Interview with Ryan Dean Zimmerman, May 5, 2010

CAMERAMAN: All right, guys. We are rolling. Um, I've got a quick question that I have to go through for legal reasons.

ZIMMERMAN: Okay.

CAMERAMAN: Which is number one is can you say and spell your name for me.

ZIMMERMAN: Ryan Zimmerman, R-y-a-n Z-i-m-m-e-r-m-a-n.

CAMERAMAN: Okay. And, Ryan, uh, do you give us permission to use, uh, this interview, uh, as it's been described to you? Uh just--

ZIMMERMAN: Yes.

CAMERAMAN: --would you release that for us?

ZIMMERMAN: Yes.

CAMERAMAN: Okay, thank you.

GAYHEART: Okay. And I've spoke to you about why we're here tonight, and if you just want to start with your name, how old you are, and um, what you're currently doing at the University of Kentucky and what war you served in.

ZIMMERMAN: Okay. My name's Ryan Zimmerman. I'm twenty-nine years old. I am going to dental school here at UK. Um, and I was, uh, in Afghanistan, you know, Op--Operation Enduring Freedom.

GAYHEART: And what branch of service?

ZIMMERMAN: Army.

GAYHEART: So if you don't mind telling us, uh, where you grew up and--

ZIMMERMAN: Okay.

GAYHEART: --uh, what your childhood was like, siblings and parents and things of that nature.

ZIMMERMAN: I'm from a small town just right outside Lafayette in Indiana. Um, you know, just probably pretty average, middle-class family. My mom's a schoolteacher. My dad's a wildlife biologist and he works for the state's Department of Natural Resources. I have a sister who's two years younger than me. I have a brother who's about three and a half years younger than, than I am. Um, you know, Lafayette's--I don't know--relatively, I guess, average-sized town; you know, certainly not a big city but is--it's not tiny. Um, and my, my parents were both, uh, you know, hard workers. They, you know, you know, disciplined me and my brother and sister and I, you know, pretty well. And um, you 00:02:00know, my brother has stayed in the Lafayette area. He is uh, an Ag sys--systems guy. He got his degree from Purdue, uh, and, you know, works there, you know, near home, and then my sister's in the Army as well. She, um, is an adjutant general officer. Uh, I guess she's a captain now, and then, um, she's actually currently in Kuwait. So--

GAYHEART: And what was your ex--ex--exposure to the military in Lafayette?

ZIMMERMAN: Very, very little. You know, the--the nearest military base that, you know, at least hasn't been shut down is probably, you know, down here in Kentucky, Fort Knox or Fort Campbell. Um, there may be a couple of smaller Air Force bases up there. Uh, both my grandfathers, uh, grew up on farms during World War II. They had farms deferments, so they didn't, you know, they did not serve overseas in World War II. 00:03:00Um, and, you know, my dad had a high draft number in Vietnam. You know, my parents' siblings were, you know, just, you know, too young for Vietnam, so there's no military, you know, in my family at all.

GAYHEART: So you were the first generation?

ZIMMERMAN: Yeah. You know, I'm sure there is, you know, a dad's uncle somewhere, you know, but, you know, as far as, you know, in my immediate family, you know, yeah.

GAYHEART: And in growing up and going through school, um, what were you interested in? What did you do?

ZIMMERMAN: You know, I really--really enjoyed the outdoors, uh, really enjoyed, uh, fishing. My dad's a wildlife biologist like I said so he likes the outdoors. He likes to hunt and fish. Um, enjoyed sports. You know, my brother, sister and I, we always played, you know, baseball, softball or, you know, football or basketball. Um, oh, you know, we, you know, just play--we played outside a lot w--when we were 00:04:00young. My parents probably had about ten acres of land; eight of it was probably woods and so, you know, we ran around the woods a lot, built forts, played in the creek. Uh, you know, in school, you know, I really enjoyed, like, the science side of things, really--really enjoyed history. Was never really a big fan of, like, you know, reading, lit., anything like that, so--not usually a big art fan when I was, you know, younger. So.

GAYHEART: And when did you first decide that you wanted to choose the military as a career or as a path?

ZIMMERMAN: Well, I--it's--guess it's kind of hard for me to pinpoint maybe when I first decided. You know, like--like I said, I really always enjoyed history. My mom was a big reader and so she always took us to the library when we were younger, and while, uh, you know, just for some reason I just really enjoyed reading military history while 00:05:00I was younger. I--you know, I don't know why. Uh, and, you know, I--I always, you know, enjoyed that history and everything, but, you know, I always did well in school. I always wanted to go to college, um, then--I don't know--maybe when I was in middle school at some point, you know, someone said, you know, "Hey, have you ever thought of going to one of the military academies?" Um, and you know, at that time I didn't--didn't know what they were, and, you know, just once it was explained to me I, you know, kind of just understood that, you know, you're in the--you're in the military and--but you're going to college while you're there and when you're done with college, you know, you owe the Army, Navy or Air Force some, some time. Um, and so, you know, I just started to consider that. I felt that--growing up Purdue University is right there in Lafayette, and so, you know, it's--it's a good school but being right there it didn't really kind of have the 00:06:00luster, I guess. You know, it didn't--and so it just kind of felt like I wanted to be out of Indiana and, and you know, I just needed to, you know, go--go somewhere else. So I didn't really, uh, you know, know what I was getting myself into, but you know, I--I ended up going to West Point and that's kind of what drove me to the military I guess.

GAYHEART: And what was your, what was your parents' reaction when--

ZIMMERMAN: Um, I never had any negative reaction from them. I think, uh, you know, that they were proud of me, you know, for--for getting into West Point, and you know they--they supported my decision to do that. Um, but, you know, no--no--nothing negative; nothing--I didn't feel like I was pushed to go there either. You know, when--once they found out that maybe I was interested in going there and had gone out there and seen the place and gone through what was kind of an extensive, like, nomination process, you know, they never really kind of drove me to--to do that once they found out that I was moving that 00:07:00way. You know, they always left it open and kind of left it up to me.

GAYHEART: And what about your peers? You know, some of your friends who might have been going to Purdue, and some of them who might have been going to college out of state and you were going off to a military college. How was that, did you find any conflicts or differences between yourself upon choosing West Point and not choosing Purdue?

ZIMMERMAN: No, no--not, you know, not really. I mean, a--a lot of my classmates from high school stayed in state. You know, maybe of the--I don't even--I can't even remember how big my high school class was. It was probably two hundred, two-fifty--but, you know, I'd say ninety percent of them that went to college stayed in state, so--if not more than that. Um, and, you know, I mean, you know, the circle of friends I had, you know, they all thought it was neat, you know, thought it was cool that I was going off to--to West Point, and, you know, I didn't really, other than that, didn't, you know, catch any flak from, or any 00:08:00harassment or anything like that. So--

GAYHEART: So take me through your first day at West Point, your reaction.

ZIMMERMAN: Well, you know, kind of like I said I didn't--I didn't-- wasn't a hundred percent sure what I was getting into. You know, I honestly didn't know what an officer in the military was at all, um, or really I guess fully understand that. Um, you know, you show up and you just have to report by a certain time, and they take you to--to the football stadium and once you get inside, I don't know. They bring you in blocks of, like, fifty. I don't--I don't remember. And, you know, you're sitting there, and uh, my mom and dad, brother, sister and my girlfriend were, were both--were all there. And, uh, they give kind of this standard speech, you know, about how this is what you're going to be, you know, this is what you can look forward to, I guess, or, uh, what have you for the next four years. You should all be proud 00:09:00you're here, and then they were like, you know, you have sixty seconds to say, you know, goodbye. Um, and so, you know, I remember hugging everybody, and I remember my dad tearing up a little bit. Um, and then they, you know, they march you across the football field, you go under the bleachers and, you know, it goes from there. It's just a whirlwind day of getting uniforms and everything issued to you and signing things and taking an oath and, you know, just learning how to march, and by that night you march in a, I guess parade if you will, uh so, you know, your parents can see; obviously get your hair cut, learn how to put your uniform on, meet your squad leader and, you know, just all sorts of stuff like that. So it's a, it's a pretty intense day, but--

GAYHEART: So what was the first year like?

ZIMMERMAN: Um, you know, it was, it was certainly difficult. Um, I 00:10:00guess, you know, you're in a company of about 120 other cadets probably evenly spaced or evenly distributed throughout the--the different classes, so I probably had, you know, about twenty-eight to thirty freshmen in my company. Um, and, you know, you just have all these additional duties to do and, you know, in addition to going to class, so, you know, you go to class from--I don't know--eight to three or four, and then you either have to play an intramural or you're practicing parades or drill or just kind of things like that and then you go to dinner and then, you know, you're studying at night or doing- -doing your, the duties that you have; um, just kind of goofy stuff like delivering laundry to the upperclassmen, things like that. So, you know, there's always pressure put on you by the upperclassmen to, you know, learn this history or knowledge of, of West Point, and um, so you 00:11:00know, you get really tight with those freshmen that are--those other plebes, I guess, that are there and in your company with you. And, you know, after your first year you move to another company, but you're always really close with those, with those guys from your first year. And, you know, I still talk to--to some, you know, several of the guys that were, that, uh, you know, I was with my first year and then I graduated with, but, you know, there's kind of a bonding experience. And, um yeah, you know, I just remember being tired a lot, and that's about it.

GAYHEART: Had you ever experienced structure and discipline like that before?

ZIMMERMAN: Yeah. You know, I guess maybe a little bit through, like, sports growing up, but just to--I wouldn't say--certainly nothing like that, nothing like, like the military or West Point--but, you know, just team sports and, and, you know, group activities. You know, I had a little bit of it before, but--

GAYHEART: Was there, was there any moment that you wanted to go home?

ZIMMERMAN: There was one. Uh, it was during the kind of the little basic training they do that first summer, and we were doing a road march. I don't know. I forget how long it was supposed to be, but, you know, somebody got lost and it ended up being longer than it was supposed to be. And, you know, we're just walking and, you know, and everyone's tired. You're--I was just sucking, and I was thinking, you know, hey, I mean, if we're not back to, you know, where we need to be in the next, you know, ten minutes, you know, I'm done with this, or whatever. And one of my buddies that ended up in my company with me my freshman year but was in a different--he was in my platoon but a different squad--you know, he just kind of kept encouraging me and kind 00:13:00of talked me through it. I don't--I don't remember how long it ended up taking, but you know, that--I guess that was probably the closest I came was just that road march. For some reason it just wore me down.

GAYHEART: Did that build more stamina for the next time you felt worn down?

ZIMMERMAN: I think so, yeah. Um, you know, I--I don't remember ever kind of having that thinking like that again or--or thinking, You know, I want out of here, li--like I did, you know, that day, and so.

GAYHEART: So when did you get to go home?

ZIMMERMAN: Oh, Thanksgiving, Christmas. You know, it was a pretty typical college schedule in that, you know, I had spri--I had a spring break, you know, in the spring. I had a few of the federal holidays, like, in the fall, like three-day weekends. But I didn't really go home any of those. You had to--but, you know, Thanksgiving, Christmas, spring break that first year and then you probably get, like, three or four weeks off in the summer before you have to come back for some more training in the summer. So--

GAYHEART: So were there any restrictions when you took those, those days off? Was there anything that you had to abide by while at home or--

ZIMMERMAN: No. Not really. You know, I think, just hearing through the 00:14:00grapevine, I think some of that stuff has changed now. You know, they think that--I could just put on civilian clothes and--and get on the bus to the airport and leave, but I think now, you know, they make them leave kind of in a uniform or maybe not a traditional uniform like you think but maybe they've got to have, like, a khaki and a certain polo on or something like that when they leave. So, but yeah, there--there was--there was no real restrictions. As you progressed, you got passes or you could leave at night, and, you know, you just had to be back by a certain time or just things like that. You had to be, you know, signed back in by seventeen hundred on Sunday or, you know, if you were just leaving for the night you had to be back before taps. Things like that.

GAYHEART: So what were you studying while at West Point?

ZIMMERMAN: Uh, I don't think you had to pick a major until, I don't know, your second or third year, but I--you know I had al--always loved science, uh, and just decided to major in chemis--well, they 00:15:00had a degree called chemistry and life sciences. Uh, I probably had about forty other classmates in that major. West Point allows about two percent of its class to go to medical school and so that's kind of their pre-med program, and when I started there I really had no desire or intention to, you know, of going to medical school or anything like that. So--

GAYHEART: And at what point did you pursue that?

ZIMMERMAN: Well, I nev--like I said, I never really thought about it but being with those guys in class all the time, you know, those, all those guys that are--are kind of focused that way you know, you start to think about it, and you know. I mean, like, hey, everybody else is doing this. Why, you know, why am I in this group? And, why am I majoring in this and not looking, uh, looking in that direction? And so, you know, I started looking at it a little bit, and you--you have to apply for one of these slots. You have to apply to medical schools, and I started to do that and then--I don't know, I--it kind of woke 00:16:00me up a little bit. I just realized you know maybe this--you know, I think I'm just kind of following the crowd here. I'm not sure I want to do this, and so, you know, I started thinking, did I really come to West Point to go straight to medical school? You--it incurred a pretty serious obligation. You know, if you went to civilian school it was four more years. If you went to the military school, it was seven more years on top of the five you already owed for West Point. So I was looking at nine to twelve years in the Army and so just decided that time wasn't really what I wanted to do. And so--

GAYHEART: That's a pretty long time commitment before you even get into it.

ZIMMERMAN: It is. It is a very long commitment. So.

GAYHEART: So take me through what it was like to be a fourth-year student-cadet and what it was like compared to being a first year. Were you more regimented, more disciplined?

ZIMMERMAN: Oh, no. Without a doubt you were more relaxed. Um, yeah, you had, you know, you had more privileges to go off post. You coul--you had, starting spring break your junior year you could have a car there. You couldn't have a car before that so you could 00:17:00leave, and you know, go places on the weekends without having to pay a taxi or borrowing somebody's car. You were allowed to have, like, a refrigerator in your room; just, you know, things like that. And so it was just much more laid back. A lot of the instructors, a lot of the officers and NCOs there, you know, you got a--a little more respect from them. I mean, they--they respected all the cadets, but you just, you know, just because you were in that position getting ready to graduate and go out and--and be a lieutenant in the Army, you know, you--they--but you know you also had more responsibility being a fourth year because it was structured like the military. You know, the fourth year students were the officers that were running, you know, the companies and the battalions there, and so you know, you certainly--

GAYHEART: Give me an example of a officer leadership position at West Point your fourth year?

ZIMMERMAN: You know, just the company commander, one of the platoon leaders or, you know, one of the brigade or, you know, battalion 00:18:00staff's officers. I mean they had S1, you know, 2, 3, 4 they had athletic officers and things like that. So--

GAYHEART: What did you do?

ZIMMERMAN: Um, I was the regimental XO second semester. First semester I was maybe like the company training officer or something like that. I was just responsible for turning the training schedules, and, you know, second semester I was the reg-XO and, you know, just kind of managed the staff a little bit. So--

GAYHEART: Do you feel that you excelled at West Point as compared to--

ZIMMERMAN: I wouldn't--

GAYHEART: --your peers?

ZIMMERMAN: I wouldn't say excelled. I did well. You know, I bet, you know, if you want to look at numbers I bet, I bet I graduated in the top twenty percent of my class, let's say. You know, I--but I, I did very well in high school and, you know, when I got to West Point, you know, they're pooling all these pretty good students from high school, and so I kind of found myself in an environment where, you know, I 00:19:00used to do--be, you know, one of the--maybe one of the top guys in high school and all of a sudden, you know, you're in the mix with all these other guys in there and--guys and girls. And so I, uh, you know, my first year I guess with maybe some of the stresses my first year I still did well but, you know, certainly didn't excel, and once I got into my second year I started doing a lot better, you know, with my classes. And your GPA, there's actually part of you--part classes, part a physical grade and part your military grade, and so, you know, I just started doing, you know, better there. But like I said, I wouldn't say I excelled. I wasn't one of those guys that, you know, had straight A's or had really anything like that there.

GAYHEART: Well, did you--when you went home on leave--

ZIMMERMAN: Um-hm.

GAYHEART: --did you, when you came home and your peers from high school were home on break for--

ZIMMERMAN: Right.

GAYHEART: --spring break when you came home did you no--notice any clear differences between yourself and a sophomore at Purdue?

ZIMMERMAN: Yeah. You know, there were some. I mean, just--I don't, 00:20:00I'm trying to think how to, s--you know, describe it but--you know I mean, it's not a typical college experience. It's--I kind of compared West Point to still being in high school. You know, I had one hour classes, you know, seven hour blocks a day. I switched classes, and, you know, they fed me breakfast, lunch and dinner. I didn't have to worry about that. You know, they do your laundry for you, you know, just like, just like my mom did my laundry in high school. So, you know, I did--I mean, I lived in the barracks so, you know, a lot of the just getting out and you know, having your own place and, you know, kind of fending for yourself that went with college, you know, I didn't really experience that, and so, you know, they kind of had those experiences. You know, they--you know they were always going out, having a good time on the weekends where, you know, my first and second year, you know, we usually had stuff going on Saturdays and, you know, Sunday we would just study and, you know, start the week over. It's not like we were leaving, leaving post to go do anything. So, uh, you 00:21:00know, I guess those were kind of some of the big differences, but, you know, personality-wise, I guess, you know, I didn't really notice any conflicts or anything like that; any differences like that between, you know, the--the friends from high school that I still talk to and--and, you know, myself. So--

GAYHEART: Well, what's one thing that you remember and that you took away from your experience at West Point?

ZIMMERMAN: One thing, huh?

GAYHEART: Or it--it could be several.

ZIMMERMAN: Well, just, you know, I guess--started to kind of realize the camaraderie that's in the military a little bit and realized how important that is and realized that it kind of started--I mean, I don't think I really fully appreciated the responsibility I'd have as 00:22:00an officer but--you kind of started to see that it was pretty serious. You know, I was there when 9/11 happened so when I came into West Point, there were really no conflicts of any sort going on, and when I was leaving, you know, global war on terrorism was going on. And so, you know, my junior year when that happened, or--that kind of really made it, you know, I--I guess maybe a little more serious all of a sudden. But, you know, just I guess, like, the big lesson, I--you know that I just remembered and took out of there, I took out that you needed to listen to, you know, those guys that just had more experience than you out there, you know. You're going to walk out there and you're going to have rank on your collar, and there's going to be guys calling you "Sir" and "Ma'am" and saluting you. And, you know, you've been in the Army, out in the real Army for two days, and there's guys out there that are saluting you that have been in the Army for twenty years; you know, NCOs. And, you know, just because, just because 00:23:00you're a lieutenant doesn't mean, you know, you have the experience or know what's going on. So--

GAYHEART: Well, what was, what was the feeling that you had once they pinned on that gold bar and you knew that you just received, um, uh-- probably the most responsibility that you had ever had?

ZIMMERMAN: Um, you know, I mean, really when, when I got commissioned, you know, it was more of a feeling of just having completed, you know, West Point, and, you know, the--the responsibility feeling really didn't come to me until I was kind of in the officer basic course a few--a couple months later. Uh, and, uh, you know, that's when, you know, I was actually on a real military post. I started seeing all 00:24:00the soldiers--around all the NCOs where all the instructors, they were telling, you know, the kind of things you would have to, that, you know, you would be doing once you got to your unit. And, uh, and then while I was in OBC is when my unit S1, a personnel officer, you know, from the unit I was go--eventually going to, called me and said, "Hey, we're deploying." And so, you know, then it really hit like, you know, a bomb shell right then. You're like, you know--I mean, you know, here we go. So.

GAYHEART: What hit you?

ZIMMERMAN: Um, I guess, you know, I was--I mean I took everything I was doing at West Point and everything I was doing in the basic, officer basic course seriously, but, you know, it was still kind of--I was still with my buddies from when I was in West Point in college. You know I was still with my friends there. Some of them were still in the officer basic course with me so, you know, we were still kind of having 00:25:00fun and--and, you know, goofing around and just, you know, kind of like, I guess, a last hurrah before we were going off and separating to our, to our units, uh, throughout the Army. And so, you know, I still really didn't think--I was going to a unit in uh, Anchorage, Alaska; Fort Richardson. Uh, I was--I was excited about going to Alaska. It was a--was a place I really wanted to go, but, you know, it was a very small unit up there. Kind of in the back of my mind I'm thinking, there's no way this unit's deploying anywhere, and, uh, so, you know, I was pretty carefree until I fo--found out that we were actually deploying and then, you know, it just was like, you know, o--oh, you know, this--this is for real now, and--and, you know, I'm going to have forty guys in my platoon here, you know, shortly that you--I'm going to be responsible for, you know, for them, you know, in the combat zone. So--

GAYHEART: How did you find out that you were going?

ZIMMERMAN: (laughs) My--I guess I incorrectly kind of portrayed--I was, I got married right when I graduated from West Point, so my wife still had some time to finish up at Purdue. But she came down over the summer to Fort Sam Houston in Texas with me for the officer basic course, and so she was, she would just hang out in my room while I was at class. And the personnel officer called my room and she answered the phone, and, you know, they're looking for me and it's very important that I call up there. And so I got home from work that night and, and called, and, uh, you know, uh, you know, she was in the room with me and, you know, so she was kind of freaking out because I guess I kind of falsely led her to believe that, you know--not that I went to Alaska because I didn't think that unit would deploy, but, you know, I'd kind of reassured her, you know 'cause, of course, wi--with everything that was going on in Afghanistan and everything, you know, she was nervous about me being in the military. And I was like, "Well, you know, we're going to Alaska. We're going to be out of the way. You know, it's a--it's a single, standalone infantry battalion up 00:27:00there. You know, they're not sending a standalone battalion anywhere. They're going to, you know, take brigades out of, you know, these big divisions like 101st and 10th Mountain and 25th and send them places." And so, you know, she was kind of like, "I don't understand." You know, she didn't really understand why I was deploying. She was like, "I thought you told me, you know, this was a small unit. They weren't going anywhere." And, um, I don't know. I guess I just kind of, you know, I really don't remember much about how I kind of felt at that time. It was just, you know--you know, I was in the military; that was my job. I guess that was what I was going to do. So--

GAYHEART: How did you explain it to her?

ZIMMERMAN: (sighs) I--I really don't remember too much about how I explained it to her. I just, you know, remember her kind of not understanding, but, you know, I was just like, "Hey, you know, we--we knew from the get-go. I mean, even if we were going to Alaska this was certainly a possibility at some point that I was going to be deployed down the road." And at that time it was going to be a six-month 00:28:00deployment. You know, I was just kind of stressing that it could, you know, it could be a lot worse than--than it is, and, uh, you know, it wasn't going to matter becau--for the most part she was gonna still be in Indiana. She was going to be going to Purdue to finish up her degree. Her family was all right there. She was going to have her family. It's not like she was going to move to Alaska and then I was going to walk away or I was going to leave and leave her, you know, by herself in a house in Alaska. So, you know, I just kind of tried to reassure her that her family was going to be close by and--

GAYHEART: Well, did you call your parents and, and tell them?

ZIMMERMAN: I did. I don't remember much about it, uh, so I think, I know I remember my, certainly my mo--my mom was more--I won't--I don't want to say distressed or--or--because I don't remember her reaction really, but I'm sure--I guess she was just probably maybe a little more worried. I just got that feeling from her. So--

GAYHEART: Let's go back to West Point--

ZIMMERMAN: Okay.

GAYHEART: --when you were there during 9/11.

ZIMMERMAN: Okay.

GAYHEART: What was your reaction, the cadets' reaction when you all saw that? Was it immediate, "I want to get out, and I want to go to war," or was it, "Oh, blank. What have I--what am I getting myself into? Or what--what's the future hold for me as a consequence of?"

ZIMMERMAN: I don't think there was too many people that were questioning why they were there and--and what the future may hold. The day you step into class your junior year you're committed to the military. Anytime before that, those first two years, you can walk away with two free years' education, no strings attached. If you want to walk away after that first two years, you know, they're going to put you in the military as an enlisted--as, as a--they put you in as a specialist or an E4, and you know, you're going to do your two years that, you, that you know, that you did at West Point. You're going to pay that back, 00:30:00um, once you walk into class your junior year. So--

GAYHEART: Did you know anybody like that?

ZIMMERMAN: You know I did. Um, this is kind of an interesting story. My mom's dad was originally from eastern Pennsylvania, and so a lot of his family, his brothers and sisters were on the east coast; Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York area. And, uh, so my mom had a lot of cousins out there, and she talked to one, I guess on a--I don't know--a couple times a year, maybe--I--I don't know how often. And, uh, so she's talking to one of them and telling them that, "Hey, we're going to be out in New York," because they're taking me to West Point, and they're like, "Oh, you know, so and so's son is starting to--is going to West Point this fall, too--or this summer, too." And so, you know, one of my mom's cousins' kids or something was--was going to West Point, and, um, he--I--I, you know, I remember that he left before our junior year and, you know, went on and finished school elsewhere 00:31:00and, um, got a, you know, got a degree and became a teacher. And then there was a kid from Indiana that I had met at some event--I don't remember what it was. Something in Indiana was going on, and I--I met him--and we both end up in the same battalion at West Point. And I was like, "Hey," you know, "I know you." And, uh, I remember that he left, you know, after two years and you know, went on and got his degree elsewhere. But um, but anyway, you know, back to--

GAYHEART: Well, I was going to ask. What, how are the specialists treated in, in the military? Like, if you are a West Point dropout--

ZIMMERMAN: Um-hm.

GAYHEART: --and you go to the Army and you're a specialist--

ZIMMERMAN: Okay.

GAYHEART: --how are those--how are those soldiers treated once they get there? Is it--is it kind of a, uh, you couldn't cut the mustard or, you know, you--you're kind of a weak soldier or--

ZIMMERMAN: I don't know about that. You know, I don't know--I know, 00:32:00I guess I had maybe had firsthand experience with one of those situations. A classmate of mine for some, like, discipline issues was, you know, kicked out; I guess it was my senior year--you know, my first year. And, uh, I don't know where he went because I don't know if he was in limbo while they were deciding what to do or I guess they probably sent him to basic training and AIT, the, you know, the advanced training and--'cause after we got back from Afghanistan he showed up in the--in my unit up in Alaska, uh, you know, as a--as a specialist, as an E4. And uh, I don't really remember--I had a couple maybe of the officers in the unit ask me what I knew about him, but I don't remember any of the, you know, I don't really remember him taking any extra, you know, flak or you know, getting harassed or anything, just because--and I didn't go out there broadcasting that I knew the guy and that he had, you know, gotten kicked out of West Point. And you know, I don't, I don't think he was broadcasting it either, so, you 00:33:00know, maybe his commander and platoon leader knew but, you know, un-- unless somebody was talking about it. So, you know, I didn't really see any, any ill effect or any, you know, f--ill feelings towards him.

GAYHEART: Okay. So the, the feelings of the cadets and--and your personal feelings, uh, towards the attacks while at West Point.

ZIMMERMAN: I remember sitting, I was in--I had gone to a chemistry class. I don't remember hearing that it had happened in the class prior or maybe I had the period off or something and walked in--and it was a small class. There was maybe eight, ten people in it--and we, the inst--there was a TV in every room. The instructor had it up on the TV and, you know, we're just watching it, and after about ten or fifteen minutes--and it was actually a civilian instructor, and usually most of the instructors there were military officers--um, but he was like, "Yeah, you know, I--you know, this event's, you know, kind of--is--is pretty serious and you know I don't think we're going to really have class today. You know, you guys can go back to your room if you want. You can sit here and watch it on uh, TV for the rest 00:34:00of the hour; whatever you want." And so, you know, I remember sitting there for a while and watching it, and I guess initially I didn't really think of the ramifications for--for me necessarily, uh, because I--and I--that's probably just because maybe the media didn't straight up come out and say initially, "Hey this--this was a terrorist attack. Blah, blah, blah." So--but once that kind of started coming out, you know, a lot of the cadets wanted to go down to New York City, and we were barred from leaving. We--they took away all our passes for two or three weeks. We weren't allowed to leave, and, you know, everybody was upset. They wanted to go down and, and help and--and you know, do whatever they could, and I remember they did, like, a, they decided the firefighters or whoever was working down there needed socks and so, you know, everyone was donating, you know, sock--extra socks that hadn't--but, you know, so like I said, they wouldn't let us leave but a lot of--a lot of people wanted to go down there, and a lot of people were pretty--were pretty fired up about it, you know. I didn't hear any, anyone that was like, you know, hey, I'm not--I didn't hear anyone 00:35:00second guessing, you know, what they were doing there, and, you know, I think it just kind of reaffirmed for everybody why--why they were there.

GAYHEART: Did it motivate you even more to be--because I know it united the country.

ZIMMERMAN: Right.

GAYHEART: Did it, did it support your decision as--to go towards, you know, to go into the military to defend this country?

ZIMMERMAN: Yeah. I think so, um, you know, especially probably once we actually, you know, sent soldiers over, over to Afghanistan. You know, then it--it, it did, you know, because up until then, you know, you kind of wondered if we were going to or you know if they would just, you didn't know what they were going to do; if they were just going to shoot cruise missiles at them or what. But once they actually put guys on the ground over there, you know, then it really, you know, kind of reinforced and, and, you know, for me personally, you know, why I was there and what I was doing. So--

GAYHEART: All right. Well, we'll take a fifteen-minute break--

ZIMMERMAN: Okay.

GAYHEART: --and we'll talk about your time in Alaska and then do--do 00:36:00combat after that.

ZIMMERMAN: Okay. Good deal.

[Pause in recording.]

GAYHEART: --We'll talk about it

ZIMMERMAN: Yeah, cool.

ZIMMERMAN: Do I need to adjust this at all? Is this?

[Pause in recording.]

GAYHEART: Is his level good? (Microphone interference)

ZIMMERMAN: Sorry. I wasn't too--paying too much attention when you put that on.

GAYHEART: Did you have class all day today?

ZIMMERMAN: I really don't have class anymore. I just see patients, and I'm on my oral surgery rotation right now so it's pretty laid back.

GAYHEART: Yeah.

ZIMMERMAN: People walk in, you know, if they've got a tooth that can't be saved we take it out. (laughs)

GAYHEART: Exactly. (Zimmerman laughs) Sounds like military dentists.

ZIMMERMAN: Yeah.

GAYHEART: Uh, okay. Well, where we left off you were in Alaska--

ZIMMERMAN: Okay.

GAYHEART: --and you had just found out that you were getting deployed. And, um, explain to me, uh, where your unit was going and what your 00:37:00unit was responsible for and what you were responsible for.

ZIMMERMAN: Well, I, uh, got to Alaska maybe at the beginning of October of 2003. Uh, my unit was the 501st Parachute Infantry Regiment. It was a standalone, airborne infantry battalion in Anchorage at Fort Richardson. Um, I initially was going to drive up, but--while I was at OBC, but since I found out they were deploying the personnel office said, "No. You don't have time to drive or take your leave en route. You need to fly up here." And so I drove my truck home from San Antonio, left it in Indiana and then flew up to Alaska. Um, you know, I was going to be the medical platoon leader, um, which is--is kind of an interesting job. It's one of the special platoons in the headquarters company with the scouts, the support platoon, the mortars. Um, it, uh, the med platoon leader--you know, you have your 00:38:00platoon leader responsibilities and you're in charge of all these medics, but you have no medical training. You know, you're the--you know, it's your job to coordinate and track evacuations and know how to properly, you know, place the medical assets so that everything's covered appropriately, you know, so you don't have a unit that's out there without proper medical coverage, uh, I guess. And so there's that aspect. So, you know, I was responsible for making sure they were trained and, and things like that, but then I also kind of had a staff job on the battalion staff where when the battalion staff was planning operations I was in there and, you know, like I said was just kind of coordinating the medical coverage, if you will, for--for the operations and, and, you know, what the evac routes and plans where and where the physician--the PA and all the medical assets were going to be. And so, you know--I had a rough idea of what I was going to be doing, uh, 00:39:00just from what I had learned in the officer basic course and, you know, showed up to--to my unit in Alaska and--

GAYHEART: Did you go to any, uh, formal occupation training?

ZIMMERMAN: Um, just the officer basic course. That--it was--the Army Med Department is--is there in San Antonio, and so my, my officer basic course or--the Army Medical Department's officer basic course is actually pretty short. It's only about nine weeks, um, and then they have two weeks at the end for people that were kind of in my part, my sp--I mean, the Army Medical Department is huge. It's like dentists, doctors, vets, psychiatrists and then there's, you know, that, the admin, uh, seventy-bravo guys like me, and--and that's what--you know, so there was two weeks at the end that were kind of geared towards that and kind of intense. But, um, you know, that was--that--so I did have that before I went up there.

GAYHEART: So what were you thinking that your duties would be in Afghanistan?

ZIMMERMAN: You know, just pretty much what I, what I learned and, uh, 00:40:00you know I cou--what they were teaching in the officer basic course at the time--and I'm--I'm sure they've adjusted--was, you know, they were still kind of focused on this front--there's a frontline and, you know, casualties come back to the battalion aid station in an ambulance. They go from there back to the combat support hospital, and, you know, there's these routes that everything follows and things like that. But you know, there was a front--you know, there was a frontline and things like that and so, you know, I had the basics down, but--you know, the kind of, basic concepts of evacuation and treatment and things like that--but, uh, I had just kind of figured, uh, you know, it would just kind of be what they talked about in the officer basic course, uh, as far as what it would be like in Afghanistan. But, uh, once I got to Afghanistan, you know, there's no frontline. Everybody's operating out of forward operating bases, and, you know, there's big combat support hospitals but they're hundreds of miles away and the--and the--at the 00:41:00big bases and there's forward surgical teams everywhere. And so, you know, it was a whole new ballgame once I got over there and kind of figured out, you know, how casualties fl--would flow and things like that and you know, who was responsible for what kind of care and things like that. So.

GAYHEART: And what did you know about Afghanistan before you went there?

ZIMMERMAN: Very little, um, as far as, you know, the country itself. Uh, once I found out I was going to Afghanistan, I called a couple of my buddies and told them, and one of them had gotten a little, like, handbook about the country that he sent me in the mail. He was an infan--is--is an infantry officer. He's still in the military, and he had gotten it in his officer basic course and sent it to me. And so I had gone through that. And you know, it gave a little, you know, a little brief history maybe and talked about, you know, a lot of cultural stuff in there and things like that, but as far as, like, the operations that were going on over there you know I didn't know a whole--whole lot because I basically missed from the day the unit found 00:42:00out they were deploying, you know, I missed all the unit's buildup because I was still in training. You know, and so when I showed up to Alaska they were getting ready to leave in, like, two weeks, and, um, so, you know, I missed a lot of that, all the training classes and things like that for building up. I mean, you know, I was--I had just turned twenty-three. I mean, I was--when I first got to Alaska, you know I was obviously a second lieutenant. There might have been a couple other senior, senior first lieutenants, but by the time we got to Afghanistan they had all been promoted to captain. So there was a while in that battalion I was the only lieutenant, and, you know, so I was about as cherry as they come. So--

GAYHEART: What--what was the feeling like?

ZIMMERMAN: It was pretty intimidating for sure, uh, you know. I--all these guys had come to--all these young captains and senior lieutenants had come to this unit in Alaska together and all grown up there and then, you know, this outside--you know, brand-new lieutenant shows up from the officer basic course. I had never done any training with 00:43:00them. You know, I didn't go to any pre-deployment, you know, exercises or anything, and so there was a couple of guys that maybe knew I went to West Point and they had been West Point grads and so they were kind of friendly to me. But I really didn't have even time to meet or really get to know anyone before they, be--you know, before we went to Afghanistan. They actually left me back in Alaska for two weeks to get all my stuff settled while they flew to, uh, Bagram and got things set up, and so, uh, you know, I didn't meet anyone. You know I didn't know anyone's name hardly, and it was kinda--it was very intimidating.

GAYHEART: Prior to going over or just kind of word of mouth, had you known anybody or known of anybody that had been killed or hurt--

ZIMMERMAN: Um--

GAYHEART: --over in Afghanistan?

ZIMMERMAN: Tootootootootoo--no. Not, not before I went over there. I 00:44:00did--I did not know. You know, I didn't have anyone that had graduated ahead of me or didn't know anyone or hadn't really. You know--you know, there had been, obviously, been casualties up until that point, but you know I--

GAYHEART: You kind of went in there with--with kind of a clear mind.

ZIMMERMAN: Um-hm

GAYHEART: without doing the workup?

ZIMMERMAN: Right.

GAYHEART: Really the only cultural training that you had was from a handbook that some guy got in OCS?

ZIMMERMAN: Yeah. Pretty much.

GAYHEART: And you hadn't built a rapport with your--

ZIMMERMAN: No, not at all. Not at all.

GAYHEART: --your unit. So you're in Afghanistan and--and where did, what F--FOB did you go to? Do you remember?

ZIMMERMAN: It was called Forward Operating Base Salerno, and it's in, near a town called Khowst. It's on the--it's in a province, I don't know, that's right on the Pakistan border. I mean, our FOB was probably fifteen to seventeen kilometers from the border. Um, it was about a--it took us two days to drive there from Bagram. At the time, our battalion commander had decided that it was best to travel 00:45:00at night, and so I--I told you I had stayed be--had stayed behind for two weeks, though. So I flew into Afghanistan, and you know I had just been on a however many hour flight it takes you to get from Anchorage to Germany to Bagram. And I get off the plane, and uh, my platoon sergeant wasn't even there. He had gone ahead to the forward operating base to set things up, so one of the troop squad leaders grabs me and is like, "Hey," you know, "We're leaving tonight and driving to," you know, "Ground assault convoy and we're driving down to Salerno." I was like, "Okay." And, uh, so, you know, I went and drew all my ammunition. I went and sat in a couple meetings with the, uh, the staff, and, you know, I mean, I didn't know any of the planning that had gone on. You know, my treatment squad leader is like, you know, "You're going to be sitting here in the Humvee, and, uh, you know, I'm driving. And," you know, "Go get some sleep because we're leaving at--" you know, "When it gets dark." So I, uh, am, you know, I had slept most of the plane 00:46:00ride over there so, you know, at the time I'm wide awake and, you know, certainly, you know, nervous just because I hadn't been there for any of the planning for this convoy down to Salerno, and, um, you know, I didn't even know all my guys, all the soldiers in my platoon. I didn't even know all their names. You know I hadn't even met all of them before, and so, you know, I was wide awake. And I remember, you know, we're rolling out of Bagram right away, and, you know, someone has an AD with a SAW and, you know, a burst of, you know, small arms fire goes off. And, uh, so it was interesting.

GAYHEART: What were you thinking at that point?

ZIMMERMAN: Um, you know, at that point my journal was going pretty good and, you know, I was pretty--pretty alert and, uh, you know, just trying to remember everything that this treatment squad leader had told me, you know, what Sergeant Rick had told me, you know, before I got 00:47:00in the, in the car or in the Humvee with him and, you know, just going, making sure I had all my stuff straight, and it was pretty warm when I got there and so I just had, you know, my desert cam was on and I maybe had a long sleeved, like, under armor type shirt underneath that. And we started rolling out of Bagram, and get going and it's freezing cold, and all my snivel gear's in the back in my bag. And, you know, after a while I'm just exhausted. You know, I'm starting to get jetlagged really bad, and, uh--vehicles in Alaska have something called an arctic heater on them--and, uh, you know, I'd never seen one before--but, you know, my platoon serg--or sergeant, my treatment squad leader was trying to tell me how to turn it on and to warm the place up. They had taken--they were all soft-sided Humvees. We didn't have--we had one company that had up-armor Humvees at the time, and everyone else was in a soft-sided Humvee. So they had taken all the doors off and, you 00:48:00know, so I just remember being cold, and I remember being really tired doing everything I could to stay awake and, you know, keep Sergeant Rick awake. And, uh, you know, you'd be driving down the road and it'd be countryside. There'd be nothing and then you go through this village and everyone comes out of their--I mean, it's the middle of the night--but people are coming out of their house to watch you go by, and, you know, you see guys standing there. You know, they're militia guys or--they allowed everyone in Afghanistan to keep an AK-47, so there would be guys standing there with an AK-47, you know, just kind of nerve wracking. And, um, so we stopped at daylight and rested, uh, you know, somewhere halfway there, I guess, and, you know, took off again that night and--and got to the, got to Salerno, and, uh, you know, like I said my platoon sergeant was there and had set some stuff up ahead of time. But, you know, that, uh, you know, nothing really happened on that, on that convoy. The, they had been shipping all of our containers--we called them Tricons--they're, like, short shipping 00:49:00containers with, uh, jingle trucks. They're just local national trucks they hired, uh, to drive all their stuff down there, and they'd ambushed a couple of those jingle trucks and pushed our Tricons off into a wadi. And, you know, so we stopped halfway there and they were trying to recover them, and, uh, you know, but their--I don't remember if--if the R--RPG had detonated inside the Tricon or if they weren't sure--and so they kind of, they fiddled with--we s--sat around for a while and they fiddled with it and, then uh, you know, they decided to leave it. They were going to come back for it later, and, but, uh, you know, that was--you know, so it ended up being a pretty uneventful ride down there but, you know, certainly pretty, uh, nerve wracking for, you know--I mean, I hadn't even been in Afghanistan for twenty-four hours, and, you know, I'm, you know, sitting in the, you know, passenger seat of a Humvee in the middle of the night, freezing my tail off, you know. I didn't even, you know, I didn't know any of my guys' names or 00:50:00anything like that, so you know, it was pretty scary.

GAYHEART: So you hadn't acclimated?

ZIMMERMAN: Not at all, no.

GAYHEART: To the country, the people, the unit over there?

ZIMMERMAN: Nothing, no. I didn't even see, you know, an Afghani until that night, you know, driving down the road. I--you know, I mean, I was in--I was at Bagram airfield maybe for, like, eight hours, less than that before we took off for Salerno. So--

GAYHEART: So what was--what was the operation like from there?

ZIMMERMAN: Salerno had been run by some Ital--an Italian unit, and, uh, so it was a bunch of tents, uh, you know, inside a HESCO wall. And then when the Italian unit left the 10th Mountain had a brigade there, and so they sent a company down just to hold Salerno down. They weren't doing any patrolling out of there. They were just basically guarding the FOB, so we went down there and relieved them and--and set up. And we were just responsible for, you know, Khowst Province. 00:51:00There, there were five Afghani border checkpoints on the border in our area that, you know, the battalion worked with, and the Coast Guard has pass. There's a big pass through the mountains there that we were responsible for up in there. And, um, you know, so we, you know, kind of did our own battalion level, you know, local patrols there initially and then, you know, the 10th Mountain had their own operations that they included us in that we would, you know, participate in those when those happened. And that was, you know, just, that was just kind of our area there, and that's what the battalion patrolled and so--

GAYHEART: And what missions did you go on?

ZIMMERMAN: Um, well, my, my--my platoon never left all together. Obviously, I had line medics. Every infantry platoon had a line medic, so there's, you know, seventeen-eighteen of my guys right there. And then I had treatment squad leader, the treatment squad, I had 00:52:00the evacuations guys, and we quickly realized that, you know, the kind of concept of medical coverage that--that I had been taught and that everyone had been doing for, you know, the past however many years was- -was completely obsolete there. They had a forward, a reserve forward surgical team there, and so all the trauma that came into the FOB, to the forward operating base, went to the forward surgical team. And so really our battalion aid station didn't do any good there. You know, we saw the sick hall to start with, and so w--we started realizing was that we needed to push our medical assets out with, out--out on these patrols and out on these operations to, you know, so they could, you know, be more useful to the, to the unit. And so we would make teams around our physician, around our PA and then they would each have an NCO and, and two other medics, and they would go out on, you know, w-- 00:53:00on patrols probably with about a company-sized unit. And so I would--I would, you know, just pick one of those teams to go with usually and, and go out with them. Um, so, you know, sometimes I would ride with them. Sometimes, if we were doing, like a medical assistance mission in a village or something and we had a lot of extra medical supplies I would, you know, catch a ride with somebody else. But, you know, I would just, you know, I would go out with them and, uh, ride around. So--

GAYHEART: What was that like?

ZIMMERMAN: Um, you know, it was, I mean, yo--you know, you were, you were nervous doing it, you know, but at--at the same time it was, it was interesting. Um, they wouldn't let us treat local nationals with U.S. supplies and so we found some program where we could get 00:54:00money, and we would go buy a bunch of medical supplies that were made in Pakistan or whatever and take that out with us. And so once the infantry company had gone through and decided that, you know, the village was--you know, they had searched the village and done whatever they wanted. They had talked to the elders and, you know, I guess deemed it friendly or wha--whatever you want to say, you know then they would all-allow us to maybe provide medical care to some of the locals, and we would do that. Um, we would cordon off an area so that--because a lot of times they'd see it--we kept our crosses in on our ambulances and on our vehicles so that way they didn't know, you know, immediately that we were medical people because we had a tendency to get a kind of crowd around us. People looking for things, and, um, you know, we'd tell them we wanted to see the women and children first. You know, if not you just get a line of, you know, middle-aged men lining up to get medical care, and I always enjoyed, you know, seeing the, the kids come 00:55:00out and one see that they could get care because you'd see, you know, obviously their--their healthcare isn't very good and you'd see, you know, a lot of neglect, you know, with the kids and everything. And, uh, so tha-- I enjoyed that part of it. Uh--

GAYHEART: What kind of neglect?

ZIMMERMAN: Well, just, you know, I guess just lack of access to care, I guess is probably a better way to put it.

GAYHEART: What kind of things did you, what kind of things did you treat?

ZIMMERMAN: You know, they would bring us things that couldn't be fixed sometimes, and you know, we'd try to explain to them that, you know, we couldn't do it. And then there would just be, you know, routine, you know, colds, things like that, but, you know, we had a boy come out that had polio when he was younger or whatever and was on crutches and couldn't--couldn't really get around too well. One that really stands out to me was--is: there was a little girl who had fallen down a well and broken some bones, and they wheeled her to--out to us on a wheelbarrow. And she had this, like, splint that, like, forced her 00:56:00legs wide open and they had left a catheter in her to make it easier on her parents to go so, you know, she could just use the restroom through that catheter, and they didn't have to carry her out anywhere. And, uh, you know, I just--I just remember her being just filthy dirty and just bouncing around in this wheelbarrow, and--that, you know, someone brought her out to us. Um, so--but, uh, you know, I enjoyed those but you know, the--then there were other times when we would be out doing, you know, patrols and things where it was much more tense or it wasn't just kind of a random, you know, go to a village. There was actually, we had--would have intelligence that there was, you know, somebody or something in the village that we were interested in whether it be a weapons cache or you know, a person we've been looking for, and, uh, you know, we really had more of a purpose and we would, you know, just go straight to that village. And, you know, it, when it--when that was the case, you know, we always sent those little trauma teams out, and, 00:57:00you know, we would, we would stand by while the infantry guys did their thing and then, you know, if there was a casualty of any sort, you know, we would treat them and, you know, call in the evac and if not, we would just turn around and go back. So--

GAYHEART: Were you ever engaged in small arms fire?

ZIMMERMAN: Yeah. A couple times. Um, you know, I--you know, I was the medical platoon leader. You know, I never, I never took my weapon out and fired it. Um, I had s--medics in my platoon that fired their weapons, um, but, you know, as medics you--you just kind of have a different, different mission, you know. And, uh, and then as, you know, being the medical platoon leader you know I was, you know, you'd be thinking about things like cas--where you're collecting casualties or, you know, evac and things like that and you know you just kind of left the, the shooting up to the infantry guys. And you know that's 00:58:00what--that's what they do, and, um, so, you know, you would just, you know, seek cover somewhere and--and make--

GAYHEART: What's it like getting shot at?

ZIMMERMAN: The first time was really--I don't--I don't even know. It kind of caught me off guard a little bit, you know; a little bit s--you know, I guess scary, or a little bit nervous. But, um, you know, really when, when things like that--when that would happen when--like the first time ever was, an in--was like, an indirect attack on--on our forward operating base, and, you know, to me it was amazing how, you know, my training and my soldiers' training kind of took over and you did your job. And then--it wasn't until, for me at least, afterwards that I would kind of feel, you know, I j--you know--just feel kind of- -I don't know--jittery or nervous about it, and, um, you know, but while 00:59:00it was going on it didn't really bother me too much, I guess. It was just kind of a, you know, you just did what you were supposed to do.

GAYHEART: So what do you remember most about that tour of duty?

ZIMMERMAN: Hmm; what do I remember most? Just, you know, my, just, I guess, my--my soldiers, my platoon, the--you know, how well they, they performed, you know, and when we had casualties, uh--a lot of times the forward surgical team was real good about when we would have mass casualties that were from outside units that were coming into our FOB they would let our, uh, soldiers come down and assist in the triage and the treatment and things like that; and uh, you know, just, you know, how well they did and things like that. Um, what else do I--that 01:00:00stands out about it? I just, you know, I--I feel like I grew up really fast. You know, I told you I went in there, and you know, just being, you know, the youngest guy, I mean, on--only lieutenant once we got there and--and not having a clue and, you know, just--just how quickly I figured out what was going on and, and, you know, kind of built relationships with other officers and with the guys in my platoon. So that really stood out to me. Um, you know, and then certain, like, just certain instances where one time down at the forward surgical team I had a soldier who was, you know, he had--I don't know--been in the OR with the forward surgical team for, like, three or four hours working on a guy, and I remember he was, he was an Afghani guy. And the surgeons just decided, hey, you know, we've done all we can do, and, you know, we can't do anything else. And I remember how, like, shaken up that 01:01:00guy was that, you know, he had just spent, like, three or four hours trying to help this guy out and--and, you know, the surgeon, you know, was just, ready to--ready to walk away and you know, how emotional he kinda got just because he was so in--invested in that, uh, you know, the treatment of that one guy even though he wasn't even a--he wasn't a soldier in our unit. You know, he was an Afghani Militia. Um, what- -what other instances stand out to me? A lot, you know, a lot of times when they would shoot rockets at our forward operating base, you know, they were just erratic and, you know, it was just sometimes they land in the HESCO; sometimes inside the wire; sometimes they wouldn't. And, you know, the first time we had casualties from that I was in a meeting and we'd all turned our radios off, and we heard an explosion and, you know, you're kind of thinking, Oh, maybe the 120 mortars fired, or, maybe the engineers are out on the range, you know, blowing up some ordinance or a cache we just--we had found, or, you know, Someone's 01:02:00out shooting, practicing with an AT4. And--so no one turns their radio on. No one does anything, we just continue. And then another rocket impacted in--inside the wire at the FOB, and, you know, then everyone's kind of--just starting to get curious. And, you know, the S3 leaves the room and comes back and is like, you know, "Hey, you know, the-- they're shooting rockets at--at the--at the FOB, and one of the tents down there just, you know, took a direct hit." And so, you know, I remember going to where I was assigned to go to, you know, kind of monitor the flow of casualties, and, um, you know, the casualties came in. And I remember, you know, when it was all said and done with, that there had been a med--one of my medics, one of my NCOs had been down there really close, but they didn't carry their aid bags around the forward operating base. And so, you know, he felt--he was all--he was very distressed and upset because, you know, he was the first guy to get there to these casualties, but he didn't have his aid bag and, you know, all this training he had, he couldn't--couldn't do anything, uh, you know, really except comfort the guy because, you know, he didn't have his aid bag with him, and, uh, you know, he--I just remember him- 01:03:00-you know, hi-him being so shook up and it really bothering him for, for a while and, uh, just seeing, you know, how different people react to things like that. Um, the uh--sometimes other units would come down and operate out of our forward operating base. We'd get, like, Ranger companies and platoons, special forces units would come out of there, um, so one night we got a call that one of the--they called them other coalition forces, but it was the Ranger Battalion company--that was the Ranger company that was there had casualties, there was a mass casualty, you know, so they were overwhelmed with the forward surgical teams' operating tables. And so it's dark, my guys are down at the forward surgical team waiting for the helicopter to come in, um, and then they were going to go out to the--the, you know, the landing area 01:04:00and get the casualties off the helicopter and bring them to the forward surgical area and then just, you know, start the triage and, and get those guys going, and, um, we're standing outside the forward surgical team and you know, there's kind of, these rumors about, um, you know, the guy--one of the guys that's--that's coming in on this bird is Pat Tillman. And my guys, you know, I kind of, I was vaguely familiar with--with who he was and--and his story and, um, you know, they opened up the back of the ambulance, and, you know, they pull three casualties out and they go into the forward surgical team--into the triage area. And, uh, you know, I'm standing there. I--you know, you know, I watch them pull Tillman out of the back of the ambulance, and we're following them around to, you know, this area where they had set up to, you know, I guess basically as a makeshift morgue. And, you know, I remember the guys in his unit taking--taking over and, you know, telling us, "Hey 01:05:00guys, get out of there." And, you know, so once I f--once you kinda hear in the media later what went on with all that, you know, that really kind of s--sticks with you what you saw that night, but then, you know, I didn't even really know--I mean, I totally--I was familiar with who he was--but I remember walking back into the forward surgical team that night and his platoon leader had been shot in the face and shot in the leg. And so I'm looking at this guy in the triage area laying on the table, and I'm thinking to myself, man, I know him. You know, what--what's his name? What--you know, their--they don't have any names on their uniforms or anything, and, um, I was like, the guy's so familiar. I don't--I don't know where I know him from. And, uh, I never really fig--figured, you know figured out. It just sticks with me that, you know, something about that guy. And three, four months la--later--probably actually--probably longer than that, probably six months--I'm back in Alaska and I'm talking to a buddy of mine who had gone to Iraq, and he's like, "Hey, I ran into Dave Ulat in Iraq." And 01:06:00he was the head guy, the head cadet at West Point my sophomore year, and, uh, he's like, "Yeah. He was Tillman's platoon leader. You know, he had been wounded over there, and he was already back on," uh, you know, "Back," you know, "on another deployment in Iraq." And I just remember thinking, you know oh, you know, that's where I knew that guy from. You know, I mean, he wouldn't have known me from anybody, but, you know, being the head guy while I was at West Point, you know, I obviously knew who he was. And, and that's why he looked so familiar, and, you know, it just struck me that I didn't find that out until, you know, six months later that, hey, that was the guy laying there. So, just kind of interesting what a small Army it is and--and that, you know, guys that you knew are coming back, you know, would--would come through, you know, your forward operating base or would come through the surgical team there and just kind of, you know, interesting that, you know, the situation I guess you find yourself in.

GAYHEART: Right.

ZIMMERMAN: So.

GAYHEART: Well, tell me about coming to the University of Kentucky and, and coming home, and what was the time frame between when you coming home from Afghanistan and--

ZIMMERMAN: I came home from Afghanistan in August of 2004. Um, while I had been in the officer basic course I was mixed in there with some dentists and, you know, that's kind of when I started thinking about dental school. Um, it, uh, the application cycle for dental school starts in the spring and so I started looking into it, and by--by the time I got back from Afghanistan, by the time I had taken the test I needed to take it was too late for me to apply that year. So, you know, I continued to be the medical platoon leader and do things like that, um, you know, just all the normal training that goes along with being 01:08:00in the military. We, you know, got to do, you know, a cool training mission in Australia and just, you know, just kind of the basic things, and then we, uh, in May I applied to dental school, so May of, uh, '05, and started all that application. I had already taken my test and everything. And I started applying to get the Army to release me to go to dental school, and at that point they weren't too fired up about releasing me. They were saying that there was a shortage in, you know, my, you know, specialty in the Army. And so, you know, I had applied to dental school at this point and I had gotten in to here at Kentucky and, you know, to Michigan, and, um, but then all of the sudden the Army's telling me, hey, we're not going to let you go. And while I was at West Point, I was in the fly fishing club, and so I'm talking to 01:09:00the officer--I guess he was a lieutenant colonel at the time--who was in charge of the fly fishing club and telling him, "Hey. The Army's not going to let me go." You know, I think he'd written me a letter of recommendation. I said, "I appreciate you writing me the letter, but it's just not going to work out this year." And, you know, last thing I knew he was at, like, Fort Bliss or in Texas or something like that, and he's like, he goes, "Do you want me to get involved in this?" And I'm kind of thinking in the back of my mind, you know, what, what is this Air Defense officer that's in Texas going to be able to do for me to get me released to go to dental school? And it turns out he had moved to Washington D.C. and was doing budget work for, like, the surgeon general of the Army. So the next thing I know I've got some colonel calling me. He's asking me, you know, "What's going on?" And, you know, a couple weeks later I'm released to go to dental school, and so really I had narrowed it down dental school-wise between Michigan and Kentucky. And Kentucky, the Lexington area, UK, the college 01:10:00in general really felt a lot like Lafayette did, a lot like having Purdue there. Um, the school here was small, the dental school here. It's not the smallest one, but it's pretty small. And so I think there's--they let about fifty-five people in a year versus a lot of schools that are, like, ninety, a hundred, more than that. So that was really attractive to me and then just, you know, the admissions process here just seemed more friendly to me, and so, you know, I decided I was going to, you know, come here. And so I, you know, I'm not starting until June of 2006, so I had another, you know, nine months in the Army where, you know, I was still up in Alaska. Uh, I was the HHC XO for a little while and then they started to s--stand up a new infantry brigade up there, and so I was working on the brigade staff for a little bit. And then, you know, my wife--I was released from active duty so I came off active duty, and, um, you know, put into this 01:11:00scholarship program where the military's paying for me to go to dental school--and, you know, my wife and I moved down to Kentucky here.

GAYHEART: And what was it like being a Afghanistan veteran and Army officer and coming to UK? Was there anybody that knew your particular situation or anybody that could relate or did you feel, did you feel different in the classroom?

ZIMMERMAN: W--w--without a doubt I did, you know, probably for, you know--there was the military reason I feel--felt different and then there was the, my undergrad experience was, was different than a lot of these guys had, and, you know, I'd really never gone to a civilian, you know, education institute before--institution before. So, you know, the admissions, you know, they had all my previous employment history, so they knew that I had been in the military, that I was--had 01:12:00gone to Afghanistan, I was a veteran, that you know, I had gone to West Point. The guy that interviewed me, you know, knew all that, and, um, so the admissions guy, I think, hooked me up with, like uh, an advisor or a mentor who had been a Vietnam veteran and had come back and gone to dental school then was a colonel, had retired as a colonel in the Air Force as a dentist. And, uh, so, you know, I think he was probably pretty sensitive to--to that, you know, you know, in--in hooking me up with an advisor like that, and then--I guess by nature I'm a pretty shy, quiet guy. And so, you--you know, I didn't really broadcast to my classmates, you know, "Hey, I went to West Point," which that came out quickly because everybody wants to know where you went to undergrad at. And, you know, I didn't really broadcast that I had been to Afghanistan, you know. I just--you know, it was a just new situation, and you know, I didn't know any of these other people. 01:13:00I just kind of, you know, I didn't want to--I just kind of wanted to feel things out before--but, you know, once they knew I had been to West Point and they kind of started asking questions had I been in the military, you know, they kind of--found out I had been deployed. And then the guy that interviewed me teaches one of the first year classes, and he broadcasted it to the entire class one day that, you know, you know, "Hey, Zimmerman here is an Afghanistan veteran." And, you know, so, you know--but, you know, so right away, you know, everyone that, you know, the half the class that hadn't found out already found out, and you know, it wasn't that I was trying to keep it a secret or that I was embarrassed by it or anything but, you know, I'm just a shy guy. I don't really like the, you know, dealing with, I guess, maybe a little bit of the attention that it--it brought and so, you know, I guess that's kind of why I--

GAYHEART: Do you feel that it's uncomfortable to be able to convey your experiences to somebody that doesn't know anything about it?

ZIMMERMAN: With--without a doubt. Um, you know, I mean, they're 01:14:00automatically, it's hey, someone in the military. Someone was deployed. And you know, you went over there and, um, you know, you ran around with a rifle and, you know, were killing Afghanis left and right and, you know, then I'm trying to explain to them what I did as a, you know, Medical Service Corps officer and as a medical platoon leader and, you know--so, you know, it's kind of difficult to explain to them, you know, wha--what your job was over there and, you know, they kind of are quick to make assumptions as to, as to what you did.

GAYHEART: Did you see yourself different than the traditional dental school student?

ZIMMERMAN: It took me a while to kind of maybe figure out w--how that diff--what that difference was and, you know, 'cause I always kind of felt--I mean, I've--I've made some great friends here at UK and, um, at dental school--but, you know, I, I'm certainly not like, the center 01:15:00of my dental school class, you know, like the social center of my class or anything like that. And um, you know, so at first I'm thinking, you know, it's because I'm f--a little bit older. You know, I'm three or four years older. I'm married. Uh, you know, uh, I've had, my wife's had two kids while I've been in dental school, so I have two daughters now. And, you know, so at first I kind of thought that separated me a little bit, and the more I think about it now that I'm getting closer to graduation and see the way some of my classmates are acting around graduation is that this is really a very defining experience in their lives is going to dental school and graduating and becoming a dentist. And, you know, I mean, I--you know, if I didn't want to be a dentist 01:16:00I wouldn't have gone to dental school, I wouldn't--you know, and it's been a very good experience for me. But, you know, I don't think it's been as maybe defining as my time in the military was and my time, you know, in Afghanistan was. And so we just have maybe some different experiences that are def--you know, kind of define who we are and--and the way we look at things, and so, you know--but I, you know, and so I think that probably accounts for the big maybe difference between, you know, myself and--and my classmates. It's, you know, I mean, they're just--most of them have come straight out of undergrad. You know, dental school is what they've been building up for, you know, their whole, you know, educational careers and they're getting, you know, ready to go out and have a job for the first time and, and go do something, and, you know, I have already, you know, I was already in the military. I kind of--I basically had a job for three years and-- and an income and, you know, a lot of you--just, you know, a different path and, you know, different experiences that--that defined who I am 01:17:00and--and, you know, what got me to that point. So.

GAYHEART: Are there any times where you feel impatient around them or--

ZIMMERMAN: Yeah--yeah, I gue--I'd say so. Um, you know, some of the--they, you know, they--you know, the guys that know me have kind of picked up on the fact that I'm shy and, and, pretty quiet, and, you know, they like to razz me a little bit. You know, they'll call me lieutenant. They'll call me sir. They'll call me captain, you know, you know, be like, you know, "Hey, you know, Zimmerman can go out and, you know, kill you with his pinkie." You know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so, you know, it's all in good fun but, you know, sometimes they'll get on kicks like that and, you know, it wears me out. I'm just like, s--you know, cut it out, but--

GAYHEART: Are you proud of your service?

ZIMMERMAN: Without a doubt. Oh, yeah. Um, but, you know, I'm just--I'm 01:18:00one guy who--who's done it. I--you know? I mean, there are, you know, there were forty other guys in my platoon, nine hundred other guys in my battalion. There's, you know, however many other people in the Army or in the military that, I mean, I don't know how many I--Iraq and Afghanistan veterans are out there today, you know; hundreds of thousands. You know, and I mean, you know, I'm no different than any of them or, you know, haven't done anything different than any of--you know, I did nothing different than what any--anyone else has done, and so, you know, when I do get attention for it, you know, it just kind of annoys me a little bit because, you know, there's so much, there's so many more people out there that, you know, have done things as well. Why are you singling me out?

GAYHEART: What are your, what are your goals? Short-term and long-term?

ZIMMERMAN: Well, you know, I graduate in, like, three days here so, um, and the Army paid for me to go to school, so I am going back on to active duty to be a dentist in the military. Um, I s--owe them time for undergrad still and I owe them time for dental school, so by the time it's all said and done, you know, I'm going to be, you know, nine or ten years invested in the military--in the Army. Um, I'm certainly not afraid to walk away from it at that point, but there's cer--certainly some, you know, financial and future considerations to--to take into account as far as staying in, or retiring, um, you know, being a dentist in the military. You know, my wife worries that I'll get, you know, deployed again. You know, I don't really sweat that too much. You know there--there's one dentist for every three, four, five thousand people, you know, soldiers that are deployed over there, and there's just, there's just so few of them that--that end up 01:20:00back in--in Iraq or Afghanistan. So that doesn't really worry me--me too very much, and, you know, if--if it happens it happens. You know, I mean you know, again, I realize I'm in the Army and that's what I'm there to do. So, uh, but, you know, as far as long-term goals, you know, I just want to--the one thing about the military that I don't like is the constant moving around, and so, you know, now that I have two daughters and I'm kind of to the point where I'm--really have the itch to--to settle down somewhere and, you know, that may be a little easier to do as a dentist. You know, they may not be moving me around every three years or whatever, but, uh, you know, I just hope to, to finish, you know, the time that I owe now; to, you know, if I decide to stay longer, to finish that and, you know, to--to get out and you know, just settle--just settle down somewhere permanently. You know, I grew, 01:21:00I grew up--my parents, you know, we lived in the same house for, you know, eighteen years. My parents still live there, you know. That's kind of what I'm used to. I'm not--it's what--what my wife's used to, and that's kind of what we want for--for our daughters and everything. And so just, you know, find someplace we want to be and, you know, settle down, and if I decide to retire from the military maybe I'll work as a dentist for a couple days a week. You know, if I decide to get out sooner, you know, may--maybe I'll work more as a dentist, but, you know--

GAYHEART: All right. If you don't have anything else I appreciate you coming in and sharing your story with us.

ZIMMERMAN: Yep.

GAYHEART: You'll be up here soon, so thanks.

ZIMMERMAN: All right. Not a problem.

[End of interview.]