Interview with Howard Leo McMillen, September 28, 2010

MILLER: This is an oral history interview for the Kentucky Transportation Center Oral History Project. We are speaking this morning with, um, um, Leo McMillen, um, who has a, a long history of working for local government, um, in Kentucky. My name is Mardi Miller, M-i, uh, l-l-e-r, first name Mardi, M-a-r-d-i.

WHAYNE: And this is Laura Whayne, L-a-u-r-a W-h-a-y-n-e.

MCMILLEN: L-, uh, Leo McMillen. It's L-e-o M-c-M-i-l-l-e-n.

MILLER: Excellent. Um, Leo, can you tell us what your most recent position was, um, and the organization's name?

MCMILLEN: I was the Director of Streets, Roads, and Forestry for Lexington-Fayette Urban County Government.

MILLER: Um, where was your office located?

MCMILLEN: Fifteen-fifty-five Old Frankfort Pike, Lexington, Kentucky.

MILLER: And are you still with the local government?

MCMILLEN: No, I retired from there in January of 2009.

MILLER: Excellent. Um, and when did you first become involved with transportation in Kentucky?

MCMILLEN: Actually, uh, transportation, I guess you'd have to say I started surveying for, uh, rural secondary roads to start with. Uh, did quite a few of those scattered throughout, uh, the state. And, uh, did some in Ohio County, uh, Nelson County, Marion County, just, uh, all different various places.

MILLER: And what year did you begin surveying?

MCMILLEN: Um, I actually started surveying in 1957. I actually started surveying for, uh, it was called Triangle Engineering Company, in Bardstown, Kentucky. Uh, J.W. Spalding was the chief officer of 00:02:00that company. It was a partnership between, uh, Nally, Hamilton and Spalding, there around Bardstown area. And they called it Triangle Engineering Company. And we basically surveyed the rural secondary county roads, some different developments. Uh, lot surveys and farm surveys. Just about anything, but transportation was basically the rural secondary roads.

MILLER: Mm.

MCMILLEN: It was very interesting.

MILLER: Excellent. (McMillen laughs) Can you tell us a little bit about your training, um, the process you went through in becoming a surveyor?

MCMILLEN: Uh, started off at the bottom. What they called a brush- cutter. Started cutting brush and moved on up to, uh, ----------(??) and then running the instruments. Became what we call a party chief. And that was here in Lexington for C.J. Fuller Consulting (??) Engineers. And I came to Lexington in 1959, started working for him. 00:03:00And that was, that was a new, new experience. Because we'd been working on rural secondaries, and, uh, in the fall of 1959, Bert T. Combs was elected, uh, governor. Took office in January. And, uh, he had already won the election. And he actually started, uh, surveying the Mountain Parkway before he was sworn into office.

WHAYNE: Hm.

MILLER: Hm.

MCMILLEN: So we were working at Campton, Kentucky. And this here is a different experience for me. I had never been to Eastern Kentucky, so it was, it was interesting to go up and, now--especially now, when you go up and look at it, what we did then in '59 and '60, '61. But, uh, Governor Combs opened--made a new pathway to Prestonsburg and all the way up through there, so. Very, very interesting.

MILLER: How long, um, did that engineering process, uh, take? I mean, I imagine it took quite some time.

MCMILLEN: Uh, we started in the fall of '59. And not only did we do the, uh, location surveys, we also did the plans and the construction after it was approved and everything, so. We were up there probably 'til about '64, '65. It took that long a time to build it and everything. So. And that, that was a new experience for us, too, actually building the road.

MILLER: Mm.

MCMILLEN: You know, you--a lot of times you go out and survey one, you never see it until it's finished. But we took that one all the way through, from the ground all the way through. So it was very good. And then, uh--we went from--it started off as a toll road, as you probably know, and now it's a freeway. Now you can fly right on up through there. (Miller laughs) It used to take you two, three hours. Now you can get there in an hour and a half, or an hour and forty-five 00:05:00minutes. It makes a fantastic difference.

WHAYNE: It does.

MILLER: But there are some, uh, moments during that project that stand out in your mind, um, or maybe, uh, unforeseen obstacles that you ended up having to deal with, or--?

MCMILLEN: Uh, basically, it was a learning process of what to do and how to do it, and, uh, being involved in the construction end and the inspection end of it; we did the inspection end too. So we also had to come up with how to design, build, so. So we learned, we learned a whole lot.

MILLER: Do you--

MCMILLEN: Learned a whole lot doing that.

MILLER: Um-hm. Do you know if they considered, um, other roadways in the state, other parkways in the state at that time, or, um, did, did you use any other project going on as maybe an, an example for it, or--?

MCMILLEN: Uh, they had built the, uh--I remember this one because I was in high school, and we actually moved. I think the first, uh, toll 00:06:00road they built was the Kentucky Turnpike from E-town to Louisville. If I remember, a statement was made: starts nowhere and ends nowhere. (Miller laughs) Which, uh, I think, if the--for us, anyway, that lived in Elizabethtown and driving to Louisville, it made a hell of a--heck of a lot of difference instead of driving those, uh, little (??) roads up there or taking Dixie Highway--

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: --to Fort Knox and up there. So, yeah. It might have started nowhere and ended nowhere, but it sure helped us a bunch. (Miller and Whayne laugh) But it also caused us to move.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: Because they, uh, came through a little town that we was living in at that time.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: ----------(??) Kentucky. Which was right there on the turnpike. So that's when we moved to Elizabethtown. And I got out of high school and started surveying.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: So it was, it was very good. But, uh, I guess that was one of the first ones, but, uh, and then, uh, after we did Mountain Parkway, we started the Western Kentucky Parkway from Elizabethtown to, uh, 00:07:00Princeton, down there. So. We worked on--so I (??) worked on about almost all the toll roads in, in Kentucky. Surveying part of them. We didn't do all the construction or inspection of them. Mountain Parkway is the only one we did, uh, actual construction inspection --

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: --all, uh, wrapped up in one big nice round ball. (Miller laughs) But, uh, we worked on that. Worked on Western Kentucky Parkway, and Pennyrile's.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: Been on almost all the toll roads at some point in time, either building them or inspecting them or, uh, just doing location surveys.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: We also were in, uh--after those, we started--some of the interstates had been partially built at that time--and we started on I-75 with, uh, Berea. Did the location surveys on, on that one. And 00:08:00we did, uh, two surveys in Northern Kentucky, which was interesting also. We did 75 at the 71. At that time, 71 wasn't there.

MILLER: Mm. Okay.

MCMILLEN: And then we did the, uh, location survey for 71, and tied it all in together. We did the survey interchange there at 71/75. And did some widening projects on 75. And it still seems like--I mean, you're talking about back in the mid-sixties, early seventies, and, uh, hm. I don't think there's any construction going on now on 75 through there.

MILLER: (laughs) Yeah.

MCMILLEN: But all that time there's always been construction or addition or widening. Now we got three lanes--

MILLER: That's right.

MCMILLEN: --all the way through. Six lanes, three lanes on each side.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: So it's just, uh, amazing to see the difference from what it 00:09:00was to what it is today up through there.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: So.

MILLER: Hm.

MCMILLEN: We did a, uh--did a lot of surveying in the mountains. We spent a lot of time on US 23 going to 19. Up around Pikeville area and over to the Virginia state line. And, uh, I think that was the one that really--that impressed me the most, was what we did for that up there. Opening that up.

MILLER: Yeah.

MCMILLEN: Because it really makes a difference now if you're going to Pikeville.

MILLER: Mm.

MCMILLEN: Maybe you're going on up to the Virginia line around Pound all the way through there--US 23/119.

MILLER: Um--

MCMILLEN: Uh, the cut-through at Pikeville. We, uh--we had, uh, a little bit to do with that one; we didn't, uh--it was already been surveyed. We went up and did some of the, uh, construction staking for Bizac 00:10:00(??) Brothers. And they were building that road at that time. As I remember being on top of the, uh, mountain there at Pikeville, when they first did, uh--first started working on that, bringing it down.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: You go up there today and see all that and the river through it and the railroad tracks.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: It's just, it's just amazing to see. We used to joke about the mayor there and how he was going to have all that done. And he actually did it. The only thing he hasn't got done is built the dome over the city. (Miller laughs) They talked about that for a while, putting a dome over the city. That's about the only thing that he didn't get done. So that was, that was several years of surveying work. And, as they used to joke up in the mountains, "Oh, there comes a surveyor. 'Bout must be election time." (Miller laughs) But, uh, we were pretty consistent. It did--it took awhile to get, get all that 00:11:00built over time, since we had to survey with financing and getting all that end together. It took awhile. So, it's been very--it was really- -has been rewarding to go up there and see what we actually got done.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MILLER: Um, maybe back to the time that you were working with the rural secondary roads, which I guess that was more in Western Kentucky then.

MCMILLEN: Oh, uh, Central Kentucky.

MILLER: Central Kentucky?

MCMILLEN: Mm, well, it's what I call cen-, Bardstown area.

MILLER: Okay.

MCMILLEN: Bardstown, Elizabethtown.

MILLER: Were there any projects there during that time period that stand out to you? I guess it laid good groundwork for you training-wise.

MCMILLEN: Yes, it did. It was very good for, for training. But, uh, nothing really.

MILLER: Um-hm. Um, and can you describe for us, then, I guess, the transition--yourself, from being more of the--in the surveying line to, 00:12:00to working with local government?

MCMILLEN: Uh--yeah. Uh, we were--of course, our office was here in Lexington, but we spent--most of my time was spent on the road.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: And my wife and I still joke about it, because, well, we just celebrated our fiftieth wedding anniversary the tenth of September.

MILLER: Mm.

MCMILLEN: And if you ask us that, we'll say, "Yup, been married fifty years, we've probably lived together for thirty." (Miller and Whayne laugh) So--because it was--Monday through Fridays I'd be down on the road surveying and, of course, she stayed here.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: The only time I took the, uh, family with me was when they were young. And, uh, we lived in Eastern Kentucky; we lived on Mountain Parkway. And we went to, uh, Paducah, lived down there for about a year doing, uh, some surveying down there for I-24. And then we moved to, moved to Lexington. Been here ever since.

MILLER: Mm.

MCMILLEN: Uh--and they, they stayed and I would, uh, travel. Uh, some days I was gone ten or eleven days while we was working on 64 and I-81 in Virginia. Around Staunton, Charlottesville area. We had--we worked up there for almost a year and a half when we were building that one through the, through the Blue Ridge Mountains. That was--I enjoyed that one. That was, that was really nice to be up there in different country and--

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: --uh, never did see the finished product, because we just did what they called the "grade and drain".

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: So we never did put surface on the road. So I guess it was about six years later I drove up there and it was already completed, and it just amazed me to see what it really did look like.

MILLER: Mm.

MCMILLEN: So, and then, uh, the children started growing up and my son was playing baseball and football, and, well, I admit I was missing that.

MILLER: Yeah.

MCMILLEN: And, uh, went to work for a local--another local company here, 00:14:00and all their work was here in town.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: I worked for them, and, uh, that's really where I got involved, I guess, in the, in the city work. Uh, with that company, we were doing mostly land development in subdivisions and laying out city streets and all of that right here in town. It was, uh, mostly out in the--what they call, uh, Century Hills area off on the outside of Man O' War, which, Man O' War wasn't built at that time either. But, uh, that's where I really started working around in, in, uh, the city of Lexington.

WHAYNE: About what time frame is this?

MCMILLEN: About 1979.

WHAYNE: OK.

MCMILLEN: And, uh, that was when the, uh--we were doing like gangbusters--

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: --until about 1981. February, March of '81. That's when the market hit the low spots.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: And the company I was working for at that time, we didn't have 00:15:00any work at all.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: So I said, well, the city had an opening, and went down and applied, and they hired me. So I started to work for him in November of 1981, and stayed with him until January 1 of two-oh-nine. Started out in Streets, Roads and--let's see--Streets and Roads then. And, uh, of course, I'd been involved in construction and, and basically that's what they were doing, was construction, maintenance and that type of thing. Uh, I had done a lot of bridge work, and inspection of bridges. You know, I was just fortunate, at that time, they were getting ready to build a wooden bridge.

WHAYNE: Hm.

MCMILLEN: And, uh, I think that's why I was selected, because I had the experience in the bridge-building.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: So.

WHAYNE: Where was that wooden bridge?

MCMILLEN: It's out on Johnston Road.

WHAYNE: Hm.

MCMILLEN: It's between Bryan Station and Paris Pike. Fact, it doesn't 00:16:00belong to the city now. It belongs to--the state took the road over.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: They had a swap program there during that period of time in the--probably in the nineties--

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: --where the state took over some roads that connected between them and turned them into little secondary--and then we got some from them that--pieces didn't connect.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: So there was a road swap. That's done--they've done it several times in Fayette County.

WHAYNE: Mm.

MCMILLEN: Where they've had little pieces left over after they built something--

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: --and then turn them--turn them back over to us for us to maintain--

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: --and they--then the big ones--last one (??) was out on Harrodsburg Road. Where they widened that, there was little sections after there that was left going into subdivisions and type things. And they turned them over to the city to maintain.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: But gee, I started at the city in 1981, and, uh, it was, uh-- it was--has been a wonderful career, working for them.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MILLER: Mm.

MCMILLEN: Uh, worked underneath, uh, mayor--Amato was mayor when I first came to work in that November. And, uh, Scotty Baesler took over in January of that year, and was inaugurated January first. So I worked with him for his term while he was there. And then Mayor Miller came in, and then Mayor Isaac, and Mayor Newberry. So. I enjoyed working for, for all of them.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: I wasn't with--Amato just--like I said, I came to work in November, and he left in, in Jan-, in December. (laughs) So he wasn't very long. But, uh, they all had different, uh, personalities, and different things. But it was, it was encouraging, and that's where I really started in the--it was probably '82, '83 that we really got involved working with the, uh, the LTAP. They started having programs- 00:18:00-I don't know what year they started their programs, but, uh, somewhere along there, Calvin was, was there. And, uh, he was good friends with my boss at Streets and Roads, uh, Harrison Reid. Knew him well. And they started the, uh, training programs.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: And we started attending those. And they were held--uh, we went to them wherever they were in Northern Kentucky or--

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: --I remember one down in London, Kentucky. They had a couple down there we went to. Of course, right in town, too. And, uh, they were really good programs. They were--I mean, they were trained towards the, the employee that was actually doing the work out in the field. And I think that, uh, that helped us all a lot more than, uh, just, you know, what we could get on hand out there.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: They, they had some good programs. And then, uh, they started 00:19:00the Roads Scholars program.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: And, uh, we tried to get all of our supervisors in that Roads Scholars program. And, uh, I don't think we ever got them all in, but we got a lot of them in. And we got a couple of them--we may have got a c-, couple in the, uh, in the other one, the, uh, senior--

WHAYNE: The master?

MILLER: Road Master?

WHAYNE: Road Master.

MCMILLEN: Master program.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: Because, uh, at the time they started the Masters program, the city started training.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: Up until that time, cities didn't have any, any training. They trained the fire and their police, but, uh, they didn't actually have any training available to the rest of the employees. And they started a, uh, series too.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: And, uh, it, it was a good program.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: But I missed--I really missed the LTAP. Because it was more, more geared towards the workers out there actually doing work in the field.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: Uh, we had, uh, several meetings with Patsy.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: And, uh, she's been very ni-, very good to us on the, uh, training. We started having some, uh--got involved with the American Public Works Association. Harrison Reid got me involved in that.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: And, uh, they had some training programs available also to the higher-ups.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: Not really to the field employees. But we used the APWA for training and instructions, and then, uh, with the LTAP program. And, uh, Patsy was involved in APWA too.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: And I think Calvin was al-, Calvin was very supportive of, of both.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: So. It really worked out all the way around for--for the training aspects of it. Uh, I can't remember the guy's last name. Mike's his first name? Worked for the Department of Corrections?

WHAYNE: Oh, Mike King.

MCMILLEN: Mike King.

MILLER: Mike King, yes.

MCMILLEN: He was really good.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: Yup. Well, a lot of us attended his classes on, uh, I guess he called it public relations and, uh, but he, he was really good. I really remember Mike, because he, he was good to us. He really helped a lot of us in our interview process and on that type thing. How to talk with the media and--

WHAYNE: Do you remember some of the other type classes that were offered through the LTAP program? You know, the--I mean, the--what areas of-- you know, pavements or ----------(??) or those types of classes?

MCMILLEN: Uh, well, we had, uh--I'm trying to remember some of them, because they were, uh--road, uh, safety was one.

WHAYNE: Um-hm. Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: Uh, had uh, uh, Jerry Rhodes.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: He used to come--he used to give some training classes on some of those.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: And, uh, one thing we did get involved with Jerry Rhodes years later was, uh, railroads.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: He was doing the crossings. And we helped him install--we worked with him on installing some of his, uh, ----------(??).

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: Uh, we did one down in--I remember one down in, uh, Richmond. The crossing there. And then we did, uh, two here. Putting the asphalt in and it was a joint effort between, uh, Streets and Roads and the state highway department here and Jerry. And we did, uh, Waller Avenue.

MILLER: Mm.

MCMILLEN: And, uh, made that a lot better crossing.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: And then, uh, Rosemont. We did those two with Jerry. Who--I think that really helped--

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: --uh, the smoothness of them, anyway. (McMillen and Whayne laugh) Uh, they make a difference. And, uh, I can't remember some of the--I can't remember the other instructors' names, but of course we had the, uh--used to show the, uh, training--and this is in London. On 00:23:00one of them I remember. But it was just all, all aspects of what we were doing, actually, in roads. In--all the way up through there. So that may have really helped.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: And it was, uh, supervisor courses.

MILLER: Um-hm.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: And we sent--like, because we were trying to send all our supervisors to those. And I remember the one that was a specialist, media, but there was other ones, also, down through there. --------- -(??)

MILLER: Do you think that probably affected employee morale? To be ----- -----(??)--

MCMILLEN: Oh, I think it helped. It helped them definitely on that.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: On the, uh--they had ----------(??) specific training on some of it.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: And then, uh, with the LTAP program also, with the APWA, we had our annual state meeting.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: And, uh, the LTAP was always there, giving classes on that and instructions through there.

MILLER: And you're--been very involved with APA-, APWA even on the national level. Uh, is that right? Can you tell us some more about that?

MCMILLEN: I've been the, uh--I've been a delegate from Kentucky for, uh--going on 30 years delegate for the state of Kentucky. And, uh, three years prior to that I was an alternate delegate, which I attended (??). But, uh, but, but I try and attend the national congress each year with the APWA.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: So. And I'm still staying active in that one. And, uh, uh, another one that the LTAP program helped start, too, was the, uh, KACERS program.

MILLER: Mm.

MCMILLEN: Kentucky Association of County Engineers and Road Supervisors.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: Because that was started through Patsy.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: And, uh, gentleman up in Boone County. Trying to think of his name. He was out--he was, uh, he was Boone County for a long time and then he retired, and he's done work for LTAP, uh, teaching.

MILLER: Yeah. Oh, um, are you talking about Charles? Um--

MCMILLEN: No. I can't think of his name. (Miller laughs)

WHAYNE: No, I can't either.

MILLER: Okay.

MCMILLEN: And, uh, so--

MILLER: Yeah.

MCMILLEN: --but he was--Harvey. Harvey Pelley.

MILLER: Oh, yeah.

MCMILLEN: That's who it was. Harvey.

WHAYNE: Yeah.

MCMILLEN: Yeah. Couldn't think of his name, but, yeah, Harvey. He was, uh--I'd say he was probably the leader--

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: --of getting the KACER organization started. And he was their first president, too. But, uh, I don't think it would have went (??) if it hadn't been for LTAP--

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: --with Patsy's support. And, uh, had, uh--Annette Smith was involved in that.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: That's been a good--I think that's been a good program, too. 00:26:00We really haven't got it off the ground like we would like to see it, but--

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: --we worked hard on it.

MILLER: Mm.

MCMILLEN: And then we always coordinated that with--at that time we always had the, uh, fall program, usually--

MILLER: Um-hm.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: --at U of K--

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: --for, uh, transportation. I think y'all still do that, don't you? Or not as much as you used to?

WHAYNE: The--are you talking about the conference, or the graduation ceremonies--

MCMILLEN: Uh--

WHAYNE: --or more the transportation conference?

MCMILLEN: More the conference.

WHAYNE: The conference. Um, I think it is still done, but it's not done by the LTAP program.

MCMILLEN: Um-hm.

WHAYNE: It's, it's, um, either the main center and/or another group that they worked with.

MCMILLEN: Good.

WHAYNE: OK.

MCMILLEN: Well, that was always fun, too--

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: To go talk with everybody.

MILLER: Mm.

MCMILLEN: Because you had the different people in. And, uh, and the KACERS is different from the APWA. I think the people see it as different.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: Yes, they think KACERS--they think APWA is for Louisville, 00:27:00Lexington, and Northern Kentucky--

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: --more than it is for small-county governments. Which is not correct.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: It's, it's--they're both involved in it. But, uh, I think we've got more people out in the state, uh, local governments and county governments that are involved in KACERS than we do in APWA. We've got, uh--APWA scatters--we've got Western Kentucky, Bowling Green--we go from Bowling Green over to Owensboro up through Louisville to Northern Kentucky and then back to Lexington and back down. We don't have much participation up in Eastern Kentucky--

MILLER: Okay.

MCMILLEN: --involved in the APWA. But they're, they're both good organizations; they both do a good job of, uh, working with the people.

MILLER: Mm.

MCMILLEN: But I, I've enjoyed it all.

MILLER: Mm.

MCMILLEN: There've been bad days and good days, but--(Whayne laughs)-- 00:28:00you have those regardless of what you're doing. I still have them right now in my retirement. (Miller and Whayne laugh) I have my good days and the bad days, so.

WHAYNE: Uh-huh.

MCMILLEN: Doesn't matter whether it's work or what you're doing.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: But the LTAP program, I really do think, has helped statewide. Statewide is where I really see the difference in the, in the LTAP and the teaching and the instructions and--that go out. And things have changed, you know. Now you've got to have, uh--pass the licensing test to do the, uh, weed control--

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: --herbicide applications and that type thing.

WHAYNE: Yeah.

MCMILLEN: And another one ----------(??) and, uh, and right now you've got to flag (??). Have to be certified.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: So all that has really changed. I mean, before, you'd just give somebody a stick and a flag and put them out on the road and usually the ones that was injured or nobody, uh, could get along with- 00:29:00-(Miller laughs)--so you'd put them up somewhere else where they're away from everybody. (Whayne laughs) Keep them separate. So--but now, I mean, now it's, it's--you have to be certified and you have to be trained.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: And, uh, I think LTAP has really stepped in on, on that.

MILLER: Mm.

MCMILLEN: And, uh, they do that statewide.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: I mean, and that has really been wonderful to, to all of us, too.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: And, of course, then when we first started is was--give somebody a set of keys and tell them, "There's your truck," and "Go on out here," and now you've got to have the CDL license, you've got to have training, you've got to pass it, you've got to take your test. So, uh, it's, it's--I've definitely seen a lot--lots of improvements.

MILLER: Um-hm. Hm.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: I know when I first came--when I first went to work for the city of Lexington in '81, uh, I was really surprised, because in the winter, in January and February of '82, when it was snowing and--to see what vehicles they had. I mean, it was just--it absolutely blew my mind. They had old army surplus--

MILLER: Um-hm.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: --equipment.

WHAYNE: Mm.

MCMILLEN: Had holes in the floorboards you'd see. Didn't have any hydraulics. Uh, snow plows, you know, had a couple, and the rest of them was pull a twelve-by-twelve board behind you.

WHAYNE: Mm.

MCMILLEN: So it's--now you got the hydraulics, and you can turn the- -then you turned the plows by hand if you wanted to turn them. If you wanted to raise them up you had to, uh, jack it and there was a hydraulic and you jacked them up by hand. Took two people to operate the truck. And now everything's hydraulics, and you push a button and it goes up, goes down, turns left, turns right. (Whayne laughs) Uh, it's just--it's amazing, the te-, technology changes.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: Anyway, things have changed. Uh--we've done, of course, the asphalt, the resurfacing city streets, and, uh--it's just been, uh-- it's amazing, how, how it's changed. We'd go out and put another inch of surface on the street, and seven, eight, nine years later we'd come 00:31:00back and put another inch on it. And no curves left. And then come up with the milling machines. And now we go in and we can mill off the old asphalt and put new asphalt back. So. And that's, uh, that's some more classes the LTAP's done, is the asphalt--that was a two-day class we went to here in town.

MILLER: Um-hm. Those were good opportunities, also, for different communities to learn from each other, aren't they, and to compare notes, I guess, if you will?

MCMILLEN: I think that's one of the, one of the best things with the annual conference, or the annual conference they're trying to have with the APWA--

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: --is that aspect right there--

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: --is you get different things from different people, different towns doing different things. And you sit there and talk about what you did and what they've done. And, uh, if you really get right down to it, somebody's done something somewhere. It's not new. Somebody's 00:32:00done it someplace. And that's, one of the great assets you have with the LTAP program--

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: --is that you can reach those people. And another thing that Leroy took advantage of was the films.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: Safety films.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: Now, I guess you all got them all on disk.

WHAYNE: Not quite, but we're working on it. (laughs)

MCMILLEN: Not quite. (laughs)

MILLER: We're getting there. We've come a long way too.

MCMILLEN: Yeah, we used to--we, we borrowed them all the time, and we gave classes on it and used them for, uh, we used them for snow removal training--

MILLER: Um-hm.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: --plowing and, uh, all that. So it has really been helpful. And then we used the, uh, safety videos for our safety classes that we started doing. And, uh, we were holding those once a week. And, uh, I think, you know, that's something that, that really changed it too because in the eighti-, mid-eighties--

MILLER: Um-hm.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: --nobody thought about that. And then everything changed because you really needed the, the training.

MILLER: Mm.

MCMILLEN: It's, uh, it's made a whole lot of difference. I think all the way around, you got better-trained employees. And I think you get better service out here to the public, because they're better-educated, and they've got training, and they have a better idea what to do.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: Instead of just sending them out there. So. And then the working relationships that we have--

MILLER: Um-hm.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: --especially with District 7, the highway department here in town. We've always had such a good working relationship with those people. Try and work with them on any problems. And you usually don't have, you know, usually you have--those type problems will come in, in the wintertime.

WHAYNE: Um-hm. MCMILLEN: When we're all out there trying to get, get the roads open. And we've worked back and forth.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: We've gone out on the--we've responded to calls out on the 00:34:00state highways because they couldn't get there, or they had a truck broke down and we've gone out and helped them, and they've helped us.

MILLER: Um-hm. Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: And, uh, different technology that's being used. You know, uh, back in the early

eighties, we didn't even worry about any snow moving. It got one or two inches deep. And then it, then it was three times harder to get off.

MILLER: Um-hm.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: And just to see how that's changed over the years now--

MILLER: Mm.

MCMILLEN: --we're out putting it down before snow ever gets here. (Whayne laughs) We sometimes miss it. (Miller laughs) It doesn't come. But, uh, I'd rather, you know, when people ask us why, well, we'd rather do that; we'd rather miss it. Because, uh, there was one year there that--when they was predicting a dusting and it ended up sixteen inches of snow out here on the ground--(Miller and Whayne laugh)--and we were still, three weeks later, trying to get it off.

MILLER: Mm.

MCMILLEN: So it's not, uh, it's a lot better to go on out there and try and do it ahead of time.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: But, uh, you know, the technology wasn't there before.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: But now with the different chemicals we've got, and the salt brine, and go out and pre-treat the roads, it makes a lot of difference. But, uh, we were probably, uh, I think--there was an article in, uh, either Roads and Bridges or Roads that was written by one of your all's people there at LTAP. Uh, he worked for the Federal Highway Administration for a while. Then he came and worked for you. I can't--you know, I'm trying to remember his name.

WHAYNE: Oh. Was it John Hibbs?

MCMILLEN: Yes.

WHAYNE: Yes.

MCMILLEN: John Hibbs.

WHAYNE: Yeah.

MCMILLEN: Uh, when John came to work for y'all, he came out and visited us in Streets and Roads, and, uh, we got talking with him, we--and, uh, he was, uh, active.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: Very active.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: And, uh, we learned a lot from John. John taught us a whole lot out there. And he worked with us on it.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: And, uh, we were about one of the first ones that said, in, in, uh, in--around this area, anyway that I know of, that were using, uh--we were putting liquid calcium chloride with our salt. And, uh, he wrote a nice article and put it in one of those, uh, uh, magazines.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: So. But that was really good. And, uh, at that time we were the only ones that had the, uh, liquid calcium chloride.

WHAYNE: In the state?

MCMILLEN: In--no, in and around the Fayette County. Lexington.

WHAYNE: In this area?

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: And when things were--got cold and bad, we'd, uh--state trucks would come through, and we'd give them some.

MILLER: Mm.

MCMILLEN: And it worked, and that's what I'm saying--that's why, really, we had a good working relationship with them, back and forth.

MILLER: Mm.

MCMILLEN: We'd share what we had. And, uh, there was times there when we got low on salt, we'd be begging them to give us some, and they would. (Miller and Whayne laugh) And, uh, now it-, it's gotten to the 00:37:00point now where we get our salt brine from District 7.

WHAYNE: Hm.

MCMILLEN: So. It's paid off in the long run. If you just work with each other, you'll get--you can get what's done, and the people, they- -all they want's the roads clear. They don't care whether New Circle belongs to the city of Lexington or whether it belongs to the Department of Highways, they don't care. We're all going to get the blame if it's--if snow's on it. (Miller and Whayne laugh) So. But those, those type things, working and learning how to work with those people. And, of course, you've got the media and learning how to deal with that. And I think that's where Mike King helped me a lot with that.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: And, uh, I'll tell you someone e-, uh, two other people, I'd say, really, that really helped me as far as media, because I never had any, any training, you know, until we had that with Mike. But Sam Dick on Channel 27.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: Sam was always very helpful to me. And, uh, Tom Kenny, who is 00:38:00with Channel 36 now. Uh, there for awhile we had a standing date. It used to be the old Jerry's out on the corner of Broadway and New Circle.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: When it was snowing, I'd meet Tom after about five o' clock in the morning. We'd take some pictures and show the snow and the trucks. And, so, uh--what I mean by them really helping me, they would go over it before we started. And "this is what we're going to do, this is what we're going to ask."

MILLER: Mm.

MCMILLEN: And, I mean, I got to--

WHAYNE: Yeah. (laughs)

MCMILLEN: --shaking and nervous and so they really did help as, as far as getting me used to talking with them and meeting them ---------- (??). And then the other one is Jack Pattie (??) on the radio.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: He would call and we'd talk on the radio live. And Jack was always very supportive and always gave us a good report.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: So. And the media can really--I mean, they can kill you if 00:39:00they take a notion. So. But everybody--that's the thing I noticed here in Lexington: the media is, is--they're interested, and they'll be there. They'll come out. They want pictures--

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: --and, and they want to talk to somebody.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: And that's what they want. And if you'll meet them and talk with them, uh, you can get the results, work out good for everybody around, and it gives the people an opportunity that live here to know what's going on.

MILLER: Um-hm.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: You know, and we can't get that word out. I mean, we could talk 'til our face was blue, but if the media wasn't there to get the word out to the, to the public that, you know, we are out here. We are putting salt down. We are plowing the roads. But if it's snowing, it's going to take a while to get there. So, they, they've helped all the way around. And we've had a couple of tornadoes that came through, and they've helped on that end, getting the word out and where, where 00:40:00they are. And, uh, again, again, working with the, uh, police and the fire department on various occasions, mostly it involves something like, you know, there are special events going on. The cooperation back and forth through that is really, really good. Police are having a problem somewhere they'll give us a call if they, if they need us. The fire department's the same way. And probably what a lot of people don't think about is fire in, uh, in the winter. You don't think--you know, the fire department will get there. But, uh, we're usually there at a fire too. Streets and Roads. Because of the ice. Because they're spraying water, and it's freezing--

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: You got to keep the ice off the road and keep them safe, too. So. It's, uh--it works out for everybody. The same way with the, uh, Kentucky American Water Company. If they got a water main break 00:41:00and we need to help them get the road put back together, that's, uh, it's a cooperative attitude all the way around. And then, uh, some of the things you don't really think about is, even within the city, is cooperation between the different departments. I mean, we're Streets, Roads, and Forestry, but you got Engineering maybe working on a road over here somewhere, and you got the Parks department's doing something someplace. And you got all the other things to look out for, too. And they're all doing different--uh, Engineering'd be doing construction, and Parks does a lot of construction of their own, so. Trying to meld all that together and work with everybody to, to get the finished product done--

MILLER: Mm.

MCMILLEN: --it's very--you can't do it by yourself.

MILLER: Unh-uh.

MCMILLEN: You, you can't do it by yourself. You got to have the cooperation of everybody that's got to pitch in and do it together.

MILLER: I imagine your ear-, early experiences with the parkways and some of those projects, too, orchestrating different organizations, different partners that are--all have different interests probably helped get your skill going in those directions, don't you think?

MCMILLEN: (laughs) It did, yep.

MILLER: Yeah.

MCMILLEN: Because you do have the different things going on, and--

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: --uh, different aspects.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: You got people that are interested in just doing their part, and they want to get their part done and get out of there. And then you got the other ones, and a lot of times coordinating all that together and trying to get everybody working on the same page, see.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: It's, uh--it's difficult.

MILLER: Mm.

MCMILLEN: But it's still--basically, it's still all fun. (Whayne laughs)

MILLER: Well, excellent. I think you've, uh, been a big help to the project--(McMillen laughs)--given us a really interesting perspective, and a local perspective. And the--from your surveying background, also an unexpected benefit, uh, to the project there as well. We appreciate very much your time.

MCMILLEN: Well, I'm glad to do it. (Miller and Whayne laugh) Because, uh, even, you know, I go back some places--

MILLER: Mm.

MCMILLEN: --and, you know, I may have surveyed that road in the mid- sixties--

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: --but to go back and actually see it, and some of them have never changed.

MILLER: Mm.

MCMILLEN: Then, 75 has changed; now it's six lanes instead of two, so. And, uh, another thing, really, I enjoyed was--until the children got grown, are up going to schools--uh, I liked the travel part.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: I was home, home every weekend except when we was working in Virginia, and we'd work eleven straight days and come home. But it was just different aspects of that. And, uh, I think, uh, working in Virginia helped us a little bit. Because it's a whole different--they, they do their work a lot different than what they do here in the state of Kentucky, as far as building roads and things are concerned, so. But, uh, yeah, it was fun, to go back up the Blue Ridge Mountains and see what we were doing up there, and now drive over it.

WHAYNE: Yeah.

MCMILLEN: And I think that's, uh--that's another thing I really like, is just even going from here to Prestonsburg--

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: --or going to Hazard, any of those where we worked on--

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: --and to go back and see what they look like today, and remember what, what it was before. Because, uh--on, uh, Mountain Parkway, the original Mountain Parkway started there at Winchester and ended just the other side of Salyersville. And that was a toll (??) part. And then they, uh, extended on up towards, uh, Prestonsburg and the, uh, Pikeville area with US 23, through there, and moved that on, and then, uh, they came back with what they called, they called--at that time, they called it the Mountain Parkway Extension. And it started at Campton and went, uh, through Jackson on up towards, uh, 00:45:00Hazard. And what I remember particularly about that one that was--I thought was fun was--they didn't, but I did--was, uh, the only way they had access--they were using a mule ----------(??) up through the, through the hollow where we were.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: --because the road was dirt--

MILLER: Um-hm..

MCMILLEN: And we went over the, uh, the hill, or the mountain there to the other side, uh, they were still using the horse and wagon--

MILLER: Mm.

MCMILLEN: --to get back over to Campton to get supplies--

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: --when we built that road through there. And some fall mornings, it smelled pretty good. (Miller and Whayne laugh) And you smelled some, uh, you could smell some liquids being made up there. So that was, that was interesting too. But, uh, yeah. We built the road 00:46:00from Campton to Bethany up there. And, uh, we used to have to go in on there--we'd meet at, at the Bethany Inn--

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: --and get on a wagon behind a 'dozer, and that's the only way we'd get there to where we could to start surveying and, uh, actually building the road. Until we got down through there. So, I really thought that--

WHAYNE: What time frame was that, or--?

MCMILLEN: It was in the mid-sixties.

WHAYNE: Mid-sixties?

MCMILLEN: Um-hm.

WHAYNE: Yeah.

MCMILLEN: Uh, when was President Kennedy killed?

WHAYNE: Sixty-three?

MCMILLEN: Sixty-three?

WHAYNE: Maybe?

MCMILLEN: That's where we were working the day he was shot.

WHAYNE: Okay. Right.

MCMILLEN: We were working on that, on that section, the extension there. Because, uh, of cour-, we didn't know anything about it out there, no. Until we got home, and my wife was talking about it when I got home.

WHAYNE: Mm.

MCMILLEN: Said, "Have you heard?" I said no.

WHAYNE: Yeah.

MCMILLEN: We hadn't heard a word out there, so.

WHAYNE: Mm, yeah. Okay.

MILLER: Mm.

MCMILLEN: Yeah. It was--it's been a very worthwhile--satisfying, to go back and, and see what's been accomplished and how we have improved the 00:47:00transportation and people can get around.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: It's just amazing what has been. Whew. A long time. (all laugh) Hopefully we've improved since--in 50 years. (laughs)

MILLER: Definitely. Well, excellent.

WHAYNE: Yeah.

MCMILLEN: Very good.

MILLER: Uh, we appreciate very much your time and, uh, involvement on this project.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: I'm glad to give it, because it's, it's, uh--like I say, it's been a rewarding career for me.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: All the way around. Working with LTAP, working with the highway departments and the different people I've met, and, I mean, it's just, it's just amazing. And to the APWA and KACERS both. APWA on the national level and KACERS on the local level. But, uh, the--and like I said, when you talk to those people, we've all got the same problems. And somebody has already done the solution.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: If you can find the right person. (Miller and Whayne laugh)You don't have to reinvent the wheel, as they say.

MILLER: I know.

MCMILLEN: You can just get the information from somebody else, and it makes a, it makes a big difference.

MILLER: Mm.

MCMILLEN: And, uh, I really do think with, uh, Patsy, with the LTAP program and, of course, Calvin was there, I think they really have helped all across the whole state of Kentucky with their training program. I guess being well-thought-of and well, uh--they need to keep that funding is what I'll say. (all laugh) Because we've still got people out there and the training still is needed because technology changes, and--but we used a paper and pencil, and now, where's the computer? (Miller and Whayne laugh) You know, you don't have a computer?

WHAYNE: Yeah. (laughs)

MCMILLEN: Cell phones, I mean, that's another thing. You used to rely on radio contact, and we didn't even have radios for a long time.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: And we finally got radios. And then--and I resisted cell 00:49:00phones. I'll be truthful with you. (Whayne laughs) I resisted cell phones.

MILLER: Mm.

MCMILLEN: Uh, you don't need me that bad. (Miller laughs) But they convinced me otherwise. (Whayne laughs) So. And the same way with the computer, and I still don't know--I still don't know computers.

MILLER: Well--

MCMILLEN: Mm-mm. Unh-uh. I had (??) my first computer class, and I think that was with y'all--something like that.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MILLER: Probably. We do--

WHAYNE: We do have a class, yeah.

MCMILLEN: Yeah. ----------(??) You take this disk and you put it in here and you got to do this and you got to format it and all of that and now, you just push a button.

WHAYNE: Yeah.

MCMILLEN: No formatting. Just amazes me.

WHAYNE: It makes it easy.

MCMILLEN: And I never thought I would say that. (Whayne laughs) And my computer crashed last Friday, so.

WHAYNE: Oh no. (laughs)

MCMILLEN: And then we've got the--and then I got--I had a lot of things going on this week, and I really needed it, and, like, a friend of mine asked me, said, "You never thought you'd say that, did you?" I said, "No, I didn't." (Miller and Whayne laugh) And I said, "Yep, and I won't get it back for ten to fourteen days." (laughs)

WHAYNE: Oh, wow.

MILLER: Yeah, you can't hardly live without it.

WHAYNE: Yeah.

MCMILLEN: It has ma-, made a difference. It really has.

MILLER: Mm. Mm.

MCMILLEN: But the, uh, the uh--having you back with the--getting the program out and the newsletter out, and of course, uh, like I said, Patsy's help, and, uh, we've had good, good people to work with at the LTAP. ----------(??) Martha (??) has been wonderful all the way through. Annette Smith, when she was there, she was very helpful to us.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: Valerie has helped us with the, uh, KACERS program. And, uh, all the people at LTAP has really helped us.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: Just trying to remember the name of the young lady that used to be out there. Her dad was a judge over in Franklin County.

MILLER: Oh.

WHAYNE: I'm drawing a blank.

MCMILLEN: I can't think, I can't think of his name now.

WHAYNE: Yeah.

MCMILLEN: I think he had a twin sister.

MILLER: Hm.

WHAYNE: Oh, Terry.

MCMILLEN: Terry.

WHAYNE: Terry.

MCMILLEN: Terry, right.

WHAYNE: Terry Runyon, or--

MCMILLEN: Yeah, Terry Runyon.

WHAYNE: Yeah. Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: Yeah. Yeah. She was, she was a big help to us, too, when she was there. And, uh--but I think that's how we got really more, uh, involved with LTAP because we'd go to these places, like Terry or Martha, they'd be there setting up, and we'd help them set up, we'd help them carry the stuff in. And, you know, we got familiar with them, and--

WHAYNE: Yeah.

MCMILLEN: --instead of being an instructor or someone that you didn't know, it was a friend.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: And that really makes--and that really makes a big difference with, with LTAP.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: I mean, we all considered them as our friends.

MILLER: Um-hm.

WHAYNE: Yeah.

MCMILLEN: Not somebody teaching or anything like that, but--and they, they knew what they were doing.

MILLER: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: So all that really helped. And, uh, there was one more, uh, na-, name I'd like to mention. I'm trying to think of it. He's out of Prestonsburg.

WHAYNE: Freddie Goble.

MCMILLEN: That's it. (Miller and Whayne laugh) Freddie Goble. Yup. Yup. Freddie worked for y'all for awhile.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: And, uh, Freddie was good, comical. He used to tell jokes and, of course, he is a comedian, so. But, uh, Freddie was good to us, too. He was doing the Circuit Rider Program there for awhile.

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: And, uh, Lance was good too. Lance, Lance helped us with the Circuit Rider Program after. But, gee, I couldn't--I can't believe I forgot my friend Freddy. (all laugh)

MCMILLEN: Mm-mm. Monroe.

MILLER: Yes.

MCMILLEN: (laughs) I got an autographed picture of Monroe.

WHAYNE: Oh. (all laugh)

MCMILLEN: So, yeah. Like I say, it's, it's just been--uh, I've had a, uh, very wonderful and, I think, satisfying career working on the, on the highways. I never thought about it at the time, but it really has 00:53:00took me places I'd never been. I mean, in Kentucky, I'd never seen some of the places. But I think I've been over (??)--I think I've been in every county.

MILLER: Yeah.

MCMILLEN: Every county, sooner or later, I've been in it, one way or the other. (Miller and Whayne laugh) Going through it or building a road. And just to see the difference that, that building a road makes--

WHAYNE: Um-hm.

MCMILLEN: --it's just amazing the ec-, you know, economic things about people being able to get in and get out. So, when we started them in '59 and '60, I mean, you went up creeks, and that was a road. Now you got asphalt and concrete and, shoot. (Whayne laughs) It's amazing, really, I mean, when you stop to think about it. So. Very good.

MILLER: Impacted a lot of lives. Well, we thank you--

MCMILLEN: Um-hm.

MILLER: --for your long career--(McMillen laughs)--and playing a big role with all of that. So thank you very much for your time today.

MCMILLEN: You're welcome.

MILLER: This concludes our interview.

[End of interview.]