Interview with C. Derek Reed, December 10, 2013

ARD: Hi. It's December 10, 2013. This is Constance Ard. And I'm here with Judge, uh, C. Derek Reed, at the LaRue County Courthouse, in LaRue County, Kentucky. And this is an interview for the Legacy of African American Judges in Kentucky. Thank you, very much, Judge Reed, for taking the time to, to meet with us and answer our questions. Uh--

REED: --glad to be here.

ARD: Thank you. So we're going to start with the easy stuff, your early life. So if you could, just tell us when and where you were born.

REED: Okay. (clears throat) I was born in Glasgow, Kentucky, uh, TJ Samson Community Hospital. Uh, I was a preemie. And I was a born a couple months early--uh, couldn't wait a few more hours. I would have been a New Year--New Year's baby. Instead, I was born New Year's Eve, 1958. Uh, my mother and father was, uh, Robert and Etta Reed. And, uh, I was the firstborn child of, uh--I have three siblings, uh, one brother and two sisters. I'm the eldest. I grew up on a 00:01:00ru--rurally, in a rural farm, in Hart County, Kentucky, near a place called Uno. Uh, we had a s--a farm there. And, uh, my father and my uncle and my, uh, grandfather all ran the farm. They also had a business. Uh, my family co--has a business background. And, uh, I guess it goes back to sort of a number of first. Uh, my family owned a trucking company. Uh, I want you to imagine, in the mid-sixties, a African American trucking company in south central Kentucky. Um, uh, it was challenging. But my family, uh, did real well, uh, was moderately successful in that business. Uh, we--I stayed on the farm, and, uh, really enjoyed doing, working on the farm. As a matter of fact, I end up buying a farm 00:02:00in LaRue County, years and years later. But that's where I grew up. And, uh, left for--high school. I'd just turned seventeen. Uh, I, uh, finished Hart County High School at sixteen. I turned seventeen the last day of the--December 31, two thou--uh, two thousand, uh--uh, 1975--I'm sorry--began my career at West Kentucky University in January 10, two thousand--uh, what--1976. So I was just turned seventeen, way too young to be a college student. And finished my career at Western, uh, went to law school, Washington University in St. Louis, came back to Kentucky, because I wanted to come back to this state, practiced law in Louisville for a number of years, took the bench, 2001, having been appointed by 00:03:00Judge--by Governor [Paul] Patton, and on the bench ever since. You know, the thing I remember about my childhood was that--it was a relatively routine childhood. Uh, I remember this. We didn't have running water, initially. As a matter of fact, we--have running water until 1967, which, I think I was eight or nine years of age. And I remember having to get water out of a cistern and having to dump feces into a honey pot, into a, uh, an outhouse. But, you know--and I guess that was pretty common. And no one ever said I was poor. And didn't think that we were poor. Then we did get running water. And we finally graduated to a phone, first a party line, which means four or five families share the same line. And you can listen in, if you want to listen in. We never 00:04:00did. And then later, a phone. And we moved. Uh, seventy-eight is traumatizing for me, because we sold the farm--I was nineteen. The farm was sold. And, uh, my family moved to town. That was okay, because by then I left--I was at school anyway. But still, I was haunted by not having the farm I grew up on. And matter of fact, years later I try to buy the farm back, and had a deal to purchase the farm, s--had a contract, brought the contract--and the down payment--for him to sign that day, and he refused to come out and decided not to sell the farm--uh, probably, in the end, a, a blessing for me, because he had overpriced the farm, because he knew I wanted it so badly. Lesson: Never, never, never show how much you want something. Anyway.

ARD: (laughs) Uh--

REED: --uh, end up coming to LaRue County, because I wanted my children to be raised in a rural atmosphere. I think it benefited me and I think it benefit them, as well. And so we moved to, uh--and my p--my wife's parents--my wife's 00:05:00from Glasgow. And her parents are elderly and ill. And so we wanted a halfway point between Louisville and, uh, Glasgow. And so we chose LaRue County, Magnolia, and moved to Magnolia. Bought the farm in ninety-two, uh, built the house there, moved in January of ninety-three. The sad thing about the move is that we moved five days after the death of her mother. Uh, her mother took ill. As a matter of fact, we took her in to the hospital on my birthday. And she died a few days later. Uh, her father had been very ill--

M1: --uh--

REED: --had progressive diabetes, lost, lost his legs. And they--he was on dialysis. And when the dialysis quit working, of course, we knew he would pass. He passed that same year, in December. So within a year period, my wife lost both her parents. So that first year was very traumatic for everyone. Uh, but I 00:06:00think it formed so many things inside of me. Uh, I traveled down the road, for a number of years thereafter. In 2001--uh, actually, I was on business, in, uh--I think I was in Chicago, either Chicago or Cleveland. I'm not sure which city. My wife--I w--call home every night. "How are the kids doing? How things going?" So I call home. She said, "I heard a strange thing today." And I said, "Wh--what did you hear?" She says, "There's this crazy rumor about you." I said, "What kind of rumor?" She said, "Someone asked me today, uh, were you gonna become the County Attorney, for LaRue County." I said, "What are you talking about?" She said, "It is really crazy." I said, "I have no idea what you're talking about. And obviously, they don't either."

M1: Uh--

REED: --so a few days later, I was, uh, walking across the street and I ran into the County Attorney, Danny Rock. At that ti--

ARD: --uh--

REED: --he was the County Attorney. Mr. Rock say, "Hey, you got a minute? Can I talk to ya?" I said, "Sure." So we walked up to his office. He let me know--he 00:07:00said, uh, "Looks like Judge Bonrad (??)" --Judge Bonrad's my predecessor-- "is gonna be retiring and that I'm gonna, I'm gonna become the district judge. Would you be interested in my job, as County Attorney?" I said, "Tell me what the job is." Because I was really tired. The trip to Louisville every morning wasn't bad at all. But you'd be so tired coming home, you'd forget--from you go--from the time you got to Shepherdsville until you got off the interstate in E-town [Elizabethtown, Kentucky], you wouldn't remember driving that far. So I knew that was dangerous. And as years went by, I wasn't spending any time at home with my children. And, uh, I was gonna, uh, consider any offer. Because I just didn't want that road anymore. So, uh, I talked to Danny Rock that day. Danny explained the position to me, what it entailed. I came downstairs. I ran into the Chief, the, uh, Chief Judge Executive, Tommy Turner. So Judge Turner says, "You got a moment?" And I said, "Sure," walked in the office. He said, "Judge 00:08:00Bonrad's gonna retire." And I said, "I just talked to Danny Rock." He said, "Well, that's my, my decision. Are you interested?" And I said, "Sure, I'm interested." Uh, a few days later, I happened to be in courtroom, in the circuit court. Even though the circuit court was across the street, most of the time they have circuit court, in uh, in the district courtroom, because it's more convenient. And we did a first call on a number of, number of things. I happened to have a contract with the Department of Transportation and we had a case that was called. And I ran into Dale Morris. Dale Morris was a employee of the public transportation, at that time. He's now County Attorney. So Dale and I were talking. And he was telling me about--uh, that he was looking at the judgeship, as well. Um, and I said, "Well, that's wonderful." And I explained to him--and I said, "Well, you know, I do--I never met you before but good luck to you." I 00:09:00said "I know that, uh, there's a couple other people seeking the position. And good luck to you." He start telling me about he--and his difficulty with Mr. Rock. Now, Mr. Danny Rock is the County Attorney, had been--I think served two terms, three terms. But before his term, Mr. Morris had been the County Attorney. And they had a heated battle. And in that heated battle, Mr. Morris lost by a few votes. But to that--there was still a lot of, uh, residual animosity, as a result of that election--and, uh, to the point where I said, "I, I, excuse me for a moment. I think I need to, I need to go the men's room."

M1: S--

REED: --I went, uh, went outside, and ran right into the--

M1: --did y--

REED: --the County Judge Executive, Mr. Turner. And he come up to the side. He said, "Can I talk to you for a moment?" I said, "Sure." Uh, he s-- "It doesn't look like Danny can get the, get the job."

M1: Uh, s--

REED: -- "Why not?" "Uh, well, I jus--I don't know. I just don't think he can get it." And so, "Okay." "I'm very concerned that there's gonna be--that, uh, the other guy who's running's going to get the job, there's gonna be a 00:10:00adversarial relationship, and things just will h--grind to a halt." And I said, "Who are you referencing?" And he told me. I said, "Yeah. I c--I can see that." So. Because I just left the room. And he asked me would I consider the job. And I said, "I can't do that. I've already thrown my support to Danny. I gave him my commitment." I said, "I cou--I couldn't--unless I spoke with him first." Uh, he said, "Well, he can't get the job, uh. I'd like you consider, uh, putting your name in the hat for judge." Uh, I said, "Okay." I went home, told my wife, really uneasy about the situation, prayed, told myself this is the reason why I couldn't--that was the reason why I couldn't. I had maybe ten or fifteen solid reasons why I don't think I should run for judge, uh, put my name in the hat. And it was really strange. Because everything that I said--every time I gave myself a reason why I shouldn't or couldn't, uh, something would happen, and t--to make that go away. Finally, it was to the point, it was so weird, I finally 00:11:00said, "God, what do you want from me?" (Ard laughs) I mean, it was that weird. Because it was like--it wasn't just one thing or just two things. Every time. It was eight or nine, ten things in a row. And each time, like something magically would happen to make that particular reason go away--to the point it was kinda creepy. And I said, "Wha--what do you want from me?" Anyway, I talked to my wife. And I made the difficult call to Danny, and told Danny what Judge Turner had told me. Matter of fact, I asked Judge Turner, "Can I speak to Danny ab--?" He said, "I wish you would. So I told Danny that, "I understand you can't get the job." And then, uh, Danny said, "Well, if I can't get it, I want you to have it." I said, "Okay. I appreciate that." I had received some--a call from members of the bar in Hart County, uh, senior members of the bar, J.D. Craddock, who's a local-practice attorney, had bee--was the County Attorney, and another guy named J--uh, Jon Goodman, who'd been practicing for years and years and years. And they were the two most senior members of the bar in Hart County. They both indicated they wanted me to run. And so I finally, the last day--the last day, I 00:12:00put my name in the hat. And, of course, the governor--uh, the, the, their--a committee submits three names to the governor and the governor will select from those three names. So I was one of the three names that were selected. And as a matter of fact, it's kinda strange. I was in circuit court--to go back a little further, I was actually in morning court. On Monday morning, I was in Hart County District Court and Judge Bonrad had been ill. And I was in court that morning. I had a client had both the afternoon docket and morning docket, afternoon court being juvenile court, morning court being, uh, district, uh, criminal. And my client didn't show up for the nine o'clock court. Judge Bonrad said, "Well, have him here next time." The guy shows at twelve o'clock, for the one o'clock hearing. He'd forgotten about the nine o'clock. I go back in to Judge Bonrad's chambers. Judge Bonrad, I told him that "You know, my client got mixed up on his time. He is here. He'll be here at one o'clock." And, uh, I saw Judge Bonrad laying on the ba--on his back. And I know he'd been very ill. And I 00:13:00saw him on his back and his cowboy boots poi--cowboy boots up in the air. And I thou--Oh, man, he's, uh, kicked off on me. Uh, "Judge Bonrad, are you okay?" "Yeah, I'm fine. My back's bothering me." I said, "Okay." So he said "You got a minute?" I said, "Sure." He said, "Well, word is you might get the appointment." I said, "I hadn't heard that," which I hadn't. And he's, uh, "Have y--? If ya get the appointment, have you selected your staff yet?" I said, "No, I have not given it any thought." And he said, "I'd like to suggest Mrs. Barker, who's currently--you just met. She's--would have been my assistant. She's really, really dedicated. I think she wants to continue. And would you consider Bob Rowe as your Trial Commissioner?" Well, I knew Mr. Rowe, because he and I went to high school together. And I said, "I certainly would." Uh, the very next day was a Tuesday and we had circuit court that day. And I actually had a court case and the Honorable Judge Larry Ranks (??) was the judge. And so I receive a call, from the Clerk's Office. "Mr. Reed, we need to talk to you, so that you get a call"--

M1: --uh--

REED: --uh, "There's a call for you." I said, "For me?" She said, "Yes, from the governor's office." And, uh, I said, "Okay." So I picked the phone up--uh, "This is Derek Reed." And, uh, my ol--my ex-law-partner is Associate General Counsel in the governor's office. And, uh, he identified himself. And he says, uh, "Judge Reed, congratulations." I said--I said, uh, "What?" Then he told me. He said, "You've been selected by Judge Patton--uh, uh, Governor Patton as the, as the judge." I said, "Okay." So I went back to Judge Ranks, explained to him what had happened. I said, "Now what's next?" And Judge Ranks said, "Well, I was given thirty days to wrap up my practice." I said, "Okay. Tha--that works. I can, I can get letters out to cli--let 'em know they have to find counsel. That gives me the time to file motions on their behalf, withdraw, etc., etc. And I think I can get it done when--that, uh, period of time." So I was excited. The 00:15:00next day, I was at home. I didn't go anywhere, waiting for word what was next. And, uh, I showered, put some old farm clothes on, uh, hadn't shaved. But I had showered and I combed my hair and brushed my teeth and, OK, let's just see wha--what's next. I'm expecting a call from the governor's office. I guess they're gonna give me wha--what's next. That's n--that didn't happen. At about 8:15 or so, I received a call from Judge Bonrad. And, uh, you have to know Judge Bonrad. He's very forceful guy, testy, just--uh, he's go--he's got this gravelly voice. He says, "Ju--this is Ju--Bonrad. Uh, Judge Reed, uh, you nee--where are you at?" I said, "Excuse me?" "You're supposed to be here. It's court today. It's Wednesday." I said, uh, "Well," he's, "I've got a courtroom full of people. And m--when you were appointed, my powers expire." So I found out about 8:20 or 00:16:00so that I was--so I was--I remember having to shave and I was so nervous I cut my chin open. I was bleeding like a stuck--I was bleeding all over the place. I had a piece of cotton right here. And I put my clothes on. Luckily, I had showered and all that. All I had to do was, you know, sha--I shave--cut my chin open. Uh, when I got to the courtroom, uh, pulled outside. And Ch--Judge Executive was outside, waved me to park here. And that was Judge Bonrad's spot. It was, uh, reserved for the district judge. And I par--parked there, and thinking, Oh, Jesus. He swore me in. And at about, uh, quarter to nine, thereabouts, I took the bench. Now, Judge Bonrad was very, very kind to me and he was a great mentor. And, uh, I felt I could rely upon him. And he actually stood with me. And he pretty much did it and I watched how he did it. So, you kn--actually, I didn't have time to be nervous. I was nervous thinking about it but I didn't have time to be nervous. The very next day was civil court, in Hart 00:17:00County, my home county. Tha--and I had nobody there that day except me. So that day, I was very nervous. So it did get better. But, uh, I'll never forget that day. Uh, the first year of my judgeship was a bittersweet, bittersweet type scenario. Maybe a week after I had, uh, been selected as judge, I found out from my dad that he had cancer, uh, bladder cancer. And probably ten days after I took the bench, he had an operation. The operation was to remove his bladder. Uh, when I talked to the doctor, the doctor said, "You know, bladder cancer's pretty c--curable. And there's about a 85 percent cure rate, if it's--if the bladder's--contained within the bladder. But there's about a 97 percent 00:18:00mortality rate, if it's moved outside the bladder. It's a very aggressive form of cancer. We, uh, we just don't know until we get in and take his bladder out." And I never forget. My father was on the table for o--over five hours. And when he came back, I saw the surgeon's face, when he come back to the room and I knew, without him saying a word. He said, "I'm going to have to refer your dad to an oncologist. It's outside the bladder." S--okay. And from that April until my father's death, which was in February, it was slow but sure. So that first year of my--was bittersweet, because I watched my father just fade. I watched him fade, from a very robust businessman to, to nothing. And he finally died Va--Valentine's Day--

ARD: --uh--

REED: --2012--so two thousa--2002. Years do go by. But my years on the bench 00:19:00have been marred by--marked by a lot of ups and downs. The highs are so good, so great. And sometime there are lows. Uh, I'd been on the bench about six months, I learned a very valuable lesson, follow your instincts. I had a young lady in Hart County wh--who, uh, had a boyfriend. And the boyfriend had been charged with assault, fourth-degree involving domestic violence. She was nineteen. He was incarcerated on the assault charge. He qualified for release. My gut says, "Don't let this guy out. Don't let him out." The nineteen-year-old begged me. He 00:20:00did qualify. He was deemed low-risk, because he had no prior record. But my instinct was just screaming, This guy's danger; this guy's a problem. So I let her, uh--I let the guy out, on an unsecured bond, with no, no all--no unlawful contact with the alleged victim. Couple weeks later, he sh--killed her, in Metcalfe County, shot her in the back of the head, execution style. As a matter of fact, his case had not been disposed of in Hart County. They brought him over from the jail, because he'd been charged with murder in Metcalfe County. And they brought him over to Metcalfe County to dispose of the, the assault charge. And I remember being so angry, at myself and at him. And then I learned you got to have resolve. You gotta h--this discipline. Because what you really want to do is reach across and grab him. And I looked at him. And I said to myself, never again will I go against my instincts; I will not let emotion cloud my 00:21:00instincts. Um, that was a difficult case. That was a low. I had another case one time where I happened to be in the office signing paperwork, here in LaRue County. And they have a basket for you to sign. And there are bench warrants and pleas offers that have been extended, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And Tuesday's my usual day for doing that, a day like today. I walked into the--to begin signing the paperwork and this lady walked in. And she had to be in her eighties. And someone had beaten her so severely that you could see, uh, nothing in her eyes that were white. All the blood had filled into her eyes. And, uh, I looked at her and I said, "Ma'am, who did this to you?" And it'd been her son. And he'd been drunk, apparently, and beat her. I mean, she was eighty-three--eight-two, eighty-three at the time. But she looked very feeble. I'm thinking, What kind of person would do that? And I remember him being 00:22:00incarcerated, because there was a warrant taken out for him. And brought before the court, just as nonchalant--like he hadn't done anything. And I asked what happened to his mother. Because she was standing there. He said, "I guess she fell--" uh, he said, "she probably fell into the, fell into the trash cans." And I remember wanting to go--I remember r--raising up out of the bench. And then I remember sitting back down. (laughs) So you have to learn to be impassive. But sometimes the situation is such you don't want to be impassive. Uh, so it's an acquired trait. You have to learn to do that. You ha--learn restraint. We're human beings. That's two lows I can tell you about. Let me tell you some of the highs. I had a kid that I pushed through school. I'd yell at him. I had pushed him. I had threatened him. I had cajoled him. I did everything I could possibly do. And it was a, a difficult task to get him through high school. But the day 00:23:00of the graduation, I was to give an award, and sit at a podium, uh, at the--on the stage, with a number of other superintendent--number of other dignitaries, folks who'd give awards away, et cetera. And they'd asked me to give one of the awards away. And before they began the ceremony, they had a reception for all the teachers and all the guests. So I was on my way to the reception. And this guy says, "Judge Reed! Judge Reed!" So I turned around. It was this guy. Keep in mind, juvenile cases are confidential and we don't discuss 'em in any fashion, while they're, uh, while they're a minor. And so I see kids all the time I have in court, uh, but I never acknowledge, uh, uh, like I don't know them. Uh, be out on the street. Sometime the kids don't do tha--go, "Hey, judge." Well, you want to say, "Shh." But, anyway. They do that. Small community and--small community. Uh, but I remember him hugging me--and said, "We made it." He had his diploma. And I remember thinking, "This is what it's about." Young man's never 00:24:00been in trouble. He's got a good job. He's doing well in life. And I think it was worth it. That's a high. And there are others. And the highs do, uh--are greater than the lows. Uh, I had never envisioned that, when I went to school, all those years of going to Hart County, that I would sometime--someday be the judge of that county, and of this county as well. I started school at a segregated school. We didn't have integration, when I first started. Uh, my first year, I was at a school called Carter-Dowling. Uh, it was in the black, uh, area of town. I lived in the country. I lived on a farm, I think I said earlier. I got bussed right past my neighborhood school, to the African American 00:25:00school. The second year--and, of course, in Hart County, as in LaRue, the black community's pretty small and relatively close-knit. Everybody kinda knows everyone. All of us in the country, church and whatnot, we knew just about everyone in the community. So that first year, I was in Carter-Dowling, with people that I knew--

M1: --uh--

REED: --in some cases grew up with. The very next year, they had phased integration--had started in Hart County. And they plucked s--students they thought were best able to cope, quote, unquote, with integration. And so I was a student that was selected. As a matter of fact, I don't think anybody else was, was there. I think I was the only one. So I went from bein'--(laughs)--an all-African American school to, the following year, an all-Caucasian school, with no other blacks in my class. It was interesting. I will say that the teachers went outta their way to make me feel comfortable a--and w--and wanted. 00:26:00And, you know, kids play. We played, uh--played before. I never felt any vestiges of any discrimination whatsoever, none. Then the third year, all the other African American students came into this school system. So I was right in that timeframe, right--a taste of what used to be but moving to what it is now, very quickly. Uh, so if you are African American, you're used to being a minority. If you go to a law school, you're gonna be a minority. As a matter of fact, when I went to high school--uh, we had two race riots during my tenure there. Uh, I was a freshman, when they had the first race riot. (laughs) Uh, started with a little nothing. But fa--families and parents got involved. I think tha--that threw gasoline on the fire. And they had two tracks. In those days, 00:27:00they had two or three tracks, quote, unquote, of education. They had a general education track and they had a college track.

M1: Uh--

REED: --you had General Mathematics, General Science. Those are for folks who are not gonna go to college, who are just gonna go out and get their degree and go to work. Then they had what they call a college track. In that track, they had algebra and uh, geometry and calculus, chemistry and physics. Unfortunately--and that track is the most difficult track. But that was the track--I knew I was going to college, so that was the track I chose. So here I was, once again, and segregated. I think there were--uh, there was two of us, two African Americans in the entire school that was in the college track.

M1: Uh--

REED: --my best friend, uh--[cell phone notification]--was a guy named Douglas Gaines, now called, uh, Douglas Rice. Douglas graduated really high in the 00:28:00class, like fifth or sixth in his class, really high. But he did General Mathematics, General Science. He and I were roommates at Western. I had already had a semester behind me. Because I left early. That fall, he and I roomed together. And Doug was a very capable and a very proud young man. He did well in school. Very, very proud, come from a very tough background. He was proud of his achievements. And he should be. I kept telling him--I said, uh, "You're gonna have trouble, Doug, when you get to college." And, course, the General Mathematics, the General Science, the General English didn't prepare him for college. And I watched him just struggle mightily. And he didn't make it. Here's a guy that finished fifth, sixth in his class and he couldn't m--didn't get through. Back then, they didn't weigh--they do--I think they weigh 'em now. But back in those day, they didn't weigh the classes. You know, an A in General Math 00:29:00not the same as an A in calculus. They do weigh it now. But back then, they didn't weigh it. It was simply they added up your total point grade and that's what it was. And, uh, I watched him struggle and not make it. And I'm thinking, I'm so glad that I got pushed, uh, to go through the college curriculums, Advanced Composition, you know, uh--

ARD: --who pushed you? Was it your parents?

REED: My parents pushed me. My father and mother both put a high premium on education. It was expected of us. It actually was expected of all--it was just something you did. Uh, my father started at Kentucky State, uh, finished, uh--after one year he left, because he wanted to own a business. He was going to get his business administration degree. But they started a business. They started--uh, first form an operation, a trucking operation. And then, later on, my dad opened a restaurant. So he always had, uh--[cell phone notification]--just had it in him to be an entrepreneur. But he strongly pushed 00:30:00education. My--I got a brother who's a physician. My brother finished third in his class, the highest-ranking guy in his class. So, you know, it was expected of you, just what you were supposed to do.

M1: Uh--

REED: --as a matter of fact, my brother and I want to the same school. Uh, I was at law school at Washington University in St. Louis, and he was a undergraduate there. Uh, the year after he, uh, went to school there, I joined him, in law school. And we r--we roomed together. There's a mixed bag but--(ARD laughs)--being with your younger brother. But, you know, we finished together. And he ende--uh, he went on to medical school and got his medical degree and practiced medicine in, uh, Louisiana. He's in the New Orleans area. He did his, uh, residency at a hospital there. Because he went in trauma, emergency medicine, trauma. And Charity Hospital one of the best hospital for that. So he went to Charity Hospital, did his residency there, and just stayed there, ended 00:31:00up being married out there. He's got children. He's got his life, down there. Uh, as a matter of fact, I'm the only one in my immediate family who's left in Kentucky. They a--they a--they've all gone. Uh, I have a sister who--well, that's not true. My sister's moved back from Charleston, South Carolina. I got a sister in New Orleans with my brother. So. Uh--

ARD: --so two sisters, one brother.

REED: I got two sisters, one brother. Uh, I got--my youngest sister is a nurse. The oldest sister has about 150 hours of college but didn't finish her degree. Uh, I don't know how you do that. Uh, I said, "You got enough time to more tha--" I think it's 127 hours to get your bachelor's. She's, uh--like, like 150-something, or 60. But she didn't get her degree. Uh, and she's doing okay for herself. But it was such a premium put on education by my parents, uh, and my grandfather. Tell you a story about my grandfather. He's named after me. Everybody knows me as Derek Reed. That's not really my first name. (ARD laughs) There's a C. It stands for something. I won't go there. But, uh, I'm at West 00:32:00Kentucky University and I'm waiting to talk to someone, one of the administration officers. I don't recall what it was for. I'm waiting in the lobby. And this man walking across. And I don't know who he is. And, uh, they called my grandfather's name. His name was Clyde. And, he--uh, so that's my first name, actually. Uh, the C. Derek Reed? Yeah. But everybody knew me as Derek, because everybody knows my grandfather. My grandfather's well known in the community. And, uh, they called my name, my first name. The guy stops, walks toward me. He said, "Did I hear you say your name was Clyde Reed?" And I said, "Yeah." Then he said, "I'm Dr. Paul Cook." And I says, "Nice to meet you." And I said, "I'm the president of, of Western Kentucky University--interim president of Western." And I said, "Okay." He's, "I'm from Horse Cave." I said, "Oh, 00:33:00really?" Because my father, my--because my family's from Horse Cave. My grandfather grew up there. He's got a farm there. Business was there. And I said, "Really?" He said, "You know my grandfather?" And he said, "Oh, yeah, I know--" uh, said, "Everybody at Horse Cave knows him, uh--hey, let me tell you about your grandfather." He said, "You got a moment?" I said, "Sure." I'm not going to tell the president of Western, "No, I don't have a moment," you know? I'm a freshman at Western. What am I gonna do? "Yeah, no, President. I can't talk." I'm just a lowly freshman. Uh, uh, I'm a seventeen-year-old kid. Yeah, I'm gonna talk to ya. So he sits there. He says, uh, "Tell you about your grandfather. He--your grandfather was the talk of the town, back in the early fifties." I said, "Really?" "Well, your grandfather had a farm, in the right part of town." I said, "Yeah." Farm's still there. Matter of fact, I own the farm now. Said, "Yeah." He said, "Your grandfather did something that's astounding. He commenced to build a house. And he dug the basement out and he commenced to build a big bedrock stone house." He said, "In that era, it was 00:34:00unheard of for a black man to do that. So everybody was going about town, kinda like, 'What's this guy doing? How'd he get that place?' You know." And he said, "He was the talk of the town." He said, "But your family's the talk of the town," I said, "and still is." And I said, "I guess that's good." He said, "It's interesting." So that's my family.

ARD: It's very inter--

REED: --and my grandfather had, uh, hardly any education. But he had an encyclopedic memory. It was s--disconcerting. Tell you what he could do. He could go, in the dark of night, into a city. If he ever's been there, he can go back there. He can tell you what turn to take. Uh, there was a train accident in Hart County, back in the sixties. Uh, and there was a--uh, and there was a train accident, derailment. Uh, there was a--the Army had stored an agent called Agent 00:35:00Orange. Years later, there were a number of people who would develop a rare form of cancer, in that area, a cluster. So the lawyers got involved, lawyers doing what they do. Then they start interviewing. Because my grandfather had been tasked to clean it up, because of his business. And so they deposed my grandfather. One of the attorneys who--a member of the bar now, that practices pretty regularly--front of me was telling me the story. "We're doing this deposition." He s-- "Your grandfather gives chapter and verse, dates, time, to the hour, what--pl--took place, what he did, and what they found, what was on the canisters, the name on the ca--the serial numbers." He said, "Everybody's sitting there. They just kind of dropped their pencils." And I said, "Yeah. Yeah. That's how he was." He said, "It was astounding." He said--matter of fact, he said the other side didn't even have any questions. They were just like--they were astounded. He had it down--he remember the serial numbers--to that degree. 00:36:00And I'm talking about something that, uh, w--thirty years later. I mean, this woulda been mid-nineties. This took place in 1968 or something, uh, long time before he--he still remembered. My grandfather had type of memory. But he had a very poor education. But he had businesses. He was about business. And he bought farms. And he owned a trucking company, and had some level of success. And, uh, that's the environment I was raised in.

ARD: Sounds like your grandfather and your father were really important figures in your life.

REED: Yeah. They were. Uh, my father and grandfather both were very important in my life, uh, uh, just the mentality, you know, not subtly, not accepting a role for yourself. Uh, you could ver--be, very eas--uh, You can't be a judge. In Hart County? Are you kidding me? What are we, 7 percent of the population, the African American side? That much? You know, they asked me one time, "Do you, do 00:37:00you think a African American can be president?" I said, "I don't know why not, if I can be judge in Hart, LaRue County." Uh, we don't have any sizable--uh, Arnold has a very sizable African American population, and Christian C--we don't have that. I mea--I mean, matter of fact, it's close to being the majority, as I remember. But that's not the case in Hart and LaRue County. So. Uh, I can remember that, the first year I was in office, I think Mr. Morris wanted to be judge. And, uh, one of my supporters, a guy named Conroy Harris--Conroy is a legendary g--down in Hart County. He's a clerk down there and been clerk for thirty years and just kn--knows everybody. Outspoken, go--you know, just a giant figure in, uh--[cell phone notification]--politics. Matter of fact, Chief Justice Lambert had said something to me before--

M1: --uh--

REED: --at one point in time, said, "Well, Judge Reed's got a strong disadvantage to anybody here in this room. He's got to deal with Conroy," and start laughing. Because that's how well known Conroy Harris was. Well, Conroy was, "I got a little story to tell you." I said, "Okay, Conroy. What is it?" 00:38:00"Well, you might have competition. But I don't think you will, thi--uh, I think we scared him off." I said, "What are you talking about?" He said, "Well, a little man from--" he called him "little m--a little man from--" uh--uh, gotta understand how he talks. If you ever met Conroy, you'll know what I'm talking about. And I said, uh, "Came down here, thinking about he wants to be judge." And I said, "Well, what'd they tell him?" And they said, "We told him, 'Forget it. You won't even win Cub Run.'" Cub Run is a very, very, very conservative area of Hart County, uh, western Hart County, and well known for--matter of fact, for years, when you go into Cub Run--it's right before you get to Nolin Lake. You travel down a big hill. There used to be a big old sign, on 88, said, "This is Klan country." (laughs) So--and the Klu Klan was strong in that area. So when Conroy told me that, it might not have meant anything to anyone else. It meant a great deal to me. Because I knew exactly what that meant. If I would win in Cub Run, if I could win or do up in Cub Run, that meant a grea--a great deal to me. And I've not had opposition since I was appointed. Uh, and I just--I'm 00:39:00thankful because of that. Uh, I enjoy the people of Hart Cou--and LaRue County. Uh, I like to think I got an advantage over most that would run, because, uh, I'm a native of Hart County, but live in LaRue County and my children grew up here. And so we developed relationships here, as well. So it's been a fun ride. But I think my background has prepared me for this job, you know. Because I've seen both sides. And, uh, uh, I've, uh, grew up with no running water--[cell phone notification]--and with a honey pot. But I've also had the opportunity to sit in the same table with Auggie, Auggie Busch and talk about what we need for Washington University--St. Louis. Because I was presi--the boss of, my senior year, Black Law Students Association. And we talked about recruitment of African 00:40:00Americans students into Washington University. Because it was an embarrassment. Uh, the last--the year after I was--my second year, they recruited two members for the following year--uh, two, out of--two. So they met with us--how to-- "We need to do better than this. Uh, you know, w--we're embarrassed." Uh, "Where you recruiting at?" And they start telling m--I said, "You don't g--why would you go to Grinnell College in Iowa, looking for black students?" You kn--uh, you know. "Well, that's where--that's where our recruiting base. We're trying to--" I said, "Okay. That's fine. Have you considered, Xavier University, in New Orleans? Have you looked at them? What about Howard, you know? What about other places? By the way, don't just confine yourself to schools that you think can make the grade, because I'm from Western and I made--I've made it." So, you know, you got to consider the student, not where they're from. So the last year 00:41:00we recruited, we had thirty-two students come in. And I understand that twenty-six of 'em graduated. S--maybe that's not great. But you consider the fact, the year before, we had two. Uh, that's pretty significant difference. But we sit down. And, uh, uh, I'm sitting at a table. And I got the guy who runs Anheuser-Busch on the one side of me. Across the table is the guy whose family is the Ralston Purina--Danforth, uh, whose brother is a US senator at that time. Because William Danforth was the chancellor. His brother was a sitting sen--senator, John Danforth. On the other side of me, sitting right next to me, was William Webster, and attorney general, you know, et cetera, that guy. And, uh, I'm thinking, Boy, we're a long way from Uno. (both laugh) We are long way from Uno. Uh, we were a long way from Uno.

ARD: Yeah.

REED: Uh--

ARD: --s--how did you decide to go to law school?

REED: Well, it's kinda weird. Um, I had not planned to go to law school. Uh, when I got--undergraduate, my first--my plan was to be a physician. But my hatred of physics and chemistry and my lack of ability in that area convinced me that wasn't the right fit for me. (laughs) So we start talking and I start looking and start fi--uh, "Wha-wha-what's your strength and your weaknesses?" And my mother said, "You know, you've always argued." Used to watch a show called Che--Checkmate. She said, "You've always--look--drawn to Perry Mason." She said, "You're a lawyer. D--?" I said, "I don't think so. They're s--they're sleazy, you know." We didn't have advertisement back then but still something ab--there was a stigma associated with being a lawyer. And I said--you know, 00:43:00and, I like, I enjoy politics. And then, uh, I took a class, another class. And before you know it, I was gravitating toward that. We had a--tell you what sealed the deal for me. Uh, there was a sympo--I'll, uh--this comes up now as sort of a good segue. Uh, there was a s--symposium at Western. Because they'd asked me to be in the Forensics Union, because I like to argue with people. And they had a ver--they've got a very excellent program at Western, one of the better ones in the nation, still. "And, uh, just come. Want you to come to a--to the session." And I said, "What it's gonna be about?" "We're gonna have a discussion about apartheid." I said, "Really?" That was big, back in the, back in the day. And I said, "Yeah." The pros and cons of it. And I said, "Who's gonna be the speaker?" They said, "William Buckley." I said, "That guy? Firing Line William Buckley? Yeah, I'll be there. Yeah." So I went. And I don't 00:44:00think--uh, I'm looking around, at the symposium. They're talk about South Africa and whether or not we should have sanctions on South Africa. That was the rage, shall we have sanction on South Africa? And tha--that was, that was the symposium. And, of course, uh, Buckley was very much against it. So, uh, uh, we was at the ballroom, and there at Western. And I'm looking, uh, I'm looking for African Americans. I don't see any. Where, where are the--? Once again--you know. I raised my hand. Finally, finally, I--they brought the little thing over. And I said--I gave a question. It was a Catch Twenty-Two question. No matter what Buckley said, it was gonna be a loser for him. So he didn't answer the question. He's smart guy, very smart guy. After the conference--and I think I had the last question that was asked, before they broke the conference. So Buckley calls me over. "Y--young man." Y--young man." Uh, that's how he talked. I don't know if you remember William Buckley, and, uh, very, uh, full of himself. God and Man at Yale, that guy. (clears throat) So, uh, Buckley comes over to me. 00:45:00And I said--the first thing I said, "S--" I said, "sir, you didn't answer my question." S--uh, "I had no intentions of answering your question." He said, "You would have put me in a dis--you asked me--" and he said, uh, the--uh, he, he called a logical name for it, "You were gonna try, uh, uh--" And he said, "Walk with me." So I walked with him to his car. And we talked the entire way--uh, he said "I predict, in twenty years, you'll be a conservative." I said, "No way." (laughs) Uh, I said, "No way in hell." But, uh, you know, he was very kind. And we talked. And, and I gave my point of view about things. "You're on your way. You just don't know it." That's what he said to me. It's, uh alright, we'll see--and, uh, that was a really interesting conversation. That was sorta the, the lynchpin for me. From that point on, I knew what I wanted to do. I knew I wanted to be an attorney.

ARD: So would you say that William F. Buckley was--

REED: --I will say--

ARD: --your inspiration? (laughs)--

REED: --I w--I will say, I will say, arguably, William F. Buckley was my 00:46:00inspiration, having a dialog with him. You know, Washington's a excellent school. Uh, and it has a pretty high reputation--and, you know, it's ranked fairly high in law schools. Because they have the money that they have, they can bring in really, really important speakers. Give you another example. When I was, uh, there, they had a--another forum. They brought in a guy named Clarence Thomas, to speak to us. And we had a private audience with Clarence Thomas, room kinda like this room, much nicer but same size type room, nice chairs and couches.

ARD: Uh--

REED: --and I remember t--going outta that room, after talking with Clarence Thomas for a while--he was bla--he had black hair then. He was the president--he was the, uh, chairman of EEOC [Equal Employment Opportunity Commission]. And, uh, the whole time, he was--he kept talking about how he didn't want to be chairman of EEOC. And, uh, wh--why is he chairman of E--uh, if he doesn't want 00:47:00it? Uh, he ha--he said, "You know what?" He said, "I'm only EEOC chairman because I'm black. I really wanted to be in the Commerce department. I have a interest in business." And he rant and raved about the fact that he was selected by Ronald Reagan to be his EEOC chairman and that h--that's not what he wanted. And I said, "Well, is that Ronald Reagan's--whose fault is that?" I guess he was trying to, he was trying to make a statement that affirmative action caused him to be limited in what he was doing. And I said, "I don't blame affirmative action as much I blame the president, that that's not what you wanted and that's what he put you in. As a matter of fact, you had the authority to say no, didn't you?" Anyway, we were leaving that room that day, thinking, I hope this guy never, never, never gets any further than he go--because he hates himself; he has a self-hatred that's really, really evident. We know what happened there. (ARD laughs) But, uh, I m--and, uh, I was stunned. Uh, uh, this guy look at himself and hates--he looks in the mirror and dislikes himself that intensely. And, to me, if you got that much self-hatred, how do you--what's wrong with you? 00:48:00You oughta be proud. The fact that you EEOC chairman, uh, should be something to be pr--proud of, not to be ashamed of.

ARD: S--that's a very interesting observation. You made some very interesting observations, early in your educational career.

REED: I was--yeah! I was a--stunned, you know? Because--I was just stunned.

ARD: Hm.

REED: Uh, sometimes, though, you meet people and ya think one thing and they end up being something quite different. Buckley is an example. While Buckley seemed to be a pompous, uh--and, no doubt, he was, he also was very charitable, in terms of his conversation. Uh, just as like my perception about, at that time, Chairman Thomas, I think it's pretty s--history has borne my concerns out.

ARD: Hm.

REED: Uh, but sometimes, you go into thinking o--the positive thing about 00:49:00someone and you meet them and you think--the positive becomes a negative. Um, when I was a freshman, my first year at law school--uh, you, you got to understand. In 1984, there was a election cycle, for president. And Ronald Reagan had been president for four years. He was running for reelection. Uh, and I know there's a lot of--(coughs)--nostalgia about his can--his presidency, lot of nostalgia, a lot of, uh, positive things. Because he was a nice old man, kindly-faced. But for a lot of us, during that timeframe, we thought he was a devil. If you were African American, you thought, This guy doesn't have a clue. I mean, we, we paint it pretty now but if you gotta go back in time and take a look at the snapshot, see? I worked at a soup kitchen when they turned out all the guys. "We're gonna quit paying 'em." And a lot of folks who were mentally 00:50:00ill got turned out onto the street. Uh, uh, I was part of that. I know that happened, because I was part of it. So, I thought this guy was a problem. I met him. Amicable guy, nice as he can be. But you gotta get past that and look at the policies that you see were going into place and the, the attempt to roll back certain advancements that had been made. Uh, that's what you gotta keep your--uh, uh, not how nice someone is, uh, how amicable they are but really look at what's really going on. That's the difficult thing. Because, you, we got so caught in personality. And we don't look at the policy issues.

ARD: Uh--

REED: --anyway, going back, uh, the candidate that ran against, uh, Ronald Reagan that year was a guy named Walter Mondale. And I worked the Missouri campaign for Mondale. Was a campaign. Worked really hard. (laughs) Got arrested, 00:51:00because of it. But I met Mondale. Mondale, uh, he went to a place called, uh--to a Superfund site, to draw attention to the EPA {Environmental Protection Agency] problems, uh.

M1: Uh, uh--

REED: --and he came there and he spoke. And we drove the car, uh, met him. Soon as I met the man, I had very--and just automatic--and just, you know--you know, he shake your hand and you just have this--I had this just major dislike f--I'm like, Oh, I worked so hard--this guy; I can't stand him! Something about him--euhh! Just something about his personality and his g--his, his aura. And like, ew! Y--y--usually you read those right. I'm like, uh, ueh! I went back thinking, My God! I mean, I put a lot of effort--I mean, my first year at law school kinda suffered, because I worked so hard for this guy. Uh, many days, I shoulda been doing this instead of, uh, doing that. But anyway, uh, that was so, so disappointing, to meet, uh, somebody you worked that hard for and 00:52:00automatically know, soon as you saw him, you don't believe none of this stuff that you s--s--uh--

ARD: Uh--

REED: --it's all, uh--

ARD: --uh--

REED: --part of the, uh--anyway.

ARD: Um-hm.

REED: Uh--(laughs)--that was, in October, when he came to, uh--want to say Weldon Springs. That don't sound right. But a Superfund site. Then, uh, just before, uh--I talked to my dad, the night before my first finals--[knocks on surface]--for my first year of law school. I talked to my mom and my dad and, uh, told 'em things were going g--things--the first year--because law school's different. Because you only get one crack at it. You don't have four tests in a semester and all that stuff, like in college. You got one test one semester and that's it. So I'm preparing for my first examinations, uh. And I talked to my dad. And maybe an hour or so after I spoke. He called me up, said, "Derek, what's going on?" I s-- "What are you talking about?" "So some detective from St. Louis has called, asking about you." I said, "What are you talking about, Dad?" He said, "Something about you took a car." I said, "Wha--what are you 00:53:00talking about?" And I said, "I don't have any idea what you're talking about." He said, "Well, he left a number for you to call." So I said, "Okay." So I called. The Clyde thing messed up again. They did a search for Clyde Reed and got my grandfather. They looked at his bir--the date of birth, you coulda know--you shoulda known it wasn't me. But, uh, the next day, I called this number. Uh, "This is Derek Reed. I'm callin'--I think someone called my, my father, in, uh, Kentucky, about--" Uh, the guy said, "Just a minute." He said, "Where are you at?" And I told him where I lived at. He said, "We'll be there shortly." I said, "What's this about?" "Just s--stay there." And I said, "Okay." And I said, "Well, how long will that be?" They said, "Well, it'll probably be a couple hours." "Okay." Uh, I had an appointment to have my car taken to the shop that morning. And he said he'd be there, a couple hours, so I knew I had enough time to get to the shop and back. So I went to the shop. Because I had a door--

M1: --uh--

REED: --I had an old Buick Regal, where the door had, uh--two-door, long heavy doors--and hinges wou--you had to lift the thing up to get it off the--take 00:54:00the--so they, uh, repaired that. I came back. My brother says, "Derek, what's going on?" I said, "What do you mean?" "S--some guy came here looking for you. I had to show them, uh, I wasn't you. Uh, got really crazy-acting. I had to show my ID and--et cetera, et cetera, et cetera." I said, "What?" I said, "Wh--what is going on here?" So I called 'em again. And, uh, they come right back. They apparently hadn't gotten back. They turned around and came back. And, uh, I went downtown with 'em. "What's this about?" So, uh, took me to a room, uh, start questioning me. I said, I said, uh, "Are you the ones that called my dad?" I said, "Wh--what's this about?" They said, "We, w--we--you stole a car." And I said, "I did what?" M1: Uh--

REED: --"You, you stole a car, uh, we thought maybe took to Kentucky and sold it." I said, "What are you talking about?" I said, "I'm a student at Washington University school of law. Uh, what are you talking about?" And so, uh, there were two police officers, uh, little short guy, about that tall, uh, and bigger, 00:55:00African American guy, great big guy. And the little guy had done most of the talking. He was nasty. And he got ri--stood right over me. I'm sitting in a chair. He stands over me. So I find myself getting angry. Because I'm thinking, What's this about? I'm more confused than anything. He's been real, uh-- "What'd you do with that car? What'd you do with that car?" Uh, I said, I said, "Get--" I said, "don't stand over me." "What are you gonna do?" And I stood up. And he's, uh, here. I sai--I said, "I'm gonna tell you one more time. Don't stand over me." I was very--I felt myself getting very, very angry. And I turned to him. And he start cussing me. And I said, "Sir, I didn't curse you." And I turned to the other officer and I said, uh--he's, uh, "I locked you--" he said, "I would have locked your little you-know-what up so--already." I said, "For what?" "You stole a car." And I said--

ARD: --uh--

REED: -- "What are you talking about? I have not stolen any car. You obviously have me mixed up with someone else." And, uh, they start questioning about a car. Then I realize what had happened. We had a motorcade that had taken, uh, 00:56:00Walter Mondale to the Superfund site. And members of the campaign had signed, uh, signed out for these cars. We put our initial beside the car. And we drove the cars. As a matter of fact, I was in a car with a NBC chief correspondent, some Lisa somebody--I can't remember her name--and another person. And we talked all the way there. And I said, "I don't even know what you're talking about." And they start, uh, "You, you took this car." And I said, "What car?" They mentioned a car. I said, "That was a ca--that was the campaign. Uh, that was early October! Uh, it's December. Wha--what are you talking about?" Well, the car had been missing that long. I said, "I don't have-- " I said, "I don--I didn't even drive that car back." I said, "I left that car at the parking lot." I said, "I don't know what you're talking about." (clears throat) Make a long story short, uh, they asked me I will-willing to take a lie detector test. I said, "I know it's not admissible. And I'll take one." That made the guy angry. "Oh, so you're a lawyer already." I said, "No, sir. I'm going to law school." And 00:57:00s--and, uh, so took a lie detec--I heard 'em talking back, "He passed the test." Then the guys says, uh, "I think you're crimini--I don't think you're criminally liable but you're civilly liable for that car. You have $15,000?" I said, "No." "You're free to go." I said, uh, "Who's gonna take me?" He s-- "You gotta call someone." I said, "You brought me out here. You can't take me back home?" "You'll find your way back." So I call my brother. "Take my--bring my car. Come and get me. Uh, I'm, uh, here in St. Louis, at the police station." I got back. I studied all night. Because they kept me, uh, the entire day. From that morning on--I was there until almost dusk. So I h--that was a whole day of study I didn't have. So I studied all night. I popped NoDoz and I s--didn't go to bed that night. W--walked in, the next day. The receptionist says, "Mr. Reed?" How do you know me? There's 600 students in this law school. Walked in. She said, uh, "Dean Patterson wants to see you, Dean Shelton too." And I'm thinking, You know 00:58:00what happened to me, don't ya? They got it right there. And so they brought me in. And they c--asked me, asked me was I okay. And I told 'em, "Yeah." And they said, "They called here looking for you--they call--talking' to you. We told 'em you are respected member of our class and, uh, nothing was to happen to you." And, uh, she said the, she said the chancellor spoke to the police. So I said--

M1: --uh--

REED: -- "Thanks for protecting me" --(laughs)--you know. Because they're a pretty powerful university. And I really, really--and they--apparently--they said, "Things have happened to young students before. Th--there's been things happen to young African American men in the St. Louis Police Department. So we wanted to make sure didn't happen to you. We wanted to let them know we were watching. Do you want your class or do you want another day? I've already talked to the professors. If you want another day, to get you some rest, prepare, that's fine." I said, "Sure." So I got to take my test a little differently. But I walked into, I walked into, uh, the classroom and--my property professor was a guy named David Becker. He's the most serene, very, very, uh, dignified, 00:59:00classical, you know, guy, very logical--property--real bright guy. He caught me and he said, "I want to talk to you for a moment." I said, "Okay." And, uh, he said, "Mr. Reed," he said, uh, "we know what happened to you. They came here looking for you, to the classroom, looking for you. Do you want to press charges against 'em?" I said, "No." "Why?" "I just want it to go away. Uh, I've got to be here for the next three years. I don't want any trouble." He was cussing and ranting and h--uh, like the guy was completely off his hinge. And I'm thinking, This is that cerebral guy, that's scary in class, you know. But he say he's talking to, uh, Professor Miller. "He's a criminal law expert. You know, we'll get ya a lawyer, if you want to do that, go that route." I said, "No, uh, they found, uh, the--" Uh, matter of fact, when I told him I left the car there--you know what the car--? The car had been sitting in the parking lot, at the hotel. My car had been left for Mondale to take back to the airport, the next morning. Mondale took a--took a shuttle instead. The car had been sitting in the parking 01:00:00lot at the hotel, for the la--since October--until December. They found the car. They, uh--they shou--they were embarrassed. They didn't apologize. But, uh--and, uh, that was a real-life issue that happened during my tenure as WashU [Washington University in St. Louis]. Uh, but I have really, really fond memories of the school. Uh, one of my professors was a lady named Kathleen Brickey. She just passed away, this past year. And, uh, uh, she's from Danville. We start talking about--then I start thinking. I said, "Wait a minute. Wait a minute." Because, uh, I did so--I did a c--I did some cler--I clerked for--I did some clerk work. Uh, and, after I went back and--my third year, uh, I said, I said, "Professor Bri--you didn't tell me--"

M1: --uh--

REED: "--just who you really were." Because she taught, uh, my crim. law class, my first year. Sh--and I said--I start doing research for the judge, my second year, and I'm seeing, "See Brickey on criminal law." "You wrote the criminal law 01:01:00book in Kentucky. S--y--your book's still used by folks in Kentucky." I said--she kind of smile. She says, "Yes," like that. And I said, "I didn't realize you are the, the expert of Kentucky criminal law. I mean, you go to the thing, you'll see, 'See Brickey on criminal law.'" To this day, you know, you'll see her, her name. Uh, and the other guy who was very infamous--or famous, I guess you would say, uh, my con. [constitutional] law professor. They had two--Con law was a mandated class. You had to take that. And so they had two professors. Uh, they had a guy who wrote St. Louis desegregation plan, who was one professor. And the other professor was named Jules Gerard. If you ever go to con. law book, you'll see a book by, uh, by Gerard. That's that Ge--Gerard, Jules Gerard--archconservative. He and Bill Wrinkles (??) are big buddies. (laughs) So we, uh, uh, had philosophical discussions all the ti--He liked to pick on me. And, uh, there was a infamous case outta Kentucky, called Bats--uh, the Batson 01:02:00case. And, uh, I told him how wrong that case was. And he thought--uh, nothing wrong with it. I said, "Wha--what kind of guy will say, 'You got to take the bitter with the sweet'?" Because in the, in the case, ju--m--m-mentions "bitter with the sweet." Uh, "That was my friend. I helped him on that case." Uh, "I don't care if you did or not, because it's still wrong." You know? Y--you should be able to target someone exclu--by--based on race. What if--and, of course, his position's what if you thi--they think race is a factor in the decision-making. Then you should be able to s--p--that was his argu--you're never gonna win that. Professor Gerard. Th--another case we had was a case called INS versus Chadha. And, uh, I said, uh, "Shouldn't we afford him certain rights?" "What--? That's the most insane thing I've ever heard, Mr. Reed! Is he a citizen? Is he, is he legal? Why should we afford him any rights, since he's not legally in this country?" I said, "How about because he's just on our soil?" I said, "So taking 01:03:00your thought process to a logical conclusion, I could shoot him and, because he's not legal, he had no recourse against me." Uh, "Specious argument." I'll never forget how, uh--he went on and on how nutty that analogy was. Then, I don't know, twenty years later, there's this case that came out and said we have to afford certain rights to illegal aliens, simply because they're on American soil. I kept thinking, Ha; told ya. That's twenty-some years later. I swear I wanted to find Jules Gerard, say, "Hey, J--uh, uh, they, uh--hh, uh" --(ADR laughs)-- "Hey, professor! Remember that case you told me I was a idiot about?" (laughs) And, uh--

ARD: --uh--

REED: --and so, so I remember, going back, and just that dialogue. And sometimes, I do miss that academic setting like that. Because in this venue, I don't get that, most of the time. And in the district level, you're very subject to making new law. Uh, occasionally you make a ruling because you think a law is vague or you think that a law is unconstitutional. But that's not the norm, you know. The LLC does a really good job of making sure that the thoughts of 01:04:00legislation's done the right way, in the l--right language, to make sure that it's not vague or unconstitutional. But, uh, looking back at my time, it's, it's been a, it's been a good life. Uh, and, my life here on the bench, I've enjoyed it, uh, a great deal. Uh, Chief Justice Minton asked me, uh, to be Vice Regional Judge. And then later, when Ju--when Chief, uh, Chief Regional Judge Potter d--retired from that position, after reading about what was happening with the senior judge program, he asked me to sit on. And it's been enjoyable but challenging. Because we don't have senior judgeship anymore. Uh, and now I've got to ask my, my brethren--and help each--bro--brother help brother. Uh, and that's not easy sometimes. We got busy judges, in their own right. "And, Judge Jones, can you take a case for Judge Kelley? And, Judge Kelley, can you take a case for Judge Alexan--? And, uh, and Judge McCarty," et cetera, et cetera. And sometimes it's difficult to do. And sometimes--

M1: --uh--

REED: --I got free time. Rather than ask the judge, I just go--I go to Bowling 01:05:00Green. Or last week, I went to Daviess County. Uh, I've got twenty-two counties, from Daviess on down to Nelson County. So. And I'm not complaining about i--it's just different.

M1: Yeah.

REED: You know, does give me a chance to see how other people practice, too. And everybody's got their own way of doing business. And what you try to do is--I like the way that, uh--I like that s--I hadn't thought of it; that's really good; l--let me see if could find a way to put that in our s--stuff. Uh, so--

ARD: --uh--

REED: --it also gives you an opportunity to grow.

ARD: So that position is--? Tell me a little bit more about what that position is--

REED: Yeah. Here's what--

ARD: --which was before.

REED: --happens, is there's several regions of Kentucky. Uh, it's, it's called a Chief Regional Judge. I'm in the Green River Region.

ARD: Okay.

REED: Uh, I think there's twenty--and, uh, twenty-two counties under my jurisdiction. And what--typically, what I try to do is I try to represent the judge in my region. And let's say, for example, one of the--the, the judge in Nelson County has to recuse himself, because he's the Assistant County Attorney 01:06:00and the person he's sitting in judgment over is someone he--

M1: --uh--

REED: --prosecuted--Assistant County Attorney. He contacts my office. I gotta locate him a judge to sit, because he has to recuse himself. Or even I, sometimes, got a family member, an old family--distant relative or I know something about the case and I don't feel like I can be fair and impartial. I've got an obligation to recuse myself. Or I got a judge in Barren County whose father is a practicing attorney, as an example. And I got a judge in Allen County, one of my counties, whose husband's a practicing attorney. So sometimes they have to recuse, because of that. Uh, or I've got a situation--I've got three judges in--and, uh, three district judges in Warren County. And sometimes, there's a scenario when there's an allegation all the judges are on the take. And so all the judge recuse themself. And they call me. And I gotta find a judge for that case. Or in Daviess County, when I was there last week, it was because the alleged victim was a sister to one of the sitting judges there. So that's 01:07:00the kind of stuff you have to do. And also, you r--you have to represent the chief, chief on policy matters that he wants implemented--and making s--uh, and making sure that his thoughts and processes a--are implemented. That's also a part of our responsibilities.

ARD: Thank you.

M1: Yeah.

ARD: That was one of the questions that we had kind of--wanted to highlight, was how that position came about and--

REED: --yeah. There's a--I think there's--don't hold me to this--I think there's six regions--

ARD: --okay--

REED: --in Kentucky. I think that's correct. I think Jefferson is a region unto themselves. Uh, I think there's six of them, though, I think a total is six. Uh, each one has a Re--Chief Reg--and a Vice Ch--Regional Judge.

ARD: Uh--

REED: --and, if I couldn't--for whatever reason, I couldn't make the appointment, then Judge Shumate--he's my Vice Regional Judge--he would. Uh--

ARD: --uh--

REED: --Judge Shumate's out of Hardin County.

ARD: Okay. Thank you.

M1: Um-hm.

ARD: We, uh, haven't talked a l--much about your early law practice. And I 01:08:00remember, when you were talking--

M1: --uh--

ARD: --you said were driving to Louisville.

REED: Yeah. Let me tell you what I did. Uh, I had a private practice for years. And also, I used to work, uh, for county government, in Jefferson County. And I did that for a number of years, as a way, uh--and I did double-duty, in both those positions. And uh, I'd go to work every morning. I'd leave the house about 6:15, and, uh, to be at work at about eight. Uh, I try to make sure I'm there early. And then, uh, sometimes I'd--I would leave the office, and, uh, the county government, and go with my private office, and I'd get home eleven, twelve o'clock at night. And it was becoming very, very difficult. Uh, when I first started, we had a pri--we had a firm. Worked in a firm. The firm, uh--folk went their own way. And then you start goin'--y--you had your own practice, by yourselves. And then you had partnerships--and partnerships in the sense-of not like you think about a firm but partnership in the sense that we share office space. You have your office. And I cover for you, because I can't be in two 01:09:00courts at the same time, and you cover for me, et cetera. That type of a thing. Uh, and it was a challenge. But, uh, you know, I look back at those days. It was also part of the training ground, training ground. The practice allowed me to do a varied practice. Uh, I hated family law. I really, really had the strong--and I quit doing divorces. I did a few. But I starte--I don't like that--uh, just not what I am. And so the majority of my practice was administrative law, uh, some criminal law, some probate--uh, that was m--and personal injury.

ARD: Uh--

REED: --uh, had some personal injury cases that were pretty significant in terms of money. But, uh, uh, that was--and I did that for years and years and years.

ARD: And then you got the appointment. (laughs)

REED: Appointment. Two thousand one--April, 2001. Never forget it. Uh--

ARD: --and, uh, after that, obviously, you had to run a campaign.

REED: Yeah. Uh--

ARD: --can you tell us a little bit about the campaign experience?

REED: Well--

ARD: --I know you said you weren't opposed.

REED: Right. You know, to be frank with you, you have two different modes.

M1: Uh--

REED: --first of all, I think you run--when you became appoint--when you're appointed as a judge or elected as a judge, you're always in campaign mode, in that sense of how you treat people. Y--you're going to be fair and impartial. You're going to make sure you tr--people like you want to be treated. But you have the obligation to be accessible to people. And, to me, that's--if you got a--you not accessible until you--and, uh, you're in campaign season, you already sh--you should lose--

M1: --uh--

REED: --been, uh--if you've got to change how you do business, when you're in campaign mode, because there's an election cycle, like we have now, then you really don't need to be in the office. That's my personal appr--uh--so I haven't 01:11:00done anything differently, when I'm in campaign mode, than I would do otherwise. I don't know that would be true, if I had an opponent.

ARD: Uh--

REED: --I'd probably be a bit more--my p--personality, I wouldn't change anything but I'd be more visible.

ARD: Uh--

REED: --I'm pretty private guy. And I would have to be more visible, if I was, uh, in campaign mode because I had a opponent running against me.

ARD: Uh--

REED: --but, in terms of how I treat people, how I treat the o--uh, I wouldn't have changed a thing. If you got to change something because, uh--you're doing something really, really wrong. That's my personal opinion.

ARD: That makes a lot of sense. Uh, obviously, the story that--you said--and I didn't quite capture the name of the, the community that was the Klan part of the--

REED: --uh, Cub Run! (Ard laughs) Cub Run. See, you got to understand. Hart County is, uh--has several different areas.

ARD: Um-hm.

REED: Uh, and it really reminds you of the state of Kentucky, in some ways. But you have western Hart County. Extreme western Hart County is the Cub Run area. 01:12:00It almost joins Grayson County. It's rural. It's very hilly. Um, and it's very, very conservative. And then you have, uh, uh, eastern Hart County, which would be different parts. Uh, but you have a area where there's a place called Hardyville and Canmer. Some of the prime farmland is there. It's much more s--farm oriented--uh, a strong mixture of different groups of people. Uh, move up in northeastern Hart County, into the Die-Shiboley area, oddly enough, uh--and also into Linwood area, then it becomes more hilly, when you cross over the river--

ARD: --uh--

REED: --and come back this way. And it's a bit more conservative. LeGrande is a rich farm area, as well. It's south of Hardyville. And then you have the town--there's a bastion unto itself, uh, Horse Cave.

ARD: Right.

DR; Horse Cave is Louisville, if you're in Kentucky. Uh--

ARD: --I understand.

REED: Yeah. I--it's--(Ard laughs)--it's, it's, uh, it's differe--number one, it has a different school system.

ARD: Uh--

REED: --there, they got the Caverna school system. And it's very different than the Hart County school system. Uh, you're a, uh, relatively high minority population for Hart County--as Hart County goes. And it's just different. It's very different. And then you have Munfordville, which sorta is, uh, the center--county seat. Uh, and it has a good mixture of folks. And then you have--north of Munfordville is Bonnieville. And Bonnieville, uh, begins to, to move into a really conservative type scenario. Next to Bonnieville is Cub Run, and on up through, uh, Priceville. And all those are very, very, uh, inaccessible areas, for the most part, uh, because of typography --uh, yeah, and very, very conservative. Uh--

ARD: --uh, s--

REED: --and you have to understand, for years, Hart County didn--uh, was divided in these sections. And the divisions ran very deep, in many ways. Not the least 01:14:00w--w--were the school systems. Before there was Hart County School, which started in '67, '68, there was LeGrande High S--there was Bonnieville. The--they had their own schools. And they were very isolated. And, uh, Cub Run didn't have anything to do with folks in Munfordville, M--Munfordville had anything to do with folks--it was just very different, and, uh, very conservative. Uh--

ARD: --so would you, uh--

REED: --uh--

ARD: --with that environment, obviously there's, uh--there's long-held beliefs.

REED: Yeah.

ARD: Would you say that race has had any kind of--has been any kind of issue, in any of your campaigns?

REED: No. I te--I tell you what. Here, here's what happens, is folks have a different, uh, point of view. And they go into a certain position of a point of view. All you can do is judge the way you know to be the right way to do, and 01:15:00make it very clear and plain. And before you know it, it's seen as that and race no longer plays a primary issue. Uh, I may still be that black judge but that black judge is fair, as a example. So I would like to be "that judge" but, if I can't have that because of circumstance, I'll take, "That black judge is fair"--

ARD: --(laughs) Very good--

REED: --you know. Uh, and, you know, I'm looking forward to the day where, uh, I'm just Judge Reed.

ARD: Uh--

REED: --and I think, for a lot of folks, I am just Judge Reed. And I do realize--do I expect, not a 100 percent, to be Judge Reed? The answer is no. But for the f--10 percent that can't get past that "black judge," at least I want them to be able to say, "Tha--that judge is fair and impartial. Uh, he does the right thing. Uh, he has--uh, he has a heart for the people." That's what I'm seeking. And that's what, uh, I think we try to do every day. Uh, and, uh, I 01:16:00think I've accomplished that. I think a lot of people move past that. I think they see it on a superficial level.

ARD: Uh--

REED: --but, in terms of professional level, they see--they make a differentia--between that. "Yeah, he might be black but, uh, he's, he's our judge. And he's from Hart County. And he do--I think he does a good job." I've heard that, more than one occasion. Uh, uh, you know, y--you take what you can get. (laughs)

ARD: That's, uh, very good. That's a great way for me to ask you a little bit about what types of activities you're involved in in the community.

REED: Yeah. Uh, you gotta be very careful. Because when you are--being a judge is pretty isolated, more than you might think. That seems to be counterintuitive. But you really, really--because anything that you may have, uh, had to make a decision, you don't need to be a part of. If you're part of it, then there's a belief you can't make, uh, the proper decision. So that's a, 01:17:00uh, self-limiting thing, by itself. But having said that, there are certain organizations--for example, I belong to the Cattlemen's Association, in LaRue County--uh, had a farm. Uh, I belong to that association. Uh, because it's--I don't think there's anything that I'm gonna do that has any potential conflict, in that area. Uh, there's many different, uh, or--civic organization that you support, in one way or the other. Uh, even if you don't become a member of it, because you feel like you can't, you still give some level of support to it. Uh, so, so I try to limit myself, in terms of being named as a member of but I try to be very supportive of their goals and what they're trying to do, particularly when it's trying to help people, young people or elderly people or--uh, they've asked me to sit in at the nursing home and judge contests. And I enjoy doing that, that sorta thing, you know, for charity, to make more money for elderly people in the community. Uh, you know, uh, y--you do things like that.

ARD: Uh--

M1: --yeah.

REED: Because y--it's like it's the right thing to do. But you can't be too vested in it, particularly if you feel like it may come before you someday. Uh--

ARD: --uh, s--that's a very good point. Uh, one of the things that I wanted to circle back--

REED: --uh--

ARD: --because you've just been wonderful storyteller--uh, is what brought you b--uh, I hear in your voice a passion for your farm--

REED: --yeah--

ARD: --and the way you grew up. Is that kinda the reason that you came back?

REED: Yeah. That's part--I have five children. And I think being in a rural atmosphere benefitted me a great deal. And really, I wanted to get my children under that--to have that type of experience, to experience the required work ethic it takes. Uh, I had chores I had to do every day. I mean, I understood, when I got off that bus, I had to, I had to bring in coal. Because, uh, we 01:19:00heated our home with a stove. And I had to fill five-gallon coal buckets and bring them in. That was one of my responsibilities. Had to make sure all the trash was out. I had to make sure--as I got, uh, o--older, I had to make sure that the ice was cut on the pond, to the cows could have water. I had to feed the cattle, every morning, every night, you know. Those were things that I felt benefitted me, uh, as years went by. And I want my kids to have that experience, as well. And so my wife and I--and she's from Glasgow. So she wasn't from the city either, even though she grew up in town.

ARD: Uh--

REED: --uh, we wanted to have that type of atmosphere. That, coupled with the fact that her parents were becoming elderly and ill and feeble, made us want to sell in any area that was sort of a between point. Uh, and Magnolia's forty-five minutes from Glasgow and fifty-five minutes or so from, uh, from Louisville. So that was a good in-between point. So we decided to settle there. We tried to buy the old farm I grew up on, first.

ARD: Uh--

REED: --and I told you that fell through. Then we ended u--when that didn't happen, we still c--t--start looking. "Let's try and get a place that's--where I 01:20:00can comfortably drive to Louisville every day and work and you can co--go see your family every day.

ARD: Uh--

REED: --so that's how we settle on that. Plu--and we wanted to be rural, because we want our kids to experience that a--that type of atmosphere.

ARD: Uh, uh, thank you for sharing that.

REED: Yeah.

ARD: You also shared that, while you were at law school, you sat down with some of the, the leaders and talked a little bit about the recruitment.

REED: Uh--

ARD: --so this next question probably won't surprise you. But I don't want to, I don't want to put words in your mouth. But would it surprise you to hear that the number of African Americans in the legal field has remained relatively unchanged?

REED: No. It wouldn't surprise me at all. Uh, I think, if you look overall, there's been a plateauing, if you would, of, uh, uh, African American going into professional type settings.

M1: Uh--

REED: It's kinda troubling. I think there's a generation that's behind me--one 01:21:00of the things that, for years, you--that was drilled into your psyche, if you're African American, was the key to success was education. I think that was just drilled. Uh, my parents, it was drilled into them. Uh, my parents drilled it into me. But there's a new generation, who questions, questions that thought and question whether that's really important. And there's a whole segment of young people who are disengaged, I think, from the day-to-day happenings in our society--that's sort of troubling to me. Uh, you know, I can remember my grandfather--the news came on. You didn't bother him. He w--he watched the news. My father would read the morning paper every morning. I look at the funnies. You 01:22:00know, uh, there was an engagement, uh, an investment in knowing the day--current affairs. But you were to ask young people today key things about what's going on in our society, they can't tell ya--black or white. There's a disengagement, uh, from h--a--and thought process that it's not relevant to their lives. And that includes education. So, you know, I'm not surprised by hearing that statistic, at all. As a matter of fact, it's an enrollment statistic. And I think it comes with just a devaluation of how important education is. Uh, and it's devalued now. I think there's a "So what?"

M1: --uh--

REED: "Who cares? Uh, how's it gonna benefit me?" You know? "I'm go--I'm, uh, I'm gonna make my hip-hop. And uh, I'm gonna make it big that way. I don't have to go through--" "But, you know, the chance of you doing that, son's, not go--" You know. No, they don't see that. "I'm gonna make it. And I don't need to spend 01:23:00all these years learning this stuff." Uh, that's, unfortunately, large portion of our society now. Uh, society's changed.

ARD: So do you have any big ideas about how to turn that around?

REED: Yeah. Uh, I think the first thing you gotta do is make current affairs relevant to you. I still believe that people get involved with things they have a vested interested in, that they feel like, uh, it's gonna affect them. Uh, I still think that. So I think that's one of things you have to do, is you gotta make it--you gotta make these young people understand how important this is for them. Uh, things have a way of cycling around. You know, wha--no matter what your philosophy is, if you look over the nat--the history of this, country, you'll see swings. Because nothing is gonna work like you want it to work. Uh, you go from a, uh, liberal bent to a progre--a progressive bent to a 01:24:00conservative bent. And then none of it really works. The great s--slowly but surely goes back and forth. And you got these flow and ebbs. And, uh, I, I think, at some point in time, I'd like to believe that young people are gonna realize how important education is, to be involved in our society, to, to take hold, and not when you're no longer twenty but now you're forty but when you're twenty. And, uh, uh--but it's gonna take another generation. Because, uh, the generation that's behind us, uh, I don't know that they feel that way.

M1: Uh--

REED: --now, I've seen too many thirty-five-year-old w--wo--men and women who, uh, are parting with their children. That don't look good on you anymore, you know. (laughs)

M1: Uh--

REED: --you don't need to do that. But, uh, you know, uh, uh, I guess there's a whole, there's a whole generation of kids who had kids and they didn't ever 01:25:00learn not to be a kid. Uh, and, to be frank with you, there used to be a penalty for being a kid. Uh, you don't eat.

M1: Uh, uh--

REED: --you don't have basics in life. Y--y--you don't get to do this. You don't get to do that. Uh, there's--uh, you know, that John Smith rule doesn't apply anymore.

M1: Uh--

REED: John Smith, do you remember what he did, and when all the folks--the noblemen didn't want to work? Uh, "I'm a nobleman. I don't get my hands dirty." And finally said "Okay, fine. Uh, you don't work, you don't eat." Uh, an--and we've got some of that in our society now. And we gotta figure out a way to, uh, uh, to make sure that there's a vested interest in har--work ethic, uh, education, uh, character. Uh, y--you notice the folks who get the most, uh--uh, seems to win are those who have the lowest form of character? You know, more and 01:26:00more, uh, that's happening. There's an award for--uh, you watch these reality show. The folks who are the most outrageous and crazy are the ones who's getting the most notoriety and the ones who are getting paid the most, et cet--uh, something wrong with all that, you know? I mean, uh, what's that Jersey thing, years ago? I can't remember her name now.

ARD: Uh--

REED: --but, anyway, she got all this notoriety and all she was doing was just being a fool, you know. And I'd think, Why is this person getting so much? And that seems to be what's happening more and more. And, and the more outrageous you are, the more notoriety you have, i.e., the more fame ya get, i.e., the more income you get. Uh, something's wrong with all that. And so my kid's impressionable, see that, and say, "Hey, I can make more money if I up that a little bit." And--you know?--in the real world--as you and I both know, that's not how the real world normally works. It works for that individual. Every one of that person, there's 100,000 who couldn't make it that way, and didn't make it that way. So the short answer is I think we got to --

M1: --uh--

REED: --reward those who work hard and, uh, play by the rules, do the right 01:27:00things and got to find a way that those who don't do that don't get the rewards or the notoriety. Uh, everybody wants to be--everybody wants to be on Instagram now and Twitter, whatever that is. (ARD laughs) So--

ARD: --that's a--those are some very wise words.

REED: Oh, uh--

ARD: --uh, what additional wise words would you give yourself, if you were speaking to a younger version of you?

REED: Uh, if I were speaking to s--younger version--uh, that's a good question. I think the thing that I would do, if I can go back and talk to me twenty years ago--

M1: --uh--

REED: --twenty-five, thirty years ago, is to say, "Make sure that you cont--consistent live by what you say. And never stop reevaluating yourself. 01:28:00Never just assume anything. That you reevaluate and you take a look. And that you've developed a core group of values. And you make sure that you m--remain true to that core group. Because it's so easy to get off track, if you don't." And, uh, I know there's more than one occa--I've gotten off track. But I think what brought me back to center, when I was--if I'm back at center, is the way I was raised. The problem is today's society, uh, that, that last generation wasn't raised that way. And so how d--what are they gonna turn to? What are they gonna go back to? What prodigal son types--? They--the prodigal son did ha--was, uh--you know the story of the prodigal son? He was a sh--was raised with a certain level of values. A--and the end of the day, he would turn back to those values. But what happens if he wasn't raised with 'em? What does he turn to 01:29:00then? That's what I'm concerned about, now in today's society. There's no baseline of--to--and the end of the day, you go back to this. Because, you know, went out there and did this--and this, that and--

M1: --uh--

REED: --really was against my raising and it didn't work out very well to me. And I know what I was supposed to do. And, you know, let me try back to what I know I'm supposed to do, because that's what I was told to do, that's what I was taught to do, and it worked for my father, my father's father. Let me see if it's gonna work for me. What if it never was there, to begin with?

ARD: Yeah.

REED: And, see, there's a whole lot of young men and young women l--out there like that, that didn't--just doesn't have that. They didn't have that core that was developed within them, because of their family. Uh, that's a scary thought. So when they get out there, there's nothing to go back to. There's no, there's no life raft out there for them. That is a great concern to me, because I see too many people like--and I see too many young people who are lost. And I see too many parents who are powerless. Uh, I have a debate with my brethren on the 01:30:00bench, you know. I told--at the last meeting, there was a presentation given about, uh, truancy and status offenses and whether or not we should incarcerate kids or not incarcerate kids because of truancy. It's a big--raised ar--you hear about--you read the paper, you know it's a big issue in Kentucky, right now.

M1: S--

REED: --my position is, uh, "Good question." Understand both sides of the issue, but don't--uh, and, if you want to take status offense away from courts, outta the court system, I have no problem with that. Run away. Sta--you run away--beyond control. Uh, and you think of what--I want you to listen to what I'm just mentioning. Runaway. Beyond control of parents. Beyond the--trol of schools. Truancy. Those are the four primary things that we're dealing with, when we talk about status offenses. All those are parental related, every one of 01:31:00them. You've asked us to step in and be the parents of these children, whenever we deal with these issues. Uh, if you're asking us to be the parents to these children, why are you taking aw--the capacity for us to discipline 'em?

M1: Yeah.

REED: I have no problem, if you don't want us to discipline kids. Then don't ask us to be the parents either. Uh, do I think you be, uh--that you put a kid in detention, when he's mentally ill? Absolutely not. What good would it do? Do I think you need to put a k--a kid in detention because you got a bad parent or a pare--the parent doesn't have a clue? The answer is no. Do I think you need to put a--you put a kid--uh, kid who's a real bad actor and has no direction whatsoever and, and, uh, he--there's no discipline within this kid? Absolutely. So all these stories about how unsuccessful detention is for the--some of these kids, I'm thinking, Why are you putting 'em in detention?--my first thought. That's, uh--I said, "Never to put a kid--detention is crazy. Put the kid 01:32:00in--detention all the time is crazy." There's got to be a case-by-case review of each child. Uh, little Billy--

M1: --uh--

REED: --who's got severe mental illness, don't put him in detention. That's crazy.

M1: Uh--

REED: --uh, what's it gonna do? Nothing! Poor Becky, whose mom and dad don't have a clue and, uh, and they're preventing the kid from going to school--because they're trying to make sure the kid's ill, when the kid's, "I'm fine." "No, you're not. You're still sick." "No, Mom, uh--" "No, you're not. Uh, I c--I look at your eye. You're si--you're staying home." "But, Mom, I want to go to school." That's not little Bill--that's not her fault. But--Mom and Dad ain't telling me nothing. They ain't care. "Why won't you go to school?" "Well, you can cry all you want. I ain't doing it." That works for that kid. So you gotta really, really pick the kid. So I said that at the last symposium. And they looked at me, you know. I sai--uh, "This--really, you gotta--" I said, uh, 01:33:00"Success can be--is only--is--how you succee--uh, should be measured by, uh, what's the outcome." I s-- "If you imagine success by the attention you have, I don't think that's a measure of success. The measure success is how successful that kid w--as becomes an adult." The same in the criminal system. Is he employed? Is he going to college? Is he a member of our society, contributing to our society? That's success. That's how you measure success. It's long-term. Do you see what you did, along the path here--and, at the end of the day, did that have a, uh, positive impact on his life? Like the kid I was mentioning to ya, that, that does well n--in life now. What do you think his outcome woulda been, had he not got his high school diploma? You think woulda been the same? Kinda doubt it.

M1: Uh--

REED: --so you really, really got to pick and choose. And you gotta be smart about it. But I do nee--understand the need to make sure that things are done 01:34:00the right way. Uh, so I don't know. But I wou--I would tell kids, uh, r--reexamine, to come with a core group of values. And if you don't have a, a core group, look at successful people. Look at folks who are well respected in their communities or in their--in their job f--whatever it may be. Usually, almost all those folks have six or seven core things, that are very similar to each other. A value on hard work.

M1: Uh--

REED: A value on integrity. A value on this or a value on that. That's, uh, pretty universal. I don't care if you're Steve Jobs or you're, uh, whomever--those w--Steven Kubby, uh. Very, very core themes, that is common to everyone who's successful. Develop those an--and--uh, you know?--adopt those and 01:35:00live by them. Uh, evaluate yours--make sure follow, uh--uh, you're living by 'em. And I'm just about relatively sure you're gonna be successful, if you do. But, uh, on the other hand, if you don't do those things, you're probably gonna be a failure, in some form or another. So that's what I would tell people.

ARD: Those are some good words of advice.

REED: Yeah.

ARD: Is there anything that, um, you wanted to talk about, that we did not touch upon with the questions?

REED: You know, I think we went back and forth on a number of things. Uh, I would like to tell--say tha--I would like for young people to reach out and stretch themselves and realize that, uh, you can do whatever you want to do. This country and our society has developed to a point where the only thing that really can stop you from really w--doing what you want, the end of the day, is 01:36:00you, the way ya think, the way you carry yourself. Uh, I tell people this all the time. There are so few people who really want to work now. That if you really, really want to work, not only will you get a job. You'll succeed. Y--you'll prosper. Because there are so many that don't want to. Uh, I got a great economi--supply and demand, you know? It's, it's--it really supply and demand. There's a whole lot of demand and little supply. And therefore, you can command some things. Uh, I guarantee ya, if you do what your boss says you do and you show up on Monday morning, after you've been paid on Friday afternoon, twenty minutes early and you give him 100 percent, through your eight-hour day, boy, you're gonna be okay. Because there are so many folks, they get paid on Friday, you don't see 'em anymore. Uh, I don't know. So that's kinda how I feel.

ARD: Well, thank you, so much. It's been a pleasure talking with you.

REED: It's been a interesting discussion. I had no idea where we were going. And I guess we rambled a bit. But I, I hope that you got what you were looking for.

ARD: I think we did. Thank you.

REED: Uh, thank you.

[End of interview.]