Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History

Interview with Jeff Hockaday, October 3, 2007

Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries
Toggle Index/Transcript View Switch.
Search this Transcript

HOCKADAY: ----------(??)-----------.

LANE: Sure you can--(laugh)--I don't know why not (laughs). Well, this doesn't pick up that far away. Don't worry. We're recording, and if you would, I need a release for the, for the interview, if you don't mind. Oops, I'm sorry, wrong end. Try the other end of that pen. It's a highlighter on one end.

HOCKADAY: ----------(??)

LANE: Just pull off that. Um-hm. Pull off the top.

HOCKADAY: ----------(??).

LANE: (clears throat) [noise] I set up the tape. I'm sitting right here (??) with Jeff Hockaday who was interim president of KCTCS from July to December 1998. Is that correct, sir?



LANE: (sighs) You were, of course, the, the interim president for six months, and the presidential search had been aborted, and on May one the search was renewed with a new search consultant.


LANE: During that time, when did you first hear about this new system? You're personal friends with Mike McCall. Is that correct?

HOCKADAY: Well, I am personal friends with Mike McCall, but that's not where I heard about it.

LANE: Right.

HOCKADAY: I heard about it when Gordon Davies called me and said the governor had asked him for a name of someone who might come as an interim president.

LANE: And so you heard the, about that from Gordon, who was at the time the president of CPE?


LANE: Right. (Hockaday clears throat) And you were in South, South Carolina?


LANE: North Carolina. And what intrigued you about this opportunity or idea?

HOCKADAY: Well, really, at the, at the onset nothing. The, uh, I really 00:02:00was not interested at all, because I had just, um, gotten home good from, you know, from Tampa, and I had just really was not interested in doing this and, and probably said to Gordon about what I'm saying to you. ----------(??)

LANE: I'm just not interested? (laughs)

HOCKADAY: Right. At that point. And then Gordon called me back again and pressed a little bit, and then I finally agreed to talk to Governor Patton. And then (??), you know, I was kind of protecting myself a little bit, myself.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: And I said (??), that is, if you'll come to see me, and I don't have to come see you.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: So Governor Patton flew into Chapel Hill University, uh, airport, and, uh, he and I met for almost a half a day.

LANE: Wow.

HOCKADAY: Um, Governor Patton's a charming guy who--


LANE: Yes he is.

HOCKADAY: --uh, a lot of good sense, a lot of good ideas. And really kind of in a hole over this circumstance.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: And, uh, long story short, I decided to do it, uh, providing they would do two or three things.

LANE: Surely.

HOCKADAY: Which they did.

LANE: Certainly, certainly. At that time, um, was Nelson still, Nelson Grote still here? Was he here? He was here very early. (Hockaday clears throat) Jim Ramsey and Nelson were the two--


LANE: --just filling in, I think.

HOCKADAY: I met with Nelson Grote--

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: --but he was not in office when I came.

LANE: Right. Okay. Um, so, Governor Patton was pretty persuasive then?

HOCKADAY: Yes he was.

LANE: And I know he was passionate about this subject.

HOCKADAY: And he was in a hole.

LANE: Because of the Jim Ramsey situation, you think?

HOCKADAY: Uh, no, because of the bill itself.

LANE: I gotcha.


HOCKADAY: The, uh, university people opposed it so strongly.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: A lot of the people within the system opposed it as, even from both sides. The, um, the labor department side and the university side.

LANE: Right.

HOCKADAY: One group was kind of afraid of the other, and that went both ways. So, there was opposition, strong opposition to the deal. Some compromises had to be made for it to pass.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: And in the wee hours of the morning it did pass.

LANE: Right.

HOCKADAY: Um, but at that point, that left all the work to be done, with still the anger out there--

LANE: Right.

HOCKADAY: --that the bill had passed.

LANE: I spoke with one of the staff members who was there in the early days, Angela Fields.


LANE: Who was there at the office--


LANE: --and is still--

HOCKADAY: Still there.

LANE: --at KCTCS. And she said, literally, in the first days, when the 00:05:00meetings were held, the technical people sat on one side of the room with their arms folded.

HOCKADAY: They did.

LANE: And the community college folks on the other side with lots of fear and trepidation--


LANE: --and anger and whatever.


LANE: So you walked into a bit of a hornet's nest or a hole, as you call it.

HOCKADAY: Well it, it, it was, but the feelings that the technical people had and feelings the, uh, transfer people had--

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: --um, were, were expected. You know, that's kind of how you would feel if you were in either camp. In either--

LANE: They were coming into a whole new world--

HOCKADAY: A whole new world.

LANE: --an unknown world.

HOCKADAY: And, and why shake up a good circumstance.

LANE: Right. Right.

HOCKADAY: The university pe-, uh--

LANE: --they didn't realize it was a big issue politically--

HOCKADAY: Unh-uh. No

LANE: --on the state level--


LANE: --did they?

HOCKADAY: Unh-uh. They just didn't like it--

LANE: ----------(??)----------

HOCKADAY: --they just didn't, there was mistrust--

LANE: Yes.

HOCKADAY: --between two groups.

LANE: Yes, and as Angela said--I, I found her viewpoint fascinating. 00:06:00She was a student at LCC the day the governor flew in--


LANE: --his helicopter to make this announcement.


LANE: And she said I went home saying what my professors or my, my instructor said, "What are they thinking, what is he thinking about?"


LANE: She said I was a good Democrat, and I went home saying what is he thinking about?


LANE: So she said that was just all over the campus for those, the first few weeks. And so, you, you were charged with trying to pull some of that together.

HOCKADAY: Um-hm. (laughs)

LANE: Some of that together. Did you, you didn't move to, to Kentucky, or did you commute or?

HOCKADAY: No I had--

LANE: --stay at, in the office in Frankfort?

HOCKADAY: I had a suite at the Holiday Inn in Frankfort.

LANE: Um-hm. So you would stay during the week?

HOCKADAY: Yeah, and go home. My wife would come out some--

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: --some weekends, I'd go home some weekends.

LANE: Um-hm. Um-hm. Um, according to Angela she asked me to remind you 00:07:00of a story about staff being pretty hard on your car one day.

HOCKADAY: (both laugh)

LANE: She, she said you, you would chuckle about that, but it wasn't funny at the time.

HOCKADAY: Well, it wasn't at the time, but--

LANE: --(laugh)--just pulling it around the parking lot and got the door knocked off, huh?

HOCKADAY: Got the door knocked off.

LANE: Oh, well. They have very fond, uh, memories of those days. The, everyone I've talked to has said it was hectic, it was crazy, there were many questions that couldn't be answered, but they, that they felt like they were doing something important.

HOCKADAY: I think they do. The, uh, quarters they were in were horrible.

LANE: And there in Frankfort at the?


LANE: --office complex yeah. Not, not enough room. How did you, how, how were the decisions made as far as who became that core team? Were they in place when you came aboard?

HOCKADAY: Uh, it was the same team that Ramsey had.

LANE: The transition?

HOCKADAY: Trans-, it was called a transition team.

LANE: Yes. I've read those minutes. Um, so you, you didn't have to 00:08:00find other folks--


LANE: --to, to fill in?


LANE: And that sort of thing. And, so were those folks pretty much on board with this? Is that why they were there?

HOCKADAY: Well, some of them were true bureaucrats.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: Uh, and I mean that in the best sense.

LANE: I know. I understand.

HOCKADAY: And they, they understand what the game plan is--

LANE: --what needs to be done--

HOCKADAY: --and that's what they do. Others were, um, community college types, and there were some people kind of in between--

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: --that, uh, the more they worked the more they fell in love with what they were doing--

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: --kind of thing.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: --and became some really good staff people. Beth Hilliard would be one, um, who has become a real leader--

LANE: Oh, definitely.

HOCKADAY: --in the system actually.

LANE: Definitely.

HOCKADAY: The, uh, but it's a, you know, the community college is really 00:09:00n-, not a geographic location. It's an attitude on, about how you treat people.

LANE: Hmm.

HOCKADAY: And people kind of fall in love with that. And so it's easy to convert, uh, people who have been at the university or public school or bureaucrat, or whatever--

LANE: Right.

HOCKADAY: --once they get into it. They kind of convert themselves to, uh, you know, this is really pretty good.

LANE: Pretty good because they see the lives that are changed?

HOCKADAY: They see the lives that are changed and they see the attitude.

LANE: Right. Right. And the community based spirit about those community colleges.

HOCKADAY: Right. Right. Right.

LANE: I thought that was interesting to hear Richard Bean say that this morning.


LANE: That we had, we realized that U.K. had quite a bit of political clout with those community colleges all over the state.

HOCKADAY: It was their clout.

LANE: We realized we had, had to play that game too.


LANE: Now, Gordon's, Gordon's attitudes are interesting because he, uh, 00:10:00he's, he's still worried about the, the politics, obviously.


LANE: You know we always will have--


LANE: --that situation.


LANE: Yeah. (Hockaday clears throat) Now during the time you came on board, uh, just about the time you came, KCTCS received approval to grant its first degrees.


LANE: First programs


LANE: First new--


LANE: --associate programs.


LANE: And then the first new facility in November under KCTCS management.


LANE: Now were you involved in, in--you probably were in the November decision, but the, the degrees (??)--

HOCKADAY: I was involved in the decisions. Now some of them may have been preliminarily--

LANE: Right.

HOCKADAY: --up and running.

LANE: Right. Right.

HOCKADAY: But the, the grant degrees and the, uh, relationship with, uh, SACS.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: Came, kind of came to a head while I was here.

LANE: Yes.

HOCKADAY: Because I spent a lot of time w-, on that in Atlanta. ------- ---(??)

LANE: Think that was your biggest challenge during those six months, that accreditation--



LANE: --issue?

HOCKADAY: --the biggest challenge was attitudes.

LANE: Attitudes?

HOCKADAY: No question about that.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: But under that was the university, was still shooting at the decision.

LANE: Right.

HOCKADAY: Now the university was not shooting at people. It was shooting at the decision--

LANE: Hmm.

HOCKADAY: --because the university was giving up a very strong political base.

LANE: Definitely.

HOCKADAY: And, uh, uh, Wethington knew that because Wethington's a smart guy.

LANE: Um-hm (??).

HOCKADAY: And he knew that he could, uh, have a great political base with those community colleges. And he feared he would be giving it up if they left and to some ex-, extent it was justified.

LANE: And he was one of them?

HOCKADAY: And he was one of them.

LANE: And he had come from the community colleges.


LANE: I'm sure--


LANE: --he felt a responsibility.

HOCKADAY: Right, he did.

LANE: In that regard.

HOCKADAY: And if I--

LANE: And he was very passionate--

HOCKADAY: --and were I in his shoes, I would have done the same thing probably.


LANE: May have. May have. It's interesting, because he spoke with Dr. McCall's, uh, presidents last October. He's actually doing, uh, an oral history project--


LANE: --collecting the, the` history of the community colleges.


LANE: And he, he said, "I'm, I'm with you Mike." And I thought that was very interesting.


LANE: I think (??) that was very much appreciated.


LANE: I think he has, at this juncture, seen, uh, I don't know if he would say it was for the best, but he said, "I'm with you."


LANE: Which, which we found positive.


LANE: Uh--

HOCKADAY: --and a change.

LANE: Um-hm. Very much a change. (Hockaday clears throat) It was very bitter. Uh, I, I don't know if you've read, uh, Myk Garn's dissertation on the '97 reform. Myk works at CPE.


LANE: And his doctoral dissertation was on the '97 reform and it reads like a soap opera novel. As far as those late night decisions and the compromises, and he interviewed many, many people. It's quite well done. Um, but there's, there was, it was bitter, bitter rancor among--



LANE: --among the factions. Um, as mentioned by Angela.


LANE: Students were convinced that, that they were just being terribly--


LANE: --mistreated.

HOCKADAY: Railroaded, yeah.

LANE: Terribly mistreated. (Hockaday clears throat) Now are there highlights of those first few months in your mind?

HOCKADAY: Well, trying to build morale. Um, new people coming together, not knowing each other. Um, trying to have a president's meeting where, um, there could be civility.

LANE: There wasn't early on?

HOCKADAY: It was, it, they did not attack each other, but they feared each other.

LANE: Hmm.

HOCKDAY: Or one group felt superior to the other type thing. Um, community college people would see a, uh, weakening of resources, and 00:14:00also a weakening of faculty preparations, all those kinds of things. And the labor, labor union people or the technical schools would feel, uh, the liberal arts types will take over the system--

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: --because they've got that job ------------(??) (??).

LANE: Yes, oh, yes, yes.

HOCKADAY: And, and that's just natural as rain.

LANE: Well, of course it is. And we know that there's always some p-, uh, academic elitism that some of those, as you say, the community--


LANE: --college folks felt like they had higher degrees.


LANE: Uh, fascinating to me, and amazing that it's been pulled together very well, and you certainly were instrumental in the--


LANE: --beginning of that, but I'm sure it wasn't easy.

HOCKADAY: -- it, it has done well, but there were other issues like, you know, it's a new system, and it's normal for people to try to find a place in the sun in something--

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: --that is new--


LANE: --and some of that was political.

LANE: A scramble, if you will.

HOCKADAY: There were, there were some politicians, uh, honorable people in the state who saw it as an opportunity to really do something back home--

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: --and so they, they pressured a lot.

LANE: For certain--

HOCKADAY: Wanting to get first in line in pressuring to get things--

LANE: Right. Yeah.

HOCKADAY: --like buildings and things.

LANE: Of course, we need, if this is going to happen then we'll see that our, you know, that's a tough thing, isn't it?


LANE: If you're representing a region of the state?


LANE: And you're responsible to those folks--


LANE: --who sent you to Frankfort--


LANE: --but yet state-, good statesmen try to take a broad view. That, that's a tough--


LANE: --mix isn't it?

HOCKADAY: --in a, in a fight this close, there were a lot of legislators who did not want to see it happen.

LANE: Right.

HOCKADAY: There were some who did, of course.

LANE: That's true.

HOCKADAY: Because of, uh--

LANE: --the vote was not overwhelming.


HOCKADAY: The, uh, but those who had favored it looked for advantages, and those who had not favored it, jumped on the bandwagon politically, and they did so because they did not want their communities to lose.

LANE: Exact-, well, that's, that's--

HOCKADAY: --so now that, that was a tug of war.

LANE: That, a real tug--so you had the presidents, and you had the legislators, and everybody shuffling and, and seeing where things were gonna fall out?

HOCKADAY: Trying to find a place in the sun.

LANE: That place in the sun. It's a good way to put that. Interesting.

HOCKADAY: That was not easy.


HOCKADAY: The, uh--

LANE: I can see that.

HOCKADAY: --then there was another piece (??). I don't know if, and Gordon may have told you this. The regional universities had wanted, not a new system, but the community colleges to become theirs.

LANE: Yes. Yes.

HOCKADAY: And that was a major issue.

LANE: Hmm.

HOCKADAY: Now it died quickly. Because it didn't take a genius to see 00:17:00that as long as Patton was governor it was going to fly. Because he gonna put the money there and the pressure. Which he did. Um, I mean, Governor Patton was so close to this project that he would be likely to pick up the telephone and just call you in person and say, "Jeff, how's it going?"

LANE: Um-hm. Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: Which he did.

LANE: It was his legacy.

HOCKADAY: And that's quite unusual.

LANE: Yes. I'm sure.

HOCKADAY: Um, but--

LANE: --did you know him before that?

HOCKADAY: No. I did not.

LANE: Just, you just met him that first time?

HOCKADAY: I met him in the Chapel Hill.

LANE: When he came to visit--to convention?


LANE: Hmm. He was quite a strong-willed, strong-minded individual--


LANE: Is. Still. Today. It's interesting to see him at the, the annual foundation gala, galas. I attended the one last year. And he's, he's the one that a line forms to shake his hand in this community.


HOCKADAY: Absolutely.

LANE: Yeah. Yeah.

HOCKADAY: Because he is the idea behind the--

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: --merger--

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: --on, it will be his legacy--

LANE: Yes.

HOCKADAY: --probably. Uh, and it's a great idea. It's just hard to make it work.

LANE: Implementation's tough.

HOCKADAY: Well, some retirements will help it, and I don't mean that negatively.

LANE: No. I understand perfectly.

HOCKADAY: The, um, but new people will not have the baggage of, of the other--

LANE: Right. Right.

HOCKADAY: --and its real tough for people who've been attached to the university to all of a sudden be unattached.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: But I thought the board made some good, uh, intermediate decisions by letting the retirement stay and, you know--

LANE: --it had to take the best of--

HOCKADAY: --what they could get--

LANE: --both systems.

HOCKADAY: And, and, uh, but what that caused was about three different kinds of employees.

LANE: Exactly--(laugh).

HOCKADAY: Which was another problem.

LANE: And they're, they're gradually being, well, I don't say phased 00:19:00out, but some of those folks retiring, and some of them are opting--


LANE: --into the other system. But KCTCS is seen, by particularly by, by those in state government, as a superior system.


LANE: Benefit-wise.


LANE: Uh, I, I thought they made some pretty, some wise choices as well--


LANE: --because I have been in state government. Um, so during that time you were, you were studying the personnel policies.


LANE: You had a--


LANE: --task force or team for that.

HOCKADAY: Um-hm, we did.

LANE: And where you working on People Soft and, uh, and the, uh, the technical part of it yet?

HOCKADAY: Uh, just preliminarily. Really, that got going after Myk came, but what we had done in preparation of Myk's coming was we had brought a person from University of Louisville, who came in as the ground runner, uh, advisor, uh, recommender--

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: --on how that might be done.

LANE: Ron Moore, I believe.


HOCKADAY: But it was not implemented--

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: --nor was it created when I was here.

LANE: I see.

HOCKADAY: That came after Myk came.

LANE: But you knew that was something that had, you had to begin?

HOCKADAY: Yeah, it had to begin.

LANE: Had to pull all those students together, and do your, have your personnel system on line, and that sort of thing.

HOCKADAY: President of, uh, the University of Louisville gave us a guy for a year.

LANE: Ron Moore.


LANE: Dr. Moore.


LANE: Right. I've read about him. I wanted, wanted to chat with him as well.

HOCKADAY: His house is decorated in purple.

LANE: It is? (laugh).

HOCKADAY: I went there for some dinner one night, and it was unbelievable. I mean everything in the house was purple.

LANE: Was purple? Well you like grapes, maybe you should--

HOCKADAY: Some color, some color of purple.

LANE: (laughs) Fascinating.

HOCKADAY: Uh, his wife worked at CPE.

LANE: Oh, she did?

HOCKADAY: Yeah. Um-hm.

LANE: Hmm. I know there's a Paulette Moore that I know there, so it may be her.


LANE: She--

HOCKADAY: --she's not there now, probably.

LANE: Okay.

HOCKADAY: But she -----------(??)--

LANE: I'm not sure. I interviewed Dr. Layzell (Hockaday clears throat)--


LANE: Who was retiring--


LANE: --last week. And he's very, very complimentary and, and 00:21:00invariably those people who have a broad view say they feel that KCTCS is the shining star of the reform.

HOCKADAY: No question about it.

LANE: Gordon's worried about CPE. You know, the politics as usual business. He's, he's concerned about that and, and I understand where he's coming from.

HOCKADAY: Well, Gordon is a, uh, purist.

LANE: He is, isn't he?

HOCKADAY: Uh, he--

LANE: --would you like water?

HOCKADAY: No. I'm okay.

LANE: Something to drink?

HOCKADAY: I, I'll get some. He believes that right will always prevail.

LANE: Prevail.

HOCKADAY: Or he thinks it should.

LANE: Yes. I know.

HOCKADAY: Well, I guess everybody thinks it should, but he, it doesn't.

LANE: He--no--(laugh)--sometimes reality takes a--

HOCKADAY: --and Gordon is the kind of guy, he's usually right.

LANE: Um-hm. Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: And when he is right he's, uh, has a lot of courage.

LANE: Yeah. Yeah.

HOCKADAY: And he makes a lot of enemies.

LANE: Um-hm. Um-hm.


HOCKADAY: Uh, and if he's right he likes friends, but he will not let friendship get in the way of--

LANE: What he--

HOCKADAY: --a decision he needs to make. Because he's single-minded about doing right.

LANE: Yes. I can tell that. Something he, I read something he said to Myk Garn in the interview was, he said, "I think, to put it in a nutshell, Governor Patton's an engineer." He was talking about his departure--


LANE: --from Kentucky. And when he said, "I want this job done", he meant I want you to build a bridge--


LANE: --and I'm thinking, Okay I'll get the job done. We'll go on down the trail. If we come to a river we'll build a bridge.


LANE: I thought that was an interesting--


LANE: --analogy.


LANE: An interesting way to--


LANE: --to put it.


LANE: Uh, but he, he sat here this morning. He said, "You know, this is the first time I've been back in Kentucky, and I wasn't, I hadn't been aware of that." So I thanked him and told--


LANE: --him I thought he was well respected for his vision, and, and I 00:23:00think he is.

HOCKADAY: Um-hm. He is--

LANE: --certainly is--

HOCKADAY: --he, um, he's a fighter.

LANE: Um-hm. For what he believes.

HOCKADAY: And fighters get killed.

LANE: They do. They get hurt. They get wounded, don't they?


LANE: You're right. So Mike McCall--you were, came on board in January of 1999, and you were ob-, observed the search process, the one that--


LANE: --had to be put aside--


LANE: --and a new one begun and, uh, according to Richard Bean, whom I've heard discuss this was not an easy thing, but the board, pretty strong board there, and I'm sure with your leadership it just--


LANE: --you knew what it required.

HOCKADAY: Richard was not a chair. Martha Johnson was chair--

LANE: Martha was the chair, you're right, you're right.

HOCKADAY: And, uh, they had, uh, they had three candidates. The, uh, see, Mike had worked for me in Virginia. Uh, he left Virginia and went to South Carolina and became state director of South Carolina. And which we had a good friendship and always have had. And, uh, I kind of 00:24:00twisted his arm, I guess. Because he had a good job--

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: --and this was a risk.

LANE: Yes.

HOCKADAY: But he did apply for it, and, uh, he applied Berry Russell who is now South Carolina's director.

LANE: All right. (laughs)

HOCKADAY: Uh, and a guy from California, but it kind of came down to Russell and McCall, and the board liked McCall--

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: --better I guess--

LANE: Hmm.

HOCKADAY: --and ----------(??)--

LANE: --that worked well--

HOCKADAY: --which was a stroke of genius.

LANE: Well. I, I sense so. I, I, I think, I agree with you.

HOCKADAY: Is that so?

LANE: I've been in state government for many years. I was Executive Director of the Governor's Mansions for a couple--


LANE: --of our governors. And then at the History Center, and during, watching CPE and higher ed and what was happening, because I'm an educator by profession. And it's, when I came last year to KCTCS I was amazed at the, at what had been accomplished, at the team work 00:25:00involved--


LANE: --in accomplishing that. Teamwork is really, there are so many teams at KCTCS that they don't run over each other--


LANE: --but you wonder why they don't. But, you know, that creates an openness.


LANE: Uh, and an inclusion into the decision making process, that's, it's very healthy from my observation.


LANE: And I'm sure you had a part in beginning that sort of attitude, as you say--


LANE: --in the process.

HOCKADAY: --the credit for this, me, the credit for the efficiency here is Mike through, you know, several others played, uh, you know, roles around--

LANE: --you kept it together--

HOCKADAY: --around--

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: --this surface, but the, uh, but when the, where the progress began was with Mike. See Mike, Mike is a scientist.


LANE: Phys-, a physicist, is he a physicist?

HOCKADAY: A physicist.

LANE: ----------(??)

HOCKADAY: Um, and while that doesn't much mean much to me because I'm an idea person--

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: --and I don't care a thing more about details--

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: --but Mike cares about details--

LANE: Hmm.

HOCKADAY: --and I don't mean he doesn't care, have ideas--

LANE: Right.

HOCKADAY: --'cause he does.

LANE: A visionary.

HOCKADAY: But he really cares about details. Uh, he wants everything in place. Organized, synchronized--

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: --um, accountable type guy. And needing a new system is what you gotta do.

LANE: Yes.


LANE: Every detail is important.

HOCKADAY: --so I told Gordon this morning that it was fortuitous. Mike's set of skills fitted (??) exactly, excuse me, fitted (??) exactly what they need here.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: And Mike is the only person I know whose skills ------- ---(??)-----------. Because you got to have a little bit of that 00:27:00managerial feeling, and you've gotta be creative. And Mike is both of those. Now, I'm not management at all. I want to think something, and say Marvin, take this, flesh it out, see what you think, come back and let's talk.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: Involve so-and-so, and, you know, that's how I am. But Mike is not that way as much as I am.

LANE: Hmm.

HOCKADAY: Mike will say, uh, he will pound it out and give it to you. And then see what you think--

LANE: --see what you think.

HOCKADAY: --about it. But, I'm not good at that.

LANE: Now if you have suggestions is he pretty--(Hockaday clears throat)--is he pretty, uh, reasonable about accepting those, or does, is it just pretty much--

HOCKADAY: --Yes, no, he's very--

LANE: --accurate the first way he pounded it out?

HOCKADAY: He, he, uh--well, it's pretty close (Lane laughs). But he will back up--

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: --and re-do, uh, he's very, uh, appreciative of someone's 00:28:00input. Uh, he will change his mind--

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: --unlike Gordon. Gordon won't--

LANE: No. Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: --change his mind.

LANE: Hmm.

HOCKADAY: Um, Mike has great people skills. He really and genuinely cares about people. Um, and it shows. Um, he, he, uh, his philosophy in life is a lot like the philosophy in the community college. He's kind to people. He cares about people. He loves to see people do well. Um, he's very appreciative of anything that people, uh, do for him--

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: --or do well.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: Um, he's-

LANE: He's an encourager.

HOCKADAY: He, uh, yeah, he's pretty close. Uh, that was a great decision the board made in, in hiring him. There's no question about it. I don't know anybody else could, could, could a done it.


LANE: Yeah, I don't, I haven't heard anybody who's questioned that decision.

HOCKADAY: I haven't eith--

LANE: Have you?--

HOCKADAY: I haven't either.

LANE: Haven't heard anybody who has.

HOCKADAY: It's just a, a fortunate thing.

LANE: He's a fresh face--

HOCKADAY: No ties--

LANE: --with the skills--

HOCKADAY: --no political ties.

LANE: That's right. That's right.

HOCKADAY: No baggage.

LANE: No baggage. No.


LANE: And someone who had come from this world. Who knew how to--


LANE: --how to pull those, those two together.


LANE: Um, that's one of the things Gordon said in his parting remarks. That he felt the reason this, and particularly KCTCS as part of the reform would work, is because Lee Todd and Mike McCall were new faces.


LANE: And, and would be very effective.


LANE: That would be the difference. Not the same old--


LANE: --same old game.

HOCKADAY: Yeah, because the, um, before this, this, uh, higher education system was pretty much man-handled by a couple of people.


LANE: Um-hm. The eight-hundred-pound gorilla?


LANE: Universally commented upon, uh, frustration with the legislature.


LANE: Uh, studies that had been done that were ignored.


LANE: Uh, Tim Burcham says, you know, the stars were aligned for this reform. Maybe never again will those conditions be the same, and have a--

HOCKADAY: Um-hm. I think that's true.

LANE: --chance with Paul Patton.

HOCKADAY: I think that is true.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: I don't think it could be done later or sooner.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: It, um, it was the age Aquarius--

LANE: (laughs) It was time.

HOCKADAY: I mean, it just happened. Uh, Paul Patton--

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: --without Paul Patton it would never have happened.

LANE: Right.


LANE: --needed the champion with the political will--


LANE: --and power, if you will, to get it done.

HOCKADAY: Well, there were some--

LANE: --and that was rough--

HOCKADAY: --lessons learned by people. You can't beat a governor.

LANE: Yeah.

HOCKADAY: I don't care if he's a good governor or a bad governor. You can't beat a governor.

LANE: Hmm.

HOCKADAY: A governor can, can trade to the point that he can get done 00:31:00what he wants done. An educator can't beat a governor.

LANE: Yeah.

HOCKADAY: And you have to learn that.

LANE: Hmm.

HOCKADAY: It was hard for Charlie to learn that.

LANE: I don't think he, I don't think he would have tried as hard as he did, had he not known he had that leg-, those legislators with that political--

HOCKADAY: Yes, he--

LANE: --strength behind him.

HOCKADAY: Well, that's true. Absolutely. I--

LANE: If he had been there on his own he may not have even attempted that, but he felt like maybe they could win because of the strength, that political strength from statewide with those community colleges.


LANE: It was, it was a risk.

HOCKADAY: Well, he still won some.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: You know, he won some rules that were really heartbreaking, backbreaking for this system. Like who appoints board members.

LANE: Right.

HOCKADAY: Uh, who approves whose budget. But now Southern Association 00:32:00broke that.

LANE: They did, didn't they?

HOCKADAY: Because, uh, the first thing they told me when I went down there, "Listen, you're going on academic probation immediately if you don't break that."

LANE: Who is the granter of degrees.

HOCKADY: You're right.

LANE: And who is--

HOCKADAY: You're absolutely right.

LANE: --the approver of programs--


LANE: --and the budget and that sort of thing.

HOCKADAY: And a major backbreaker was the ability to, uh, um, um, give degrees.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: I mean, that was really a turnaround and, of course, the, uh, the budget oversight (??) and appointing trustees was easier because the first really broke the back.

LANE: Right.

HOCKADAY: Because it was clear at that point, and it was used against the university. It will be said worldwide you put this system on probation.

LANE: Um-hm. Yeah.

HOCKADAY: And they could--

LANE: --couldn't do that.

HOCKADAY: --not afford that.

LANE: No, they could not do that. Um--

HOCKADAY: --and Martha, uh, Johnson was tough as they come. ----------- 00:33:00(??)----------

LANE: Tough.

HOCKADAY: She's kind of like Gordon, she just tells it like it is--

LANE: Hmm.

HOCKADAY: --and she just simply said you do this, we'll do that.

LANE: Hmm.

HOCKADAY: And they backed--

LANE: --and that worked?

HOCKADAY: And they backed up.

LANE: Huh. Well, I think they were realists in that regard, as you say, U.K. couldn't afford to--

HOCKADAY: Well, see the thing--

LANE: --add that on there--

HOCKADAY: --to feel with the--there's strong belief in the Commonwealth a-, among people who know that the university, that the community colleges were discriminated against financially--

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: --in the university system. Which was Patton's motivation to take 'em out.

LANE: Yes.

HOCKADAY: According to Patton.

LANE: Yeah.

HOCKADAY: Um, it is pretty darn clear that that was the truth. All right. If you're on the other side of the fence and this is being taken away from you, then you're, you're losing your flexibility in 00:34:00the budget.

LANE: True.

HOCKADAY: Because that doesn't cost you as much as the other does.

LANE: Right.

HOCKADAY: And, uh, you, somebody will be taking away your easy money. And that's what the university feared. I, that's why they wanted financial control over the KCTCS budget.

LANE: Right.

HOCKADAY: Which they got in that midnight meeting.

LANE: Um-hm. Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: But now SACS took that out. I mean, you can't be accredited--

LANE: Can't do it.

HOCKADAY: --if an outside source has control over your budget.

LANE: Your budget. SACS -----------(??)--

HOCKADAY: And appointing your trustees or, or regents.

LANE: Approving your programs, confirming your degrees.

HOCKADAY: And approving your programs.

LANE: Couldn't do it--


LANE: --couldn't do it, could you? Of course they, they, they did keep LCC.


LANE: Right? Until the Lexington--


LANE: Which is now Bluegrass.


LANE: Until 2004.

HOCKADAY: That's about right. Yeah.


LANE: And then that became an issue with their accreditation, basically.


LANE: That SACS pretty much drove that one too.

HOCKADAY: And SACS, because SACS was so involved in the first piece.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: It then got involved in the second piece.

LANE: Well.


LANE: --that did leave LCC sort of out there in the no man's land, to a degree--


LANE: --didn't it?

HOCKADAY: It did. Um, but LCC would be a real moneymaker for the university.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: They didn't do technical education, which is so expensive. They didn't have shops--

LANE: Right.

HOCKADAY: --which is so expensive.

LANE: Right.

HOCKADAY: They just did liberal-arts classroom, traditional teaching, and there's where you earn your FDE's.

LANE: Um-hm. Um-hm. All right. That--there were so much going on then. I, I, I just imagine it was just invigorating and overwhelming and -----------(??)--

HOCKADAY: Every day was a circus.

LANE: (laughs) Every day was a circus (laughs). Who's on first or 00:36:00who's--

HOCKADAY: ----------(??).

LANE: --who's on the high wire and-


LANE: --and what's really gonna come, come of this. So you, uh, after Mike McCall came then you returned, did you return to your previous position or what did you go on to?

HOCKADAY: No, I had retired, I went--

LANE: Retired.

HOCKADAY: I just went back home.

LANE: Retired. Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: What interaction have you had with KCTCS other than the obvious, you being here today at the leadership conference?

HOCKADAY: Well that's, that's--

LANE: Have you done that every year?

HOCKADAY: Uh, yeah. Uh, he's done it since 2000.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: And I have been here every year. And that, I, I've helped in the recruiting of some presidents.

LANE: Um-hm.


LANE: Back when (laughs).

HOCKADAY: --and those are the only two times.

LANE: True.

HOCKADAY: That's the only two things I do.

LANE: What do you hear on the national front about, particularly KCTCS?

HOCKADAY: Uh, that it has kind of arrived. That it was the last great 00:37:00last frontier--

LANE: Hmm.

HOCKADAY: --to do something different.

LANE: Hmm.

HOCKADAY: Um, that Mike's a tremendous leader. Um, that some good things were happening in Kentucky, and it's a good place to work.

LANE: Great.

HOCKADAY: Uh, it's easy to recruit people for presidencies here.

LANE: Hmm.


LANE: Good--


LANE: --the, all good news.

HOCKADAY: All good news.

LANE: Nine years in.

HOCKADAY: Nine years in.

LANE: And to me that's amazing.


LANE: Very am--

HOCKADAY: It is amazing, it really is.

LANE: I applaud them for pulling together their history for the, for the ten years. We need to celebrate that--

HOCKADAY: Well it--

LANE: --in formal fashion.

HOCKADAY: --because history gets further in the past.

LANE: That's right.

HOCKADAY: And, you know, these things are not fresh, and ten years from now you cannot put together the people you put together.

LANE: No, no, that's exactly right. That's exactly right. Uh--

HOCKADAY: The governor Breathitt--

LANE: Uh--

HOCKADAY: --died. So you missed him.

LANE: Yeah. Yeah, he's gone. He's gone. I, I, I have Myk, Myk Garn's 00:38:00wonderful interview with him that's just, he said, she said, this is what happened--


LANE: --this is what we did. It's wonderful.


LANE: It's absolutely a wonderful collection of interviews that Myk was able to do in 2002. This was before we lost Governor Breathitt.


LANE: He was a friend of mine. I, I, he was quite a gentleman.

HOCKADAY: I liked him a lot.

LANE: I liked him a lot, and I know he was doing what he felt like he needed to do.

HOCKADAY: He was doing what, uh, Charlie advised him he should do.

LANE: That's very true, that is true. Although he, in his inter-, interview--

HOCKADAY: --but he changed.

LANE: He mentioned the fact that actually Governor Combs formed the community college system, and he as governor had to implement it.


LANE: So, so he had a--

HOCKADAY: He, he--

LANE: --personal connection.

HOCKADAY: --changed along the accreditation thing really caught his attention.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: Because I remember--


LANE: Nobody messes with that.

HOCKADAY: And, right. And, uh, because he was in the meeting where Martha and I was on one side of the table and, uh, Richard was there.

LANE: Hmm.

HOCKADAY: On, and on the other side of the table was Charlie, somebody like a business office.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: --and Governor Breathitt--

LANE: Governor Breathitt.

HOCKADAY: --was at the head of the table. And the conversation went to, uh, do you want the blame for the lack of accreditation.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: Because that's what you're gonna get.

LANE: Hmm.

HOCKADAY: And Governor Breathitt said something like, "That's not gonna happen." He was looking at his left and not towards us--


LANE: Well, he knew it couldn't happen.

HOCKADAY: Uh, because, you know, you couldn't, because you got forty- thousand students out there--

LANE: Yeah.

HOCKADAY: --uh, who would be marching on the streets.

LANE: Yeah.


LANE: He, you're right he did, he, he knew that you just could not fight that.

HOCKADAY: You couldn't do it.

LANE: You just had to have it clean.

HOCKADAY: And then it began to fall apart.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: Uh, but SACS was the impetus, now SACS was used also--

LANE: True.

HOCKADAY: To be (??) the impetus.

LANE: True.

HOCKADAY: Uh, 'cause I don't know how many times Martha and I went to Atlanta, but it was several.

LANE: Several times.

HOCKADAY: Um, and they came up, too.

LANE: Yes, they came for the visits and--


LANE: Do you, did you ever dream in those days that we'd be approaching ninety-thousand students?


LANE: Did you?

HOCKADAY: No, and nobody else did. Unh-uh. Uh, I mean, the wildest dreamer would not even dream that. In fact, there would have been. 00:41:00Uh, you (??) kind of nudged to say the enrollment might drop?

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: For awhile--

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: --and then go back.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: But it didn't. The, uh, I don't know, I think the faculties in the technical college came around quicker in greater percentages than did the transcript people in the community college. But the, some leadership sprung up among the presidents--

LANE: Hmm.

HOCKADAY: --and that was kind of one-on-one working with presidents.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: Trying to find a leader who would be listening to you on, the best you could get would be to say, "Well they may not be the best, but it's what we've got. Now let's make the most out of it."


LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: That's kind of where the presidents got to-

LANE: I see.


LANE: They were sure it was a reality, because there were stories in the early days it was not gonna last.

HOCKADAY: Wasn't gonna last, wasn't gonna go back (??)--

LANE: --it wasn't gonna happen--

HOCKADAY: --and, but then when the board starting hustling towards a permanent president--

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: --bam, ----------(??), the handwriting--

LANE: Yeah. Yeah.

HOCKADAY: --was on the wall, I guess.

LANE: Yeah, I would say that was--

HOCKADAY: --and again everybody looks for their places.

LANE: (laughs) Right.

HOCKADAY: And some leadership sprung up among the presidents. The, um, then some presidents retired.

LANE: Oh--

HOCKADAY: And see, new people came in who were hired by KCTCS--

LANE: Right. Right.

HOCKADAY: --and not by Charlie.

LANE: Right.


LANE: --that changed the whole complexion of the group, didn't it?

HOCKADAY: Um-hm. Slowly.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: The, uh, Jim Ramsey was, uh, Patton's right hand--

LANE: Yes.

HOCKADAY: --as you know.

LANE: Yes.

HOCKADAY: Probably a good move to put him in as interim first. The, 00:43:00uh, for several reasons. One is, Jim's personality is that you kind of like the guy.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: Because he's a nice guy.

LANE: He is.

HOCKADAY: The, uh, that would help. Um, I am not arrogant, and that would help. You know, in, in, in when everybody's kind of down-and-out in LA, my job was to build morale.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: Uh, ask questions, even if I knew the answers to them.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: Uh, to make 'em feel like they were somebody.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: That's the role I had to play, and I did that--

LANE: An important--

HOCKADAY: --pretty well.

LANE: An important role. Well--

HOCKADAY: The, uh--

LANE: --you believe that I, I sense that you believe that, you don't, it's not a--


LANE: -- a facade--

HOCKADAY: Well, I do.

LANE: --that's what you believe.

HOCKADAY: And, but now, if I had been a dictator--


LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: --it, it could've fallen apart.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: If Tim had been it could've, or if Mike--

LANE: Interesting.

HOCKADAY: --and Mike is, uh, uh, Mike is more direct than I am. But at that time that he could begin to do that--

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: --because it was beginning to shape.

LANE: Right.

HOCKADAY: And there were a lot of people feeling it's not going back to the way it was, although they hoped it would.

LANE: I know, some still hoped it would.

HOCKADAY: And then the board makes some decisions, instead of being arrogant, it said, "Okay, you can keep this status and we'll just go with three groups until everybody dies out." Well, that helped.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: Now, but if the board had been very arrogant--

LANE: You're right. It would've been easier for sys-, system-wise--

HOCKADAY: Su-, sure. Oh yeah. The best decision would've been to say we're gonna be one.

LANE: Yeah. Yeah.

HOCKADAY: But, it just wasn't politic.

LANE: Gordon says we, we threw a lot of money at that reform.



LANE: And of course, we raised som-, raised some salaries.


LANE: Gave some increases. Do you, do you feel like that was, was, was a good part of making them feel a little more appreciated?

HOCKADAY: Well, see--

LANE: It almost seems essential to me but--


LANE: I'm--

HOCKADAY: --seems there, you know, if you put two things together that are unequal, then you've got to do two things. You've got to assure the ones who are flush that you're not gonna take away--

LANE: Right.

HOCKADAY: --to do something--

LANE: Right.

HOCKADAY: --down here, but you've gotta make these feel like they've got to one day be equals--

LANE: Right.

HOCKADAY: --to this without pulling them down.

LANE: That's right.

HOCKADAY: Uh, which never happened.

LANE: Unh-uh.

HOCKADAY: It never happened.

LANE: No. It just--

HOCKADAY: Uh, because down here a decision was made while I was here, that we've gotta do a lot of things by certification.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: So, you raise your standard by raising your certifications.

LANE: Um-hm. Um-hm.


LANE: Definitely.


HOCKADAY: So they kind of earned it. But there was a gradual coming like this, but this also moved up.


HOCKADAY: This just moved up faster.

LANE: Yes.

HOCKADAY: Was the decision. Now, while the faculty in the community college system did not particularly like that, uh, it was hard to fight it, because they were getting five percent.

LANE: That's true--(laugh)--that's right.

HOCKADAY: While they might have gotten seven, they were getting five.

LANE: That's, that's why I said I felt that was essential that you do that.

HOCKADAY: And, uh, that was a decision that was made about--I won't, while I was here. Maybe in the real early month that I was here. Um--

LANE: Hmm. So, that was just part, part of, of getting those attitudes--


LANE: --in line, and raising the morale--

HOCKADAY: --yeah, without losing people hope to--

LANE: Right. Right.

HOCKADAY: Uh, of course, you know, faculty's not gonna walk out, because 00:47:00there's nowhere to go. And I knew that, but just because you know that, you don't--

LANE: Abuse it.

HOCKADAY: You can't be arrogant.

LANE: No, that's very true. I know, I know you need to get back to the, the conference. Um, I would, in summary, is there anything you would like to say for the record, for our ten year history?

HOCKADAY: Well, it's, it's--

LANE: You've said some very good things.

HOCKADAY: Well, it's a good ten years--

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: --when you grow from forty thousand to ninety-two thousand students, you're doing something right.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: Uh, certainly the organization of the system has been about perfect.

LANE: Right.

HOCKADAY: It was a great idea to make districts.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: Now, this was Governor Patton's idea.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: Nobody else's.

LANE: Oh, it was.

HOCKADAY: Totally his idea.

LANE: Districts.

HOCKADAY: Um, fifteen districts.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: It was his idea. Uh, he dropped that on me one morning at breakfast (Lane laughs). And I said, "Governor, uh, let's make it 00:48:00worth their while to do that." He said, "Well [knocking at door]--

LANE: How do you do that, huh?

HOCKADAY: Uh, do I need to answer it (??)?

LANE: Uh, Let me do that.

HOCKADAY: He, um--

LANE: We'll just see what they need. ----------(??)----------. [Female voice].

HOCKADAY: Um, and he said, "Okay." And then he said, uh, "Now if that does not work, you know, it's gotta be done." So--

LANE: Hmm.

HOCKADAY: --then we're getting on to about time that Mike is coming.

LANE: Um-hm. Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: This is supposed to be, like, November.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: And so the decision was to put a carrot out there strong enough, that was strong enough to make some districts merge. And two or three of them did. And I don't remember which ones were, but it was in process when I lived in a couple of places, because the people in 00:49:00the district had decided it would be a good idea.

LANE: Beca-, they had decided at the community level--

HOCKADAY: --and, and I said now, and you know, it's kind of like you, you said--I said, "Now you need to ask the board to let you do this."

LANE: Hmm.

HOCKADAY: And they did.

LANE: Hmm. That was, that was ingenious, I think.

HOCKADAY: Well, it didn't (??) work for everybody, 'cause he (??) finally got down to where he (??) had to do it.

LANE: Right, the last holdout.

HOCKADAY: Right. And then, of course, that was Mike's problem, but the, uh, but for the record it was tried, uh, the consolidation within the districts was tried on a basis of we will reward this sort of thing.

LANE: Um-hm. Um-hm. And that, and it, and as you say, in general, it worked.

HOCKADAY: And, it, but it won't work overnight. Because you see, you need to wait, if you, if you have say a technical college and you have a community college, and you want to make it one community and 00:50:00technical college district, it's always easier when one of these guys or gals retires.

LANE: Um-hm. ----------(??)--

HOCKADAY: And see, that happened in a couple places--

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: --so it's easier then--

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: --if the technical-college person is retiring just to put it together. See, that's what happened at Bluegrass.

LANE: Yes.

HOCKADAY: So Ron whatev-, whoever, uh, Ball, maybe--

LANE: Yes, yes, yes. Ball--

HOCKADAY: --retired--

LANE: Yeah.

HOCKADAY: --and that's the perfect time, so just put it together.

LANE: Put it together.

HOCKADAY: The, uh, now to make it work in Bluegrass, they have to have a new campus.

LANE: Um-hm. Oh, yeah.

HOCKADAY: Now if they had a new campus and put the technical college and LCC together, uh, in five years it would be all over with.

LANE: Hmm.

HOCKADAY: But as long as one's over here on the university campus, and 00:51:00one's way out there somewhere, it's too, it's us and them.

LANE: That surely is.

HOCKADAY: But now university people wanna get rid of the building.

LANE: That's what I hear.

HOCKADAY: Want us to get out of the buildings, and to make it work well, we need to be out of the buildings and together. Then if that happened here, this would be one superior--

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: --community college.

LANE: It would wouldn't it? It's strong physically (??).

HOCKADAY: Eventually, and don't you say I said this, but eventually the name will change and it will be--

LANE: Right.

HOCKADAY: --Bluegrass Community--

LANE: Oh, yeah.

HOCKADAY: --College District.

LANE: Oh, yeah.

HOCKADAY: That's just, that's just the osmosis of it.

LANE: They're, they're using it quite a bit now--the, at, in the system office I hear that, you know.

HOCKADAY: But, because community college means both transfer and technical--

LANE: Sure.

HOCKADAY: --education.

LANE: Sure.

HOCKADAY: You don't have to--

LANE: I see what you're saying.

HOCKADAY: You don't have to say--

LANE: Differentiate, do you?

HOCKADAY: You don't have to say both.

LANE: Right.


HOCKADAY: Just say community college, and that means both--

LANE: That's--

HOCKADAY: --all over the world.

LANE: Um-hm.

HOCKADAY: Except politically, right now, it's probably not the thing to do.

LANE: Yeah. No. It's gonna be fascinating ten years from now, isn't it? I'm anxious to see


LANE: --what they do.

HOCKADAY: Listen, if the next ten is as good as these ten, listen (??)--

LANE: --be fantastic (laughs).

HOCKADAY: --it'll be--thank you--

LANE: (laughs) Well, you're--

HOCKADAY: --Margaret, thank you. I've got to go.

LANE: It's, it's such, I know you do, and thank you so much.

HOCKADAY: Your--(??)--

LANE: --Let me give you my card.


LANE: In case you--

HOCKADAY: Call me if you need me.

LANE: I shall, I, I hope to see you again soon. When will you be back?


LANE: You coming back for, before the end of the year for anything?

HOCKADAY: Uh ----------(??)----------

LANE: I think they're gonna have a big celebration in next July. Throw 'em a tent (??).

HOCKADAY: And they probably -----------(??)----------.

LANE: Pitch a tent (??).

HOCKADAY: ----------(??)

LANE: Yeah.

HOCKADAY: ----------(??)

LANE: She, she had her little cart in front of that door. You might wanna use this one.


LANE: It was, it was blocked. Thanks again.


HOCKADAY: Thank you. Good to see you.

LANE: You too.

HOCKADAY: Good ideas, it's a good idea to do what you do.

LANE: Well, I'm, I'm delighted to be a part of it.

HOCKADAY: Well, if you would ----------(??) used to ----------(??)--

LANE: You're right. You're right. Thanks (??). Bye.

[End of interview.]