Interview with Dace Stubbs, October 22, 2013

 MIKE VEACH: This is Mike Veach introducing, um, interviewing Dace Stubbs for, uh, the Kentucky Bourbon Tales Project on the twenty-second of October 2013. Thank you for agreeing to be interviewed for this project. And, uh, let's start off, just give me a little background on, uh, on your history.

DACE STUBBS: Well, I'm born in Louisville, Kentucky. My father was George Garvin Brown, really the [George Garvin Brown] II or Jr. Um, my great-grandfather was George Garvin Brown, who started the company. And I've been, uh, carefully, uh, tu-, tutored, uh, about Brown-Forman all my life. Uh, became a director in about 1999. The first female director at Brown-Forman. And, um, I'm fourth generation. I'm also a mother of, uh, an employee at Brown-Forman. 00:01:00My son works for Brown-Forman. And, um, it's a great town to have Brown-Forman be a part of.

VEACH: Thanks. So let's go a little bit more back into your, uh, uh, background. You said you were born here in Louisville. Uh, what about your education?

STUBBS: Well, I started out at Louisville Collegiate School. And, um, actually, academics were not the strength of my future. (laughs) And I went away to boarding school and then I came back and went to Atherton. And married at age twenty-one. Uh, no college, formal college training. Um, but I had a wonderful training through being a volunteer in this community. Uh, I was on many boards, uh, as a young, young person by encouragement 00:02:00of my mother. And, uh, just really gave me a, a foundation for being part of this community and a philanthropist, I guess you might say.

VEACH: So let's follow up on that a little bit. What were some of these, uh, boards and, and programs and charities that you were, uh, involved with?

STUBBS: Well, uh, the Louisville Ballet was one and we helped bring the first male dancer to, uh, Louisville, which was a, a big step. Um, the zoo, I was on both the zoo boards, the foundation and the society, and the first female to go on both of those boards. Um, it was an interesting experience because I was younger by thirty or forty years than any of the other directors. So, it was a great way to be mentored into the community. Uh, been on the St. Francis School 00:03:00Board and chairman of it for three years, um, back when my children were part of it. Um, the school was started by my father and some of the other great people of Louisville that were interested in another form of education for Louisville. Um, I would say those are some of the ones that I've--

VEACH: --okay--

STUBBS: --been involved in. (laughs)

VEACH: Well, it sounds very good. So, um, you were connected through the bourbon industry through your family, obviously. Uh, what are some of your, uh, earliest, uh, uh, recollections of Brown-Forman and Old Forester?

STUBBS: Well, I can remember vividly coming down to visit my father and my Uncle Lyons--(laughs)--and at Brown-Forman and, um, their wonderful, my 00:04:00father's secretary, Miss Monroe, who was just a very special lady. And I mean, I was probably eight or ten when I would come down and, and be a part of what Brown-Forman was going to be and was in those days. It was friendly, small, uh, energetic. This was even before Jack Daniel's was purchased, so it was a, it was a wonderful kind of experience that I was allowed to act like I was a big girl, and yet I was a very little girl, and, um, a personal part of the company.

VEACH: Well, being from the Brown family, you obviously, uh, had some, uh, social ties with some of the other, uh, distilling families in Louisville. Who, who were some of the, uh, uh, distilling 00:05:00people that you grew up with?

STUBBS: Well, for example, the Nashs, um, and the Thompsons were, uh, Bobby Nash and Buddy Thompson were both part of Glenmore. And, um, I fox-hunted with Bobby Nash for years. And, and whenever we were at their house, uh, they always had Old Forester on the bar and when they were at our house we always had Yellowstone on the bar. And it was a lovely reciprocal kind of, uh, experience. We are related way back, so, uh, but that, that didn't have anything to do with just the thoughtfulness that went on in, in our industry. Uh, the Van Winkles, um, --------(??) Weller were great friends. I spent the night at the Van Winkle's house many, many, many times. Still very good 00:06:00friends with, um, several of the Van Winkle family and, um, of, um, the McClure family, who are also part of the Van Winkles. So it was, you know, it, it was special.

VEACH: Hmm, okay. So you started, uh, uh, experiencing Brown-Forman back in the fifties, you, as you say, when you were a very young girl and such. Uh, what do you remember about, uh, the earlier days of Brown-Forman in the fifties and sixties?

STUBBS: I just, I member-, I remember so vividly how involved my father and my uncle were with the company and how close they were with each other. It was a very dear relationship. And there were probably five years between the two of them. 00:07:00My father was the youngest. And even our families spent an enormous amount of time together. Um, Ina and, uh, Owsley are closest to my age from the Lyons Brown's side. And either I was at their house spending the night for the weekend or she was at my house spending the night for the weekend, and it was, you know, we were taught to be very brotherly and sisterly as a family. It was a bigger family than just the Garvin Brown family or the Lyons Brown family and, or the Frazier family. We, it, they all stuck together. And, and, um, I, I just, I think it was the fact that those two men were really the glue at that point for the 00:08:00company.

VEACH: So, well, you mentioned, uh, uh, before Brown-Forman bought Jack Daniel's. What do you remember about the Jack Daniel's, uh, purchase?

STUBBS: Well, I can remember my father going back and forth a lot. (laughs) And, um, it was a, it was a little deal in those days. It wasn't, I mean, it was such a small company that, uh, for us to get something very special and take it to something even more special, um, was a, was a exciting move, I think. I can remember my father doing a lot of those things. I mean, I remember him going to, uh, Scotland when we brought, uh, Ushers Green Stripe 00:09:00into the, uh, mix. And, um, so, you know, it, Jack Daniel's, that, that was a, a big deal. Uh, I think that my father, my uncle, and the Motlows were friends. And the Motlows just picked Brown-Forman out because that's the kind of company they wanted to have their great whiskey in our mix.

VEACH: So do you think the fact that Brown-Forman was more family owned had a, something to do with that?

STUBBS: I think, I think it had a lot to do with it. And I think it, you know, it was perceived, and I hope still is, that it will continue to be a family owned company. And that, that, that was, I think that was very important.

VEACH: So, during the sixties, you know, the, the bourbon industry 00:10:00started taking a, uh, uh, a downturn as, you know, you had a generation that wasn't drinking whiskey and they were experimenting with new products like tequila and vodka. Uh, do you remember any particular thing about that era?

STUBBS: One of the biggest things I remember most of all was my father coming home from work with about six little pints of whiskey. And they all had a percentage on them. And it was when Brown-Forman was trying to figure out what, what to do with Old Forester besides having it be in Bond 100 Proof. So there were all these different proofs written on the bottles. And they were lined up in our little pantry on 00:11:00the counter to try out--and not for me, because I was so young--but to try out and find out what we were going to end up with. And we ended up with 86 Proof. But that was, that was one of the early memories to me about, uh-oh, we need to make some changes here and we'll start with our own products first.

VEACH: Okay. So, uh, the industry turned around in the, uh, uh, in the late eighties, nineties. It started going from, uh, decline in sales to leveling off and started the present growth that we have here today. Uh, what do you remember about those periods?

STUBBS: I think bringing in, before, before it started to swing 00:12:00up was when we reached out and bought Lenox, Hartmann Luggage, Gorham, a lot of different products that we hoped related to the company and to our products. But, um, we suddenly began to realize that what we really do best are our own products. And times were changing for these other products as well. You know, all of a sudden, coffee cups were no more but mugs were, that kind, type of, um, situation. So, it took us a little time to begin to really realize we needed to work on our own products, our own brands, and that we were a brand 00:13:00company. And that was when we began to slowly get out of these products that didn't relate to us and really push. And I really think we were pioneers in the industry of putting great bourbons back into people's minds. For example, Woodford. Uh, you know, that, all of a sudden, it was a little, a little different than all the bourbons that had been on the market. And it just kind of got people excited. And then we started figuring out how to mix drinks. Um, I mean we had mixed drinks. We had Pussycat a Go-Go back in the seventies, which was a powder mix that reminded you--it was paired with Early Times--reminded you of a whiskey sour. But all of 00:14:00a sudden, young people became interested in mixing our bourbons or drinking them in a special way. You know, just a little neat or a little ice, and it, and it was much more about flavor. So I think that's the beginning of the change of, of our industry.

VEACH: Um-hm. Well, you mentioned Woodford. What do you remember about the, uh, the idea of creating Woodford, Woodford Reserve and rebuilding the distillery?

STUBBS: Well, I'm more, I'm more in tune with the distillery. I know, you know, that was something that we owned and we sold and we bought again. And, and I give Owsley great credit for both sides. He sold it and he bought it back. (laughs) But, um, he was a visionary as 00:15:00far as what, uh, something like a very special boutique distillery could offer. He, he had, he had a plan. And, um, I think it was just a perfect combination to--Old Forester was beginning to kind of lose its identity, unfortunately, along with bourbon in general. And this was just sort of a new way to kick up the industry, so to speak. And we just happened to hit it out of the park with a fabulous bottle and a great-tasting bourbon. Uh, it, it just was a win-win. And then to be in that fabulous location.

VEACH: So, do you think Woodford had a, a, an impact on the other products as well, then?

STUBBS: I, I really sort of do. Um, I, I just think it gave a lift to the bourbon industry. You know, it was a new sparkle. It was a bottle that was so different. It, it was a clean taste and--

VEACH: --um-hm--

STUBBS: --uh, a great location. Just, just kind of took, took our industry into more of what is going on today in the total industry with all the special, uh, bourbons that are coming out. And it's terrific. I mean, every-, everyone helps everyone else.

VEACH: So, you, uh, um, are on the board of directors 00:17:00here at Brown-Forman. Uh, what was that like? You know, what is that like being a, a woman on a board of directors in a, uh, industry that for many years was dominated by men?

STUBBS: Well, it's a huge honor. (laughs) Um, I'd like to think that I've grown into my position. And at first, it was very frightening to me. I mean, everyone on the board was hugely important, beautifully educated. Uh, had been on major boards. But, um, I think Owsley made a decision that he wanted a female and he wanted a family member. And I don't know, I just ended up being that person. Um, 00:18:00it was scary at first. But, uh, I think my passion for the company, uh, has given me a great energy and, and I, and curiosity. So, um, I feel it's, it's been a been a great experience. I hope I've done something for the company. (laughs)

VEACH: So do you think that, uh, uh, not so much your position but, uh, uh, your experience, did it change from when you first started, uh, as a board member until--

STUBBS: --certainly--

VEACH: --more recent?

STUBBS: Certainly.

VEACH: I mean, what way do you think it's changed?

STUBBS: Well, first, first of all, it's changed dramatically in the people that were on the board. I mean, I was by far the youngest. I was the only, only female. Now 00:19:00I'm the oldest. I'm not the only female. Um, and, uh, I'm, I'm also, I've been on the longest at this point. There's no one on the board that was on the board when I came on. So, the whole process is different. They're, we have wonderful independent directors that, um, we've always had good independent directors. Many were local from banks or law firms, chosen by the third generation. Today, these people are extremely, uh, experienced and bring an enormous amount to the board and to the company.

VEACH: So you say there are other, uh, women involved in the board now. Do they, uh, look up to you as, uh, uh, as a mentor in any case or, or, you know, how, how, how does that, uh, uh, experience, uh, fit in?

STUBBS: Well, uh, I would probably guess that Sandra does. Um, Sandra Frazier is from the fifth generation. And, uh, I admire Sandra greatly for what she does in the community. So we have a, a very nice, mutual relationship there. Um, I, Joan Amble, I, I greatly admire. She came as the CFO for, from American Express. Um, but I wouldn't, I, I, I, I would imagine that she looks to me for some of the experience and, and just how a, a family-owned company director handles themselves 00:21:00in a board meeting. There, it, there's a difference.

VEACH: And what do you think that major difference is?

STUBBS: Well, it's keeping in mind that this is a family-owned company. We want it to stay a family-owned company. We always had very good processes of how to handle situations, deal with people. Um, I'd like to think we're a little more thoughtful than a giant corporation owned by a giant corporation. Um, and that's something that's, you know, that's, that's important to keeping the relationship 00:22:00that we make among all of our employees. I think a lot of the employees are here because it's a family-owned company. And they, they like that. I've heard that. So, that sounds, sounds good to me.

VEACH: Okay, um--

STUBBS: --I have to itch my nose.

VEACH: Okay. (laughter)

STUBBS: Thank you. (laughter)

BRITTANY ALLISON: -----------(??)----------

VEACH: I, I think, I think if, think I'm just gonna skip that, because I don't think it's--

UNKNOWN: --okay--

VEACH: --really important to her.

ALLISON: Oh, yes. No, skip the process stuff.

VEACH: Right.

ALLISON: Yeah.

VEACH: Right. Well, actually, there is one question I will ask about the, uh, uh, the process. How, how do you think bourbon has changed over the years while you've been involved here?

STUBBS: Well, I think there is not as much, uh, 100 Proof bourbon. I think it's, uh, I think the proof is, is a positive change probably in, in many ways. Um, the 00:23:00actual product change, I mean, just the fact that it's not as hands-on. It's, it's much more electronically, uh, driven except for the tasting. Um, so I would, I would say those are two of the major--same yeast, same philosophy.

VEACH: Yeah.

STUBBS: But, uh, you know, we're, we're catching, we're staying with modern days.

VEACH: Right. So you were saying that you think that the, uh, the lower proof is a good thing. Uh, why do you think that?

STUBBS: I think that today people who are having a drink are not drinking as much. And, but they still want to have a drink.

VEACH: Um-hm.

STUBBS: And so, having the option of a lower proof is a great marriage for that. Um, I think the young are very conscious in many ways about how they, they drink. And, uh, I think my generation is very conscious about it. And so, if it's a little less proof, it's a little less hit.

VEACH: Um-hm.

STUBBS: And, uh, you know, it just, too many more cars on the road and, uh, just you have to drink responsibly. And that's what we promote. And I think that's one way of doing that.

VEACH: Okay.

ALLISON: Can I interject for a second?

VEACH: Yeah.

ALLISON: And more to say this question, but, um, maybe ask a little bit about marketing to women, I mean, with the lower proof--

STUBBS: --um-hm--

ALLISON: --and ways that you've influenced--

STUBBS: --um-hm--

ALLISON: --as, with your position on the board. I know 00:25:00we're all trying to break in--

STUBBS: --um-hm--

ALLISON: --to the female demographic--

STUBBS: --um-hm--

ALLISON: --a little bit more.

STUBBS: Um-hm.

VEACH: So, that is a good, uh, a good question here is, um, how do you think, uh, uh, your position as a female board member and everything has helped, uh, Brown-Forman market to women? Do, do you think the proof has something to do with that as well?

STUBBS: I think it does. Um, I can't say that my influence has been, uh, important, but I can say that a group of women at Brown-Forman who, for example, created, uh, Little Black Dress Vodka. The purpose of that was to have less proof, to have it have more interesting flavors that women would, it, it would appeal to women, even by the name. Um, and it's, it has been put together by all women at Brown-Forman. And, 00:26:00um, I think it has, I think it's, it has less calories. It's just trying to, uh, think about how something on the lighter side would appeal to women. And that's, that's something we are doing here at, at Brown-Forman.

VEACH: Okay. So, so what do you think makes a good bourbon?

STUBBS: Well, now my father would roll over, because he never felt you should put anything but water or ice in a glass of bourbon. But times are changing. And I love soda water in with lots of ice and my bourbon. So I'm, I'm, I happen to be but I can, uh, branch water's great, too. But soda kind of makes it last longer. (laughs)

VEACH: So what about the bourbon taste itself? Do you look for, you know, one that's rich in caramels and fruity flavors? Uh, what, what kind of flavors are you--

STUBBS: --I love a caramel flavor.

VEACH: Okay.

STUBBS: I really do. Um, I, I had a, um, a bottle of the Old Forester, uh, Signature Bourbon on, on the, um, bar the other night and I thought, Hmm, I'm going to have a little bit of that with some soda water. And I didn't even need a lot. I just had an ounce in a tall glass with soda water. And you could taste the caramel. I mean, it was just, it was a great product.

VEACH: Okay. So, uh, let's talk a little bit more about, uh, uh, the families that you've known, the, the Brown family and some of the other families that you've already mentioned. Um, are there any in particular that, that, uh, you remember as being, 00:28:00uh, uh, distinctive characters, uh, uh, something that you think should be mentioned here?

STUBBS: Well, I've always loved Bobby Nash and who's married to Sissy, uh, whose family was Glenmore and is the sister of Buddy Thompson. And I love Buddy. And those were two distinctive people in my life. I mean, Bobby Nash, as I said, we fox-hunted together for years. And he was always between my parents' age and my age, so there was just this wonderful connection of generations, uh, between Bobby and Sissy. And, um, and, and Buddy is just a, a wonderful person, too. Frank, I didn't 00:29:00know as well, the older brother, but people loved him. And, uh, so I, I would say they are just, you know, outstanding, outstanding people. And, uh, have remained--Bobby's no longer with us, but Buddy is, and, and how lucky we are for that.

VEACH: Is there any particular story about, uh, Bobby Nash that you think you would like to relate here?

STUBBS: Well, Bobby rode a beautiful grey, uh, gelding, I guess. And, um, we would always come in from a big, long ride. And, uh, everybody had steamy horses and, and you were pretty steamy yourself. And we'd come into the lodge. And always on the bar, he would bring the bar and there was 00:30:00always a bottle of Old Forester and a bottle of Yellowstone. And that's just the kind of gentle person that, that he really, he really was. And Buddy, now that they're, they no longer have Glenmore, uh, Buddy said the other night, he said, "I drink nothing but Woodford." So that's a lovely tribute to us and to our friendship, I think.

VEACH: So what about, uh, uh, your father or your grandfather? Uh, do you have any particular memories of them that you would like to relate here?

STUBBS: Well, my grandfather, uh, died when I was, um, seven, I think. But he was the cutest man. He would 00:31:00come every Saturday for lunch. And we, my parents loved polled Shorthorn cattle, as did my Uncle Lyons and my grandfather, Owsley Brown. So he would come to check on the, the cattle and visit with us for lunch. And he always bought a box of caramel candies with the marshmallows inside. And, um, we, that was just, we waited for that box of candy to come. And he had lost two of his fingers in a corn crib accident. And he would always come and take those two little nubs and rub them against you and just so you remembered that 00:32:00he was special and different. But the things that I remember the most about my father and my uncle was their, um, constant rivalry in the cattle industry. And they both loved Shorthorns. And they would each have an auction. They'd buy each other's cattle. They would go to shows and one would win first place, one would win second place. And the next time they'd go, the second place cow was in first place. And I mean, it was just a, it was a really fun kind of experience for all of us. And so we all grew up in that cattle world. And it, it was a real world. 00:33:00It was part of, there was nothing fancy about it. It was, it was, um, it was just very special. Taught you a lot about people and these were two gentle souls that respected that kind of world.

VEACH: Well, you, speaking of gentle souls and such, I know the Brown family has always been very heavily involved in, uh, Louisville charities and, uh, uh, social improvements and such. What were some of your father and your uncle's favorite, you know, uh, causes, so to speak?

STUBBS: You know, they died young. I mean, my father was fifty-seven when he died. And he died really, uh, as head of Brown-Forman. But one of the things that I remembered 00:34:00so vividly was--and it, it, it wasn't particularly local, but he was very involved with Radio Free Europe. And, uh, I can remember him coming home with one of the giant balloons that they used to take food over across the Iron Curtain. And this was something that was very important to him. Um, I would say that my mother and my aunt were the ones who really helped create the community involvement. Um, Mother helped start the March of Dimes here. Um, she was an early starter of the Junior 00:35:00League of Louisville, which was a very involved community, uh, program, volunteer source. Um, and she was involved with early part of Actors Theatre and the ballet and a lot of those things. So, I, I would say my father and my uncle worked very hard here and probably implemented things that I, I just didn't know about.

VEACH: Okay. Well, I think it's safe to say that your father, uh, probably supported your mother's efforts locally one hundred percent and it's, uh, good to hear, uh, some of the--

STUBBS: --right--

VEACH: --things that they--

STUBBS: --he, he, um, one other thing, it was very, education, 00:36:00college education wasn't always his priority, but community, community involvement was. And so, he, he said to me, specifically, he said, "You have been a very fortunate young lady." And he died when I was twenty-two, so this came early. And he said, "You need to give a third back to your community, no matter what you do. That is your obligation." And I've remembered it ever since. I mean, I'm sixty-seven now, so--(laughs)--it's been in my head for a long, long time.

VEACH: Okay. So, um, obviously, then, uh, uh, you had the full support of, uh, both mother and father, then--

STUBBS: --um-hm--

VEACH: --when you entered all the, the boards--

STUBBS: --um-hm--

VEACH: --and such as a young lady.

STUBBS: Um-hm. Um-hm.

VEACH: Uh, very good, uh, uh, community involvement here through the whole family. Uh, do you, uh, find that, uh, true with some of your other cousins and such in the Brown family? Are they equally involved in this type of thing?

STUBBS: They really are. I mean, I, I, they are very involved. Uh, the now fifth generation, uh, is, I mean, they are dedicated to Louisville and to, um, I mean, they're involved with the University of Louisville, with community development. Um, yes, they are. (laughs)

VEACH: Okay.

ALLISON: And before we leave that topic(??), um, you know, you, your father has taught you this tradition of giving and how important it is. What are you doing to impress that upon your son who also works for Brown-Forman and make sure that that tradition 00:38:00carries forward?

VEACH: Okay.

ALLISON: You can restate that if you want. (laughs)

VEACH: Alright(??). (Allison laughs) So, so how are you passing this, uh, uh, tradition of community service and such on to the next generation?

STUBBS: Well, I think at first it was by my doing when they were young and I was involved in their school and a lot of community, uh, projects. So they, they were very well aware that this, this is part of, uh, our life. And I've just made it very clear. I, I have a little saying that I've said to them for a long time. "If, uh, you're productive, I'll be productive. I will pass on to you if you are involved." And it doesn't always have 00:39:00to be work. I mean, my daughter doesn't have a full-time job. She raises three children, but she is also now on the St. Francis School Board and has been very involved with starting the Young Filsonians at the Filson and, and has, has definitely, uh, done her share. And my son right now, for the last four years, has been in Australia for Brown-Forman. But, um, he gathered together a group and they went to Cambodia and built a library for an orphanage. And so it's there. They get it. (laughs)

VEACH: Very good. So, um, how do you think Brown-Forman has changed over the, the decades here, from the fifties to today?

STUBBS: Well, it's obviously changed generations. Um, it's, I would 00:40:00say the biggest change is that it's not being run by a Brown. But I don't see that as a negative. Um, I think that we have, we, we do just what we've always done. We, we run our company well. Um, it's, um, let me think for a second. (laughs)

VEACH: Alright.

STUBBS: Uh. I lost my train of thought. So ask the question one more time. (laughs)

VEACH: Uh, how do you think Brown-Forman has changed over the decades--

STUBBS: --okay--

VEACH: --that you've been involved?

STUBBS: I, I think it's so much bigger. Um, it seems to grow, I mean, we had one period where we had 00:41:00to kind of step back and reduce the size of the company before we could get ourselves together and move forward. But a lot of that had to do with changing our Lenox direction and bringing our products back within, uh, what we do the best. Um, I, I would say the biggest probably is that when I went on the board, our international sales were minute. Now international sales are the bigger part of our sales of our company. Um, so the, that, that, that would be the biggest.

VEACH: Yeah. Well, Jack Daniel's is, uh, uh, right up there with Johnnie Walker as the biggest selling whiskey in the world, uh, which indicates the, the global market that Brown-Forman is now playing 00:42:00in. Um, what are your impressions on this global market?

STUBBS: I think it's just fabulous. I mean, why shouldn't whiskey or bourbon be everywhere? There's no reason why it shouldn't be there. And, uh, we've done a great job with Jack Daniel's. We just have done a terrific job. It's, it's, um, it's our ace in the hole, although I think we're doing a better job now of our other products in bringing them up and getting them out into, uh, the world. Uh, Jack Daniel's is a big help for that. It's a nice piggyback situation. Um, it's, it's, it's the greatest product, uh, I think in, 00:43:00in the, the whiskey world.

VEACH: So, uh, let's talk a little bit more about the different brands. Um, we've mentioned Jack Daniel's being global, and such, and, uh, Old Forester was the brand that Brown-Forman was founded upon.

STUBBS: Um-hm.

VEACH: Uh, what do you see as the, uh, the future of Old Forester?

STUBBS: I think Old Forester has a future and I'm so excited about it. I think it is, it's a product that will be our, one of our special products again. Um, I think that, um, we have some good plans for, for Old Forester, uh, to put it more into, uh, the people, under the people's 00:44:00eyes, so to speak. I'm not sure I'm really able to tell you exactly what that is. But, um, as you can see by the water tower that is right back up there, and it's a beautiful Old Forester bottle, it always was. And, um, so I, I think, I think Old Forester definitely is going to, you're going to see more Old Forester.

VEACH: Well, we've already seen the, uh, the Old Forester Birthday Bourbon.

STUBBS: Um-hm.

VEACH: And, uh, now the Old Forester Single Barrel.

STUBBS: Um-hm.

VEACH: Uh, do you see other versions of Old Forester coming out in the future, then?

STUBBS: I, you know, um, I could see it. Um, it's such a special product that having it as a Single Barrel or having it as something special, uh, rather than blended, um, might 00:45:00not be my choice. But, uh, look at how wonderfully Tennessee Honey has done. And, uh, this is what people are looking for. They want something new and exciting. They, you know, I think this, in this day and age, nobody wants to sit and be complacent. They, they try one thing and they're ready to try something else. So, you know, it could easily. But, um, I'm not really privy to what the future is. But the, it, it is definitely the way all the products are going. Vodka--

VEACH: --um-hm, okay. So--

STUBBS: --Early Times, something--

VEACH: --what about Early Times--

STUBBS: --yeah--

VEACH: --Early, Early Times was the, uh, the first brand that, uh, Brown-Forman purchased.

STUBBS: Um-hm.

VEACH: Uh, purchased it during Prohibition--

STUBBS: --um-hm--

VEACH: --in order to sell the brand for medicinal whiskey. Uh, after Prohibition, up in the, in the 1950s, it was one of the best-selling bourbons in Kentucky. Um, in the 1980s, they turned it into a, uh, Kentucky whiskey here in the United States but continued to sell the bourbon overseas. And just recently, they've brought the bourbon back to the United States. Uh, do you see the brand, uh, company doing anything more with, uh, the Early Times brand?

STUBBS: I do. I, I, you know, this, this all goes back to our brands and brand-building and the fact that we just got so caught up in, uh, Jack Daniel's, Woodford, um, Finlandia, you know, some of those products that we kind of, I think, forgot our real wonderful, special products. And, yes, you will see 00:47:00more Early Times. And it, it has a definite place on the shelf.

VEACH: So how has the, uh, Early Times bourbon been received? Is it doing well to your--

STUBBS: --it's definitely doing better and I think it's going to do, I, I think it's, I think it's definitely, it, you know, it has a certain price range, which is so important. When a lot of the young start drinking, they, they don't have a pocket for Woodford and, uh, or Jack Daniel's. And so, uh, you have to start somewhere. And, and Early Times is a great flavor. It's an easy bourbon. Um, so I, I, I think it definitely has a place.

VEACH: So you mentioned Fin-, Finlandia and, uh, Brown-Forman does have 00:48:00brands other than just their bourbon brands.

STUBBS: Um-hm.

VEACH: Uh, do you see them, uh, playing a major role in Brown-Forman's future or do you--

STUBBS: --I definitely do--

VEACH: --think that--

STUBBS: I definitely do. Um, Finlandia is a wonderful vodka. I, I am a, I'm a vodka drinker, uh, in the summer months. And it just is a, it's a great vodka. Um, we just came back from Russia and met with, uh, Coke Bottling, who are our distributors there. And, uh, they are very excited about what goes on with Finlandia in Russia. And it is doing wonderfully well. And they're thrilled to have Jack 00:49:00Daniel's come in as well. So, you know, it, it's, Finlandia is a, is a great product.

VEACH: So do you think these products being introduced into new markets helps your bourbon brands in the long run?

STUBBS: Oh, definitely. Definitely. And I, and I think that, um, our bourbon brands help in the vodka or in the Herradura, uh, Tequila. Um, it just depends on, you know, how, but everybody helps each other. It's, it's, it, it's a lot easier to have the varieties of products, uh, to bounce off of each other.

VEACH: So, with the emergence of the premium bourbons such as a Woodford, and, um, such, do you see that, uh, uh, having 00:50:00a major influence then on the company as a whole, uh, in their other products, not just the bourbons but the other products as well?

STUBBS: Tell me exactly, I'm not exactly--

VEACH: --okay, with, with Woodford being, you know, your super premium product, are you--

STUBBS: --right--

VEACH: --seeing that the, uh, you know, the fact that you now have a super-premium bourbon, are you going to see this type of influence in your other products? Are you going to--

STUBBS: --well, we do--

VEACH: --start seeing--

STUBBS: --I mean, Herradura has, you know, some very fine tequilas and, uh, Don Eduardo is another one of ours that is very special. And, um, uh, we're working on a vodka that is more of the high-end. Um, I think having a product that you can cover all the different, um, qualities--or not qualities, the, the, 00:51:00I don't know--(laughs)--um, but if you, it just the different grades of--it's like a wine. You--

VEACH: --right--

STUBBS: --can have a, you know, a hundred dollar a bottle of wine or you can have a ten dollar bottle of wine. And we can do the same thing with, with our products, um, spread across the board.

VEACH: Okay, and let's look at the, uh, uh, the other bourbon community out there. Do you have, uh, uh, relationships out there with, uh, people in the other companies on the same level, you know, other, uh, bourbon directors for other companies and such? 00:52:00Uh, what, what is your relationship with the other companies?

STUBBS: Well, I mean, I, I grew up with Julian Van Winkle and Kitty Van Winkle and Sally Van Winkle, so, and, and Chenault, uh, McClure. Um, so that, that is the Pappy Van Winkle side of the family, uh, or the Stitzel-Weller side, and, and, um, so I, I would be very comfortable, um, visiting with any of them. Um, I know Bill Samuels. I knew his father. And, um, we don't really see each other that much. He's busy man with Maker's Mark. But we definitely have a, you know, a, a relationship. Uh, the Heaven Hill family, I mean, you, you just sort of, you know, you know each other. Uh, whether you see each other very much is, is 00:53:00another thing. But sometimes you'll sit on a board with one of them or, uh, you know, a community board.

VEACH: So what do you think your legacy's going to be here with Brown-Forman?

STUBBS: Hmm. Well, maybe opening up the board to women. Um, and then opening maybe the company to women in, uh, a stronger way. Um, I think that the women in, in the Brown-Forman community are strong and capable, um, thoughtful. I think having a balance of men and women in a room, uh, allows 00:54:00a different flavor of how the an-, same answer comes out. So I like to think that, that that's been my, my biggest gift. Um, I'd also like to think that I've helped be a part of the family and making sure that they really understand why they want to keep this a family company. There are many good reasons. How sad it would be to say, "Well, what is your family involved in?" "Well, we used to be involved in Brown-Forman." And that isn't what I want to hear.

VEACH: Right, so we about ready for a break, you think?

ALLISON: Yeah, let's take a break.

VEACH: Cause I've come to the end of my questions here.

STUBBS: Shew.

ALLISON: Yeah, -----------(??)----------

VEACH: So, so how've I been doing? (laughs)

ALLISON: You've been very good and--(all laugh)--Dace, think you've been very charming and sweet. And perfect.

VEACH: I hope I haven't been too hard on you.

STUBBS: No, no, no.

ALLISON: Very likable. (Dace laughs) Yeah, if you'll have a couple more questions and I know, Joanna, you know, will have some, too, o if you all want to take a break or whatever's most comfortable for you is fine.

VEACH: Yeah.

STUBBS: Just--

VEACH: --I figured, uh, we've been at it for about an hour, so I figure--(laughs)--she might be ready for--

STUBBS: --um-hm--

ALLISON: --okay--

VEACH: --a little drink of water or--

ALLISON: --sure--

STUBBS: --yeah, cool water.

VEACH: Okay, when she went, so--

ALLISON: --you're going to stop for a minute?

VEACH: Yes.

[Pause in recording.]

VEACH: Okay, let's, let's talk a little bit about the, uh, the corporate policy here at, uh, Brown-Forman, and, uh, how you think the family influence has changed the, uh, the policy or makes it different from other corporate policies.

STUBBS: Well, you know, it's interesting. Family members, uh, have some pretty strict rules. And they've been reinf-, they were started 00:56:00by my father and my uncle, but they were restated as a constitution by the fifth generation, my children's generation. And the deal is they have to have a second degree, and preferred in business, to be able to come and work for the company. And it puts--for a while, actually, Owsley and Bill Street didn't feel you had to get that second degree, even though they did, handily. Um, they felt Brown-Forman could do the training. But it's thought now that, and, and definitely so, you just have to have another degree. You have to have that experience of more education, not 00:57:00starting at the company too early, just, just being involved, uh, in lots of different corporate thoughts before you come to Brown-Forman. So, it's always been that family members had to have two degrees. But it's now really enforced by that generation through their own constitution.

VEACH: Okay, so do you see this, uh, um, applying to other, non-family members on the corporate level as well?

STUBBS: You know, I, I do in a way. I don't think it's a must. And I think a lot of people tend to, if they're lucky enough, to come in on the ground floor and then go to night school and get a business degree at Bellarmine or UofL or whatever. But I think it 00:58:00does them well to have that other degree. Um, Brown-Forman has a very good training program.

VEACH: Yeah. Brown-, Brown-Forman's well known in the community as being a place that will, uh, uh, help you advance--

STUBBS: --that's right--

VEACH: --uh, through their training programs and, and such, and, uh, also through the, uh, the, help paying for college education--

STUBBS: --yeah--

VEACH: --and such. Uh, is that something that you think is, uh, due to the family, uh, owned part of the business, that they care more about education and such?

STUBBS: Education is huge. I mean, you know, we all know that. (laughs)

VEACH: Yeah.

STUBBS: Uh, we all learn differently. Um, I was, I just wasn't the type of child that you could put in a 00:59:00desk and say this is what you're going to have to do. Consequently, that's how my father and others started St. Francis Goshen, but, and ultimately the high school. But education has always been a huge part of our community. I mean, we, we have great diversity of schools in Louisville for public schools to private schools. So, and Brown-Forman plays a big part in all those schools.

VEACH: Okay. So, um, how do you feel the, uh, uh, Kentucky Bourbon Trail and bourbon tourism has, uh, uh, changed life here at Brown-Forman?

STUBBS: Well, I don't know that it's just Brown-Forman, although I know that Woodford is the most toured of all of the bourbon houses, so to speak, distilleries. Um, I just helped, uh, two 01:00:00very good friends from Connecticut come down and, uh, be a part of the Bourbon Trail, the Kentucky Bourbon Trail. And they loved it. I mean, these were bourbon drinkers for many years and loved all the different places they went. They said every single distillery was different. And, uh, we got them a little opportunity at one of the great horse farms. And, and, uh, they loved staying at 21C in Louisville and having that experience. And they went to, uh, Kentucky-type restaurants with Kentucky-type food. So I think people are really thinking about Kentucky. It's, it's really gotten 01:01:00all the restaurants to kind of open up their minds and create bourbon dishes. And, uh, so it's, it's, I think it's been a great thing for Kentucky.

VEACH: So, um, just to follow up on that a little bit, then, you think then that, that if the tourism is having a big effect on, uh, on the bourbon industry as a whole, uh, do you see Brown-Forman expanding upon that in any way? Maybe opening a tour, uh, in their, oh, you know, Brown-Forman Distillery in Shively or maybe even purchasing a new distillery and building something, or what do you see, what do you see the, the tourism role, uh, in Brown-Forman's going to be in the future?

STUBBS: Well, obviously, the Woodford, uh, tour is, is key. 01:02:00Um, I, Brown-Forman is part of Whiskey Row. And I can see something going on in Whiskey Row. But it hasn't really been talked about yet. But I think that to have something downtown in Louisville would be, you know, that could go alongside of the bat museum and, uh, the, um, KMAC, Kentucky arts and crafts. I think it would be a great thing to have something very local, because all the others are out. You have to drive an hour, drive an hour and a half, or whatever, to get to the others. And it's a long day. So if we could do some boutique type of thing in Louisville, I think it would be a, a great, uh, asset to our industry 01:03:00and to the whole industry and to, um, the community.

VEACH: So, uh, what advice would you have for, uh, other women that are in, wanting to get involved in the spirits industry?

STUBBS: Go for it. (laughs) Absolutely. Um, there is, there is no reason why a woman could not be a part of the spirit industry. It's not, it's not a man world. It was. But so many things were a men's, were men's worlds. Men's, we're a man, man's world. But, um, today, I, I just think women are, are equal to men and they just bring a, a, a little different touch. And if you can have the balance of the women in that community or organization, you're going to have a much better rounded end product. 01:04:00 So, go for it.

VEACH: Any particular advice on, though, what they should do to prepare themselves to, to get such a job?

STUBBS: Well, be well-educated. Maybe have some experience outside the industry or get in on the bottom. And work hard, hard to get up. I, uh, have a saying that I think of for Brown-Forman that is, uh, "You work like a woman and think like a woman." And it really will get you everything you need to be part of the program.

VEACH: Okay. So let's go back and, uh, uh, what are your reflections on, uh, uh, Owsley Brown and, uh, uh, other 01:05:00Brown family members, the fact that you lost your father when you were so young? Uh, just, just reflect a little bit more on that.

STUBBS: Well, losing your father when you're twenty-two, and I was, I was, I've been a better adult than I have, that I was a child. So it's very sad for me to not have him see me as a successful adult. And I, and I feel like I've, I've had some nice successes. Um, and I often will say, "Did you, did you see that, Dad?" (laughs) But, um, because we were so close as cousins, there were nine of us in our generation. And I was very close with Lee. Um, and he was a great part of 01:06:00Brown-Forman. And, uh, I was closer age-wise to, uh, Owsley, so we kind of grew up as children as well. But I've always thought of them more as brothers, and Ina as a sister, than as cousins. Um, I miss Owsley. Boy, do I miss Owsley. Uh, he really gave me a chance, um, to be a part of Brown-Forman and to succeed. And, and, uh, to not be able to thank him every day personally, uh, is, is rough. But, um, he really gave Brown-Forman an energy to 01:07:00look outside of America. And, uh, gave us permission to look outside and to really develop our company, uh, outside of America. So, I, I would say that was his real swansong and his gift. Uh, he was an amazing community giver of time and money. Just amazing. And I think that he did that with Christy, his wife, and has passed that on to his children. And it's, that is just an am-, a wonderful thing for 01:08:00this community. Uh, that family is, has really poured their energy back to their community.

VEACH: So, uh, let's talk about some other themes here. Kentucky's well known for its bourbon. Why do you think that is?

STUBBS: Well, I think we've done a great job of promoting a great product. (laughs) Um, Kentucky is horses and bourbon. Um, it's a beautiful state. Very varied. Uh, you know, one part of the state is coal country. Another part 01:09:00is horse country with rolling hills. And another part is ridges and gorges. I mean, it, and then the beautiful lakes. I mean, it, it has the topography that could really appeal to anyone. But its soul is bourbon and our horses. So I think that because of blending the two, with Churchill Downs and Keeneland, and, and, uh, it's, it's sort of put us on the map as, as something really special. It really doesn't exist anywhere else. Um, so.

VEACH: So, do you think that has a lot to do with the popularity of the bour-, of the Kentucky Bourbon Trail?

STUBBS: Oh, I definitely do. Um, and when we, we 01:10:00put together for this group of friends the bou-, uh, they went to Churchill Downs, went through the museum there. They blended their trip, I mean, they, they went to five distilleries. (laughs) But they went to, you know, they also did the bat museum, Churchill Downs, they went to KMAC, they, uh, went to Three Chimneys. I mean, they really, uh, had an experience, uh, and then they spent the night with us at our farm, and had a real Kentucky experience. And that, that's what people are looking for, it is something that has a little bit more than just one of those products. And, and I think we do it really well here.

VEACH: Alright, let's, let's talk a little bit about longevities, because, you know, it seems like when a person gets involved with the 01:11:00bourbon industry and the distilling industry as a whole, it, it becomes their life work. Uh, uh, they never really change. You know, why, why do you think that is?

STUBBS: Well, it's an art. And do you give up art? No. (laughs) Once an artist, always an artist.

VEACH: Hmm.

STUBBS: And, um--

UNKNOWN: --excuse me, I'm sorry, can you do that paper again. I'm hearing your papers.

VEACH: Oh, okay.

STUBBS: Um, so I think it, of it, it's, it's an artistic, uh, product. It, it has to be, um, very carefully put together. It's, it's flavor, it's recipe. Um, it, it just, you know, it's, I'm, I'm kind, I'm getting off of the--(laughs)--I 01:12:00can't remember the whole question. (laughter) Meh-eh! (laughs)

ALLISON: Something like if -----------(??) all the master distiller stuff. I mean, that's kind of geared towards--

VEACH: --yeah--

ALLISON: --when we're interviewing the master distillers--

VEACH: --right--

STUBBS: --okay--

ALLISON: --like, so it's up to you--

VEACH: --right.

STUBBS: Perfect.

VEACH: But I, I, I was just curious as to--

ALLISON: --yeah--

STUBBS: --um-hmm--

VEACH: --her, her opinion and why do you think people stay in the industry--

STUBBS: --um-hm--

VEACH: --for so long?

STUBBS: Um-hm. Well, I think they stay in because it becomes a passion. It's just a, it's a product, it's a recipe, and, and it's something very, a beautiful bottle or a just, or history, or the, the idea that, oh my goodness, this has been in this gorgeous barrel for all these years and now it's in this bottle and look at the light. And it, it's, it's, it's an art.

VEACH: So you think, then, that, uh, uh, it appeals to, uh, their artistic side of their, their, their creative side--

STUBBS: --um-hm--

VEACH: --as well as their--

STUBBS: --um-hm, um-hm, I do. Well, it is, I mean, 01:13:00it takes a master distiller to really create the perfect product, whether it's going to be a new one like Woodford and Sonoma-Cutrer or Woodford Malt or Woodford and, uh, Rye. I mean, they're, you know, it, it's, it's, it takes, takes somebody to really understand the product.

VEACH: Well, speaking of master distillers, um, let's talk a little bit about the evolution of the master distiller. You know, hundred years ago, you really didn't have people calling themselves "master distillers." They were just distillers. And it's really only been within the last thirty years or so that you start seeing the term "master distiller" pop up and being used and, and they've really become a bit of a, uh, the rockstar of the industry. Uh, what, what do you think of this evolution?

STUBBS: I think it's great. I think that it, it helps sell the product. I mean, it's obviously a, a, you know, they're used to help advertise it, whether it's at the company, at the distillery, or in an ad or whatever. And, and, and they are passionate. They are, they know their product. I mean, they, they're not just picked out of a, uh, group of people to, to do that job. They have to be trained and they have to have had experience in flavors and, and what's good and, and I think they help mastermind what the future holds for that product.

VEACH: (coughs) Excuse me. So what do you see the role of the master distiller in the future in?

STUBBS: I just think they're going to help us come up 01:15:00with more, uh, ideas of, um, what might be the new evolution of Woodford or Old Forester or Early Times or Jack Daniel's. They, they are constantly, hopefully, thinking ahead of us.

VEACH: So let's go back to this theme of artisanship and, uh, uh, in bourbon. Um, what do you think is the, uh, the overall role of artisanship and, uh, craft distillery here at, uh, distilling here at Brown-Forman?

STUBBS: (pause) Okay, you're going to have to be a little bit more specific.

VEACH: Well, I'm thinking along the lines, you know, how do 01:16:00you think that the, uh, uh, that the artisanship in the product has, uh, uh, influenced Brown-Forman in the type of products that they're coming out with?

STUBBS: Well, I, I think really probably Woodford was the beginning of artistic bourbon and, uh, for us. And I think that once we realized that we could blend flavors, uh, to create interest in the new flavors, um, really helps promote even just the basic Woodford. But you've, you have all these other different--at Christmastime, we have a different, uh, Woodford bottle that comes out that once it's 01:17:00sold, it's gone. And this is, it's been a good thing and not always a good thing, because some of them were hugely popular and because it was really set up that that was the only, uh, time we were going to sell that combination, that was a little disappointing in some, some respects. Uh, I know that the Woodford and Sonoma-Cutrer, um, which means it was blended, it was put into a Sonoma-Cutrer, uh, barrel, um, as well, and it gave off some flavors of the, um, Sonoma, uh, chardonnay, and it was a huge success. But we, you know, we've done that, so. (laughs) Uh, but anyway.

VEACH: Yeah.

STUBBS: Did I answer? (laughs)

VEACH: Yeah, I--I think it's--

STUBBS: --a little bit?

VEACH: So you see, then, the artisanship of tho-, these type products continuing in the future. Do you think it'll expand, uh, even past the, the Woodford? You know, do you see, uh--

STUBBS: --oh, I do. I do. I know that, yes, I do. Um, and we're always, I mean, we're, we're just now coming out with new Woodford things, but I think probably Early Times will have some, some flavors. Um, probably Old Forester, as we talked earlier, but not, you know, not sure. I mean, who knows? They're, they're, I think all kinds of things going on back in the chemistry department--

VEACH: --um-hm--

STUBBS: --(laughs)--and, uh, that we don't even know about.

VEACH: Okay. So is there anything else that you think that, uh, is important that I haven't asked you? Uh, something that you would like to say that you would like future generations to, to know?

STUBBS: I think the important thing to know is that this 01:19:00is, even though it's a bigger company, it's a great company. Uh, you don't have to work for Brown-Forman to be a part of the family and a part of the company. There are things that you can do outside that, uh, philanthropically or, um, just, just being a part of this company and family and, uh, is enriching, I think. Um, we have a fabulous sixth generation coming along and we've started them out at age five to come down to Brown-Forman and, and learn about philanthropy, learn about how the, what 01:20:00makes Brown-Forman. And instead of having a drink afterwards, they have an ice cream social. And, uh, they're learning at an early, early age about their cousins. I mean, some of them don't even live here and they come. So, it's just, it's, it's thinking, thinking family and, and understanding what a rich, uh, place Brown-Forman really is.

[Pause in recording.]

STUBBS: --think a woman should think like a man and work like a man. And I thought, No, no, no, no. (laughter) That, that isn't, that isn't how it works at all. And so I just turned it around to be my own. (laughs)

ALLISON: I love that.

VEACH: Yeah.

ALLISON: I think that's wonderful.

[End of interview.]