash.
MURRELL: Paid in cash, yes.
SMITH: When did that change?
MURRELL: Uh, it changed approximately, prob-, let me think. When didthat change? It changed hmm, I think that changed probably in about 00:14:00around '70, 1970--
MURRELL: --or '71 when that changed, and then they started payingindividual checks.
MURRELL: But, as I told you, uh, Lucien Campbell, I think I told you--
SMITH: --yeah, yeah--
MURRELL: --about what he done some things he done with the cash money.
SMITH: Right. Right. (Murrell laughs)
MURRELL: But the, and that was true. That was true. But uh, but it, itworked out better for us when they started paying each--
SMITH: --yeah --
MURRELL: --make the check out to each individual, you know, and you gotwhat you had coming. But uh--
SMITH: --Were you still paid weekly?
MURRELL: It was paid, paid weekly, and then 'course when the, when the,when, when the Benjamin's sold the farm to the Firestones, which I told you that, uh, and I told you about the Genuine Risk. I had Genuine Risk. Did I tell you that?
MURRELL: That I had Genuine Risk. I told you I had her over there. Uh,they used to pay every two weeks, and then 'course, me and my wife we would budget our, our pay, you know--
MURRELL: --as weekly. What we would do, we would split it in half,and you use one of it part then on one half this week and one half the next week.
MURRELL: That's what we always done. My wife has been a, she's been avery good uh, she, I just let her have the money. (both laugh) I just go out and work and bring it to her, hand her the check. 00:15:00
SMITH: That's right. That's a lot of families like that, I think.(Murrell laughs)
MURRELL: Yes, well, she's done a, she's done an excellent job. Okay.Back to the uh, back to the uh, horse industry, um, where did I stop off at? I stop off anything, 'bout anything?
MURRELL: --What did I do?
SMITH: Well, we were talking about uh--
MURRELL: Was it Nosey Nan, or was I through with her? I was throughwith her.
SMITH: We, I think, except for, tell me a little more about LarryBramlage, about meeting him.
MURRELL: Okay. Dr. Bramlage uh, uh, when I, when I, when I meet thisfilly up there, and we just kind of, that's how he and I really got close, is because we spent together with this one filly. We wanted her to, really to survive. And uh, I mean they had these big, big gallons of fluid, fluid IVs and things running into her trying, trying to help this filly, but we just, it just, it was just a uphill battle, you know.
MURRELL: But uh, that's mostly the-the-the-the uh, mostly the uh, uh,run-ins or whatever, whatever words you'd use that I had with him, that-- 00:16:00
MURRELL: --on that experience, yeah. And then he uh, but every year,every, every sales at Keeneland, he and Dr. Copelan, Dr. Franks, and a lot of the Hagyard vets and things that knew me then, they all would come to my barn, and the trainers and things, everybody just knew me.
MURRELL: And they would it a point to come and shake my hand, you know.
MURRELL: And uh, I was just that kind of a, kind of a, kind of a person,you know. And uh, uh--
SMITH: Now when did Dr. Bramlage, do you know when he came to Kentucky?
MURRELL: He been here, I think, Rood and Riddle's been up there, they'sbeen here for, oh my goodness, I expect ten to, probably ten to fifteen years now, I'd have to say, every bit of that.
SMITH: Um-hm. Did you work with him as a vet after he came here?
MURRELL: No. No, 'cause he, when he came here, they started up thisclinic--
SMITH: --okay, so he was--
MURRELL: --the equine clinic, and yes, I'm still here on the farm, but westill, as a matter of fact, I was talking to him a couple of days ago, last week I was. And I told him about uh, that he may be interviewed.
SMITH: Yeah, that's fine. (Murrell laughs)
MURRELL: I told him that and uh, he said, girl, he's playing with me,00:17:00and he said, "Butch who? I don't know no Butch." (both laugh) He said, "I would, I will talk to her, though." He was, he was busy, 'cause he was heading to surgery--
SMITH: --yeah, yeah--
MURRELL: -- when I was up there. And you haven't had a chance to talkto him, yet, have you?
SMITH: No, no.
MURRELL: Yeah, so, he said, but he did say he would.
SMITH: Good. Good.
MURRELL: He did, he did say, he did uh, 'cause I mentioned it. I toldhim maybe, he may be getting a call or something for an interview.
SMITH: Yeah, he will. He will.
MURRELL: So, he said, he said he would.
SMITH: He, he's uh, near the top of the list, actually.
MURRELL: Yeah, all right.
SMITH: So, hopefully we'll get to him.
MURRELL: Yeah, yeah, that's great.
SMITH: Yeah. 'Cause I've only interviewed Fallon, well Ed Fallon andBill McGee. I interviewed both of them.
MURRELL: Okay. Okay.
SMITH: So, they're the only two vets I've talked to so far.
MURRELL: Two of, the only two vets. And like I say, some of these, someof these, uh, I've just talked to, well, I got a friend, neighbor right here there's a vet with Hagyards'.
MURRELL: His name's Jeff Pumphrey. He lives right next door, right downhere, right down the road here. And uh, he, he had said, he had, did you talk to Bill McGee?
MURRELL: You say? Well, that must have been, that must have been you.That-that-that was you then he was telling me. 'Cause it was just the other day he was telling me, said uh, say he told this, told this person to go and talk to Bill McGee. (laughs)
SMITH: Yeah, and I interviewed Bill back, I'd say two months ago, so--00:18:00
MURRELL: --maybe, maybe, maybe--
SMITH: --maybe somebody else wants to do that--
MURRELL: --maybe it's somebody else, but I know he mentioned uh, Dr.McGee, and I didn't know if it was you or not but uh, but he said he told--
SMITH: --he may not I've already done it--
SMITH: --he may not know I've done it.
MURRELL: Yeah, but uh, well, I know, I knew several of vets. Some ofthem, like a lot of them dead. Did you ever heard of Dr. Harthill?
MURRELL: He, he and, he used to do some work here, and I've, I've, I'vehelped some horses with him.
SMITH: Was he a good vet?
MURRELL: Oh, he was, he was, he was (laughs) he was one of, he probablywas one of the best race track vets around, and you - I won't say what I want to say. Well--
SMITH: Oh, now, I've heard a lot of stories about Dr. Harthill. So, Idon't think you would be saying anything that uh--
MURRELL: --anything that wasn't true?
SMITH: Well, I don't know if it's true or not, but there a lot ofstories about Dr. Harthill.
MURRELL: I've heard, I'm sure you heard about uh, uh, the Derby?
MURRELL: Back to the Derby, Dancer's Image and Forward Pass, and allthat kind of stuff?
MURRELL: Yeah. Okay, then, I don't need to say no more about that.(Smith laughs)
SMITH: Well, I don't know. What's your story about it? (Murrell laughs)
MURRELL: Well, I'd just, I'd just, I would be repeating what you heard,'cause that's all I know is what, what-what-what was on TV, and you 00:19:00know what I'm saying. It's nothing, nothing personal that uh, I had uh, had my hands on nothing, you know, just, just from, from what, from the uh, from the uh, news, TV and--
SMITH: --everybody had some suspicions--
MURRELL: --everybody had suspicions, and, and, and just the only thingabout it is that I was, I was a groom working with horses during that time when that happened, and naturally I knew, you know. Uh, the, the see, watching a lot of the John Henry races I've seen a lot of that kind of stuff on TV, you know. Uh, the uh, Fargo, all those kinds of horses I've-I've-I've watched races and things, you know, a lot of old stuff. Uh, Secretariat was my number one. He was, he was the number one. I mean he was probably one of the best, best that I've seen. Yes, yes.
SMITH: Yeah. Did you ever see him uh, in person?
MURRELL: I actually did see him. I took uh, mares--
SMITH: --yeah, to be--
MURRELL: --took mares down to the stable for him, to be bred to him.
MURRELL: I sure did.
SMITH: Was he impressive?
MURRELL: He was uh, really, really big. They called him 'Big Red' youknow, and he was sharp. I mean, he was class, and uh, I mean, this guy, he just stood. He knew, he knew how to pose for the camera, 'cause he, he was very popular, you know. 00:20:00
MURRELL: Some horses just know when they're special, and he was kindof, he was kind of like that. But uh, going to Claiborne Farm, going back to Claiborne Farm, you know, I used to ride the vans, take all the mares to the breeding sheds. I've been to several, have been around to several farms. They've changed names, now, lot of them been sold.
MURRELL: And they're new farms with new names, I couldn't, if you'dasked me some farm's name, I wouldn't know because you know, I don't do that no more, you know.
MURRELL: It's been over, right at fifteen years since I been to thebreeding shed, and naturally, everything's changed, you know--
SMITH: --oh yeah--
MURRELL: --those years, but uh--
SMITH: --but you helped out in the breeding shed when you were --------(??)
MURRELL: Yes, yes, at uh, at uh, matter of fact, first two farms Iworked in the breeding shed--
SMITH: --King Ranch--
MURRELL: --The first farm was Bluegrass Heights when Dr. Horace Davis Iwas telling you about?
MURRELL: Yeah. I worked in a breeding shed with my brother-in-law upthere, back then, and I used to, used to be what they call the, the tail man, you know (laughs) you know, when the stallion go up?
MURRELL: You have to pull the tail over, and that's what, that was myjob up there, then.
MURRELL: And uh,00:21:00
SMITH: Yeah, Sandy's described all that for me.
MURRELL: Did she describe? So you know I'm, I'm right. (laughs) Andanyway, and then 'course when I went to the old King Ranch, back then, I done the same thing over there--
MURRELL: --you know I done the same thing. So, I've been around. Uh,I've kind of been around. Done a little bit of everything, you know.
SMITH: Yeah, yeah, well, that's how Ed Fallon described you. Generalpurpose, you know, uh, all horseman so.
MURRELL: Yeah, well, he's really, really, really, a gentleman. He'sreally a gentleman.
SMITH: Yes, he, he is. I really enjoyed him.
MURRELL: And that is so nice, because I, people said uh, I had, had mydad say this. He said, "What people say behind you back, they do mean it." (both laugh) So that's so that's, that's, so that's good. That's good.
SMITH: That's true. That is true. (Murrell laughs) Yeah, he waspleased when I told him I was going to interview you. He, he was very pleased with that.
MURRELL: Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am.
SMITH: Tell, when you go back now, you know, ----------(??) Dr.Harthill has a controversial reputation
MURRELL: Yeah, right.
SMITH: for medicating horses, fixing races, all kinds of things likethat. Now, you didn't really deal that much with the race horses? 00:22:00
MURRELL: I did not on the race track at all. I didn't work on the racetrack at all, but just like I said, just from all the publicity and stuff about, 'bout, and he did, he did come on Big Sink to do some special deals once or twice, you know what I'm saying?
MURRELL: And that's the only dealings I had with him, but we, we got tobe, knowing me, I mean, you know, once I meet you, you just like I've known you for life. That's just the way it is, because uh, I remember one day that I was taking a horse to Churchill Downs from the farm, on a Sallee van, and me and the driver stopped at a store in Louisville to get a sandwich, and there come Dr. Harthill, walking in and says, "Put your money back. Put you money back. Let me pay for this, here." So, so (laughs) so, so he, he uh, I like I say, once I meet you, I'm friends, I'm just friends. I don't meet strangers.
MURRELL: And it's in, I know a lot of people in horses, horses. 'Courselike I say a lot of them are dead and gone, now. But I was very, very popular around, around the horses. Even the auctioneer at the Keeneland, George Swinebroad.
SMITH: Oh, yeah.
MURRELL: I knew all those. He used to come out and look at the horses,00:23:00horses. You've heard his name before?
SMITH: Oh, yeah, I've heard a lot about him.
MURRELL: George, yes, yes, and I can tell--
SMITH: --he was a legend--
MURRELL: --he was a legend, and I mean, he knew how to auction a horseand get the, get the top dollar out of a horse. And I'll give you this story about Mr. Benjamin, since we're on that.
MURRELL: Uh, back then, this was when uh, the uh, a guy named Ed Gamble.This be, he was uh, one that owns the Proctor and Gamble.
MURRELL: And this was at the July sale back then when they used tohave the select July sales. And, and it uh, but during this time, this was when uh, when uh, Secretariat was just in his prime. Just in his prime. And uh, we had a mare, had a, had a yearling by Northern Dancer, I believe it was. And we was selling this yearling. And uh, it uh, I mean they was really having on it. They got up to, got up to two hundred twenty thousand this filly did. And they was about ready, George was about ready to slap the hammer down and Mr. Benjamin was drinking, sat down in the, in the crowd, and Mr. Benjamin stood up and he said, he has this, this heavy voice, "Wait a minute." (laughs) 00:24:00And George Swinebroad said, "Sit down E.V." (laughs) He said, "You forgot to announce something which is very important." And Swinebroad said, "What did we forget?" "The dam of this filly is in foal to Secretariat." (laughs) So, they went back to bidding, and the filly brought another thirty thousand dollars. (laughs) So there was a newspaper come out the next day says, "E.V. Benjamin stands and makes a thirty thousand dollar speech at the Keeneland July sale." (laughs)
SMITH: Sound like he was a pretty outspoken guy.
MURRELL: Yeah, he was a pretty outspoken guy with everybody. (bothlaugh) He was, he was a really good guy though. I mean, you mean, you would've enjoyed, you would've enjoyed him. And he and I was, we was just big friends, you know,
MURRELL: And he, he always tried to take care of me, you know. Youappreciate working for somebody like that.
SMITH: Yeah, there's a lot of people I wish I could have had a chanceto talk to. Mr. Benjamin sounds like one of them. Warner Jones is another.
MURRELL: Yes, Warner Jones. All those guys, uh, they was all legends,you know what I'm saying?
SMITH: Yeah, pretty colorful characters, too.
SMITH: They were pretty colorful characters, too.
MURRELL: Yeah, yeah, exactly right, and Mr. Benjamin had a way with00:25:00people like, now a days and time, when you at the sales, showing horses. You know, people wants to show 'em 'til five, five thirty. Well, Mr. Benjamin would tell the people, "Babies, we goin' put 'em to bed. It's time to put 'em to bed." That means you goin' close down shop, you know. And the people, "Okay, Mr. Benjamin, we'll see you tomorrow." "Okay." That's the way he would do it.
MURRELL: So he was a, he was a really a, really a, really a character.You've seen the picture of him? I showed you the picture I had in there.
SMITH: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
MURRELL: That was Mr. Benjamin, yes. Yes. He was really a character.Um--
SMITH: --Now, you know, you said there was an awful lot of publicity anduh, around the Secretariat foals. Uh--
SMITH: --how, did you enjoy that, all the attention?
MURRELL: Uh, it was uh, it was pretty special, you know, because uh,as I told you, I don't know if I told you or not that they had guards around his stall. Did I tell you that?
SMITH: Yeah, and uh, the colts.
MURRELL: They had uh, shot, they had shot guns? (laughs) And this horsewas shown only by appointments. You know, they had a certain hour?
MURRELL: And then when that time come, then all the people would gather'round, and then I'd have to bring this horse out, and then people 00:26:00would, would look at him, you know, like that, you know.
SMITH: Did that last through several of his uh--
MURRELL: --It uh, it last, last maybe, maybe, when you, when you, whenyou get to the sale, you would maybe say you ship in on like a Friday, on a Friday, and then you would show a, show a horse maybe Friday afternoon, Saturday and Sunday, and then you would, the sales day would be that Monday. That's usually the way that went. So, so probably from Friday--
SMITH: --But was there still a lot of interest over the years forSecretariats colts?
MURRELL: Um, not really, because he, I don't think he well, he didn'treally, he didn't breed that long until he-he, you know, wasn't in the shed very long until he, he uh, I think he, I forget now, with Secretariat, did he die with colic?
SMITH: I think he was eighteen when he died.
MURRELL: Yeah, I think, yeah, I can't remember what he die, colic?
SMITH: No, uh, I'm going to mispronounce it, laminitis?
MURRELL: Yeah, laminitis, that's what it was. Yes, yes, but he didn'tget a chance really to, to prove himself a lot. I don't think, you know.
MURRELL: I think his fillies, if I am not mistaken; I think his fillieswas better than the colts. Uh, by him. Some horses do that, you know, 00:27:00they'll, they'll have fillies that can run. Some horses have colts that can run - fillies don't run. And I don't know why that is, but it, it happens that a way, sometimes.
SMITH: Other than Secretariat, who were some of the more popularstallions that you ended up working with through the mares or otherwise?
MURRELL: Uh, well, uh, I took some mares to uh, Mr. Prospector, horseslike that uh, Round Table--
SMITH: --um hm--
MURRELL: --uh, like I say, Bold Ruler, uh, some of the old good horsesNever Bend, that was at Spendthrift back then, and all those good horses, Raise A Native. Uh, um, I even can go back to oh, to the Maine Chance Farm when it used to be out on Newtown Pike when I used to be with Bluegrass Heights back in 1960. Uh, it was Maine Chance Farm back then, used to be up where the university's got now.
MURRELL: They got that property now, right there on the left. Thatused to be the old Maine Chance, and they used to have a horse that was called War Jeep.
SMITH: War Jeep?
MURRELL: War Jeep. Yes. That, that's, I mean that's way back (laughs)I think that was 'fore, probably before you, well, I don't know. Like I say, 'fore you were born.
SMITH: No, I was born before 1960, believe me.
MURRELL: Yeah. Okay. (both laugh) Well, I used to ride, ride the vans,00:28:00vans with all the mares back then.
MURRELL: And uh, there was a van company called Reliable Van Service.The company used to be back then. And uh, old guy, they all dead; it's gone now. But I, I, I took some, I've been around some good horses, Theatrical, those kinds of horses, over to Brookside.
SMITH: When you say you took the horses there? Did you take the horsesto--
MURRELL: --to breed, take mares to be bred.
SMITH: Yeah, to breed. Did you go into the breeding barns with them?
MURRELL: Sure. I would be right there with them. I could see the horseif he, if a stallion gets up on a mare twice, three times or whatever it is before he covers this mare, I would bring back, report back to the farm--
MURRELL: --and say, "This mare got a very good cover, you know. Sheought to be in foal." And then uh, there was one-one, we had one-one uh, farm called the Murty Brothers, and uh, they, they had a horse and I can't remember the horse's name. Anyway, we had this mare would come in every, she would cycle, mares cycles every eighteen days. And this mare would have a good follicle, I mean she should, should catch, you know, she would ovulate, but eighteen days she'd come right back in. Well, come to find out, I had a boy that worked with me that knew this 00:29:00horse, at that farm. And we, we set up about three times. So, the boy that, that worked here, he said, "I'm going, I'd like to go up there and watch this horse, because this horse will fool you, and he, he looks like he's flagging but he's not."
MURRELL: And that's what he was doing. He went up there, and this horsebred this mare. He come down and they was getting ready to put away, and my buddy says, "Hey," says, "that horse ain't bred this mare." "Now, how you know?" He says, "Bring him back up there." So, he bring him back up there and sure enough, the horse comes back, (laughs) he goes up, breeds the mare. Bam! She gets in foal. (laughs) So, so he knew that horse.
SMITH: Okay. Yeah.
MURRELL: So that was, that was pretty cool, yes, ma'am.
SMITH: Yeah, and they didn't know the horse, because he was--
MURRELL: --they didn't know the horse. Exactly right. They did notknow the horse. But that was pretty cool.
MURRELL: Uh, I was trying to think, some of the--I mean, like I said, Itook care of the 1950 Kentucky, I think I said that the last time, the 1950 Kentucky Derby Winner, at the King Ranch, Middleground. I took care of him. Uh, some of the Calumet bloodlines, uh, Bimelech, Beau 00:30:00Max, horses, I, Bimelech that was some of the Calumet's blood um, my goodness uh,--
SMITH: --some really good horses.--
MURRELL: --some really that was, that was, that was some really goodhorses then.
SMITH: Now, Genuine Risk, of course, was the only fe, filly Derby winneryou told me.
MURRELL: She, she was one of the fillies. I think there's only beenthree fillies.
MURRELL: Uh, there was her, a filly called Regret, and Winning Colors.I think those are the three. Help me. Am I right?
SMITH: I think so.
MURRELL: I think that's who it is.
SMITH: I think so.
MURRELL: Uh, D. Wayne Lukas, uh, several of the trainers, trainers I'vebeen around, lot of, several of the trainers. Um, Bill, you heard of Bill Mott?
MURRELL: Bill Mott, all those guys. Uh, Jack Van Berg, uh, some, somereally some really good trainers. You ever hear of Jack Van Berg?
SMITH: Oh, yeah.
MURRELL: You hear of Jack?
SMITH: I have.
MURRELL: Yeah, Jack and uh, there was a lot of the owners that comeout of New Orleans back then years that I was here. Al Stall, all those kind of people. I mean there was some really, some really good horseman people back then.
SMITH: Now, you said Mr. Benjamin did, did race some horses?00:31:00
MURRELL: Yes, yes.
SMITH: Who trained his horses?
MURRELL: Guy named Bob Dunham.
MURRELL: Dunham, yeah. Bob Dunham. Bob, I think he was from, fromout of New York, but he, I think he used to gallop horses at Calumet, too, back in his young days. And uh, he trained that good filly I was telling you about that called Chou Croute?
MURRELL: And he trained her, and 'course she was just, we raised her.We, you know, she was foaled and raised. She was out of that mare called Witherite.
MURRELL: And anyway, she was a champion, you know, she win theSpinster's Cup here at Keeneland. And uh, and uh, we finally uh, bred her to, she went to, who was that good horse she went to? Chou Croute was bred to, like you remember Damascus?
MURRELL: Yeah. She was bred like to Damascus, uh, Nijinsky, those kindof--..
MURRELL: --yes! So, she was bred to some uh--
SMITH: --really good--
MURRELL: --good horses. It was uh, something at Domino, what was thathorse's name- big grey horse over there at Domino? But, some of the, she was bred to some of the, some of the best, but she just never could get no winners, no runner.
MURRELL: She was, she was a race horse, and nothing would, never wouldrun out of her much, and I don't, I don't understand that. 00:32:00
SMITH: That does seem strange.
MURRELL: That was really strange. But I've, I've seen some and beenaround some really good horses in my days, you know, and like I say, horses have been really, really good to me, and I don't have no regrets all the years I've done, you know.
MURRELL: Yes, Ma'am.
SMITH: Well, uh, I wanted to ask you about another vet you mentionedlast time.
SMITH: And you mentioned earlier here, Bob Copelan?
SMITH: You were telling me a story about how uh, there was a snowstormone time.
MURRELL: Yeah, I'll tell you the story was, is uh, (laughs), it was, wewas going to, I had clipped this horse and prepped him for firing his shins -- pin fire.
MURRELL: And uh, we had made, made plans to do it that next day. Well,that night the temperature had dropped down to about five above zero, and these barns that was going to do it, we didn't have no shed row. It was all outside just like this, my front porch, and all the weather was exposed, you know. And I mean, it was cold. And the barn sat up on a hill. So, I get a phone call, (laughs) and uh, Dr. Copelan, he 00:33:00didn't want to come out either, said, "Butch?" I said, "Yeah, hey Doc. How's it going?" He said, "Go in and feel that horse's shin and see if it got heat in it." If it had heat, that means you can't fire, you know, so I went out the door, come right back in. I said, "Hey, Doc, it's boiling." (both laugh) So, he didn't get fired that day. So, that was one of the stories.
SMITH: Yeah. I don't think it hurt the horse too much to wait.
MURRELL: It did not hurt the horse to wait, don't worry. We done it ona better day. Yes, ma'am. But it was a, he was uh, he's still, he's still active, you know. He's still active. He's got some age on him, but he's still active I think, you know.
SMITH: Um-hm. I've met him, but I haven't talked to him, yet.
MURRELL: You haven't talked to him. He has uh, he has a little hospitaldown in Bourbon County, you know.
MURRELL: Yes, ma'am, down there. Mm, that's probably about the only,the only, only incident I've had with him, you know. Just from time to time he'd come out and vet horses stuff that, or at the sales look at some horses for clients. Stuff like that, you know, but far as me working with him, that's, I've held horses with him for, for x-rays, stuff like that, you know, from time-to-time-- 00:34:00
MURRELL: --back then, you know. But other than that, that's about allthe uh, uh, run-ins and stuff that I had with him, but that-that was over a period of years, you know what I'm saying?
SMITH: Yeah. Yeah.
MURRELL: Yes, ma'am. So, we got to uh, got to know each other realwell. Got to know his wife; and a fine lady, too, yes, ma'am. And his wife and my wife they all got to be big buddies, and uh, over this Ohio State thing see.
SMITH: Oh, okay, that's right.
MURRELL: Yes, ma'am, so his wife and my wife they got to be big buddiesabout that, you know, 'cause we all were together there for awhile. Yes, ma'am. (laughs)
SMITH: Yeah. Hmm.
MURRELL: It was nice.
SMITH: Well, let's um, we'll take you- oh, there was another thing Ithink you mentioned to me as we were coming in last week about a horse that was stolen?
MURRELL: Yeah, that was uh, Fan- Fanfreluche. Have you ever heard ofher?
SMITH: Yeah, I think I have.
MURRELL: She was a Northern Dancer mare, by Northern Dancer, and uh, sheused to be with Claiborne Farm. And this mare got stolen, and I forget now, how long of a time she was gone, but they, when they did find 00:35:00her she was out on a outside of uh, uh, some farm on the highway, just grazing along side the fence. (laughs) So, she had some a, she really had some turnovers in her life, she did, you know, but--
MURRELL: And that actually happened. Yes, ma'am. That actuallyhappened. And then she winds up uh, here on Big Sink.
SMITH: Oh, okay.
MURRELL: And then she was the one that wind up being bred to Alydaras well.
MURRELL: Yes, and of course, the Japanese wind up owning her.
SMITH: Okay, when they bought--
MURRELL: --yeah, when they, when they bought Big Sink. So, they wind upowning her. And they bred her to Alydar. And uh, she had some age on her when she was in foal to him. Matter of fact, I think that was her last foal, 'cause she was like twenty-one years old--
MURRELL: --then, and uh, that really was a nice foal. So--
SMITH: --Was she a nice horse?
MURRELL: She was really nice, yes, ma'am. She was really nice. Matterof fact, there's a tomb of hers right over there on the farm, now--
SMITH: --oh, really--
MURRELL: --over there. That's where she's buried at, right now, overthere.
MURRELL: And uh, but anyway, they-they-they I was told that the Japanese,00:36:00they got a phone call. This baby here wasn't but like two months old, foal --still sucking on the mare, and they offered a, a price. Said, "We'll , we'll offer you two million dollars," and they never even seen the baby, just because it was, and they said, "Not for sale."
MURRELL: Two million dollars for a foal. I mean, and they, they hadn'teven, they ----------(??) they never even seen it, you know.
SMITH: That's amazing.
MURRELL: The Japanese said, they just had some much money, they justsaid, "Not for sale." Ain't that awful? (both laugh)
SMITH: Yeah, the big numbers are amazing.
MURRELL: It really is. It really is. Uh, and I can, well, I can saythis here. Uh, I'm not incriminating myself. You know, Mr., just this Saratoga sale they're having now?
MURRELL: I think we had a colt belong to Mr. Robert Clay--
MURRELL: --out of a Santeria mare, and they had the reserve on it fortwo hundred ninety, I believe it was, I think the colt sold for two seventy --five. So--
SMITH: -- Aw--
MURRELL: --Mr. Clay said, "Aw, no. We'll keep him." So he brings him00:37:00back, that's the reason why you got that it. In this business you got to be, you got to be well off enough to take care even if you lose, the loss, you know, where you keep going? And, but, this mare called Santeria she's uh, he's already got a, already a three or four year old that's already won over a hundred and some thousand out of this mare, out of this mare, and he's still got him, plus this colt here is by Smarty Jones. So, he, Mr. Clay is really smart, you know--
MURRELL: --'cause Smarty Jones has had two or three winners already,--
SMITH: --that's right--
MURRELL: --see, and if something really hit big in this, in SmartyJones' family, you know, in his pedigree, yeah, then this horse here would be really, really valuable. You know what I'm saying?
MURRELL: So, that's a very, very classy move for Mr. Clay.
SMITH: Yeah. Is it a yearling?
MURRELL: It's just a yearling, yes. And he didn't bring the reserveprice, so I bring him back again, and take him, and break him. So--
SMITH: Tell me about coming to work for Three Chimneys. How'd thathappen?
MURRELL: Uh, I, what happened was, is-is uh, well, Dan Rosenberg tells00:38:00everybody that, I don't know if you, have you interviewed?
SMITH: Uh, no, I interview him tomorrow.
MURRELL: Okay, well, Dan will tell you, said uh, he always admired me.Cause even when, when Big Sink was in session back then, when it was just Big Sink and not-not Three Chimneys, I used to walk mares across to the breeding shed over there -- walk 'em by shank. You didn't van 'em- you walked 'em over there. It'd be pouring down rain and I'd walk mares over to the shed, and Dan said he always admired me. He just, it was something about me that he admired, and he always wanted me to come work for him, and Dan tell all the clients things, say, "We had to buy the farm to get Butch to come work for us." (both laugh) He'll tell you, he'll tell you that even right today, you know, he and I shake hands, we embrace each other, he say, "This is my friend." And uh, and I just uh, uh, but that's, but the way they came by coming to work for Three Chimneys was is that after the, the Japanese had done like a financial turnover, well, they would goes and lease the farm to Three Chimneys for one year. Big Sink did that in order to give us a job. So, uh, 00:39:00that means all the employees, the equipment, and everything Three Chimneys leases for one year. Then at the end of that year, we stay with Three Chimneys and Big Sink go back. They take their farm back.
MURRELL: So, uh, still under the Japanese operation, you, you see whatI'm saying?
SMITH: Yeah, yeah.
MURRELL: So, after about eight years, I was gone off the farm, in my,living in my own home. And then after a period of eight years, then Three Chimneys buy Big Sink.
MURRELL: And then I was asked by Dan and them to, if I would like tomove back on the farm, and that, this is, this is how me and my wife is back here on the farm, now--
MURRELL: --and that's been--
SMITH: --so they just, they just kept you.
MURRELL: They kept me. I just, every time the farm would turn over, I'dturn over with the farm.
MURRELL: (laughs) Yes, ma'am, I would just uh--
SMITH: So what did you do at Three Chimneys? What was your job?
MURRELL: I was a, start off as a, as a foreman, just a foreman.
SMITH: Okay, working with?
MURRELL: Work with the yearlings. I been with yearlings from day one.00:40:00
MURRELL: And uh, uh, Gary Pimentel was the yearling manager back then,and he knew me from way back, too, see, because he used to work for Warner Jones, so we used to all stable together at the sales every year. So we knew each other. We knew each other well. But, yeah, I'm, I'm going to go back to the, some of the parties that we used to have over at Mr. Benjamin's, they used to have. That's when uh, Will Farish's all the mares and things was here. And Mr. Benjamin had what they call the uh, July Sales party.
SMITH: Oh, okay.
MURRELL: And they would have it like on a Sunday night, 'cause the salewould be the next day on Monday, see. And all the big shots would come in from everywhere to come to his party. They invited them, you know, you know, and what I used to do was park the cars.
MURRELL: You know what I'm saying? And, and, now, we'd have all thesenumbers and everything, and I'd have two or three guys helping me, and we'd pass these numbers out to the, to the driver, and we'd put one on the car so that when they get ready to leave we'd know their car.
MURRELL: Well, Mr. Benjamin, (laughs) Mr. Benjamin would uh, he'd get,he'd get so drunk. (laughs) It was so funny. That uh, they would, 00:41:00they would, he had a swimming pool out there, okay, in his yard, and, and, people were jumping off in swimming pool. (laughs) --------(??) Mr. Benjamin goes to bed. He just leaves everybody just goes to bed. (both laugh) 'Bout ten o'clock, upstairs the window raise up, "All you bastards go home!" (laughs) People so funny.
SMITH: That's pretty good.
MURRELL: Oh, he was, he was a character. (laughs) He called everybody abastard. That's his word --
SMITH: --all right--
MURRELL: -- you know, you bastard. (laughs) But uh, yes, but I've done,there's been a lot, a lot of things that, that, that happened around the horses and people all the years. I mean, it's just, it's awesome, I mean. Oh, I could tell you some stories about some of the guys that I worked with, that I worked in the barn with, that get mad at the weather. (laughs) This one guy, named David Jenson, he, he uh, with those barns I was telling you about, we was trying to clean stalls, well when you bring a, bring a fork load of muck out, the wind would just take it off your fork and blow it everywhere. And he got mad one day at the wind and started cursing and going on, this boy did, and throwed 00:42:00the pitch fork, and the fork, the fork slide down the blacktop, sticks into the tire on the wagon, and the tire go flat (both laugh) so, so
SMITH: That's pretty bad. Then he really had something to be upsetabout.
MURRELL: Then he did, he had something, he had something, (laughs) butit was, it was just, every year, it was just, it was a lot of, it was a lot of, it really was a lot of fun when you get to thinking about it, you know.
SMITH: Was it fun to work on the farm? Did, did the guys have fun, theworkers?
MURRELL: Yes. We all, we all, I mean, you know, really--
SMITH: I've heard about, you know, lunch breaks where you play cards anddo things. Did you do that?
MURRELL: Yeah, they've done that. They play cards um, um, 'course, likeI say, back then, they didn't have women things, back then, and you know they will do that. Uh, when I was at the King Ranch we use to, we'd at lunch time we used to listen to Paul Harvey.
SMITH: Oh, really?
MURRELL: Used to listen to him every day. Every day everybody wouldgather round and listen to the stories of Paul Harvey, and Paul Harvey could, I mean, somebody would die, but he'd make you laugh at 'em, you know--
MURRELL: --with him, you know, Paul Harvey was funny. Now, I have totell you this story about when he was talking about the zoo keeper. Did you ever hear this story?
SMITH: I don't think so.
MURRELL: Paul Harvey? Talking about this zoo keeper -- he loved those00:43:00lions and things--
MURRELL: --and there was, they had a big, big uh, uh, they had uh, a uh,big note on the, on the fence there, you know. 'Be aware. Dangerous, stay back.' And this keeper seen these tourists backing up, and he said, "They won't bother ya!'" Said, "Come on. You can come closer. I'll prove it to ya." This is Paul Harvey telling this story. Said the people come close. Said the zoo keeper made the lion open his mouth. Said he stuck his head in the lion's mouth, and he paused, and said, "And he was twenty-nine." (laughs) You know what the means?
SMITH: Yeah. (both laugh)
MURRELL: And, I mean we all just hit the floor laughing. "And he wastwenty-nine." (laughs) That was it.
SMITH: I used to listen to Paul Harvey. He, he had good stories.
MURRELL: Yes, ma'am. Good stories. Yes. I, we, we used to, it wereseveral of them. About this guy getting sucked up in a jet motor and everything. You probably, did you hear about that one, that time?
SMITH: Uh, I think so. I think I remember that one.
MURRELL: And this uh, this old lady was living in a three storybuilding, and uh, the window was parallel with the street, and she and 00:44:00these kids, these kids uh, come in this, in this apartment, and the windows open, and this lady says, "Oh, it won't hurt you, won't hurt." And she ran over, she made a mistake. She fell out the window, 'course Paul Harvey was saying she was eighty-two or whatever it was, you know. (laughs)
SMITH: That's right.
MURRELL: Well, it was funny. It was really funny, yes, yes. Um, I'vetried to, tried to think of something else that we used to do, um--
SMITH: Now, when you had the parties and stuff did you guys get to joinin ever? Besides just--
MURRELL: --we would just, basically, on those parties what we would dois, we would, they would, we'd always, they'd always fix us, make sure we got some food------(??), and basically that was it, because you weren't allowed to drink or nothing. Which I never did drink, no how. But you weren't allowed to drink, 'cause if some of the guys drank, they'd tear up those expensive vehicles, you know, Mercedes, black Cadillacs back then, you know.
MURRELL: Um, but some, for the, another thing, I had this one guy thatuh, he did drink a couple of beers over there, and he went to get this man's car. These new cars had all these buttons and automatic stuff on these windows, and he had about three or four buttons laying in the seat where he pulled them off trying to start this car. (laughs) but 00:45:00it was, we laugh because, but, but uh--
MURRELL: --yes, ma'am. Um, I'm trying to think of anything else that I,that I've missed.
SMITH: Well let's, let's talk some about Three Chimneys. So you startedworking at Three Chimneys so--
SMITH: --was Dan Rosenberg your boss?
MURRELL: Dan Rosenberg was the, was the uh, president and the, and thegeneral manager.
SMITH: Is that who you reported to if?
MURRELL: Uh, I, I reported to my supervisor, which was, when I startedhere, was Gary Pimentel. He was the yearling manager.
SMITH: Okay. All right, okay.
MURRELL: So, he was, he was my boss. And then, Gary had to report toDan--
MURRELL: --because Dan was, you know, Dan was the, was the generalmanager, and all the broodmare managers and yearling managers, they all reported to Dan. Now, like Case, Case is took, to replace Dan, same way it is now with the, with the managers. They report to Case.
SMITH: So what year was it that you started working?
MURRELL: I started in nine, '94.
SMITH: 1994. It's been awhile.
MURRELL: Yeah, it's been close to fourteen years, at Three Chimneys.
SMITH: So how's the farm changed since you were there, since you started?
MURRELL: It, it's really uh, it has, well, they, like I say, when they,when they, when they first leased the farm, it had all the facilities 00:46:00of Big Sink, you know, the old barns and everything. And uh, then after, of course when they bought the farm then that's when they done the whole change, all the construction, new barn, tore down, built new barn and everything. But they, it's really for the best, and the farm is absolutely pretty. You never been up there yet, have you?
SMITH: No, I haven't. I need to go.
MURRELL: The farm is absolutely beautiful. You need to just, whenyou leave here, just uh, uh, are you going; where you going, back to Frankfort?
SMITH: Yeah. Go that way instead?
MURRELL: Yes, go through this gate. Just follow the road. Just followthe, stay on the road. Okay? And just look, look, look and then you can uh, when you get down to it you'll see the road that uh, that will come into a 'T', 'T'--
MURRELL: --just take your left, and just go straight out, and that willgo back out to Old Frankfort Pike.
SMITH: And that's Big Sink?
MURRELL: Uh, no, you be on Frankfort then. When you go on the farm, andjust, you be on the farm, okay, and you'll see these barns up here, and just follow the road like it is, right on down the hill, um, when you, when you get down there to the road, you still on the farm when I say you get to the 'T'. You still on the farm, okay? 00:47:00
MURRELL: But take a left at that 'T'--
MURRELL: --and then you just go right by that big new barn you'll see,then just keep straight and it will take you right on up the hill, right back out to Old Frankfort Pike over there.
MURRELL: And if you take a left, you'll be headed right back toFrankfort.
SMITH: Okay. I'll do that.
MURRELL: Okay. Yes, just so you can see. Yes, ma'am. I'd like for youto--
SMITH: --just the little bit I've seen of the farm is beautiful, thiswhole area.
MURRELL: Yes. Right.
SMITH: Now is uh, so back then so they did all these farm renovations,about how many, has it grown a lot since '94 in terms of ?
MURRELL: Definite. The numbers, the horses, uh, uh, it has growntremendously. Um--
SMITH: Has the yearling division?
MURRELL: The yearling department has grown, I used to be, I used to uh,have to take all the overflow yearlings that they couldn't handle here on the farm, what they call North Ridge. You heard of North Ridge Farm? Did you hear of North Ridge?
SMITH: Um-hm. Um-hm. Sandy used to work there.
MURRELL: Yeah, what's that?
SMITH: Sandy used to work there.
MURRELL: Okay, North Ridge? Yes. Well, I uh, for about five years, uh,part, no, six months out of the year, they would lease that over there, and I had like five barns of horses I take care of over there for five years.
MURRELL: And uh, and 'course I had a crew of people, you know, that00:48:00worked for me over there. But, anyway, uh, in the, in the spring, I would move over there with the yearlings and then stay over there until the fall of the year. Then I'd move back, and then in the spring again, we'd stay here in the winter time, and then in the spring again, I'd go back. (laughs) I done that for five years, and then, I mean, that was a really job, 'cause you had to load up all that tack, and move tractors--
MURRELL: --and everything. I mean, that was, but I was the type of guythat had the patience. I, I, I done that for five years.
SMITH: And then what happened? Did they get the storage space?
MURRELL: Then finally they-they bought this farm, and that eliminatedthat over, taking care of the overflow yearlings, see, after they bought this farm then that eliminated that, 'cause we didn't have enough room, previously, to handle all the yearlings. That's the reason they had to lease that over there.
SMITH: You do now?
SMITH: Do you have enough room now for everybody, for all the horses?
MURRELL: We, we uh, we, we, we, pretty crowded right now, but we managenow. (laughs) We manage now. Yes, ma'am. We can pretty much handle now, the way they do it now. Yes, ma'am.
SMITH: How uh, how different is it working for Chim- Three Chimneys than00:49:00where you worked before?
MURRELL: Well, well uh, uh, Three Chimneys, one thing is, they like todo things uh, the right way, and I'm really for that, you know. And uh, they don't, they don't do no crooked dealing, you know. I mean, they, they straight down the road, and then that's one of the reasons why I can appreciate them, because they're honest about it, you know. And uh, where I've known some people that wouldn't be so straight on some things, but, but uh, I've heard, heard Dan and them say, you know, "No, no, Three Chimneys don't operate--" You know, the idea's excellency. And, and uh, and they just go the straight, right down the straight way, you know. So, I can really appreciate that. Mr. Clay and them is, they are just genuine. I mean, they are really genuine. I mean, you can go to them, and they on a, just a low level which, you know what I'm saying?
MURRELL: And uh, I just really love them, and I, you know, I tell themI appreciate being able to be a part of this program, and that's the reason, one of the reasons why that I, I try to, all of my experience that I would apply to Three Chimneys, to make Three Chimneys better any way I can. 00:50:00
MURRELL: And uh, and uh, you know, I,I was, I was, I was representingThree Chimneys when I was over there on North Ridge, I represented Three Chimneys. And I, I, the way I am here, is the way I was over there, because I love horses. I have a passion for horses. You know what I'm saying?
MURRELL: And, and, and, and if you love horses then you do what's bestof the horse wherever you are, you know. Even though, they wasn't, I wasn't under the gun under the management over there, but, but, but, that, that just the way I was raised, to do it the right way.
MURRELL: Yes, ma'am. And, and, and I always, you know, I always, we hadclients that come over there, and the report would come back here, you know, said whoever that fella you got over there, says I like for him seeing after my horses. (laughs) Yes, ma'am.
SMITH: --So you like working for Three Chimneys?
MURRELL: Yes, Three Chimneys is, is uh, is uh, is number one. They,they're number one. I mean, they really do take care of you. Uh, I could tell you a story about uh, some personal stuff that uh, that uh, that really blessed me, is even when my mother-in-law, my wife's mother? 00:51:00
MURRELL: She didn't have a plot when she died. Well, uh, my boss atthat time went to Dan, and I didn't know he was going to do it, and said uh, "Butch lost his mother-in-law, and she don't have, you know, don't have a plot." Well, I get this phone call from Dan Rosenberg, and he said, "Butch," says "I, I understand that your wife's mother don't have a plot." And I said, "Well, no, Dan. We trying to figure out a way how to do it." He said, "Tell your wife just wipe that debt off her shoulders. Don't even think about it." Said, "The farm will pay for it." (laughs) They done that. And then, one of the ladies named J.J. was in the office over there. Receptionist at that time?
MURRELL: She, J.J. and them, uh, had a uh, took a uh, donation for,for, for her family, for her family. They took up close to uh, I think eleven or twelve hundred dollars from people, you know, coming in and donating just for that reason. So uh, that's, that's very special, when you're doing, you know, people do that for you. That's very, very special. I had my, I had lost two sisters, and uh, Three Chimneys was 00:52:00right there. I mean, Dan Rosenberg and his, and, and his, his fiance, they would all come to the service, visitation, and everything, you know, and look me up and embrace. So that was, I thought that was very, I thought that, you know, you don't, you don't forget that.
MURRELL: You do not forget that.
SMITH: No. That sounds like a special place to work.
MURRELL: Yes, ma'am. And uh, they're, they're family and all, you know,they think about your family. Not only me. They done it for other people, too. I don't want to seem like they just--
MURRELL: --like they just doing that. And then I can also tell youthis. This just, just happened just this year. My sixty-fifth birthday, they, they special, they had something special for me. Just for me. They now, first of all, all the staff in the office they had uh, cake and ice cream in the office. All, everybody came, and shared that with me. And then, the, it was, was, was really nice. And then, you know, Mr. Clay and everybody was there. And then, the next day, they had a Mexican restaurant to cater food over to the new barn.
MURRELL: And then also all the guys that work with me could eat--00:53:00
MURRELL: --you know, people from all the divisions come. I mean, Imean, this was, this was, this was awesome. So, that's special, and they done this for me, you know. So, so, I, I can appreciate that uh, you know. Uh, that's, that's what I say, and they, they, I work hard. I've worked hard here and they know that.
SMITH: Is Three Chimneys the kind of place that a lot of people wantto work?
SMITH: It's got that kind of reputation?
MURRELL: Absolutely. And uh, there's people come in all the timelooking for jobs, but we just don't, don't need the help at the time, you know. But, but Three Chimneys has a good, good reputation, you know. Uh, I mean you can, you can go to Ohio, Ohio, and you can hear about Three Chimneys, you know. People just--
MURRELL: --it's nationwide.
MURRELL: Everybody knows about Three Chimneys. And they have somereally good advertisement. You know that.
SMITH: Yeah. Tell me, tell me since that picture is in a variety ofplaces, it may come up. Tell me how, about how that picture that they used in the advertising. Tell me the story about how that happened.
MURRELL: The one that they used? Well, uh, as we was, as I said, they00:54:00was getting ready to do some construction over at the Big Sink, and we had to move these yearlings off the farm.
MURRELL: And as we was uh, they had to tear the fence down Old FrankfortPike, and we had to walk across, the horses across the road. Well, this photographer was following us, and when we get to Three Chimneys, well we put these fillies out in this field. You seen the pictures -------- ---(??), right? You seen the horses in the background? Well, I was just, I was walking out to check the water tank just, just, that's what you normally do when you put a horse in the field, you check and make sure you got water. And I was walking across, and I just happened to look (laughs), and the guy was, had the camera on me through the fence. And when he done it, I just, I, I made a jump and he clicked. (both laugh)
SMITH: It's a great picture.
MURRELL: And, and they, Dan called me in and say, say "Mr. Clay askedcould they use it?" I said, "By all means." And then Three Chimneys added the, the words to it, you know: Excitement, uh, whatever it was uh--
MURRELL: --energy, excitement. That's what Three Chimneys about, youknow. And then actually--
SMITH: --With you as the mascot.
MURRELL: Yeah. (laughs) So, and then, it was, that was [Murrell callsout] "Baby, I got a lot of calls on that. Didn't I?" 00:55:00
MRS. MURRELL: Sure did. (Smith laughs)
MURRELL: I mean, that was, there was, the races was going on and therewas people calling from the racetrack. They said, "Butch I see you." I was in the racing form, The Blood Horse, and everything, you know.
SMITH: So people recognized you.
MURRELL: Yes, ma'am. And uh, Dr. Bramlage still has that picture righttoday, up there in the clinic up there; on the wall up there, so uh--
SMITH: --That's some pretty creative advertising.
MURRELL: Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. It was--
SMITH: --honoring the employees, too.
MURRELL: Yes, ma'am. (laughs) So, it was, I was very popular for awhile.
SMITH: Do you still work with yearlings?
MURRELL: Still work with yearlings? Yes, ma'am. Uh, like I say, I --
SMITH: --but you don't go to the sales?
MURRELL: No, I, I've had enough of the sales, you know. I've done itfor twenty-five years, and, and uh, that, that's hard work, and at my age now, I don't really need to go through that no more. You know what I'm saying? 'Cause you on your feet all day long, hot weather; it's really hard.
SMITH: But you help get them ready?
MURRELL: Oh, yeah. Well, I, now I assist. What I do is I teach peoplewhat I know. You know what I'm saying? I go and look. If I see somebody not doing what's right, then I'll show them how to do it the right way, or even how to handle a horse. You know what I'm saying?
MURRELL: Matter of fact I, this morning I got a young girl that uh, thatthey wonder why the get bit by colts and things. And I said, "You see where your head?" You know, I said, "Always stay back by the shoulder." I say, "This way a horse have to reach back to try to bite you, but if you're automatically walking by his mouth, all he got to do is get you." So, and I showed that to her this morning, and they showed me their arm where they go bruises all over them. I said, "You never seen me get bit. You know why? Cause I know how not to get bit."
SMITH: That's right. (Murrell laughs) It seems pretty common withhorses. I was going up to pet Smarty Jones, and they said, "Oh, no. He'll bite you."
MURRELL: Sure, that's just, and that's, I mean, you have to know thatthat is a colt's nature, is to bite. And if you go in with that, you know, if you know that, then you going to always be thinking 'bout not how to get bit. (both laugh)
SMITH: That's right.
MURRELL: But they, but they--
MURRELL: I got so many of the young people I can show you, I can showyou right today. They got bruises all over where these horses bite them, you know.
MURRELL: (laughs) I've been kicked, actually in fifty years, I've beenkicked one time.
SMITH: Yeah, you told me that. You'd only broken your arm.
MURRELL: Yeah, got this arm broke.
SMITH: That's pretty good.00:57:00
MURRELL: Yes, ma'am, after fifty years I've never been pawed in thehead, you know. I've never been, never been kicked in the belly or nothing. And uh, I've had close calls. I mean, it ain't that, you know, it ain't that, that uh--
SMITH: --they haven't tried--
MURRELL: --yeah, it hasn't meant they haven't tried. I've just alwayspaid attention. I always, you know, I always, I wanted to be good. That's what I'm saying, you know. And that's part of being good is, is you always remember that this is a horse, and that he can hurt you. And you never take your eye off him until you, 'til you turn and get the shank off of him, turn and put him in the stall, shut the door. And I even teach people, you know, I said, "When you bring him in the stall, turn him around, back out of the stall. Don't even turn your back to him even from the, from the horse to the door." (laughs) 'Cause I've seen people uh, do that,--
MURRELL: --and they'll be a bird in the back of the, back of the, andthe bird flap his wings and spook easy. These yearlings just like that, you know. And they'll run on top of you 'fore you get the door closed.
MURRELL: So, if you back it out, you see him at all times until you
MURRELL-- close the door. So, safety is what I--
MURRELL: -- preach and practice all the time.
SMITH: Yeah, a simple thing, but it will save you.
MURRELL: Simple thing. Yes, ma'am. And it, and around horses it's00:58:00just the little bitty things that uh, that's important, just the little things. Yes, ma'am, around horses. And, and you do that by, by years of experience, you know. Those things, to me, things just automatic come to me, where as most people, they don't even think about it, you know? They don't even think about it until I done bring it out to them. Then they, they think it's not important 'til it happens. (both laugh)
SMITH: That's right.
MURRELL: 'Til it happens. Then they see what I'm talking about.
SMITH: Well, you've done so many things with horses.
SMITH: What has been, when you think back on it, what was your favoritething you did with horses?
MURRELL: Probably one of my favorite things was, is when I was dealingwith mares, back then, was the year that Dr. Fallon and I had to, had to carry the farm
MURRELL: right on through breeding season, foaling season. And we,we uh, we made it through that season. We had a real good, good uh, percentage of getting the mares back in foal. That was probably one of the most uh, one of my most, most, most prideful times I was, because, I mean, to do this, you know what I'm saying? And I've done what a lot of the managers done. You know what I'm saying? And just by working 00:59:00around 'em, and, and, and watching Dr. Fallon, what he does, and, and my boss man teasing mares and stuff, and I knew all that stuff. And uh, that was probably most of, one of the most happiest times. At the end of that season, and Mr. Benjamin called me, and he gave me a bonus,
MURRELL: because we had done so good that he, Doc Fallon and I. He gaveme the bonus. He didn't give Doc Fallon. Doc Fallon got his (both laugh) He got his. He got his as he packed his bag. (both laugh)
SMITH: That's right. That's right. (Murrell laughs)
MURRELL: But anyway, uh, uh--
SMITH: --that was quite a--.
MURRELL: --that was one of the most rewarding times, I think, aroundhorses, when you can do that, accomplish that, you know.
MURRELL: And then all the clients and things are so happy their mares getback in foal, you know. That was rare, yes. I never will forget that.
SMITH: Anything the opposite? Any times that were really tough?
MURRELL: I've had uh, had one old, one old mare called Gamrosia (??).I never will forget it. And Dr. Fallon was here. This mare was, was what you call gill flirting (??), and what that is, gill flirting is, is where, when a mare has a foal, sometimes they'll run their foot into the rectum and, and, and, and destroy that part of that rectum, and it 01:00:00has scar tissue in there. And they suck air through there all the time.
MURRELL: And that interfere with them, with them uh, uh, uh, gettingback, you know, getting pregnant. Then that would interfere. It would interfere. This mare would, I mean I was, I was promised a big bonus to get this mare in foal. Well, uh, she would cycle, cycle normal, we'd breed her, she'd ovulate. And we'd count days, count days. Dr. Fallon would say, "I don't know. I don't know." He'd put his arm in there and says, "She got good tone." I never forget it. Back then you didn't have the uh, ultrasound then.
MURRELL: You know, he, he that why I say he was one of the best. Anduh, we'd get up to about thirty days, and uh, still got good tone. And after about thirty-five days, aw, tone not so good. It just started going away. And we'd just repeat, repeat, repeat, and that mare just not, you couldn't get her in foal just for that reason, that was the reason. But that was the, that was the only one I ever had was called, and when she walked you could hear [sound of air escaping] making that noise.
MURRELL: Gill, that's what they called it gill flirting. Yes, ma'am.
SMITH: Aww. What happened to her? What happens to a horse like thatthey're not able to get--
MURRELL: I think she just finally, just finally, they retire them and01:01:00they'll just let them live until they die. She was, she was out of, I think she was a good, good producing mare, you know.
MURRELL: And then some people just turn them out and let them retireuntil they die. That's what they do with some old horses. Yes, ma'am.
MURRELL: Yes, ma'am.
SMITH: The uh, okay, I won't keep you much longer then.
SMITH: I want to ask you this, though, about being an African-Americanin the industry.
SMITH: Have you, I know you started out when it, there was stillsegregation.
SMITH: It was still an issue.
SMITH: How have you seen attitudes change since passage of the civilrights? Has it been, has it made a difference for you?
MURRELL: Um, you know what, um--
SMITH: --within the industry?
MURRELL: You know what, it really, it really hasn't, and some of theopportunities that I've had, it was my fault, and I know that because, for one reason why, I've had opportunities to come before me, but I did not have the educational part of it to, to do that. That's the reason 01:02:00I say it was my fault.
MURRELL: But far as, far as the uh, the change of that, that segregationpart of it, I haven't seen no change in it. I really haven't.
SMITH: Other than being able to go into some restaurants you couldn't gointo before?
MURRELL: That, right, right, right. But uh, I really haven't, and-andthat wasn't what the issue for me, because you know, when you, when you do those things back then, you didn't, you didn't, I mean it wasn't an issue then. You know what I'm saying?
SMITH: It's just the way of life.
MURRELL: You feel like that's the way it was with life. That's just theway it was. And uh, because there was no laws to force the issue back then. You see what I'm saying? So you feel like that that was just the way life was. And uh, after they did integrate, it still didn't change for me. I mean it was, it was nice to go in and sit down, but I didn't try to take advantage of it, you know, so, you know what I'm saying?
SMITH: You were already working with horses then?
MURRELL: Yes, I was already working with horses then. Yes, yes. Yes,01:03:0019, I'm trying to think. Uh, I think that the integration, when did they integrate, in fifty something, wasn't it? It was fifty something, I think.
SMITH: Uh, schools started integrating then--
MURRELL: --about '58--
SMITH: --public accommodation was in the sixties--
MURRELL: --yeah, something like that. And they started accommodating inthe sixties?
MURRELL: Well, I did start, I started working with horses in the 1960swhen it, that's the first year I started. But uh, like I say, I knew, they did integrate while I was in school which was uh, I think it had to be in the fifties, late fifties when they integrated. It had to be, wouldn't it?
SMITH: Uh, schools, yYeah.
MURRELL: Yeah, for the schools, yeah. Yeah, it had to be.
MURRELL: But it really had been a, I mean integration, it never been no,it really hadn't been a problem for me. Never. But, like I say, it has to be the way I was raised. (laughs) Really, 'cause I've never, I just never was a um, mean person or never a person that looked for fights.
MURRELL: You know, and--
SMITH: Uh, then, we talked last time about why you don't see many01:04:00African-Americans in the industry now, and you said a lot of that is due to people just don't want to work.
MURRELL: Don't want to work, or--
SMITH: --Do you see many at all coming to the farms to work?
MURRELL: Don't see 'em. It's now, it's Hispanics now.
SMITH: That's it.
MURRELL: They replaced that in most of the, most of the uh, uh, lotof the black people now, especially young people and things, they, some of the older, back my age, they all dead now. But this younger generation, it's drugs. You know what I'm saying? Don't want to work, on the streets, and they in jail. I'm mean, you've, you've seen them, and the jails are full of them. (laughs) And that's-that's-that's- that's just the way it is. They don't want, you know, and just, lot to do with the homes, the way they're raised and all. You got single parents that uh, don't, don't introduce Christ. They don't know nothing about Christ, you know. Naturally, I mean, what, what's, what follow that? (laughs) The world--
SMITH: --and then they're not raised around horses much anymore.
MURRELL: They're not raised around horses. That's just what I'm saying.All that, that just when those old people died out, that, that, you 01:05:00know, that, that part left.
SMITH: So, the majority of the people you work with now are Hispanics?
MURRELL: Hispanics, yeah, yeah. I got one, out at Three Chimneys Ithink there, right now, there's, I think there's only two black guys that works here other than myself -- in the whole Three Chimneys organization, far as I know.
SMITH: That's a lot. (Murrell laughs)
MURRELL: So, that's a lot, I mean, they, they--
SMITH: --that's a lot of people, I mean, what do they have, one hundredand fifty employees --
MURRELL: --oh yeah, at least--
SMITH: --and only two are African-American?
MURRELL: Yeah, yeah, maybe. maybe three--
MURRELL: --counting me, and that's about it. And it ain't, it's nothingon Three Chimneys' part, it's just that they, they just not available.
MURRELL: Now, there was a, I was over there last week, I believe it was.And there was a young man that was, that came to apply I think for a night watchman job, that they ran an ad, ad in the paper.
MURRELL: And I don't know how that turned out, but he was, he waspretty, he was pretty young. And I don't know how that turned out, but he did apply.
MURRELL: And that's all I heard. But it uh, and then, 'course they gotone black girl in the office, now.
MURRELL: And that just happened just recently.
SMITH: Okay, I think I saw her.
MURRELL: A human resources girl?
MURRELL: Yeah, yeah. And uh,
SMITH: Are there any other African-Americans around, like around yourage that uh,
MURRELL: --that still--
SMITH: --in the industry that we could talk to?
MURRELL: I, I don't know of any more. I'm trying to think. Practicallyall of them 'bout dead and gone, now. (laughs) The ones run around my age. And then, there, there is some, there's a couple of guys I know, but they, they retired and in Lexington somewhere, and I don't know where they at, you know.
MURRELL: Uh, but they-they, 'cause I ran in to them they used to workwith me on the old King Ranch--
MURRELL: --but they, they just, they two brothers, matter-of-fact, andthey, they retired, and they just don't have no wives, you know what I'm saying? They'll stand around Wal-Mart and look at people walking down there.(laughs).
SMITH: Aw. (both laugh)
MURRELL: You see guys do that--
SMITH: --yeah I have--
MURRELL: -- just stand, lean against the wall and watch people?
SMITH: But having a wife will change that, right? (both laugh)
MURRELL: Yeah. (laughs)01:07:00
SMITH: Oh, I'm gonna, okay, I'm going to start wrapping this up here.
SMITH: But um, I know could talk to you forever, and you'd come up withmore and more stories, but uh--
SMITH: --I'm gonna', you've known so many people in the industry--
SMITH: --over the years, and you look back, let's say to some of theowners. Uh, who are the people that you most admired?
MURRELL: For, as owners?
SMITH: Yeah. Let's start with the owners.
MURRELL: Uh, like I say, uh, Will Farish was uh, he was a really, hewas a really uh, key person for somebody admire. Uh, he always was uh, nice and uh, classy with me. I mean--
SMITH: Did he know a lot about horses when he got started?
MURRELL: Yes, Will, Will, yes, yes. And uh, I'm not for sure if Will'sfather or parents or something had something to do with horses or not, but, but he was well knowledgeable of horses, and uh, but he was just a down to, to be as rich as he is, he was, he was a down to earth guy.
MURRELL: And I've uh, I've, I like I say, I've talked to him, shook his01:08:00hand and talked to him, you know, from time to time. You know what I'm saying. Uh, he was really nice. As I say, the Benjamin's, they were really classy people. Uh, I knew the uh, the Hancock's? I knew them, at Claiborne Farms. As a matter of fact, I know Seth Hancock right now.
MURRELL: And uh, he, he always wanted me to come work for him downthere, Seth did--
MURRELL: --'Cause I used to come to the breeding shed, see?
MURRELL: And then, he'd always uh, I, I could go back to, there used tobe what they called a stallion station over on, over on, on uh, Russell Cave Road. And uh, there was a guy called Snowden, Harold Snowden. Uh, well he used to want me to come work, back then, (laughs) back then. All that, several old farms, Bosque Bonita, all those kinds of farms--
MURERLL: -- used to be over here. Uh--
SMITH: --but you never wanted to go?
MURRELL: I never wanted to go. Like I say, I just never did, was thekind of person that want to switch jobs. I knew some guys that, that worked, my goodness, fifteen different farms, you know, back during my 01:09:00days. But I always just, I was just a guy that was just stationary, you know. Raise a family and just stayed right there, you know. Uh, and it's been rewarding by doing that, you know, because you really do, people really get to know you if you stay at a place and, and uh, and I got, like I say, I got known so much, because I was at the sales for twenty-five years, and you see all the people that come in at the sales and looking at your horses. And naturally, naturally people get to know you, you know--
MURRELL: --especially when they see you sales after sales after sales.Back then they would usually have three sales a year which was the July uh, Select Sale. Then you'd have the September Sale, and then you would have the November Sale, and then January Sale.
MURRELL: I was at every sale for twenty-five years. (laughs) Fortwenty-five years.
SMITH: No wonder you burned out.
MURRELL: You see why I get burned out. I mean, bad weather, hotweather, whatever, I was there. And back then you be, they used to have what they called sessions. And uh, if your horse was in that last session, it could be twelve o'clock at night before your horse sell.
MURRELL: And you'd be, it just, it would just wear you out. I'd be so01:10:00tired, just dragging in, you know. Uh, I could tell you another story that I had was uh, some of the uh, uh, the celebrities that I met in the horse business.
SMITH: Oh, okay. Who?
MURRELL: Jack Klugman. I had, actually, I had, I don't know what wedone with it. I had his signature.
SMITH: Oh, his autograph.
MURRELL: Yeah, autograph. And uh, and what he done is-is uh, a friendof mine, Dr. Lockridge was his name, and Dr., he was uh, he was a friend, he was a friend, what is, what is his name, what is his name?
SMITH: I don't know.
MURRELL: Uh, Larry Hagman.
SMITH: Oh, okay.
MURRELL: Yeah, his name Larry, and they was at the sales, and I wasshowing this horse to Dr. Lockland. He had Sue Ellen and Larry there, and uh, he introduced me to them. And uh, you know me, I like I say, I never know a stranger. So Larry said, "Oh," says, "since you such a nice guy," says, "I got some money." 'Cause he had that show that, where he had that oil well--
SMITH: --yeah, the Dal-, Dallas--
MURRELL: --yeah, Dallas. So, he said, "I got some money." I said, "Oh,man, then what do you think about this." I was getting happy, and he reached in his pocket and gives me out a whole stack of money that had his picture on it. (laughs) And that was a souvenir though. I brought 01:11:00it home, years ago, and I don't know what ever happened. I don't know what ever happened to it -- give it to my kids.
SMITH: Yeah, probably. (laughs)
MURRELL: And then uh, I met him, and I met Quincy, the guy Quincy.
SMITH: Oh yeah.
MURRELL: I met him uh, uh, I met him. And then this one other guy, wasuh, uh, what's his name, called Dale Robertson. Do you remember him?
MURRELL: Yeah, I met, I met him. And I think those, 'course uh, Hammer,MC Hammer, they, all them guys, those kind of guys looked at horses. Uh, so I been around some celebrities as well, too. Yes, yes.
SMITH: What about trainers? Who were some of the trainers you werearound--
MURRELL: --some of the trainers--
SMITH: -- that you admired?
MURRELL: Uh, uh, D. Wayne was one of them, D. Wayne Lukas, he was, hewas one at the time. They had a, like a special, special uh, interview on TV prior to the Derby or something for, on D. Wayne Lukas. And this was back when he, when he uh, I think he was training for, for Eugene Klein. You remember him?
SMITH: I think so.
MURRELL: That had the Lady's Secret and all those horses back then?
SMITH: Okay, okay.
MURRELL: Winning Colors, guy that owned Winning Colors, back then. I01:12:00think that's right, yeah. And anyway, they asked D. Wayne Lukas on TV said you know, "What is--" He used to get a lot of winners, you remember.
MURRELL: Said, "What is it that you look for in a horse?" And D. Waynesaid, "Aw," said "when I look at a horse, some of 'ems got the cat in it." Just like that -- got the cat. (laughs) So, I was at the, the July Sales that particular year, right after, right after they had that, and uh, he come up and looked at my two horses. And uh, I didn't say nothing. So after he got through, I said, "Hey, D.," I said "what do you see?" (laughs) What, it was funny what he said. He said, "That first one down there, he don't got no cat in him. That second one, he's got the cat in him." (laughs) So, it was, it was kind of funny when he said that.
SMITH: He meant what he said.
MURRELL: He meant what he said.
SMITH: That's right.
MURRELL: Uh, some of the other trainers, like I say, was Jack Van Berguh, that used to come on the farm. Um, Bill Mott, uh, uh, I used to have a jockey used to come here. It was, was it, I believe it was Eddie Delahoussaye. I believe it was. I think it, I think it was him. 01:13:00He used to be a buddy of Mike, Mike Cline, and he used to come down. As a matter-of-fact they used to, matter-of-fact Dale Hancock, that, that's Bull's daughter, Seth's sister, and this jockey--no, I take that back. It was, it was a trainer. And they used to date. Dale used to be down, used to come meet down to the house on the farm.
MURRELL: And it was uh, uh, Stanley Reiser. Stanley Reiser, and itwas Stanley's son that they, they always, Mike Cline, they always date ---------(??) (laughs)
MURRELL: Yes, I forgot about that, but yes, they all used to come here.Uh, some of the other trainers I'm trying to think of that I've been around.
SMITH: You ever around Mack Miller?
MURRELL: Never was around Mack. Did you ever hear of uh, uhHerb Stevens?
SMITH: Oh, yeah.
MURRELL: Herb uh, around Herb, never was around his brother. RememberWoody?
MURRELL: Never around Woody, 'course he's dead. Never was around Woody,but around Herb a lot, because Herb always stabled at Keeneland
MURRELL: --all the time, and I knew a lot of guys that worked forHerb, Herb and things. Um, I'm trying to think of any other trainers 01:14:00I was around. Mm. That's about all I can think of right now, but like I say, I've been around several hundreds of veterinarians you know. Hundreds of veterinarians, young and old. (laughs) And that's probably about all I can come up with there, young lady.
SMITH: All right. Well, all right. Then, we'll go ahead and stop itfor now and--
SMITH: -- I know where you are if--
MURRELL: --give me a call if you--
SMITH: --if I hear some more stories--
MURRELL: (laughs) --if you hear some more stories. Okay.
[End of interview.]